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When Church Hurts: Mental Health Misconceptions with Jesse Evans · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_05: Would y'all say, if you're a pastor, talk to a dagum therapist once a month at the very least?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_05: Like how how would y'all feel about me being snarky about that?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_05: Look at the job that you're doing.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_05: You need to talk to somebody too.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_05: Would y'all be comfortable with making that a general rule of thumb?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_06: Of course I would.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I'm in front of 10, 20 pastors and there's nobody else in the room, you probably would not believe what I get away with saying to them.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how dare you stand in that pulpit knowing that you teach what you know and you reproduce what you are?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: How dare you not be the healthiest specimen you could possibly be?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: They love it.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: They love it because they know I care.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they love it because deep down they know they're jacked up.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: They know they're jacked up.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: They really do.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_06: And I immediately put myself above them because of my education, or they in turn put themselves above me for their education, or I put myself below them because I'm a woman coming into this space.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_06: All of those moves have immediately taken me out of a place of right relationship or righteousness in that place.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Mental Health and Mission of the Church podcast with Pastor Chip Judd.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is Brittany Gardner, part of Chip's team.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: This episode will also be released on the Steadfast Podcast from Steadfast Christian Counseling.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: The woman in charge of that outfit, Jessie Evans, joins for a talk about some of the challenges in bringing pastors and therapists together and what some good tactics could be in order to increase that synergy and teamwork.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Both Jesse and Chip have the similar goal in mind.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're in the Charleston area, Steadfast Christian Counseling is putting on the Steadfast Summit, a conference motivated by the same sediments.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Link is in the show notes, and thanks for listening, everyone, from both listenerships.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I'm gonna just dive right in.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to both podcasts, listenership.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_05: I tell you what, Chip, why don't you welcome your listeners and then I'll let Jesse welcome hers.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Hey man, all you guys that are interested in the interplay and interaction uh between mental health, both as a profession and as a condition of life, and our job, our calling, our delightful invitation in the mission of the church.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we just want to talk about stuff that that impacts that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: We want to talk to pastors and leaders in the church, we want to talk to counselors and people in the mental health professional, and we want to talk to everybody about how important it is.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can't you can't have a good walk with God if you don't uh are not mindful and taking time and energy to invest in your mental health.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we just want to help you along the way.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, we want this conversation to grow.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: We really want to get those two groups of people, church community and the mental health community.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: We want to get them talking, and God help us, we'd love to get them partnering, and uh that's kind of what we're all about.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_05: So let me back up a little bit.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_05: Did you just say you can't have I wish I would have remembered your exact words, you can't have a good relationship with God without good mental health?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can't enjoy you know, we talk about Christianity, it'll set you free, right?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's kind of preached all the time.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: We have songs all about it, and the truth of the matter is most people aren't free.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe it's because we've given token, and it's probably being a little bit unkind, but we haven't delved into uh the mental health side.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there's people like myself and like Jesse that have kind of felt called and given our life to studying the soul.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Psychology is based on the word soul, the study of the soul.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um once you're saved, once you're a Christian, the soul's the juicy, that's where all the good stuff happens.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I'll be so uh arrogant to say that I believe personally, we in other words, people that are called into the mental health side of things, I believe we're the most important thing happening in the church right now.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because if if if you're not mentally, emotionally, relationally healthy, you can't represent Jesus properly.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: You just can't.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think the best witness for the Lord is a changed life.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I I don't think we're using all the tools that are available to us.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: And mental health has excavated tools that are wow, they're extraordinarily effective.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Extraordinarily effective.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we might need to reword them a little bit, we might need to change, you know, bring the bring the words down from five syllables to two or three to to talk about them.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: But once you do that, people get it, and lives start to change, and we just do a better job of representing Jesus in the earth.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_05: I know this doesn't this doesn't resonate with you at all, does it, Jesse?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, I'm jumping at the bit.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_05: So, Chip, Chip, tell tell Jesse's listenership the name of your podcast.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: My podcast, I think, Joey, you tell me if I'm wrong.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's mental health and the mission of the church.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or you can just search my name, I think.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Chip Judd, I think.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that is the name of your podcast.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_05: Good job.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_05: Good job.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_05: Well, Jesse, talk talk to listeners of mental health, the mission of the church.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_05: Let them know what you're up to.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there's a conference coming up, and obviously I was making a joke that this isn't resonating with you.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_05: It really is crazy.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_05: You guys are after both the exact same things, it seems like, from my perspective.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_06: I one thing I'll say before I forget to say it is I feel like we can't even know Jesus fully.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_06: We can't know God fully unless we are trying to unravel our own stuff.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_06: You know, there are so many blocks.