Latest / SkyTalkDoc / E264 The Truth About Cheating
Transcript
- SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Laura, welcome to the Sky Talk Doc podcast. The topic we're gonna talk about today, I feel like is one of the most important topics in relationships. It's also one of the most taboo, like one of the most uncomfortable things for people to really discuss. And, you know, over the years, 15 years as a couples therapist, I will say this is hands down the biggest topic that there is. in the world of relationships. So you are an infidelity and betrayal expert, we're going to talk all about infidelity betrayal, which is just, I'm stoked. without further ado, please share with the listeners a little bit about your background and your process and how you got into what you're doing. Lora Cheadle: Yeah, absolutely. And first, thank you so much for talking about it because you're right. It's such a taboo topic. And it's one of those things that I think so often people think, well, if I don't talk about it, it won't happen to me. And if you look at the numbers, it's far more common than we thought. And talking about it is truly the most important thing we can do. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: so many like intense emotions around it, feelings, thoughts, ⁓ also perspectives that are really different than I think the average person. ⁓ seeing kind of both the wounded warriors that show up in these infidelity situations. And I also have big feels ⁓ the digital landscape and how much it sucks people away. ⁓ is not always sex. Betrayal can be emotional. Lora Cheadle: Yes. No. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: more often than not, I think, and not only with another human. It can be emotional betrayal in so many different ways. And so, yes, please, like just dive in with all of your knowledge and all your experience because I'm sure the listeners are super stoked to hear your Lora Cheadle: Right. Hahaha! Perfect. I'm going to start with the experiential piece. am a former corporate attorney, which makes no sense. Why are you here, Laura? Well, I'm an attorney. I thought my life was really great. I worked really hard. I did things right. I thought my marriage was amazing. He worked hard. He did things right. We sacrificed. We built. After 23 years of marriage, I discovered that he had been cheating for 15 years in... with five different women in a multitude of ways, physical, emotional, online, in person, all the different things. ⁓ wrecked in a way that I didn't even understand. It would me. It was such an identity shift. Like I started off by saying, I'm an attorney. My life was perfect. I thought because I was doing it right, then my life would turn out right. ⁓ If I hard, it would be okay. And it wasn't. And it wasn't just the infidelity. It wasn't just the sex. wasn't just the emotions that made it so hard. It was, I was betrayed by how I thought the world was supposed to work. And that was so incredibly destabilizing. Now that was eight years ago. At the time you're left scrambling because the rug has been pulled out from under you. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Mmm. Lora Cheadle: There are some incredible trauma informed therapists out there. There are also some not incredible people out there who are very well-meaning and they're trying to help. But I just found myself scrambling. I couldn't a foothold. I didn't know who to talk to. I would get all of this conflicting information and advice. And the bottom line for me also was this not about the infidelity. Like so many people are saying, he cheated, where's your self respect? You've got to leave. And it was almost like, that's not really the issue. I could see really what was going on beneath it. And I started getting curious. How could my perfect life have been so not what I thought it was and what's really going on? SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lora Cheadle: It has been a long Suffice to say, my husband and I are still together eight years later. I know he a lot of trauma work, a lot of abuse in his past that was not addressed. ⁓ Uh-huh. had to get very clear with myself where I was being a perfectionist and performing in order to earn love. Where was I making life transactional? SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Wow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Lora Cheadle: Interestingly, through this journey, I had also gotten a book contract this five step process on reclaiming your identity, coming back home to yourself, figuring out who you are without the labels, rules and scripts and masks. So part of my healing journey was me writing this book on exactly what I needed to do to heal myself. ⁓ SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. know, ⁓ you're talking, I'm thinking, first of all, every book I've ever written has been some level of healing journey. Like, even if I didn't intend for it to be, it was. ⁓ I don't think you can put something like that out to the world without first looking at yourself, right? It's that man in the mirror kind of like thought process. And second part that I was thinking about is you're a woman, highly intelligent, obviously. Lora Cheadle: Right. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: highly effective in your career and trusting vulnerably that someone is showing up with integrity. And how when you use the term destabilizing, if it had been something far ⁓ than it was, which it sounds like he was definitely healing some ⁓ ⁓ this affirmations he was receiving from other people. But even if it had been far less than that, it's still this Lora Cheadle: Yes. ⁓ yeah. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: this shattering sense of self, right? Like everything that I thought I knew about who you are, who I am, and our place in the world together has now been rattled. And I think far more anything else is, I'll it this plainly, the mindfuckery that you have to live through to try to figure out who you are again and ⁓ not up in a way that's not graceful. Lora Cheadle: Yes. Yes. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Right? Because inherently, I don't want to become distrusting, nasty, the kind of person who scans a phone. Like, I a life trusting you were keeping your side of the street clean. And now finding myself being this person who's paranoid or whatever ⁓ and like, am I enough? Am I beautiful enough? Am I smart enough? Was I too smart? Was I too... That mindfuckery probably what I think is the most challenging in this sort of situation. And I don't think there's a person on the planet who hasn't lived through infidelity and betrayal. I mean, it's just a part of the season of the life, the earth that we're living on, right? There's just so much coming at us from all different places. Add on top of that generational trauma. you've to be on the active daily to avoid falling into those traps and patterns. Lora Cheadle: Yes. Yes, and I'm glad that you said that because so often when I work with people, one of the things they'll say is, how do I prevent this from happening again? What if I trust him and he cheats again? What if I find a new relationship and they cheat? And that's one of the things that I say, it's going to happen again. Like you will be betrayed in one way or another because that's life and it's horrible and it's unfair. And yes, you can. develop stronger boundaries, you can reconnect to your intuition, you can practice mindful discernment, you can do all of the things and it can still happen. The question really becomes how do you handle it? Where do you find your own integrity? How do you stand in your own strength so you can grieve appropriately and move on without becoming bitter? Because yeah, that was a turning point for me. I crumbled. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Lora Cheadle: I was on the floor crying, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't do anything. It was really bad. Yes, we're not so great. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Great weight loss, right? Like so fantastic. You know, well, even as you're talking, I've recently been through some port battles where I have felt incredibly betrayed and I did everything right. I kept my side of the street clean. so when I say betrayal can look a lot more like than infidelity, you as an attorney can probably understand this. When somebody does the nastiest things that you never thought that they would do for a buck. Lora Cheadle: and Yes. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: or whatever and you're like, gross, like everything that I thought that I knew, you know, and to watch people who are wounded show up in gross ways, playing dirty pool, doing whatever they're doing because of their own insecurities and get away with it, right? It feels so unjust and you can feel, you can let those weeds of anger start to suffocate everything positive and beautiful in your garden. Lora Cheadle: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: And I think that it takes a really strong individual to say, don't think I like that version of myself. I think I'm actually going to tap into something different. I think I'm actually going to choose something different for myself. And like said, preventing betrayal is impossible the world we're living in. It's just not possible. ⁓ And ⁓ had a friend Lora Cheadle: Mm-hmm. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: once in life. He's like my pick up the phone and call whenever something isn't going right guy. We often joke that we're each other's 401k plan in life. Like if everything fails, like you're my you're my go to right. And I remember calling him a couple of years ago and he said, here's my advice. Don't up today for your fear of tomorrow. And I was like the translation be present. Lora Cheadle: Right, I love that. like it. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: find gratitude and what's beautiful in this moment and embrace that and enjoy it because this is temporary. Everything is temporary. And on some level, it's like we're trying to unlock, right? And the way we unlock is by going a layer deeper, not becoming more superficial, not becoming more guarded, becoming more vulnerable. And that's really hard to do. Lora Cheadle: right. really hard to do. One of my like taglines, the thing that I say often is betrayal uncovers the truth. We think it uncovers the truth about who they are, but it really uncovers the truth about us. ⁓ uncovers the truth about those layers down, those wounds that we have, those fears that we have, the ways we are armoring and protecting. ⁓ you know what? You're here. You've been through the experience. Truly, you can let it define you. