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Echoes of September 15th · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hi everybody, welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: My name is Tim Hannon, and with me as always is Steve Wirt.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: And on this episode! Unfortunately, unlike Doc and Marty, we aren't going to be able to change that event, but we will do a bit of a thesis to understand what happened.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: A thesis.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: Do it to present this in front of a board or something.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: And if that doesn't make everybody just click off instantly to this episode, I don't know what will.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: Defend our thesis.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: So here we are.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: We're in the spring of 2026.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers have just been hammered out of the first round of the playoffs again.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: We haven't won a postseason game now for a full decade.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Mike Tomlin is gone, and most of the fan base appears to be unhappy over who they chose as his replacement.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: And yet again, we have no clue who is going to play quarterback.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: And we're not accustomed to this here in Pittsburgh, right?
1:23
SPEAKER_00: This isn't Cleveland or the Jets.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: This is a proud franchise who always has their act together.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: So how in the world did we get to this point?
1:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think I think people are offering explanations that don't do anything other than like hate on Mike Tomlin.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, oh, well, we got here because Tomlin's a bad coach.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, bad coaches don't win 60% of their games and make the playoffs every year.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, we got here because Tomlin can't evaluate talent.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: He only had good teams with players he inherited.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Again, not true.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers drafted a plethora of all pro all pro players during Tomlin's tenure.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, then Tim, so Tomlin doesn't deserve any blame.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Why don't you just marry Tomlin?
2:06
SPEAKER_00: Definitely not saying that.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: He's already married, sorry.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: I will say this about the talent evaluation.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: I think it dropped off.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: But but I agree with you.
2:17
SPEAKER_02: Early on, I don't think it was bad.
2:19
SPEAKER_02: It was it was bad in a different way.
2:21
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't bad on the talent evaluation.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: It was bad on the character evaluation.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: That's fair.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: That's a fair point.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: And and and again, I'm I'm not saying that Tomlin doesn't deserve blame.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think as we go through this, you'll see he he definitely deserves a lot of the blame.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: I just really wanted to parse this a little deeper rather than just like the social media, you know, oh, the coach is the problem kind of thing.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, life is never that simple, is it, Tim?
2:47
SPEAKER_02: Like if we could just fix that one problem, you know, with what the lane says, we might just be a few tweaks, it might be more than just a tweak away from a successful football team here.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's that's uh you're spot on, Steve.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: And that's what we tend to do as a culture on every problem, not just sports related, uh, is we try to dumb it down to one thing.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh however, I do think in this case, you can't dumb it down to one reason, but I think you can trace it all back to one event that happened on September 15th, 2019.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: Can we soup up your, I don't know what car?
3:24
SPEAKER_02: I drive a Mazda 3.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: Can we put a like Mr.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: Fusion in the Mazda 3 and hit 88 miles per hour and see some serious you know what and go back in time?
3:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not not unless you can get a flux capacitor.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Knock that up.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's what makes time travel possible, Tim.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: It is.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: And and and you know, again, like the arrest of Marty McFly Jr., that's an event that does start a chain reaction that destroys the Steelers for the immediate future.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, Tim.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna have to talk to my dad.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: Wrong answer, McFly.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh before we get to that event, let's consider where the Steelers are as a franchise as of 2019.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: And here's a little brief history of the Pittsburgh Steelers in the post-merger NFL.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: And Steve, see if you see some patterns here.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: In the 1970s, the Steelers build a great team that wins four Super Bowls.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: A lot of those stars age out and they have to spend a few years rebuilding, quite a few years, in fact, before they get it right.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: But then in the 1990s, they're back and they're contenders again.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: No Super Bowl wins this time, but definitely one of the NFL's elite franchises.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: Then a lot of those stars either age out or are lost in free agency.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: We talked about that in our Tom Donahoe episode, and they have to spend a few years rebuilding.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: But then in the 2000s, they're back and they're contenders again.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: This time they make it to three Super Bowls and win two of them.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Then a lot of those stars age out and they have to spend a few years rebuilding.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: But then in the 2010s, guess what, Steve?
4:54
SPEAKER_00: They're back and they're contenders again.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: Like the 90s, no Super Bowl wins this time, but definitely one of the NFL's elite teams.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: They also at that time maybe have the most exciting offense in team history led by quarterback Ben Rothesberger and a host of other talent.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: By the time we hit 2019, that window has closed, just like it did in all the other decades.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: This time the reasons are a little different.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Guys are aging out again.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh, two Hall of Fame caliber players who had anchored the offensive line, Marquise Pouncey and David DeCastro, are both nearing the end of their careers.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Ryan Shazier, the guy that was kind of the glue of the defense, had suffered a horrific career in an injury.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: And of course, there was the implosion of two of the superstars of that explosive offense.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Steve mentioned the character issues.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Running back Le'Veon Bell, who had held out for the entire 2018 season and had left for New York, and wide receiver Antonio Brown, who had completely lost his mind, and he was also no longer a stealer, in addition to no longer being a raider or a patriot that fall.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: So, Steve, is there a pattern here?
5:59
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers are an elite team, the window closes, they spend some time rebuilding, and then the cycle starts over again, right?
6:07
SPEAKER_02: Uh, if you make the right moves, I mean, yes.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: And they always had.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: Right?
6:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is literally every time the 70s and 80s turned into the 90s, that turns into the 2000s, that turns into the 2010s.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: And can I ask a question?
6:21
SPEAKER_02: What year did Dan Rooney stop running the team?
6:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh that's debatable because he hands over control of the team, I want to say in like 2003, 2004, but he is alive until 2017.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: And when's the last time they want to?
6:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: That's a big part of this.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's the problem.
6:46
SPEAKER_02: There's your problem right there.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I don't disagree.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: So, so let's go through what happens here.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: In 2019, we're in the we have to spend a few years rebuilding phase.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: This time, there is a variable, and it's Ben Rothesberger.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: He's 37 years old at this point.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: He's nearing the end of his career.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: He's even talked openly about retiring.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: And the Steelers make what I think is kind of a smart move.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: They extend Ben through 2021.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: And of course, no one, probably even him, knows if he'll play that long.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: But it gives them a little bit of buffer space to rebuild the roster while not being completely stuck with nothing at the most important position in football.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: So with a couple of years to address the QB situation, the Steelers in 2019 instead focus on building up the defense, which at this point was in shambles.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Remember where the defense was around this time?
