Latest / The ReForge Podcast / Introducing the ReForge Podcast (with Brian Keith) | ReForge 001

Transcript

Introducing the ReForge Podcast (with Brian Keith) | ReForge 001 · The ReForge Podcast

• 0:05
  Welcome to the Reforge Podcast.
• 0:07
  I'm Matthew Chang, and we're here to explore all things AI automation and the American worker proving that the American reindustrialization is possible.
• 0:17
  Pivotal pressing.
• 0:19
  Thanks for joining us today.
• 0:21
  Let's get into the episode.
• 0:23
  Brian Keith: Welcome to the Reforge Podcast.
• 0:25
  Brian Keith: I am Brian Keith, chief Marketing Officer at Chang Robotics.
• 0:29
  Brian Keith: We have here with us the man himself, Matthew Chang, founder of Chang Robotics, the guy who actually builds factories.
• 0:35
  Brian Keith: We also have Colin Russ here.
• 0:37
  Brian Keith: Russ is the, what are you, the podcast host in general, the energy enthusiast, et cetera.
• 0:43
  Brian Keith: We're gonna dive into this podcast on this first episode about the nature of the Reindustrialization problem and why it is that this is the right place to help all of you lovely viewers in your mission to also help re industrialize America.
• 0:57
  Brian Keith: Matt Colin, welcome to the show.
• 1:00
  Matthew Chang: Woo.
• 1:00
  Matthew Chang: Let's go.
• 1:01
  Colin Russ: Great to be here.
• 1:03
  Brian Keith: Here's the problem is we deindustrialized.
• 1:06
  Brian Keith: Obviously that's not the problem.
• 1:07
  Brian Keith: The problem is how do we re industrialize?
• 1:10
  Brian Keith: Pretty much everybody's realized that sweatshop labor is dumb and that it has all kinds of really negative externalities.
• 1:15
  Brian Keith: When you say slave labor is okay, just not here, unlimited pollution is okay, just not here.
• 1:19
  Brian Keith: Really bad things happen.
• 1:21
  Brian Keith: Everybody all already agrees with that, but how do you fix it?
• 1:24
  Brian Keith: That's what we don't agree on, and we have all the way from your random ex commentators who are anonymous with long AI written screeds, all the way up to things the administration says, or what McKinsey says about Here's how we should fix things.
• 1:36
  Brian Keith: But the problem is that almost everybody telling you how to re industrialize America does not actually build factories.
• 1:43
  Brian Keith: And so they're operating at best from an armchair perspective.
• 1:46
  Brian Keith: On this show you have, Matt and Colin are gonna bring you perspectives from actually doing reindustrialization type of activities.
• 1:53
  Brian Keith: And for folks who don't know Matt yet, matt, how many factories have you commissioned, which means press the big button to turn on.
• 2:00
  Matthew Chang: personally about 30.
• 2:02
  Brian Keith: And that's your finger on the button.
• 2:04
  Brian Keith: You're standing next to The factory owner is pressing the
• 2:07
  Matthew Chang: Yeah.
• 2:07
  Matthew Chang: I will stand next to the factory owner and So it's their factory.
• 2:11
  Matthew Chang: They paid for it, we're their helper, and we're gonna stand there to make sure it goes off.
• 2:17
  Brian Keith: many factories has a random Twitter and On Post are actually commissioned themselves?
• 2:23
  Matthew Chang: Zero.
• 2:24
  Matthew Chang: But there's also this confusion, Brian, everybody gets mixed up between a factory and a, and a machine shop.
• 2:31
  Matthew Chang: So right now on Twitter, we don't have common vernacular on what manufacturing is,
• 2:37
  Brian Keith: who shots fired.
• 2:38
  Brian Keith: I love it.
• 2:39
  Brian Keith: Uh, same question though for commissioning for factories.
• 2:42
  Brian Keith: For the average, how old is the average McKinsey consultant who writes of a PowerPoint for how to deploy a factory?
• 2:47
  Brian Keith: 25, 26.
• 2:49
  Matthew Chang: Yeah, I'd say 26 to 28.
• 2:51
  Matthew Chang: Um, you can usually gauge the age by how tight the, uh, the suit is on their calves.
• 2:56
  Matthew Chang: you know, so If they walk in and the the suit's hiked up on the calves you can see all the sock, or be even better, no sock.
• 3:02
  Matthew Chang: Then you, You're dealing with a
• 3:05
  Brian Keith: Excellent.
• 3:05
  Brian Keith: And how many factors have they
• 3:07
  Matthew Chang: Oh, absolutely zero.
• 3:09
  Brian Keith: Okay.
• 3:09
  Brian Keith: And then the average, uh, Trump administration appointee, who is doing their best to re industrialize America?
• 3:15
  Brian Keith: How many factories have they commissioned?
• 3:17
  Matthew Chang: Zero.
• 3:19
  Matthew Chang: you do have some good policy guys in there.
• 3:21
  Matthew Chang: But yeah,
• 3:22
  Brian Keith: it's true.
• 3:22
  Brian Keith: But the people writing the laws, they've commissioned zeros.
• 3:25
  Brian Keith: They have good intentions.
• 3:26
  Brian Keith: Now what about the average member of Congress who's making the laws surrounding Reindustrialization?
• 3:31
  Matthew Chang: Average would be zero.
• 3:32
  Matthew Chang: I suspect you got a few former industrialists in Congress, but it's a very small number.
• 3:37
  Brian Keith: So that sets the stage folks for the problem statement, which is that almost all the conversation, we all agree on the the eventual answer, but the how to get there is a jumble nest of people that have never pressed the button, nor been next to the person pressing the button.
• 3:51
  Brian Keith: Now, Colin, let's bring you up here.
• 3:52
  Brian Keith: Let's talk about your industrial experience and why you are a person who is the right person to shepherd America on this journey of talking with Matt and friends about re industrializing America from a guy who's actually pressed the button.
• 4:04
  Colin Russ: So, you know, I, I can't, uh, quite stack up to, to Matt's experience of 30 plus factories.
• 4:09
  Colin Russ: Um, but I've been around, you know, different elements of it from energy, from process automation, factory systems.
• 4:16
  Colin Russ: I've done kind of all the little pieces that.
• 4:19
  Colin Russ: People like Matt need, but he's done obviously the big stuff.
• 4:23
  Colin Russ: So, you know, I've worked in, you know, the family shops, you know, in-laws.
