Latest / Into the Channel ⚽️ A Podcast Primarily About Women's Football / INTERVIEW: Author Clare McEwen | She Can Kick It: The History of Women's Football Across the World

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INTERVIEW: Author Clare McEwen | She Can Kick It: The History of Women's Football Across the World · Into the Channel ⚽️ A Podcast Primarily About Women's Football

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OK, welcome to Into the Channel, a podcast primarily about one's
0:08
football. A special edition of Into the
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Channel. I am your host Dino de Sesperis.
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We are joined by a special guest today.
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We're also joined by my Co host Mr. Grant Angle.
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What is up man? I'm feeling fantastic, buddy.
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And that is because our guest today is a writer, researcher,
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and epidemiologist at the University of Oxford.
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Her work has been published in multiple medical journals.
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And right about now, you might be you asking yourself, why on
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earth would a highly respected person with those credentials
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come on a podcast with two dopes like us?
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But that is because she is in love with the beautiful game.
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And you can find her other written work in the Women's
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Football Magazine available online at the Women's Football
0:45
magazine.com. And in her new book, She Can
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Kick It, The history of Women's football across the world,
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available for purchase on Amazon, of course.
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So go do that immediately. It is an honor and a privilege
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to welcome to the program Claire McEwan.
0:59
Wow, thank you for that introduction.
1:02
I hope I can live up to that billing.
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Oh, I'm sure you can. The book is absolutely
1:05
fantastic. Claire, we're very happy to have
1:07
you join us. Thank you very much.
1:09
Thank you very much for inviting me on.
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I want to get right into it because I mean, this was and,
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you know, obviously we're grateful you're on the show, but
1:16
I just had such a blast reading this book.
1:19
Like, you know, as soon as you, you and Dino connected, I was
1:23
happy to to order it on Amazon, get it shipped to the house and
1:26
immediately crack it open. In the book's introduction, you
1:29
talk about a 2019 match at Wembley Stadium being like this
1:33
kind of pivotal moment for you. And you know, later in that
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intro, you talk about, well, now feels like the right time to
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write this book. Is there another instance like
1:41
kind of between 2019 and and the book's publication where you
1:45
just got the bug and thought, okay, I got to write this book
1:49
now? I guess it's kind of been
1:51
building for a lot longer than that really.
1:54
In some ways I loved football from a very early age.
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I always wanted to write a book, never got round to it.
2:01
So I guess we got to this .2019, a game at Wembley, which made me
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realise there was a great gap in history that I didn't know this.
2:11
We England had had filled England, women had filled
2:15
Wembley and I'd sort of had we gone from, we haven't gone from
2:18
zero to this right overnight. So that start started it.
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Throughout the next few years it bubbled away in the back of my
2:26
mind. I should do this, I should do
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this. And then came the EUR which we
2:31
hosted in England and obviously England then went on to win or
2:35
went to a game and they UEFA had a lot of boards around with a
2:38
lot of history on it and there were little bits and pieces in
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that. And I thought, my God, this
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story is absolutely amazing. Why don't we know it?
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You can't just have this story available to the few people who
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can go to to matches, to these matches, to a Euros to see it.
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So yeah, I guess that was the major catalyst to write.
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I've got to get on and do this. Wonderful.
2:59
And I think Claire, we messaged a little bit about, you know,
3:01
sort of like the the early days. I found the the introduction of
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the book very moving. You know, the story with, you
3:06
know, your father at the ball and, and now obviously, you
3:09
know, your son and coaching and you know, kind of getting back
3:12
into it. Can you talk a little bit about
3:14
what it was like developing that love for football and, you know,
3:18
maybe some of the barriers that obviously your your book does a
3:21
great job going way, way, way back, back in time.
3:24
There's there's a little bit about, I don't know, I think if
3:26
I remember correctly, like China of a couple thousand years ago,
3:30
there was some, you know, maybe some artwork that that depicted
3:33
some some football ish type scenes.
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But tell me about your journey as a young person, you know, and
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kind of like what it was like developing that love for
3:40
football. Yes, you're right, the book does
3:43
go back way, way back in the past, but we don't have to go
3:46
that far back to find huge barriers.
3:50
Yeah. So I grew up in the 1980s in
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England in a little county at the very tip of England called
3:58
Cornwall, which some describe unfairly as backwards, even
4:02
though, which is not fair. But definitely if you're
4:06
expecting football for girls, it is fanning out from cities.
4:09
So it's getting nowhere near Cornwall, certainly in, in the
4:12
80s. It's good there now.