7:41
SPEAKER_00: This was after the Jacksonville playoff game where they had given up 45 points.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they couldn't stop like a power running team.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: They they had like gone the other way like most of the NFL to try and stop the pass, and they'd become susceptible to the run.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: And and the Chazier injury.
7:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, that set them back a couple years.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: So so in 2019, they're focused on rebuilding that.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: They uh make free agent signings of quarterback Steven Nelson, linebacker Mark Barron.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: They also trade a ton of draft capital to move up to select linebacker Devin Bush.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: They add that to the previous draft capital they had spent on guys like TJ Watt and Terrell Edmonds, and then after the season begins, they trade even more draft capital, a number one pick for the next year, to get safety Minka Fitzpatrick.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: And the result ends up being pretty good.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: They go from the 17th ranked defense in 2018 to the sixth ranked defense in 2019.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, that's not a bad strategy.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: I think we've seen from our friends in Cincinnati that even if you have a franchise quarterback, if you don't build up a competent defense around him, then it's kind of pointless.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: Also, and I cannot stress this enough as we go through this.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: This is the playbook they followed during those other rebuilds.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Look at all the guys who were there before they drafted Ben Rothesperger, Troy Polomalo, Joey Porter, Ike Taylor, Aaron Smith, James Farrier, Casey Hampton.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: All those guys were in place before they went out and got the franchise quarterback.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: Same deal with the 90s.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Before Neil O'Donnell or Cordell Stewart, there was Rod Woodson and Greg Lloyd and Carnell Lake.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: Heck, Joe Green came before Terry Bradcall or Franco Harris, right?
9:26
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's the plan, the playbook.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: Now, we know Devin Bush and Thoreau Edmonds didn't quite work out, but that's okay.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: Devin Bush did score a touchdown last year for the Black.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he actually Devin Bush actually resurrected his career pretty nicely in Cleveland.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: He's not like a pro bowler, but he's a decent player.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: And the same with Thoreau Edmonds.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Thoreau Edmonds wasn't terrible.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: These weren't like total misses.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, when they were running this playbook pre-Ben, you know, they drafted guys like Alonzo Jackson and Ricardo Coakley who didn't work out either.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: You're not going to hit on everybody.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: The point here is that there's a proven path forward.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: Everybody talks about the stealer way.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: This is it.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Lay a foundation for a future quarterback during 2019 by building up the defense or building up the offensive line, building up some of those like base positions, and then maybe go draft your future quarterback in 2020 or 2021 as Ben is winding down his storied career.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: It's a tried and true plan.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: And at this point, Steve, they're executing it well.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: So that brings us to the fateful date of this episode, September 15th, 2019.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: That day, the Steelers are playing their home opener against the Seattle Seahawks at Heinz Field.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers defense is having a little bit of trouble against some guys named Russell Wilson and DK Metcalfe.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: I don't think we'll ever see them playing for the Steelers.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll probably never see them again do anything, do anything much.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: But the game is tied in the second quarter, and the Steelers are trying to drive for a field goal as we get close to halftime.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Rothesberger at this point in his career has a chronically sore right elbow.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: And it's feeling sore again in this game, but he said, whatever, that's normal.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: He just always played through it.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, here in the second quarter of this game against Seattle, Ben throws a deep pass to Juju Smith Schuster, and he says that he feels a shooting pain down his arm.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers kick a field goal, the teams go into the locker room for halftime.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: And to the shock of I think everyone who was there that day, including me, Mason Rudolph comes out to play quarterback in the second half.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: So what happened to Ben?
11:40
SPEAKER_00: Is he going to be okay?
11:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, sure enough, the injury is catastrophic.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Ben tears three of the five flexor tendons in his right elbow completely off the bone.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: He's out for the season.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: It's it's shocking.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: I still remember Steve, the tribune review having what amounted to like the war declaration headline font on its front page.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's super eerie too, because the same injury, essentially, that ended Terry Bradtoff's career, his throwing elbow.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's devastating for Ben professionally and personally.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: And here's something people might not remember, uh, especially now that it's kind of like universally known that Antonio Brown struggles with some very serious mental health issues.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: But in 2019, a lot of people blamed Ben for A B's departure.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Do you remember that?
12:34
SPEAKER_02: Uh I th I don't remember.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: I remember like I thought the story was A B threw the ball at Ben in practice, and they're like, Ben was like, you gotta get him out of here.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: Is that is that the story we're thinking of?
12:45
SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, well, there's there's a couple of things.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: First of all, the NFL network comes out with this story that Ben kicked A B out of practice.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, what what's the truth to that?
12:56
SPEAKER_00: Who started it?
12:57
SPEAKER_00: All that kind of stuff.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, Stephen A.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Smith, guys like that came out to say Ben is to blame.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: Josh Harris, remember him, this absolute clown of a running back who played for the Steelers for literally five games.
13:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that guy.
13:11
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Said Ben once fumbled on purpose to get revenge on Todd Haley for a play call he didn't like.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: And and even though that guy had zero credibility, like everybody still ran with that story because, you know, clicks and well, too, like Ben's an easy target because of his reputation from earlier in his career.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's fair.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: People just did did not like Ben.
13:35
SPEAKER_02: They still don't.
13:36
SPEAKER_02: They never don't.
13:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's never gonna repair that.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: It is what it is.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: That the the off-season leading up to that 2019 season was rough.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Ashley Rothisberger, Ben's wife, says that that off-season was one of the most challenging times of their marriage.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: She says, quote, I understand criticism, it's part of the job, I get that, but this was different.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: So, what's the best way to move on from that?
14:01
SPEAKER_00: It's to go out and have a successful 2019 season, which I think Ben would have had, because the Steelers amazingly stacked eight wins that season behind Mason Rudolph and Doc Hodges.
14:13
SPEAKER_02: Hey, don't doubt the duck, man.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, that game in San Diego was unreal.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: Was that the same year San Diego season?
14:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was unreal.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but that was that was really thanks in large part to that rebuilt defense we talked about.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: That game against the Chargers.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: I think Bush got a interception or fumble recovery, the huge play in that game.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: And if we win eight games with Duck Hodges, then we probably win at least ten with Ben.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: We get to the playoffs, and then he gets another shot at making a run.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: And maybe at the end of that, maybe he decides to call it a career, and maybe he decides he'll do one or two more years.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: But it but I feel like at least there's some sense of closure there, Steve.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, like imagine just just again the context of this.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, he goes through that entire offseason with all these media people and these former teammates who played for for the Steelers for you know five games, coming out and saying he's a bad teammate and he's driving away the superstars.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: And if if he could come back and have a successful season, then all that stuff kind of gets forgotten.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: But if he comes when he comes back and gets hurt in the home opener, that that changes everything.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: Well it didn't help.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: Well, too, like you said, like Stephen A and they they I don't know.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: They say stuff just to say stuff, and I a lot of their viewpoints are like not sports, not rooted in sports.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: Like I think sometimes they try and like I hate to say it, like race bait, and so I think there's some of that going on.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: And like I said, Ben's an easy target.
15:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:51
SPEAKER_02: Like you know.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, and that's just a terrible um way to to potentially end your career.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: So the big question going into the 2020 offseason is is Ben gonna come back?
16:06
SPEAKER_00: The answer is yes, and there's a lot of pomp and circumstance around that.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: There's a whole YouTube series probably still out there you can watch on him and his wife making the difficult decision for him to come back, him having to do all this like really challenging rehab in the middle of COVID.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: It's a great story that we all loved at the time because we get to heat see our hero play again.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: But now, Steve, the Steelers are at a fork in the road.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: And there's going to be a couple of these forks in the road as we go through this.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: They have two choices.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Path number one, continue on the rebuild plan.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: Use your high draft capital or free agent resources on continuing to build up the defense or the offensive line or any of those other base pieces we talked about.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: Plus, also look at using said capital to maybe get a quarterback of the future, given that, you know, Ben just tore up his elbow and maybe only has a season or two left in him.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: And if you look at what other successful teams were doing around this time, the Chiefs drafted Patrick Mahomes while they were still winning a lot of games with Alex Smith.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: Alex Smith, yeah.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: The Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson while they were still winning a lot of games with Joe Flacco.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: The Packers drafted Jordan Love while they were still winning a lot of games with Aaron Rodgers.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: Whatever gonna happen to that guy.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: Him, Russell Wilson, DK Metcalf, we'll never see those guys.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: A little bit of setup here for later.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: That'd have been a great team in what what year was that?
17:36
SPEAKER_02: 2019.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: 2020, yeah.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh I think it would have been very easy for the Steelers to do the same thing as those teams were doing had Ben not been injured.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: But if you do that now, you're saying to a franchise legend, hey, thanks for sacrificing so much to come back.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: That's really much appreciated.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: But we're still planning for the next few years after you eventually leave.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Would that have caused hurt feelings?
18:02
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Would that have upset some fans at the time?
18:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: But I think it would have been the right thing to do.
18:09
SPEAKER_02: Who cares?
18:10
SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: You know.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: Ben will get over it.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: Or he won't.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: I guess maybe after he treated Mason Rudolph so bad, they just didn't want to go through that again.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: It it's it's hard.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: That's a hard thing to do in sports.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you have to you want to honor the guys that played for you for years and years.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: And I have a tough time believing that it isn't there wasn't something between him and Mason Rudolph because ever since Ben lived, Mason Rudolph, like I've never heard anybody else complain about.
18:41
SPEAKER_02: So maybe Ben isn't the greatest of teammates.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: I doubt he fumbled.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: Ben did not fumble on purpose.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: No.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: No, that was silly.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: So so instead the Steelers choose path number two, which is to use that draft and free agent capital on things that'll help Ben win before he retires, and that ultimately leads to disaster.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: And I one thing I do want to be 100% clear on before we go any further, I'm not blaming Ben for coming back.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: Ben did the right thing for him, he didn't want his career to end on an injury.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: So good.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but the Steelers have to do what's right for their organization too.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes, you know, both aren't the same thing.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: But 100% correct.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: I I honestly I don't know.
19:27
SPEAKER_02: I think Art wanted to win a Super Bowl for himself.
19:30
SPEAKER_02: I just the longer I think about this, the more I see the moves that have been made in these last couple years.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: I think Art wanted a Super Bowl for himself.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: I could have played into it too.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: From underneath his father's shadow.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's a that's a great question to ask and a fair point.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: Because in the recent um, what's it called, uh, press conference when they said, well, why don't you just hire somebody and build?
19:53
SPEAKER_02: He said, Well, I don't want to waste a year of my life, you know, not competing.
19:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:58
SPEAKER_02: That was an interesting quote, I thought.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but but I but I think again, if you look at we'll keep going back to the way we've always done this in the past.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers have have executed the same playbook over and over and over.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't think they've ever really wasted a ton of years.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Even when they were bad, they were you know kind of middle of the year.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: They never got to like, well, one that one 2,000 before they drafted Ben, how many wins do they have like that?
20:22
SPEAKER_00: That was a six-win season.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: That was probably the worst it ever got, though.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because most times, like with Tomlin's uh always able to get them to eight wins, which is kind of a blessing and a curse at the same time.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: But and even six wins, Steve, that's not like you know.
20:36
SPEAKER_02: No, that's not two or three, right?
20:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: So so so everybody's like, oh, just you know, stink and get a high draft pick.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: We never needed to do that before, and we didn't need to.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: It's tough to rebuild from that.
20:48
SPEAKER_02: Like it's like people think like sometimes you don't come back from that.
20:53
SPEAKER_02: You don't understand, like, yeah.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Again, the the the like we said at the beginning, you know, 70s and 80s into the 90s, into the 2000s, 2010s.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: This is this is this is we've been able to come back from all this before.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: This time it's different because now Ben's here.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: So in the 2020 NFL draft, the Steelers' first pick is the 49th overall.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Available at that spot are two cornerbacks, Jalen Johnson from Utah and Trayvon Diggs from Alabama.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: Both of those guys will become all pros in the NFL, and both would figure really nicely into this foundational rebuild the team had started the year before.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Also available is a quarterback from Oklahoma by the name of Galen Hurts.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: Hurts had started his career at Alabama, but as a sophomore, he lost his job to Tua Takalayola.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: He eventually transfers to Oklahoma and he does really well there.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: He seems like a guy who maybe with a season or two of grooming could be a quality NFL quarterback, and he's right there for the Steelers to take.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: Quarterback of the future, all lined up, he can.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Sit behind Ben and learn, won't be rushed in.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: It's a perfect scenario.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: But Ben would treat him like crap and be all mad and blah blah blah.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, and and even if Ben wasn't mad, it it it drafting a backup quarterback or even one of those defensive backs really doesn't help number seven, the guy who again like heroically sacrificed and worked to come back, right?