• 4:26
  Colin Russ: I'm, I'm in Erie, which is, you know, your quintessential dying rust belt post-industrial town.
• 4:32
  Colin Russ: Um, so I've seen a lot of those issues seen where these policies fail.
• 4:36
  Colin Russ: Um, and you know, where these.
• 4:39
  Colin Russ: Academic type industrialists, quote unquote, uh, really don't understand that disconnect between real world, what's happening and what we actually need.
• 4:50
  Brian Keith: My sister-in-law has a brother who was a diesel mechanic, and he got the sage advice of whenever you're looking for someone to work for, look how many fingers they have.
• 4:57
  Brian Keith: If the answer is less than 10, walk away because they're not gonna take more better care of your fingers than their fingers.
• 5:04
  Brian Keith: I currently have an injury on my forehead from doing some house remodel because I actually do stuff and I have all kinds of interesting injuries from.
• 5:11
  Brian Keith: Doing stuff.
• 5:12
  Brian Keith: And so perhaps one way we can judge besides pressing the button to start the factory is how many injuries have you personally suffered yourself or been around people who have gotten injured from actually doing stuff?
• 5:22
  Brian Keith: Uh, and, and carpal tunnel from a writing of PowerPoint does not count.
• 5:26
  Brian Keith: So, Colin, what's your worst
• 5:28
  Colin Russ: couldn't even, I, I couldn't even tell you what the, what the count is.
• 5:31
  Colin Russ: I mean, I, I'm, I'm one of those people that I'll make the irrational decision of yes, I could pay somebody X amount to do it, or I could spend three to four times that and 10 times as long to do it myself.
• 5:43
  Colin Russ: Um, so, you know, I, you know, renovating house right now, you know, taking down to studs because I.
• 5:50
  Colin Russ: You know, there's stuff I don't know, but at the end of the day, you know, I, I'm gonna learn it.
• 5:54
  Colin Russ: You know?
• 5:54
  Colin Russ: 'cause that's the reason why we have so few people out there who know how to do things.
• 5:59
  Colin Russ: They're not willing to just roll up their sleeves and be wrong every once in a while and learn and get better.
• 6:05
  Brian Keith: And that's the American spirit right there.
• 6:07
  Brian Keith: Is that, just do it.
• 6:08
  Brian Keith: Yes, there's legal, there's there's legal hurdles that you need to deal with, but just do this thing.
• 6:14
  Brian Keith: Guess column.
• 6:14
  Brian Keith: The two things that I don't do myself around my house that I won't touch, there's only two of them.
• 6:21
  Brian Keith: The first is Oh, three things.
• 6:24
  Brian Keith: Three things.
• 6:25
  Brian Keith: There's
• 6:26
  Colin Russ: can just encapsulate
• 6:27
  Brian Keith: is not scripted by the folks, in case we can't tell, of asbestos removal.
• 6:30
  Brian Keith: Two 40 and natural gas lines.
• 6:34
  Brian Keith: That's it.
• 6:35
  Brian Keith: Everything else I do
• 6:35
  Colin Russ: fair.
• 6:36
  Colin Russ: I mean, as long as you shut off the gas, you know,
• 6:38
  Brian Keith: I could do, I could learn it.
• 6:39
  Brian Keith: I don't have experience in it yet.
• 6:41
  Brian Keith: So everything else is fair game.
• 6:43
  Brian Keith: And I do hire experts as as appropriate.
• 6:45
  Brian Keith: But the idea of it's your home.
• 6:47
  Brian Keith: You will take care of it.
• 6:48
  Brian Keith: And of course you'll get injured in the process, but you will do it.
• 6:51
  Brian Keith: We used to always all have this idea about America, this is our home.
• 6:54
  Brian Keith: We will build it.
• 6:56
  Brian Keith: We all had that idea.
• 6:57
  Brian Keith: It was completely universal.
• 6:58
  Brian Keith: Talk to someone.
• 6:59
  Brian Keith: We found World War ii.
• 7:00
  Brian Keith: A hundred percent of the nation felt this way.
• 7:03
  Brian Keith: And then somewhere along the way, we now felt a place where, what percentage of Americans have the, of course we will build it ourselves.
• 7:11
  Brian Keith: Matt, what do you think?
• 7:11
  Brian Keith: What's the percentage?
• 7:12
  Colin Russ: Yeah.
• 7:13
  Matthew Chang: Oh man.
• 7:14
  Matthew Chang: it's Getting lower.
• 7:15
  Matthew Chang: Um, I, I'd say it's it's probably 25% of people have a hands-on attitude.
• 7:22
  Matthew Chang: You know that, and that's.
• 7:23
  Matthew Chang: Mine are, my wife has made the list for me, Brian, so I'm not allowed to do ladder work anymore.
• 7:30
  Matthew Chang: And I'm not allowed to refinish floors, so I'll add that to what you did.
• 7:33
  Matthew Chang: It's not that I can't, it's not, that I can't, it's beautiful when I do it, I just have trouble getting back up, you know?
• 7:38
  Matthew Chang: So, So, um, you know, I make a habit of doing that.
• 7:44
  Matthew Chang: I repair appliances in front of my kids.
• 7:46
  Matthew Chang: Anything I can fix without calling a service person, I'm gonna do.
• 7:49
  Matthew Chang: And and then if it's, If it requires a team, and special equipment, I'm hiring it out.
• 7:55
  Matthew Chang: just more efficient.
• 7:57
  Brian Keith: I'm looking at hiring out a stump, grinding, not'cause I don't want to do it myself.
• 8:00
  Brian Keith: My son's not old enough yet to help me, and so it's just half a day to a day of just suffering.
• 8:05
  Brian Keith: I won't learn anything.
• 8:06
  Matthew Chang: Right.
• 8:07
  Brian Keith: stump, but it's also, this particular stump is on top of a waterline, so it's one of those, ah, I'll just hire it out because I'm not, it's not gonna, it's not gonna make me better.
• 8:15
  Brian Keith: Whereas the other day I was doing some electrical work.
• 8:18
  Brian Keith: Uh, I went out and bought, bought a good multimeter and got along with ai, go diagnose a complex three-way switch problem where the previous electrician was a moron as much to my house tragically, and gotta really engage my brain deeply and I got better at electrical work.
• 8:32
  Brian Keith: Uh, again, not two 40 work.
