Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Purim in Real Time: Israel, Iran, and Holding Complexity
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: Hi everyone. And thank you for being with us again on the Pluralist from both sides of the ocean. And today, a very special ⁓ marking both Purim, sort of happiness and joy, or we'll talk about it, but also a very complex situation here in Israel. Josh, how are you doing at this very precarious time? Josh Weinberg: Well, Bokertov for me, I'll say to you and I wanted to say Chag Purim Sameach, but I'll just stop and say Chag Purim. I don't know if we can say Sameach right now. I don't know if we can say it's a happy moment. But as you said, very, very difficult moment and very confusing, very complex to everyone. I wanted to start with you, Orly. First of all, tell us where you are right now. And I think it might be important to share with our listeners that if there is a siren during this... Through this podcast, we're deepening the conversations that shape our shared future, what Israelis and diaspora Jews can learn from one another, and what we should rightfully expect of each other So if these conversations matter to you, subscribing really matters to us. ⁓ It's how this podcast grows and reaches more people. during this taping that we'll have to pause it and come back to it. But let's keep in mind that you both our producer Noam are sitting in Jerusalem or in Mevasseret and there's that very possibility that sirens may go off. For those of us have our Red Alert app, we're following along with you ⁓ here at home, from here the ocean. So tell us, where are you, are you feeling, what are you doing? Orly Erez Likhovski: please subscribe to the Pluralist Podcast on your YouTube page or wherever you're listening to podcasts. Well, first of all, I have to address the funny hats that we're wearing to those who are watching and not only listening, because I really, really don't like Purim, even at regular times. But then Josh, you put your hat on and I'm like, well, I have to do something. So I put this crown on very reluctantly. I don't know, it's sort of a holiday that is always hard for me to celebrate. I mean, the whole story, the whole plot, know, always people are trying to kill us. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: and ⁓ course the terrible massacre that happens after the Jews are being saved. And obviously the symbolism of now there is a war with Iran, we have been waiting for so long for this to happen, fearing that it's to happen. And there were speculations about it's going to happen in Purim because who can resist the temptation of the unbelievable symbolism of actually attacking Iran on ⁓ Purim. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: right, killing Khamenei which is, you know, even sounds like Haman. So, yeah, so we sort of knew it was coming, but it was sort of walking on egg shells because it wasn't clear when it's going to happen. It's very hard to live in such uncertainty, right? And so you just don't think about it and you go about your whole life just, you know, doing whatever you want. And then, you know, Shabbat morning, we woke up to this siren, which despite the fact that we anticipated it, Still, it caught everyone by surprise. since then, you our life has really, turned upside down. We have been living, you know, from one siren to another. I live ⁓ next Jerusalem. So actually here there were less sirens than in ⁓ the Aviv area. Now in the north, there are a lot of sirens. So but still, we have been, you know, running to the shelter ⁓ every few And I feel lucky because I have a shelter inside my home. There a lot of people who aren't as lucky. Either they have to go to a public shelter or they don't have any shelter whatsoever. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah, we've been seeing a lot of images of people in public shelters with, you know, having public sing-alongs and trying to get along with one another. And also, you know, we are seeing big underground parking lots and shopping malls and even the train stations have been opened up for people to come and sleep there at the night, right? Is that the case? that? Orly Erez Likhovski: you Yeah, yeah, because a lot of people don't have shelters. Some don't have shelters at all in their city, ⁓ ⁓ worst example is the ⁓ in the unrecognized villages in the Negev. ⁓ they hardly have any shelters or any protection whatsoever. ⁓ In places, there are a lot of people. Yeah, right. Josh Weinberg: we saw that things were falling around that area in Beersheva and that area and that's really scary. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, and this is something that Iraq has been dealing with and demanding shelters for veterans in the negative. We actually took it ⁓ the Supreme Court exactly a year ago, and unfortunately the court declined to intervene and we're ⁓ to deal with it. But even in other neighborhoods and cities, a of people lack shelters. And so this is like a huge problem. ⁓ Some are going ⁓ elsewhere or they're finding this provisory temporary solutions. But I can tell you that it's really been very, very difficult since Saturday morning. It's sort of very hard to do anything, really to concentrate on anything because we don't know where we're going. We don't know how long it's going to take. And despite sort of the military success, I have a lot fears, ⁓ lot mistrust ⁓ of both Israeli and American leadership. We really don't know when it's going. Obviously, Purim celebrations have completely changed. Now people are talking that it could take a few weeks. Pesach is going to change as well. ⁓ it's very, very disturbing the fact that we're inside that ⁓ reality and who knows how long it's going to take. Josh Weinberg: ⁓ my gosh. Yeah. And just if you would take us a little bit further in terms of, if this was the first war in many years, maybe that would be a different story. But we just came off a very long war, 843 days, over two years. And what's the feeling of trauma when you hear the sirens and have to go back into the shelters again? after this ⁓ really drawn out period. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it's really hard. mean, everybody's really exhausted. I was just trying to remember when was the last time we had a siren before Saturday morning, and it's been a few months. So, you know, we very quickly go back to sort of a routine, right? And ⁓ it take us back to, you know, to very difficult times. And, you know, the fact that, you know, I mean, the sound of the siren is just ⁓ so scary. And actually morning we had... ⁓ Josh Weinberg: It's terrifying yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: We had a warning of a catbam, how do you say it in English? ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Like a drone, Orly Erez Likhovski: and actually for the first time, ⁓ the warning was the phone started screaming, saying a drone, a hostile drone is on the way. ⁓ like, it's so scary out of the blue ⁓ any warning. So yeah, and then we had to run downstairs. So it's, yeah, it's really, really crazy. On, you know, Saturday, there were dozens of ⁓ sirens during day. And the fact is that everybody's now closed at home. mean, people do go outside just for some shopping and stuff, but are closed. People don't go to work. It seems like ⁓ all over again, right? Like the pandemic, because we're stuck at home. We can't go very far because we have to be near a safe room or a shelter. And ⁓ we know when it's going to happen, but contrary to what happened to the pandemic, right? When it was a global phenomenon, ⁓ it's here, right? So the whole world's sort of... to go on about whatever people are doing. And here it's very, very disturbing. Obviously, people with young kids, they're going crazy. There are no schools, no preschools. ⁓ And knows ⁓ how it's to take. And as you said, it's after many, years of ⁓ obstructed ⁓ if can say. So we are carrying with us ⁓ a lot weight of ⁓ traumas of past. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. let me ask you this though, in pivoting with all of the trauma and all of the difficulty and all of the fear and unknown length of time and going back and forth to shelters and not being able to carry on life ⁓ as, know, as normal, if there's anything, if normal anything that can understand, how ⁓ are Israelis perceiving the war at moment in terms of public opinion in terms of saying, well, you know, despite the people, and I want to talk about what happened in Beit Shemesh in a second also, is there, are you hearing greater support for this effort? And, you know, I think no one is shedding a tear for the death of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, you know, who was really the, as we say, the head of the snake, the of the, you know, the terror machine that has been Iran for the past years. What's your sense of how Israelis are seeing the back and forth of this moment, or many sides to it, the personal versus the public opinion? Orly Erez Likhovski: So I think that sort of on the immediate level, think people are very grateful to the army and to the seems like, you know, a outcome from the military side, right? I mean, we, know, as you said, Khamenei was ⁓ an evil man behind a very, very evil and dangerous regime ⁓ that caused suffering to so many people, not only Israelis, right, but Iranians themselves and many other people. so it's clear that he's that prevented peace or any kind of ⁓ some kind a regional settlement. But on the other hand, people are very skeptical. First of all, because in June, during the last Iran ⁓ war, Netanyahu promised that that's it, know? ⁓ We have so much damage to the Iranian regime that now for... Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Sure. We've obliterated them, we've taken out their military capacity and their nuclear right, all those things. And I think Trump said that also, Orly Erez Likhovski: Exactly. And now he actually said, yeah, for generations to come, you know, we'll have ⁓ we won't have problem with Iran. then, you know, eight months have passed and we're basically in the same spot. And by the way, the same goes with Hezbollah, right? I Hezbollah started again. You know, we started again the war with Lebanon and we just finished it right ⁓ long ago. ⁓ the same goes with Hamas. Right. I mean, Netanyahu said, you Hamas is, you know, obliterated and that's it. But turns out it's not. So people are obviously are very skeptical. Josh Weinberg: Well, I think many. Right, with Hezbollah even more, you after the beeper attack and after the really destruction of the Hezbollah infrastructure, the military experts said, okay, Hezbollah is not a problem anymore. ⁓ turns out that they've joined in now shooting rockets in the north and opening up that whole front. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: right. So I think a lot of liberal Israelis are sort of debating among themselves because obviously the ⁓ natural is we think wars are bad. We ⁓ think military solution could not be the end game. On the other hand, obviously with a regime like Iran, ⁓ like you can't really have the peaceful negotiation because it work. They actually tried right? ⁓ So I for while I understand the need fight terrorism ⁓ and really dangerous regimes, I think it should be done as a part of a comprehensive plan that has some kind of strategy behind it. So that's one step leading some kind of a ⁓ real solution. And neither Netanyahu nor Trump have this ⁓ comprehensive perspective. And a lot of people, rightfully so, mistrust both Netanyahu and Trump because ⁓ Obviously they have other interests around what they're doing. Obviously Netanyahu has the big interest, which is the upcoming elections. There are now a lot of talks about the fact that now he's going to use this military success to actually call for early elections ⁓ as early as June, in he thinks he's gonna succeed ⁓ because are very appreciative of the fact that he... ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yes, in. Orly Erez Likhovski: with a war against Iran. So obviously it's clear. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: In American politics, we would call this the wag the dog theory that, know, nothing else creates this distraction to take away from everything else. you know, for people to not ask for official state inquiry to October 7th and to, you know, his ongoing trial and that, you elections. But correct me if I'm wrong, just as a side note, if elections were to be in June, he would probably have to call them like tomorrow, right? There's a three month lead up as we're now in March. Orly Erez Likhovski: Exactly. Right, right, right. It would have to be very early, but for him it's really good, right? Because it should be as close to this operation as possible, hoping that there won't be a lot of casualties. mean, there have been. 12 Israelis killed by now, but for him, as closer as it is, it's better for him, right? And obviously he wants to distance it from October, right? 27th of October, it sounds like October 7th. That's the date that he's now set for the elections. For him, it's better. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah, people are worried about that, Orly Erez Likhovski: Right. And then, you know, he won't have to deal with exemption from army service of the ultra-orthodox because he's going to say, ⁓ we have elections. We'll do it afterwards ⁓ a budget that he has to pass. He'll say, okay, I'm calling off elections anyway, so I don't have to pass the budget. ⁓ it's sort of ⁓ him, you know, a lot of solutions to many of his problems. And very concerning ⁓ because, know, he actually might be right that does, it does improve his chances ⁓ So. Josh Weinberg: Hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. And I think, um, would you also say that on the Israeli street, uh, that Trump has still, you know, almost hero status for many, um, in terms of, you know going to do Israel's bidding, which is a problem in American politics, I think, but, uh, how do you see that? then I want to pivot for a second. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it's a good question. I don't know if I would say that people see him as a hero, but I think people do appreciate the fact that America backed Israel on the military level, because obviously it's been a very complex operation that has been prepared for many months. I think in Israel actually voicing, raising a voice now against the war is considered very unpatriotic and not very popular. Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: people, including ⁓ leaders, are saying, ⁓ during times of war, we are all united, we're not criticizing the government at all, which is, of course, a very troubling statement because that's your role, right? You have to question the fact who decided on this war, what are the end games of this operation? ⁓ so I think it's important to raise those issues ⁓ they're not being discussed enough ⁓ at all on media, just on the sort of fringes. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: on mainstream media, which is like, the war, our pilots are amazing, ⁓ is amazing, that's great. And that's it. Nobody asks, well, what So I those questions are important to note. And it's, ⁓ yeah. Josh Weinberg: And I imagine they will come. You did mention 12 Israelis who were killed. Can we just take a moment to talk about Beit Shemesh and what happened there tell us little bit about what happened. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so on the Chemesh, nine people were killed, including Some belonged to the same family ⁓ a real tragedy. It's still not completely clear, but some of them were inside the shelter. Some of them stood outside shelter on the stairs. ⁓ So some supposed to be protected and some not so much. And it raises always the question of whether a shelter does provide Josh Weinberg: you Orly Erez Likhovski: enough protection and people keep saying that it does. But it was, ⁓ yeah, it was obviously very, very scary and a very traumatic incident. Still, I think people in general do respect the guidelines and do go to shelters and not ⁓ just say everything be okay. ⁓ even if we this people understand that it's still better to be in the shelter. that sometimes if a missile directly hits the shelter, maybe, it does not provide full protection, but obviously it's better than being outside or just not trying to protect yourself as much as it can. But ⁓ yeah, is, it's like the first two days there weren't casualties and then there was ⁓ people killed in Tel Aviv and some people running to the shelter. And then ⁓ that's really, ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: horrible tragedy. it's, yeah, it's, it is very scary. I, you know, we should say that it seems that the number of missiles that are being shot from Iran has decreased dramatically over the last day or two. So it's nothing like the first two days. And it seems that they don't have a lot of missiles left. And that's why we did get some sleep during the last two nights. So we had like six or, yeah, exactly, exactly. So we had like six or seven hours of sleep during the night. Josh Weinberg: Mm. They're depleting their stack bio a little bit. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: it keeps on going. So obviously it continues disrupting the daily life. We should also note that obviously the war does take a toll of innocent lives in Iran. ⁓ And that's something ⁓ Right. Right. Right. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: really critical and important in the way you saw that a girl's school was hit. you know, especially the Iranian people who just in January, you know, went out to protest and you know, general the Iranian ⁓ slaughtered, you over 30,000, 30,000 people. I mean, it raises so issues and, you know, who is protesting? ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: and who's trying to hold the regime accountable for that. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and also I think it raises the question about whether it is possible through military intervention, you actually change a regime, right? I mean, I don't think we have a real precedent for that, in the last 50 ⁓ or years. And so ⁓ while it's that ⁓ this massacre protesters in Iran was terrible and the world needed to help them, I'm not sure this operation would... Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: make a sustainable change possible? And it's a question. Obviously, it needs to be something that is coming from within. And we haven't seen, ⁓ think, over the last few days, the protests, ⁓ going into the streets. But should say it's complicated. I think a lot of people have very, very clear answers. Either we are completely for the war or we're completely against the war. I should say it's complicated. I think a lot of people have very, very clear answers. Either we are completely for the war or we're against the war. Josh Weinberg: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: And as always, things are much more complicated and we definitely have to address the suffering that is caused by the war and the suffering that is caused was caused by the regime before that. the fact that Israelis have been under this threat of destruction from Iran for so many years, which is insane in and of itself, right? Which brings us actually back to Purim. And as always, things are much more complicated and we definitely have to address the suffering that is caused by the war and the suffering that is caused was caused by the regime before that. the fact that Israelis have been under this threat of destruction from Iran for so many years, which is insane in and of itself, right? Which brings us actually back to Purim. Josh Weinberg: have lot to say about Purim and I want to bring out, maybe I'll just say, just on the complexity of what you said in terms of how people should feel about the war. I'll share a little bit about the view from ⁓ here, the US, is I think complexity is again, it's a bit overused as a term, but I think that's exactly the moment right now. I think many ⁓ in the mainstream of the center. you know, at least the North American Jewish community are first trying to express their solidarity our Israeli brothers and sisters who are, you know, having to go to shelters and everything that we just talked about ⁓ and living under very, very real life and death threat. I mean, that's, that is serious. So first, before we get into analysis and, you know, opining, us first establish that, ⁓ sense of solidarity and, you know, that we are mourning the losses of the people who were killed and feel very, very bad about that, of course. And then I think we get into some of the political analysis. There are those on the left who said this is a totally superfluous that is going to lead not only to the deaths of Israelis, Iranians, people around the Middle East. that Iran has retaliated to Dubai, to Saudi Arabia, which may hope in uniting the Sunni world in the region with Israel against the Iranian threat. There are those on the left also who have said, why are you attacking Iran right now? They do not pose an imminent threat. ⁓ don't know where they're getting their information from. or what makes them necessarily military and security experts in terms of the ability to say with 100 % certainty that no, this does not an imminent threat. I be a little bit more, let's say modest and humble in my assessment, not being in the ⁓ inner of the security establishment. There's no question who Khamenei is and there's no question who Iran is. And I remember reading Ronan Bergman's book in 2009, talking about their, you know, sort of far reaching web of terror that goes to Argentina, to Europe, to, you know, the United States all over the place. 