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_06: I feel like just walking with people, especially in the therapy space when people want that faith integration, so much of what we're doing is helping them kind of untangle their own defenses, their own reactions, their own trauma, their own interpretations of their earthly relationships that are blocking them from really experiencing like the love of God in a way I think we were meant to.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_06: It's not only just representing Him, but it's just like experiencing what it's like to actually walk in relationship with the Lord.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_06: I think if we are doing that inner work through therapy, it just unlocks so many things um to help us really live more freely as followers of Christ.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm Jesse Evans and I own uh Steadfast Christian Counseling, and an offshoot of Steadfast Christian Counseling is the Steadfast podcast, which is what you guys are listening to now as well.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_06: I guess we're we're doing a dual drop with this episode, so that's great.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_06: So our mission at Steadfast is really twofold.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_06: Chip, you and I line up beautifully.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_06: I'm the daughter of I'm gonna say pastors because my I think my parents pastored that little church together in West Virginia.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and so I'm a PK.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_06: I watched my parents serve with no resources.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_06: And so one of the big missions of Steadfast Christian Counseling is that we would just do what we can do to flood our local church in Charleston with as many resources as we can, not only for the leaders, but for everyone, just to be more emotionally resilient, emotionally strong.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_06: And as we serve as leaders in the church to really know how to do that well, trauma-informed, full of care.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_06: We're all about that.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_06: And so the Steadfast Podcast is part of that mission.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_06: It's part of the resources that we try to put out in the community.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_06: But we are, I feel like, and I told Joey this last week, but I think part of my adult work that the Lord's called me to is just to do what I can do to build this bridge between mental health and the church.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and so whatever we can do, um I I'm a small town girl, I'm a local girl, like I told Joey last week, and I feel like it's it's Charleston is the focus.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_06: Um, so yeah, I love getting to meet new people, and um I'm I'm definitely happy to sit with you guys and talk through this because I think our hearts are the same on this issue.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, Jesse and I talked last week and it's airing on my podcast, and it felt like we could have talked for more hours easily, which I'm sure that that'll be the feelings with this one.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_05: I thought what would be some good territory to initially look into a little bit, Jesse is a little part of my story because Chip was such an integral uh part of being there for me.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_05: And, you know, I purposely avoided the words like helped me because at my at my absolute lowest part of my mental health crisis, Chip was one of three people that realized there wasn't a whole lot of helping that could be done for me at at my state.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_05: Like I was far, far gone.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_05: And what I what I want to explore a little bit is so it it was Chip and my parents.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_05: They were probably, you know, because it it was uh it was a scary situation for people that knew me.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_05: It was a lot of question marks as to how it would all end up and whether I would be okay.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_05: It was it was that bad.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_05: And Chip understood that therapy wasn't gonna work.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_05: You could put a bunch of people in the room with me and pray over me, and you know, maybe maybe that would work supernaturally.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_05: But bottom line is Chip had a pretty thorough understanding that the chemicals needed to be realigned, balanced, whatever you professionals would would call it.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_05: Chip, I I just I'm curious because I reflecting a lot on my that time, I I recognize that had CCOS not had this mental health thing in somewhat of a proper placement and really recognizing and valuing the importance of it, I may not be here uh talking with you guys.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_05: This may be somewhat of an uncomfortable question to ask you with as far as you not wanting to brag on yourself, but how much can we attribute where CCOS was at at the time to you?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_05: Because you were hired on kind of specifically, I mean, I'll say that was one of your purposes was to bring mental health awareness.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_05: It may not have been articulated that way, but that was partly what we brought you on staff for was to see the staff at CCOS flourish mentally.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so I'm curious how much did you bring that to the table at that point in 2019?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, it's an awkward question to answer, but um I mean I would say a lot of it, Joey.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I can remember the first time that uh I met with the team, you know, the care team, and uh I had to hide it, but I was just angry.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was angry at their their their terminology, I was angry at the old school phrasing of things.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was and they know all this because you know me, Joey.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: I can't hide that for long.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we and we had several meetings where I just threw down and I just said, Okay, uh these phrases I don't want to ever hear again.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I pulled up one of the pamphlets and I said, Look at this thing, man.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Are you freaking kidding me?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_05: I wish I could have seen this.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, they were all stunned.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Michael Morris was in the room and uh Julie and uh I can't remember who else.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I just told them, I said, Listen, guys, we're here to to reach the community as well as our congregation.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we got to use concepts and and language that they can relate to, not this crazy Christianese and whatever.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, slowly but surely, that's what I was referring to earlier, Jesse, that you know, Michael went back to school, Adam went back to school.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: We've got what, Joey, probably three to five other staff members that have gone back to school.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And again, forgive me, but I would say in directly or indirectly, it's somewhat based on I I think people resonate with what Jesse and I do if we're careful on how we package it and present it.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now, occasionally I'm inclined to call people stupid.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't say that, but I can imply that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but as long as we're careful to make it inviting, um, and I think what happened in our staff is they saw people getting helped, they they heard language that they could resonate with and reproduce.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, I could I could say that, you know, I get that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: It explained dilemmas that they've never heard explained before.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think slowly but surely, it's like now you just hear it from the pulpit all the time.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like we take for granted that, like I tell people uh every once in a while, I'll remind them.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I said, You realize like I'm not traveling as much now, obviously, but over the last 10 years I have been.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I couldn't name five other churches that are as attuned and use the right language and perspective.