• 8:34
  Brian Keith: Uh, so this idea of we're just gonna go make it better, but the problem that is, if our 25% down from a hundred percent in our grandparents' age, we're just gonna do it ourselves.
• 8:43
  Brian Keith: We're gonna make it better ourselves.
• 8:44
  Brian Keith: What's the answer to re industrializing America?
• 8:48
  Brian Keith: Is it changing the loss of the national level?
• 8:50
  Brian Keith: Is it making those 25% of people more powerful in some way?
• 8:54
  Brian Keith: Is it increasing that number from 25 to 50%?
• 8:56
  Brian Keith: Is it changing the culture?
• 8:59
  Brian Keith: Where do we actually push
• 9:01
  Matthew Chang: Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you some policy and then I'm also gonna give you some good news from the ground.
• 9:05
  Matthew Chang: Lemme start with the good news is Gen Z loves to work with their hands.
• 9:11
  Matthew Chang: And of course that's not universal, right?
• 9:13
  Matthew Chang: That that generation's getting dunked on quite a bit as they enter the workforce Um, but what my observation is, young people we're talking, you know, 25, 26, and.
• 9:23
  Matthew Chang: under Love working with their hands, in trades, welding, electrical work, plumbing work, installing robots, uh, robot technician work.
• 9:33
  Matthew Chang: um, and so we're having a lot of success in that category.
• 9:36
  Matthew Chang: And then just broadly across young people, I'm saying a lot of folks wanna work with their hands.
• 9:40
  Matthew Chang: They grew up, you know, at, at our age we grew up and these devices crept into our hands as we were alive.
• 9:49
  Matthew Chang: For them, it was in their hand when they were baby.
• 9:51
  Matthew Chang: And so now they're kind of craving more physicality in work.
• 9:55
  Matthew Chang: to find meaning.
• 9:56
  Matthew Chang: So that's good news is that we have a young, uh, workforce that wants to do it.
• 10:00
  Matthew Chang: It's also good news that trade schools are getting promoted now by current policy.
• 10:04
  Matthew Chang: And whenever I talk to trade school leaders, they're saying that enrollment's completely fault.
• 10:09
  Matthew Chang: Right now, I think people are starting to turn away from the four year undergraduate degree that's, you know, loads them up with debt.
• 10:16
  Matthew Chang: unprofitable careers and they're wanting to get into something where they could make money faster, do gratifying work, and have a path to entrepreneurship.
• 10:24
  Matthew Chang: So those, those are the good things.
• 10:26
  Matthew Chang: Um, what's missing, man?
• 10:29
  Matthew Chang: We gotta have a manufacturing czar in the country.
• 10:31
  Matthew Chang: we've got a Crypto czar, we've got a AI czar.
• 10:35
  Matthew Chang: We have certain cabinet level positions for things like energy and environment, um, department of commerce, all those sort of things.
• 10:43
  Matthew Chang: But we have got to have somebody that is organizing things at the high level.
• 10:48
  Matthew Chang: And Brian, you and I spend a lot of time on X.
• 10:50
  Matthew Chang: while all three of us do.
• 10:52
  Matthew Chang: But the people that are talking out there, it's like they just discovered a factory, They're like, oh, there's these things.
• 10:59
  Matthew Chang: They're boxes and, they, and products come out of them.
• 11:01
  Matthew Chang: And, and so we need to have robots in ai and oh, it's so much more complicated.
• 11:07
  Matthew Chang: Just in Collin's intro, you heard the subsystems that he's personally installed between process and electrical and you've got regulations, um, global supply chains.
• 11:17
  Matthew Chang: Uh, we need somebody that understands how things are built, helping to call the shots in this country so we can align everything.
• 11:26
  Matthew Chang: You know, we've got funding, we've got policy, um, we've got insurance.
• 11:32
  Matthew Chang: Nobody thought twice about insurance until the.
• 11:35
  Matthew Chang: straight of hor moves closed down, you know, a week ago or so.
• 11:37
  Matthew Chang: Right And now people are realizing you can't ship things without insurance, You can't produce things without insurance either.
• 11:43
  Matthew Chang: So there, there's so many elements of manufacturing that we've gotta get a handle on so we can streamline it and make it easy for the producers that want to build things in America.
• 11:54
  Brian Keith: Colin.
• 11:55
  Brian Keith: How does hope play into this?
• 11:57
  Brian Keith: In all the towns that were manufacturing hubs two generations ago, were starting downhill a generation ago, and right now, like places near where I live in Washington state, old logging towns, old factory towns are now drug dens where there's no actual hope.
• 12:11
  Brian Keith: Anyone who has hope, they all leave.
• 12:13
  Brian Keith: 'cause that's the way you, that's what you succeed in Aberdeen, Washington, is you leave.
• 12:16
  Brian Keith: If you stay there, it's not'cause you're winning, it's because you're a loser.
• 12:19
  Brian Keith: How do we change that for the places that we're, the places that built America?
• 12:24
  Colin Russ: I, I think that is one of the biggest challenges, frankly.
• 12:27
  Colin Russ: Um, you know, Matt, Matt alluded to, we've gotta have policies address it and part of it is obviously the actual pieces building it, but we've gotta get policy in there that also creates opportunities in these communities because you just said it, people leave if there's not a chance, Erie is, That's the case here with population decline.
• 12:49
  Colin Russ: You know, folks are on, you know, data as a job shop or something like that.
• 12:53
  Colin Russ: His kids grew up, went to college, came doctors and lawyers, and didn't come back because they saw no opportunity.
• 13:00
  Colin Russ: They saw no future.
• 13:01
  Colin Russ: We've gotta be able to create that hope.
• 13:03
  Colin Russ: We have to be able to create an environment where kids see that there are opportunities, not just to make a good living, but to raise a family, to, to be part of your community, to have an impact.
• 13:15
  Colin Russ: And, you know, at the end of the day, take pride in what you're producing.
• 13:18
  Colin Russ: You know, it's, it's one of those challenging things that people.
• 13:24
  Colin Russ: Aren't quite sure how to address.
• 13:25
  Colin Russ: You know, you look at simply something as silly as you know, what's the dating life like?
• 13:29
  Colin Russ: How are you going to get these really smart, you know, motivated young people to stick around if they don't have an opportunity to date people if there isn't a dating pool type of thing.
• 13:38
  Colin Russ: It's dumb things like that that aren't gonna be written into policy, but we've gotta take kind of that broad brush of.
• 13:44
  Colin Russ: We can't leave any stone uncovered when we try and fix this.
