Latest / Story Magic / 129 - Finding writing flow

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129 - Finding writing flow · Story Magic

• 2:14
  Emily: Foreign.
• 2:27
  Rachel: Hey, writers.
• 2:28
  Rachel: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
• 2:32
  Emily: I'm Emily.
• 2:33
  Rachel: And I'm Rachel.
• 2:35
  Emily: And today we are talking about Flow State.
• 2:38
  Emily: How to find it.
• 2:39
  Emily: What is it?
• 2:40
  Emily: I just really, at this episode, me want to pick your brain.
• 2:44
  Emily: Because so recently we had that conversation with Gary, which was amazing, about digital minimalism.
• 2:53
  Rachel: Yes.
• 2:53
  Emily: And writing and all that stuff.
• 2:55
  Emily: And you asked that question about adhd, and it got me, like, thinking about how this topic of attention and focus and, you know, divorcing from tech, like, how that conversation, it feels like, is directed towards certain types of brains, certain types of people.
• 3:17
  Emily: And I think it's applicable.
• 3:18
  Emily: You know, it can be applicable to.
• 3:19
  Emily: To anyone, depending on, like, where the information is coming from.
• 3:22
  Emily: Right.
• 3:23
  Emily: And, like, how you apply it and everything.
• 3:24
  Emily: But specifically, I got.
• 3:27
  Emily: I was thinking about Flow State because after I read Stolen Focus by Johan Hari, I have found that for me, I was breaking up my own access or sort of like blocking my own access to Flow State by using my phone.
• 3:48
  Emily: And so the reason, like, part of how I figured this out, I mean, it's not that.
• 3:51
  Emily: It's not that mind exploding.
• 3:53
  Emily: Like, obviously if you have interruptions to your flow, you're not.
• 3:56
  Emily: It's going to be harder to get into flow.
• 3:58
  Emily: I don't know why my brain exploded, but it actually was, like, really mind opening when I was started to actually pay attention to how my brain, my body were reacting in certain moments.
• 4:10
  Emily: Because one of the things that a lot of these digital minimalism resources ask you to do is, like, pause when you reach for your phone or pause when you reach for a technological distraction and sort of ask yourself, like, what am I distracting from?
• 4:21
  Emily: Like, what is the motivation behind me reaching for my phone right now?
• 4:28
  Emily: And so I found that even when I had, like, in those first few days when I had banished my phone to a specific corner of the room and I was writing, I would reach for my phone whenever I was bored, when I felt uncomfortable.
• 4:45
  Emily: Um, so, like, I didn't.
• 4:47
  Emily: Like, I didn't know how to answer the question in front of me or something like that.
• 4:49
  Emily: Like, I had a split second of, like, then I would reach for a distraction.
• 4:53
  Emily: Um, or in, like, moments of transition.
• 4:56
  Emily: Like, that's usually like, if I'm, like, done with a project and I haven't figured out what I'm gonna do next, I get really distracted very easily.
• 5:01
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 5:03
  Emily: So.
• 5:04
  Emily: So kind of I had that experience of figuring out that if I left my phone and my body got used to the idea that when I'm riding, like, distractions are not nearby.
• 5:13
  Emily: It's so much easier for me to like sink into a scene, sink into focus, sink into flow state.
• 5:20
  Emily: Um, even when I'm not sure what I'm doing, like, even when the scene feels uncomfortable.
• 5:24
  Emily: Like I feel like for me, when I was reaching for my phone during writing sessions, it was sort of reinforcing this idea that I couldn't answer the questions in front of me.
• 5:34
  Emily: Like, I would be like, ugh, I don't know what should happen next in the scene.
• 5:38
  Emily: Or this scene feels like it's going in the wrong direction.
• 5:40
  Emily: So I would reach for my phone, probably open Instagram, like scroll and see other writers writing 5,000 words a day.
• 5:46
  Emily: And it's just like this self fulfilling cycle of like, yeah, your scene sucks and you suck and like I said, everything sucks.
• 5:51
  Emily: Or I would like reach for my phone to text a friend.
• 5:54
  Emily: Being like, this is so hard and it's like, well, that's just reinforcing the idea that it's hard.
• 5:57
  Emily: Like if I don't have it there, if I can't reach for it five seconds later, I usually have some indication, some instinctive idea of like, where I should take the scene next.
• 6:05
  Emily: It's sort of like that I need silence and I need space to tap into my intuition.
• 6:09
  Emily: Yeah.
• 6:11
  Emily: And if I'm not, like, my phone was not allowing me to do that.
• 6:14
  Emily: And so that was sort of backed up for me in this book, Stolen Focus, where Johann Hari has this whole chapter on how tech is kind of stealing that ability to focus.
• 6:25
  Emily: And he says to find flow, you need to choose one single goal, make sure your goal is meaningful to you, and try to push yourself to the edge of your abilities.
• 6:35
  Emily: And once you've created these conditions, you hit flow.
• 6:37
  Emily: You can recognize it because it's a distinctive mental state.
• 6:40
  Emily: You feel you are purely present in the moment.
• 6:41
  Emily: You experience a loss of self consciousness.
• 6:44
  Emily: You in this state, it's like your ego has vanished and you have merged with the task.
• 6:47
  Emily: Like you are the rock you are climbing.
• 6:50
  Emily: And I feel like that's, that's kind of how it felt for me.