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking this, Joey, when you were saying you were saying that a little bit about uh that you couldn't say I helped you.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know the weird thing is I think one of the main ways I helped you at that worst spot was protecting you from the church.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_05: Stuff that I couldn't see or know about.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I just the default is well, we need to we need to get him in therapy.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: We need to cast the devil out of him.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: We need to and I would say uh even to your wife, I'd say, Priscilla, none of that's gonna help right now.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Joey's not broken.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Joey's brain is broken.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And until we can address his brain, nothing else is gonna help.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to repeat that several like I had pretty, you know what I mean, pretty high-placed staff members come to me and say, dude, in a sense, they didn't use these words, but in a sense what they were saying is, are you sure you know what you're doing?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like Joey's bad.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are you sure you're doing this right?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, occasionally I had somebody come and say, Well, you need to get him out of there, and blah, blah, blah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I said, There's no place on earth better than where he's at right now.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_05: And now, are you talking about the hospital?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And my hope was that they were gonna get your medications right for the first time in your life, which they did.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's no two ways about it, Joey.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Your journey and my involvement with you in it accelerated C COS embracing of the mental health emission of the church partnership.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_05: You're welcome from a mental health crisis.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because here's the deal, that's right.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because here's the deal, dude.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: It it had a good ending, and everybody's watched you do better than you've ever done for longer than you ever have.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um, don't think they don't notice that, man.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a major victory in lots of ways.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, what did you mean by the whole uh that were there people that thought that the hospital was just, man, that place is just rough.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_05: We gotta get Joey out of here.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_05: He doesn't need to be in there.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_05: Like what what what was what's the rationale there?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, I think I think I'll just speak for Christians, but in my opinion, most, meaning 51% or more, most Christians have just kind of a stereotypical view of mental health facilities, psych wards.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they think you go in there and walk around drooling and whatever.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think they have a misperception about what they are, what they're like.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a misperception about psychiatrists.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now, occasionally, unfortunately, it's true, but most Christians, again, 51% or more, they they think psychiatrists just talk to you for 10 minutes and throw a pill at you.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm not saying that isn't occasionally the case, but it isn't always.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And quite honestly, sometimes the pill is what you need, and then people like Jesse and I can do the the therapy side and the life management side and that kind of thing.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and honestly, Joey, there's some pretty ineffective psychiatry facilities that are overwhelmed and um don't really do a great job.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, I t I get there.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, d I mean, dude, I came to visit you.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: It ain't a cheery place.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's not somewhere you want someone you love to be.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I hated coming and I hated leaving you there, but I knew we had to.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_05: Jesse, you get a little comic relief here.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_05: You get a kick out of this.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_05: So our founding pastor, who is, you know, Chip and him are like best buds when they didn't know each other and Chip was coming on staff, or maybe this was before you were coming on staff, but bottom line is Chip was scheduling some one-on-ones with some of our executive team, and you know, kind of check, you know, kind of like an initial, I want to see how this staff is functioning, how mentally healthy people are, how healthy the culture is, and all of that.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_05: And Pastor Greg literally told his wife, I gotta meet with this chip guy.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_05: There's nothing wrong with me, so I might as well just make some stuff up.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_05: Which he would laugh at himself now, being like, Oh my gosh, I didn't think there was anything wrong with me.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, Chip, what I do want to get into some of this with with both of you.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_05: Jesse actually wrote a very nice uh, I don't know if you would you call it a blog post.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_05: Is that yeah, after our conversation last week, because I was telling her that I've heard some rumblings just in general now that a lot of, or I don't know if it's a lot, I want to ask y'all, you know, how how churches are doing, but there has even been, I think, some conversations at Seacoast with how invested we are in mental health.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_05: It's almost like, well, pastoral counseling also, you know, like are we swinging swinging the pendulum so far to where someone would not value time with their pastor and asking them some questions?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_05: Because hey, you need to go to a professional mental health therapist.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_05: What would be y'all's thoughts on the usefulness of pastoral counseling and that's proper place?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_05: Because I think I think we would all say that there are situations in which talking to your pastor could be very healthy.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_05: And I was saying with Jesse on my podcast, where you know, and a lot of this comes with age and experience, I I know when I cannot offer any further help as a as a pastor.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_05: Like I I I can kind of pick on it, pick up on it pretty quickly.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_05: And I pastor them by saying, I really think you should talk to a mental health uh therapist.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_05: But what what how do y'all feel about any sort of sentiments of what if the church goes too far with this and we start to devalue what a pastor can do?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I think it's an interesting thing to discuss.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_06: And I think for me, I don't know if you feel this chip, but I always feel like there's so much education.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_06: Like I just feel like there's a mountain in front of me all the time to educate about what we actually do in the therapy space.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_06: Because I think there is this misconception that if we like we will go to churches and talk about like, hey, we can train your staff on being more trauma informed.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_06: Um, we can kind of go through this.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_06: And I think there's this misconception that we're trying to turn everyone into a therapist, kind of, um, which is completely not the case.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_06: Um, I think there is certainly and there will always be a place for pastoral counseling.