• 13:48
  Colin Russ: So it, it's, it, I think if we had a magical, you know, button to flip or whatever, we'd hit it.
• 13:54
  Colin Russ: Um, but it, you know, we have these communities, Erie being one of'em where people have heard for 25, 30 years, promises from politicians, they're gonna bring the jobs back, they're gonna do this.
• 14:06
  Colin Russ: None of it pans out.
• 14:07
  Colin Russ: You know, the, the, the promises don't really mean much.
• 14:10
  Colin Russ: Um, so I, I think it's hard for people to get super excited about a lot of this conversation when they've heard it in one way or the other for a couple decades now, and nothing to show for it.
• 14:23
  Colin Russ: But honestly, it's, it's gotten worse in a lot of respects.
• 14:26
  Brian Keith: Well, it's a who to trust problem.
• 14:27
  Brian Keith: It's easy enough to say, does Elon build cool stuff in factories?
• 14:31
  Brian Keith: Why?
• 14:32
  Brian Keith: Yes, he does.
• 14:33
  Brian Keith: But let's name 10 people less famous than Elon Musk, who also build cool stuff in their factories, who employ tens of thousands of people, build stuff in the USA.
• 14:46
  Brian Keith: Where is that?
• 14:47
  Brian Keith: It's sort of like, uh, EV.
• 14:48
  Brian Keith: Everyone says, I wanna be on Joe Rogan.
• 14:50
  Brian Keith: I wanna be on Joe Rogan.
• 14:51
  Brian Keith: Okay, that's fine.
• 14:52
  Brian Keith: Everyone wants to be on Joe Rogan, who's the tier of PO podcast below Joe Rogan that you wanna be on, that you can actually attain if we don't have local business leaders who are impressive, like.
• 15:00
  Colin Russ: this obviously,
• 15:02
  Brian Keith: I, I, if you ask me who is the biggest manufacturing, uh, individual person that you can trust in Washington state who's bringing manufacturing to Washington State, my answer is to laugh at you because our specialty is driving manufacturers away.
• 15:15
  Brian Keith: Like Boeing.
• 15:17
  Brian Keith: We take our manufacturers, we make the business climate horrible for them.
• 15:20
  Brian Keith: We tax the workers and then we raise property values and, and gas taxes until they leave.
• 15:26
  Brian Keith: And so there's no hope or trust in the manufacturing center.
• 15:29
  Brian Keith: Of Washington state, but it's like that around the nation.
• 15:31
  Brian Keith: Like Matt in Florida, who is the leading manufacturing voice in the government.
• 15:37
  Brian Keith: The, the icon, the manufacturing icon in Florida is there one.
• 15:43
  Matthew Chang: Um, hopefully soon it'll be me.
• 15:46
  Matthew Chang: Uh,
• 15:47
  Brian Keith: you're too busy building factories, man.
• 15:48
  Brian Keith: You got time for that crap.
• 15:50
  Matthew Chang: Yeah, You know, that's, that's the challenge is.
• 15:53
  Matthew Chang: We do have some advanced manufacturing in Florida.
• 15:56
  Matthew Chang: We've got the Space Coast, you've got SpaceX down there doing Rocket assembly.
• 16:01
  Matthew Chang: Uh, you know, Jacksonville, where I live, we, we make 40% of the world's contact lenses come out of Jacksonville, Florida.
• 16:08
  Matthew Chang: Really cool story.
• 16:10
  Matthew Chang: Super clean factory.
• 16:11
  Matthew Chang: You wouldn't even know it's there.
• 16:12
  Matthew Chang: Um, we're putting a huge emphasis in Space Tech.
• 16:15
  Matthew Chang: We've got several startups doing, you know, satellite technologies, uh, hypersonics.
• 16:22
  Matthew Chang: from the Tampa area.
• 16:23
  Matthew Chang: Uh, it's a, it's a product we can all enjoy.
• 16:26
  Matthew Chang: So you do have these pockets, but, but Florida is a state that is now discovering its manufacturing prowess.
• 16:33
  Matthew Chang: Um, they made the decision, that was pretty high profile a few years back to say no hyperscalers, no ai.
• 16:40
  Matthew Chang: And our governor, who's known for making statements that make the headlines, he came out and said, we're not gonna do the AI data centers.
• 16:47
  Matthew Chang: The benefit of that is we still have plenty of electricity in the We're not one of these states that, that gave it all away to AI data centers with no property tax.
• 16:56
  Matthew Chang: Um, what we choose to do with that land.
• 16:59
  Matthew Chang: And that energy has gotta be a focus on advanced manufacturing.
• 17:03
  Matthew Chang: And it's not the, um, it's not the stuff that gets trendy by economic development.
• 17:09
  Matthew Chang: So, you know, over the past couple years, what was so trendy was an an electric vehicle startup.
• 17:14
  Matthew Chang: How many EVs did you hear were coming back?
• 17:17
  Matthew Chang: Um, and then the, the battery, you know, giga plants, Savannah in our area takes all those.
• 17:23
  Matthew Chang: Georgia loves battery Um, my attitude towards those have always been, I don't want any industry if we're not getting the intellectual property that So for anybody that wants to produce in Florida, what I want to see is what you've had in a legacy of, in Washington, and you're kind of, you're kind of spoiling your birthright right Which is the innovators live here.
• 17:46
  Matthew Chang: The r and d lives here, the engineers live here.
• 17:49
  Matthew Chang: The researchers and the scientists live here, and the manufacturing plant is here.
• 17:53
  Matthew Chang: If we get the total package, then I want it in the state, we don't get that.
• 17:57
  Matthew Chang: I don't want it because those, those industries, like EV batteries, those come and go, man, that's gonna be an empty box.
• 18:06
  Matthew Chang: You know, 10 years from now when the technology changes and they can't retool that plant.
• 18:10
  Matthew Chang: And it's gonna be the same story that places like Erie, Buffalo, Youngstown have heard for years where they fixed in on an infrastructure, but then when the world changed a little bit, it was obsolete and nobody wanted to revitalize it.
• 18:24
  Brian Keith: This is a fractal observation around all the companies headquarters in with some US state or distributed by with some US city, but it's actually manufactured somewhere else where we have the IP here.
• 18:36
  Brian Keith: But then all the jobs and the, the factories went somewhere else where we could have hire people at slave labor rates under dangerous conditions, because who cares if they die?