• 6:52
  Emily: I was like, oh, yeah, that's what I'm experiencing these days when I'm writing is.
• 6:56
  Emily: I think part of it is that flow state has to be a little difficult.
• 7:00
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 7:00
  Emily: Um, and I was like, oh, that's why I reach for my phone.
• 7:03
  Emily: Cause it's difficult.
• 7:03
  Emily: And like my brain doesn't want to do hard things, so it searches for that distraction.
• 7:08
  Emily: So anyway, that was kind of my whole experience.
• 7:10
  Emily: And I wanted to bring this to you because I know you write very differently and I honestly am just super curious.
• 7:16
  Emily: Like, how do you find flow state?
• 7:19
  Emily: Like, is that similar?
• 7:21
  Emily: Do you have a similar experience to me in terms of the distractions and how they affect your ability to sink into scenes?
• 7:26
  Emily: Like, I just, like, I'm super curious.
• 7:30
  Emily: Your thoughts.
• 7:30
  Rachel: I'm.
• 7:31
  Rachel: I'm really excited to talk about this and I was going to ask you to define what flow is for our listeners if they haven't heard it.
• 7:38
  Rachel: But it sounds like that definition just did that.
• 7:41
  Rachel: So will you read the latter half of it one more time?
• 7:44
  Rachel: Like, what it feels like.
• 7:47
  Emily: So he has these, like, what he says, right?
• 7:50
  Emily: And this is his.
• 7:51
  Emily: His research, his opinion.
• 7:52
  Emily: He's a journalist, he's not a researcher.
• 7:54
  Emily: But he says that flow for.
• 7:57
  Emily: For it to be flow, you have to have a single goal.
• 7:59
  Emily: Make sure your goal is meaningful to you and try to push yourself to the edge of your abilities.
• 8:04
  Emily: And then he says the.
• 8:05
  Emily: What you asked what it feels like is you're purely present in the moment.
• 8:09
  Emily: You experience a loss of self consciousness and it's like your ego has vanished and you have merged with the task.
• 8:16
  Rachel: Yeah, I think that second half is more true for me.
• 8:20
  Rachel: But like, flow, when I think of what flow is, it is that feeling of everything else just kind of melts away and that merging with the task idea.
• 8:32
  Rachel: So not that distractions are not present because I cannot eliminate distractions.
• 8:40
  Rachel: And actually having more distractions tends to help me focus better, which I know you hate.
• 8:45
  Rachel: So I, I will talk about that.
• 8:47
  Emily: Yeah, I have so many questions about that.
• 8:49
  Emily: But continue.
• 8:50
  Rachel: Yeah, but like, okay, so for me, I first heard of.
• 8:54
  Rachel: I have a lot of like, kind of icky, like weight with the word flow.
• 9:00
  Rachel: Not that I have any problem with how I experience it.
• 9:02
  Rachel: I really do love finding flow state and getting into that very focused workspace.
• 9:09
  Rachel: But I first heard of flow in like 2014, 2015.
• 9:17
  Rachel: I was working at the job I had at the time, which you know what it was.
• 9:21
  Rachel: And our co founders were super into this idea of flow.
• 9:25
  Emily: Oh, really?
• 9:25
  Emily: I haven't heard this story.
• 9:27
  Rachel: No, they were all about flow and like, they wanted all of the engineering team to find flow at all points of the day.
• 9:34
  Rachel: And if they were in flow, you could not interrupt them.
• 9:37
  Rachel: And. And we were doing everything we could possibly do to like, eliminate distractions and find flow.
• 9:42
  Rachel: And like, it just the way that I think they pursued flow to me, always felt like you are a married white man with no other responsibilities.
• 9:52
  Rachel: And this is accessible to you because you have the ability to ignore everything else.
• 9:59
  Rachel: And like, my job at the time I was doing customer service, where if the phone rang, I had to answer it.
• 10:05
  Rachel: That was my job.
• 10:06
  Rachel: If there was an email that came into the support inbox, I had to answer that email.
• 10:10
  Rachel: So, like, the way that they talked about this concept, I was like, of course that's so easy for you because you are someone who has the privilege to turn off everything else and just decide you're not going to let it interrupt you.
• 10:24
  Rachel: And so it became, like, really frustrating for them to talk in all of our meetings about how, oh, I'm in a flow.
• 10:32
  Rachel: I'm in flow.
• 10:33
  Rachel: Don't bother me.
• 10:34
  Rachel: And I'd be like, it's my job to bother you.
• 10:36
  Rachel: Like, I have to.
• 10:36
  Rachel: You have to do your fucking job.
• 10:38
  Rachel: Yeah. So it was very annoying at first for them to put this pressure on, like, flow being the ideal work state.
• 10:49
  Rachel: And if you weren't in flow, the pressure was that you weren't getting good work done.
• 10:56
  Rachel: And as someone who, at the time, I was undiagnosed, but I had all the same habits.
• 11:03
  Rachel: So I'm like, looking back, being like, well, duh, you can never find it because they're wanting you to sit in a quiet room with the door shut and no one's allowed to talk to each other.
• 11:12
  Rachel: Like, that was never going to work for you.
• 11:15
  Rachel: So at the.
• 11:16
  Rachel: Like, I really kind of hated that word when they would describe it, But I really needed that state where I could just do work and feel merged with the task.
• 11:25
  Emily: Yeah.
• 11:26
  Rachel: So I did a lot of things that they hated.