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Lora Cheadle: and you can move forward and you can be bitter and resentful. Like that's, that's totally a choice, but that's not what I wanted. I wanted to feel good. I wanted to be happy. I wanted to understand trauma. I wanted to understand why my husband did this. And you know, sometimes people will say you're SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. And it's not just him. It's it was both of you contributing to that. Yeah. Yeah. Lora Cheadle: Yes. Yes. It's like I didn't cause it. It's not my fault, but we created this together. Yeah. And I do want to understand. And sometimes people will say you're way too compassionate. And it's like, no, I'm not compassionate because when I can see somebody else with compassion, helps me see myself with compassion so I can go deeper. in a way I'm selfish by being compassionate towards the other people because it allows me to connect with me. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: You created the environment. I'm not being complicit in your shitty choices, maladaptive behaviors. That's not the issue here. What I'm saying is I can sit with my discomfort and create boundaries that feel healthy for both of us to move forward. What I see a lot is an infidelity or betrayal will happen and then one partner puts the other partner in perpetual prison. They never get out. Lora Cheadle: No. No. Yes. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: And that doesn't help the relationship. It's literally a train moving to a brick wall. Like that is all it is, you know? And I think there are very, from what my experience is, there are very few people that actually choose the discomfort of working through that, looking at themselves and going the layer deeper and looking at their partner and sitting with the discomfort. You my partner grew up in an environment that created a lot of just ⁓ be conflict avoidant, right? Just be secret about things and deal with it later, if you ever have to deal with it. And then we come into relationship, I'm like, full stop, not gonna work, because you are actually in a relationship with a psychotherapist. So, this is never gonna work. And not only that, but I know how the human brain scans its environment to find out if it's safe or not. I can pick up on the littlest things. It's so funny. Lora Cheadle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: I told him the other day, he came home, said, son dropped out of track. And goes, ⁓ I don't think so. I think this, I said, he dropped out of track. And he did he tell you that? I said, no, mm-mm, I'm just observing. And so I gave him a few days, and then ⁓ he was at the table eating and I said, so did you drop out of track? And then he launched into the excuses, right? And I said, first of all, I said pause, ⁓ and I at his dad and I said, Lora Cheadle: Mm-hmm. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: I told you so. know, it's that woman's intuition. It's like, ⁓ picking up on these little things. You're home a little bit too early. ⁓ know, you're not like just the little tiny pattern behaviors that you pick up on. But the truth of the matter is we're always scanning our relationships for what's different, right? For what's slightly off. And we don't have a choice about that as humans. And some of us are more in tune to it than others. And so it's also identifying Lora Cheadle: Yes. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: is this a rational thought I'm having right now or is this an irrational thought that I'm having? Am I creating something out of nothing or is there something here that needs to be explored? And I think what I have found is the hands down most best way to approach this is to say, hey, the story that I'm telling myself in this moment is blank and blank. Is that you're choosing your phone because there's something of discomfort between us that you don't want to deal with. Lora Cheadle: Okay. Yes. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: or there's something that maybe you're withholding from me or not being transparent about, you know, and I'm sitting with this discomfort, but I don't like it. And I would love to connect with you about this ⁓ identify what's really going on. ⁓ I think that when couples can just recognize that we're all wounded warriors trying to feel safe, trying to feel loved, trying to feel chosen, they create so much more healthy space for having conversations about things that are really uncomfortable. Lora Cheadle: Mm-hmm. It does. And I love that. And I'm also going to tag onto that and take that example a little bit deeper too. There are times when we see something and we're not ready to deal with it. And that's okay too. Was I blindsided by this? I was completely blindsided. However, when I look back, there was a time when I found condoms in my husband's bag and he gave me a BS excuse that I knew didn't hold water. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Mmm. Mmm. Hmm. Lora Cheadle: But I was in the middle of a whole lot of stuff. The kids were doing things, I was doing things, and I was like, well, I guess if he's that stupid to think that that's why he wanted to buy him. He said he was gonna buy him and give him to our kids and then teach our kids how to use them. And I was like, they're pretty young and he's not engaged with the kids. That doesn't make sense. But I have to recognize I was not ready to deal with it at that time, and that's okay. And it's easy, think, sometimes to look back and play Monday morning quarterback. Why didn't I know? Why didn't I say something? Because you're not ready. And if it's okay, if you're not ready, that's okay too. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Mm. Yeah. You didn't want to know. You know, it's funny. I often I often say that like, like with my partner, I'm like, you know, it's like, God dang, I would never it's like, there's peace and knowing I don't have to know like there is there is some stick your head in the sand kind of joy in life to a lot of different things, right? Not even just our partner relationship, but just various different things. Like we talk about things we've learned about the planet and our place and all the things and it's like, I wish I just Lora Cheadle: Yeah. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: didn't know, you know, I almost ⁓ missed the naivety. I will say kudos to your partner though for choosing condoms, ⁓ that's one of the more challenging things that I've seen in my couple's dynamic. And I think that is where it crosses disrespect. When I'm willingly giving my body to you and you are having sex with someone else exposing me to things that I'm not choosing to put into my body. ⁓ feel like that's where the we cross into Lora Cheadle: Nice. Yes. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: sovereignty, autonomy, health, respect for another person, right? that really is, I've seen that play out in sessions and it is devastating when somebody has had to deal with that or find out that their partner had another child with someone or something like that. So kudos to your partner for at least having enough respect to choose that, right? Yeah. Lora Cheadle: ⁓ yeah. Right, right. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: So you have a plan that you walk people through. I'm trying to be mindful of your time too. You have a plan that you kind of take people through when they experience this betrayal. And by the way, in preparation for our podcast, which I was kind of looking at different things on betrayal and stuff. And it's been a minute since I've read into Helen Fisher's work and things like that. ⁓ I was getting all these betrayal like memes coming up and I was like, damn. Lora Cheadle: Mm-hmm. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: brutal. Man, that's harsh. Like this stuff can take you down into the depths of despair. Like nobody's trustworthy. Screw them all. No one's ever going to show up. You know, I'm like, God, this is like so harsh, you know? So, ⁓ yeah, I was like, I need to reboot my algo. This is not good. This is making me disgruntled and I don't have anything to be disgruntled about right now. So yeah. So talk to me about the plan that you take people through when they do your program. Lora Cheadle: So fast. Ha ha ha! Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. The first thing that I do with them is I teach them to find who they are and find what they like. Just, I mean, that's a tall order. It's not like we can do that on a random Tuesday afternoon. But the first thing is reconnect to what are the things that brought you joy? Do you like gardening? Do you like talking to friends? Do you like baking? Do you just like find that one thing that used to light you up and just start doing that one thing, even if it feels fake, even if you're having a hard time focusing on the book, but you know you like to read. Just try it because it's that moment of presence. It's that moment of a reprieve. It's that moment of, yes, I do like to make sourdough bread or whatever it is. That is really the first thing to do because when you are present, then you can find safety. The second thing that I teach people to do is start re-regulating their nervous system. And I talk about laughter a lot and I know that feels very incongruent sometimes. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Lora Cheadle: But laughter is the number one way to calm and re-regulate the nervous system. something that I remind people, do you remember when we had daily newspapers? There was the comic section. Most started the day, even if they didn't read the whole newspaper, but by reading their favorite comics. So they started with a little dose of laughter, a little bit dose of regulation. So ⁓ what you do to read a funny book? SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Yeah. us. Lora Cheadle: to follow a comedy site on Instagram, to just queue up something on Instagram and just play 10 minutes a day, just constantly bringing in some doses of regulation. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Hmm. Neuroscientifically, we're talking about the counter to cortisol, right? We're talking about the literal counter to what is a spike of cortisol. And I love that so much. And this is something when I've been going through stressful things recently, you know, I say to my partner, I need more laughter. That's what I have to do. I know I have to tap into that. And what is my hope for the future? What are my things that I'm focusing on that I can create that are within my control, you know, those sorts of things. And The laughter, it's just so funny because I'll share. I got kind of a jerk text from someone I was like, ⁓ God, this just feels sickening. ⁓ ⁓ my partner said, why don't you drop it into chat GPT and why don't you ask it to come back with the most eloquent English vocabulary, way too many word response that you possibly can. ⁓ we did it. ⁓ Lora Cheadle: Mm-hmm. I love it. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: laughed our asses off. I mean, I'm talking, I was choking laughing so hard for like a solid hour. I ended up sending it as a reply. I mean, which was, you know, it's what I like, had a choice, like, that the regulated adult thing to do? And I was like, fuck, yes, it is. I'm going to send this back. And we were laughing so hard. And it was one of those things where it's like, I took all the yuck and I turned it into yay. You know, like I was able to shift that. God. Lora Cheadle: glad. I'm not. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: into something that was just like, yeah, this is what life's about. You know, this is the good stuff that we need to insert. And I love that you're saying start your day with that. When my son was young, I was in a mom's group and a mom said, the best advice that I can give any new mom is start your day with what matters the most. breakfast with your child, do your tummy time because the day gets busy and at least you know, you started your day with what mattered the most. ⁓ I totally took that to heart. Lora Cheadle: Right. Mm-hmm. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: And I think what you're saying is start your day with what matters the most. Choosing yourself, choosing laughter, choosing those things that you know, I'm going to be okay. I'm going to be okay. Because the world is still going on and it's not in despair. The trees are still blossoming. They're still doing all the things we expect. The sun is still rising and setting and all those things. I love that. Lora Cheadle: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, and even in the conversations that I had repairing my marriage, and I know that not everybody repairs and it's not for everybody. It's not good or bad, or wrong. It just might be something. But our best conversations were the conversations where we could even find some humor. You know, like I'd be like, dude, you were such an overachiever. You had like all the kinds of infidelity with all like, yes, I knew you were an overachiever. A plus on the affair having you nailed it all, you know, and just. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: you Lora Cheadle: Those were our more productive conversations. And no, not everything, especially early on, can be humorous, but just dropping in those little twists of irony, it does help. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: So let me ask you, because I'm just morbidly curious now, are you panicked all the time or have you found a really good place? Lora Cheadle: am not panicked at all in I have gotten to the place where it makes complete sense. came from severe childhood, poverty, abuse, neglect, like sexual abuse, trauma. It's rife throughout his family. He couldn't have not done this in a lot of ways. You know what I mean? And it was, we will not talk about our problems. We will not get help. You bury it, you move on, you become successful. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Wow, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. Lora Cheadle: course that happened. Of course it happened. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: wish so many people could see this part of it because I think the first thing that you said, ⁓ talking about it, providing safe space to start to share and kind of rip off the bandaid on those old things, you know what I mean? And look at them in a different way. ⁓ It's that so few people can sit through the discomfort to do because ⁓ stuff up. that you know like, some way I contributed to this, right? Like in some way, the way I showed up was responsible for this person's response to me, right? Like there's reciprocity in a relationship no matter how you look at it. There is never just one person, ⁓ when things are going well and not when things are going badly, you know? Like it's just how it is. We that I think sometimes. And I love the fact that you said, Lora Cheadle: Mm-hmm. Bye. right? SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: For me, I was able to look at this part of him and realize that I could show up in a way that was supportive of what he was going through and allow him to really do some work on that. And a lot of women would not have provided the safety needed for someone to even feel comfortable enough to do that, right? And the reality is he would have repeated the same pattern if you left him over and over and over again. It wouldn't have mattered, you know? Lora Cheadle: Right. for totally. Right, right. Because it's how he made himself feel safe. And I like when you said, when times were good, when times were bad, he cheated when times were good because he thought, it can't really be this good. I got to get a backup. When times were bad, he would say, yep, this is it. She's on her way out. I got to get a backup. Like, yeah, right there. And yes, looking at myself, would, I didn't intentionally shame him. didn't intend, but my actions, my behaviors, SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Proving to myself, there it is, yes. Lora Cheadle: I did emasculate him. did shame him. We have very different backgrounds. I didn't understand the impact of my actions. That's okay. You know what I mean? We have to forgive ourselves. It's that reciprocity and it created the perfect storm and through it and we understand it now. And could do it again? Anything's possible, but he has way ⁓ different now ⁓ and have way different tools now. and we have conversation now and it's healthier. We're different. And I think that's. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: To go through that, yeah. To go through that, to choose to find a new partner that would provide that safe space is a high, high risk. And not only that, but you guys grew together. That's the thing is, that's when you can come out of something like that. ⁓ always use the Kintsugi analogy. It's the shattered bowl repaired with gold. ⁓ ⁓ you can come through it together and ⁓ those cracks with the gold glue, Lora Cheadle: Yeah. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: it's so much stronger and more beautiful that it's really impervious to that same type of infiltration because what he was trying to repair, what he was trying to fill, he doesn't have to now because he can show up safely with you and say, hey, this is something that's just come up for me or this is what I'm experiencing. I want to work through it together. One of the things that, you know, my doctoral research is about, well, besides the primal wounds is I can guess your guises as well, but ⁓ Lora Cheadle: ⁓ yes. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: ⁓ is healing using fantasy and sex play. I actually, don't believe. My research has shown that if you can, not immediately after an infidelity, I'm not talking about that, talking about stabilized relationship ⁓ fantasy and desire ⁓ a way to drill down to some of that really early infancy attachment stuff ⁓ heal some of that. ⁓ can be really profound and unfortunately fantasy and desire is another one of those topics that we don't talk about. You know what I mean? And that's something my partner, you know, his past relationships, we, we don't verbalize what's going on in here at all. And I'm like, we do now, know what I mean? ⁓ let me go first here. You know, here's something I think would be hot, you know? And he's like, this is ⁓ Lora Cheadle: exactly. ⁓ huh. Wait, what? Yeah. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: We can talk about this? Like, yes, we can talk about this, you know, the same way that when you were five, you dreamed about going up in a rocket ship to the outer space, right? Like, were you actually ever going to do it? No. But is it fun to daydream about it? Yes. That's playful. That's imaginative. That's creative, you know, and ⁓ that's something that I do work with a lot of my clients on. Lora Cheadle: Yes. us. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: finding what is the safety within it? What are the limitations? Where does something come up? If it's like, ooh, when you said that thing, I felt really uncomfortable. It's like, let's explore that. What was it about that? What was the story that you told yourself in that moment that felt gross or dirty or felt unsafe or felt risky or jealousy, whatever, you know, like, let's talk about that. Let's explore that. ⁓ so I think that the second layer Lora Cheadle: Right. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: to the recovery and even prior to if there's not been an infidelity is using this other off topic off taboo area to ⁓ deeply and gutterly and create more intimacy and more connection. ⁓ I think that's like the really beautiful second step. Lora Cheadle: Yes, it is. And, you know, I never want to come out and be like, I'm so glad the infidelity happened because that is just so ⁓ ⁓ it has brought both of us, both for ourselves as individuals and as a couple, it's a really good place. And ⁓ an honor to have this opportunity. You know, it's ⁓ it's really been meaningful. And I can't imagine what it would have taken. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Right. Yeah, right, right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lora Cheadle: for me to get here because we each had to transcend so many taboo ideas and labels and rules and scripts and beliefs about how the way things should be. And yes, it did allow us to access those very primal. And I also like earlier said ancestral. There was a lot of ancestral work that we both had to do through this. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Yeah, the epigenetics. And you know, it's funny, it's carried on through that DNA. But what's interesting is it's like, my position is this, there's nothing that we can't get through if you're forthright and forthcoming. And we have to both create the space where there's safety to do that. Because for me, I think where I struggle the most with anything like this is at least what I see with my clients is the blindsiding, right? Lora Cheadle: It is. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: The blind sighting is the part that takes somebody out at the knees. And often than not, when any kind of infidelity happens, it's not because they had the intention of hurting the other person. It's because they were afraid the other person was going to reject them ⁓ or they were hurting so much from something the other person already did. ⁓ when you realize that it's kind of freeing in that sense and the bottom line is Lora Cheadle: Yes. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: you would never feel hurt as badly as you do you didn't love as deeply as you do. And so what a beautiful choice to get to experience the full breadth of human emotion. Now that being said, I think boundaries are important. And I think that there may come a time when somebody's just not able to put in the work that needs to be done for you to feel safe. And you don't have to stay in a relationship Lora Cheadle: Mm-hmm. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: where they're not safe. I mean, I think that's an important component. Your husband stepped up. It's like step up or step out. And he rose to the occasion. He sat with his discomfort. He put in the work. You put in the work. He saw you putting in the work, which made it safe for him to put in the work, but both. And ⁓ too many relationships, that's not the outcome. Lora Cheadle: Right. Yes. Right. And what I want to say, just tagging onto that too, he is still doing the work. He, you know, he sees a therapist every two weeks. And if he decides not to, if he decides to go down some other path, I'm not in it. And that's okay too. You know, it's not this guarantee that you've got to guarantee me, you know, the next 60 years of our lives. No, I am in it as long as he's in it. And can we have moments where we backslide? Can we have moments where we fight? Can we have moments where we disconnect? SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Lora Cheadle: Absolutely. But it's are we both going in the same direction and are we both satisfied? And if not, it's okay to leave too. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: I was telling my partner the other day, said, you know how kids grow out of clothes really quickly? I said, and then they get to an age where the clothes fit and they don't need new ones. They can wear what they've got. said, what I see with couples is ⁓ rapidly outgrowing the clothes ⁓ the other one's kind of stuck. ⁓ you find perfect synergy is when you're growing out of the clothes together and get to that place where it's like, cool. Lora Cheadle: Mm-hmm. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: we're in that space now where we know how to navigate this and these clothes fit pretty well. It doesn't mean that we don't go get some new ones that are that same size, we're done kind of in ways that aren't equivalent. You know what I mean? ⁓ furthermore, I think to your point, there ⁓ a guarantee and that's why you've got to be good with yourself first. Lora Cheadle: Right. Mm-hmm. Yes, you always have to take care of yourself first. ⁓ that's the other thing too. So often people will come to me and they're like, I want to do the couples work. That's great. ⁓ find a couples therapist. However, you got to do the individual work first because a couplehood is two individuals. And until those two individuals are strong and clear and able to self-regulate and able to self-reflect, you can't just rely on healing the partnership without healing yourself first. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: I've had to cancel many clients and sessions and say, not the appropriate venue at this time. ⁓ too much here that, because if you cannot step in together, it's never going to work. And that's going to breed resentment and frustration and ⁓ those things. And it really just shines a light on the dark. What ⁓ already there is now really highlighted. ⁓ Lora Cheadle: Right. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. And like our first couple's therapist, a good person, just not appropriate for us, kept leaning into the marriage. Well, Sean, my husband had deep trauma work to do. He had some deep, deep, dark, dark stuff. We don't just sit there together and talk about new communication styles. We got to stop this. He's got to do some of that deep, dark trauma healing. Then we can talk about communication styles. Communication styles didn't help right now. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. And you have to see, again, because your brain is scanning for the safety, you have to see the micro shifts that are happening in the right direction, you know, in order for it to really feel good. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Gosh, I know, I know we're past our time, but I ⁓ loved the conversation and I feel like I need to have you back because there's so many more questions. I just feel like this topic is so Lora Cheadle: Yes. the arm might grow. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: massive, you know? So it's like, okay, great. The audience got to know you today and your backstory. And now we got to come back and do some more work, right? Like the never ending. Yeah. So I would, I would love, I'd love to get you rescheduled again in a couple of weeks, because I feel like this is just such a teaser for so many people. They're going to be like, no, we need more. And I'm going to process afterwards and go, ⁓ I should have asked her this and I should have asked her that. Lora Cheadle: Let's do it. Yes, let's do it. anymore. Yeah, yeah, let's do that. And honestly, I am a complete open book. Nothing is off the table. So yes, let's do it. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: I love it. And thank you so much. Where can ⁓ listeners get in touch with you the best? We do always include everything in the show notes, but just for those that might be driving, where can they find you quick? Lora Cheadle: Yeah, exactly. The ones who are driving, just remember betrayal recovery guide.com, betrayal recovery guide.com. You can download the guide. gives you my email. My name is spelled a little bit differently. So betrayal recovery guide will connect from there. SkyTalkDoc- Dr. Michaela: Love it so much. Thank you, Laura. And we will have you back on with another slew of questions. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today. Lora Cheadle: Thank you for having me.