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Analysing Xbox's latest 'Reset' move with Christopher Dring | Bonus Ramblings · Respec: Video Game Ramblings

0:03
Hello everyone and welcome to this special edition
0:07
of the Respec Ramblings podcast. If you can hear
0:10
a little background noise, it's because we are
0:13
sat in an airport lounge waiting to take off
0:16
from Tokyo Haneda Airport, having finished Tokyo
0:19
Game Show. And we is myself, Alex Donaldson,
0:22
and Mr. Christopher Dring of the game business.
0:26
We've been obviously hanging around at Tokyo
0:28
Game Show, but while we've been here... Some
0:33
stuff's gone on. It's a tale of two weeks, right?
0:36
Last week, Xbox was in the news because they
0:38
were parading Kojima out like a prized pony.
0:41
And now this week, we've spent £400 million on
0:47
Kojima. We need to save that money elsewhere.
0:50
Well, yeah, you tell me as the business journalist.
0:53
I think I know the answer. Obviously, they had
0:56
all the cuts before, but that was only a portion
0:59
of the cuts. They're about half, yeah. Yeah.
1:02
And so they've still got how much to make, roughly?
1:04
Well, it's weird, actually. They said they're
1:06
going to make 3 ,200 cuts. They made 1 ,600 back
1:10
in July. So the idea is it's got 1 ,600 more
1:13
to go. They made 268 this week, or they're making
1:16
268. But actually, they said in their press release
1:19
we're two -thirds of the way through. Now, if
1:21
you do your maths, that doesn't quite add up.
1:24
which maybe they're going to make fewer cuts.
1:26
I think what's interesting is that they're obviously
1:29
counting the cuts they're making at Halo Studios
1:31
in those cuts. They've also just announced they're
1:33
building a new team to make Halo. So it's one
1:36
of those where there's cuts in some ways, but
1:39
there's hiring going on elsewhere. And so, yeah,
1:43
they're still probably got, they say they've
1:47
got a third left to go. Yeah. And so let's actually
1:49
just quickly run down it, right? What has actually
1:51
changed? So there's studios moving into other
1:57
studios, right? So Rare, World's Edge, who are
2:00
the Age of Empires guys, are going into Activision,
2:04
as is the Halo franchise. But what's happening
2:08
is 343 will remain, not 343, Halo Studios, the
2:13
studio formerly, the artist formerly known as
2:15
343, will remain for community support and support
2:19
an existing game. Yeah, updating Master Chief
2:20
Collection and that kind of stuff, yeah. Yeah,
2:22
but... The new Halo game will be made by a new
2:25
studio purpose -built Activision. Yeah. Which
2:28
is, you know, I actually think that bit of news
2:31
is like, okay, makes sense. I think Bungie left
2:34
at sort of the right time and 343 was sort of
2:37
tasked with taking that forward. And it's really
2:38
hard to take something forward that wasn't yours
2:40
in the first place. You have to work out fan
2:41
expectations and that kind of thing. And then
2:43
Halo Infinite was a miss for them. whatever,
2:48
culturally or the wrong people or Xbox strategy
2:52
shifts or whatever means that they just haven't
2:53
delivered. And, you know, I said this, I've said
2:57
this many times, actually, I said the whole process
3:00
of Microsoft buying Activision Blizzard, Activision
3:02
Blizzard from a business point of view, I'm not
3:05
saying I like them more, but from a business
3:07
point of view, Activision Blizzard is a better
3:09
publisher. than xbox it's a better games company
3:11
than xbox i actually was you know i thought to
3:14
myself when activision blizzard come in is it
3:16
a case of xbox by activision blizzard or is that
3:18
taking over xbox and of course that isn't what
3:20
happened but there's an element of would halo
3:24
be a more successful ip under actors that's not
3:27
necessarily it would be but um because Destiny
3:32
didn't really work out for Activision in a significant
3:34
way. It was obviously more successful under Activision
3:36
than it was under Sony, but it didn't particularly
3:40
work out. And Call of Duty is in a bit of a doldrums
3:43
at the moment. I'm not saying that Activision
3:45
is infallible, but they deliver their games on
3:47
time, deliver their games on budget, and that's
3:51
not something you can say about Xbox's games.
3:54
So I did think that you might start seeing...
3:57
uh their superior publishing operations taking
3:59
over more of their games um but yeah i it's it's
4:04
halo hasn't worked out for xbox and so they're
4:08
they're giving it to a studio a company that
4:10
that knows what it's doing doesn't mean it'll
4:12
be a hit but it's uh it's worth a try i'd say
4:14
yeah i mean we we were walking through the airport
4:16
right and i said that The thing is, there's many
4:19
ways to apportion the blame. And obviously, I
4:21
think that there is a certain point when you
4:23
have to say, well, who greenlit these games?
