Latest / Crafted Connections / EP 8: Fluidity, Filmmaking, & Wrestling Piglets with Luke Renner

Transcript

EP 8: Fluidity, Filmmaking, & Wrestling Piglets with Luke Renner · Crafted Connections

0:03
SPEAKER_06: Hello, welcome to Crafted Connections.
0:07
SPEAKER_06: I'm Keely Calhoun, and this is a podcast all about storytelling and building genuine community.
0:13
SPEAKER_06: Here we'll dive into the art of storytelling, unpack strategies for making meaningful connections, and hear from incredible humans who are using their story to create impact.
0:23
SPEAKER_06: So grab your favorite beverage, settle in, and let's craft some connections.
0:29
SPEAKER_06: My friends, welcome back to Crafting Connections.
0:32
SPEAKER_06: This week I am joined by my dear friend and frequent creative collaborator, Luke Renner.
0:38
SPEAKER_06: Luke is a gifted filmmaker, editor, and storyteller.
0:42
SPEAKER_06: And we dive into all sorts of things, but mostly we talk about his film, What Lies Inside.
0:47
SPEAKER_06: We discuss his creative process and the upcoming film, When Everyone Swims, in which he played both an editor and a story producer role.
0:56
SPEAKER_06: This episode and conversation meant a lot to me.
0:58
SPEAKER_06: And I think you will really enjoy it.
1:00
SPEAKER_06: So let's dive in.
1:04
SPEAKER_06: I'm under the impression you've listened to a fair number of the existing episodes of Crafted Connections.
1:10
SPEAKER_06: You may be Crafted Connections' biggest fan, and I really appreciate it.
1:13
SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: I might be.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
1:15
SPEAKER_06: But this isn't about me.
1:16
SPEAKER_06: This is about Luke Renner.
1:18
SPEAKER_06: Luke, thank you so much for joining me on Crafted Connections.
1:22
SPEAKER_06: How are you?
1:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing well.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: And you know what though?
1:25
SPEAKER_01: I disagree.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: I think this is about you too.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: I think you're doing an excellent thing here, and I think you're doing it with excellence.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: I think you are really good at this thing.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: You're good at a lot of things, but like I've been listening to your episodes so far, and I think you're exceptional at what you're doing here, and so I just applaud you for that.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: So very well done.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: Keep it going.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: Don't stop believing.
1:48
SPEAKER_06: I really, really, really, really, really appreciate that.
1:51
SPEAKER_06: You know when you like are like, yeah, okay, I'm good at a thing, and and somebody compliments you and you're like, cool, I received that compliment.
1:57
SPEAKER_06: And it's the compliment's wonderful, but it feels good to be good at it.
2:01
SPEAKER_06: But I'm really loving it.
2:03
SPEAKER_06: I'm really enjoying it.
2:04
SPEAKER_06: Like that's why we're actually doing it, right?
2:06
SPEAKER_06: And to like to already.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: I think that shows.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: I think I could that's part of what I can tell.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Creatively, you're good at doing things that need to get done, whether you like them or not.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: But I but I can just tell as your friend that you're enjoying this.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: It's it shines through and you're good at it, plus the love is there, and that just like matters, makes a difference.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: So kudos.
2:27
SPEAKER_06: Well, now that we've recorded the commercial for Crafty Connections and Caitlin's skills, Luke, tell people who may not know about you a little bit about you.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: So I'm about 35 years old in my head.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm about literally, actually 50 years, not I say about, in July, I'll be 50 years old on the planet.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: So I'm weird to myself.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't entirely know what I am.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: I've I've come to believe that people are not things, people are processes.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: And as a result, what I am at the moment of this recording will be different from what I am tomorrow, probably.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: And so I would say, in simple terms, if you wanted to peg me to a board like an insect and identify me.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: That's what I want.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: I am a I'm a creative professional of 30-ish years in television and film, spent a lot more time in television.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: I like to think of myself as a filmmaker that feels good to me.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: I wrote, produced, directed, edited a feature-length documentary that released in 2021.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: So I've got that one behind me.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: Another one that I'm wrapping sort of right now that I was story producer and editor on.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: And I'm in the throes, the early throws of trying to give birth to a new project, a film project.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: And so when I get to say what I'm doing, I want to say that I'm doing films.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: But I I do a lot of little non-film things between big film projects.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean little in the sense that they're less important, but little in terms of scale, you know, shorter videos, promotional work for nonprofits or this, that, or the other.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: So that's sort of how you would peg me to the board.
4:08
SPEAKER_06: Perfect.
4:08
SPEAKER_06: That's exactly how I would answer that question for you.
4:11
SPEAKER_06: And I would imitate your voice, and it would be so strong and wonderful.
4:14
SPEAKER_06: So actually, yeah, this is just a podcast where I'm pretending to be Luke and Luke is not even here.
4:19
SPEAKER_06: You know what I'm saying?
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Well, you have AI for that now.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: So you can just steal my voice and be me.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Say whatever you want on my behalf.
4:25
SPEAKER_06: Love it.
4:26
SPEAKER_06: Can you run down those two big projects and and then we'll get into the the one that you're kind of incubating at the moment.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's interesting because I didn't this is one of those things that where I look back, I go, oh, this is true about me.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know this was true about me until I look back and see it.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: And that is that as of now, the three films, the two that are sort of in the can, as they say, and the one that's coming, are films about subjects, not fixed events or historical timelines.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: And so when I say subjects, I mean like like concepts or talking points.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: So my first film was about trauma.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: Typically, we think of PTSD, psychological trauma.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, it's the whole body that experiences trauma.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: My first film was about that.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: So it didn't follow one particular narrative, it follows this big idea about what is psychological trauma and what's that mean and what do we do with that?
5:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like this big giant subject.
5:23
SPEAKER_06: And what's the name of that film?