22:26
SPEAKER_00: So so whether whether or not he would have been like mopey or not, it it just doesn't help Ben.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: So instead, uh they use that draft pick to select a guy who will help them, a wide receiver from Notre Dame named Chase Claypool.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: He's a big target.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: That's something that Ben had never really had in his career, but he always wanted.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: He's flashy, he's got some character red flags, but he's very talented.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: I would say not as bad as the other people.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: No.
22:56
SPEAKER_02: In in the character red flag circus, it's yeah, not that bad.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: Uh the Steelers marquee free agent signing that offseason, Steve.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: Do you remember who that was?
23:08
SPEAKER_02: I don't remember.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: It's tight end Eric Ebron, who signed to a two-year$12 million contract.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Could they have picked up like a solid guard or a defensive lineman for the same price?
23:19
SPEAKER_02: Nah, Eric Ebron.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: That's the way to go.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, and again, it it's less about who they signed.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: It's it's more about what they signed.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
23:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's let's get a uh another weapon for Ben rather than like a foundational piece that we can use to rebuild, like we were doing in all those other rebuilds in the past.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: So I would say now the rebuild playbook is completely out the window, and the Steelers have just missed a really golden opportunity to get their quarterback of the future, or like I said, at least some more foundational pieces.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: And at first, it looks like they made the right call because they win their first 11 games of the 2020 season.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Also, Claypool's a stud during that 11-game winning streak.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: He has eight touchdowns, which is unheard of for a rookie.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: And Eric Ebron pays off too.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: He's targeted 91 times, which is a lot for a tight end, and he has five touchdowns.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: I don't remember Eric Ebron that fondly.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: I he had a good stretch there.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, it they don't, Steve, they don't win their first 11 games of that season if they draft Galen Hurts or one of those quarterbacks, or if they sign a free agent guard.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: They just don't.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: So maybe they did the right thing going all in on Ben's comeback rather than laying a foundation for the future, right?
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Because they're 11-0, right, Steve?
24:42
SPEAKER_02: Well see, that was a weird season.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: And you're gonna say it was because of the free agent signing.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't think the reason they fell apart late in that season is because of the free agent signings.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: It's because the way the NFL they were an older veteran team by that point, and they needed like a consistent week-to-week schedule, not playing on Wednesdays at three o'clock.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: So the Ravens didn't have to start their third string quarterback.
25:13
SPEAKER_02: The league like placated the Ravens and the the teams that they like because of Ben, once again.
25:20
SPEAKER_02: Because they don't like Ben because nobody likes Ben because of all the other stuff.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: And I just this was just like part and parcel.
25:27
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like being the Raiders.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: Like the league doesn't didn't like the Raiders all those years because of Al Davis and all the trouble he caused all the owners.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of the same situation the Steelers found themselves in when you have a player that's very polarizing.
25:43
SPEAKER_02: And that's just it, they really got screwed by the NFL because of the COVID and all that other stuff, and they had to play a lot of games in a hurry.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: And I thought Ben wore down late in the season.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not gonna sit here and I hated that whole season.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: People like, oh, what a bunch of Mickey Mouse wins, this and that, and blah, blah, blah.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: And you win a game, you win a game.
26:06
SPEAKER_02: I I don't know what to tell you.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: I can go through the Patriots undefeated season and say, well, that's a Mickey Mouse win, that's a Mickey Mouse win.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: I I I hate when people do that.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: And I just I will not stand for this slander to have.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, and and I no, I'm I'm not saying that they that they take that they fell apart at the end because of Case Clape or Eric Ebron.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh what I'm saying is they fell apart at the end for probably the reasons you gave are fine.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: It it to me it it the point is It didn't build for the future.
26:37
SPEAKER_02: They definitely went all in this year.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: And if you do that one year and then go back to the rebuild the next year, maybe it wouldn't be an issue.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: The problem is they just kept repeating this playbook and they haven't stopped.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: I I haven't seen that they've stopped doing this as of 2026.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: That that's exactly right.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: So so to recap in case you don't remember, the Steelers lose four out of their final five regular season games and they get boat raced out of the playoffs by Cleveland.
27:06
SPEAKER_02: That's probably one of the worst losses in team history.
27:09
SPEAKER_02: That they, you know.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: That was a bad one.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: So so heading into 2021 to Steve's point, okay, fine.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: You you kind of went all in on because it was Ben's comeback season, but now another fork in the road.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: Is it time to go back to the rebuilding playbook?
27:25
SPEAKER_02: Well, with that older team, you probably should have, maybe in hindsight's 2020.
27:30
SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: Because I just felt like if they play a normal season, this team's competitive, I think they can make a run.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, regardless, the Sears doubled down on giving Ben fantasy football weapons.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: In the first round of the 2021 draft, they take a running back from Alabama named Najee Harris.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: It's a guy who had won two national championships, won the Dokwalker Award at 30 touchdowns in a senior season.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: And and really, most importantly, again, it's more about the what than the who.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: It's a guy who could come in and start right away and be a weapon for Ben.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: And he wasn't terrible, but he wasn't gr I I don't uh running back in the first round anymore.
28:13
SPEAKER_02: You probably got to got the guy with similar production in the third round, quite honestly.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it again, to me, this is the it is about the who, but it's much more about the what.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Like if the Steelers this whole time would have drafted, say they wouldn't have drafted Jalen Hurts, say they would have drafted some other, you know, college quarterback in the second round and that didn't work out, and they would have drafted, you know, a defensive tackle and that wouldn't have worked out.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of what happened, you know, for a while for Chuck Noel in the 80s, where they were trying to rebuild the right way, but they just weren't getting the right people until they finally did at the end of the 80s.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: But but this time they're just not even going for the right people.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: They take Najee Harris in the first round, and the second round, they divert even further from the playbook.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: And and you know, we we talked about the playbook being, you know, built up like key pieces.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: One position we didn't talk about is center.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: Steve, when they're building the 1970s team, who do they draft at center?
