Latest / Half the Picture / #10 - MIKE LEIGH (ft. MARION BAILEY)

Transcript

#10 - MIKE LEIGH (ft. MARION BAILEY) · Half the Picture

0:00
When I ask an actor to take part in the film,
0:02
and this film is absolutely no exception.
0:04
The only exceptions have been the historical film,
0:06
but I can talk about that step.
0:08
I say to an actor, I can't tell anything about the film
0:11
because we're gonna make it up.
0:12
I can't tell anything about the character
0:14
because there is no character
0:16
that you and I are going to collaborate
0:18
to create a character.
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And, and this is the important thing,
0:22
you will never know anything except what your character knows.
0:25
So there's a complete discipline of sequences
0:28
that nobody ever knows anything that their character wouldn't have,
0:31
which means that in improvisations,
0:34
you can have things happen,
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which completely organic and truthful.
0:46
Hey everyone, I'm Billy.
0:47
I'm off and back to half the picture.
0:49
I guess this episode I'm delighted to say
0:51
is none other than national treasure, Mike Lee.
0:54
Originally, it was just going to be Mike Chang to us,
0:56
but Marion Bailey, Mike's amazing collaborator and partner,
0:59
was on her way to the dentist at the same time
1:01
that Mike sat down to chat with us.
1:03
So Mike suggested that she come and join in as well.
1:05
So this episode we recorded back in 22, it's one from our vaults.
1:09
We recorded it around the time that Mike was getting the financing
1:12
ready for hard truths is latest film.
1:15
And if you talked a little bit about his difficulties,
1:17
getting that off the ground
1:18
and the general state of the industry at that time,
1:20
the film industry, I had just started the podcast
1:22
as a student and ever with my friend Ahmed,
1:25
who features in the episode.
1:26
Oh, something else I should say,
1:27
this episode is an audio-only entry of the podcast.
1:30
So luckily, you don't have to see my massive babyface
1:33
yacking on to Mike Lee and fanboying to him for best part of an hour.
1:37
We had so much fun chatting to Mike and Marion on this episode
1:40
and chatting all things about all and nothing,
1:42
but also some of Mike's other films like Naked and Mean Time,
1:45
Secrets and Lies, and I can't wait to share it with you guys.
1:47
We also touched on Mike's rather unique way of making films,
1:51
which I'm sure some of you guys might know about,
1:53
his improvisational methods of writing a script
1:55
with the actors and through rehearsals.
1:57
And we also talked a little bit about
1:59
why device to give filmmakers starting out today,
2:01
as well as his experience working with the cast on
2:03
all and nothing specifically.
2:04
So, you know, you've got Tim Spall,
2:06
Lezzy Manville, Sally Hawkins,
2:07
I mean, so many national treasures.
2:09
And you've got all about and more to look forward to.
2:11
So, without further ado, let's roll on my chat with
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Mike Lee and Marion Bailey.
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Enjoy.
2:17
How are you doing, then, Mike? You okay?
2:19
I'm okay.
2:20
I mean, we're having a massive,
2:22
having massive struggles, getting film backing.
2:25
And I don't know whether you saw today's news,
2:27
was about a bad girl, I mean, read that,
2:29
$100 million dollars worth.
2:32
And they're not going to release it,
2:33
because they didn't stand up to audience tests.
2:37
You know, now, I really wanted something like 15 to 20 million,
2:41
which has turned out to be really impossible.
2:43
And it looks as though we're probably going to make a
2:45
although budget film, but under five million.
2:48
Now, can you imagine how many independent films could be made
2:51
for that amount of bread that's been wasted on that girl?
2:56
I mean, I worked out, if every film was as much as 20 million dollars,
3:00
which is really, I'd have to do really interesting things,
3:03
that's 50 independent films down the drain.
3:07
I'm really pissed off about it, really.
3:10
Money is poured into the big pictures.
3:13
Not only does that take the money away,
3:15
but also it's very hard to get facilities and crews,
3:19
because everybody's making money on the big thing.
3:21
However, having said that,
3:23
we're going to make a low-budget movie, there you go.
3:26
I haven't come here to win, so back to you.
3:29
Excellent, well, no, great news that you've got
3:32
on other projects on the go.