4:13
So I was probably 8 or 9 when I first fell in love with
4:16
football. And I, I guess I, I found it
4:20
through my dad watching matches on TV.
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There were there, there would be more matches on TV than perhaps
4:25
on terrestrial TV than there are today.
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But so my dad would be watching and shouting at the telly as we
4:32
all do and, and I got interested in it and I'd sit down and watch
4:35
with him and I learnt everything I know really about watching
4:40
football with him, listening to commentators, listening to him.
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And it wasn't long before I wanted to go out and play.
4:44
So I went out to play with my to try and to try and find people
4:49
to play with. I was very lucky that the local
4:53
boys were happy to let me join in.
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But I think I had to prove myself first.
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There's quite a lot of, well, we didn't know you're a girl, you
5:02
don't play football. But it didn't take me long to
5:05
serve before they accepted me as as sort of in amongst them,
5:08
which was lovely and very good of them.
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But, but I only got to play because I was good enough to not
5:13
spoil their game. So that happened in the park and
5:19
they let me play in the playground as well.
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But aside from that, there was, there were no other
5:23
opportunities. My school team, I, I'm pretty
5:27
sure we asked that if I could be part of the school team in
5:30
primary school. And that was definitely a no.
5:32
That was not a thing. There were obviously no girls
5:36
teams. The boys would go off on a
5:39
Saturday and play their matches. And I was stuck, you know,
5:43
wondering what to do with myself because I have nobody else left
5:45
to play with, really. I did briefly try and get a few
5:48
girls together to play and start my own team, but they didn't
5:51
last very long. Not everyone was as committed as
5:53
me. Yeah.
5:55
So there were a few opportunities, to be honest.
5:57
And yeah, that was it. The best I could get was
5:59
playing, playing in the park, in the playground.
6:02
That was one of my favorite pieces of the of the book is
6:05
that you organize other young women to play, young girls to
6:08
play, and you're the field general ordering people around
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and they're like, OK, maybe maybe Claire's a little too into
6:14
this and we don't want to play anymore.
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That's that's a great detail. Yeah, I mean, that is pretty
6:19
much, I'm sure what happened. I was, I was a bit of a
6:22
megalomaniac about it. I wanted to be captain, manager.
6:26
I organized it. I called it my ball.
6:28
I called the shots. Understandably, I couldn't keep
6:31
the team around me. You you mentioned you, you
6:35
referenced in the book, especially early on, a lot of
6:39
women that were drivers, you know, of like, sort of like
6:42
trying to break barriers. You must have felt some sort of
6:44
kinship, even though, you know, you grew up in the, you know
6:46
where I think we're, we're all, we're all eighties, 80s kids,
6:50
you know, on this. You must have felt a kinship
6:52
with some of those characters going all the way back.
6:54
I think the the book kind of kicks off in earnest like early
6:56
1900s. Was there anybody in particular
6:59
that you were like, wow, this is like, I feel like a spiritual
7:01
extension of this character. I don't know if I'd go as far to
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as to say that because I don't. I was nowhere near as tenacious
7:08
as they were. But yeah, there were definitely
7:13
women who who I felt if I had just pushed a little bit harder,
7:17
I could have been, you know, a have a parallel with Patricia
7:21
Gregory, who I claimed started the womens''s FA Cup through her
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persistence of not understanding why girls didn't play, not
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knowing they didn't really and saying, well, why don't why
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don't girls play? Getting girls together and then
7:37
realising this ban was in place and they couldn't go and play.
7:40
And then ultimately she helped start the Women's Football
7:43
Association in England, which then and their first competition
7:46
was the Women's FA Cup. So yes, the her writing to a
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newspaper and saying why don't girls play football sounds like
7:53
something I could have done for sure.
7:57
Yeah, absolutely. Take those writing talents, put
8:00
those to use. Of course.
8:02
I, I think one of the one of the first Seminole figures that you
8:06
talk about in the book is Lily Parr.
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And, you know, this is a person, you know, I I've never heard of,
8:11
frankly. And like, I'm almost ashamed,
8:14
like looking at all the names and like, as you talk about
8:16
these people, it's like, man, I have no idea who any of these
8:19
people are. I mean, so Lily Parr, she scores
8:22
nearly 1000 goals in her career between 1919 and 1953.
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Why did you look at her as kind of like a a good starting point
8:30
for the book? She's actually now quite well
8:32
known in England. She has a statue statue in the
8:39
football National Football Museum in Manchester in the UK
8:42
and is widely considered the best of her time and and for
8:47
quite a period afterwards. And she was part of the Dick
8:50
Kerr Ladies who were who are now quite have become in England, at
8:54
least into the football vocabulary as the women's first
8:59
major team. So, yeah, she has been, has has
9:03
become a sort of a sort of more well known name.