• 18:45
  Brian Keith: And that was, that's in international policy for decades.
• 18:47
  Brian Keith: And then we thought, oh, we'll just hold IP so it'll be wealthy.
• 18:51
  Brian Keith: Well, how well did that work out for London?
• 18:52
  Brian Keith: Not too well.
• 18:55
  Matthew Chang: Yeah.
• 18:55
  Colin Russ: when you have nations, you know, foreign nations that aren't particularly concerned about respecting, you know, intellectual property rights, anything like that, it's pretty easy to crack something open and reverse engineer it and then just go make it for, you know, a 10th, a hundredth of the price.
• 19:09
  Colin Russ: 'cause you don't have any of that upfront investment.
• 19:11
  Colin Russ: Uh, you know, it's, it's, that's policy unfortunately isn't going to change that.
• 19:15
  Colin Russ: But at the end of the day, our ability to manufacture, produce, design, everything end to end here.
• 19:21
  Colin Russ: That's where, that's how we protect IP is not having to ship it overseas, not allowing them to hack into, you know, accounts and basically steal plans for the F 35 components and magically see six months later, you know, something that looks uncannily similar.
• 19:37
  Brian Keith: And this brings us to how we treat workers, that if it, if you outsource all the dirty, dangerous work somewhere else where you don't care about the workers, and they're like, okay, well.
• 19:46
  Brian Keith: They don't have our laws, therefore we now have a higher margin.
• 19:49
  Brian Keith: So who cares?
• 19:51
  Brian Keith: It's all good.
• 19:52
  Brian Keith: What you're talking about, both of you is, uh, restoring the dignity of the American worker, including more pay, safer conditions, but also the religious aspect of what we're doing in America.
• 20:02
  Brian Keith: Can you speak to that map?
• 20:03
  Brian Keith: Because this is, we're, we're missing a national conversation manufacturing, but we're really, really missing the national conversation of manufacturing as it relates to God.
• 20:12
  Matthew Chang: Yeah, totally.
• 20:13
  Matthew Chang: Yep.
• 20:13
  Matthew Chang: So.
• 20:14
  Matthew Chang: let, we'll kind of set the frame, I believe, and I've witnessed firsthand, I think the United States is in the, the beginning stages of a national revival.
• 20:22
  Matthew Chang: And, um, and I mean that the, the nation is rediscovering their relationship with God and is learning to trust in God first.
• 20:31
  Matthew Chang: The more complex, and the nor more technologically advanced the world gets around us.
• 20:36
  Matthew Chang: Then the less we feel in control.
• 20:38
  Matthew Chang: And people need dependence.
• 20:40
  Matthew Chang: They need to feel dependence to feel a need for God.
• 20:42
  Matthew Chang: And I see that happening.
• 20:43
  Matthew Chang: Um, I think it's gonna take the nation by storm.
• 20:46
  Matthew Chang: I personally already conditioned to see it everywhere I go, but I think the audience will start to see that over the next few years.
• 20:53
  Matthew Chang: Um, one of the things that is biblical and, and Brian, you know, I love to talk about what is biblical, is that, you know, we were put here to subdue and cultivate.
• 21:04
  Matthew Chang: We were not put here to outsource.
• 21:07
  Matthew Chang: Right.
• 21:07
  Matthew Chang: Man was made to subdue and cultivate and then it's our job to be good.
• 21:11
  Matthew Chang: Both good stewards of the land.
• 21:14
  Matthew Chang: we need, we have a beautiful country.
• 21:15
  Matthew Chang: We need to keep it beautiful.
• 21:17
  Matthew Chang: We don't need to pollute it.
• 21:18
  Matthew Chang: Um, but we need to work the land and make it productive.
• 21:21
  Matthew Chang: And that includes putting manufacturing facilities, supply chains and then all the way from agriculture up to finished good products that we have those resources available within the boundaries of this country.
• 21:33
  Matthew Chang: Um, I think one of the big debates that we're, you know, Colin and I are gonna figure this out over the next year.
• 21:41
  Matthew Chang: do we need a sheen?
• 21:43
  Matthew Chang: That is the trending thing on X is, is who's building the sheen of America And to me, you're already behind.
• 21:50
  Matthew Chang: You're playing catch up if That's the frame.
• 21:53
  Matthew Chang: One of the strengths I think we have is the geographic diversity and the regional diversity of this country.
• 21:58
  Matthew Chang: You have powerhouses and, and that's why we think of the Rust Belt.
• 22:02
  Matthew Chang: The way we do is that these towns were once fantastic best in the world at producing certain things.
• 22:09
  Matthew Chang: We.
• 22:10
  Matthew Chang: Washington State was the best at producing commercial aircraft in the world.
• 22:15
  Matthew Chang: Right.
• 22:15
  Matthew Chang: Among many other things and getting your package to you in two hours.
• 22:18
  Matthew Chang: All kind of amazing technologies.
• 22:21
  Matthew Chang: I think our geographic strength plays off our, um, the diversity of our intellect and the more that we have regional centers of excellence around the country, the more that each of those little centers of excellence, whether it be Erie or Washington or Florida, we can all bring those into the national pot.
• 22:39
  Matthew Chang: To make an amazing, amazing recipe.
• 22:42
  Matthew Chang: So what I'd personally like to see is that we really doubled down on the communities, and That's why I'm glad Colin talked about that.
• 22:49
  Matthew Chang: We, we need people to care about their communities that feel bought in.
• 22:52
  Matthew Chang: That means we need to have a middle class where people have a, a career mobility, and that a, a day's hard labor is rewarded When we have that, then what I think we're gonna see is it's gonna cure a lot of the symptoms that there's no one to date.
• 23:09
  Matthew Chang: There's no good jobs in my town.
• 23:11
  Matthew Chang: It's gonna lead to revitalization, to cool culture, to better restaurants, all the things that we want in our cities.
• 23:16
  Matthew Chang: When we can bring that back.
• 23:18
  Matthew Chang: And my my opinion is we don't need to focus on Xen, you know, which is this mega manufacturing metropolis for the audience in China.
• 23:26
  Matthew Chang: We need to focus on rebuilding communities and then getting the people in those communities to innovate, to be entrepreneurial, to be hardworking, and to come up with their own way to contribute.
• 23:36
  Matthew Chang: We already have amazing transportation.
• 23:38
  Matthew Chang: We have a highway system that connects the entire country.
• 23:40
  Matthew Chang: We have a rail system We have the best airport system in the nation.