3:33
So, yeah, so today we'll be talking about all on nothing,
3:36
which is now 20 years old.
3:38
I mean, looking back on the film from 20 years distance,
3:41
what's your personal feeling about the film compared to your overwork
3:44
and also in terms of how it,
3:45
when it came out, when it first came out, how it was received?
3:48
Well, it wasn't received very well.
3:49
I mean, one of my main feelings about it is,
3:51
besides doing that, that it was,
3:54
to some degree, not only neglected,
3:56
but some people were quite rude about it,
3:58
and said it was relentlessly, tediously pessimistic,
4:01
which, of course, is rubbish,
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it actually has definite elements of optimism in it.
4:05
But anyway, it's in the nature of my work,
4:08
and the way it gets made and all the rest of it.
4:10
I can't like all my films, really.
4:12
I mean, I don't really, really wish it were,
4:14
I'd say, I don't really like it,
4:16
or I don't have any negative feelings about it.
4:18
I'm very fond of it, you know,
4:20
and it's, there are moments in it that I cherish.
4:22
I mean, I do have to say, I do love all the stuff
4:26
in the car with a lady from France.
4:28
And nobody tests very much about Alison Garland's performances,
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Rachel.
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It's an amazing, wonderful performance,
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really subtle and real and, you know, all that stuff.
4:38
I can't answer a question particularly.
4:40
I mean, I'm very fond of it,
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and I'm glad it's been spotted as with you,
4:44
but it's, it's 20th anniversary.
4:46
Well, I think, I think it's a brilliant film of yours.
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And actually, it's funny that you bring up Alison Garland,
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because I was thinking about her of Rachel,
4:53
like, character, when I was watching it again,
4:55
when one of your films finishes,
4:56
you are left to think about it in terms of where
4:58
could those characters be, where they're going to go after that.
5:01
And there's a real sense of optimism in that ending.
5:03
But then with that character, you know,
5:04
she's sitting now and obviously,
5:06
the attention is on Phil and Penny and James Corden's character.
5:09
But first, she's very quiet.
5:11
She's still withdrawn, yeah, and it's like,
5:13
and I was wondering, as I was watching her like,
5:15
oh, you know, hopefully something will give there,
5:17
you know, that she'll find a voice.
5:18
I agree.
5:19
And actually, I mean, there is no doubt,
5:21
but that scene at the end is a positive about Phil and Penny
5:25
and it's not a bad worry.
5:26
But she knows stuff.
5:28
She knows what's gone, and she, you know,
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you see her cogitating, and yeah, it's a question, you know,
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and I do like to leave questions,
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I'm answer of the microphone.
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The audience will take away and don't bond up.
5:41
Yeah, you almost think that, you know,
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if something does give, it might not be,
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because even though Phil and Penny, you're in a better space
5:47
and Rory as well, you think maybe for Rachel,
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we'll have to come from outside of the family,
5:52
maybe, yeah, something will happen.
5:54
She needs to find a bloat.
5:55
Really?
5:56
Yeah.
5:57
I think that's it.
5:59
Yeah, you might, I think you're honestly there, absolutely.
6:02
Brilliant.
6:03
So the conceptual starting point for all of nothing,
6:05
because as I say, your movies for once the other
6:08
tend to vary quite dramatically in tone,
6:10
you know, something like Hard Labor,
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which is then followed by Nuts in May,
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which is very different to our labor.
6:15
You've got Naked, which is very different,
6:16
totally, to life as sweet.
6:18
And then an all or nothing is very different
6:20
from the film that came before it, Topsy Turvy.
6:22
And I was wondering, the conceptual starting point
6:24
for all of nothing, did you feel a need
6:26
to go back to the streets, is it worth?
6:28
Yeah, absolutely.
6:29
Now, having done Topsy Turvy in a pretty obvious way,
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I thought, okay, now let's go back exactly what you said.
6:35
Let's go back to the streets.
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Let's look at what's happening, you know,
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and that was the starting point was, you know,
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how tough it was for a lot of working class people,
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you know, a simple as that.
6:46
That's the starting point, sure.
6:48
So I like to ask a bit about the,
6:50
so the casting process for the film.