• 11:33
  Rachel: So, like, and I still do this.
• 11:35
  Rachel: And I. And I. This is something that you and I have talked about or that you're familiar with.
• 11:40
  Rachel: Like, I need to.
• 11:41
  Rachel: Okay, this is when I can find ideal flow state.
• 11:44
  Rachel: I have a video game stream on my computer.
• 11:48
  Emily: I'm already cringing.
• 11:50
  Rachel: I know.
• 11:50
  Rachel: So, like, I would have my phone on, on a stream and be like, listening to it while I'm working.
• 11:56
  Rachel: And my boss would walk by and be like, are you watching video game streams?
• 12:00
  Rachel: And I'm like, yeah, but I'm getting so much work done.
• 12:02
  Rachel: I'm making all these presentations.
• 12:03
  Rachel: I'm getting all these trainings ready.
• 12:04
  Rachel: And they'd be like, what the hell?
• 12:04
  Rachel: And I'm like, this is just how I do it.
• 12:07
  Rachel: Like, I need something else to help me focus.
• 12:10
  Rachel: So that translated continually through my workspace.
• 12:14
  Rachel: But now when I need to be merged with a task, I do Feel like because my brain constantly searches for stimulation, I have to appease that stimulation.
• 12:26
  Rachel: So I can put on a video game stream or I can have the TV on, but the only.
• 12:33
  Rachel: The only thing that's important about it for me is that I can't be super interested in it.
• 12:39
  Rachel: So, like, I'm not gonna put on a TV show that I actually want to pay attention to.
• 12:46
  Rachel: It has to be, like, the office where I've seen it a gajillion times.
• 12:49
  Rachel: Or it has to be, like, a video game stream where it's just noise in the background.
• 12:53
  Rachel: And I'm not necessarily, like, tied to the video game that we're playing.
• 12:57
  Rachel: I'm just, like, getting the.
• 13:00
  Rachel: The sound to, like, appease the thread of my brain that can't stop.
• 13:05
  Rachel: I think I've described this to you before.
• 13:06
  Rachel: I feel like my brain has three constant train of trains of thought.
• 13:10
  Rachel: One is, like, the active task that I'm doing.
• 13:12
  Rachel: Like, one is a song that I'm singing in my head, and then one is just like, that's the one that needs to be appeased all the time.
• 13:20
  Rachel: So that's where the video game stream comes in, is like, if I've got three things going, I can block everything else out and I can, like, focus in on the task.
• 13:29
  Emily: Yeah.
• 13:29
  Rachel: That I'm doing.
• 13:31
  Rachel: Um, so then when I find it
• 13:33
  Emily: distinct from multitasking, though.
• 13:35
  Rachel: Absolutely. Well, I mean, I.
• 13:38
  Emily: Which I feel like, can be a misunderstanding of, like, the ADHD experience.
• 13:43
  Emily: Right.
• 13:43
  Emily: For people who don't.
• 13:44
  Emily: Who aren't living that experience, it's like, oh, you can just do, like, 16 tasks at once.
• 13:49
  Emily: You know, like, you can be, like, working on three intense projects at once.
• 13:52
  Emily: But that's not.
• 13:53
  Emily: At least from what you just described, that seems like that's not quite the case.
• 13:59
  Rachel: I think I naturally work on multiple tasks at once.
• 14:02
  Rachel: I wouldn't necessarily say that I'm in a flow state while I'm doing it.
• 14:09
  Rachel: So, like, you know, when we were talking to Aaliyah earlier about Pinterest, I'm, like, fully locked into that conversation, but I was also, like, looking at slides and, like, being like, okay, I've got.
• 14:21
  Rachel: And that, to me, I wasn't, like, distracted in any way, but I. I had, like, kind of two other trains of thought going at the same time.
• 14:30
  Emily: That's so funny.
• 14:31
  Rachel: You know, when you and I talk and I'm, like, emailing.
• 14:34
  Emily: Yeah.
• 14:34
  Rachel: And I'm, like, responding to an email.
• 14:36
  Rachel: And I know.
• 14:36
  Rachel: I know it.
• 14:37
  Rachel: It's.
• 14:37
  Rachel: It can't be, like, super exciting for the other side to be like, are you paying attention to me?
• 14:42
  Rachel: I'm like, yeah, I actually am paying attention to you.
• 14:44
  Rachel: I can just write this email at the exact same time.
• 14:47
  Rachel: I don't know if I find flow in those moments.
• 14:49
  Emily: Yeah. Well, meanwhile, we're talking to Aaliyah, and the people on our email system are texting, messaging me about stuff.
• 14:56
  Emily: And every time I read a message, I completely blanked out.
• 14:59
  Emily: Like, there were, like, three moments in that conversation where I was like, I have no idea what Aaliyah just said, because I, like, looked over at the text box I was having with the support people.
• 15:07
  Emily: It's so.
• 15:08
  Emily: Yeah. And so that's.
• 15:09
  Emily: I think that's why I wanted to bring this.
• 15:11
  Emily: That's why I was excited to bring this conversation, because I feel like it's really important for writers to understand that your brain is in your brain, and you might resonate with what Rachel's saying.
• 15:21
  Emily: You might resonate with what I'm saying.
• 15:23
  Emily: And the only thing that's gonna work is what helps you find flow state.
• 15:28
  Emily: And I think what was so interesting to me was just sort of this definition of flow state.
• 15:33
  Emily: Right.
