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Can't Take His Medicine - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 3 Ch 3 · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and
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  in today's episode we are continuing our author's sidecast which is a journey through the
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  Lord of the Rings and we have reached the two towers book three chapter three which is called the
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  Uruk High. Now I'm going to cover four main aspects in this sidecast. The first of all is
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  pointing out the Pippin point of view. It's the first time we've spent an extended time in Pippin's
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  head and what a great place that is to be. The second thing we're going to have a look at is the
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  politics of the Orcs because again another first in this chapter is we get to see behind the scenes
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  of how Orcs conduct their affairs. The third we're going to look at the dynamic of Pippin and
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  Mary together, something which we see more of in the two towers than previously and then at the
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  end I just want to just pause at some particular moments of really fine writing that I just want to
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  share with you and talk about how and have a look at how and why they're good. Okay so we begin
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  this chapter with a nightmare-ish awakening for old Pippin is waking up and finding himself in the
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  hands of Orcs. Now we've it's a common way to start a chapter. I know that as an author that
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  waking up we all do that most days is a standard way to start and if you are to do that you need to
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  make each waking up different otherwise you get the groundhog day experience for your reader.
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  So this one is a particularly nightmare-ish waking up. It also gives us an opportunity to recap
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  necessary info. So rather than the narrator downloading onto us what we need to know Pippin is
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  reconstructing what happened in the last few moments of the fellowship of the ring and it seems
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  necessary at the moment that he should do that so it doesn't feel forced. So we get the skirmish,
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  how he and Mary ran into the middle of the Orcs. His last memory was of Boromir leading against a
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  tree, clocking out an arrow, then darkness fell suddenly, very poignant moment and also an image
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  that lingers and stays underlines the loss that's just been covered in the previous, the first chapter
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  of this book. What I find interesting in this chapter about Pippin, or one of the many things,
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  is how he goes from passive regret to taking action and the passive regret is characterized by
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  him thinking of himself as a piece of luggage that is being sort of carried around by other people
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  awaiting collection. Now the idea of luggage is a very, well it's very 20th century sort of Edwardian
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  railway idea which fits with the Hobbit world which does feel more modern than many of the other
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  cultures. So it fits with the world of the Hobbits because you can't imagine Orcs having
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  conscientious and luggage. So it's what part of the big gap between him and the people who are
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  holding him hostage. He's sort of seeing himself as other people have seen him as he shouldn't have
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  been there. He's a fish out of water very clearly but one of the things all the Hobbit sharing
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  common is once they reach that point they bounce back and he bounces back by taking advantage of
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  Orc politics. So this is the second point I wanted to bring out is here we actually get behind
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  the doors, the closed doors of Orcs. If you think about the fights to this point in Moria,
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  we never really understood much about the individual Orcs. Here they are named, we understand
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  their factions, we understand their politics. So we've got three main factions. We've got the
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  Orcs that have come down from the mines to avenge their leader. We've got the Mordor, Orcs
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  and Grishnack is their leader and we have the Eisengaard orcs who call themselves the Urukai
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  and Urukluk is their leader. So remember that this is written at the time of war
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  where the Allies were up against uneasy alliances between one day they shifted but the Russians
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  at one point until they swap sides, the Germans, the Italians and so on. You can see in the back of
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  Tolkien's mind that he is reflecting on the fact that you're not usually just facing one
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  foe with one agenda, you're facing many with many agendas, the Japanese as well, of course,
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  in that war. We get a snatch of black speech and a hint of their culture because of the
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  Fructalkin cultures start with language but fortunately because you have the different factions they
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  laps into using ordinary language and so Pippin is able to follow the debate. I just want to
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  underline at this point if we're thinking about the author's journey just how useful some
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  version of common speech is. Unless you go the Douglas Adams route of having a babelfish to
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  or a spell to translate things you need to make the fact that people can communicate less of a
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  burden. You don't want to always be going through translation. It's very important for fantasy.