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_06: Um, but it's completely different.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_06: I think there is like this idea that because we call pastoral counseling pastoral counseling, which I would vote that we just like take that word, maybe we think of a different word.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_06: But it it becomes really confusing.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_06: And I think what came out in the blog too, why we even have this overlap, you know, and we think about like the relational element, which we do a lot of a lot of what we do at Steadfast is really rooted in attachment theory.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_06: And so there can be a lot of growth, even freedom that comes from someone being in a very healthy relationship, whether that be with someone in their home group or with a pastor or with, you know, just to kind of have a human experience where you realize, like, oh my goodness, like I'm safe and accepted in this relationship.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_06: Like there's a lot of like unraveling that can happen for that person in a positive way that can bring freedom.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_06: And so there is kind of this overlap of good in all of these things.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_06: But I think being trauma-informed is kind of what you're talking about, Joey, is understanding kind of how to know when we need another professional in the space.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_06: Like when where is the line of like, okay, this person, what they're bringing to the table is outside of my scope.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_06: And sometimes that's hard to hear because what's outside of the scope of scripture, right?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_06: Like I feel like we get that pushback a lot.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_06: Well, I think scripture can handle every problem that someone faces.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_06: So, you know, there are a lot of these types of conversations that I think we have to have and that we have to kind of go through.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_06: But I think what something that you said, Joey, last week that um is really important for people to understand is the brain is an organ as well in the body.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_06: And we don't have these conversations like around if someone is talking about any other issue in the body, um, we don't have to have this kind of confusion.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_06: But for some reason, and I think it is be maybe because of the attachment piece, because of the relationship piece.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_06: But for some reason, when it comes to mental and emotional health, it's always a discussion that we have to have.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_06: Why can't everything thing be taken care of in the pastoral space.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_06: And so that's part of what we try to do with being trauma-informed and full of care.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_06: You know, I mean we talked a little bit about OCD last week and specifically scrupulosity.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_06: But when I went on staff at the church where I was, like that was kind of the first thing that we wanted to tackle because I was like, okay, what are we going to do, Elder, when um Miss Susie calls you and says, hey, I'm having intrusive thoughts about like hurting one of my children, you know?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_06: If you don't have any understanding and training of different types of things that people might say, and I know I said scrupulosity and then I talked about another OCD theme, but I always thought because that was my OCD theme was like harm to self, harm to children when I was pregnant in that perinatal phase.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_06: And I know as a clinician that, oh my gosh, that's an OCD or an anxiety symptom, an intrusive thought, right?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_06: And so to educate our team, hey, just because somebody says this does not mean that they're gonna, that that's what they want.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_06: This is an anxiety symptom, this is this, and this is a referral.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_06: This person needs counseling.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_06: And with the scrupulosity piece like we talked about last week, do you have someone, are we educating our prayer teams for when Jim comes forward every week and wants to just rededicate his life to the Lord every week just to be sure.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_06: You know, like there are just some things that I feel like in the education realm that can help our ministry leaders know like, okay, we've done what we need to refer this person out.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_06: The line that here's the line here's the piece and this person needs to now get this type of care.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_06: You know, same with addictions, same with other things.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_06: But I think education is the key, but I do think we need both.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_06: I think we need both.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah I'll give y'all kind of a real-time example of something I've realized.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_05: So Priscilla, my wife and I, we've been in marriage counseling with a professional gosh for maybe a couple of years.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_05: It's interesting now being so fully involved on that side of things like receiving the counseling, I'm way more equipped to help couples in my pastoral profession just by seeing a professional carry the sort of things that she's carrying out.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_05: And and you know Chip has done a lot of counseling for Priscilla and I too I've I'm way more equipped to help couples now that I've been the recipient of some professional care.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_05: Thinking about this whole you know are we going too far with mental health uh counseling and mental health therapy as opposed to pastoral and I I Jesse I'd love to circle back around and talk about what you said as far as maybe we need to change the terminology.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_05: But as as I'm thinking about this, it you know I think about Jesus who I I would imagine would be the perfect therapist because he knows the brain like no others but when it comes to reading through the gospels most of what he's teaching is spiritual concepts most now I think there's a lot of stuff in the Bible throughout the New Testament uh for me that just screams mental health and it's like oh wow you know making your thoughts obedient to Christ that's like a management and awareness of your thoughts and your anxiety and you know giving those thoughts to the Lord.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_05: So it does seem like there is uh somewhat of a there could be a clear distinction in what someone like me has to offer as a pastor it's it's spiritual truths.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_05: And of course there are some mental health stuff that I can offer but when I do that I make sure they know hey this is this is from someone who's experienced you know mental illness and these anxiety challenges and here's some things that I've learned from a therapist.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_05: But Chip what are your thoughts on any sort of uneasiness as far as like people gravitating more towards mental health therapy and I would imagine this probably isn't even an issue at at most churches.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_05: That's why you guys are working so diligently to you know try to bridge this gap but most churches probably aren't focusing as much on mental health therapy.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_05: But what's going too far chip?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I would say that it is in danger of going too far.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: What both I guess we'll call them sides of this dialogue the two islands that we want to build a bridge between both of them could use a healthy dose of humility.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean let's face it when you spend the time energy and money to acquire an education you like throwing big words around one of the biggest things that happens is when you like this I've this has literally happened.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've set up a meeting between counselors and pastors and the counselors use these big words and I I I talked to them afterwards and I'm like dude you realize you lost them three sentences in and honestly Jesse you would have lost pastors with your with the word that you're scrupulosity.