• 15:33
  Emily: And then doing the actions to.
• 15:36
  Emily: I've been experimenting a lot, as I mentioned in the interview with Gowry, with, like, how do I find flow?
• 15:40
  Emily: Right?
• 15:43
  Emily: Like, how do I get into my book?
• 15:43
  Emily: And the thing that's been so helpful for me is, like, I'm actually having fun.
• 15:50
  Emily: Like, I'm having fun with my first draft.
• 15:52
  Emily: And I think so much of that has to do with not engaging with those negative parts of my brain.
• 16:00
  Emily: Right.
• 16:00
  Emily: And those negative parts of my brain are the parts of my brain that, in the moment when I'm writing where it gets difficult or, like, I'm reminded that I have no idea what I'm doing and that I just have to follow my gut.
• 16:10
  Emily: Right.
• 16:11
  Emily: Which I hate.
• 16:12
  Emily: In those.
• 16:12
  Emily: Those split seconds where that's happening, I used to reach for my phone and, like, engage with that voice.
• 16:19
  Emily: Yeah. And, like, allow it to, ha, like, infiltrate my head.
• 16:22
  Emily: And so when I was writing Molten and when I was writing Project Storm last summer, like, it was such a fraught experience writing that first draft because I. I was just engaging with those voices so much more.
• 16:32
  Emily: And I'm realizing as I wasn't finding flow state.
• 16:35
  Emily: And so I had this misconception that flow only came when I knew what I was doing and I was having fun.
• 16:41
  Emily: And now I'm realizing, like, that doesn't have to be true.
• 16:44
  Rachel: Right.
• 16:45
  Emily: Because if I just banish my phone from the room and, like, don't even have.
• 16:48
  Emily: You know, and I have.
• 16:49
  Emily: I can hear it.
• 16:50
  Emily: It's on the other side of the door.
• 16:51
  Emily: If my child's school calls or my husband needs me or whatever.
• 16:54
  Emily: Like.
• 16:55
  Emily: Or if you need me, like, there's certain people who can get through.
• 16:57
  Emily: Like, I'm not saying, like, it is a privilege to be able to completely turn off and, like, my child at school.
• 17:02
  Emily: Right.
• 17:02
  Emily: Which is a privilege.
• 17:04
  Emily: Um, but if I'm able to create that environment for myself, like, it's just so much more fun to write because I'm not letting that little voice get any traction.
• 17:12
  Emily: Um, I'm just writing forward and I lose myself in the scene, and it's great.
• 17:16
  Emily: And I'm kind of realizing I can manufacture that a little bit.
• 17:19
  Emily: Where before I was just being like, oh, a fairy will strike me one day and it'll be fun for 5% of the time that I'm working on this draft.
• 17:27
  Rachel: Yeah. Do you.
• 17:28
  Rachel: How long do you find that you can stay in a state like that?
• 17:35
  Emily: It's usually like, max two hours.
• 17:39
  Rachel: Yeah. Do you find that you get really tired after?
• 17:42
  Emily: Yeah, I get tired and I get distracted.
• 17:45
  Emily: That's the other thing I've noticed is, especially if I kind of pull out of it too early, like, I have to go pick up my kid, and I'm like, you know, I'm deep in flow state, and then I have to step away from it.
• 17:57
  Emily: It can be really jarring for me.
• 17:58
  Emily: Cause then my brain is just like, story, story, story, story, story.
• 18:01
  Emily: While I'm trying to, like, hang out with my kid after school.
• 18:03
  Emily: And I feel like I'm in that moment.
• 18:05
  Emily: I'm like, I'm not present with you.
• 18:06
  Emily: And I know I'm not present with you because I can't do two things at once.
• 18:08
  Emily: And my head is still in flow state, and I'm or wants to be in flow state.
• 18:11
  Emily: And I'm, like, trying to play Legos with you, which is, like, infinitely less interesting to my brain.
• 18:18
  Emily: Not my heart, but my brain.
• 18:20
  Emily: So I do find that if I. Yeah, if I have to get cut, like, I probably need a space there.
• 18:26
  Emily: Like, if I have to.
• 18:27
  Emily: If I have to go.
• 18:28
  Emily: If I know at 3 o', clock, I'm gonna have to go pick her up in an hour.
• 18:31
  Emily: Right?
• 18:31
  Emily: Like, give myself 15 minutes to, like, just.
• 18:34
  Emily: You need to come chill out.
• 18:35
  Emily: Like, come down from it.
• 18:37
  Emily: But, like, these are all things I'm learning.
• 18:38
  Emily: And I do feel like it's the space of not having so much access to my Phone is allowing me to like really explore some of that stuff that before I was just not sitting with and just not paying attention to.
• 18:49
  Rachel: Yeah, I, I feel the same in both aspects.
• 18:54
  Rachel: Um, I, I can lock.
• 18:56
  Rachel: So one of the major indicators of or one of the experiences that a lot of ADHD people have is hyper focus.
• 19:06
  Rachel: And I do think that when I have a. Given my brain enough stimulation, it's pretty easy for me to hyperfocus on things which I find like similar to the flow state process.
• 19:18
  Rachel: I don't know if I could define them separately.
• 19:20
  Rachel: The only thing that I feel like is different in my experience is that I've never hyper focused to the point of forgetting to eat because food is like such a big motivator for me where I'm like, I will eat anything always.
• 19:32
  Rachel: So I, I don't think I'm ever going to prioritize a task over food.
