Latest / Carne Cruda Podcast / Derroteros: El Jardín, con Santiago Alba Rico (CARNE CRUDA EXTRA)

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Derroteros: El Jardín, con Santiago Alba Rico (CARNE CRUDA EXTRA) · Carne Cruda Podcast

0:06
Goodbye goes equally course. Close it well, road in the middle direction taken
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to reach the end, proposed set of data that indicate the way to reach
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a place, but that we leave direction that is given in writing. For
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Maria Diaz German, it is going to be in the end people' s
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book that contains a defeat then a line marked on the tidal map to guide
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the pilots their broken course stop going. Roso think walking with Santiago Alba,
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Rico santi and how you are. Well, Javier, nice to hear from
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you again. Yeah, with Lustralgia from our Friday rides. Yes, well,
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let us behave the spirit and your nostalgia we will satisfy her by taking
1:06
a walk around the letter jota, What words you have discarded with the letter
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jota and what words chosen afterwards, Well, you have cast over all three.
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I have discarded wild boar, which I liked very much to tell the
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myth of the wild boar of Galidón. Joy is thrown out, which is
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a word, scruple, which I like much more than other synonyms such as
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joy or contentment. And I threw away Jarro with a lot of difficulty.
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And I' m gonna tell you why I threw out. Jar. The
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discarded one because something unexpected happened to me and it is that I went to
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the Prado Museum recently passing through Madrid, looking for a concrete painting and naturally,
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I remained as always, enthralled in the garden of the Delicias del Bosco.
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Then it occurred to me that, although I wanted above all to insist
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on the importance of jars from a poem that you will remember very well decislava
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Skinborska, the great Polish poet the Nobel Prize in Literature in the nineties.
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Well, in the end, he puts it aside. But I don'
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t want to start without remembering that very verecious poem, which is a poem
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about a painting by Wermer called the milkmaid, which he just says. That
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' s what it says. That' s what it says. As long
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as that woman at the Rigis Museum, with that calm and focused paint,
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keeps pouring milk from the jar into the bowl, she won' t deserve
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the world. The end of the world, you see a peasant pouring milk
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from a jug into a bowl and I don' t know if in the
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end I won' t try to unite the jar with the word I have
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chosen, which is obviously a garden, a word that will allow us to
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have a corny and light conversation very Frenchy, very Frenchy. Well, in
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fact, it' s a word against what others always choose. Words that
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come from the Latin, sometimes rarely from Arabic. This comes from the French
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Jardán, which in turn comes from the French Yart that in turn comes from
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the German Gard from where the German Garthn and the English very well known for
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all the students of English Garden and this Germanic root. The origin meant fenced
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or fenced enclosure or enclosure, so a garden was any enclosure that hung a
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natural terrain. In Latin it was called Ortus, from where our garden comes
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it is, in fact, to put doors to the field. To the
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country. It' s a very nice idea and to see even to me
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it seems that that' s the interesting thing about the garden, what is
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it to put doors to the field? But there are different types of gardens.
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There are different types of gardens and I guess thousands of types of gardens.
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There are English gardens, there are French gardens, there are Arab gardens.
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Every culture and civilization has developed its model, its garden model, but
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almost always from mythical gardens, because there are mythical gardens. I would like
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to speak specifically four of four gardens, of four gardens that somehow give the
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measure of how far you can get with this good idea, which is the
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garden and the idea of putting doors into the field. The most famous,
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of course, the Eden. The most famous is that of Eden, obviously,
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that our conversations always come out over and over again that you know that
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den is usually used with the same meaning as paradise the Greek translation of the
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famous of the seventies, in which Philon of Alexandria participated from the Bible,
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for he translated the Hebrew word that corresponds to our garden, which was given
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by the word for Leisses, which in turn had of the term Persian parts
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that mean effect, garden park or garden and Eden, for its part,
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is a Hebrew word. It seems that of Sumerian origin Edin, which would
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mean plain, would refer to a particular region of the East called Eden,
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in which this would be precisely that garden, the earthly paradise to enjoy.