4:25
Who playtested them and said, yep, that's ready
4:28
for release? Infinite, I think, is a tremendously
4:31
interesting game. It takes a really big design
4:35
swing, which doesn't quite work out. But also,
4:39
the bottom line perhaps is, obviously, all the
4:42
job losses are terrible. However, with that said,
4:45
it can't be denied that... In the years that
4:48
343 slash studios had control of Halo, it went
4:52
from being one of the most important franchises
4:55
in the industry to becoming a bit of a blip on
4:57
the radar. I mean, you are right. I do think
5:00
there are people out there who will say Reach
5:02
is the best one and stuff, but I do think, I
5:04
don't know how much of that was like Bungie getting
5:08
out at the right time. perhaps Halo losing a
5:10
step already. How much of that was just Bungie
5:12
was checked out by the time they were making
5:13
Reach? That was the game they had to make as
5:15
part of the divorce. I just think Halo 3 came
5:18
out and it was the biggest entertainment launch
5:20
of all time, right? At that point, it was bigger
5:22
than GTA, that launch. It was bigger than anything
5:25
that had come before it. And it was a huge success.
5:27
And then, of course, what came out two months
5:29
later? Call of Duty. for modern warfare and so
5:35
and that I think changed the game in terms of
5:37
who was the king in the shooter genre not that
5:39
Call of Duty was pretty big at that point as
5:40
well but it was like it was um and then Call
5:42
of Duty became the thing and Call of Duty's in
5:44
the level of investment in Call of Duty skyrocketed
5:47
from that point on and Halo was sort of left
5:48
in the dust because then it's the company that
5:50
was in charge of Halo moved on and made their
5:52
own thing and so I just think it yeah it got
5:54
left behind I don't really think there's any
5:56
necessarily getting back to that point for Halo.
5:59
I think it's a legacy franchise now, but it doesn't
6:02
mean it can't have a strong position. Stronger
6:03
than it is today. Yeah, I think of Halo now in
6:05
the same way I think of something like Castlevania.
6:07
Which is sort of correct, but then again, you
6:08
can buy it, it just may, it's proof that it's
6:10
really old. But that's probably when you add
6:11
it up. Halo is probably as old now as House of
6:13
A was when it became like the PlayStation 2 era,
6:15
or whatever. Yeah, I don't think Halo being the
6:17
Sonic Galaxy game of 2007 and 2009 or whatever
6:19
is, I don't think that's happening. But I think
6:21
Halo becoming a franchise, a certain shooter
6:24
audience, I think that can happen. And I think
6:28
Activision are very smart. But it's just a real
6:31
shame that it didn't work out for Halo Studios'
6:32
team. You know, you say lots of things can go
6:35
wrong in development. It has nothing to do with
6:37
the talent of the people working there. But not
6:41
just that, you know, Rare going under Activision,
6:43
World's Edge going under Activision. That one's
6:48
an interesting one, World's Edge, because obviously
6:50
Activision just do not have a pedigree in PCRTS
6:56
at all. But then again, where else would they
6:58
go? Blizzard. That's true. Yeah, they do make
7:01
Warcraft. That is correct. Yeah, I mean, yeah,
7:05
the Rare thing is interesting. Obviously, you
7:08
have an enormous amount of knowledge and love
7:13
of that company, as do I. Rare's a tough one.
7:19
Because I think Rare's a unique company developer
7:22
within the Microsoft ecosystem in that it's basically
7:24
the developer, and it was for a very long time,
7:27
the developer that makes the new stuff, the thing
7:31
you haven't seen before. And whether or not,
7:32
you know, people talk about how the N64 heyday
7:35
when they were putting out two big games a year,
7:37
obviously it's a different world today. And the
7:40
games they're putting out don't have the same
7:41
impact. But even if you go right back to Grabbed
7:43
by the Ghoulies was very different to everything
7:46
that Xbox else was. everything xbox is putting
7:49
putting out in 2003 it goes all the way through
7:52
viva pinata obviously they led the connect sports
7:54
thing they live connect with that um cfp uses
7:57
i would actually go to say cfp is the best game
7:59
microsoft has put out xbox game studios anyway
8:01
has put out in 10 years and because i think it's
8:05
excellent but it's also strikingly original and
8:08
um and and you don't get they don't have a studio
8:12
They bought things like Double Fine who do that
8:14
on an independent level, but they don't, the
8:16
Xbox never had that studio. I've had this view
8:19
and I know that some of our friends, I don't
8:21
really think Sony and Xbox should be making indie
8:23
games. Like I don't, I think they should be making
8:26
the ambitious stuff. You know, Sea of Thieves
8:28
is a game that um needs to show that you know
8:31
i think xbox first party studios playstation
8:33
first party studios nintendo first party studios
8:34
should be making stuff that shows the way for
8:37
the rest of the industry who they can take they've
8:39
got the hardware they've got they've got that
8:40
they've got that ability you know they don't
8:42
have to pay the store fees um their games aren't
8:45
just about selling loads and loads of copies
8:46
of individual games also about bringing audiences
8:48
into platforms And they can take these sort of
8:51
more experimental things that target new audiences,
8:53
widen the market. That was the dream of Sea of
8:56
Thieves. I talked about this. I used to do these
8:57
Sea of Thieves panels at EGX in London. And when
9:00
I did these EGX panels with Sea of Thieves, I
9:02
was always amazed at how many families were there.
