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Folklore's First Lie: The Changeling Myth · Living Loud and Proud: Disability Conversations

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Welcome to the Living Loud and Proud podcast,
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brought to you by Disability Pride Pennsylvania.
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If you need a link to the transcript for this
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episode, please visit our accessible website
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at www .disabilitypridepa .org slash podcast.
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And now, here is your host. Hey folks, welcome
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to the Living Loud and Proud podcast. I'm your
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host, Phil Rosen, here with my co -host, Ray
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Deco -Horton. Hello. And we're here at the bingo
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party for Disability Pride. Everybody say hi.
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Everyone say hi. They played bingo. Yeah, we
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all did. We all won. And in costumes. Very good
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juju. That was Vicky saying it was very good
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juju as people were playing bingo. And we're
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coming today with a little bit of a spooky sort
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of topic. It's all about changelings, the myth,
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the legend. Ray, you actually talked to me about
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this a little bit. You want to get started with
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just your thoughts? Who knows what was going
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on for like the last couple of months. Phil and
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I had been trying to figure out, you know, the
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different scary subjects. And I was telling them,
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we can do scary subjects all throughout the year
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and everything. But we eventually settled, like,
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maybe a month ago and said, hey, let's talk about
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changelings. And, you know, people are like,
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well, isn't this a disability -centric, you know,
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podcast? I was like, yes. And guess what we're
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going to reveal to you about how that, you know,
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the whole thing about changelings, you know,
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actually applies to that. And then we had some...
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like during the last week or so, and then we
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decided to talk about it with you people here
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and the audience out there in podcast land about
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changelings. Phil has done quite a bit of research
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on it. I've known quite a bit of stuff being
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a horror fanatic myself, if you know me. So we
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decided to basically put everybody else here
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at the Halloween party through our discussion
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about changelings. What is it about changeless
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that makes it something that could be a discussion
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had in a disabled -centric discussion, Phil?
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Well, so for a long time in the Middle Ages,
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there was this long story about children being
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taken either by demons or by fairies in the middle
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of the night or during the day. It doesn't really
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matter. And these were children that tended to
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act a little bit I don't know, strangely, for
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a lot of people. Because they were convinced
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they were replaced by some mystical being, whether
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it was another fairy or a goblin or a demon,
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you know. And these are what we call the changelings.
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But, okay, you guys heard what we said. What
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do you think was the real deal with changelings?
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Because we're not going to believe that there
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was such a thing as kids being replaced with
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demons. Or, you know, fairies or goblins or anything.
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What do you think these real human children actually
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had going on with them that would make somebody
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think that? Lamar. No. What were the kids being,
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you know, why were these people thinking these
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kids were being taken by? What was it about their
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behavior? Okay. Did you hear? She said they were
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autistic. And yes, through all the research that
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we've come across, a lot of these changeling
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legends directly, these kids were just autistic.
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But because they were different, they wanted
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to, you know, we're talking about medieval ages.
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And believe it or not, even as late as the early
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1900s, kids were being called changelings because
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they were different from the... so -called normal
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kids. Well, and remember, too, autism wasn't
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really a diagnosis until the mid -20th century
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anyway, so that would make sense that the early
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1900s would have that. What? Oh, Billard? Yeah.
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How many of you have seen movies where, like,
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there was a child who was replaced, you know,
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with... some other mystical being, you know,
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like I said, Goblin or anything like that. Like,
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okay, there's... Huh? Well, a movie. Yeah, where
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the kid was kidnapped and replaced with... Because
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there was the famous one that was called The
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Changeling. Back, what was that, late 70s or
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early 80s? Yeah. You know, but there's been tons
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of other ones. Nobody... Okay, once again, our
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buddy Lamar is determined to say that Jeffrey
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Dahmer might have been a changeling. I'm going
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to go with that. He might have been an actual
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real -life changeling and not somebody with autism.
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You know, it's been purported that they purported.
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Did I say purported? Could that ever be a real
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word? Anyway, purported that he actually was.
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But you know how it is with the gossip rags and
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everything. He could have been. And they downplayed
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it. Or he probably was, like I said, and they
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upplayed it. Probably wasn't and they upplayed
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it, you know. Well, Phil, like I said, you've
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read up on a few different situations. Is there
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one that you can think of right now that you'd
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share with everybody here? Well, you know, for
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whatever reason, my mind is blank. We could edit
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in later and pretend like we were still talking
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to everybody, but still try. Yes. Yes. Okay,
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basically the way it works out, and this has
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been going on since, what's the earliest myth
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of a changeling? The earliest I saw was like
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the 1500s, but I'm sure it was earlier than that.