• 23:44
  Matthew Chang: We don't need anything else.
• 23:46
  Matthew Chang: Uh, we need to add a little bit more electrical capacity as we go.
• 23:49
  Matthew Chang: Uh, but I think as we bring online new manufacturing facilities and parts of the supply chain, it's just gonna fix all the, the issues that Colin siding with places like,
• 23:58
  Brian Keith: do you remember what it was said, uh, that Yamamoto said when he was asked about what, why don't you just invade the United States during World War ii?
• 24:05
  Brian Keith: He said, because there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass you're making me think about because there'd be a factory behind every blade of grass and having actual local sovereignty, the whole, uh, what's the come and take it except it's come and make it.
• 24:22
  Brian Keith: And it's a picture of a 3D printer.
• 24:24
  Matthew Chang: There you go.
• 24:25
  Brian Keith: you go.
• 24:25
  Brian Keith: But make that for the whole nation where when you're looking at, you're getting outta high school, that of course you could go apply to the local factory where I live.
• 24:32
  Brian Keith: The Olympia Brewing Company was the biggest factory here.
• 24:35
  Brian Keith: It shut down in oh three or so.
• 24:36
  Brian Keith: It's still sitting there as a drug den 20, uh, 23 years later because the government's powerless to go do anything about it.
• 24:44
  Brian Keith: And no one wants to manufacture anything 23 years later.
• 24:48
  Brian Keith: And so.
• 24:49
  Matthew Chang: Yeah, I mean, look, we can talk about this national security issue too, which is, um, if, if we put all of our resources in one place, then they're pretty easy to sabotage or right?
• 25:01
  Matthew Chang: And you see that happening right now in Iran.
• 25:03
  Matthew Chang: One of the reasons that their ability to, to launch projectiles at other countries is dropping is'cause we went in, in the first couple days and we took out every factory that made cruise missiles and drones and ballistic missiles.
• 25:16
  Matthew Chang: So now they have no resupply.
• 25:17
  Matthew Chang: And so I think that's a strategic vulnerability globally.
• 25:22
  Matthew Chang: Think about it.
• 25:22
  Matthew Chang: we have this with Taiwan, right?
• 25:24
  Matthew Chang: We don't get computer chips unless Taiwan stays up and running.
• 25:27
  Matthew Chang: And that's why we talk about Taiwan.
• 25:29
  Matthew Chang: Um, so that's a choke point.
• 25:32
  Matthew Chang: I don't think it's in our best interest to have, uh, you know, strategic choke points in the country.
• 25:36
  Matthew Chang: I think, I think I want Collins Town to produce, I want your town to produce.
• 25:40
  Matthew Chang: Um, I, I'm gonna keep going back to Youngstown.
• 25:43
  Matthew Chang: I want Youngstown to produce.
• 25:45
  Matthew Chang: and Certainly where I live in Jacksonville, Florida, we're gonna pull our weight and do our fair share.
• 25:50
  Colin Russ: I mean, I think that that's inevitably the, the right path for America.
• 25:54
  Colin Russ: You know, you mentioned kinda that concentration risk a hundred percent, but beyond that just intellectual piece, you lock everybody in the same room.
• 26:01
  Colin Russ: They're gonna end up with the same idea at the end of the day.
• 26:04
  Colin Russ: We want people producing and effectively building together, but separately because we're going to see improvements in how things can be done just by having that separate thinking and approach and development.
• 26:16
  Colin Russ: And that's how we reinforce and build better and more and quicker.
• 26:19
  Colin Russ: And everything you want is by bringing those different kind of lessons learned and experiences.
• 26:25
  Colin Russ: But on top of that, you know, getting back.
• 26:27
  Colin Russ: That's how we build communities, you know?
• 26:30
  Colin Russ: Ha.
• 26:30
  Colin Russ: Forcing everybody into that same mold of centralized American shenzen.
• 26:34
  Colin Russ: No.
• 26:35
  Colin Russ: We want that different perspective.
• 26:38
  Colin Russ: What's Florida?
• 26:38
  Colin Russ: You know, been able to show what, what are they doing that we can learn from?
• 26:42
  Colin Russ: What's the West coast, east coast, Midwest, bringing all that in that reinforces and strengthens our ability to produce and limits.
• 26:51
  Colin Russ: You know, we avoid that.
• 26:53
  Colin Russ: A bus problem where who gets hit?
• 26:55
  Colin Russ: If somebody gets hit by a bus who's picking up the slack.
• 26:58
  Colin Russ: We need the network approach where we can really, you know, build in that redundancy.
• 27:05
  Matthew Chang: Yeah.
• 27:05
  Matthew Chang: Love that.
• 27:06
  Matthew Chang: All right.
• 27:06
  Matthew Chang: Well, we might've solved it early, Brian.
• 27:07
  Matthew Chang: We were gonna give ourselves a year to, to parse that out, but we might just spend a year on.
• 27:12
  Matthew Chang: unpacking it then.
• 27:13
  Brian Keith: Well, it's, it's the, the context of how did we get here is so important because it's a big problem and it's rare that so many people agreeing what the right answer When I was in high school, that was when you had the WTL rights in Seattle.
• 27:26
  Brian Keith: And I remember, uh, a buddy of mine, Chad, you were right.
• 27:30
  Brian Keith: Chad.
• 27:30
  Brian Keith: Chad said to me, you're worried about government power, but you should be worried about corporate power.
• 27:35
  Brian Keith: And at the time I thought he was just a communist.
• 27:36
  Brian Keith: No, no.
• 27:37
  Brian Keith: He was actually very insightful that the corporate layering of power, the government, outsourcing the corporate, what government was not allowed to do was a big problem back in the aughts.
• 27:46
  Brian Keith: And it's only gotten worse.
• 27:47
  Brian Keith: And there's a lot of people that make a lot of money by concentrating and so they can control them.
• 27:52
  Brian Keith: Because then if there's only three companies you have to go bribe.
• 27:56
  Brian Keith: It's pretty easy to bribe or threaten those three companies of people.
• 27:59
  Brian Keith: But if there's 300 companies of people, it's really hard to bribe or threaten 300 companies.
• 28:04
  Brian Keith: My grandpa grew up in Massachusetts where his father was a floor layer, but when he got outta the military from World War II with a airplane mechanic background, where was their jobs?
• 28:14
  Brian Keith: Seattle.