100 % right. And then, you know, who funded Orly Erez Likhovski: and all their proxies surrounding Israel of course. Josh Weinberg: even the attacks of October 7th, you know, with the three proxies, the three main proxies, know, Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis, all being sourced, you know, sourced from Iran. And I think, you know, we shouldn't, ⁓ you be too sad. ⁓ No one is shedding a tear here for Khamenei. And there's a very Orly Erez Likhovski: Amen. Josh Weinberg: powerful segment of the show Oyvim Enemies, that aired on Khan 11, the Channel 11 documentary series that goes into great depth about him and who he is. And so, you know, it's worth watching. But the other thing that people are critical of is the process and the decision making process, essentially. So the fact that the president United States does not have constitutional power to declare war, a big deal to just ⁓ those processes not go through Congress. that's one big issue. And the second big issue is really looking at, at the plan. As you, as said that neither Netanyahu or Trump have a day after plan. Many are making the comparison to the Bush administration in 2003 when it attacked Iraq, know, sort of in the aftermath of September ⁓ and wanting to weed out terror and for regime change and, you know, bringing democracy to the Middle East. And they toppled the evil leader. Of course, didn't find the stockpiles of nuclear and chemical weapons that ⁓ had been And it entered the United States into a quagmire in Iraq for, you know, a decade and a half at least, you know, and then Afghanistan as well. So I think, you know, some are saying, you know, where do you see this going? We do not want to be embroiled in a war with the Iranians for the next, you know, however many years. And also, you and also the fact that Trump had Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: campaigned on the promise of ending wars and not beginning them, in which case now he's begun many more wars. You know, and it's different than just extracting a leader like in Venezuela and putting him on trial, where there's also not necessarily regime change. So there's a big question here as to what the plan is and who from the inner circle of 88 Islamic clerics who are just below the Ayatollah may fill in his place ⁓ what his MO will be going Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I actually want to say two similarities between Netanyahu and Trump. what you said, first of all, Netanyahu also did not convene the government or even the cabinet, is, know, like a smaller group within the government to actually decide on the military. Yeah, on the military operation, which is also insane, right? So basically he decided this probably by himself. So it's like Trump. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Like the security cabinet, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: And the other thing is that Netanyahu has been known for many years to be very cautious and not to go, you know, to enter wars without really, really having no other choice. Okay. So for many years, people have said it's good, right? That he's very cautious. He's very, he's trying to, you know, prevent, you know, military operations as much as he could. And since October 7th, this has changed. Right. Right. Right. And, and, and since October 7th, this has completely changed. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. and to minimize casualties on our side, right? Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: So since October 7th, is waging these wars on so many fronts, also because he has some other interests on his mind, right? His political interests, Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, he basically wants to be acquitted from the charges of October 7th, right? He wants to show, ⁓ you he wants people to forget that he was not, know, ⁓ prepared for October 7th ⁓ right after October 7th attack. And he wants to show, ⁓ now I'm taking control, right? Yeah, right. He wants to be absolved of the charges of what people think about ⁓ 7th and to show, you know, I'm taking the initiatives and I'm actually, you know, protecting Israel. Now, it's interesting that after ⁓ war in June, Josh Weinberg: No, is that? Yeah. He wants to be absolved of, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: were polls and people were asked, ⁓ you now have, ⁓ your opinions of Netanyahu has changed after the war with Iran? And people said, a majority of Israelis said, ⁓ the Iran operation was successful, but we still remember what happened on October 7th. And we ⁓ believe that Netanyahu is to blame for that. So he wasn't able to, you know, shake this off him ⁓ a previous war. It's interesting to see what's going to happen now, right? Obviously we're further away from October 7th. you know, he wants people to forget, right? We don't have any state commission of inquiry. ⁓ hope that people, you know, are not going to forget this terribly traumatic incident event. And despite, ⁓ you even if some people see it as a military success, don't forget, you know, the really terrible tragedy that he still needs to account for. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. And it's my sense, of course, and tell me if you think, you know, if you disagree, that there will always be people in the Bibi camp who will sort of drink his propaganda like Kool-Aid and say, you know, agree with him that everyone else was at fault except for him. And then there'll be people in the other camp who will of course see him as the, you know, where the buck stops essentially and that he was prime minister. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, you know, he keeps, know, Netanyahu and others in his government keep blaming both the attorney general and the chief justice of the Supreme Court, right, for everything, right, because they don't allow the government to rule. So I saw people, right, joking to me on social media, well, Kol Akavod, kudos for the attorney general and the chief justice of the Supreme Court for the great war with Iran, right, because obviously if they're to blame for the failures, they should be accounted for the successes. But it works only to one side, of course. Josh Weinberg: Right. Yes. Yes. Only one way. Yes, exactly. And Netanyahu was on Fox News the other night and he, first of all, he looked terrible. And I'm sure he has not slept despite fact that he had blamed October 7th that they didn't wake him up early enough. it's really, it's really a difficult. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: You know, be interesting to see how people hold him accountable for the war and his entire coalition right now, especially those who sort of held the coalition hostage push their agenda to which he capitulated afterwards. But so ⁓ Orly, if we can, ⁓ I know this we're going to airing after Purim, or at least Shushan Purim, if you will, can we talk about the similarities and the unbelievable timing in which this is all happening, and that, you know, some 2500 years there was a Jew named Mordechai ⁓ and... you know, his niece or whatever the relationship there was with Esther, who ⁓ came up to save the Jews. We all know the story against an evil Persian leader who wanted to, you know, the Jewish people. And here we have it all over again. I want to, if we can, tease out some of the lessons from Purim that we think ⁓ are relevant. Orly Erez Likhovski: and Yeah, I think for me in general, even before ⁓ ⁓ unbelievable symbolism, as I said before, treating Purim as this lesson that we should learn, that so many people want to kill us and to annihilate us, and we should ⁓ be very militant to protect ourselves, ⁓ is a very difficult So I think... Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Like my lesson would be to actually be very sensitive to people who are in danger, right? Not just saying, you ⁓ my God, we should just be strong and fight our enemies and be vigilant all the time, which we should, right? To some extent, but this cannot be the thing that drives us all the way, right? Because you can't live on your sword forever. Like you can't, it's not a normal routine. It's not a normal reality. Exactly. Exactly. So I would from this, you know, first of all, Josh Weinberg: Mmm. to live in constant fear, you're saying, or to, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Queen Esther, right, which was, you she said, I have come to this position just for this time, for me to be able to save my people. like, that's a lesson I would take, which is, you know, we have to sort of be understanding of our important role of, know, at this time, and what does it mean for us that we are here, what we should do. And also, as I said, really try to think of people around us who are in danger. Josh Weinberg: Of course. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: And definitely not go around and revenge, right? Through killing people when we are saved, which is something that is insane terrible. Josh Weinberg: So that's, yeah. So you quoted of course the very famous verse from Esther chapter 4 verse 14 and I'm thinking about one, you just to build on what you said, you know, in chapter 3 verse 8 we read, of course, you you know, that there is this one people, right, that's scattered and dispersed among all the other peoples, And they translated that as laws here, their practice, their way of living, their religion, their whole existence is different from anyone else. Okay, so now different from anyone else. ⁓ yeah. That's it. know, all hats are off now. Orly Erez Likhovski: But I'm taking this too. I hate this. Josh Weinberg: from anyone else and they don't abide the King's Laws and this was you know a setup to say look those Jews know let's scapegoat these Jews and we've seen that through time again and we're seeing more and more you know anti-semitism even saying that ⁓ Israel you know twisted America's arm to go to war and it's behalf and we're seeing that and but by way from both far left and the far right you know the MAGA crowd is is angry at Trump right now because ⁓ They said, wait a second, this is not America first. This is not the isolationism that you promised us also. you know, the Jews are manipulating again to go to war on their behalf. So we're seeing those similarities. And I also, as you said, you know, the question in many reform congregations is, know, for our children, family, Purim Megillah readings, should we read chapter nine? You know, where it says very specifically. Jews, they mustered and they fought for their lives and they disposed, they killed their enemies, killing 75,000 of their fathers. my God. Wait a second. You know, let's step back and to say, was this defensive killing? Or was this vengeance? And how do we ⁓ upon this story as having our people who were, let's say, drunk with power and how that's playing out today when we are, once again, fortunately, in my opinion, in a position of power. How's that playing out in the West Bank right now? How's that playing out in Gaza, where numbers are ⁓ similar to the ⁓ that we recorded in the Megillah actually. how do we balance these two lessons? Orly Erez Likhovski: the over the last two and a half two years. Yeah Yeah, I think for me, the lesson should definitely be that because we were the victims of this terrible, either crimes that actually happened or intentions to those crimes, we should be double sensitive to actually ⁓ preventing terrible things from happening ⁓ and... I think we have to stress the fact that Judaism is a religion that sanctifies life and not death. A lot of people, especially in our government, forgotten this. ⁓ that's important to stress, and you cannot stress it enough. So me, this is a lesson that should be played over and over again, stressed especially during Purim, and especially at this time, especially when we're at war, ⁓ celebrating Purim during is... Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: It's not easy, but we have to remember that, right? That our role is to bring about peace and to bring about justice and to spread death ⁓ or to live by the sword as always. I also want to mention another symbolism ⁓ that Saturday, know, this operation is called in Hebrew, roaring lion, right? And on Saturday, was the day that Yosef Trumpeldor died in Tel Chai. ⁓ at the beginning of the 20th century. And he said, you know, he's famous to say, It's good to die for our country. It's not good to, right. It's not good to die for our country. It's good to live, right? the operation is called roaring lion because he's commemorated with a very famous statue in Tel Chai in Northern Israel of a roaring lion, right? And that's the logo of the operation. But I want, right. Josh Weinberg: It's good to die for one's country, which... Yes, yeah. And Netanyahu actually referenced it in his speech Orly Erez Likhovski: I wanna remember, it because Zionism, the whole point of Zionism was to create a nation like other nations, right? I mean, we have our uniqueness, but you're supposed to be like a normal nation, right? And we are not supposed to live in constant fear for our lives. ⁓ We're supposed to ⁓ normal lives, right? was supposed to actually today to fly to the US ⁓ Josh Weinberg: you Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: Long anticipated visit of two and a half weeks in Chicago, LA and San Francisco and concluding in the CCAR convention in San Francisco. And I was really waiting for it for so long. And I can't, right? Because no, you know, there are no flights, the airport is closed. And it's not, by the way, my daughter is traveling in Europe. She's stuck there. She can't go back home. It's not normal, right? That we can't live a normal life. And I think this is something we have to remind Israelis, especially those who are celebrating, you the government. We understand that sometimes we need to fight back, right, after October 7th, we need to strive for reality of peace and for a reality of, you know, sort of a long-term peace agreement in region. That should be our goal. And, right, this is hardly talked about. People don't talk about peace, right? It has become a word that you cannot even mention ⁓ or you're being accused of being too naive. It's not naivete, right? It's our goal to live here as a normal nation. not fearing for life and not running to the shelter three times a day. That's not normal. And I remember thinking that over the two years after October 7th, that we cannot get accustomed to this. We cannot get used to this reality. It's not normal and we have to remind over and over again. So it's not good to die for our country. It's good to live and we should strive to ⁓ live for our country and to create here a life of equality and of justice. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. to live for the country, absolutely. Orly Erez Likhovski: And this is what we should have in mind, especially now, especially during this forum and especially during this war that I really, really, really hope is going to end soon. Josh Weinberg: Right, and there those who would say that you can't live, you can't have peace and you can't create that kind of normal existence when someone is constantly threatening you and looming over weapons. So we have to be able to deal with that, right? That might be the counterpoint, but of course I agree with you in that everything that can and should be done to advance that obviously should be. And ⁓ of at the moment ⁓ I also supposed to travel in March. right after the CCAR convention to Israel and that is still up in the air. hoping that many of our summer trips will be able to go and people will resume sort of travel as normal. Orly Erez Likhovski: do want to say really a lot of thanks, thank yous to so people from outside of Israel who reached out just to say they ⁓ care about they're concerned, they send their love and it's really helpful. I really want to thank everybody. I've gotten so many messages of support and it's really heartwarming, ⁓ know, at this time. So thank you for that. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Yes, absolutely. And I think that, you know, people here are also, you know, we're in the midst of hitting send on their message about, you know, way back to last Friday when the biggest crisis of our moment was the Kotel ⁓ you know, thinking about that and who people wanted to join in some of the actions. ⁓ quickly pivoted and said, no, let's, ⁓ express our solidarity and, you know, freeing. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and we should definitely say that all bills have been frozen, right, because of the war. So the Knesset is hardly, I mean, they do convene on just few times a week. ⁓ So everything has been sort of shelved, right, including the Kotel bill. ⁓ we're obviously following and monitoring it. if need we'll definitely ask people to go again and ⁓ send the And I really want to thank all those, yeah, mobilize them. And I really want to people who already did that. It's tremendously important and we're on the lookout just to make sure that we are going to fight this back if it ⁓ back to the Knesset. Yeah, thank you so much. And we managed to have a whole episode without a siren. that's good. ⁓ you so much. ⁓ you so much. we're hoping for days of peace and quiet. Thanks. See you in the next episode. Bye bye.