9:06
So she was probably the obvious starting point for me.
9:09
But like you, I throughout the book was ashamed at how little I
9:13
knew and about. Yeah, I mean, I'd, I hadn't, I
9:17
hadn't really heard of Lily Park when I started.
9:20
Not in not in the sort of sense that I knew that she'd scored
9:23
thousands of goals and which is, you know, you, you kind of would
9:28
know now, wouldn't you? Yeah, I mean, I was blown away
9:32
by that. Yeah, the greatest goal scorer
9:35
of all time sounds like. I mean, you're definitely up
9:38
there. You know, we've all heard of
9:40
Cristiano Ronaldo. It's, you know, Lily Parr was
9:43
not that far away from in her time from being.
9:47
Yeah. So, I mean, she was actually
9:48
probably, yeah, a reasonably easy starter for me in it with
9:53
it from within the context of English history.
9:55
I wanted to ask you, Claire, about the 1921 ban, how
10:00
devastating a decision was that because it it wasn't just in
10:03
England. Like I think that kind of
10:05
permeated out just, you know, whether it was explicitly kind
10:09
of like through the rules of the Commonwealth or maybe implicitly
10:11
it's like, OK, well, they're doing it, so we're going to do
10:13
it. Can you talk a little bit about
10:14
what effect the ban had? I mean, we are still recovering
10:17
from the ban. If the truth truth is, is, is
10:21
told the like you say it sort of proliferated out from England
10:26
because we were seen as the sort of custodians of the world's
10:29
game and everybody followed us. And yeah, I mean in in in
10:33
England, I mean the ban was 50 years.
10:35
So there's there's 50 years of of learning your trade and
10:38
getting better and getting fitter and women being active
10:42
and an equal part of society 50 years of that.
10:45
And then actually it was pretty much oppressed for another 50
10:49
years. We're really now only beginning
10:51
to sort of creep out of that in the last.
10:53
I don't well, I mean, I arguably since the EUR.
10:57
So, yeah, I mean, absolutely devastating because now not only
11:01
is that behind, but there's sort of you're constantly hearing
11:04
from some men on, I mean, they're trolls on the Internet
11:08
saying, oh, well, women's football's piggybacking on men's
11:11
and you're like, it's just not, not the truth.
11:14
So there's, you know, there's there's the physical aspect of
11:17
of women's football not being up there yet to a level at the as
11:21
men. So it's seen as inferior.
11:23
There's the, the trying to grow it in a sustainable way, but at
11:28
the same time realising there's this huge gap where we, we need
11:30
to try and make up time. And yeah, equally, sort of from
11:34
a equal rights kind of view, there's this, there's this, well
11:37
it's rubbish, not it needs to catch up, it's rubbish.
11:42
So yeah, absolutely devastating. Yeah, I feel like you see that
11:44
in so many areas of just society where systemic racism, misogyny,
11:49
sexism, those kind of things, they they don't just impact
11:52
people at the time. They set you back that amount of
11:55
time or maybe even have an exponential effect on that.
11:58
I think one of the awesome themes of the book is the
12:02
persistence though, the doggedness of these women coming
12:06
through over the years. I think one of the many
12:09
artifacts in the book that I liked and which is still pretty
12:12
complicated when you got to look at more of the details.
12:15
Manchester Corinthians touring Europe kind of being this global
12:20
force of like growing the game. Do you have a favorite fact?
12:25
And sorry to the audience, anybody who hasn't read it yet,
12:27
again, go to Amazon, buy the book immediately, have it
12:30
shipped to your house. Pause this podcast, buy the
12:32
book, come back. I digress.
12:34
Manchester Corinthians, I think they're playing around the 50s
12:36
and the 60s. Do you have like a favorite fact
12:40
or a favorite revelation about Manchester Corinthians?
12:43
I'm actually just reading another book solely dedicated to
12:46
the Manchester Corinthians, so go and check that out.
12:48
Doctor Gary James, I think it is absolutely incredible because
12:54
I've just scratched the surface of the Corinthians, but he has
12:58
interviewed players for oh, it's absolutely incredible.
13:02
It's like encyclopedic work. So I mean, my favorite from my
13:07
book was because it scratches the surface is, is the fact that
13:11
that there was a 1957 European Championships where they
13:15
represented England. They had come off the back and
13:18
now I know even more about it. They have come off the back of a
13:20
world tour. I mean, they literally took
13:23
these kids around. Percy Ashley was was the manager
13:25
and set it all up, took these kids around the world and some
13:28
of them were kids and, and toured all over the place.