6:52
And I wanted to ask, at what point did you realize that,
6:54
you know, that Marion and Tim and Leslie
6:57
and a lot of your regulars, your veterans,
7:00
that you've worked before?
7:01
What was the point at which you knew
7:02
that those actors were the ones that you wanted to use?
7:05
Well, I mean, that's a question with no remarkable.
7:08
The answer at the point was,
7:10
well, am I not decided to invite them to do it?
7:11
I mean, the creative process,
7:13
you can't always log the exact accumulation of decisions.
7:17
But to begin with, I knew that I was going to put Leslie
7:20
and Tim's sport together as a couple.
7:23
Now, as I often do, I did a very open set of auditions
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by the casting director, Nina Gold,
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there's a brilliant cast of director,
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would bring in all sorts of people
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that she discovered or knew about.
7:36
Two of the people who came in the auditions
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were, James will now rules the world, as you know,
7:43
and Alison Garland.
7:45
Now, you'd have to have been dumb,
7:47
not to spot that they could be play brother and sister
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because they're both quite tubby.
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And I knew that Tim's ball at that time was also tubby,
7:55
was going to be the dad.
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And so that suggested that.
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And hence, you got James and Alison playing these tubby kids.
8:05
It's the first time I came across Sally Hawkins
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and she was obviously brilliant.
8:09
So, what are they doing?
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And it went from there, really.
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And, you know, it's hard to say any more about it than that.
8:16
It's kind of one on a box on the project
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with a whole lot of possibilities,
8:21
but it's still open as to, you know,
8:23
how you're going to deploy people.
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It sort of grows organically.
8:27
So, Marion, I mean, talking about this film specifically
8:30
because obviously you've done so much with Mike,
8:32
so much great work.
8:34
With this film, what were your sort of conversations
8:37
with Mike about the character that you played?
8:39
Because when I was watching it,
8:40
I was reminded a little bit of the character you played
8:43
in mean time, very slightly.
8:46
There's a shot in mean time at the end of,
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I think it's your last shot of the film
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where you're sitting there and you're arguing with Marina.
8:51
When she's hit the gym.
8:53
Yeah, she's the gym and she's got tears running down her face
8:56
and she's very, and she tells him to fuck off.
8:58
And as I was watching all the nothing,
9:00
I kind of thought it obviously, the character's very different.
9:02
But if you took a snapshot of your face at the end of that scene
9:06
and sort of flung it 20 years into the future,
9:09
you would have something that may be quite close to assembling.
9:11
That's interesting.
9:12
That's interesting because, as you, I'm sure, no.
9:15
Mike always gets the actors to start off
9:18
with either a source character or in both cases,
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they were an amalgam of three people
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I've actually known in my life.
9:26
None of whom coincided, by the way, you know,
9:29
that three characters that I used as any starting point,
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you move away from those source characters as you work with Mike.
9:37
But the starting point of the three people I had for Auntie Barbara
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were different people to the people I had in my mind for Carol.
9:46
But interestingly, I suppose what they had in common,
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now you mentioned it and I really never thought about this before,
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but as I was creating their life history with Mike,
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they were both what I described as Daddy's girls.
9:58
They both grown up as quite pretty, quite intelligent,
10:02
wanting to please their father.
10:04
In the case of Carol, her background history
10:07
was that she had an older brother who died,
10:11
I think in a car accident, as I remember.
10:13
And that sort of ruined her relationship with her father.
10:17
He never got over it, really.
10:19
And she tried too hard to please him
10:22
and she grew up trying to please mesh.
10:24
She was, you know, male default to an extreme extent.
10:29
And she'd met her Ronnie, okay, by a wonderful Paul Jessum.
10:33
You know, he seems to her everything that a man should be kind of masculine
10:37
and a hard worker.
10:40
And she wanted to be the little woman and not go out to work.
10:42
And she was, when she was younger, very pretty.
10:46
And Barbara, on the other hand, in meantime,
10:49
was intelligent and did want to go to work.
10:51
She wanted to be a bank manager, actually.
10:53
But because she had a slight London accent in those days
10:56
and I did all the research into this.
10:58
Shockingly, everyone I spoke to you
11:00
worked in the city and remembered those days
11:02
said, oh, if she had a slight London accent,
11:04
no way we should ever have been allowed to progress
11:07
beyond sitting behind the counter in a bank.