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  So if you're writing a story where people have different languages find some way of dealing with
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  that so it's not a bore. Unless of course the point is that your character can't understand what's
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  going on around them but I wouldn't hang on in that position for too long. So we get a flavor of
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  each of the orcs. These are definitely handled so the minds, they're the weaklings of the bunch
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  basically. They suffer most in the sunshine. They're only there for revenge. They're the ones who
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  get picked off by the other orcs. The mordor orcs are the schemas and they're the ones with the
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  the fel beast waiting, just the Nazgul waiting to spirit away the hobbits. So in a way they're
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  the biggest threat because we could lose our hobbits to mordor. But then the people who have got
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  the upper hand at the moment are the bigger stronger orcs who are Urukhai and he gets a speech
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  book look. We have a number of leaders who have speeches and actually I think this might be one of
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  the few orcs speeches and he deflares that Saruman is the hand that gives us man flesh to eat,
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  shows you how far fallen is the white wizard Saruman. He says we are the fighting Urukhai,
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  he's calling them to arms. And what's funny here is the politics comes in because
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  Grishnack, Mordor orc, starts stirring things up and the insult he gives is I bet it's not man's
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  flesh. I bet it's orc flesh that he gives you to eat. So each race has its own standards,
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  doesn't it? Anyway this results in a skirmish Grishnack shows his cleverness by getting out of it.
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  But it's an exciting set piece where you've got the poor hobbits prone on the ground at
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  in danger orcs fighting around them but it does give Pippin a chance because one of the casualties,
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  the blade is near him, he manages to free his hands, quickly loops them back to hide it and the
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  payoff for that moment is much later. So we know we got this little secret which we share with Pippin
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  that his hands are free and that will change how he estimate his chances of escape.
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  As the orcs go on in this sort of nightmare-ish march where the hobbits are sometimes forced to run,
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  sometimes they're carried, there are deaf touches to coincide with the story that we have just
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  read. So for example it's an important point that one of the forward parties says that they saw
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  a rider but that he rode off, they didn't stop him. So they let a scout go and that is of course
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  what actually is there come up and it's because he carries the word to AMR and so on. So everything
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  is neatly sewn up nicely woven together. But there's also some deliberate inverses of elves here
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  and one of I suppose what this is summed up in is the orc cordial. So where is the orc cordial
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  that Gildor has? It's not it's not only Gildor who has it, Glorfindel has it too. So the things
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  that they that the elves give you to drink, lighten your spirits, are healthful, give you energy
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  and so on. The orcs who are in some versions corrupted elves, though their origins, there's
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  various stories about their origins, they have a sort of corrupted version of that. So it is an
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  effective cordial, it puts you on your feet but it's also nasty. And their treatment, their healing,
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  the elves have a beautiful form of treatment, they bring Frodo back from Devstor. Here the treatment
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  for Mary and the knock he took to the head is rough and ready but it works and it leaves him a brown
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  scar. Frodo is left with a silver scar. So can you see how that in a way the orcs are in opposition
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  to elves, not so much to men? So that's how it lines up there and these parallels are being made.
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  I think the orc are more like men because they seem to be a mixed breed but a pure orc
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  is more of a parallel to the elves. They get a brief moment when Pippin and Mary are able to
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  talk to each other and of course there's a quip between them about Ben and breakfast.
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  Hobbits have a habit of making light of evil things which is another of their qualities which
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  carries them through very dark times. So what's interesting about this chapter is in terms of the
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  timeline, this happens before the chapters we've just read because Aragon and Co are following
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  on behind but there are also some echoes of those chapters. So when the Hobbits touch the grass
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  their hearts rise as did Legolas' heart when they've reached the plains of Rohan we feel this is a good
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  country, a healthy country. And we get this wonderful tapestry weaving that I talked about in our
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  last session where the connection between the action of the previous chapter is connected to this
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  and here we see how the leaf roach got broken or got dropped, it wasn't broken pulled off and
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  dropped deliberately. So Pippin every now and again they came into his mind unbidden a vision of
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  the keen face of strider bending over a dark trail and running running behind. He doesn't know for
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  a fact that they're being followed and came into his mind unbidden is this just because they've spent
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  time with Aragon and trust that he won't give up on them very possibly or is there some other power
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  nudging him in this direction? Who knows? There does seem to be powers of generally good and
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  powers of generally evil at work in these lands so it could be any and all of those things together.