5:24
SPEAKER_01: That is called What Lies Inside: Healing in the Face of Trauma.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: That was my first film, my first project of that length of any kind.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: It's a two-hour film.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: It took six years to make when I said I'm gonna make a film in the beginning.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: I had a crowdfunding campaign and I told people it would be ready in a year.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, I was a damn fool.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Six years.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of that had to do with the fact that while I'm making the film, I'm healing from psychological trauma, which I didn't know at the time when I said I'll do this.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: I was kind of unlocking Pandora's box.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: So I thought I was healing one particular trauma, which I was, but in working on that, it unlocked other trauma and it was like, oh my God.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: And by the time I was probably three or four years into not having a finished film and feeling like I was seriously failing and not honoring that social contract I had with my supporters and feeling shame and guilt and all that.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: I was also tapping into personal trauma that I was going, like, I don't know that I actually want to share about all this.
6:31
SPEAKER_06: Right, right, because you're just learning about it.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's news to me, new to me, and some of it's like very private, very personal, and like hitting me for the first time in terms of I was just making contact with like, oh, this is a thing, you know, and I had all kinds of regret about like, oh, what have I told people I would do?
6:49
SPEAKER_01: And I I kind of didn't want to finish it for about the fourth, fifth year.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: And it took me the last year of that project to really wrestle with self-love and get to the point where I would say, I'm going to release this, whether or not people like it, like me, whether the people who are in it are fond of being in it when they see it, or whether they're like deeply regretful, like, what did this, you know, idiot do?
7:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, I had to just disconnect from the approval or rejection of others.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: And it took me about the last year of the project.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: That was like the big task.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: Most of the filming was done, most of the stitching it together and figuring it out was done.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: It was the allowing myself to let it go.
7:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: That's code for being my love for myself being enough for me.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: Not needing anything else from anybody else.
7:47
SPEAKER_01: Certainly wanting it from other people.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: It's nice, nice to have, but I didn't even really know it going in.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: But but as I went along, kind of realized the significant aspect of healing is I have to be enough for myself now because my trauma was causing me to do everything for the approval of others constantly, which was just driving me into all of these dead-end sort of places in my life that were, again, serving being liked, which ultimately was not always in my best interest.
8:17
SPEAKER_06: Doesn't actually take care of you or the people around you who are closest.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: So that was the first film.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: The second film was brought to me, and it's about the subject of swimming.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: A little more specifically, swimming equity.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: And again, it's not necessarily about one swimmer and her story.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it doesn't have a fixed timeline.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: It's just swimming.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, and you go, oh, and there's all these stories.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: You were obviously a part of the project, so you know.
8:46
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: All these different stories that in many ways have nothing to do with one another.
8:51
SPEAKER_06: And but there's a thread.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: There is a thread if you find it.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, and in some cases you kind of have to make it.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: And I I came onto the project as editor, but by the time it ended, our good director, Gerald Harkness, was kind enough to credit me.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: He didn't tell me he was doing this, but he he sent me the credit list and he named me as story producer because as he's we've talked since then, he he's just sort of like been very good about acknowledging, like, hey, you found how it fits, you found how to connect it.
9:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: But again, that was another film that was just about uh a subject, not this thing that's in you know fixed space and time.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: And then the the next film that I'm working on is similar in that same way, and it it it's looking at the idea of human fragility.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: Again, it's like, what the hell is that?
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Like that's huge.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm finding, again, as I said, looking back, I'm discovering that a thing that I I think I do well, some of that's up to what other people think, but as far as I'm concerned, I think I do well, and it probably has something to do with the chaos that is my brain, whether it's ADHD or maybe I'm on the spectrum.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't know.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: I know I'm not like a lot of people that I know.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: You and I were at a a social, like a networking event the other day.
10:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: And the very first thing that happened at the networking event was this sort of like group exercise.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: And I just absolutely my brain just shut off.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: It just shut down and I felt really guilty and shameful.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: I was in the front row because I guess I was trying to overachieve, I don't know.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: And I was like literally right face to face with with the person putting on the event, and I just wasn't filling out the forum, and I felt shame and it won't, but I just I my brain was shutting down.
10:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: And so I think the things that make me weird, yeah, what I'm trying to say, are the things that make it possible for me to take these unshaped, giant, you know, dragon-size ideas and throw a harness on them and wrestle them down and make them rideable and you know, shape them up.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean it's necessarily easy for me, yeah, but I don't see a lot of other films that are like that.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: I know they're out there, but I'm going like, yeah, I know I can craft a story out of a pre-baked narrative.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: This person did this, these are the dates, this is the timeline.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: I know I can do that.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: It's this making something out of, I don't want to say nothing, but too much.
11:17
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's not nothing, it's a lot.
11:19
SPEAKER_06: If someone else were presented with it, they'd be like, this is too much.
11:22
SPEAKER_06: We gotta we gotta focus in.
11:24
SPEAKER_06: And to go back to the swimming equity film, it's titled When Everyone Swims, our our dear friend and collaborator, Gerald Harkness, is the director, and he brought Luke on as editor, and you know, of course, ended up being story producer because it only Luke could handle like the scope that is how do we capture all these different stories, all these different individuals, and this common thread that is like they share, but they don't necessarily interact about or for sure.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's got everything from Olympians, gold medalists, world record setters and holders to people you've never heard of who just have their personal story with swimming.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Some of the stories in it are longer, some of them are very short.
12:05
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: The thing I do love about that film, When Everyone Swims, is that the narrative feels very fluid, like water, which is nice when the film is about swimming.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: What lies inside feels that same way, but it's not about swimming, it's about trauma, which can be like chaos.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: And so it's a nice vibe that that came out of the swimming documentary, I think.
12:27
SPEAKER_06: I thought it was really interesting to give a little look behind the scenes.
12:30
SPEAKER_06: I watched What Lies Inside literally last night because Luke and I have talked about it for a while.
12:37
SPEAKER_06: We've been friends for like three or four years now.
12:39
SPEAKER_06: You know, he shared it with me, and I've I've been putting it off, right?
12:43
SPEAKER_06: In the sense of, I mean, it's a film about trauma.
12:45
SPEAKER_06: And whether or not people know it, like they they go through different things that that are little tea, big tea traumatizing.