11:10
I feel more optimistic about Auntie Barbara's future
11:13
than Carol's future.
11:15
I think Carol was or became an alcoholic.
11:18
I don't think Barbara would have done.
11:19
She was just having a very bad moment.
11:22
And she hit the gin.
11:23
I feel she probably could have escaped
11:26
that marriage in costume in her life.
11:28
I think Carol was beyond redemption, bless her.
11:31
Yeah, it's a fate that you kind of dread
11:32
for some of the other characters in that film
11:34
all and nothing.
11:35
And they're all sort of trapped in
11:37
co-dependent relationships.
11:39
I mean, as I was watching it,
11:40
I know that you and Mike, and not only you,
11:42
but like all the actors, there's a really
11:44
forum at a research done into your characters.
11:46
And I think you guys had reasons for like,
11:48
okay, this is what happened to it at one point with,
11:50
and this is why she turns to drink in.
11:53
It was all there in the foundations.
11:55
Yes, and I remember at one stage, however,
11:59
because when we started rehearsals,
12:00
as I was working through it,
12:02
she had quite a sexy little walk.
12:04
She was on top of things.
12:05
She felt, you know, they had a lovely, beautiful daughter.
12:08
She felt life was pretty good.
12:10
And I remember it was a certain point in rehearsals
12:13
when Mike wasn't what he ultimately wanted.
12:15
And I was being pushed into making
12:18
for more of a wreck, you know,
12:20
and the wreck that she became.
12:22
You know, you don't just walk into a room.
12:23
He says, okay, I think I want her
12:25
to be more broken down than this.
12:28
It's all done by talking about the character
12:30
and what becomes of her and what her life situation is.
12:33
Of course, as their marriage went long,
12:35
it wasn't successful.
12:37
He sort of, for and out of love,
12:39
she became more needy.
12:41
A daughter was a bit of a brat,
12:43
and she couldn't handle it.
12:45
And her dreams of an idyllic domestic life didn't work out.
12:49
And that's ultimately what destroyed her, really.
12:52
So there wasn't much research to be done.
12:55
I mean, I do enjoy a drink, but you know, that was bad.
12:58
There wasn't in terms of, like, you know,
13:00
someone I can't see Barbara who worked in banking.
13:02
And you know, there was a lot of research to do there.
13:05
But obviously for Carol, her life was simply
13:08
sitting in front of a mirror,
13:09
putting on makeup, having a drink,
13:12
going out with the girls.
13:13
That was the high point of her life.
13:15
And even then, you know, they put up with her, Blasda.
13:19
I'm going out in character.
13:20
Yes, I just sort of wand around charity shops and markets
13:24
to buy cheap clothes,
13:26
but she really wanted to be more than cheap clothes in jewelry.
13:31
She wanted to be gorgeous.
13:33
And her gorgeousness was fading,
13:35
like, had faded with a family meeting at the film.
13:38
So it was interesting how we came to that stage of her life.
13:43
We went through that process,
13:44
but it was done organically and talking to me,
13:48
the actor about what happened to the character
13:51
and life disappointments.
13:52
The relationship with the other two women, as I remember,
13:56
that was her absolute only lifeline.
13:59
But of course, she wasn't the best of friends
14:01
because she was so threatened really by other women.
14:05
So on the one hand, she did that thing
14:07
and people do do when they're drunk.
14:09
On the one hand saying, oh, you're so gorgeous.
14:11
I love you so much and, oh, do you love me?
14:13
Do you love me? How much do you love me?
14:15
I really love you.
14:16
I trust her, but it's just so mad.
14:18
And then the next minute being viciously bitchy,
14:21
but somehow they put up with her.
14:24
And of course, they were neighbors
14:25
and so there wasn't a necessary network.
14:28
And when she was younger,
14:29
she was probably found a good time girl,
14:32
good fun to go out with.
14:33
It was only as the years went by.
14:36
You know, you hear them talking about her
14:37
at the beginning of the film say,
14:39
well, I suppose you better invite Carol.