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We do not know how long, some days, some weeks, some months
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of an idyllic life in our mythical first parents to Dan and Eve was God
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' s garden, the Garden of Javeh. And here it is also important
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to see to what extent it is decisive in the idea of garden, the
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fact that it is closed, because if you remember Dan and Eve, after
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yielding to the temptation to eat the fruit, the tree, the good and
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the evil, you are expelled, that you are expelled. It means there
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' s something out there and it' s something out there, by contrast,
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that it' s hostile, it' s rough, it' s
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threatening like it' s happening. Not to say that in some way,
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God locks Adam and Eve in a fenced enclosure to protect them from the outside
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and when they behave badly like children, the disconcerting ones, for he expels
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them to that hell that is the world that we have said before, for
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it is the only paradise that we can, and that is one of the
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mythical gardens that maybe three then look. The other would be, for example,
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the Garden of Hopes. You won' t remember that when, because
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of it, Zeus condemns Heracles to Hercules to undertake his famous twelve works,
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one of them is to steal apples from the Garden of Hopes. The sperides
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are three nymphs called egle Eritha and Wait they mean reciprocally shining West, Earth
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Forgiveness, Shine, Red Earth and Sunset, which have been entrusted to guard
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alongside a dragon named Ladon, these golden apples belonging to the goddess Hera.
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By the way, those apples, and this is also singular the fact that
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it is always the apple. Those apples are the source of immortality and you
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will remember that Heracles steals it, deceiving the atlas. In some versions of
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the myth he is the father of the nymphs, of the other perides for
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other versions of only one relative. But in any case, he' s
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there, in that garden, he' s the only one who can touch
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those apples, apart from the three nymphs, and you' re holding the
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sky on his back, the sky dome, and then Hercules Heracles, who
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is the shrewd one, can convince him to put his shoulders down for a
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while on the celestial sphere and go to the tree apples. He does so
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in the back, but when he sees himself free of that weight, he
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decides to leave Heracles, carrying his backs from the celestial dome, Heracles reacts
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quickly and again with a plot, as he convinces him to give him the
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apples and recover the weight of the celestial dome and thus, fulfills Heracles submission
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and atlas continues to fulfill his terrible to hold the celestial dome. It'
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s kind of interesting about apples. I think we have once talked about the
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apple, the apple, because it is so important in all these myths,
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because in the Greeks it is also the apple of discord that provokes the Trojan
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War and, of course, in the case of the Garden of Eden,
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because the apple is the tempting fruit that then leaves traces in all popular literature
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until it reaches, for example, the stepmother of Snow White, who tempts
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white Caribbeans with a red apple. That' s to remember that in Latin
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bad and apple they said the same was called Malum and it' s very
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rolling. All Renaissance painters who begin to place in the trees of paradise,
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large and appetizing red apples, echo the translation made by St Jerome in the
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fourth century. The famous vulgate in which the tree of good and evil is
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spoken of Boni and Mali, that is, of goods and apples, of
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the tree of the paraso was populated with goods and apples. It' s
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two goods, it' s two evils. We know how that apple identifies
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with the woman, with the woman' s breasts, with the woman'
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s cheeks, the appetizing woman and, at the same time, the source
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of evil. But the apple is important. Instead, you take a look.
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One interesting thing is that the third garden I wanted to occupy that Garden
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of the Delights of Bosco, which is a triptych. As you know,
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there are a lot of arguments about when that painting was painted. We are
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told that youth at the end of the fifteen, others at the beginning of
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the sixteen. It is not known when it was painted, but it is
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very difficult not to stay eternally enthralled. In front of these three panels a
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larger central one, the others to the right, to the left smaller,
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which represent also does not know very well what, but come on. It
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seems clear that the panel on the left represents precisely the Garden of Paradise,
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the Garden of Eden, and there we see to the right, to extraordinary
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compositions You have the center rather to the right of God, in the form
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already of Christ of Christ, of the incarnate God, who is presenting the
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two newly created human beings, holding Eve hand in hand to present her to
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Adam. And there it is curious, because in the panel of paradise,
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of the garden of paradise, there are two trees and none is an apple
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tree. There is a dredge that would represent the tree of life and at
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the bottom on the right there is a palm full of fruits that would be
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the tree of good and evil. And then it' s disturbing. I
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recommend that I was there the other day, and naturally, I spent many,
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many, many minutes going over those details that at other times made me
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feel restless and emboldened. And there, in this paradise we already have,
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we already have a shadow of evil. The devil doesn' t show either.
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But if you look and I invite the listeners to do it on the
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bottom, in a pond in the dark times and there are strange animals.