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  But he takes the decision to break out of the main charging orcs to leave his footprints on some
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  wetlands, all very deliberate already, all thoughts through. He's never going to leave Mary behind
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  anyway so he wasn't hoping to escape and he drops the leaf and there he thinks there I suppose
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  it will lie until the end of time and this that particular line has a nice payoff in a couple of
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  chapters time. So when you're repreasing action where we know what happens basically we want to get
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  to the bit where there's the fight. You can do summaries but do them in an interesting way and give
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  them emotion and his sentence which does that. Evil dreams and evil waking were blended into a long
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  tunnel of misery with hope growing ever fainter behind. That skips over the couple of days when
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  they're in this charging away trying to escape before they get caught and take the hobbits back
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  to Eisengaard. So they see that the Rohan forces the aerored has seen them and the stakes are rising
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  and there's a debate amongst the orcs back to my second point about all politics. The northerners leave
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  Grishnack returns with reinforcements and there's another discussion about where the hobbits should
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  be taken and you get to see that the Sadroman the newcomer new kid on the block on the dark side.
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  His lieutenant are all very proud of their wizard and Grishnack is saying you you don't know the half
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  of it about Saron and his powers and he mentions the Nazgul and Grishnack does seem to be extremely
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  well informed. We'll come to that in a moment but Ukluk shows that he is a very intelligent commander
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  because he notices this and he says you seem to know a lot more than is good for you.
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  So these aren't just cardboard cut out bad guys these are orcs with their own agendas and
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  their agendas conflict. Anyway they race for the forest the poor northern orcs get overtaken
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  their their attempt to escape didn't go anywhere and then they get dumped on the ground
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  within sight of the forest but not quite lost in it yet and they could see that the Rohan people
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  are surrounding them and what I like about here is coral pippin so even though he's done really
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  well in heroic sense he is also still the same old pippin and it's nice to keep that humorous
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  touch even in these dark moments running alongside all that he pippin could remember about Rohan
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  was that Gandalf's horse Shadowfax had come from that man yeah he didn't play attention in class
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  did he but that's we all love him for it. Okay he's one of my explainers where I bother to look
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  something up and I hope that you enjoy finding this and finding this out as much as me.
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  What is a furlong because they stop within so many furlongs of the forest? A furlong is an eighth
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  of a mile which in another way of putting that is 220 yards you know that you can imagine a
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  walkier mile so it's at eighths at that distance and not very far of course using a furlong the only
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  time I hear furlongs mention now are in connection with horse racing and it's interesting oh I
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  fit sin doesn't it it's deliberate that the Rohan culture which is all about horses the measurement
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  is furlongs it's also a measurement which works for bow shots so if you think about the kind of
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  breakdown of how far you can shoot an arrow a furlong is a good measurement for that horses running
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  bow shots so that's where Tolkien uses it horse racing and Tolkien this gives a chance for us to
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  see the third of my points which is the relationship between Mary and Pippin we know that they've been a
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  sort of friendship group from the start but what we see here is how they support each other they
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  support each other with what I think of as trench humor I feel as though we're hearing a little bit
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  of the kind of conversations that Tolkien would have experienced as a young man fighting in the
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  First World War where something so utterly awful and ghastly you make light of so they've just
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  had this horrible experience of being dragged across the plains of Rohan and you've got to love
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  their understatement. Mary's first words as he lies close enough to Pippin to say anything
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  I don't think much of this very that's a very familiar British understatement there
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  I'm I enjoy seeing the Rohan riders from the point of view of the people they are attacking because
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  even though Pippin and Mary know they aren't the target they are aware they could be caught up
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  in whatever happens next and they're very scary because of their silence their tactics creeping
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  in under the cover of darkness and silently polishing off a few guards sort of the people keeping
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  watch on the outer edge of the awking cabinant remind me of the kind of things you read in
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  Fenymore Cooper the kind of tactics of Native Americans as Tolkien would have read in those
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  boys own style adventures but he's giving that tactic to the Rohan riders is there a connection
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  here between horse riding warriors and Native Americans with that sort I don't know but that's
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  what it reminded me of and then we get a twist we're told by Ugluck that Mahul and his lads
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  are waiting as reinforcements so we know that they don't win the battle the Orcs we've already
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  heard that but still we're getting a bit of jeopardy that it's it could mean there's a breakaway
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  group maybe Emma was wrong maybe they didn't get everybody and so on so even we kind of know the