14:41
So it's a very held her aloft in a way,
14:44
but I would imagine if you were to sort of see
14:46
those three characters further down the line,
14:49
the other two women have a lot going for them.
14:51
I love the relationship with the next or with the girl
14:54
who's pregnant and, you know,
14:56
she's so wonderful that mother,
14:58
exactly the sort of mother you want
15:00
in those circumstances.
15:01
And I felt quite optimistic about Leslie Manville's character
15:05
in her marriage by the end.
15:07
You know, they've had that huge trauma
15:08
of the son who's had a heart attack.
15:11
And a few home truths have been spoken.
15:14
I always feel very optimistic for that family by the end.
15:17
I think it's actually what a happy ending the film
15:20
because, you know, he's going to start eating
15:22
more sensibly and they're going to start looking
15:26
after each other more as a family.
15:28
You know, she had needs that weren't met.
15:30
He had needs that weren't met.
15:32
The children had needs that weren't met.
15:34
Their lives were never going to get better financially,
15:37
possibly, but, you know, between themselves,
15:40
I think they were going to be able to cope better.
15:42
So the only family that really hit the buffers
15:46
was Carol and Ron's family.
15:48
Even so though, you know, lovely Sally Hawkins
15:51
who played our daughter.
15:53
She's had a bit of a wake up call by the end.
15:55
And I think she is going to climb up
15:58
towards in life, hopefully.
16:00
You know, there's some hope for her,
16:01
but probably not much hope on me and Carol.
16:05
Well, yeah, well, that's the thing, you know,
16:07
you really do get the impression
16:08
that Sally Hawkins, despite the fact that she's bored
16:11
in this environment, that she's practical.
16:13
You know, she, yeah, she's good.
16:15
Yes, yes, yes.
16:16
I remember doing the improvisation
16:18
when he has the heart attack.
16:19
And my character sort of goes upstairs
16:22
and has been told to go and phone an ambulance.
16:25
And of course, she's not capable of doing that.
16:27
She's stood there absolutely incapacitated.
16:30
And I remember having to actually, after about 20 minutes,
16:34
I don't know, gone by, stocked the improvisation
16:37
and said, okay, she's not going to be able
16:39
to make that phone call is shit.
16:41
And I said, no, she hasn't got the word with all anymore
16:44
to be practical and make that decision.
16:47
You know, and she was very similar to her daughter,
16:50
when she was young.
16:51
Yes, there was that practical side,
16:53
as you're quite right.
16:54
So Sally's character.
16:55
You're up to go.
16:56
I have to go.
16:57
It's very nice to talk to both.
16:59
Yeah.
17:00
Absolutely.
17:01
Thank you.
17:02
Thank you.
17:04
Well, darling, you could hardly have prepared questions.
17:08
That was amazing.
17:11
Thank you.
17:12
We're a bit like, say, we're big fans.
17:13
No, good.
17:14
Thank you for that.
17:15
That was great.
17:16
No, that was great.
17:17
And I did bonus.
17:18
Excellent.
17:19
So I was on to ask a little bit about your methods
17:21
and making a film, which is famously done
17:24
for a lot of improvisation with the actors and rehearsals,
17:26
rather than just sitting down and writing a script.
17:28
And I know that you get asked about your method
17:30
and awful lot.
17:31
And I don't want to press the point, but I was just wondering
17:33
if you'd give us a brief rundown and idea of it.
17:36
Yeah.
17:37
So basically, the first and most important thing
17:42
for everyone to get their head round
17:44
is when we talk about improvisation.
17:46
It is not improvised on camera.
17:49
But the time it gets in front of the camera is very structured,
17:52
very scripted, very precise, but remains organic.
17:56
First of all, we spend months, as we did on all or nothing,
17:59
in the rehearsal situation, where we,
18:02
I sit down individually with each actor
18:05
and we get the characters on the go by basing them
18:09
on real people that the actors talk about to start with.
18:12
Then we put them together and we start to build up
18:15
through improvisation, discussion,
18:18
quite a lot of research where it's appropriate and necessary,
18:21
so that you build this whole world, this whole microcosm.
18:24
I mean, obviously, my job as dramatist,
18:27
if you like, a filmmaker, is to be putting it together,
18:30
pushing it and pulling it in the direction
18:32
so that what we arrive at is the premise for a film.