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On the left there is something that completely disagrees with what is from the version,
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the version of genesis remember, that remembers that there is still no death
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and that in animals, even the most ferocious, they treat each other with
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affection and tenderness. However, there to the left that was of the pond
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we see a cat that carries between the jaws to blink a mouse and we
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see another animal eating already an animal. Thus, death is somehow already entering
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Paradise from below. And there are a number of strange animals. There is
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a kind of rinco ormito, they are submergi water with a tail like pps
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and a series of small mouse creatures. It is still like the shadow of
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evil that penetrates paradise. The second parl which is the most famous, which
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is called the Garden of Delights, although it seems one of the interpretations is
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that it would describe the world as it was in Noah' s time before
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the Flood and probably the Flood God commands it to punish the behavior that we
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can see in that central panel, where at the same time it can be
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said that there is an exuberant nature. They are interpreted as sexual allegories,
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large cherries and large strawberries that these humans eat a little pale, but there
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is everything somehow organic. You remind us of those constructions. Some are blue
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and others are roses that are somehow also part of nature. They' ve
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grown out of nature. They have not been built by human beings and,
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of course, a whole series of scenes, of clearly erotic or sexual scenes,
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in which humans in pairs or in trios, sometimes with animals, practice
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all kinds of sexual acts. And there is a scene to the right in
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which you see down St John the Baptist, which is always depicted, pointing
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to the Savior, to Christ, in this case, accusing once again the
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poor Eve as a source of evil. And in the third panel we have
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the doubt, because an image of hell with those eternal flames in the dark
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background And here are no longer the human beings who eat great fruits, but
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they are a whole series of monstrous animals and those who are devouring human flesh.
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What are those who are devouring human beings. That is the so-
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called Garden of Delights that is perfumed, it was created with the intention of
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moralizing the spectators, those who see the picture, but that is actually full
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of clearly erotic hints, temptations that have to do with the return to nature
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and, of course, with this idea of the world, from the beginning
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somehow gnawed by evil. And this takes me in this room to the other,
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to the garden room, which is a garden that Leopardi describes. When
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we talked about the word end we quoted that wonderful poem, the infinite one
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of Opardi. Lo Bardi wrote me between one thousand eight hundred and seventeen and
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one thousand eight hundred and thirty- two a kind of diary, but not
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personal diary, because it was little given to personal confidences in a diary as
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of culture and thought. I call the dibaldone of the Penigieri, which is
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something like a blend of thoughts. It is cited as the cybaldone, Leopardi
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' s cybaldon. And there in which they have four five hundred twenty-
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six pages are handwritten. It is a barbarity that there is in an April
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message of one thousand eight hundred and twenty- six describes this famous Suffering Garden,
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which is like the counterpoint to the Garden of Eden and as the descent
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on that scale introduced by the Bosque, which still people sin exulting. And
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this is a garden where even plants begin by saying this, saying not only
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in human beings, but the human race. He was and will always be
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unhappy out of necessity. Not the human race alone but all animals, not
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only animals, but all beings, in one way or another, not individuals,
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but species, genera, kingdoms, globes, systems and worlds. And
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then, in that garden with leopard and there everything suffers all the scenes that
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we find wonderful idyllic of natural equilibrium. They seem to hide infinite sufferings from
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him. The bees make massacres in the calyx of the flowers, the trees
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have seen their barks invaded by ants, voracious and the air burrow in the
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sores that have opened in their cuts and then the human beings, the gardeners
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that with the nails or with the iron, arrive upon them, as they
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cut the shoots. So it' s a garden that' s actually a
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hospital where everyone' s convalescent or everyone' s sick. This tremendous romantic
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and afflicted vision Leopardi, who suffered a great deal in his life and who
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moves to this famous passage, this image of the garden, of the suffering
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garden, which is totally counterintuitive, because a garden should never make us think
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of suffering, its rhyme is the vision of nature as a threat in the
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vision of living beings, as competitors, as predators of one another, when
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in reality they do nothing but fulfill a natural cycle that one can also intuitively
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understand as something that is not suffering, but simply the cycle of life is
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not s s s s cmente. So And, in any case, a
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garden because if you are giving orthodox Winnian then you can grant nature. But
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a poet cannot conceive like this a garden, except Leopardi, who was a
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genius, but and has a very gloomy vision of life. In fact,
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there have been great poets. That' s why it' s a complicated
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subject and that' s why I wanted to stick a little bit to mythological
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gardens, because, I don' t know. All poets have since Lope
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de Vega, Octavio Paz, passing through Pedro Salinas and Lordcan, have beaten,
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spoken, or it is with Jogeto Storney. All the poets have spoken
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and all the artists have spoken. Painted or painted gardens, but let'
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s talk about what happens in the gardens. Of course this is interesting.