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Yeah, because, you know, in a way you could almost
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say that the little wolf kids that roam and everything
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was named after could have been a variant of
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changelings. But basically what happened with...
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someone being called a changeling, the mythological
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aspect is that you have your child. And it's
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usually someone that's from newborn to I think
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the oldest changeling myth was maybe like 10
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or 11 years old. Your child disappears one night.
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Then your child reappears. And your child is
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different. And your child is not really your
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child, but a duplicate. That was originally a
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goblin. Or a demon. Or a fairy. And yeah. That's
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what a changeling is. And like I said. I'm shocked
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that none of you have. I mean I've seen a lot
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of horror movies. That was the plot. You know
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where the kid got taken. Technically. Damien
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from the Omen movies. There you go. It was. was
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a variant of a changeling. He was the ultimate
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changeling because he was the demon that was
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what? The son of? Yes. The devil. You know, I
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mean, some stories of the omen, the child was
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replaced. He was just straight up Christian,
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like Christ was born, you know, that it wasn't
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that he was stolen away, that he was actually,
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you know, the devil's child from Jump Street.
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Yeah, yeah, you know. But, like, if you read,
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like, a lot of the original texts and books,
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yeah, the child was born and then replaced with
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the son of Satan. You know what? Okay, the exorcist
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was all about possession. But here goes the funny
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thing. Even though we're talking about that,
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but also a lot of demon possessions, people blamed...
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Barry's Mental... That's a whole other podcast
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that we could do. But yeah, especially with children
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with autism, they were said to be possessed.
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And so, of course, what do you do? You go ahead
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and get some exorcist that's going to come through
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and probably physically damage your child by
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drilling holes in his head to get the demon out.
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When all it was is that he was just, he, she,
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they were autistic, you know. But yeah, that
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was a good, yes, it ties into that, you know.
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I mean, they often went hand in hand. Changeling's
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demon possession. And yeah, once again, disability,
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being different, and they just either want to
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stigmatize it or try and come up with some kind
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of excuse for it. you know, that wasn't always
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a good one. You know, why couldn't they have
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gone and been the son of God being, you know,
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I mean, why it always got to be the go -to of
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a demon, you know, or something nefarious. Yeah,
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yeah. But like I said, why does it always have
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to be a bad thing? You know, because like, what's
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one of the most, I mean, it's not always the
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case, but one of the things that made it cool
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to be autistic is the whole, you know, Rain man
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thing. And a lot of these kids show high aptitude
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in different things. We're not talking about
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this just, you know, happened. It's always been
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that way. So why couldn't that have been a blessing
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instead of a curse, you know? But no, if you're
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able to go on ahead and, you know, pull off amazing
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things because you're wired for it, it has to
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be the devil, not God. And the other thing that
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we should talk about with changelings too is
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it tended to be more developed societies, like
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more tribal societies tended to not have this
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sort of separation when it came to disabilities.
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There were definitely a little more supports.
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There's a lot more humanity that was put forth
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and honored. But in Western societies, there
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was kind of a very rigid way that you were supposed
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to act and speak and everything. And so, of course,
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people with autism maybe have a slightly different
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way of interfacing with the world. That could
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be a problem. part of where the changeling myth
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really came from. Right. Yeah. Yeah, you know
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what? Okay, I was trying to get everybody to
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tell me about a particular movie they might have
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seen that had the plot of a changeling in it.
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But oddly enough, even the hardcore horror watchers
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can't think of one right now, but I watched one
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called They Whisper. that came out in 2024, and
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it was about a husband and wife with their child.
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It stars Malcolm Gooding. Some of you, if you
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were fans of, like, iZombie, he was the main
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character's police partner and everything, and
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he's also on Reacher as the cop that helps Jack
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Reacher out a lot. Anyway, well, he plays the
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father, and like I said, he has the wife. Oh,
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I love Reacher. Who doesn't love Reacher? You
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know, he's trying to become Batman, too. He's
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really talking hard. Yeah, he's talking hard
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with James Gunn about being Batman. All right,
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but we got to get back on changelings. We'll
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have a Reacher show someday. We'll figure out
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how we can make that disability -centric. That's
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right. Changelings are also in the Wednesday
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TV show. Yeah, and technically, her main villain,
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the boyfriend, kind of is a changeling also.
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But he really was a changeling, you know. But
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yeah, this movie, They Whisper, it was so great.