12:52
SPEAKER_06: And I myself was just putting it off, and I could feel that, right?
12:55
SPEAKER_06: It's like I want to support my friend, I want to see his film.
12:57
SPEAKER_06: But I was able to, you know, watch it last night.
12:59
SPEAKER_06: I got myself some chocolate, some magnesium drink, you know.
13:03
SPEAKER_06: I was like, we're gonna treat, we're gonna get a little comfy in a blanket.
13:06
SPEAKER_06: It's gonna be so great.
13:08
SPEAKER_06: But it it was wonderful.
13:09
SPEAKER_06: It was also so luke.
13:11
SPEAKER_06: It really blew my mind because obviously I've seen when everyone swims as like, you know, just a very small part as a you know, associate producer who's collecting the releases, if you will.
13:21
SPEAKER_06: But I've had the chance to see it before the premiere.
13:23
SPEAKER_06: And what lies inside has so much more water than I was expecting.
13:28
SPEAKER_06: Like some of like the imagery when you're you're talking about some of these.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: It does have a lot of water.
13:33
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, some of these internal experiences.
13:34
SPEAKER_06: I was like, oh my God.
13:36
SPEAKER_06: Like you were meant to make the When Everyone Swims film, right?
13:40
SPEAKER_06: And it and it's just like the scope that that takes, the scope that the topic that you picked for what lies inside takes, not many viewers are gonna get to like see the When Everyone Swims and then see what lies inside.
13:51
SPEAKER_06: So it was really cool.
13:52
SPEAKER_06: And then knowing you so well and the story.
13:54
SPEAKER_06: I actually want to dive into that.
13:55
SPEAKER_06: The the what lies inside, the narrative to a layman, I think they'd be like, Oh, that's a film about Luke.
14:01
SPEAKER_06: And it's not, you know.
14:02
SPEAKER_06: So would you mind speaking to that?
14:04
SPEAKER_06: Because I think an average person be like, Oh yeah, that's Luke talking about his drama.
14:07
SPEAKER_06: And it's like, if that were the case, it would just be Luke walking around, this, that, and the other.
14:11
SPEAKER_06: But it's not that.
14:12
SPEAKER_06: You you bring so many people in.
14:13
SPEAKER_06: What what was that process like?
14:15
SPEAKER_06: You gave us a little bit of an overview of the six years, but talk about the experience of making a film that features you but is not about you.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, I I think for me, I I felt like it was important with that topic that I I made the case for why I'm talking about it.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: And I did have, still do, deal with trauma or trauma symptomology.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like whenever you're telling a story, if you have a credible place to start off from, credible in the sense that like this actually affects me personally, then I don't think you're obligated to talk about that, but it's an opportunity, at least to think about talking about that.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: And for me, because like I said, I when I started the project, I really didn't know what I was signing up for.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know what I would unlock.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I've learned about some of the best stories and the best storytellers is that there's a universality to great stories.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes the more specific and the more hyper-focused you are on one person or one detail, you can shut out significant portions of an audience.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: And so I knew that some of the particulars of my story, I don't go into all of my junk in that film.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: I touch on enough, I think, to establish myself as a credible voice who is personally affected by trauma.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: And not just woe is me, look what it did to me, but it turned me into a hard person to be around.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: I traumatized people because of trauma in my life.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: So, like owning it in a big way, not just owning it as a victim, but owning it as a victim who became so deeply wounded and soured and stuck, as I sometimes like to say, that I traumatize other people.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: There's parts in the film where I'm identifying people as survivors.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: And not to give too much away, but some of the people I identify in the film are my family members and it's their name, and underneath it says survivor, and I'm what they survived, like my my deep struggle.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: So it felt important.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: I knew that if I'm gonna talk about me, I have to own it in a bigger way than just I've had trauma and it really hurt.
16:31
SPEAKER_03: Right.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: I had to own it from the perspective of you know, hurt people, hurt people.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: I was a hurt person and I hurt people.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: I had to do that.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: If I was willing to do that, I get to be in it, so to speak, get to be.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: So I did that.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: But then I also knew like trauma, again, back to this subject, it's so vast that if I just keep this thing focused on what I've gone through, like for God's sakes, I'm a white man, born Christian in the United States of America.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, talk about hyper-focusing on a tiny, tiny, tiny little audience that is nowhere near the scope and breadth that that trauma affects.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: It it affects everybody.
17:10
SPEAKER_06: And you had a specialist in there talking about how it affects marginalized groups and speaking to that.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Disproportionately, yeah, marginalized groups they face the the trauma that any of us would, but they have the added complications of just being in the groups that they're a part of and and not having access.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, some communities it's stigmatizing to even say trauma or talk about trauma as a thing.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: Like we don't talk about that.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: And that's challenging if you're struggling with it and you want to talk and you need to get access to help and your own community or culture or or group for whatever reason makes that hard.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Like as hard as the experience of being traumatized and coming to terms with my trauma and healing as much as I can from my trauma, as hard as all that's been for me personally, I'm the lucky one.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: Like I've just had so many more opportunities, so many more pathways that are available.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: I didn't even take them all.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: Like I have had more options available to me than I could possibly have used versus people who have either virtually none or none.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: So it was really important to talk about the story kind of specifically.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: Part of that I've already said is to establish credibility as like why I'm talking about this.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: But another part of it, if I can just be selfish, is I needed to see me calling my trauma trauma.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: I needed my little hurt person inside of me, that inner child, if you will, or all the different ages, you know, all rolled into one.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: Like I say, we're process, not a thing.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Needed to see me standing up for myself and calling a duck a duck, so to speak, and not brushing it off.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you saw like there's tough conversations with family members, and like, how do you do that with grace?
18:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I talk to friends and colleagues while I'm making the film, and I'm like, I don't know how to talk about this when sort of my parents are in the spotlight.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: And I had one friend in particular say, like, just say everything and anything you want to say.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: And it was almost like a they didn't say cannibalize them, but it kind of felt that way to me.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: It was just like, you know, whatever anybody did to you, that they could have not done it.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: They did it.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, turnabout is fair play kind of an attitude.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: But see, the thing for me is I wanted to have relationships with people that I love after this.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like, how do you talk about hard stuff?