9:05
So the people that were playing Sea of Thieves
9:08
were mum, dad, and the kids. And I thought, that's
9:12
an interesting live service model, a game where
9:15
the people playing it are... you know, families.
9:18
And I just, um, and I, and I thought that that's
9:20
nobody, not those games exist. Family games exist,
9:23
of course, but it was like, I thought that was
9:25
an interesting approach, um, to that game. But,
9:29
um, uh, so I think they have a unique role within
9:34
Xbox, but whether or not Xbox feel they need
9:36
that. I don't know. We don't quite know what
9:40
this Activision takeover Rare looks like. Is
9:43
it just Rare is now the reporting line goes to
9:45
Activision? Well, but it's like you said, Activision
9:48
tend to deliver games on time and on budget,
9:50
right? And Rare is a studio that has, even in
9:53
the Nintendo days, enjoyed quite a lot of latitude
9:56
to experiment and take time and do what they
9:59
want. And I wonder if now it becomes like...
10:03
You certainly never get an Everwild situation
10:05
and an Activision studio. Oh, Activision will
10:07
be a lot more brutal, yeah. Yeah. But I mean,
10:09
you know, I know a little bit about what Rare
10:11
is working on or had been working on. I'm hoping
10:13
they're still working on it. And I'm like, the
10:15
plan for that is a lot more... I think that'll
10:20
work. And I think they'll... But yeah, it is...
10:24
It's not that Activision doesn't incubate ideas.
10:26
Let's not forget how many Call of Duty spin -offs
10:27
and stuff that we've heard about down the years
10:29
that have got cancelled or postponed. But yeah,
10:34
it's a... And Blizzard's sort of connected to
10:38
Activision as well, and there are quite loads
10:39
of these examples. And Activision, of course,
10:42
has been a pretty good, I think, on the whole,
10:46
steward of Crash and Spyro. So then that raises
10:50
a question for characters like Crash and things
10:53
like that. That's the thing. At the time of recording
10:57
this, I don't know any more. But my hope is that
11:00
Rare is still being able to do the unique and
11:02
weird stuff. But there is a part of me that fears
11:05
that they've just got a Sea of Thieves maintenance
11:07
team now looking after that game, or maybe maintenance
11:10
team is a bit of a harsh term, but just a small
11:12
Sea of Thieves team operating on the game while
11:14
the... Well, Activision will take the IP and
11:17
farm it out to other companies, which would be,
11:20
it would be a shame. Well, maybe, but I hope
11:26
Rare, yeah, I hope Rare continues on. But if,
11:29
I hope Rare, best case scenario, right, Rare
11:33
continues on. But also there is a further silver
11:37
lining, which is that. Maybe if Rare doesn't
11:40
want to make a Banjo -Kazooie game, but now they're
11:42
inside Activision who have been successful in
11:45
signing other studios to develop successful Crash
11:48
Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon games, maybe that's
11:50
what happens. I mean, I could see a world in
11:52
which Toys for Bob finishes that Spyro game and
11:56
rolls straight on into a Banjo game now at this
12:00
stage. Yeah, yes. But I mean, I'm obviously thinking
12:02
from a Rare studio point of view, that team there
12:04
makes... very rare like live service games right
12:07
the people that team is what they do you wouldn't
12:10
give that team banjo to make or perfect art to
12:12
make because that's not that isn't their expertise
12:14
um but um yeah possibly i don't know if it really
12:19
fits and who knows you end up you know i'm very
12:23
curious actually about what this new xbox structure
12:27
when it's all when all the dust is settled what
12:29
their attitude is going to be to ip like we know
12:31
that um that he'd pitched a perfect dark game
12:34
for instance and that got summarily dismissed
12:37
but but i felt it interesting to take two deal
12:40
to buy perfect dark and the initiative fell through
12:42
over the perfect dark rights so that was what
12:45
i was told is that right i was told it was around
12:48
the ip ownership okay i just i think So maybe
12:53
there's truth to both, but I think day one Game
12:55
Pass was also a red line that couldn't be crossed.