• 28:14
  Brian Keith: And that's why he grew up here, because you had to go to one spot to practice your craft.
• 28:19
  Brian Keith: But with modern technologies, that's just not true anymore for so many different things.
• 28:22
  Brian Keith: So the idea of why doesn't.
• 28:25
  Brian Keith: Uh, America have 50 different airplane manufacturers and 50 different of this and that, and then you actually can work at your local one, or you can go move to a different state depending what you wanna do.
• 28:34
  Brian Keith: But there's serious competition for jobs across the manufacturing spectrum.
• 28:39
  Brian Keith: Why not do that?
• 28:40
  Brian Keith: So this podcast is gonna walk down that path of how do we actually do that?
• 28:44
  Brian Keith: How do we rein, industrialize America, not by creating another Boeing, but be creating, but by creating the Boeing in your backyard for all kinds of small things, and maybe you haven't thought of like contact lenses and not just machine shops, but actually bigger than machine shops, actual factories.
• 29:00
  Brian Keith: That's what this live stream is gonna focus on, and you can share with all your friends who want to also be involved in this, but be hearing from people that actually do it.
• 29:09
  Brian Keith: Matt, how many factories are you building right now?
• 29:11
  Brian Keith: All the way from initial conversation to You're pressing the button
• 29:15
  Matthew Chang: Yeah, we're not, we're not actually pressing any buttons today, but we have six new factories in design right now we will be helping our clients press the button on Um, so we're working on six.
• 29:27
  Matthew Chang: We've probably got internal to our capacity, probably room for another two to three more before we're overloaded.
• 29:36
  Brian Keith: And so that's what you're gonna get from this podcast folks, is people stories from the front that are informed by actually doing the thing, not talking about the thing and not having read yet one more long AI written thread on machine shops on X.
• 29:50
  Brian Keith: And Matt, for the people listening who say, but wait, I want to go work more closely with you.
• 29:55
  Brian Keith: Or, I'm an engineer, or I want to be in manufacturing.
• 29:59
  Brian Keith: I don't want to go work in a white collar job in some office where AI's about to kill my job.
• 30:04
  Brian Keith: How do they explore working within your system of all those factories you're building or for your own
• 30:10
  Matthew Chang: Yeah.
• 30:11
  Matthew Chang: Yeah.
• 30:11
  Matthew Chang: I mean, if, if somebody wants to work with us directly, they can, uh, apply for a job on our website.
• 30:18
  Matthew Chang: we respond to all comments on our website.
• 30:21
  Matthew Chang: If somebody has an inquiry, uh, sometimes it's for speaking engagement or to go support a, you know, school, career day, you know, anything like that.
• 30:28
  Matthew Chang: Um, and then for any customers that that wanna find us inbound, they can just, you know, DM you or me, you know, on, on X or LinkedIn or wherever they want to, and we'll, we'll get back with them.
• 30:40
  Matthew Chang: But, you know, the, one of the things too I wanna focus on is we're gonna bring a diversity of experts in here.
• 30:45
  Matthew Chang: We're gonna have the finance guys the funny ones like Robert Sterling.
• 30:49
  Matthew Chang: we're gonna have nunchuck wielding, um, manufacturing guys like Adam Rossi on here.
• 30:55
  Matthew Chang: And it should be a fun crowd.
• 30:58
  Matthew Chang: Uh, one of the things I wanna address though, is there was one comment that I got on X, of which guys, like you and me get many comments that, um, the, the poser of the question did not leave satisfied with the answer.
• 31:13
  Matthew Chang: So we're gonna spend extra time on that.
• 31:14
  Matthew Chang: And it was a mom who said to me, I don't wanna see manufacturing come back to America because I don't wanna see my kids work in a factory.
• 31:23
  Matthew Chang: in her current paradigm, I know Colin, I'm sorry.
• 31:26
  Matthew Chang: sorry to do that to you.
• 31:28
  Matthew Chang: In her current paradigm of America.
• 31:30
  Matthew Chang: She loves the college.
• 31:32
  Matthew Chang: You know, take the SAT, go to a good college, um, go work at a a white collar job whether finance or consulting or what have you, and then stock money away in your 401k and then you're guaranteed a retirement when you're 65 or 69 or whatever.
• 31:48
  Matthew Chang: it is.
• 31:49
  Matthew Chang: um, we're gonna go, we're gonna speak to that mom quite a bit.
• 31:55
  Matthew Chang: Because what we want people to understand is when you go to work, the way Colin goes to work or that I go to work.
• 32:00
  Matthew Chang: More importantly, my engineers and our team go to work, is it's a cool job and factories are cool places.
• 32:06
  Matthew Chang: We're installing incredibly high end technology.
• 32:09
  Matthew Chang: Every factory we go to these days has a 3D printer.
• 32:13
  Matthew Chang: Everyone has advanced software, and by the time we leave, everyone has autonomous robotics and cobo and automated processing systems.
• 32:23
  Matthew Chang: There is more compute power in these factories uh, improving Then you might have a Bitcoin mining cluster, right?
• 32:31
  Matthew Chang: I mean, these are, these are high-end facilities, so I wanna make sure that parents have a good understanding of why manufacturing can be so exciting for their kids.
• 32:39
  Matthew Chang: as a career path
• 32:40
  Colin Russ: And, and fulfilling.
• 32:41
  Colin Russ: I feel like that's part of what, you know, people lack, is these aren't these dark, dingy, you know, dirt floor sparks flying everywhere, people getting hurt.
• 32:50
  Colin Russ: Like fact, it's, it's cool.
• 32:53
  Colin Russ: Like, like, and that's what I think a lot of people miss is factories that you're, the art of creation is something that brings a tremendous amount of fulfillment.
• 33:01
  Colin Russ: To people.
• 33:02
  Colin Russ: It's not all just, you know, theoretical, intellectual type work.
• 33:06
  Colin Russ: You're creating real tangible things and that's, you know, we, we've lost that value and, and importance of doing that.
• 33:15
  Colin Russ: Getting back to our beginning of the conversation on people just doing things.
• 33:20
  Brian Keith: Mom is envisioning a Model T assembly and the reality is that work was dreary and it was dangerous.
• 33:27
  Brian Keith: That's true.
• 33:29
  Brian Keith: But that Model T assembly line, it had the word factory.
• 33:32
  Brian Keith: But that's not the same thing as what Matt's talking about or what Colin's talking And that idea rests in our minds because we've seen countless videos about it.