13:32
And then they ended up in 1957 in Germany in a tournament in
13:37
Berlin, which obviously had lots of resistance and they carried
13:42
on anyway and, and represented England and won the trophy.
13:47
So effectively winning an early version of the EUR, just a
13:51
little team, a man, that's one man had set up with help from
13:55
his wife, I think, and and created this absolute force.
14:00
So yeah, that one, it's. Amazing.
14:02
Incredible. Yeah.
14:03
I think it's it really does blow your mind.
14:06
I mean, I think there was one bit about, I think a character
14:09
who was referred to as Miss Misses Walter Scott, whose first
14:12
name is still maybe unknown or maybe at the time of the writing
14:15
was unknown. And then you look at, you know,
14:17
like Pat Gregory, who, who you mentioned a little bit earlier,
14:20
this is a person that, you know, is still with us today.
14:23
Like, you know, so, you know, it kind of feels like ancient
14:25
history. But then to think that things
14:27
that feel like they sort of should be like ancient, some of
14:30
these characters are still with us today and and active and
14:33
doing things. Do you feel like, you know,
14:35
obviously that the band gets raised?
14:37
I think early 197070 or 71 and last few years we've seen a real
14:42
explosion in the women's game. You know, obviously like, you
14:46
know, the Emirates will be packed when we know when Arsenal
14:48
is playing Champions League final was a huge event.
14:50
World Cup was was amazing 2023. Do you feel like some of that
14:55
pent up energy has, you know, maybe 'cause, you know, maybe a
14:59
more, you know, visceral explosion in the sport?
15:02
Yeah, I actually really do. Yes.
15:05
It kind of feels like those floodgates have been opened and
15:09
all those years of, of women being denied, girls being
15:12
denied. And all of a sudden it's like
15:16
we've all of a sudden realized that we don't need permission
15:19
for this And, and we've sort of taken, taken it and run with it.
15:24
And yeah. And and this absolute explosion
15:26
has come from. And again, I mean, I think it's
15:29
like following following England from, from the ban.
15:32
I think the world has has partly followed England from, from this
15:35
win and that the, the 2022 win was a, was a, was a catalyst US
15:40
aside a bit because your story has been pretty awesome from the
15:43
start. But most of us have have sort of
15:46
and certainly Europe have have sort of followed this Germany
15:51
and Sweden. And there are countries in
15:52
Europe who have been, who have been excellent for years.
15:54
But even they have been pushed on, I think by by this explosion
15:58
from England, because people do look to us for, for, for
16:02
football. And like you say, Arsenal are
16:03
filling the Emirates. It's not, it's not even a
16:05
question anymore whether the women will fill the Emirates for
16:08
a big match. It just happens.
16:10
And yes, it feels kind of like this pent up frustration of
16:13
years and years of pushing. It's finally like pushed over
16:17
the edge and now. But we're unleashed.
16:19
Good luck stopping us now. There you go.
16:22
That's what I like to hear. I and I think this, this fits
16:25
perfectly into, you know, something that I was really
16:28
trying to Mull over. So I, I really loved reading
16:31
about like citizens and countries in Italy, Norway,
16:34
Sweden, Denmark, who were pushing on those bands back in
16:38
the 1960s. I love your line about, you
16:40
know, they, they've stopped asking for permission and you
16:43
know, those countries in those times you have a big civil
16:46
rights movement, which you could argue is waxed and waned even
16:49
today. It looks like we need to push
16:52
real hard again. Maybe I'll stay off that topic
16:55
at the moment. But when you think about those
16:57
countries and those type of folks pushing progressive views
17:00
and for equity and equality, do you think going back to the the
17:04
lifting of the ban, did they have an impact?
17:07
Did those neighboring European countries have an impact on
17:10
England's FA lifting the ban, the ban, pardon me?
17:13
Or was England so focused on themselves that they're allowed
17:17
to take credit for coming up with the idea of lifting the ban
17:20
themselves? Yeah, no, I don't think England
17:22
can take full credit for it. I think there is, there was,
17:26
like I say, there were individual stories all over the
17:28
place and some further ahead than us.
17:30
Some, I mean, the, the Scandinavian countries started
17:34
out with with good equality policies much, much sooner than
17:38
anywhere else. And therefore it wasn't really a
17:40
question for for them that women shouldn't, shouldn't play
17:44
football. It was they were equal because
17:46
this is, this is how we deal with things in these countries.