12:57
And I think they were like, which now that wouldn't
13:00
be an issue. State of Decay 3, I felt notable
13:04
there that that is staying in Game Pass day one.
13:07
Yeah. And so they've got a new publisher, which
13:08
they haven't announced who that is. No. But they
13:13
are surviving independently. Well, at a smaller
13:17
scale, whether that's it. Yeah. Not so good for
13:21
Ninja Theory, who Microsoft announced that...
13:25
Too expensive. Yeah, that they had two separate
13:28
agreements to sell the studio that have since
13:31
fallen through. And that means consultation is
13:34
now beginning. Now that's UK employment slang
13:37
for we've got pretty good employment laws. So
13:40
if you're American, they can't just lay people
13:42
off with five minutes notice. Consultation is
13:44
basically... the formal process to close it all
13:47
down, which means everyone has another month
13:50
or six weeks or whatever of wages before it goes.
13:52
But it sounds like that is done, which is crazy,
13:55
right? Because that new Hellblade game was announced
13:58
at Summer Games Fest and now it's never going
14:00
to come out. Yeah. Well, I think obviously a
14:04
lot of people point to the recent history that
14:06
games haven't delivered on a commercial or critical
14:08
level. And the studio is an expensive studio
14:11
from what I understand. However... I speak into
14:14
people who have followed the journey of that
14:16
studio and where they're at. That team's been
14:18
working together for a while now. There's a bit,
14:21
there's a bit, but everybody who speak to me
14:23
who worked with that studio tell me they're swinging.
14:26
Their next game is going to, is going to be great,
14:29
right? It's, everything's clicking together.
14:33
Everything's flowing in a way that, you know,
14:35
it takes a little while. That's the reason why
14:36
people forget about this with studios is sometimes
14:39
they get better. Do you remember Blooper Team
14:41
used to put out pretty rubbish horror games?
14:43
And they moved on to putting out pretty average
14:44
horror games. And now they come to putting out
14:46
pretty good horror games. And that's what happens
14:49
when you work together and you train up and you
14:51
sort of learn and you develop with each other.
14:53
I mean... Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying
14:56
any of these games are crap, but I don't think
14:57
there's a stronger story in the universe than
15:00
Witcher 1, Witcher 2, Witcher 3, Cyberpunk. Yeah.
15:02
And I bet Witcher 4 is going to be great as well.
15:04
Like that's a studio that really leveled up over
15:06
time. And yeah, this is the element that, I don't
15:13
know, something crazy could happen in consultation.
15:15
Oh, look, they're still looking for buyers and
15:17
they'll still be open to offers as they come
15:19
through and there's still a few months left.
15:20
But the truth is they've gone through this big
15:22
process, pitched it around. There's two people
15:24
who expressed interest. They got down to the
15:26
sort of, you know, brass tacks of sort of just
15:29
going, okay, the details and it just fell through.
15:33
And similarly, it's going to be like no movement
15:36
on Arkane, Leon either. Yeah, but they've got
15:39
the French union laws and stuff to sort of work
15:41
through as well on that. So it's a little different.
15:45
It's a lot more of a slower process. So I wouldn't
15:48
necessarily read too much into that at this point.
15:50
You know, we had that, the former, was it Harvey
15:52
Smith? Was it Harvey Smith that tweeted? Yeah,
15:54
yeah. Let me know the price or whatever it was.
15:56
Or the other guy, I've got his name, Ralph. Yeah.
16:00
So, you know, there might be some interest there.
16:04
I think that's an interesting one because they
16:05
put out, you know, generally good games. Well,
16:08
also there's Disney skin in that game as well,
16:09
right? In that studio to some degree. Yeah. I
16:13
don't think Blade's an appealing project, though.