29:11
SPEAKER_02: Mike Webster eventually.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Hall of Famer, Mike Webster.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: When they're when they're rebuilding in the late 80s, early 90s.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Dermonty Dawson, Marquise Pouncey, after well, they had Hardings in there who they had signed, who had had some good years.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: And when they're rebuilding in the 2000s, they don't draft a center, but they sign Jeff Hardings as a free agent.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: He's not a Hall of Famer, but he does make multiple Pro Bowls.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: And then, like you said, when they're rebuilding in the 2010s, they draft another probable Hall of Famer in Marquise Pouncey at center.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: So if Ben never gets hurt and they're following the same playbook, Steve, guess who's there for them in the second round of the 2021 draft?
29:48
SPEAKER_00: It's Creed Humphrey.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: The guy from yeah.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, who the guy who becomes the best center in football and who's probably on his way to the Hall of Fame.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: But instead, the Steelers take a tight end from Penn State named Pat Firemouth.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: And look, I I really like Pat Firemouth.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Heck, I like him even more than the Steelers do, considering they barely use him.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: But again, it's more about the the what than the who.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: It's the wrong pick.
30:14
unknown: Yeah.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: And you can see what the Steelers are trying to do here, Steve.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: Like the high-powered offense that Ben that Ben ran in the 2010s.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: They're trying to rebuild that.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: Because what did what did they have?
30:25
SPEAKER_00: They had a stud running back in Le'Veon Bell, they had a stud receiver in A B, they had a stud tight end in Heath Miller.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: So now you've got Harris, Claypool, and Firemouth as your new Bell, Brown, and Heath.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: So Ben's got all his weapons back, right?
30:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: Never mind the fact that, you know, he has no one to snap him the ball, but that's okay, Steve, because the Steelers have a solution for that.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: They're going to take a guard named Kendrick Green in the third round and tell him he's going to play center.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: And that's a disaster of epic proportions.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: Even Ben's still better over that one.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: But again, the Steelers valued immediate weapons over future foundational pieces.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: That seems to be a reasonable evaluation of what's going on.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because Kendrick Green was like, he's like a mediocre guard with the Texans, or he might be on like another team by now or out of the league.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was only a third-round pick, but it killed him.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Like all these draft, like you can't you just can't miss on this many first rounders.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: You just can't.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: And again, it's the positions.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: It's it's you're not drafting a center or a quarterback or a or a defensive back.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: You're drafting, again, like fantasy football players, wide receivers, and tight ends and running backs.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: That's that's not the way.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: Again, you go back to all those rebuilds that we talked about before.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: That's not the way that they did this in the past.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: So in 2021, the Steelers are very mediocre.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: They squeeze into the playoffs, they're once again boat raced out of the playoffs, this time by the Kansas City Chiefs.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of that campaign, Ben does officially call it a career.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: So now what?
32:04
SPEAKER_00: Ben is gone, and unlike the Chiefs and the Ravens and the Packers, who all had their future guys in place learning behind the veterans, the Steelers have nothing.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: To make matters worse, the 2022 draft is late on quarterbacks.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: So once again, we're at a fork in the road moment.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: Do the Steelers force a quarterback, or do they go back to the playbook of building a foundation while they wait on a future quarterback?
32:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, they opt to draft Pitt quarterback Kenny Pickett.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: And to be fair, you know, Kenny had a really good resume.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: Like every year at Pitt, he got better.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: And then in his senior season, he did something that all of us who have been long-suffering Pitt fans never could have imagined in our wildest dreams.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: He won the championship of a major conference.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh but I mean there's QBs every year in the draft who have good resumes.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: Why did the Steelers draft this one?
32:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think there are three factors, and Steve, I really want your input on this.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: Because I think if even one of these three factors do not exist, I think the Steelers might actually pass on Kenny Pickett and go back to the playbook of building up a foundation for a future quarterback.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: But I think because of each of these three factors collided, I think they kind of almost get cornered into taking Kenny Pickett.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: So let me go through these.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: I want to get your thoughts.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: So factor number one, this is Kevin Colbert's final draft.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: He had announced that it was his final draft.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: He talked openly about not wanting to leave the Steelers stranded, and I think that plays heavily into the decision to take whoever the best quarterback was available, no matter who it was.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: I think that if Colbert had retired three years later, maybe they don't take Pickett.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: I never thought of that, but I don't know.
33:52
SPEAKER_02: They were so like the Steelers over the years were so like what I would say, reticent to pick any pit player that they had missed out on a lot of pit players.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Well that that that dovetails nicely into factor number two, which is Dan Marino.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: And and Steve, I've lived through about a half century of Pittsburgh sports history.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: I've seen a lot of bad trades, bad losses, bad draft picks, bad ownership decisions.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: I've seen fans get upset about a lot of those, and I've seen fans get over a lot of those with time.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: But the one thing in my lifetime that this town has never, never gotten over, that is still brought up to this day, that we passed on Dan Marino.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: Go look at our Facebook page.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: Anytime we post a pit highlight from back then, or when we did our Gabe Rivera episode, the amount of people that still lament the fact that we had a Hall of Fame legend right here in our own backyard at a time when we desperately needed a quarterback of the future and we let him go to freaking Miami.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: I think the Steelers were well aware of that history and they weren't allowed about to let that happen twice.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, I I yeah.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't like like you can say Kenny Pickett's a failure, but geez, man, he like Matt Canada was the bigger failure.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: But but but but wait, what do you but what do you do you think that the the like the ghost of Dan Marino impacted them?
35:15
SPEAKER_02: Oh for sure, yeah.
35:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean they didn't want to like be accused, I guess, again.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: I I think so.
35:21
SPEAKER_02: I agree with you on that one.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: So so factor number three, and this is one that I stole directly from Steve from a previous episode because he already said it, it's the death of Dwayne Haskins.
35:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I've thought that before.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: If they had Dwayne Haskins, they'd probably just stick with him.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and people forget a month before that 2022 draft, the Steelers already had three quarterbacks on their roster.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: They had Mason, Rudolph, Mitch Trubisky, and Haskins.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: And Haskins was the most interesting because he had literally just been drafted 15th overall by Washington two years earlier.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: And Washington at that time was an absolute dumpster fire of a franchise.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: It was still owned by Danny Snyder, who had run the whole thing straight into the ground.