• 19:40
  Rachel: But I have heard that's a pretty common behavior when people with ADHD get in this hyper focused flow state.
• 19:50
  Rachel: I feel like it could last for a very long time.
• 19:53
  Rachel: And the last time that I had a huge period of flow state was when I was.
• 20:00
  Rachel: A couple weeks ago.
• 20:02
  Rachel: I was writing an edit letter for one of my clients.
• 20:05
  Rachel: And I mean it was like six hours, but I like took a break for food and then watched a little bit of my stream and then went back, went like right back into writing it because that was.
• 20:17
  Rachel: I had like one more day to finish it before I was going out of town and I wanted to finish it before that.
• 20:24
  Rachel: Um, so I turned on my stream, got my doc open, and then I turned a focus timer on my phone.
• 20:32
  Rachel: Um, and it, I find that smaller chunks of timer time are helpful, like a 30 minute focus timer.
• 20:41
  Rachel: And then when it goes off, I just start it again.
• 20:44
  Emily: So what does that mean?
• 20:44
  Emily: Does that mean like, does that do anything to your apps or anything?
• 20:48
  Emily: Or is it like a. Yeah, I
• 20:50
  Rachel: can't use my apps while it's on.
• 20:52
  Emily: Oh, okay.
• 20:52
  Rachel: Or so I use, I use Focus Friend, which is, I think it's designed specifically for people with adhd, but anybody can use it.
• 21:02
  Rachel: But it's my little nugget app.
• 21:03
  Rachel: Like I have my little bean right here and, and the more that I focus, the more.
• 21:10
  Rachel: What is it?
• 21:10
  Rachel: Socks I get.
• 21:11
  Rachel: And then I can use my socks to buy.
• 21:14
  Rachel: I'm showing Emily on the screen my beans room.
• 21:17
  Rachel: So I bought all those things in my beans room from like focus time.
• 21:23
  Rachel: So I'll set like a 30 minute timer like that and then it, it gives you the option when the timer is over, if you want a distraction break, and then that has a timer, and then when that timer goes off, you can start another one.
• 21:39
  Rachel: And I rarely.
• 21:40
  Rachel: When I'm in flow state, I, like, rarely.
• 21:41
  Rachel: I don't feel the need to do that.
• 21:43
  Rachel: So then I just start another one.
• 21:45
  Rachel: But that keeps me, like.
• 21:48
  Emily: Keeps you off your phone.
• 21:50
  Rachel: Yeah, because what.
• 21:51
  Rachel: What happens is.
• 21:52
  Rachel: So I have another one where I grow a plant, and then if I use my phone, it kills the plant.
• 21:58
  Rachel: So there's, like, a motivator there of, like, I don't want to kill a plant or my tree.
• 22:02
  Emily: My brain would be like, ugh, whatever.
• 22:04
  Emily: Kill the plant.
• 22:05
  Emily: No, my.
• 22:05
  Rachel: Mine has.
• 22:06
  Rachel: I will pair bond with anything.
• 22:09
  Rachel: I will.
• 22:09
  Rachel: I have a deep love and desire for my garden.
• 22:12
  Rachel: Like, I will never tell my.
• 22:14
  Rachel: My bean to stop knitting socks because he would lose all his socks.
• 22:19
  Rachel: So, like, I'm never going to do that.
• 22:21
  Emily: I love that.
• 22:22
  Emily: That's so bad.
• 22:23
  Rachel: When I take the socks away from him.
• 22:25
  Emily: We're coming at blocking from completely different directions.
• 22:30
  Emily: Like, I actually spent, like, a ridiculous amount of time last night setting up a new blocker because I was using the Freedom app, but it was not enough.
• 22:39
  Emily: It doesn't have enough like.
• 22:41
  Emily: Like, it basically just blocks a set of apps, and you can't create different types of blockers.
• 22:46
  Emily: Like, you can't really, like, differentiate between them.
• 22:48
  Emily: So I downloaded Jomo again, which I highly recommend.
• 22:51
  Emily: I really like it.
• 22:52
  Emily: But now my Jomo blocks everything except I get access to, like, certain apps for certain amounts of time per day.
• 22:58
  Emily: So I'm like, okay, you can only go on Instagram for, like, 20 minutes, and then it will.
• 23:04
  Emily: It will block me for the rest of the day, which is the opposite of what you're doing.
• 23:08
  Emily: You're saying, like, you know, for the next 30 minutes, I'm gonna block all the things.
• 23:12
  Emily: Which is fascinating and just goes to show, right.
• 23:14
  Emily: There's no right or wrong way to do all of these things.
• 23:17
  Emily: Um, but I do think it can be helpful to figure out, like, spend some time thinking through.
• 23:22
  Emily: Like, helps you focus.
• 23:24
  Rachel: You've got to experiment for sure.
• 23:26
  Rachel: Because you don't.
• 23:27
  Rachel: Like, just because it works for us doesn't mean it's going to work for you.
• 23:30
  Rachel: And just because it worked for, like, my white male boss in his late 20s, like, doesn't mean that it was going to work for the mom with three kids that, like, sat next to me and worked, like, the.
• 23:43
  Rachel: It's gonna be different for everyone.
• 23:45
  Rachel: Everyone's brain is different.
• 23:46
  Rachel: But on top of that.
• 23:47
  Rachel: Like, what.
• 23:48
  Rachel: What motivates you is gonna be different.