16:15
I just think as an IP. Well, unfortunately, when
16:17
they announced that IP, Blade was going to be
16:19
a big character in the MCU. And now that film's
16:21
stalled out. And it hasn't even stalled out in
16:23
a casual way. It's burned out. Like, you've got
16:28
Kevin Feige calling the Blade movie his greatest
16:31
failure. And Marshall Ali, you know, two -time
16:34
Oscar winner who they'd cast as Blade, literally
16:37
saying, yeah, it is his biggest failure. So that's
16:40
what the situation is for that IP and that character
16:43
right now. Other stuff in this, though, this
16:47
isn't very surprising, but obviously, so what
16:50
Microsoft had essentially... almost closed turn
16:53
10 studios who made the mainline traditional
16:56
racer for its motorsport games all that was left
17:00
there was a i believe that like a a relatively
17:03
small team that was working on forza tech which
17:06
is the engine and obviously they were then providing
17:08
their expertise to playground who were making
17:11
forza horizon and fable in that engine um turn
17:15
10 will now um merge into Playground. What a
17:19
change. It was like, what, 10 years ago, Playground
17:23
Games was a support studio. It's not called a
17:24
federal support studio. They reported to Turn
17:28
10. They were Turn 10's responsibility and now
17:31
Playground is the one. It's sort of crazy just
17:35
from the perspective of... I wonder what that
17:37
means. Like, is that... Is that Turn 10 studio
17:41
still going to exist in the US or are they just
17:43
going to like uproot and offer the people their
17:45
jobs at Playground proper? Like, do you keep
17:49
that building? Is that really a euphemism for
17:52
just laying everyone left at Turn 10 off and
17:54
moving those jobs over to Playground? Well, I
17:58
think you want people that know the tech. Well,
18:01
yeah, you try and move, you try and keep some
18:02
of them, right? Try and get some of them to physically
18:04
move. Although, I was going to say, I don't know
18:06
who'd want to move to Britain, but to be fair.
18:09
If you're an American, maybe you do it right
18:10
now. I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily assume
18:15
they'd just move the entire tech team. I think
18:18
that would be quite disruptive. So I think that's
18:21
looking more like a name change. In a similar
18:23
way, Microsoft Casual Games going into King,
18:27
you might not know necessarily what that is,
18:29
but Microsoft Casual Games makes shit like Solitaire
18:32
and Minesweeper. And I don't know if you even
18:34
realize this, but like if you go and download
18:36
the Microsoft casual games, that's literally
18:37
what they call it. Version of those games on
18:39
your phone. They're like fully integrated into
18:42
the Xbox ecosystem. You can get a solitaire achievement
18:44
and stuff like that. So that's going into King.
18:48
That's a natural fit. And then there's the Obsidian,
18:51
Bethesda stuff. Yeah. So Bethesda. It's an obvious
18:54
fit. It's an obvious fit. Bethesda to take over.
18:58
So Obsidian will now answer to. Bethesda. I've
19:03
seen some pretty intense reaction to this on
19:05
the RPG socials, but I think it was pretty...
19:09
At the end of the day, when the previous round
19:11
of cuts happened, Obsidian sort of ceased to
19:14
be its own entity anyway. They made Grounded
19:17
and... They made Grounded, which a lot of that
19:20
is now being made by others. And the Fallout
19:23
game. Yeah, they got punted to a Fallout game.
19:27
I said this at the time when they bought Bethesda.
19:29
For Microsoft Book Professor, I was like, what
19:31
do you need Obsidian for? And I know that's a
19:32
really unfair thing. And they're different studios.
19:34
They do different things. But I think in terms
19:36
of where they fit in the audience demographic,
19:40
they're very similar. And I think at the moment,
19:43
Professor probably needs a talented team that
19:46
can work on some of their IP that they're taking
19:49
far too long to make. And I think that works.
19:52
And bringing them in, integrating them a little
19:55
bit more. Culturally, it's going to have an impact,
19:58
I think. That's the thing, you know, we talk
19:59
about, all of this makes sense on paper. Yeah.
20:01
But the reality is you're talking about people
20:02
and you're talking about cultures and every studio
20:06
will have its own culture and its own people.
20:08
And will Bethesda be able to maintain what it
20:11
is that makes Obsidian? Can the challenges, and
20:14
this is always hard, far harder to do, and in
20:16
fact it fails more often than it succeeds, can
20:18
Bethesda make Obsidian both more successful and
20:21
better whilst maintaining what makes them unique
20:23
and precious at the moment, right? That's hard.
20:27
Yeah. And it's going to be hard for Apple. And
20:29
maintaining the people. Yeah. You know, not pissing
20:31
off the people who have made. It has to be fair.
20:35
Obsidian make some great games. It's just they've
20:38
not had that big audience cut through. And so,
20:40
you know, you hope that this isn't a series of
20:43
events that leads to anyone major leaving Obsidian.
20:48
But we will see. Yeah. They're not, you know,
20:50
their games are like. seven and eights, right?
20:53
They're not nines and tens, which is what Bethesda
20:55
tend to do. You could argue Starfield didn't
20:57
do that. But anyway, I think it does make sense.
21:02
I think in time, I think in exile might end up
21:05
fitting under Bethesda. Well, I was going to
21:06
say, I found it very interesting that they haven't
21:09
been moved at all. And I'm wondering like...