36:01
SPEAKER_02: Apparently Dwayne Haskins was a dumpster fire, too.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, but but at the time, Haskins was a really talented quarterback at Ohio State, but Washington gave him like 15 minutes to succeed as a starter.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: And then they and then he they cut him for breaking COVID-19 protocols, which was immature and and stupid and hurt his team.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: But my goodness, after what we saw here with like Bell and Brown, not wearing a mask to a party was hardly a serious offense.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: So the Stewart's really had an opportunity here because they had missed on Jalen Hurts, they had not even attempted to solve life after Ben, and maybe their guy magically fell into their lap, but tragically Haskins is killed weeks before the draft under not so great circumstances.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: I think we can probably let the man rest in peace without rehashing all of that.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: But Steve, you said it on the show at the time, right?
36:53
SPEAKER_00: That if the Steelers still have Haskins, they probably don't draft Kenny Pickett.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: I don't think so.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: I mean, Kenny Pickett might be like looking back, I wonder I don't remember who all needed quarterbacks in that draft.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: Maybe somebody picks them up.
37:06
SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: So again, Kevin Colbert's final year, the the ghosts of Dan Marino, and Dwayne Haskins' death, all three of those factors converge to lead them to drafting Kenny Pickett.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: Another interesting thing that's worth mentioning here, this this draft of Pickett happens right after Mike Tomlin's 15th season.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: That's the same season in which Bill Coward decided to leave.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Chuck Knowles' 15th season, get this, Steve, was the year that they lost their first playoff game and Terry Bradshaw retired.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: Just like what had happened with Tomlin and his franchise quarterback after his 15th season.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: It would be a real interesting what-if scenario to ponder how history may have been different had Noel and Tomlin left after the same amount of seasons as Cower.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:57
SPEAKER_02: Well, you wonder what his legacy would be.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: It'd be a little different.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: Same with Noel.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Noel at the end there, very similar to Tomlin.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: So the drafting of Pickett has downstream impact on the rest of the draft because now, just like with Ben, if you've got your franchise quarterback, you have to give him weapons.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: So the Steelers used their second round pick on a wide receiver with a lot of red flags named George Pickens.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: And once again, it looks initially like it worked.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers aren't great in 2022, but they come within one game of making the playoffs.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: And more importantly, it looks like Kenny Pickett, just like he did at Pitt, is getting better as the season progresses.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: He leads a great come from behind victory against the Raiders late in the season.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: Then he does the same thing against Baltimore the week after that.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: And I think after that season, we're all saying, you know, he looks kind of Ben-like.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, he wasn't a guy that was going to be like the Peyton Manning, you know, student of the game quarterback, but he's a guy that will gut out plays and find ways to win you football games in the clutch, right?
39:01
SPEAKER_02: That's what it looked like at the time, but then the next season, I I just think Matt Canada just that was a bad, like, that just destroyed him.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, having Matt Canada there did not help.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: So so like Steve said, the next season, 2023, things fall apart.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: The game I will always remember from that season is the game the Steelers play at Houston in October of that year.
39:26
SPEAKER_00: I remember it, Steve, because it was my dad's 80th birthday.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: And my brother and I asked him, What do you want to do for your 80th birthday?
39:32
SPEAKER_00: And he said all he wanted to do was watch the Steelers game with us.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: So that's what we did.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: We found a sports bar, we celebrated his amazing life, and we watched Kenny Pickett play one of the worst games of football I've ever seen.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't it wasn't bad because he like threw a bunch of interceptions or or like, I don't know, missed guys that were open.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: It was bad because seemingly every time he took a snap, he like instantly evacuated the pocket, regardless of how much pressure there was.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: And and to be fair, the offensive line was in shambles at this point, again, due to the Steelers throwing out the rebuild playbook.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: But I remember thinking after that game, that was the first time, Steve, I thought, like, oh no, this isn't going to work out, is it?
40:14
SPEAKER_00: Because you can't do that in the pros.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: You you can run around and improvise a lot more when you're playing Duke or Boston College.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: But in the NFL, you have to be able to make quick decisions.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: You have to have command of the offense.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: And and, you know, bad offensive coordinator or not, Pickett never really showed any indication that he had that or was even really moving in that direction.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: And then he gets hurt later in the year.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: Right.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: And doesn't then there's a whole scandal whether he was supposed to go to Seattle.
40:43
SPEAKER_02: Because that was the year Mason saves Christmas year, wasn't it?
40:46
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, later that year he loses.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: He he gets hurt, but he does really.
40:50
SPEAKER_02: Well, because Tomlin almost lost his job, because that's when people almost turned on Tomlin because they lost to Arizona and New England, who were absolutely terrible that year.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: Both had like end up with three wins.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, Mason Rudolph comes in.
41:05
SPEAKER_02: And people forget, like, I think that was the same season Deontay Johnson, wasn't he hurt the first four games?
41:11
SPEAKER_02: Was the first game of the season against San Francisco?
41:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: And he got hurt, and they really didn't have much of an offense for three or four weeks.
41:19
SPEAKER_02: And then when Deontay Johnson came back, that opened everything up for pickings, and that made everything better, but the offensive line still wasn't great.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it just it is what it is.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: Because they because again, they hadn't spent those previous drafts building anything up other than wide receivers, tight ends, and and Kenny Pickett, and and running backs.
41:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: So so, like Steve said, Mason Rudolph takes Pickett's job late in that season.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: He gets the Steelers to the playoffs, where they're again boat raced out by this time by the Buffalo Bills.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: Well, remember that whole scandal with Kenny Pickett and like the whole, is he going to Seattle?
41:56
SPEAKER_02: Why wouldn't he go to Seattle?
41:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: That kind of killed them too.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, who knows what actually happened there.
42:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, after that season, though, the Steelers let Mason Rudolph go.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: They do sign Russell Wilson, but Pickett, if he wanted to, still had a legit chance to really buckle down, improve on his pocket presence, maybe earn the starting job back, especially after Russell Wilson ended up getting hurt in training camp.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: But instead, Kenny Pickett requests a trade, which just made the whole thing one gigantic disaster.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so they wasted two first-round draft picks, him and Harris, and it just that that that's why the team is where it is, you know.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's again, that's why we're going through all this.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: You can see everything that and again, Steve, like I said, it's to me, it's more about the what than the who.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: You can draft a bad quarterback.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: In fact, that leads us really to another fork in the road moment because the high draft pick quarterback didn't work out like he wanted it to.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: You know else who had that you know who else had the same problem around this time?