19:31
SPEAKER_01: How do you talk critically about people you love, still plan to love, still want to love, would love to have continue loving you?
19:38
SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you do that?
19:39
SPEAKER_01: I even say it in the film like, how do you do that?
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: So that was really important.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: And honestly, a lot of the feedback I get from the film, one of the things I consistently hear back is an appreciation for including that personal aspect, even insofar as like having my parents involved and having them in the conversation and showing a little bit of how that played out.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: The general sense in those comments that I get is people are grateful to see that it is actually conceivably possible if you want to do hard things and come out with life on the other side, yeah, not just destruction and chaos.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I had to blow up my world in order to have myself.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't necessarily have to be that way for everybody.
20:23
SPEAKER_06: No, I feel that, and especially when you're healing from a trauma, right?
20:27
SPEAKER_06: Your trauma is gonna tell you well, if you approach this, everything's gonna blow up, you know, hashtag death.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: Like you know, trauma's scary, yeah.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: It is very much.
20:37
SPEAKER_06: So to see someone else exploring it and still like live to tell the tale, literally, share his film years later, just to know that you are still a functioning existing human being is very permission giving.
20:51
SPEAKER_02: For sure.
20:52
SPEAKER_06: Wonderful.
20:52
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I want to jump into stories on that front, right?
20:55
SPEAKER_06: The stories and the connections.
20:57
SPEAKER_06: There's a few things when we actually share our stories, how much that allows other people to then step into the vulnerability, step into what they're needing to explore.
21:08
SPEAKER_06: And then also to go back to what you were talking about with your parents, stories can hurt.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: For sure.
21:13
SPEAKER_06: They really can mess up relationships, like they can, they can be helpful and build community and they can tear it apart too.
21:19
SPEAKER_06: The like devil may care, tell whatever freaking story you want to is almost irresponsible.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I again it like comes back to that hurt people, hurt people, as I point to in what lies inside.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: And I don't just like start out there.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Part of the thing I love about the film is that even though it's very non-sequitur and it's it's very swimmy and it flows around and it goes all over the place, you sort of do see a a linear presentation of how I'm encountering trauma throughout the film.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: And so, like by the point I say, like, how do you have this conversation?
21:48
SPEAKER_01: It's a little past the midpoint of the film, and I haven't yet had the conversation necessarily with my folks.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: And so you kind of see it happening.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: It's not like I start out with, Oh, let me recap what you're about to see.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't Doesn't flow that way.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: I had to make real decisions about, you know, sometimes when you're hurt, you want to hurt back.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: You want to, you know, get your pound of flesh or just get justice.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean to say that all hurting back or that justice is a bad thing.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: Because again, my story is my story.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: It's very different from other stories.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: Some stories like wanting justice is the thing to want.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: I truly believe that healing from trauma is an art form and that everybody who undertakes it is an artist, whether they want to think of themselves that way or not.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: And by art, I mean you figure it out as you go.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: It is not prescriptive.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: You feel yourself flowing.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: You pointed out aptly that I reference water a lot in that film.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: Actually, in the teaser for my upcoming film, I've created a little teaser for a crowdfunding campaign.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: And literally, there's water in this thing.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: It's occurred to me it wasn't intentional.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: So, like, this is the moment where, as storytellers, we can be honest.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we do a thing and we're like, oh yeah, I meant to do that.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: From the beginning, I'm just brilliant.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: And then sometimes you look at your own work and you're like, oh, I guess I do that.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: I guess that's important to me.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wait.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: I think there's a spiritual thread in my life between water and being intellectually honest about who and what I am at all.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, so I'm more on the second side of that when it comes to the water.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm like noticing it.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I do do that.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: There's something true about fluidity to me, which is most easily represented with water, about what it means to be ever changing, ever-evolving, and and not necessarily ever healing, ever improving.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: Like I think I've gone through phases where it was like I've gotten tired of the part of me that's like, I'm focused on wellness and always getting better.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, always getting better can also, it's sort of like, well, am I not good enough?
23:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, when am I good enough to not need to get any more better?
24:01
SPEAKER_01: But if I instead of engaging it in those terms, if I engage it in terms of like, I'm like water.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, some days I'm swirling, some days I'm pooled up and I don't move around much, some days I'm flowing, some days I'm falling, some days I'm frozen.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, literally, water does all these things that feel true to being human, whether you're healing from something or just discovering who you are or any of that stuff.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: I I think that you get to choose, and one of the things I had to face in the process of making what lies inside was what do I want to do with the people who hurt me?
24:34
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Because it wasn't, did they hurt me?
24:37
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't, am I being unfair?
24:39
SPEAKER_01: Am I just being a little, you know, crybaby?
24:42
SPEAKER_01: It was if I'm saying they hurt me, what do I want to do with them next?
24:47
SPEAKER_01: And for me, as I do in the film, I started to realize, well, you know what?
24:51
SPEAKER_01: If hurt people, hurt people is applicable to me, it's applicable to everyone.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: And the people who hurt me were hurt, and the people who hurt them were probably hurt.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: And it only takes one or two generations out before we just can't even see anything anymore.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: Because I've personally been in the room with some of my great-grandparents.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: I have vague memories of them because I was very young.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't know them as people, right?
25:17
SPEAKER_01: I haven't close to know them as people.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: And so the best I've got are my parents and my grandparents.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: And even my grandparents, I didn't really know them as people in a deep, personal, intimate way.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: And I got to know one of my grandmothers.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: She's in the film, her voice is there, and she just like opens up near the end of her life.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: And I had a voice recorder, and she just starts talking about her life in terms of trauma.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: And I actually wasn't making the film when I recorded her saying that.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: I was just like sitting beside her as she was dying, and she started opening up.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, you know, I'll be a dumbass if I don't like capture some of my grandma's voice.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know what she was even gonna say.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I would record some conversations, and and occasionally she would go down this path.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: And then fast forward, I'm working on the film, and I'm like, oh my god, like this is my grandmother, the real person.