17:49
So I think the pressure then built individuals all over the
17:52
place. Question, question why girls
17:54
weren't playing football, why women weren't playing football.
17:56
These individuals then built their own teams and over time,
18:01
and Italy were pretty much instrumental in this early on
18:04
started to create championships, small championships for
18:08
international teams because they needed an outlet for it.
18:11
And these sort of independent events were happening more and
18:16
more often. So there were there were teams
18:18
from all over the place that come together, four or five
18:20
starters in Europe. They will be here, there and the
18:23
other way. And then over time UEFA realised
18:26
that this was a threat to them and their football and that they
18:30
were losing control. They didn't have control of
18:33
women's football. They have control of men's
18:35
football, but they didn't they they realised they needed to
18:38
take control of women's football.
18:41
And it was that really that led to to to everyone talking about
18:45
how they progressed forward and how and whether they continue to
18:50
pretend it isn't happening or whether they try and bring it
18:53
under controls of individual Football Association.
18:56
So yeah, England were not exactly trailblazing then
19:01
anyone. They were kind of nudged into a
19:04
corner by UEFA, who had been nudged into a corner by women
19:07
and men organising tournaments themselves.
19:11
Claire, I'm going to put you on the spot just a little bit.
19:13
So here at Insta Channel, we have an ITC Hall of Fame, so
19:18
only four players currently in the Hall of Fame.
19:20
Aaron Cuthbert is in, Eitanaboma T is in Orlando Prides, Corey
19:25
Dyke is in, and we just admitted Emily Sonnet for celebrating her
19:29
100th cap in conjunction with us doing our 100th episode.
19:33
So, you know, it's a little bit of a hodgepodge, but I want to
19:37
get a little bit serious. I want to open up the ITC Hall
19:40
of Fame. You're obviously, you know, a, a
19:42
well schooled historian. If you could put I'm going to
19:45
open it up. Graham.
19:45
I'm just going to, you know, just open the door here.
19:47
So FYI, sorry to spring this on you, buddy, but if you could
19:51
put, I'm going to allow Claire McEwen to put one historical
19:55
women's football figure into the ITC Hall of Fame.
19:58
Apologies for putting you on the spot.
20:00
Who gets the spot? I am going to go for Carol
20:03
Thomas, who was former England captain through the 80s, who
20:09
would have undoubtedly been my role model and on posters on my
20:12
wall if I'd have known about her, who has helped me with the
20:16
book and given her stories. And there has been extremely
20:19
supportive ever since. And her and her team were
20:23
finalists in the very first UEFA Euros in 1984 against Sweden,
20:28
lost on penalties as England like to do, but but then went on
20:33
to win a little World Cup Monday, Elito World Cup the
20:36
following year. So the most successful Lionesses
20:39
team until now. So yeah, Carol Thomas, England
20:43
defender, captain from the mid 1980s.
20:46
Amazing pic. You you read my mind, Claire.
20:50
OK, so literally the next question I have on the dock is
20:54
my favorite figure that I learned about in this book is
20:57
Carol Thomas, the 9 the nine year captain of the Lionesses.
21:01
She had a quote in the book that has stuck with me for weeks.
21:04
So everybody see boom, get the book right here.
21:07
They'll be handily shipped to you.
21:09
Let's see here. I want to make sure I get this
21:11
quote right. And so this is her, this is
21:13
Carol Thomas talking about that making that final in the 1984
21:17
Euros in your book. She says, quote.
21:20
I think the most disappointing thing is what could have
21:22
happened had we had the full FA backing.
21:24
From that point on, we were one of the best teams in Europe, if
21:28
not the world, with the right investment of time, resources
21:31
and money. Just think what could have been
21:33
achieved in the following years, not just for my generation but
21:37
all the subsequent generations of international players.
21:40
End Quote that I mean, I thought that was so perfectly said and
21:46
just so indicative of what these forces.
21:50
And I'm just going to go out on a limb and say largely men were
21:53
stopping. They were halting this progress
21:55
purposely and maybe purposefully, as you said, maybe
21:58
a threat to the men's game in their view.
22:00
What can you tell us about Carol now?
22:02
You got into a into it a little bit, but I know you said like
22:06
she would have been one of your heroes.
22:07
You mentioned in the book you didn't even know who she was in
22:09
the mid 80s. When people say Carol Thomas to
22:12
you, what? What are the first things that
22:13
come to your mind? Pioneer, for a start, leader.