18:36
We don't rehearse the precise content of the film
18:41
in that whole period.
18:43
At the end of that period, I will write a sort of structure
18:46
in a very professional way, not least,
18:48
because it helped, if necessary,
18:50
at the point of the organization of the film,
18:52
from a practical filming and design point of view.
18:55
And then, scene by scene, sequence by sequence,
18:58
location by location, we have rehearsals without the crew,
19:02
where I will start with the actors improvising in the location,
19:06
and then we'll through rehearsal,
19:07
we'll script the scenes,
19:09
or we're doing it through rehearsing,
19:11
not by me going away,
19:12
practicing down a bits of paper and bringing it back,
19:14
until we arrive at the precise,
19:16
and then the crew will rejoin us,
19:18
and we will shoot the scenes.
19:21
And we are, for my point of view,
19:23
we are actually in strict terms,
19:25
still making a film that was going to go along,
19:27
and there have been a whole bunch of my films,
19:30
including this one,
19:32
where we shot a lot of the film before we knew that was really going to end.
19:36
Obviously, there are certain kinds of dramaturg tricks,
19:40
I mean, for example, in this film,
19:42
James Corden said to me one day,
19:44
it doesn't look like he's here to be happy,
19:46
he's the same way I said,
19:47
look, hold on to that,
19:48
and then one day I said,
19:50
look,
19:51
we're going to make an advanced decision,
19:53
you and I,
19:54
which nobody else will know that.
19:55
And by the way, I should have said this,
19:57
one of the key things that makes it all work,
20:00
is that when I ask an actor to take part in the film,
20:03
and this film is absolutely no exception,
20:05
the exceptions have been the historical film,
20:07
but I can talk about that step.
20:09
I say to an actor,
20:10
I can't tell anything about the film,
20:11
because we're going to make it up,
20:13
I can't tell anything about the character,
20:15
because there is no character,
20:17
you and I are going to collaborate to create a character.
20:20
And, and this is the important thing,
20:23
you will never know anything except what your character knows.
20:26
So there's a complete discipline of sequences
20:29
that nobody ever knows anything that they character wouldn't have,
20:32
which means that in improvisations,
20:35
you can have things happen,
20:36
which completely organic and truthful.
20:38
So I stuck down with James Corden and said,
20:42
okay, between you and me,
20:44
he's going to have a heart attack.
20:45
And of course, we knew that we were dealing with a fat boy
20:48
who eats badly and it's such as,
20:50
and sits around all day all day.
20:51
If they was obviously a candidate for the coronary condition.
20:55
And so you're going to be researching heart attack.
20:58
And so we did that.
20:59
Nobody else knew about it.
21:00
So it meant when we do the heart attack,
21:02
which we did there out there,
21:03
where you see it,
21:04
literally, under the improvisations,
21:06
it was a proper shock,
21:07
and it was a shock all the way down the line.
21:09
And I think I invented the idea that our taxi driver
21:13
should, after he's experienced with that,
21:15
rather formative or French lady.
21:17
Or by the way,
21:18
you know, that's Catherine Hunter,
21:19
who plays the witch in the recent film,
21:22
that Beth, the movie.
21:23
Yes, she's amazing.
21:24
Amazing actress.
21:26
I had this idea that he would just bugger up out of town
21:29
and turn his mobile off and disappear.
21:32
And then we have this extraordinary identity
21:34
would actually go down to where he goes,
21:37
which would probably recognize.
21:39
So all these things are set up in order to explore
21:41
and exacerbate the situation.
21:43
Yeah, I mean,
21:44
they're beautifully done.
21:45
And I'm letting you talk to what you said about how
21:48
that is very much the prep stage.
21:50
So when I was watching all of the thing again,
21:52
there's such beautifully designed shots in the movie
21:55
that you indic post capture.
21:56
And like there's a couple of examples that jump to mind.
21:59
So that incredible pushing on Leslie and Tim at the end
22:02
when they reconcile about it,
22:03
you know, that beautiful shot.
22:04
And then there's the shot where Craig
22:06
and Sally Hawkins' character,
22:07
they share that kiss.
22:08
And then the camera,
22:09
there's like a symmetry to the shot,
22:11
like they come round one side of the estate.