43:03
SPEAKER_00: It's a team called the New England Patriots.
43:06
SPEAKER_02: They did, they were really bad.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Tom Brady had left.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: They drafted a quarterback in the first round named Mac Jones.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: That didn't work out.
43:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: So guess what they did?
43:16
SPEAKER_00: They tried another draft pick, a guy named Bailey Zappi.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: And that didn't work out.
43:21
SPEAKER_02: He had a cool name, though.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: He did have a cool name.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: So then they tried yet another draft pick, a guy named Drake May, and in 2025 they were back in the Super Bowl.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: So so New England, New England was committed to finding their quarterback of the future, even if it meant going back to the drawing board a few times.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers have no such desire.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: They go into 2024 with Russell Wilson and also Justin Fields, who they signed after Kenny left.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: And once again, short term success followed by total collapse and being blown out in a playoff game, this time by Baltimore.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, George Pickens has become an absolute locker room cancer, so he Sent packing as well.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: So to summarize, Steve, the Steelers had three drafts after Ben got hurt in that Seattle game.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, three drafts to lay a foundation for the future using the playbook they had built all those teams on in recent years or in years past.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Kevin Colbert and Mike Tomlin and the Brain Trust of the Steelers selected 22 players in those three drafts.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: Guess how many of those guys are still on the roster on opening day 2025?
44:30
SPEAKER_02: So this would be the last season.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: Um let's say five.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Ding ding ding.
44:36
unknown: Wow.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: Five.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: Five of twenty-two.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: That was really a guess, Tim.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that answer.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: I just I just pulled that out of my butt.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: Those five guys are Alex High Smith, who's really good, Pat Firemouth, Calvin Austin the third, Connor Hayward, and Isaiah Loudermilk.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: The entire rebuilding process.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: And a tight end we barely use, and a guy who can run the touch push really well.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: Not a solid defense, not a good offensive line, and most disastrously, not a quarterback.
45:18
SPEAKER_00: In 2025, the Stewart seem to be moving in a better direction.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: They sign Aaron Rodgers, they make a bold trade of sending Minka Fitzpatrick to the Dolphins for Jalen Ramsey.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: They trade a second round pick for DK Metcalf.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: For a while it feels different, and it is different.
45:32
SPEAKER_00: They win the AFC North, but then once again they're eliminated in the first round, this time by the Houston Texans.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: After that, Mike Tomlin announces his resignation.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: So here we are, right back at pretty much exactly where we were in the summer of 2019, with very little to show for the past seven seasons.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: And it's just a it's just a bad strategy all around.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: We talked about the roster, Steve, but you you all you touched on this.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: It's also reflected in who they hire as assistant coaches, especially on offense.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: Randy Feichner was just there because Ben was familiar with them.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: Matt Canada was a guy that you know had run this great innovative offensive pit, but as Steve pointed out, that did not translate well to the NFL.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: And Arthur Smith was brought in seemingly to build the kind of offense he had success with in Tennessee.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: But instead of Ryan Tannehill handing off to Derrick Henry, the Steelers give him Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: If you're going to hire Smith, why not play to his strengths?
46:31
SPEAKER_00: Again, the whole thing just reeks of no long-term planning.
46:39
SPEAKER_02: It's a win now.
46:40
SPEAKER_02: Like it's very it reminds me of like the Washington, whatever you want to call them of Danny Snyders.
46:47
SPEAKER_02: Remember when he signed like Bruce Smith and Deion Sanders and who else?
46:51
SPEAKER_02: Like I'm trying to think of all the other players.
46:54
SPEAKER_02: Like Jeff George.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like all these older players that were like kind of at the tail end of their prime that were were just cashing in on a paycheck.
47:04
SPEAKER_02: It's not quite that bad, but it's very reminiscent of that.
47:08
SPEAKER_02: In Washington, every year, they'd be like, oh, the greatest free agent signing ever, and it would never go anywhere.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: It would never go anywhere.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: And you're right, the Steelers, it wasn't quite as like flashy as that.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: Because like you said, the the the Redskins, it was always like they won free agency.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't think the Steelers ever won free agency, but the moves that the Steelers made all that time was all geared around short-term.
47:32
SPEAKER_02: There was always crazy rumors.
47:33
SPEAKER_02: There was always like every free agent quarterback was coming to the Steelers.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: Like I remember when it was like, oh yeah, or it's gonna be Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees and you know Peyton Manning and Sean Watson.
47:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and Johnny Unitis and Sid, you know, Sid Gilman, or you know, come on.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, Otto Graham, right?
47:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, come on.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: They they had again, I I I keep going back to Ben getting hurt.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: If Ben doesn't get hurt, I just wonder if it all turns out differently.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: And maybe you're right, Steve.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: Maybe art maybe art the second just tried to force into a championship.
48:10
SPEAKER_02: I think art that comes from art, and then Mike Tomlin kind of caught on to it.
48:15
SPEAKER_02: And like, I think if if they win a Super Bowl in any one of those seven seasons, like especially the last three, Mike Tomlin retires.
48:24
SPEAKER_02: I I'm pretty convinced of that.
48:26
SPEAKER_02: That he rides out into the sunset and goes, Hey, I'm out, and now he is out.
48:32
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if he'll ever coach again.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: But but if but if but if Ben never gets hurt and they would go to the playoffs in 2019, and and maybe they win the first round and they lose in the second round, something to that effect.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: It it just it changes the context of everything.
48:46
SPEAKER_02: Well, I see what you're saying.
48:47
SPEAKER_02: Like, like maybe he just retires after that.
48:50
SPEAKER_02: Like he didn't want to retire after that that 2020 year because it's like they had such a great start.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: Like maybe that too, like kind of fooled everybody.
48:58
SPEAKER_02: It was like a false, false, like, oh, we're a little we looked a little better than we should have been.
49:04
SPEAKER_02: But I still think that 20, if they play that regular, like instead of like all over the place, how they had to.
49:11
SPEAKER_02: And then even the game they lost to the to the to Washington, keep Washington keeps coming up.
49:16
SPEAKER_02: This remember that was like where Alex Smith stole the ball and like didn't get penalized for it at the end of the half.
49:22
SPEAKER_02: Like once again, that penalty gets called if Aaron Rodgers is the quarterback and not Ben Rothelsberger.