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They' re used to seeing. This is very important to me, because
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in reality, the first question is what is the opposite of a garden?
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Javier, you might regret that it' s so true, or it'
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s the forest or it' s another garden. I think it' s
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somehow the forest is the opposite a garden, because you' re not ever
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wondering why there have always been gardens now. It is true that people live
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in the cities, but most of the Neolithic and there comes some of the
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most famous gardens, from those of Costantinopla to the Deversalles, because people have
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made gardens. Let' s say in the middle of the field. That
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which you said before you put doors in the field, then they have made
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gardens against the forest. Whereas in the forest nature was free and threatening,
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in the garden nature was reduced to a human scale, respecting in any case,
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for, obviously, the cycles of the seasons and the own internal dynamics
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of growth of the order of the enumerations that is to put order of things.
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Tell that we' ve talked about here before. In fact, what
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the garden does is put order in the forest, exactly that is it seems
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very nice to me, as you have summarized, the garden orders the forest,
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but somehow follow through those doors the forest, more modest forest, a
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forest some sense domesticized, but not but not defeated, because that is why
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it said that perhaps you can also say that the opposite of a garden is
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another garden. I was thinking of two gardens, famous for one, the
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Demersalles, which was designed by André Lennot. This great gardener designer of Luis,
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Louis XIV, all the second half of the 18th century and that we
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all know because I like some autograph. There are many Borg two shrubs cut
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out this very geometric conception of the garden, which is the defeated forest,
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where it is not so much a matter of caring for nature or demonstrating a
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nature on a human scale, but rather of exhibiting and strengthening one' s
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own power over nature. Louis XIV, who was the king, wanted sun
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also through his gardens, to exhibit his absolute power. And the other,
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the counterpoint would be one in a thousand, because there are others smaller and
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more modest and surely even more beautiful. Bray one that because of a man
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I admire respect to a great architect writer, artisan artist who was William Morris,
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this autopic socialist opposed to serial manufacturing, who renovated the entire textile industry
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of England, which brought his garden to the decorations of walls and fabrics.
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William Morris bought a house near Apton, which was called Red House, the
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Red House, where he was precisely completely opposed to this or Victorian concept of
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gardening. Then, apart from more chaotic, a garden is curious because,
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on the one hand, it did have cherry trees, plums, it had
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a lot of trees that were allowed to grow in freedom and, of course,
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it was much more respectful of the trophic pursuit of plants. But at
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the same time it had the thing because it was part of its concept of
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life and society, as it was a more medieval garden. This idea,
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in fact, of like small compartments, like a box inside a box that
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somehow caused it to move from a space collected to an even more collected space,
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seeking the relationship between the intimacy of the human being and the intimacy of
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the natural cycles. I think they' re two gardens totally, totally opposite.
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But then it is true what happens in a garden, because look,
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for example, Calisto and I think the lovers of the Celestina fall in love
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in a garden or in a garden that some place in Salamanca, others in
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Seville and others in Toledo. We don' t know where it is,
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but it was an orchard and they fall in love there too, for example,
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because there is a lot of literature and invited me to bring this time
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closer. The protagonist, the narrator, falls in love. We don'
25:56
t know a name from a novel that I really liked when I read it
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that I remember in a lot of detail, because I liked it very much
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when I was young. I read Georgio Bassani' s Garden of the Ends
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and Continuum is a novel of the year nineteen hundred and sixty, where the
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narrator tells of the relationship he has with the Micol brothers and Alberto, two
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brothers your Jewish origin as the same, who live in a house on the
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outskirts of Ferrara, where there is a large garden. The narrator is in
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love with Micol and everything happens in that garden that he can never forget.
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You always have to jump a tapia, you have to make way to get
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to a more hidden and recollected place that, however, and this we return
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to now, of putting doors to the field, with the port of the
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field, seems somewhat selfish, something like saying, this is my land,
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of private land, like doing in that very cursy tale Oscar Wild, the
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selfish giant, Oscar Gual, who was a provocateur, who ended up in
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jail for homosexual and who made his ingenuity at times cruel to all of England.