22:13
And then, you know,
22:14
it's the what's a tracking shot.
22:15
And she goes around the other side.
22:16
It's like,
22:17
there's a beautifully photographed.
22:18
And I was wondering when that starts.
22:20
Yeah, that prep.
22:21
Yeah, I mean,
22:22
of course, the key thing is my relationship with the Pope.
22:26
I mean, he has shot all of my films,
22:28
as you all know,
22:29
since, like, his suite.
22:31
I know that you've seen all the films,
22:33
including Peter Lou.
22:34
Yes, I have seen all your films.
22:36
Speak fast.
22:37
Why didn't it come?
22:38
We're going.
22:40
That's why we're here.
22:42
That's what I want.
22:43
I'm Peter Lou,
22:46
just to digress for a moment.
22:47
Everybody on the production team
22:50
started to say,
22:52
we really ought to think about having a story board artist for us.
22:55
It's really important because
22:57
this is going to be very different
22:58
from what you've done before.
22:59
You know,
23:00
and I said,
23:01
no way.
23:02
Absolutely no way,
23:03
because we know how we work.
23:05
work, we set up the action, we look at the action and then we decide on what, based on what we
23:10
can see how to shoot them. Yeah, no, no, no, it'll be different because it'll be too complicated
23:14
and you know, even Dick said, you know, maybe we should think about it. And I said, if you have
23:19
a storyboard artist, he or she will spend all the time in the caravan or in hospital because I've
23:24
broken their legs. And we didn't have a storyboard artist. The point about this is that the way we work,
23:33
Dick Pope and I is absolutely organic. I mean, you know, I will, I mean, if you're talking about
23:38
all or nothing, I would have prepared the action in the location and the way that I've described,
23:44
I mean, he will join in and then we'll look at it and decide how we're going to shoot.
23:47
The tracking shot where it moves in on their intimate moment across the, that was a really
23:54
difficult tracking shot because first of all, it had to track completely silently across this
23:59
apartment. In the shot, if you go back and look at it, you'll see that there's a table with stuff
24:03
on it next to work where he's sitting. That was in the way of the dolly. So very discreetly,
24:09
at certain rehearsed point, the prop guys had to remove the table and the stuff on it silently
24:18
as the camera moved in. That's a really elaborate kind of stuff. And you refer to another, oh yeah,
24:24
the trucking shot at night with the two kids around the garage. I mean, we often thought,
24:31
is this, do we track here? No, we don't need to track, shouldn't track. It's got to have something
24:35
to say, it's got to have a meaning, it's got to have a, it's got to be organic of a whole thing.
24:40
And so we work it out with a very brilliant team of guys around the camera and you get the results.
24:47
And they're beautiful. And the answer, the idea for those shots, that is not in the
24:50
prep or rehearsal stage. That is very, in the sheet. No, I, well, I may, a number of different
24:55
things can go on. First of all, I set up the action and I construct it. Now, in doing so,
25:01
inevitably, well, I'm doing so, I'm thinking professionalist and nomatically because I know I'm
25:06
making a film. So Dick will join in when I've got to the right point with a crew and will run this
25:13
action for the crew. And I may say, I think it's this. And he may, well, say, absolutely.
25:20
Now I can see that. Let's, let's on it. Let's do it. Or equally, like,
25:26
glues that I will say, I may say, it's here. And he may say, yep, I can see that. But actually,
25:32
I was standing over that. Or if we did it, there's a light specter. So we'll then negotiate it and
25:39
work it out. And we have to stay with us and they'll run bits for us. And there are soon,
25:44
especially when you get longer sequences where I will work and work out, but actually without
25:50
actually working out shots in advance. And then he will, we'll then break the action down and
25:55
go through it and work out, you know, our, our plan. But on occasion, of course, there are
26:02
different, there are certain things that happen where certain kinds of locations. I mean, I suppose
26:07
in the hospital or something, I don't know. Well, you haven't got a choice of shooting every
26:13
angle, you know, you've got to make, you go on a record and look at the location. And you
26:20
know that you've got to shoot in a certain direction. And so, oh, it's got to be lit,
26:24
it can only be lit lighting can only go in in a certain place. So that makes a decision for you.