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: They would check out they'd be done because what happens is they feel like you're talking down to them.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh like when you go to another culture you learn their language and you speak their language not yours.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I found is that works both directions.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've noticed it in in in our situation like I'm really thrilled that we've got you know half a dozen staff guys and ladies that have gone back to school.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: But what bothers me is they now they talk that language and I'm like no guys no that's not the point of you going to school the point of you going to school is to learn the underlying concepts principles methods practices etc but bring them back to us in a form people can understand and that's when that's when you have a win when you can help somebody understand why I react to this situation this way attachment most people once you really explain attachment they get it they're like wow I never saw myself from that filter but I think that the danger is you know just just a good dose of humility I don't I don't need to be seen as the smartest person in the room I don't I don't need to impress with what I know or don't know this the church side I think the pastors just it's just fear.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Pastors are concerned about losing their their place in people's lives.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's part of why it's worked here at Seacoast because I found it a lot of churches when when you when you when when you kind of cross a line where they're more comfortable with it most pastors are are thrilled and relieved because they don't like counseling.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to counsel they hate it but they feel like they have to do it.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And when you could relieve them of that which requires humility on the counselor side like the counselor's got to come in there and and be sensitive to the culture he or she's dealing with and I don't think we always are and so we create we create a dichotomy that doesn't need to exist.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we can you know we can kind of like oh pastoral counsel we don't say it but pastoral counseling like yeah that's a good holding pattern until I get an opening in my schedule to where I could really help you.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we just got to be careful about all this stuff.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's on all of us to figure out what am I doing that's making it hard for the person I'm talking to to hear what I'm trying to say.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And all of us are doing things that are making it hard for others to hear what we're trying to say.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And my deal is dumb it down to the lowest possible level.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're never going to lose doing that.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Dumb it down to the lowest possible level.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: My goal when I when I preach or whatever, I'm always going to have a a psychological lean to what I'm doing.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I disguise it.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I I hide it and I think there's plenty of ways to scripturally explain I've not found a single thing I learned getting my masters that I can't find scripture to explain.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now you got to be careful but I'm willing to do that.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it is an issue and I think I think it's part of why we're doing this.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of why we're passionate about this because the the the two communities don't trust each other.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: They really don't and I think some for good reason and some not we need each other.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_05: When you when you say both sides don't trust each other right when we're thinking and I'll just I'll say science community are we thinking science community that that don't hold to a spiritual faith or would you say even Christian people in the science community don't trust?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I would say it's definitely worse if they're not Christians.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah but it's still there even if they are because I mean just think about it like this you're you're you're trying to invite them into a realm where you're gonna have to submit to my learning.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: In other words you're asking them to go into an arena that they're not in charge and they're not used to that.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: They they're not comfortable with that.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And the church correctly or incorrectly and I have my opinions on all this we've held pastors to a pretty high place and it's just human nature you're not gonna give that up easily and some of it's subconscious some of it's not when when you say hey let's get together and talk there's gonna be moments where the pastoral side is in a teaching position.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be times when the mental health community is going to be in a teaching position.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to do a heart check a humility check to put yourself in the right posture of heart to receive and walk out of that room thinking you know I learned something from you today.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Until leaders can yearn for that until they can come to a meeting what can I learn today?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because let's face it a lot of times we're not doing that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_05: We're coming well I'm gonna I'm gonna help them see this and I'm gonna show them that and I'm gonna well great let's just stay where we are yeah sometimes when I have talked about when when I've talked openly and candidly about not only my background and struggles with mental health but also in a way that esteems therapy and the scientific side I've had I've had counselors who share the same faith and and it feel how they're talking to me it feels like they're saying thank you so much.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_05: I care so much and I can help so much.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_05: So what you said I'm appreciative of because all I want to do is help in the body of Christ.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_05: That's not the culture that you and I are in Chip at Seacoast but I could imagine like a licensed therapist who loves his or her church and wants to help and if if they didn't value that side of things that that would have to feel awful because you just you just want to be used in God's kingdom and and you see the need, you know right.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_06: I think that's what's so hard is like you see the need and you know you have the tools that can help.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_06: You know I know that when I came on staff at the church where I worked like that was the the main thing at first was you know my dad was an elder there at the time and I was just like my gosh like you guys are bogged down.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_06: Like you guys need you need help.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_06: And so to just like be able to come in with the tools that we have and just kind of say like you know we're here to help you and sometimes I think chip it is like it's an uphill battle and I feel like I have to convince people sometimes that I can help them.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_06: Not only because I'm a therapist I mean not only because I'm like not a pastor but for me because I'm a woman there's a whole other element that comes into play there.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_06: I mean in our churches it's a lot easier for you chip to come into a space like and be respected by a pastor right away.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_06: I don't have that same um and so there's that element in the room as well.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_06: But I I mean I I definitely feel like there is a place for both.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_06: And I think I love what you're saying about like words it sounds like for me from what we've talked about even in this hour, you know, even what you were saying before when you had that meeting and how you were like we need to rip up this brochure like the words you were using.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_06: Words are important.