22:17
She is very keen. She, she always says now that we
22:23
compete, you know, that they competed in their own time and
22:25
it is unfair to compare with now.
22:27
And she is much more circumspect than me about the impact on her
22:33
and her team as to what difference this would have made
22:36
in their lives. But I think if, if, yeah, I
22:40
mean, as she says, if, if they'd have been allowed to be, I mean,
22:42
they weren't even visible that even after this they weren't
22:45
even visible in in England. She, I think she, she went on
22:47
national TV the next day to talk about the final, the Euro for
22:51
the EUR final. But apart from that, nobody
22:54
really spoke, spoke about it. Now, she is a huge advocate for
22:57
telling her stories and telling the stories of the team and she
23:01
works tirelessly to make sure these stories are heard.
23:05
But really, we shouldn't need to hear them.
23:07
They should just be there. They are huge, huge part.
23:11
I mean everybody, everybody knows about Maradona handling
23:14
the ball against England in a similar period of time in the
23:17
mid 80s. And that was only a quarter
23:20
final. We everybody should know that.
23:23
Everybody should know that, should know the stories.
23:25
But she she's absolutely amazing about going out and telling
23:27
them. She is brilliant at
23:30
understating. I think a little about their
23:33
how, how their, their growth was stifled and it and it, it could
23:37
have been a huge catalyst and how we were as a women's England
23:42
team once amazing before now. But yeah, she's absolutely
23:46
incredible. She's a great advocate for the
23:47
game, great advocate for her, her time, and I keep trying to
23:52
encourage and encourage her as well as everybody else.
23:54
There's a lot of other people that she needs to write her
23:56
story down. Wonderful.
23:59
Well, please pass along our congratulations for what's
24:02
undoubtedly one of the least prestigious honours that Carol
24:05
Thomas will have received, becoming an IT favour.
24:10
So, so Claire, you're obviously an epidemiology background, you
24:16
know, so you understand sort of like virality, the game going a
24:18
little bit viral. Where do you think where we are
24:21
right now, 2025 with everything that's going on?
24:24
What do you see kind of coming right around the bend here for
24:28
the women's game? Well that's quite a tricky 1.
24:30
I hope we can learn to manage the growth into, into leagues.
24:35
I mean, in the US, you know that this is no, winning major
24:38
tournaments is no guarantee for a successful league.
24:41
It can take time for these things to grow.
24:43
I mean, you've nailed it now, but but it everybody expected it
24:47
sooner. And I think that getting people
24:50
out, getting people out to matches and, and continuing to
24:53
make this as accessible as possible at the upper levels
24:57
that there are in England, the WSL and probably for US winning
25:01
a Champions League again. But I think the issues probably
25:05
are further down the chain. We have to try and make sure
25:09
that lower levels of the pyramid are getting funding and getting,
25:15
I mean, in general, more money in into the game, full stop.
25:18
And that we keep that through sort of through to, to, to
25:21
grassroots and try and build it up for girls and make sure that
25:25
it, it is seen as just football, you know, which I don't, I
25:30
don't, it isn't at the moment for in terms of growth, well,
25:34
who knows, Who knows? It will eventually become as big
25:37
as the men's game, I've no doubt.
25:40
And there's no reason, you know, there's, there's plenty of
25:43
football, plenty of football fans to go round.
25:44
There's no reason for it to be a threat to anyone.
25:46
But yeah, I think in, in, in time it will, it will be as as
25:50
big as the men's game. But I think we have to
25:51
understand that that will take some time.
25:53
There are lots of things to think about.
25:55
We don't necessarily want to follow the same path.
25:58
There are different ways of doing it for a different
26:00
audience, and I think that should be taken into account.
26:02
And hopefully it will be. Yeah, it will be huge.
26:06
It's huge. Now it will be even bigger.
26:08
Yeah, I I love the point about you don't have to take the exact
26:12
same path as men's football. The cultures don't have to be
26:16
the same. Emma Hayes has said.
26:18
A lot of, I thought really important, thoughtful things
26:21
about, you know, building this USA program, you know, through
26:25
the lens of woman's ideals, woman's football ideals, woman's
26:30
athletes. I think that really makes a lot
26:33
of sense. And, and I've talked about it
26:34
ever since I started attending NWSL matches over here.
26:39
The vibes are, are totally different from a, a, a men's
26:42
league sporting event and they're just, they're just
26:45
great. It's a bunch of people that I
26:47
like hanging out with instead of, you know, sometimes maybe
26:49
you go to an NFL game in America and let's just say the
26:52
demographics skew a little differently.