• 33:42
  Brian Keith: We learned about it in school, the Model T assembly line.
• 33:44
  Brian Keith: That's just what we think about.
• 33:45
  Brian Keith: But no, the robots are running the semial line.
• 33:47
  Brian Keith: The humans are running the robots The humans are designing things, they're being creative, and that is something quite different from an assembly line that mom is seeing.
• 33:55
  Brian Keith: We have a comment here.
• 33:56
  Brian Keith: Uh, let you please pull that up onto Paul here says, uh, more technical deep dives.
• 34:01
  Brian Keith: Were accessible to a broader audience with all the Uh, come for the jokes, stay for the technical deep dives or the reverse one of those.
• 34:09
  Brian Keith: But, uh, I think it's gonna be
• 34:12
  Colin Russ: We will find the right balance.
• 34:13
  Brian Keith: a lot of.
• 34:14
  Brian Keith: We're trying to go.
• 34:15
  Brian Keith: We're trying to go sell people on the idea.
• 34:17
  Brian Keith: Everyone already agrees we should re industrialize.
• 34:19
  Brian Keith: That's not the idea.
• 34:20
  Brian Keith: We're trying to sell people on the idea that it can happen now, and how can it happen now, not in the forties or the fifties.
• 34:27
  Brian Keith: It can happen now.
• 34:28
  Brian Keith: And Matt shared some ideas today about.
• 34:31
  Brian Keith: Happening in your local area, like a factory needs to be local, not just one per nation.
• 34:36
  Brian Keith: And Colin shared some ideas about how do you go make it local so that things like your workers can actually find people to marry and have kids.
• 34:43
  Brian Keith: So some very specific ideas right there.
• 34:44
  Brian Keith: So reindustrialization can happen.
• 34:47
  Brian Keith: It can happen now and it can happen where you are.
• 34:49
  Brian Keith: And that's where you're gonna learn from this podcast and be able to take those ideas, take'em to your local businesses, take them inside your own factory, or the factory you're gonna start, take them to your local politicians and then go share some of these episodes and say, Hey, here's an idea about, you know, what if we did this here, listen to this cool thing.
• 35:05
  Brian Keith: What if we did that here?
• 35:06
  Brian Keith: What if we had those jobs here?
• 35:08
  Brian Keith: And maybe it's not a thousand person factory, maybe it's a 10 person factory.
• 35:12
  Brian Keith: Maybe we're gonna get away from that idea of the assembly line.
• 35:14
  Brian Keith: We see that the notes about, oh, you know, giga, Texas has a thousand workers for Elon built this huge new cyber truck factory.
• 35:22
  Brian Keith: That's cool.
• 35:23
  Brian Keith: We don't have to have that everywhere.
• 35:25
  Brian Keith: Actually.
• 35:26
  Brian Keith: You can have a 10 person or a hundred person factory that does something very interesting and very competitive, and that's where you're gonna learn about Paul on Anything to add to that, Matt?
• 35:35
  Matthew Chang: No, I mean, Paul's dialed in.
• 35:37
  Matthew Chang: I know, You know, Paul and I talk on Twitter.
• 35:39
  Matthew Chang: He is dialed in and I think he had a comment on, on, um, a little design case we did where we had a, you know, more than a 95% reduction in labor In a new factory, uh, design.
• 35:52
  Matthew Chang: So I agree with you, these factories are not gonna necessarily all be small, but there's not gonna be that many humans in there.
• 35:58
  Matthew Chang: because in the age of robotics, the robots are designed to do the work.
• 36:02
  Matthew Chang: The humans are designed to do the thinking and the running of the plant, and we're gonna let the robots see the heavy
• 36:09
  Colin Russ: And they don't all have to be humanoids.
• 36:13
  Brian Keith: topic for the next episode, episode number four, maybe about humanoid
• 36:17
  Colin Russ: I'm just gonna just throw a grenade in there and walk
• 36:19
  Brian Keith: in there, and walking Matt and calling into fist fight with the robots.
• 36:21
  Brian Keith: The little robot fighters
• 36:24
  Matthew Chang: Is now shadow.
• 36:25
  Matthew Chang: Appreciate that.
• 36:26
  Colin Russ: My bad.
• 36:28
  Brian Keith: Okay, definitely cut that part on post-production.
• 36:30
  Brian Keith: Yes.
• 36:32
  Brian Keith: Never get shadow banned until your fourth episode.
• 36:33
  Brian Keith: Colin, don't you know the rules?
• 36:35
  Colin Russ: am an amateur.
• 36:36
  Colin Russ: What can I say?
• 36:38
  Brian Keith: I'm excited about hiring optimists actually for my house and renting it out.
• 36:41
  Brian Keith: Uh, the legal issues are gonna be very interesting around liability, but of course I want to have a robot that makes money.
• 36:47
  Brian Keith: Of course, I wanna have a cyber truck that makes money while I'm sleeping.
• 36:50
  Brian Keith: Why would you want to have assets that are not performing instead of assets that are actively performing and.
• 36:57
  Brian Keith: That's the future we're going towards.
• 36:58
  Brian Keith: Except not just for things like me, like oh, my robot mowed my lawn, but things like, why don't I loan my optimist to Matt's local factory for third shift?
• 37:08
  Brian Keith: I'm not using It walks in the door, it works for eight hours, it comes home.
• 37:12
  Brian Keith: It just made me some money.
• 37:14
  Brian Keith: Okay, now we're un chatow band, right,
• 37:16
  Matthew Chang: There you go.
• 37:17
  Brian Keith: though that could actually happen.
• 37:18
  Brian Keith: We'll see.
• 37:19
  Colin Russ: I just, you know, at the end of the day, I think it requires people to stop for a second and really not just rethink how we're gonna be doing things, whether it's reindustrialization, reindustrialization, or the factory, but we have to rethink the entire premise behind them.
• 37:35
  Colin Russ: What is going to make the most sense, and how are we going to change how we do it to get, you know, better re results, do more with what we've got.
• 37:44
  Brian Keith: And we're gonna hop into that more on the next episode.
• 37:46
  Brian Keith: Thank y'all for being here.
• 37:47
  Brian Keith: We'll see you all then.
• 37:49
  Brian Keith: Take care.
• 37:54
  Thanks for tuning in to the Reforge Podcast.
• 37:57
  Make sure to like, subscribe and follow us on all of our social media at the Reforge Pod.
• 38:03
  We'll see you next time.