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_06: The way that we communicate with each other it it's super important.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_06: I'm curious what some of those words were that you saw on the brochure brochure like on the ministry side of things like you know for therapists like not coming in there with our like therapy ease but also like you know you said Christian ease on the other side but even how we name things I mean when we think about like trauma when we think about religious trauma naming things saying things out loud breaking yeah believe it or not one of the things that threw them was I told them I don't want to ever hear the word support group again.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want I don't want to call them growth groups call them whatever you want but do not call them support groups ever and I told them this I said as soon as you say support groups three quarters of the congregation checks out.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not an addict because they think support groups are for addicts.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I said stop calling them support groups call them care groups growth groups call them you know Sunday fun groups I don't care what you call them don't call them support groups so just you know most of it was like freedom and I don't mean the word freedom the word freedom is a good word but just the the sentences and it was just it was creepy Christian and um when I speak from a stage or anywhere my goal is to be to sound as much like the people outside of the church as I possibly can without losing the people in the room.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean Joey you tell me when I speak at Seaco I think people love it because because I'm talking to them where they live and I'm talking about things that really matter and giving them practical solutions.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to say something Jesse about what you said because you're so you're so right.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: I would say this is what it typically goes like.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: A guy will reach out to me like back when I was traveling a lot just last year a guy will reach out to me and say hey you know a friend of mine has had you in his church and says that I really ought to reach out to you.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: I say okay well let's let's see if we can get something scheduled.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well lo and behold what he what what's really going on is his marriage is in trouble.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: He's gonna bring me in to speak at his church to hide that he wants me to come in and counsel him.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I come in and I counsel him the first time and by the grace of God good stuff happens and he gets some relief and help.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well next time I come a whole different experience he's like hey I want you to meet with my staff I want you and and his it's like it's like he's something like tilted just a little bit and every time I come back their language is changing.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'll never forget it's one of one of my proudest ministry moments uh this one church in Atlanta big church now it's probably 2000 or so at the time it was around 10 12 and I come in and just do counseling with the staff three days.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Boom boom boom boom boom and I've been doing that for I don't know a couple years and I was in an appointment with same day two different young guys and they said something and I said what do you what do you mean about me and my influence there and I said what are you talking about I just come in and meet with you guys and he they said you don't get it do you I said no I don't I don't follow they said you've changed the culture of this church I said what are you talking about I've never preached there done a few staff development and they said you've so changed the pastor and the way we talk the words we use that you have literally changed the culture of this church and I I'm like what then from there on I started watching that and it's true they have a staff member that is dealing with something that you and I would recognize immediately as a mental health issue.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well prior to interacting with somebody like us they they don't see it that way they see it as a performance issue or character issue or whatever.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well after they interact with people like us they they look at it a little differently and they say you know now they're in their elders meeting or whatever and they're talking about the staff member and instead of you know we need to get rid of them they're like you know let's let's send them to a concert for six months and we're gonna pay for it and and their culture's changing and part of it is because they're dealing with their own stuff.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_05: Do y'all think given the weight and type of responsibility that pastors carry and we all know that it it's not going to work unless they wanted it but we could say a general rule of thumb would y'all say if you're a pastor talk to a dagum therapist once a month at the very least like how how would y'all feel about me being snarky about that?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_05: Come on man look you look at the job that you're you're doing you need to talk to somebody too and not just a leader in the church but an actual professional counselor.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_05: Would y'all be comfortable with making that a general rule of thumb?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_06: Of course I would and I think like what Chip is just saying there like that statement of working on your own stuff I mean that's where we started this conversation was I mean if we don't know everybody's rolling a suitcase of stuff into every space they're in all the time.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_06: Our experiences our hurts our protector or the ways we protect ourselves like we're rolling it in.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_06: And so to be able to we're not we're never gonna know everything that's in our suitcase, you know, but to just start being curious about looking in our own suitcase now doing that the result of that is we're we're a lot more comfortable with other people having their suitcase.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_06: So with this staff you're talking about like they became comfortable with you know the this phrase like holding space now gets a lot of bad flack but essentially slowing down with the people around you you know just being just realizing yeah man we're all we're rolling suitcases around all of us are that's not to say that we're not like you know trying to work through our things of course we are but like just that what I hear you say chip is like for that staff there's a lot more safety felt as a group you know no it's a it's a process and sometimes it's a really slow one.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it can be really frustrating truthfully.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now you you made reference to some things a few minutes ago Jesse a male I am a pastor and have been for over 40 years.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also 71 years old I'm also best friends with one of the most known liked pastors in America.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the bottom line is I can get away with a lot like when I'm in front of 10 20 pastors and there's nobody else in the room you probably would not believe what I get away with saying to them like I I beat the crap out of them man.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: I say things like how dare you how dare you not get as healthy as you could possibly get how dare you stand in that pulpit knowing that you teach what you know and you reproduce what you are how dare you not be the healthiest specimen you could possibly be.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll say stuff like that.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: You go Mark Driscoll on them man they they love it they love it they love it because they know I care.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: They love it because Greg has set me up and said trust me this guy is he wants to help you and they love it because deep down they know they're jacked up they know they're jacked up they really do.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now occasionally you meet somebody who doesn't I don't typically work for those kind of people they don't invite me back.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_05: Jesse you you have a a a decent amount of experience yourself.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_05: I mean you and I are a good bit younger than Chip have you noticed uh a change there it is Joey you gotta bring up the age issue every time we talk you gotta bring it up whatever Joey ha have you noticed any sort of improvement in the gender discussion as far as the we'll just say it the respect that maybe is in shortage because of your gender like do you notice an improvement over the years in that or definitely not really for sure.