• 23:51
  Rachel: Like, me not killing that tree matters to me, but, like, to someone else, they'd be like, it's a pixel.
• 23:59
  Rachel: Kill it.
• 23:59
  Emily: Yeah.
• 24:00
  Rachel: And at that same time, like, I have a timer on my Instagram app where I can only use it for an hour, and then it blocks it for me.
• 24:06
  Rachel: But I can.
• 24:07
  Rachel: I can manually.
• 24:09
  Rachel: Like, it can say one more minute, and I can tip.
• 24:12
  Rachel: Click that.
• 24:13
  Rachel: Or it can say 15 more minutes and I can click that.
• 24:16
  Rachel: I have no problem clicking 15 more minutes five times in a row.
• 24:20
  Rachel: Right.
• 24:20
  Rachel: Like, that's really easy for me to do.
• 24:24
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 24:25
  Rachel: Those blocking apps don't do much for me because I know very well how to turn them off.
• 24:30
  Emily: Yeah, these ones have.
• 24:33
  Emily: Jomo has a pretty strict.
• 24:34
  Emily: I haven't enabled it yet because I wanted to make sure I set it all up right before I.
• 24:37
  Emily: Yeah, like, permanently blocked everything from my computer.
• 24:40
  Emily: But I agree.
• 24:41
  Emily: Those 15 minute, like, the.
• 24:43
  Emily: The ones on your phone, those don't motivate me either.
• 24:45
  Emily: I'm like, yeah, let's go.
• 24:46
  Emily: And even Jomo has like, a type in.
• 24:48
  Emily: A. Like, type in what you want to use the app for.
• 24:51
  Emily: And I used to just be like.
• 24:52
  Emily: Like, just letters to get past it.
• 24:54
  Emily: Yeah, exactly.
• 24:56
  Emily: But they.
• 24:56
  Emily: Jomo also has like a. It makes you take, like, it pauses for two minutes before it will open the app.
• 25:01
  Emily: So, like, that can help.
• 25:03
  Emily: I haven't really used that, but you have to, like, think through, like, do I actually want to use this?
• 25:08
  Emily: Um, but I'm.
• 25:09
  Emily: I am getting more and more into the, like, strict blocking.
• 25:12
  Emily: Um, and I'm sure there's still a way I could get past it, but it would be a pain in the butt.
• 25:15
  Emily: Yeah.
• 25:16
  Rachel: I think, like, another thing that this makes me think of the other day, I.
• 25:24
  Rachel: So I've been writing a lot, like, a lot of high word count days.
• 25:28
  Rachel: And I'm pushing.
• 25:29
  Rachel: I noticed I've been pushing to finish a draft, so it's fine.
• 25:32
  Rachel: And I have, like, some good ideas playing, so it's been working well.
• 25:35
  Rachel: But for the record, whenever I am writing, the TV is on because I'm watching guys grocery games or I'm watching Be Bobby Flay.
• 25:46
  Rachel: Like, I need to have a cooking competition on the tv or it's Chernobyl or, like, some other TV show.
• 25:55
  Emily: Or Twilight.
• 25:55
  Rachel: Regardless. Twilight, Chernobyl, the Hunger Games, the Crown.
• 25:59
  Rachel: Like, when I'm with Amelia, those are the shows that we watch.
• 26:02
  Rachel: But if I'm at home on the tv, it's a cooking show.
• 26:06
  Rachel: Um, but someone had caught.
• 26:09
  Rachel: I posted in TW and someone had commented back, wow, you are so focused and disciplined.
• 26:14
  Rachel: And I was like, that is not at all what I am.
• 26:17
  Rachel: I don't feel that I'm focused and disciplined at all.
• 26:19
  Rachel: And it actually made me start to think of the word discipline, which I hate.
• 26:22
  Rachel: I hate the word discipline.
• 26:24
  Rachel: And again, it's, it's not that there's anything inherently wrong with the word.
• 26:28
  Rachel: It's that everyone puts all this weight on the idea that, that you need discipline in order to find flow state or to get anything accomplished or to do good work or et cetera, et cetera.
• 26:40
  Rachel: And I'm like, what the hell does discipline mean?
• 26:42
  Rachel: Because I feel like whenever someone talks to me about discipline, it's a shame conversation.
• 26:47
  Rachel: You're not disciplined enough, you're not working hard enough, you're not trying hard enough.
• 26:51
  Rachel: If only you were more disciplined, if only you had more willpower.
• 26:54
  Rachel: And for me, it's like willpower is not even part of this conversation.
• 26:58
  Rachel: My brain literally doesn't produce enough serotonin.
• 27:01
  Rachel: Like, it's not a willpower thing.
• 27:02
  Rachel: It's that I am understood, stimulated, always.
• 27:06
  Rachel: Like, I can't control that without medicine, which I, I don't currently take.
• 27:11
  Rachel: I, I don't have medicine for my ADHD and I don't feel the need for it.
• 27:16
  Rachel: Like, I operate fine knowing the tools that I have at my disposal.
• 27:20
  Rachel: But like that idea of discipline and willpower and I feel come from a very shame based approach of how to approach your life and like how to work.
• 27:32
  Rachel: And I hate it.
• 27:33
  Rachel: So if people are like, I need to be more disciplined and I could get into flow state, I'm like, I personally disagree.
• 27:40
  Rachel: I feel like.