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  outcome but by just putting that detail in with a kept on tentahooks a little bit then the
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  Orc politics comes back in again so whilst Ugluck is dealing with an incursion into his ranks
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  Grischnak makes his move and what's particularly striking here is the revolting physicality of Grischnak
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  it's the first time we're really up close and personal with a hairy sweaty
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  foul orc and it's poor old Pippin and Mary that gets tucked on to his arms
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  and there's a line here where he's interrogating them there was a light like a pale but hot fire
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  behind his eyes the other person who has pale lights behind their eyes of course his golem
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  it does seem to be part of the evil influence of the ring this the light of greed that lights up
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  inside those who are desperate for it and so it's natural that this clues in Pippin sort of thought
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  process is prompted that he's after the ring and here you just want to say not full of a talk
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  but clever old touk I do wonder does it aside by here if Grischnak who seems to be very well
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  informed that's what Ugluck told us he knows about the ring he seems to have met golem whether
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  or not he's going to be a main character in the hunt for golem seems like he's there being
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  served on a plate for the filmmakers if they wish to run with him Mary picks up on the hints
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  that Pippin has been making and they start to negotiate but there's a chilling rebuff that
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  Grischnak isn't having it he knows that he's he's the more powerful
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  that he's they are in his power but the hobbits don't give up at that point and they even
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  goes fast to say now's the time to do a deal they're really really brave and clever
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  and what they get back in response is an outraged I'll cut you both the clivering shreds
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  so there is no give in this evil character he is all about getting what he wants
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  and it is his greed and his anger that is his downfall because as he unchieves his sword
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  because he feels he's going to lose his captives he's going to kill them first the sword catches on
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  the the light of the fires in the distance he's then shot he tries to run off and a spears put
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  through him that's the end of Grischnak and that leaves the hobbits lying on the ground and there's
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  a lovely point sort of little detail here in the film it's done as like almost being stamped on
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  by a horse but actually in the book version these horses are so clever they don't try and stamp
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  on the hobbits they leap, leap lightly over them so we've been told that the Rohan horses have
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  extra good night sights so we now see it in action and then we get this wonderful moment suddenly
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  Marion Pippin realized that without moving they were now outside the circle so what do our hobbits do
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  well they're going to sit and have a little bit to eat aren't they and sort of take stock
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  so this is where you get lembas and hobbits meeting and i thought i would just read that little bit
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  because it it sort of sums up so much about both the gift of the elves and hobbits the taste
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  brought back to them the memory of fair faces and laughter and wholesome food in quiet days now far
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  away that's like everything orcs aren't for a while they ette thoughtfully sitting in the dark
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  heedless of the cries and sounds of battle nearby so no longer their business
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  hobbits are keeping out of the big people's business having their picnic so as they crawl away
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  and get free of the danger there there's a moment when they look back to see what's going on
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  talking does these moments extremely well that moment where someone stops and pauses taking
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  in stock um what's going on behind them so as they are about to reach the forest the sound
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  had died away evidently mahu and that his lads have been killed or driven off the riders had
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  returned to their silent ominous vigil it would not last very much longer already the night was
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  in the east which had remained unclouded the sky was beginning to grow pale this moment they're just
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  it's like seeing the fight about to get going and then so you hold the tension by having someone
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  bringing it to our attention as readers and on they go into the into the word or should say of
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  course the payoff from pipping cutting his bonds is that he's able to get them free that's why
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  they're able to crawl away that's why they're able to eat lambas and so on so good good old pipping
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  and as they go away talking underlines as they walked they compared notes talking likely in
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  hobbit fashion of the things that have happened since their capture no listener would have guessed
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  that their words from their words that they had suffered cruelly and and been in dire peril
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  going without hope towards torment and death or that even now as they knew well they had a little
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  chance ever finding friend or safety again again this feels like something from experience just
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  imagine what it was like as a young man knowing the chances of being killed on the western front were
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  huge it feels as though light talk was probably what people did so it can't help but feel that
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  he's been there where the the hobbits are in real world as opposed to Rohan as happens between
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  Frodo and Sam very in pipping think about themselves as book characters and it's very sweet that
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  Mary says you seem to have been doing very well mastertook you will get almost a chapter in old
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  Bilbo's book and of course he has got you've just read it almost a chapter there is this meta level