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_06: I actually might go as far to say as like we are in a new maybe even what would it be like the second reformation of the church like I just think when you think about you know the first reformation and and the technology around that like we had the printing press everyone then could get like their own uh copy of scripture right and so scripture was in the hands of the people now with I mean just look at us right now we're sitting on a podcast we're talking everyone now all the congregants no matter what they look like coming through the door they can sit in front of a screen with a microphone and they can speak about their experiences and their theology and their thoughts and so because of YouTube because of podcasts because we have now the ability to hear from the church in a way that we have not been able to hear from the church.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_06: And so women like me are able to speak about things.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_06: And so you know it's not just the man at the front of the stage with a mic on Sunday mornings um right like we're out of that phase and so I think for that reason a lot of things are changing.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_06: A lot of people are realizing like my goodness like the women in the church have a lot of spiritual gifting in a lot of these areas areas.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_06: And so I think the church is changing because of that.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_06: And I think that's when we're talking about today, like mental health in the church, I think kind of those same things are happening.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_06: Like we're able to kind of bridge this gap.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_06: And where I landed with that podcast was about the body.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_06: When we think about our giftings, I think what's happening in this kind of I like to think of it as like another reformation of the church is that the church is changing from like kind of a hierarchical is that how you say that word?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_06: I've been thinking about that word for a while, but I always feel like I say it wrong you're asking the wrong person if you're asking me.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Higher She knows that Joey.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_06: Chip, can I say that word?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_06: Is that too big of a word to say?
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_06: Do I need to throw that word okay?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_06: I'm going to start running exactly I'm going to start running on my vocabulary by chip before I like say it.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, so I think we're maybe moving from this type of top down structure to more of maybe how we're designed to be which is like the body.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_06: You know like I I spent a whole year with the Bible project last year going they were going through the Sermon on the Mount for the whole year.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_06: And it was beautiful and they talked about righteousness and they kind of took a deep dive into that word and one of the like things that that word really means is to be in right relationship with each other.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_06: And so if you come into a space so if I come into a a meeting with a pastor or with a leadership team from a church and I immediately put myself above them because of my education or they in turn put themselves above me for their education or whatever or I put myself below them because I'm a woman coming into this space and I feel like nobody's going to listen to me.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_06: All of those moves have immediately taken me taken me out of a place of right relationship or righteousness in that place.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_06: Because we're meant to be this I mean scripture talks about like there's no there's there's there's no more Jew Greek.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_06: There's no more there's no more male female like all this stuff has been like abolished because of the cross.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_06: And so right relationship is is this and so to me that's the bridge like coming in like I have gifts and talents the Lord's given me things that he hasn't given either one of you.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_06: He's given you guys things that he hasn't given me and so when we work together that's when the beauty happens and so I feel really great as a woman in the church right now.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_06: Like I feel that's encouraging to hear.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_06: I mean listen it's still you know I'm always like I'm too much for people sometimes.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_06: I mean it just and I feel it but I think we're headed in the right direction.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah how I look at my pastoral role when I was leading a church is I I know this will not land on some people well but I see my leadership of a church is almost like a a technical role like I I'm being asked to lead this and part of it is because I'm trusted at COS and uh people can you know somewhat look at my life and be like okay yeah I could see him being a pastor there's an actual calling but it's like it's calling to lead a church and then it's the technical term of that's the point person.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_05: Outside of that I just can't carry myself any other way than we are all shoulder to shoulder.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_05: I need you just like you may say that you need me we need each other and I feel like that's the only way I can carry myself as a pastor of a church.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm so thankful that that was fixed in people's minds with how they related to me because when I was in my mental health crisis I needed their help.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_05: You know I needed them to realize hey we're going to be without Joey for a little while and we love him and we're going to pull behind his family.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_05: And I obviously had that from you know Chip and our lead pastors and all but my church or if people I don't like using these words even though I do believe in some some spiritual depth of them because Jesus talks about it.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_05: But I think if pastors use it it could kind of come across weird but I needed the the flock the sheep to take care of the shepherd like I needed that.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_05: So we're we're wrap this thing up here.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_05: I do have one more question but Chip you look like you wanted to bounce in real quick.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I do think there's a concept we need to be careful with because I think both of you are on board with it but what both of you just said did not include it.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I go into a church I submit to the authority of the pastor.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't go into a church as if we're equal in that context.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: He's been given the responsibility of shepherding that flock your authority is always equal to your responsibility.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't carry the same responsibility he does therefore I don't carry the same authority.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: When I come into someone's church I submit to their authority.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: In other words I'm I it's on me to discern where their boundaries are their comfort zones are and unless God prophetically compels me to say something outside of their which occasionally he does then what I'm going to do is I'm going to submit to their current comfort zone and and play in the playground they give me I think part of what's happened in our current moment of history which makes you really effective at your job I'll just say that.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it helps.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it starts back with the Reformation that Jesse was referring to.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: What happened in the Reformation as an unintended consequence is the masses got the idea that I don't have to listen to authority anymore.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now the reason they got that idea is because the authority was so abusive.