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Very atmospheric. And like I said, now, once
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again, just like I said, you know how, you know,
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a disability, you know, like this story could
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have been true, like, at any era. Because what
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had happened was... Their son, Malcolm Gooden's
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son, he was playing with his friends, and they
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fell down a shaft or something, I think it was,
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that was like in a tree. Oh, that's another thing,
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too. They always seem to have changelings being
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found in trees, you know, like in the trunks
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or whatever. But this was some kind of shaft
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that he fell down, and he wound up in a coma.
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And when the boy finally came out of the coma,
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all this here weird, wicked stuff started happening,
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and then they started realizing, oh, my goodness,
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he's not really my child. And I can't remember
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if it was this same movie, but it was going on
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with other children, too, who had been replaced.
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But that might have been another movie that I
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saw that recently came out. Because, like I said,
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I'm shocked that the rest of you have not been
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seeing all these here crazy child -swapping movies
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that they've been having, like, the last few
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years. But, like one of our guests said, Zombies
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have been the end thing to watch lately. Anyway,
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and so, you know, having watched this movie,
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I'm not going to lie. I sat there and I thought,
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so the kid comes out of a coma different. But,
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you know, what made it the horror movie and what
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made it really this way is, yeah, it really was
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that kind of case. But I could see how so many
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people thought this because synchronicity is
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a strong thing. That's another podcast that will
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happen another time. So weird things happen around
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a child who just came out of a coma. How many
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people come out of comas and they're not the
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same? There's all kinds of things that can happen,
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either traumatic brain injury or, yeah, something
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changed. How many of you have seen those documentaries
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about people who come out of a coma and wind
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up knowing a totally different language that
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they never studied? You know, or being aware
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of different things. So, yeah, I kind of, not
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kind of, I definitely could see how, like, you
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know, unsophisticated minds back then could look
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at, you know, someone, especially a child, who
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has just come out of a coma and is totally different
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from the way they were prior. And they're not
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going to want to think about, you know, they
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had some kind of traumatic. brain injury or it's
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like they say brain damage you know because they
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just don't want to think that because it's reflective
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of them you know i could have prevented this
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if i had been a better parent you know some of
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them that is true some of them you can't i'm
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sorry you can't stop faith you know but once
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again because of how they were after they came
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out of the coma oh my goodness They must have
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been replaced by a goblin, a fairy, a demon,
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or, like my girl over here pointed out, possessed.
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You know, so let's call the exorcists here, too,
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you know. But, yeah, that movie, I recommend.
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It was a really good watch. You know, it's called
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They Whispered. It came out in 2024. No, I didn't
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see that. The reading? It's on Netflix. It's
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a two -year -old game. I missed that one. I mean,
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I knew there was a couple of thriller -type films
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that she was in. Yeah, she, you know, everyday
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regular, but then at night she changed and she
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messed around and killed her kids. And I believe
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their dad, because the dad came over to the house
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to check on them. And then she had someone come
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over and try to do one of those readings on her
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to see, you know, why was she supposedly dealing
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with all of this hurt and pain, this fate, and
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the whole time it was her. So while the young
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girl was, you know, Doing her little thing with
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that palm and all of that stuff with her. She
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changed into a different person. Right in front
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of them. And once again, in real life, with cases
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that actually went like this, you know, because
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I watch a lot of true crime also when I get tired
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of watching all those terrible, terrible, hey,
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do you have a camera? Let's make a movie. and
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other free streamers show, you know, there should
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be a law against it. But anyway, I watch a lot
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of true crime. And yeah, that same situation
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that she's talking about, which was the plot
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of the reading, has happened so many times. And
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either A, you know, the podcasters or whoever,
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you know, talk about they might have been possessed
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or they might have been switched out, you know.
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Because it seems like it was more, you know,
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fantastic way to go with, you know, telling their
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true crime story. But in the end, we just had
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somebody that was ill -equipped for to handle
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the pressures that, you know, parenting and other
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things or social interaction, you know. Well,
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I don't even have to finish that. You know what
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I mean. But, yeah. Phil? Yeah, well, we were
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kind of talking about... possession and all that.
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When we were talking about the changelings, I
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was thinking about Hereditary, the movie with
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the demon Pazuzu or whatever. By the way, big
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hit, Heredity. It's already reaching cult status.