26:09
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: And to me, she was always, you know, making cookies or apple pie.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, she's being a cool grandma, which is a part of the whole person that was my grandmother, all of my grandparents.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I got so lucky that she opened up in that way.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: And I know now, and even listening to it, and you kind of hear it in the film, I think, like there's regret.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: There's there's untouched or undealt with pain.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like she was telling me what life's all about and let me tell you how you figure this out.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't that at all.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: It was like, oh my god, like grandmother is all of these things that are nice and pretty and sewn up, but she's also a lot of unfinished business.
26:47
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
26:48
SPEAKER_06: Like a lot of pain.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: A lot of pain.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: You can hear it.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she flat out says it.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: She's like, you know, I wished someone would love me like that.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Like while she's crying.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: And but those are moments that made it more possible for me to go, okay, look, nobody deserves to get bit back.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: In my view.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: Now, again, that's my story.
27:08
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't speak for anyone else, and that's big.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: That's another reason why it was really important to rope in, you know, the voices of other survivors whose trauma was nothing like mine.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: In some cases, they remembered things that I still don't remember about my backstory.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: And medical professionals like Bessel Vanderkook and Peter Levine and Vincent Felliti.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so like it's got all these different voices, including my own.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: And the hope there is to sort of draw a little bit of a world map.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: I have a good friend who, when he first saw it, he knew I was making it.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: And it opens with me.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm in there right at the beginning.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: As he describes his viewing experience, he says, when I watch the film, my first thought was, Oh, this is a story about Luke.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: And then a little bit goes by and he goes, Oh, this is a story about other people too.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: And then a little more goes by and he goes, Oh, this is a story about me.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: And that's really kind of what it does.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: It shows the map a little bit.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: So you don't necessarily, when you go in, you may, you may literally think, I don't have trauma.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Why would I even watch this?
28:12
SPEAKER_01: But by the end, a lot of people who do go in with that point of view come out going like, maybe, maybe I do, or I definitely do.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: Still, there are people who say, you know, no, not me.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: I you know, but they've found it helpful because they know somebody in their life that they care about deeply who has been traumatized.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: And it helps them find the grace, yeah, a little more bandwidth, a little more room for understanding, like, oh, this can really wreck a person.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is deeply affecting.
28:44
SPEAKER_06: So Yeah.
28:45
SPEAKER_06: You do a great job.
28:47
SPEAKER_06: The film itself is very visually allows for a lot of interpretation from the viewer.
28:54
SPEAKER_06: For sure.
28:54
SPEAKER_06: There's so much different like imagery that you know lends to a feeling but doesn't like put a face on it.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: For sure.
29:02
SPEAKER_06: And then if there are faces, there's a there's a diverse number of faces, right?
29:05
SPEAKER_06: So it allows for people to like sit with their thoughts, explore things as they're being given information, as they're being given stories.
29:12
SPEAKER_06: And I also love allowing for like people to not necessarily remember an experience.
29:18
SPEAKER_06: Like I I love how you you convey that.
29:21
SPEAKER_06: You've spoken to me about it, right?
29:23
SPEAKER_06: But then it's to be conveyed in a visual way as well.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:26
SPEAKER_06: Is really, really cool.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: I I I will say, and I think this is universally important for storytellers.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's worth sharing.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I had to come to grips with in that final year of what lies inside before I could push that out into the world, my love for myself had to be enough.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: Which, of course, when I started the project, I didn't know how to love myself.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: I hated myself.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: So not only did I have to get to the point where I do love myself, but then I had to get to that final hurdle of, that's gotta be enough.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: And so that was all happening.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: But another element of that is recognizing that once I release this, I cannot go in search of compliments.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: I cannot go in search of affirmation.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is a rule I put on myself.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: It's not like you couldn't, but I had to say to myself, in order to know for sure that my love is enough for myself, I have to not seek it out from anyone else.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: So if people want to come to me and say something about the film, fine.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: Even if it's critical, fine.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: Like that's fine.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm not allowed to seek it out, but I have gone through a period of time since it released in 2021 where I have not sought out affirmation or any of that.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: And this is the piece that I think is important for other storytellers.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: The truth about art is once art makes contact with an audience of any kind, it ceases to be what it was when you set it down.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: Whether you're painting a painting, recording a song, making a film, my art in the case of this film is exactly what it was when I set it down.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: It's what it was to me.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: But the moment any audience member, any human watches that, they bring themselves to it.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: And it's literally like a sperm and an egg.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: A new thing happens when an audience member makes contact with a piece of art.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: There's a spark that happens, and it's none of the artist's business what that is.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: It's not your right to know it.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: It's not your right to control it.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: You can't own it, you can't have it.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's worth sharing from a storytelling perspective because I know one of the things I learned by dealing with trauma is if it's happening to me, it's probably happening to other people.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: I know that there have to be other storytellers out there who are just terrified of like what will happen when this goes into the world.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: Here's the truth that's none of your business.
31:36
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: Even if you could know you can't do anything about it, it's different from what you set down.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: It's a whole different thing.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And here's the thing: if a thousand people see it, it's at least a thousand different things.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: Because every individual interaction with your art is a new thing that is born in the mind, in the heart, in the psyche of another human.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: And it's just completely out of your grasp.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: It's out of your control.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: It's made it easier for me.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: I do now have a much easier time.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't take me a year now to finish something and like, oh my God, like, what's it gonna take for me to let go of this?
32:12
SPEAKER_01: Now I just go, am I good with this as the artist making this thing?
32:16
SPEAKER_01: Does this feel like it's where I need it to be to let it go?
32:19
SPEAKER_01: And then once I let it go, that's it.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Like occasionally I'll hear positive feedback and that'll feel good.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not gonna lie, but I'll hear criticism, or sometimes I'll get stone cold silence, and it's like, and my brain will be like, Why aren't they saying they hate it?
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Why aren't they saying anything?