• 27:41
  Rachel: And, and that's my question to you is I, I feel like you have been very, for lack of a better word, disciplined about your.
• 27:49
  Emily: See, that's not how I see it.
• 27:51
  Emily: Yeah, so, so that's fascinating because one of the biggest things that a lot of these resources talk about is how discipline doesn't mean anything.
• 27:59
  Emily: It doesn't mean shit.
• 28:00
  Emily: I'm on board because we're being manipulated.
• 28:03
  Emily: I mean, like brain, whether you have an neurotypical or atypical brain, right?
• 28:08
  Emily: Like, all that aside, your brain is being manipulated all of the time by the tech that's in front of you.
• 28:14
  Emily: Like, they make money off of the amount of time you spend on their, on their apps.
• 28:17
  Emily: And so phones and apps are designed to keep you looking at their screens.
• 28:22
  Emily: And so it has nothing like a lot of them.
• 28:24
  Emily: Like the first thing they'll do is break down why that is.
• 28:26
  Emily: And I find that extremely helpful and empowering because it helps me understand, like, what is going on with my brain and like, why I am instinctively reaching for my phone.
• 28:37
  Emily: And so what they, what they say is to set boundaries, right?
• 28:42
  Emily: And to, to remove the ubiquity of those things from your life.
• 28:49
  Emily: And so they talk about, like, pre planning.
• 28:52
  Emily: So if, you know you want to find, find flow this afternoon, if you're me, right, Because I can only speak for myself and I know I want to find flow.
• 28:58
  Emily: I've got like three hours to write this afternoon.
• 29:00
  Emily: I'm going to put my phone in another room and I'm going to turn on a blocker that I can't turn off because that removes like, I guess that you could say that those actions are discipline.
• 29:13
  Emily: But, like, in my brain, that's just me pre planning for when I'm weak later.
• 29:18
  Emily: And like, I can't tell you the number of times I'm sitting in my bed writing and I reach for my phone, right?
• 29:21
  Emily: Like, if my phone was there, willpower wouldn't mean bullshit, like, anything in that moment because I'm reaching for it.
• 29:28
  Emily: Like, the only reason I'm not looking at my phone while I'm writing is because it's literally not there.
• 29:31
  Emily: And like, I literally can't open the stuff.
• 29:33
  Emily: And I've always been afraid of those strict blocking rules because I'm like, what if I need it?
• 29:39
  Emily: And like, the reality is, like, there's no emergencies in anything that I do except when it comes to my child.
• 29:45
  Emily: And like, I still have access to whatever's going on with her in that moment.
• 29:49
  Emily: And so like, have coming to terms with that and then allowing like these apps to like, fully block the distracting things.
• 29:55
  Emily: And my computer has really helped me just remove all that stuff so I don't have to lean on discipline.
• 30:02
  Emily: And then also they talk about value.
• 30:04
  Emily: So, like, if you sit with like, what you really value and why you don't want to use those things and like, understand why I don't want to reach for my phone, right?
• 30:12
  Emily: And understand why, like, the impact that's going to have, that makes it a little bit easier to do that pre planning because I'm like, I'm doing it from a place of like, not shame, but like, yeah, self love, right?
• 30:24
  Emily: I'm like, I want to have a good time writing this afternoon.
• 30:26
  Emily: And I know, because I know myself that if I have access to these things, I won't.
• 30:30
  Emily: And so it's coming From a place of self, love versus like, oh, I must write X number of words this afternoon.
• 30:35
  Emily: And if I have my phone, I won't and I'm weak.
• 30:38
  Emily: And, you know, like, if it's coming from that place, like, yes.
• 30:41
  Emily: Yeah.
• 30:41
  Emily: Willpower doesn't mean anything.
• 30:43
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 30:44
  Rachel: Well, I'm glad we're on the same page about that.
• 30:47
  Rachel: And like, it sounds like most of these things are, because I think the conversation 10 years ago was, you're not trying hard enough.
• 30:56
  Emily: Yeah.
• 30:56
  Rachel: And like, I have never found that to be the case in my life.
• 31:01
  Emily: Yeah. I am a try hard.
• 31:03
  Rachel: I try all the time.
• 31:04
  Emily: Like, yeah, if anyone feels that way, like, you just feel like you need to be more disciplined or you feel like, like you're not trying hard enough.
• 31:14
  Emily: Go read Stolen Focus.
• 31:16
  Emily: Because he talks.
• 31:17
  Emily: It's not just about tech.
• 31:18
  Emily: It's about, like, all of the things in life that are keeping us from being able to focus and being able to, like.
• 31:26
  Emily: And it's, it's not just about focus.
• 31:28
  Emily: Like, it's about living well.
• 31:30
  Emily: Um, so I would highly recommend reading that because it takes that shame away.
• 31:33
  Emily: In my, like, in my experience, it was very much like, oh, okay, these are the things that are happening to me.
• 31:37
  Emily: This is why my discipline and willpower aren't.
• 31:40
  Emily: And it has nothing to do with me and everything to do with, like, all these other capitalistic things.
• 31:47
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 31:48
  Emily: Boo capitalism.
• 31:50
  Emily: Boo. It's not you.
• 31:52
  Emily: It's not your fault.
• 31:55
  Rachel: It's not your fault that we're in late stage capitalism.
• 31:59
  Rachel: You can't do anything about it.
• 32:01
  Rachel: The system is broken.