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It's only like two or three years old. I think
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it's a little bit older than that. Oh, four or
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five? I think it came out in 2018, I think. Something
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like that. So, seven years now. Oh, so you did
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see Heretic. Okay. Yeah. But, yeah, anyways,
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the, you know, I kind of see that movie as a
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bit of an allegory for, like, you know, mental
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health, mental illness kind of being something
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that's inescapable in families. Like, it might
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jump generations or whatever. But, eventually,
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people will start exhibiting some of the same
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symptoms over and over again. So, which is another
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disability -related topic. No, keep talking.
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You know, do any other movies come to mind to
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anyone? Just like similarly? Well, you know what's
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kind of funny? I was just thinking about when
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Dana brought up the reading, which, yeah, like
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I said, that kind of goes into it. because technically
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it's a situation that would happen, same thing
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with the changing. But since we've been talking,
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has anybody else thought about, you know, like,
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oh, wow, wait a second, now that I think about
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it, I have seen a movie where I've seen the child
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or somebody else get swapped out. Like, how many
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of those different ones where the parents get
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swapped out, you know, and the kids, you know,
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have to try and save the day? There's been quite
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a few of those made since, like, oh, my God,
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the 60s? I think it was the first one I've seen
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with that kind of plot. You guys aren't going
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to believe this, but guess what? The Evil Dead
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films, okay, one of the things that Sam Raimi
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talked about that influenced him was observing
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those kind of behaviors from people that were
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alleged to be possessed or changelings or something
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like that. And, you know, so we'll say that they
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were like, you know, the real life inspiration
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was like, at one, but Sam Raimi said, let me
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amp this up to a thousand, and there's no exaggeration
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using those numbers, okay, to create my deadites,
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as his, you know, things are called, you know,
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demons and all that. But yeah, once again, yeah.
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So, you know what? Actually, come to think of
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it, this here stigma that was put on, you know,
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people, you know, who had these disabilities.
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really has, like, revolutionized pop culture,
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modern pop culture when we stop to think about
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it. You know, because, like, I mean, the Evil
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Dead franchise is like, whoa, whoa, you know,
24:34
and everything. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know,
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I know all about the whole Annabelle thing, you
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know. We'll talk about that some other day because
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that could actually be an interesting podcast
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talking about psychological influences, you know,
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because a lot of stuff that revolves around the
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real life Annabelle thing really did happen,
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you know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I'm
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not going to admit or not admit. Like I said,
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for those of you who actually know me well enough,
25:51
With the weird things I've said or seen or done.
25:54
But, yeah, I will, yes, no, I will not dispute
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that with you, but I'm not going to say I'm necessarily
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cosigning with you. Just know you'll never have
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me judge you on that one. That's where we're
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going to leave it at. Yeah, that's the witching
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hour. I wake up at that time all the time. Vicky
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loves it. And I used to watch JWTV. And so some
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guys said the same exact thing. Only two days
27:02
later, I met Chuck. He said the same exact thing.
27:07
He was younger. He was older than me. I was in
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the 70s. And when he was laying down, it felt
27:11
like something was grabbing him. And he said,
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he was crying. He said that. And it felt like,
27:16
like, you know. Yeah. Yeah, me and Crowley used
27:36
to hang out back in the day. Real smelly guy.
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I say it jokingly, and I really did say it jokingly.
27:47
Me and Al did not hang. I was joking. Well, I'm
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talking like I'm a little bit too familiar with
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them, though. All right, scratch that. Did you
27:57
ever see John Todd? No. Right. Well, we're kind
28:27
of sticking right now. That's all very fascinating
28:30
because, believe it or not, there's something
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regarding that witching hour, you know, the 3
28:38
o 'clock hour, the 2 .30, 3 o 'clock hour, that
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can possibly be explained scientifically. It's
28:46
actually a deficiency, I believe, of zinc that
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causes people to wake up. at that particular
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time. But that's a whole other fascinating and
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it's still being investigated. You know, I actually
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came across because I had that problem also.
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And I was really starting to worry. But we will
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definitely come back to that. But has anybody
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else thought about something since then? No?
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Well. Okay, we're going to close out the podcast.
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Does anybody want to say a big old group? Bye
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-bye. Happy Halloween and all that other stuff.
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Bye. All right. Thanks, everyone. All right.
29:35
Well, thanks, everyone, for listening in. This
29:37
is Phil Rosen signing off. And Ray. Oh, yeah.
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All right. Bye. Holla. Like you know me. Whatever.
29:46
All right. Love you. Bye -bye. All right. Till
29:49
the next time. Please visit our accessible website
29:52
at www .disabilitypridepa .org. You can find
29:58
us on social media at Disability Pride PA on
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