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And I again I just have to go, like, dude, not your not your business.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: It's not even not your problem, it's none of your business.
32:42
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
32:42
SPEAKER_06: What you were saying reminds me of the quote, what people think of you is none of your business.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's this it's really the same idea.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: But if you're if you're unable to really love yourself, if you're unable to take your answers as valid and valuable and worthwhile, yeah, then that's almost impossible to pull off.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: So if a person's listening to this and they're like, but I can't not care, right?
33:04
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say you don't love yourself, but I would say it's time to really get real about do you?
33:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, really go.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, why is your opinion of yourself not ultimately the only opinion you need?
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Why isn't it?
33:16
SPEAKER_06: And there's different levels of that, right?
33:17
SPEAKER_06: Like different levels, different categories in life.
33:20
SPEAKER_06: You know, some things you're like, yeah, don't care.
33:22
SPEAKER_06: And other things you're like, oh, I wish that they would love me.
33:24
SPEAKER_06: And I do want to call out the idea that like your trauma was showing in a symptom of like people pleasing and wanting to be loved, you know, uh doing things for the sake of being likable, right?
33:36
SPEAKER_06: So how beautiful that when it was time to release the film, you kind of made like a contract within yourself that like whatever they think or care doesn't matter.
33:46
SPEAKER_06: Because this is this is literally what I've been working towards is to heal so that I don't give a shit about people's opinions.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: That was definitely one way that my trauma manifested was in people pleasing.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: But to be completely honest, I was also I didn't give a shit about what I was doing to the people in my own house, to my children, to my wife.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: So the people I should have cared what they thought, I was wounding them.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: And the just general public of strangers who only exist conceptually are the ones I want to have love me.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just totally jacked headspace to be in, but it's exactly where I was.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: So I still care that people love me, but I care about which people love me.
34:24
SPEAKER_06: The nourishing relationships.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: I I I sort of joke about it.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: I say I used to be a dog person.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm definitely more of a cat person.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: One of the key differences I see between dogs and cats is dogs will just forever take your shit.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: They just keep coming back with love, no matter how much shit you deal.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Even an abused dog will still come to you with its coward look and its tail tail.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: It still comes to you.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Cats are like, dude, you get your shit together, or we're just not talking.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they may still do that anyway.
34:54
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: But like cats demand equity in the relationship.
34:58
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, they definitely have boundaries.
35:00
SPEAKER_06: They have boundaries.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: If you have to go outside of the human animal for a model, I think that's been a fun sort of like realization.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: I know I still love dogs, but I have a profound new respect for cats because, you know, they have boundaries.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: That's a good way to say it.
35:15
SPEAKER_06: I love that.
35:15
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, you're not out here being a dog hater, but you you can respect the way that cats operate.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: For sure.
35:23
SPEAKER_06: Y'all know I love telling stories.
35:26
SPEAKER_06: I love helping people figure out how to tell their story.
35:29
SPEAKER_06: So, as a part of Calhoun Creative Consulting, I offer one-hour story strategy sessions.
35:34
SPEAKER_06: And they're designed to get you unstuck and into alignment with your story.
35:37
SPEAKER_06: Whether you're launching something new, reworking your brand, or just feeling a little foggy on how to show up and talk to your people, this is your hour to get clear.
35:45
SPEAKER_06: We will dig into honestly whatever you need to, whether it be your narrative, uncovering what matters most, where you get in blurry, how can people understand you a little bit more, how can people understand your messaging, and map out some creative ways to share it with a bit more confidence, a little bit more gumption, a little more oomph to get the people vibe in with you, right?
36:04
SPEAKER_06: You'll also get a recording of our session so you can revisit the conversation at any time.
36:08
SPEAKER_06: Let's shape a story that actually feels like you.
36:10
SPEAKER_06: Look yours today.
36:11
SPEAKER_06: There's a link in the show notes, check it out.
36:13
SPEAKER_06: And hey, while you're at it, use code podcast at all caps, P-O-D-C-A-S-T for 25% off.
36:22
SPEAKER_06: Now back to the episode.
36:25
SPEAKER_06: You talked about the healing process being kind of like the creative process.
36:29
SPEAKER_06: Can you talk to me about your creative process?
36:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm a whittler.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, when you're creating something like a documentary about a subject that doesn't have a pre-baked narrative that is fixed in space and time, the challenge is you're both creating a puzzle from scratch while you're putting it together.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: And that's really, really hard to do, especially if you need to believe in yourself along the way.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: Because the brain only like feels good when it sees things working, when it sees things coming together.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a huge valley between the start of a project like this and the end of a project like this.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: And the valley is it just feels like utter chaos in the sense that you have way too many parts and none of them fit together in any sensible way.
37:20
SPEAKER_01: At the beginning, there's a lot of excitement because you're like, oh, I'm getting all this media or I'm getting all these stories, I'm getting all these resources.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: Isn't this going to be grand?
37:29
SPEAKER_01: But then when you start getting into the mud with it and trying to wrestle that pig and it's moving all over and getting out of your hands, you're like, what have I done?
37:37
SPEAKER_01: What have I signed up for?
37:38
SPEAKER_01: This is going to be the death of me.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: After the valley comes the moment, and this happened with what lies inside, this happened with When Everyone Swims.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: I only recognized this as a part of my process by seeing it happen the second time when I was working on When Everyone Swims.
37:53
SPEAKER_06: Which is a lot of years of learning.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: A lot of years and a lot of time between.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have the value of the perspective of anything to compare it to with the first film.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: So the first film, even though I finished it and I'm super proud of it, I think of it as a legacy project.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: If I never make another thing in my life, I go like, I do feel like with that film, I can check the box of leave the world better than you found it.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: Like to say that in your 40s, like, I'm the luckiest person alive, right?