26:55
Maybe some of those people I would not want to have a pint
26:58
with. But I, I, I think like one of
27:01
the things that I'm, I'm really kind of interested in, you know,
27:03
Dino and I were over here in America.
27:06
I've heard folks in England kind of bemoan the fact that over
27:12
here in America, Dino and I have access to watch every single
27:14
Premier League game like 5 minutes after they air or as
27:18
they're playing. And in England, obviously TV
27:21
rights are different. So over here we can watch nearly
27:24
every WSL match, we can watch every Women's Champions League
27:28
group stage and knockout stage matches.
27:30
We watch the Frown Bundis League of Liga F, the Premier League in
27:33
France. Did you ever, I mean, even as
27:36
the game started to grow, you mentioned like, things really
27:39
kind of started to kick up again.
27:40
Like, there are all these moments of like, positive
27:43
momentum. Things started to kick up again
27:45
in 2015 after England medals at the World Cup.
27:49
But did you ever envision that just all of this women's
27:52
football would be available on television and streaming?
27:56
Like, did did that even seem possible 10 years ago?
27:58
Nope, not even possible. Not even remotely.
28:03
But didn't even think. Didn't even think about it, just
28:06
never thought. And this is this goes back to my
28:09
the first match that at Wembley, the 2019 match that sparked me
28:12
wanting to write the book is that I spent the whole 90
28:15
minutes crying or fighting back tears thinking this is
28:19
happening. I cannot believe this is
28:21
happening. And yeah, same for, yes, I'm
28:26
insane for being able to watch, watch women's matches whenever.
28:29
I mean, YouTube's very good at showing them here at the WSL
28:32
Championship just to be able to switch on.
28:36
I mean, tonight I shall be able to watch England, Spain.
28:40
Just to be able to switch on the TV and see a women, women's
28:44
match is isn't incredible. I absolutely never would have
28:47
dreamed of it. It was a precious moment when
28:51
they came home for tournaments like the 2015 tournament when it
28:54
when more games were shown and England's games were all shown
28:57
and more games were shown. And that was probably the first
28:59
time that happened here to there.
29:00
Now 10 years later, just I mean, there's always games on.
29:03
You can watch game wherever you like.
29:04
There's there's always, like you say, there's there's so much
29:06
choice, you don't know where to start.
29:09
Yeah, it's wonderful. What a time to be alive, Claire.
29:13
I want to talk a little football.
29:14
Who do you enjoy watching Claire today?
29:16
Either A-Team or a club or players or some combos.
29:20
Who's who's right up your alley? OK, well, I'm a Manchester
29:23
United supporter and have been since I was a kid.
29:25
So obviously the men then they are not worth watching at the
29:30
moment. The women, the women.
29:32
So the women's team and I there, I think because again, they're,
29:36
they're so new. They only got together or got
29:40
back together. There's some historical teams,
29:43
but as a, as a, as a modern Man United women's team in, in 2018.
29:49
So I get to kind of see the evolution of a team in in real
29:54
life, which is nice. And they are they're a great
29:59
creative team. It is lovely to see how the team
30:02
works together. But to be honest, don't watch
30:04
anything. Thank you.
30:08
I'm just a fan. But yeah, Manchester United
30:11
Women, England, obviously. But I, I, I tell you what I
30:16
would like to watch more of is NWSL because it's a different
30:20
league. It's a different kind of league
30:21
I think to the WSL here at the moment in that it's quite, it's
30:25
quite open, isn't it? It's quite an open league, much
30:26
more, much more open. You never unpredictable.
30:29
Whereas I think the WSL is getting slightly predictable at
30:33
the top and that needs to change in the next few seasons I think
30:37
to, to keep the interest up in the WSL a little bit more
30:39
actually, to be honest. But yeah, if I had to pick one
30:42
single team, it'd be Manchester United for me.
30:44
Yeah, that that's always an interesting talking point,
30:46
whether it's better for, you know, the growth of the game to
30:50
have teams that are, you know, it's just superlative.
30:53
And now everybody's chasing, you know, sometimes, you know, you
30:55
think about Michael Jordan's Bulls in the 90s as an example
30:58
that you let that did a ton to grow basketball here in the
31:01
States. Obviously Chelsea outpacing in
31:04
terms of like, you know, how they've built that club and, you
31:07
know, the amount of money that they're spending there is a fun,
31:09
you know, top four race, you know, for the three Champions
31:12
League spots right now in the WSL.
31:14
So that that in itself is exciting.