21:11
Is this about they're not moving anyone organisationally
21:14
who's got a game due in the relative immediate
21:17
future? Yeah, well, yeah. So there were three
21:18
studios that haven't moved. So Playground, InXR
21:22
and Coalition all have games coming out in the
21:24
next 12 months, 12 -ish months. And so, you know,
21:28
let's not unsettle that and get those games launched.
21:32
And I think you think, when you think of Playground,
21:35
could that, that could, you know, actually InXR
21:38
seems like an obvious fit for Bethesda, but...
21:41
I'm not quite the playground. And Exile could
21:44
also go to Blizzard, to be fair. I mean, but
21:45
yeah, Bethesda's a more natural fit. Well, yeah,
21:49
because it's got that sort of Dishonored -y vibe.
21:51
They've got the RPG history as well. So there's
21:52
that. But you'd end up with a lot in Bethesda
21:55
in that sense, because I think actually Coalition
21:58
probably belongs there as well, in the sense
22:00
that the people who are publishing Doom probably
22:02
make a lot of sense to publish games. Yeah, I
22:04
don't know. Coalition, I think, again, it's a
22:06
shooter. Right? So it could fit under Activision
22:09
as well. That's one I'm not sure. I would just
22:11
flip a coin on that one. And the playground,
22:14
it feels like Activision maybe as well. Maybe.
22:18
Bless Fable's huge. And then you'd probably put
22:20
Fable under, yeah, it's like a weird studio.
22:23
Half of it you'd put under Bethesda and the other
22:25
half you'd put under Activision. Although Forza's
22:27
probably its own thing. Don't know. Put them
22:29
under Mojang. Yeah, obviously Mojang has been
22:32
left completely untouched as you would expect
22:33
because you don't mess with that. And of course,
22:37
a lot of the, one of the key decision makers
22:40
there now, right, is ex -Moyang and people do
22:43
have an affinity for the things they write as
22:45
well. Yeah, we don't need to have an affinity
22:48
not to change Moyang. It's, you know, Minecraft
22:54
is... It's a beast. And it remains one of the
23:02
most powerful video game franchises in the world.
23:04
And I don't think you change much about Call
23:06
of Duty. I mean, you certainly don't change.
23:08
They just need to get back in the saddle on that
23:10
one. That's all. I think Call of Duty might have
23:13
some slightly bigger problems in terms of competition
23:16
rather than necessarily itself. I know that it's
23:19
put out some games that have missed. They've
23:20
always done that, though. True. I think one of
23:27
the challenges for Call of Duty this year is
23:28
actually I hear Modern Warfare 4 is actually
23:30
very good. There's lots of positive noises about
23:33
it. But even now it is overshadowed by GTA 6.
23:38
Let alone, you know, people aren't talking about
23:40
it. It's a funny year this year. When you're
23:43
thinking about the games, I don't think Ocarina
23:46
of Time is overshadowed by GTA 6. doesn't target
23:49
it's got a big audience of people that isn't
23:52
GTA 6 players it obviously targets GTA 6 players
23:54
as well everybody's a GTA 6 player but like I
23:57
think Blood of the Dawnwalker and Marvel's Wolverine
24:00
they're sort of slightly overshadowed by it but
24:02
not in the same way that I think Call of Duty
24:04
is because I think Call of Duty is slap bang
24:05
that same mainstream demographic and everyone
24:10
is talking about this new GTA 6 and not talking
24:13
about this Call of Duty but you know Call of
24:15
Duty has a whole month before well three weeks
24:17
or so You have a good discount. Yeah. You wait
24:19
for some of the GTA, GTA Dust to die down. And
24:22
the shooter fans will shift around as they always
24:24
do. Yeah. So tell me from your perspective, from
24:27
the business journalist perspective, where do
24:30
you think they're at now? Do you think this,
24:32
is this a play to get stuff actually sorted or
24:36
is this a play to get stuff organized in such
24:39
a way to be spun out or what have you? No, I
24:42
think this is, I don't think this is any complicated.
24:44
Like, you know, Xbox as a business doesn't make,
24:46
its margins terrible, its profitability was poor.
24:49
So they've had to make cuts of things that wasn't
24:50
working and stuff that, you know, isn't working
24:53
as well as they should do. They're making changes.