38:20
SPEAKER_01: But I still didn't have anything to compare that to.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: So then I get into the swimming documentary and I'm finding myself going through some of those same rhythms.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: Excited at the beginning, lots of cool stuff coming in.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: Then I get in the mud and the pig cannot be captured, cannot be held.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: It's slipping all over the place, and I just feel like a damn fool.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: And then that when the valley experience breaks, it gives way to this moment where my brain starts to go, well, now this little chunk kind of makes sense next door to this little chunk.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: And maybe I don't quite have the connective tissue yet.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I need one person to say just one perfect thing.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: And that I don't know where that is yet.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: But I know that these things proximally feel good next to each other.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: I might flip the order and go, does it feel like if that one comes first instead of this one?
39:07
SPEAKER_01: I might do that.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: I start to see that.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm still in the valley.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm still in the mud.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm catching a few piglets and I'm putting them in their little tiny pens, right?
39:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I still don't have a whole, I don't know what do you call a herd of pigs.
39:22
SPEAKER_06: Let's just say like a murder of pigs.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: A murder of pigs.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: That's crows, are they?
39:26
SPEAKER_01: But we'll go with that.
39:27
SPEAKER_06: No, but I like it.
39:28
SPEAKER_06: I'm also like, I'm really, really a fan of this like Luke chasing little piglets around a farm metaphor.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: But it's a good it is a good look.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: So I'll get these little chunks, and inside of the chunks, things may fit together, but then the chunks themselves may not fit together.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Like this cluster doesn't fit with any other cluster.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: So it just what happens is I get to this point where eventually, through all these little splinters, I have formed a stick.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: And then once I have a stick, I start to whittle it down to I sharpen it up and I refine it.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: And so this can be hard because when if you're working with a creative team and they want to see progress reports, they want to see updates, let me see what you've got.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: You could hand in a little cluster of piglets and they haven't seen anything from you in months.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: And so the immediate thing they want to do, it's the only meat that you've given them.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: And so they just start salivating and they want to talk about it, and what can you do, and do-da-da-da-do, and they have ideas, and you're like, dude, I can't take any more incoming ideas.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm just those pigs stay over there.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: I I see other things taking shape, but I you you can't see them.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: I have to understand that no one sees that but me.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: And there came a point with Gerald in When Everyone Swims, where I actually, in so many words, I actually said to him, like, I need to disappear for a while.
40:44
unknown: Yeah.
40:44
SPEAKER_05: This is I'm I'm starting to do it.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really kind of was.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: It was like, I need you to not need anything from me for a little bit here.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: I could and what was happening was I was exiting the valley.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I could feel the change happening where I can start to see a break in the clouds.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm jumping out of the pig sty and up into an airplane now.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: Let's go, let's go.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: And I can start to see a runway forming in the distance.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: And that's when I'm like, you're not gonna hear from me for a hot minute, which could be months, I mean weeks for sure.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: And trust me.
41:17
SPEAKER_06: Very least, he knows where you live, so he's like, cool, you're alive and great.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: He does know where I live.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: He can come bang on my door, get his stuff back if he needs his media.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: And Gerald's awesome to work with.
41:27
SPEAKER_06: I mean, one of the honestly, he this is the biggest Gerald fan club right here.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
41:33
SPEAKER_06: And we're not the only ones.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: I was the problem working with Gerald because like I brought dissatisfaction on his behalf.
41:40
SPEAKER_06: You projected, you projected that he was dissatisfied with you.
41:43
SPEAKER_06: Got it, yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for saying it better.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, I brought all of this baggage because I was like, if I were you, I'd be scared, worried, nervous.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:52
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
41:52
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: In fact, he was just anytime I would say that, he would just reciprocate with love and support and trust.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: And eventually what happens, now I know, because I've now done it twice officially in my process, is I go through this moment where I actually get really excited again, and I'm like, this is starting to make sense.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's the leave me alone, just leave me alone.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: And I kind of go into the cave.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: Not that I haven't been there already, but I go in with a whole different like energy.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: First, I was fumbling around on the now.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: We're doing cave metaphors.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: First, I was fumbling around in the dark, and then once I got some light, I'm like, I can find my way out of here now.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: Like I know I can.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: And so that happened.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: And then once I hit that point, it really happens fast.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: In terms of like hours in the chair, once I hit that point, it you know, it can be a week or two when this thing that may have literally taken close to or much of a year, it can it can happen where like in a week or a two-week period, I can be like, I'm done.
42:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: Like it's just happen, it's just, it's, I'm done.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: It it finally it all makes sense, you know.
42:54
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
42:55
SPEAKER_06: Well, and you you gave me a pep talk uh like a week or two ago about because I was like, Oh, I've been procrastinating on this project, and you're like, No, you haven't.
43:01
SPEAKER_06: You know, it's in the crackpot.
43:02
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly what I said.
43:03
SPEAKER_06: You've been thinking about it.
43:04
SPEAKER_06: You're like, I know you, you've been percolating.
43:07
SPEAKER_06: And that's something about maybe being creative, but in in our case, right, being an editor or like a storyteller, like you gotta like really digest, percolate on all the parts and pieces so that you can like take complex ideas and put them into a simple ish narrative.
43:23
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
43:23
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we live in a world that's but that's our process.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean we connect over that now.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: If you have the latitude on your project, if you've got the time available, if you've got producing partners who have faith in you, they trust you, they're willing to give you that.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: What I would say is I think you're gonna get a more tasty outcome.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna get a better story.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: And part of the reason I actually do think it's better is because we're not just telling stories to the conscious mind.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: We're telling stories to the unconscious mind.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: Love.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: And you can't bullshit the unconscious mind.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: If you spend real time Real time marinating with a story.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: If you have that luxury, the unconscious mind of the audience, the conscious mind might be like, that was great, but the unconscious mind is the part of the audience that will, I can't quit thinking about that film or that project.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: Like it hooks and it keeps working.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: I have people still tell me, like with what lies inside.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, when you said you watched it just before the interview, there's a part of me that was like, Oh, I'm so sorry.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Because it's a thing that works on the unconscious mind too.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: I've just seen it happen.
44:31
SPEAKER_06: But how like how lucky for me that I get to watch it and immediately have a conversation with you in the sense too.
44:36
SPEAKER_06: Like it's really cool because, like, literally, as you're talking, scenes are popping into my mind.