31:16
And WSL, obviously ton of parity, different teams are
31:19
winning every year. I'm not, you know, so sure that
31:22
you know, one model is is necessarily better than the
31:25
other because it's fun to put it kind of like chase the Champs
31:28
and want you to try to knock them off their pedestal.
31:30
And I think you know it it teams like United and City are and
31:33
Arsenal are are pushing a bit. I do want to drill down just a
31:36
little bit. So Manchester United, that's
31:39
your squad. Let's let's rewind a little bit.
31:41
Claire McEwan, I'm sure you had a football spirit.
31:43
You you had a footballing style. Who on that Man United team, if
31:47
you said, Hey, I was, I, I, I could have been that person, You
31:50
know, if, if all the, you know, kind of dominoes broke, right,
31:53
this player plays exactly how I would have played if I got to
31:56
put on that kit. I think probably Ella Toon.
31:59
I always wanted to be on the thick of the action.
32:01
I always wanted to be right in the middle, pulling the strings
32:05
back to the megalomaniac of bringing the Whiff Girls team
32:07
together. I wanted to be in there bossing
32:11
that midfield a bit. Probably last season it would
32:13
have been Katie Zelem, perhaps so Grace Clinton these sorts of
32:18
roles where you're maybe Akira Walsh in England team Yeah in.
32:24
But actually I would have wanted to be scoring more goals.
32:25
So maybe not Kira Walsh. I I wanted to be in control of
32:29
everything. I wanted to be the hero.
32:33
But we will. We'll turn it down a bit and go
32:35
Ella tune. Love it.
32:36
Great. Yeah, great choice.
32:38
So Claire, before you've been very generous with your time and
32:41
we appreciate that. But before we get you out of
32:43
here, I like I mentioned, I'm living in Seattle, WA, Dino's in
32:46
Orlando, FL. We're here in the United States.
32:49
Obviously a big part of the book.
32:50
You give a lot of credit to the the USA program 1999.
32:55
People look at it as a a Big Bang of sorts.
32:59
Was it available to watch in England that that final?
33:03
How did you absorb it? Can you set the scene?
33:06
What did you see on that July day in 1999?
33:09
Yeah, it was available. It was probably our first
33:13
exposure of a huge tournament and I can I can remember
33:19
watching it and being as excited as everybody else about this
33:23
moment. Again, it appeared to come out
33:24
of nowhere for us here. To be fair, the US history is
33:28
relatively sure. I mean, they got to that.
33:31
You got to that point relatively quickly, but it was a huge deal
33:34
here. I think it felt like a different
33:36
world because it was not what we experienced and what we saw.
33:40
And I, I spoke to Rachel Brown Finnis, the ex England
33:44
goalkeeper for the book as well. And she talks of it being an
33:47
absolutely pivotal moment for her as as an England player to
33:52
see how it was done in the US. But yeah, it was, it was it, we
33:56
watched it here and probably there was nothing available
33:59
before the final, but it was it was it was available for us to
34:03
watch. And I can I can remember
34:04
watching it. I remember that moment when
34:07
Brandy Chastain swirls round her shirt.
34:10
And it was, that was probably the first time where where women
34:15
got to see that this was and girls got to see that that this
34:18
was something that women and girls played.
34:20
It may not have been here, but to see the crowds and to see
34:26
what they achieved in that moment was incredible.
34:31
And it was incredibly impactful I think throughout the world.
34:34
And it undoubtedly was a watershed moment.
34:37
And a lot of credit went to to the the organising team and, and
34:41
should have gone to the organising team and the players
34:44
themselves for drumming up so much interest to get to get this
34:47
huge global phenomenon. But it was the, yeah, the first
34:50
time we really, really saw it. And that impact was as big in
34:53
England as it was anywhere else. Very cool.
34:56
So the book is called She Can Kick it.
34:57
The history of women's football across the world via A girl in
35:00
love with the Beautiful Game. Love that title.
35:02
The author, Claire McEwan, thank you so much for joining us.
35:05
Thanks for dropping all the knowledge.
35:06
Very much appreciated. Thank you very much for having
35:09
me on, it's been a blast. Excellent.
35:11
And let me just say before the last thing before we get you out
35:14
of here again, Claire, we appreciate you coming on.
35:16
I would be remiss. You're you're right in the Venn
35:18
diagram of things that Dino and I like she can kick it.
35:21
Inspired by A Tribe Called Quest, Can I kick it?
35:26
Song, And I just want to say that in the words of the legend
35:29
Fife dog, Queen's legend Fife dog, this book really has a lot
35:33
of flavor. We appreciate you coming on.
35:35
Thank you for joining us and we will see everybody next time.