24:55
I think it's, I don't think it's. And I think
25:00
in a way, people like Asher, Sharma and Matthew
25:03
Ball, who were not involved in the decisions
25:04
in the first place that led them here, even though
25:07
they're being very kind and diplomatic about
25:10
it, they probably feel they can just make these
25:14
quite aggressive changes. There's none of the
25:16
shame, I guess, that might feel if Phil Spencer
25:20
had to do this. Because not that I think Phil
25:24
Spencer necessarily had to feel shame, but these
25:26
are his decisions that didn't work out. yeah
25:28
and um and there's an element and then he is
25:30
the one that has to sort of tell all these people
25:32
i'm sorry out of all job this is the there's
25:34
almost a detachment from the the mistake here
25:37
the mr people that made the mistakes i don't
25:39
know matt booty is still there people that made
25:41
the mistakes aren't the same people who are having
25:43
to fix them yeah yeah it's i my main concern
25:49
now going forward is i actually think this announcement
25:53
The more it sat with me after reading it, the
25:55
more I was like, yeah, okay, all of this makes
25:57
sense. Some of it worries me a bit, but it all
25:59
makes sense. Oh, look, Xbox are in a bad spot.
26:02
Their games haven't been good enough. Their platform
26:05
is not selling. Their margins are terrible. And
26:11
they're in a bad spot. So to say that, oh, it's
26:15
all fine. It's not all fine. But we know what
26:17
the problem is. It's really not all fine. But
26:19
it's... So, yeah, I think at the moment, and
26:24
I think even they'll admit this, the chance of
26:27
failure is still higher than the chance of success.
26:30
But they had to change something, and that's
26:33
what's going on. We're watching them fight back.
26:35
And whether or not they win or not, I think,
26:37
well, I wouldn't put money on it either way at
26:40
this point. But this is them trying to, you know.
26:43
save themselves effectively? And could it be
26:45
so they could spin out and do the business? Maybe,
26:48
but ultimately they need to build a profitable,
26:49
sustainable business or it's not an option with
26:52
a stay within Microsoft or not stay within Microsoft.
26:55
Yeah, they've got to be. I just worry about,
26:57
you know, a profitable, sustainable business.
26:59
It's still a huge business and this is a lot
27:01
of cuts they still want, right? So that's my
27:03
concern even going forward from here. I worry
27:06
about where those cuts are and then how what
27:07
remains successfully functions. But I guess that's
27:11
a question for... They've got loads of other
27:14
problems. They've got the problems of the component
27:15
price. They've got a problem of Game Pass no
27:19
longer being, you know, just not being a sustainable
27:23
business. They've got the problem of their games,
27:26
just, you know, particularly their big IP, just
27:28
not connecting. And so, you know, a lot of them
27:31
are good, and they've got all sorts of challenges.
27:35
But they've got the problem of China, growth
27:37
of that. They've got the problem of the industry
27:38
stagnating. There's loads and loads of things
27:41
they've got to deal with. And, you know, but
27:44
this is, I interviewed Matthew Ball in June.
27:46
You know, he told the story of Asher called him
27:49
up and said, is it fixable? And he goes, I think
27:54
it is. And in my head when he said that, I was
27:55
picturing Doctor Strange in Avengers. Yeah, yeah,
27:58
yeah. Thinking of like the billion different
28:01
outcomes. This is the one. Yeah, I, it's. They've
28:09
got so much great stuff there to work with, but
28:12
it does seem, you know, an utter nightmare. Yeah.
28:16
But you've got to, you want to believe. You want
28:19
to believe. A competition's needed. I think PlayStation
28:21
need competition more than ever right now, frankly.
28:23
I think, but oh, look, it's a big company. They've
28:28
got some of the biggest brands in video games.
28:29
They've got some incredibly talented people.
28:31
They do have a platform with an audience, albeit
28:33
a declining one. And that's what Matthew Ball
28:38
will be looking at going and Ash Sharma will
28:39
be looking at going. There is an opportunity
28:41
here. There is a way through this maybe. But
28:46
I think the way through they were trying to do
28:47
like six months ago, which was like be a console
28:51
and a third party publisher. I think that they've
28:54
realized that's not. They've almost got to be.