44:41
SPEAKER_06: It's that subconscious that you're talking about.
44:43
SPEAKER_06: Like, I'm just like, oh yeah, and that, and that, and that.
44:44
SPEAKER_06: And I'm like, okay, Caitlin, this is also, you know, an episode about Luke and connections and story, right?
44:50
SPEAKER_06: And not just what lies inside.
44:51
SPEAKER_06: But of course, I watched it the day before, and here we are.
44:54
SPEAKER_06: But it's also like we're talking about your approach.
44:57
SPEAKER_06: The story has so much in you.
45:00
SPEAKER_06: And then also to like reflect now that you have wrapped When Everyone Swims, you know, we're we're literally I'm gonna publish this the day before the premiere.
45:08
SPEAKER_06: Nice on May 9th.
45:10
SPEAKER_06: And I'm so grateful to know you, to collaborate with you.
45:13
SPEAKER_06: I hope you don't mind that we kind of take it out from here where I ask you, what do you want to share with people before we close out?
45:19
SPEAKER_06: Do you have any last things you want to say?
45:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think that it's interesting because I'm I'm in a weird relationship with story right now.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm working on a next film and I've been working on a book aspirationally.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: Will I ever publish a book?
45:33
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: But I'm working on it.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: So currently, my next film that I'm launching into, uh probably have a crowdfunding thing going by the time you post this podcast.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: If you want to find that, I'll link to it through my website, lukerenner.com, and you can see what that project's about.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: I would be thrilled if anybody wanted to, you know, support a next project.
45:54
SPEAKER_01: Who wouldn't be thrilled by that?
45:55
SPEAKER_01: I would be thrilled by that.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: So if people hear this and that's still up and running and they want to do that, great.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: If they go to my website and that's long since over, just check out the films that I've got posted there.
46:06
SPEAKER_06: The timeless website, Luke Renner.com.
46:09
SPEAKER_06: It'll give you everything you need.
46:10
SPEAKER_06: If you need whatever Luke Renner is doing right now, Lukrenner.com.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: Can I just say, and you can't cut this out.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: So I've seen Hellbender in the Blue, and before the podcast, I actually, in full disclosure, I asked you to watch what lies inside.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: I knew you were tenuous about it because it's covers stuff, you know.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: Like again, we all have to watch the stuff.
46:31
SPEAKER_06: Because I was like, what lies inside me?
46:33
SPEAKER_06: You know, question mark.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: And I've told you, and I've meant it sincerely for a while now.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: My friends don't have to watch my films.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: They don't have to do that.
46:42
SPEAKER_01: And I've given you permission not to watch the film.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: And when you asked me to do the podcast, I was like, I think it would help if you had seen the film.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, to take my own medicine, I was like, I want to make sure I've seen all three of your shorts.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: And so I watched them.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: And no, don't do that.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: Because I want to say, like, first of all, talk about me with water.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: You're like water lady.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you got like yours are so centered around water.
47:08
SPEAKER_06: Oh, that's hilarious.
47:08
SPEAKER_06: You're right.
47:09
SPEAKER_06: They're all rivers.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, and it's that's that's deeply connected with me for the obvious reasons.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: I just am so impressed with your, I don't know, uh voice sounds a little cliche, but like I think you've got a really just a tasty storytelling voice, style, point of view, perspective, and everything from the stories you've you've covered so far, the films you've made so far, the way you have them shot, the way you edit those, the way, and I mean your team, you slash the team, the scoring.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: They're really beautiful, and you kind of do the self-deprecating thing right with the best of us, which I can appreciate.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: But don't do that because uh, like I can't wait to see your next, whether it's a short or a feature.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: You have to keep telling stories yourself, not just in this podcasty where you're really good at this, but you're an exceptional filmmaker yourself.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: And I I wanted to make sure I said that to you because that's not flattery, that's observation, and it's like, please, whatever you do, if you're doing this and this is going great, just don't give up telling stories through film because you're very good at it.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: And your voice is just like chef's kiss.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: It's very good.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: Your style is just it's just delicious, and I love it.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful that we're friends.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm just like lucky as hell that we're friends.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: I really mean that.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: And so I feel grateful to be on this and I feel grateful to know you.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
48:39
SPEAKER_06: The feeling is so mutual, and I'm, you know, my my uh face cheeks are are cramping because I'm just smiling.
48:46
SPEAKER_06: I really appreciate all those compliments, and I'm I'm gonna just receive them right now and then I know it's hard.
48:51
SPEAKER_06: I'll send you some self-deprecating texts later, you know.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: That's perfectly fine.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: I expect no less.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: And and your filmmaking style, I think, and people who know you, I think can appreciate this.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: People who don't know you will just have to like suffer, I guess.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: But your filmmaking style, you're living who you are, and who you are shows through in your in your films.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: And there's just a real, I'm gonna use the word, there's a real fluidity there.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: And I know that in some of the times when you've felt like not your healthiest or not, like this isn't my favorite time of my life.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: Those are moments probably where you were flowing less, where you were puddled more.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: And I just love the place where you're at right now.
49:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm I just am so excited for you and where you're going and what you're doing, because apart from whether you get this right or that right or this wrong or that wrong, you're in flow.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: And I just don't know of a better place for the human mind and spirit and psyche, the human animal to be.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: Being in flow is beautiful, and I'm so happy that you're there.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: So I affirm you, friend.
49:54
SPEAKER_06: Thank you, Luke.
49:55
SPEAKER_06: That that's it, that wraps us up.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
49:58
SPEAKER_06: And now we'll just let the music bed play, you know.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm dancing.
50:02
SPEAKER_01: People can't see it, but I'm dancing.
50:06
SPEAKER_06: Crafted Connections is lovingly produced by Calhoun Creative Consulting, a strategic storytelling firm dedicated to helping people and brands tell their stories in a way that resonates.
50:17
SPEAKER_06: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and connect with us on Instagram at Crafted Connections Pod.
50:23
SPEAKER_06: Keep creating, keep connecting until we meet again.