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For, however, when he wrote tales, when he became very Catholic,
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because I wrote some tales, very cheesy that one of them was the
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selfish giant, that you don' t remember, that he was a very
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selfish giant, very selfish, that he returns home after seven years and finds
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that the garden is full of children who play then he throws them with warm
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boxes and two things happen. With one side of the children out they don
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' t know how to play and, on the other hand, inside,
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because it has excused the children takes over the winter of the garden and never
27:42
comes to spring. Well, the fact is, in the end, the
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selfish giant that we can imagine, because he understands his mistake, he understands
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that he has been selfish and that the sun and the spring of his garden
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do not come because he exposed the children and let them back in and he
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thinks above all of a child who in the end, because I do not
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spoil, because it is enormously corny the end. But well, this idea
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that the selfish giant finally opens the children from the garden doors, because for
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that to be the doors of a garden to open them. It is necessary
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to fence or gird a territory, but without judging that, that fence as
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a private property. A couple of years ago I read a very good interview
28:32
that I recommend in the country to a gardener Marco Martela, writer and gardener.
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In December of the 22nd, he was interviewed. He lives in France,
28:44
but is of Italian origin, and also made a criticism of very interesting
28:49
versalles and said a very nice thing. He said, to begin with,
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that we need gardens and that the problem is that today in the gardens they
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have lost their aesthetic voice. It said this that I think is important.
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If the beauty of the great trees is as important as oxygen, because beauty
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is not also the oxygen of human beings? I' d say it'
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s not the real oxygen of human beings? We always think of the need
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we have for us, who consume 800 liters of oxygen every day, the
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need we have for the trees that provide it to us. But sometimes I
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wonder if it wouldn' t be better to question the person sensitive to the
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steta that we all carry inside and not to the pragmatic this discourse all the
29:47
time, to remember the thousand functions that the trees perform in every way.
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I believe that in the end they are not effective and that we have to
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protect trees regardless of everything they give us, because they are very, very,
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very, very beautiful and we cannot neglect beauty and ecologism. I would
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tell you to focus more on beauty, at least on the pragmatic advantages of
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trees, because in the end those advantages are the ones that best understand the
30:26
big companies that cut the trees. We must defend the beauty of the hands
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of all these predatory beasts than those who cut them, including our mayors and
30:37
presidents of the Community. If others recently made a podcast about Sierra Nevada and
30:47
talking precisely about the benefits of the nature of the trees, it is that
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one of the human needs is to have those beautiful places to walk, those
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to be confined, those to be lost, that is, beauty is part
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of human needs. Exactly I think that' s fundamental. Remember it you
31:07
know It seems fundamental to me and that' s why it' s no
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nonsense, it' s no banality. As corny as a flower or a
31:17
tree or a bush, a place expressly intended to see a planting grow.
31:27
How a house changes when you plant that when you have a bouquet of flowers,
31:32
which is accurate to change absolutely the atmosphere, the tone, the character
31:37
of a room. Totally because of that and that' s why Marco Martella
31:42
said that the future of the garden is the future of the human being.
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He said caring for the garden involves caring for the world, which is a
31:51
strategic place and adds friendly, so we put doors back on the field.
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It says even if it' s closed, its effect is not on it
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and it is. That' s the point. And then already, to
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finish, Javier, I was wondering there' s some relationship between the jar
32:14
of milk that dumps in the bowl of Bermer' s dairy, about which
32:20
the Cienborska writes that poem so beautiful and the gardens and the garden or that
32:28
has found them a good one. I want to say that I am not
32:35
only in my belief of joining the two words, of also trying the jars,
32:40
but I believe that there is one. What is the point in Bermer
32:43
' s painting, the peasant woman warns of milk eternally. The jar is
32:47
never going to empty, because it' s a painted jug. What is
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the cymbosca telling us with this image. In evoking this image, he is
32:59
not saying that the world will continue to be worthy to be lived as long
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as someone takes care of it, as long as that dairy woman in a
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painting continues to pour milk, as long as there are therefore artists, there
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are painters, there are poets, I have also found gardeners who care for
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squares of land, squares of grass on which the flowers grow. Or simply
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as long as the world will be worthy of being lived and the end of
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the world will not come, as long as there is a sultry maruja up
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of its pot of geraniums, because a granary is also a small thing,
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girded by a pot that is in a private house. And yet we all
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know how important it is in terms of individual survival and worldly survival, for
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each of us to deal with a small thing and especially if it is related
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to nature. A red geranium is a source of survival