28:57
They've got to lean in one direction and leaning,
29:00
not completely, you have to completely go into
29:01
one direction, but lean in one direction. I think
29:03
leaning towards the platform console side may
29:06
seem illogical to people that go, just become
29:08
a third party publisher. But I don't think Microsoft
29:10
wants a third party publisher. Microsoft are
29:12
a platform business. They want their box in their
29:13
living room. Yeah. Or their, you know, or their
29:15
service in your living room. Right. So, and I
29:17
think. uh i so i think it's it i and i think
29:21
hey from the perspective of a console industry
29:24
that wants more competition and stronger let's
29:27
not forget the console market was at its best
29:28
when 360 ps3 and we were properly duking it out
29:31
that was great yeah right all three platforms
29:34
were brilliant to be part of yeah and um are
29:37
we nice to I don't think we'll ever get back
29:39
to that point. It'd be nice to sort of head in
29:41
that direction again. Never say never. One last
29:44
question while I've got you. We have gone long,
29:45
so we'll wrap up. But I just want to ask on this
29:48
whole topic, from your perspective on the business
29:52
side, what do you think the Game Pass endgame
29:53
is? Do you think all this stuff about, you know,
29:56
more ad -supported tiers and stuff like that
29:58
is the path? Or do you think ultimately the path
30:01
is going to ultimately end in them... sort of
30:03
going game pass was an experiment it didn't really
30:05
work oh i think game pass makes too much money
30:07
from that to get to get quite to that point i
30:09
do think they'll get to a point where you know
30:11
you know they'll move towards add tears and um
30:14
and and try and extract more extract more revenue
30:17
out of it um i do think we'll probably see i
30:20
don't know if call of duty This is going to be
30:22
the only game that doesn't launch day and date
30:23
in the service. I think we might see a little
30:25
bit more of that happening as they try and make
30:28
commercial sense. They will have to make some
30:30
tough decisions on it. But they all have the
30:32
data on what the Game Pass community wants. I
30:34
think there was some statistic a while ago, and
30:36
I genuinely can't remember what it was, that
30:38
actually the people that buy the day and date
30:39
stuff is not the majority of Game Pass subscribers.
30:42
And maybe they'll make some choices around Elder
30:47
Scrolls and those sort of games. Do they go day
30:49
and date? And I think that'd be interesting to
30:51
see what they do. I do think game passers are
30:53
not proposition. We'll look, we will be weaker
30:56
and cost more, whether that cost is in subscription
31:00
costs. I'm not convinced by that, but maybe advertising
31:02
is a way to, to make that a little bit more profitable
31:06
for them. But we said, I'd love to say, I'd love
31:09
to say, I told you, I hate to say, I told you
31:11
so, but we're saying from the very beginning
31:13
that. Gamers don't play enough games to justify
31:17
a subscription on math to justify paying full
31:22
price for a subscription service because we have
31:24
hundreds of games on it. I think Strauss said
31:27
the average GTA Online player plays two new games
31:29
a year. If you're that customer, are you... Are
31:33
you going, oh, I know, I'll subscribe to a service
31:35
of 100 in it? No, you just buy the two new games.
31:37
You get the two new games you actually want.
31:39
But there is obviously a hardcore audience that
31:41
like that, but that isn't enough to sustain it.
31:43
So I think it just has to be sustainable, and
31:46
I don't think it is at the moment. Well, I will
31:48
look forward to seeing them announce what they're
31:52
actually doing with that. But yeah, thank you
31:54
so much for that. It's fascinating, as always.
31:57
Always really interesting to talk to you and
31:59
get the business perspective where we're just
32:00
on the nerdy consumer perspective. And we haven't
32:04
even touched on your first time in Turkey, but
32:07
we'll have to do something else about that. It's
32:09
been amazing. I'm glad you've enjoyed it. It's
32:11
been very tiring. I think we're all quite tired
32:14
and a bit over -liquored. And I'm looking forward
32:18
to getting home. Speaking of advertisements,
32:21
not in Game Pass, but right here, right now,
32:23
you should check out chris's stuff chris where
32:27
can i get all your you i do a i do a free um
32:31
newsletter podcast called the game business it
32:33
comes out on a tuesday comes out on a thursday
32:34
um and uh i interview big senior executives and
32:38
and video games people uh and we share data and
32:42
where the games industry is going we just read
32:43
the big interview with the ceo cd project for
32:45
instance and the boss of war dogs so bulk how
32:48
do you make war dogs that's what i do i do two
32:50
of those a week um for free comes out on a on
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a thursday and a thursday and you can go to the
32:54
game business .com stick in your email address
32:56
and you'll get you'll get it in your inbox either
32:58
in written form or podcast form or wherever you
33:00
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33:03
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33:07
focused but i think especially for the hardcore
33:10
among you many and much of our audience is it
33:12
can be a really interesting insight from a different
33:14
angle and as far as we go don't forget that you
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can subscribe to us on patreon that's patreon
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splash i suppose that's a dive of a diving board
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um yeah if you back some patreon you get bonus
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33:33
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33:36
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33:38
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33:41
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or you can just visit the website respect .net
33:56
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33:58
the normal podcast from tom and the crew um talking
34:01
about all the uh the news that happened before
34:03
these xbox xbox bombshells dropped um but yeah
34:08
that's it from us from the haneda departures
34:11
lounge Thank you for joining us. Say goodbye.
34:14
Goodbye. Until next time, everyone. See ya.