• 32:03
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 32:04
  Rachel: Okay, so I think a big takeaway is just to accept experiment.
• 32:08
  Rachel: And then if you find something that works, like, lean into it and try to refine it and, like, figure out how to make that work the best way that it can for you.
• 32:19
  Emily: Yeah. And try to understand why it works.
• 32:21
  Emily: Right.
• 32:21
  Emily: I do think that, like, learning about, like, reading all these books has reminded me that understanding why my brain works the way that it works and understanding why, you know, like, just understanding your brain is very, very helpful because it takes that shame away and it can help you understand.
• 32:38
  Emily: Like, yes, I did this action today.
• 32:40
  Emily: Why did it work?
• 32:41
  Emily: Right.
• 32:41
  Emily: Because just because you do that action tomorrow doesn't mean it's necessarily going to work again.
• 32:45
  Emily: So you have to have a deeper understanding of the why.
• 32:49
  Emily: And that just takes some, like, exploration and learning.
• 32:53
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 32:55
  Rachel: My. I have one last little story.
• 32:58
  Rachel: And I said serotonin earlier, I meant dopamine.
• 33:01
  Rachel: But when I was in college, I would often play league of Legends on my laptop during class, and the people behind me would always watch and comment and.
• 33:11
  Rachel: And I truly would be like, I'm not.
• 33:13
  Rachel: I need this.
• 33:15
  Rachel: I need this to focus, guys.
• 33:17
  Rachel: Like, and now looking back, I mean, looking back, I'd be like, why did some of, like, the best classes that I have, I was doing something completely different.
• 33:26
  Rachel: And now it makes sense where I'm like, oh, well, perhaps that wasn't the best way to go about it.
• 33:31
  Rachel: I'm not saying that we should be playing League of Legends in classes, but I am saying that.
• 33:36
  Emily: Like, you're saying that classes are structured in a stupid way.
• 33:40
  Rachel: I'm saying I was bored.
• 33:42
  Rachel: I certainly was bored.
• 33:43
  Rachel: And for me to pay attention to that lecture, I needed to have another kind of.
• 33:47
  Rachel: That's why fidget toys work.
• 33:49
  Rachel: You know, that's why, like, fidget toys exist, is because we need.
• 33:53
  Rachel: Sometimes we need to be stimulated more in order to lock into something.
• 33:59
  Rachel: I feel.
• 33:59
  Emily: Yeah, yeah, you do.
• 34:02
  Emily: I don't.
• 34:03
  Emily: I need to be stimulated as little as possible.
• 34:06
  Rachel: I. And you know what?
• 34:06
  Rachel: I think some of.
• 34:08
  Rachel: I. I think there's a huge genetic component to neurodivergence.
• 34:15
  Rachel: I think it runs in the family a lot of ways.
• 34:18
  Rachel: And I also think the way that technology is set up in our world breeds it, builds it, fuels, fuels this lack of.
• 34:27
  Rachel: Or this constant need for stimulation.
• 34:29
  Rachel: So that's something that I struggle with a lot of, like, am I a product of the technological world that I live in, or am I a product of the genetics that have been passed down to me?
• 34:40
  Rachel: And I think it's a little bit.
• 34:41
  Rachel: Or a lot of both.
• 34:42
  Rachel: I think it's a lot of both.
• 34:44
  Emily: The last chapter of Stolen Focus talks about that and sort of the.
• 34:50
  Emily: The studies, the conflicting studies and conflicting opinions around that because it's.
• 34:54
  Emily: I mean, that's a difficult thing to measure and study, but.
• 35:00
  Emily: Yeah, that's fascinating.
• 35:02
  Emily: Okay, well, that's enough about that.
• 35:04
  Emily: But that was.
• 35:04
  Emily: That was fascinating.
• 35:05
  Rachel: Thank you for engaging with great, great comments.
• 35:10
  Emily: Oh, everybody go find it.
• 35:11
  Emily: No, I'm just kidding.
• 35:13
  Emily: And.
• 35:14
  Emily: And sometimes we have to write when we're not in flow state, and that's okay, too.
• 35:17
  Rachel: Oh, actually, that's a great point.
• 35:18
  Rachel: Is that when I write dialogue, it's easier for me to get into flow state when I'm not writing dialogue.
• 35:25
  Rachel: When I'm doing more challenging parts of the writing process, it's.
• 35:28
  Rachel: It's harder for me to get there.
• 35:30
  Emily: So that's.
• 35:31
  Emily: Different parts of the writing process will be different for different people, probably depending on what motivates you?
• 35:38
  Emily: Yeah. For me I'm like extremely motivated by competence.
• 35:42
  Emily: So like if it doesn't feel right that you like, then I struggle.
• 35:47
  Emily: But that's why I love revisions is cause they make me like I'm coming at it with an answer versus like just moving forward.
• 35:54
  Emily: And so it's far more rewarding.
• 35:56
  Emily: It's easier.
• 35:56
  Emily: I find flow state in revision so much easier than drafting.
• 36:00
  Emily: But it is fun to discover that I can find it in drafting because I didn't think that was possible.
• 36:05
  Rachel: Now you know.
• 36:07
  Emily: Now I know.
• 36:08
  Emily: All right.
• 36:09
  Rachel: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 36:16
  Emily: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
• 36:19
  Emily: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 36:24
  Rachel: Link in the show notes.
• 36:25
  Rachel: We'll see you there.
• 36:26
  Emily: Bye.