49:29
SPEAKER_02: The league, the league just I'm telling you, Tim, the league has their they don't necessarily fix the games, but if you're not a favorite or somebody that they they don't like or don't want in the spotlight, they definitely don't do you any favors.
49:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean we can definitely like debate what went wrong for those last couple of Ben teams.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: I I still think that them winning a Super Bowl either way would have been a long shot.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: And and them doing what they had done in all those other decades, which was saying, okay, our window is closed.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: We now need to build up the foundation of the team with positions like again, like I said, offensive line, defensive line, center, cornerback, those types of positions.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: And also, again, get the quarterback of the future before Ben retires rather than waiting until you're you feel like you're forced to, it would have made a big difference.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: And and they didn't do that.
50:26
SPEAKER_00: They threw all that out the window.
50:27
SPEAKER_00: They said, let's let's ride Ben, let's ride the the the Ben train for two more years.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: And then when Ben did retire, again, they had another chance to to okay, fine.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: We we went all in on Ben, but now we're gonna go back to the drawing board, and they didn't do that either.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: They drafted Pickens and and Pickett, and then after Pickett left, they had another chance, and they do Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: So it's like just over and over and over again, the refusal to go back to doing it the way they'd done it in the past.
50:55
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think they wanted to get TJ Watt a Super Bowl, they wanted to get Cam Hayward a Super Bowl.
51:00
SPEAKER_02: I I think that was it.
51:02
SPEAKER_02: And I think Art wants to get his own Super Bowl.
51:04
SPEAKER_02: I I really do.
51:05
SPEAKER_02: I really it's just become this win now every year, and it's not working because football, it's such a team game, and there's so many parts.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: You have to have enough parts.
51:15
SPEAKER_02: Even remember what was Kansas City lost that one Super Bowl.
51:19
SPEAKER_02: Was that the Tampa?
51:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:21
SPEAKER_02: Where they had no offensive line.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: And like they were still competitive in that Super Bowl, but then they went back and, like you said, they drafted all those guys for their offensive line, and then they they were back to being dominant again.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they drafted Creed Humphrey, like I said, the guy that should have anchored our line for the next decade, but the Steelers wanted to get a a pass-catching tight end instead.
51:42
SPEAKER_00: And like I said, I I really like Pat Firemouth.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: Like I said, it's not about the who, it's about the what.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, all that's depressing.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: But if you want some good news to to to wrap this up, we'll have none of that.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: I I think I think that the playbook that they torched after Ben got hurt is being quietly re-implemented by Omar Khan and Andy White all.
52:05
SPEAKER_00: We said that the final three drafts of the Colbert era were disasters, right?
52:10
SPEAKER_00: Only five of 22 guys left.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, in the first three years of the Omar Khan era, they have gotten Joey Porter Jr., Tori Fatano, Derek Harmon, Zach Frazier, Peyton Wilson, Mason McCormick, Keanu Betton, Darnell Washington, Nick Herbick, Spencer Anderson.
52:29
SPEAKER_00: These are all guys who have made a significant impact already and who figure to be, dare I say, foundational pieces going forward.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: And that list doesn't even include guys like Caleb Johnson and Will Howard and Jack Sawyer and YA Black, who really haven't gotten much of a shot yet.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: So the future could be bright, obviously a ton.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: A ton depends on the quarterback position, and whether or not Mike McCarthy, who you know, Art Rooney says they hired largely to address the quarterback position, can you know mold that guy.
53:04
SPEAKER_02: Will Howard for Super Bowl MVP.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: As obsessed, I think, as we all are in this town with the head coach, the the position, the thing that really matters more than anything is a quarterback.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: And again, they never had a plan to replace Ben.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's coming.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: Um and and at the very least, Steve, it just feels like we're maybe starting slowly to go about it the right way now if you look at the the the Omar Khan drafts as opposed to the end of the Colbert era drafts.
53:37
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
53:38
SPEAKER_02: I still don't like the trading all those people for Jalen Ramsey and all that.
53:42
SPEAKER_02: Like if they can get out of that crap, like I once again, wasn't well, Minka Fitzpatrick, they said was becoming a problem, though I don't know.
53:50
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I never heard of it.
53:52
SPEAKER_00: They traded Minka for Jalen Ramsey.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: I to me, if Jalen Ramsey can play safety, I think that's an improvement.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: Like you can make smart little movies.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: It's not like you can't get veterans, right?
54:02
SPEAKER_00: And it's not like they went out and uh traded like a number one pick to get like you know, because I think I think if you're thinking about like a win now, you're gonna trade draft picks for like superstars or past their prime guys.
54:16
SPEAKER_00: I think you can still make smart.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: Again, go back to like I said, all you have to do is look back at all the other eras where they did stuff like this.
54:24
SPEAKER_00: And and there were guys in that, you know, we talked about Jeff Harding's the center.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: He was at the end of his career when the COR signed him, but he was very serviceable for them and won a Super Bowl for them.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: So you can go out and find guys like that, but you have to have like the foundational draft picks.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: And like those guys I listed.
54:40
SPEAKER_02: You know what's sad about this whole era is TJ Watt's probably gonna go his whole career without winning a Super Bowl or winning a playoff game, even.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Potentially.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: But but like you said, Steve, like it at some point you have to get like the sentimental part out of football.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: If you look at like with Bill Belichick, remember when Bill Belichick cut you know Lawyer Malloy and Tylaw, and everybody's like, oh my god, how can you get rid of these great all-time players?
55:06
SPEAKER_00: But honestly, that's what you have to do.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: It's a business, you have to move forward, and you can't be sentimental about getting TJ or Cam or Ben a championship.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: You have to do it the way you did it and all those other decades, and they just totally got away from that.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: But I like I said, they've stocked draft picks, they've made smart draft picks.
55:26
SPEAKER_00: I think maybe, maybe, maybe they're starting to get back on the right track.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: Again, a lot's gonna depend on what happens to quarterback.
55:33
SPEAKER_02: Well, the draft is in Pittsburgh soon, so we'll see what happens.
55:38
SPEAKER_00: We will, we will.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: All right, thanks everybody for uh going through that with us.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh let us know if you agree or disagree with uh this assessment.
55:48
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55:52
SPEAKER_00: We would appreciate it if you give us a like or a nice comment on whatever podcast you're listening to.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: And we'll catch you next time.