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the authority did it to itself but ever since the French Revolution the reformation which all happened about the same time by the way the Enlightenment what happened is human beings feel like I don't have to submit to authority.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: I am authority and I'm all the authority I need.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not a healthy perspective.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: We are never not under authority acknowledged or not submitted to or not we're never not under authority.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we should not want to be I don't want to ever live a second of my life that I'm not answerable to someone with skin.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Not just God but someone with skin.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's I was going to say subtle I'm not sure that's so subtle.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it's principles like that that we got to be careful we don't lose because you know we we use the body metaphor my eyes submit to my to my brain.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: My eyes go where I tell them to go.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: My hand goes where I tell it to go.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now the hand has value in and of itself but it's worthless if it doesn't submit to the authority of my nervous system.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: All of us have to be submitted to authority.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm invited into a church I'm given listen to this now this is important.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm given temporary authority temporary authority.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: Hey dude I want you to a workshop here's kind of what I'd love you to talk about and you got an hour.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well for that hour I have temporary authority but if I want another hour later I better figure out what the boundaries of their culture are and move them as much as I possibly can but without violating that pastor's authority.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Unless it's just purity abusive and unhealthy.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then I don't want to go back anyways.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah and I I agree with everything you're saying and I think that the reason that is so I I'll say that a lot of the crowd that I run with who unfortunately are are dechurched and maybe even they're sons of iniquity Joey.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_05: Fully deconstructed is they've seen that authority be mishandled so much and in such profound ways they literally have like an F that attitude.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_05: And I understand why.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah I think when done well and when infused by the Holy Spirit I would agree.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_05: Jesse I have one last question for you but um did you want to chime into anything we were just saying?
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah like I think that's exactly right.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_06: Like I think when we go into spaces like I was just you know meeting with a church this week and it's really important to just like I come into a counseling space and all of my thoughts on every situation aren't going to come out like in a counseling space.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_06: But um when we go into a church to teach on certain issues like it's important that like we are being respectful of the community that we're in and you know we're not we're not there to um start a revolution in every place we're there to be respectful.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_06: And I think we're called to mutually submit to each other in that way.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_06: I think that's what we're called to um not that we're submitting to like a person, a single person, but we're submitting to a community that's decided like and like Chip said like of course like you know if there are things like completely outlandish like it's we're not going to like come into that place and be in agreement with that.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_06: But we're submitting to a community out of respect for kind of their doctrines on certain things for sure.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah I think that's what we're called to as believers.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah I wanted to wrap up by revisiting what you said I thought it was interesting as far as the terminology of pastoral counseling.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_05: So I'll just I'll throw this at you would you say it would maybe be better to just have two distinctions good counseling and then good professional counseling.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_05: So in other words there may be you know man I need some real good godly counsel.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_05: If you're a part of a church you could probably reach out to a lot of people that don't have a title who could give you some really good spiritual counsel.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_05: They're they're a carpenter or they're a lawyer or what was behind pastoral counseling and professional counseling as far as the terminology?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_06: For me I think it just muddies the waters and I just wish there were there was more I wish we could make it more clear but I don't have a solution yet.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_06: I have no idea.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think an important dimension or that or aspect of that is if the the professional counseling community says you guys aren't real counselors, it's not going to fly.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: If there's a mutual or pastorally initiated I'm not equipped to do this, it's going to work.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: But if if the one tells the other you got to stop calling yourself a counselor, which is probably where our culture is moving that's it's just not going to fly.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're going to get the pushback and resistance and whatever.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: If there could be a communicated Jesse like what you were saying earlier if it starts with a right relationship we can get somewhere.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: If it starts with this and you don't have a right to call yourself what I am we're going to have a problem.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah um that's interesting.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_05: I would be totally comfortable with saying I can give wise counsel if you get me in the right moment.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not a counselor.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_05: I'm personally comfortable with that I would even be comfortable with saying I give decent pastoral counseling and I'd love to talk to you.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_05: I've seemed to have been able to help some people in the past not a counselor because for me when I hear counselor I hear that is what someone's been professionally trained for.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_05: And Chip I do have a a degree and I do have an M div, but I don't have to have it to be in my role at Seacoast.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_05: So I think that would even be a a very honest statement for a lot of pastors is I'm I'm not a counselor.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_06: I wish that the mental health field hadn't chosen that word because I do think it's like it's a very biblical word, you know, to seek wise counsel.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_06: Like I mean it's you know and so I just wish that we could reverse time and change what we call like sometimes I'll even you know you hear the word therapist and then people are like well what kind of therapist are you physical therapist?
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_06: Are you a you know so it's like I think the fault probably falls on the mental health side for what we chose to call it.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we're we're smart enough to wordsmith that we can figure something out.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean we're we're we collectively are smart people.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to say Joey for the record that everybody listening Joey said a minute ago that he gives wise counsel.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: We don't mean to fabricate unrealities on this podcast but what Joey said is not accurate and strike it from the record.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_05: So what he does Jess what what he does Jesse is he says this kind of stuff and then I need to go to him for counseling and it's like this twisted abusive circle