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  in Lord the Rings where it refers to its own nature of being a book which makes it quite a modern
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  this work in many ways so that's one of those moments where we are reminded that yes this is a
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  chapter in a book and then we get a wonderful passage which I want to read because they enter into
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  Fangorn and they've been in of course the old forest before so how are you going to make this
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  different well they're on their own of course they don't have the others they don't have ponies
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  but here you get a sense of age in the way of right back in the beginning of time age
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  and then you get a snapshot of the Rohan culture as well which is beautifully done and it's taken
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  from the sort of ancient literatures that Tolkien loved so this is Mary he's now leading the way
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  because he did pay attention in class he led the way under the huge branches of the trees
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  old beyond guessing they seemed great trailing beards of lycan hung from them blowing and swaying
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  in the breeze so when I was saying that my last point is about the fine writing this is where we see
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  it so when you talk about something is old and then if you give it a trailing beard you add the
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  gravitas in the age out of the shadows the hobbits peaked jazing back down the slope it'll
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  firtive figures that in the dim light look like elf children in the depths of time peering out
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  of the wild wood in wonder at their first dawn so how can you point out something is old without
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  saying it was very old what you do is you find an image from something which is so ancient
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  way back at the beginning of time seeing a first dawn and then we get this wonderful passage
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  about the beginning of the battle far over the great river and the brown lands leagues upon gray
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  leagues away the dawn came red as flame simple powerful punchy sentence loud rang the hunting
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  horns to greet it the riders of Rohan sprang suddenly to life horn answered horn again
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  so here's the association with Rohan with horns coming in at this point i think it's the first
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  time we hear them actually Mary and Pippin heard clear in the cold air the naying of war horses
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  and the sudden singing of many men the sun's limb was lifted an arc of fire above the margin of the
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  world the drama of the sunrise the drama of the onset of battle are connected then with a great
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  cry the riders charge from the east so they're charging with the sun behind them that gives them
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  the advantage the red light gleamed on male and spear the orcs yelled and shot all the arrows that
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  remained to them the hobbit saw several horsemen fall but their line held on up the hill and over
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  and wheeled round and charged again and so on the singing riders that's an image that feels
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  operatic ancient and we get them singing again and the battle of Paleno fields there's uh
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  this youthful energy about the riders of Rohan even when they're led by their old king
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  they themselves are associated with this with the sun and red they're gold those colors that's
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  their sort of cultural vibe whereas if you think about gondor it's the sea it's silver a white tree
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  and so on so he's contrasting his cultures here but anyway i love this moment it's like
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  a little foretaste of the great charge that happens at the battle of Paleno fields
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  and here we have just to finish this
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  merion pipping escape they're not sure which way the battle is going to go
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  and we get the outside knowledge so remember the conceit behind the book is it's compiled
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  with the memories of their friends so they do know eventually what happened in that battle
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  and so bilbo it's Frodo writing it isn't it at this stage so it was they did not see the last
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  stand when ugluck was overtaken and brought to bay at the very edge of fangorn i'm interested here
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  that ugluck is treated like a worthy ally he's not exterminated very often you feel as the orcs
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  are just there to be kind of killed in vast numbers swatted like flies here aimer gets off his horse
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  and fights him man-to-man man-to-urokai so it gives a sense of this whole other culture of
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  orcs and their characters which we hadn't seen before this chapter and no wonder other fantasy
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  writers have gone away and written about orcs as their own independent sort of imaginative world
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  and i just want to finish with another bit of fine writing which is the very evocative last line
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  so the writers win and put the bodies of their enemies on a pyre so ended the raid and no news of it
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  came ever back to mordor or to isengard but the smoke of the burning rose high to heaven
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  and was seen by many watchful eyes who are those eyes
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  isengard is looking because it seems as though saruman possibly that mysterious figure may come
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  may have come to see what's happening uh hunters arrogant gimli legolas see it but there's a
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  sense of a bigger overwatch maybe eagles may be dazzle so this is once for skirmish in a much bigger
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  battle with the stakes being shared so from this open ground where people can watch we are now
• 31:53
  heading under the ease of fangirl and where we're going to start to meet some very surprising
• 31:59
  new arrivals in the story so join me for next time when we meet treebeard in chapter 4
• 32:09
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• 32:15
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• 32:22
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• 32:29
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• 32:36
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