26:29
But that's fine. You know, that's another part of the cinematic decision making equation.
26:35
Well, it's fascinating. And so it's clear from your films that you're not interested,
26:39
particularly, it seems to me in making these explicit simplistic political statements to,
26:44
you know, to an audience, you kind of, you keep that stuff very much implicit in under the
26:48
surface of the story and the drama. And I was curious. So as I was watching while
26:52
and I was thinking back to things like meantime, naked, and even happy go lucky to some extent.
26:58
And since they're like, there's an idea in the films to me that there's education. And then
27:02
there's working class characters like the characters you find in all and a thing like Sally
27:05
Hawkins's character, because they have their undernourished perhaps by lack of education. They
27:10
haven't really got the opportunity despite being practical and clear, you know, capable of real
27:14
intelligence to get out there and escape from where they are. And I was running, do you sort of
27:19
see all of nothing as being a continuation of the idea? Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's obvious that
27:25
Johnny in naked is a victim of the education system in the sense that there's a really bright guy
27:33
who you could comfortably say could or should have gone to university, et cetera. But you know
27:38
that he was chucked out of the classroom all the time by teaching him a half time instead of
27:43
them encouraging him and nourishing it. The flip side of Johnny, I always think is poppy,
27:50
who you refer to in happy go lucky, who obviously has got the same kind of
27:55
anarchy and sardonic humour as Johnny, but she's and they're both idealists, but he's a frustrated
28:02
idealist and she's an idealist who does something with it. You're right in saying that the kids
28:08
in them all are nothing. None of them are thick. They're all bright, but it's been wasted. You
28:13
know, they haven't been stimulated or you know taken seriously or given the opportunity and so on.
28:19
So yeah, I think you're absolutely right. But it is implicit, you know, and in some ways it will
28:25
be wrong for me to say or imply that I'd sort of thought this is a film about education because
28:32
in a way it's implicit in the whole condition of their lives, these characters lives that we're
28:38
looking at and that's part of that. And I think it's fascinating that that thing does come up again
28:44
and again in your work and I love the fact that in happy go lucky, you've made a film which is,
28:48
as you say, it's the flip side. It's the positive, you know, it's like this is a teacher who is
28:52
really practical and generous and is great at her job, she's a great teacher. So I love these
28:57
contrasts and the way you go into it. So in fact, some people may or may not know about your films
29:02
as well as that they remain untitled until quite late in the game. You don't start with a title
29:06
like all on nothing and then you go, okay, we're going to make all on nothing. As you say, you sort
29:09
of develop it and then it takes form. And I was wondering at what point did all
29:14
enough things suggest itself as a title and did you have any other ideas for this?
29:17
I mean, the point is this, we never have a title. The only exception was Peter Lou because we knew
29:24
it was about the Peter Lou massacre. So we called it Peter Lou and that's the only film I've made
29:28
which wasn't called untitled at the year it was made. So all on nothing was called untitled
29:35
01 because it was made in 2001 and there's no way you would know what is going to be called
29:41
because you don't know what the film is. As late as possible in the post-production stage
29:46
and really it's in time for the guy to do the graphics, I've finally under pressure to sit down
29:52
and decide what they're able to call the film. So it's as late in the day as possible that I
29:57
decide on the title and that's the answer to your question. I mean, it's as simple as that.
30:01
Speaking of post-production, I was hoping to ask you a bit about that. So this is the second film
30:05
that you've edited digitally, I believe, on average, after the top service was the first.
30:09
You'd obviously edited all your previous ones before top-sittering your analogue methods and
30:13
I think even in the credits you have edited on real film at the end of the credits of your films.
30:18
Did you feel more comfortable with digital on this film? Second time round?
30:22
It's interesting. I mean, well, we were going to edit topsy-turvy on a steam bag,
30:29
analogue and one day during the shoot of topsy-turvy, and you're familiar with topsy-turvy
30:36
yeah. We were in the doing the theatre stuff at Richmond. This massive stuff with all
30:43
these actors on stage and all these very, very thick cumbersome mechardo costumes and the
30:50
whole orchestra and people in the audience and lighting and it was a fantastic hot summer.
30:57
Our people were grumbling and we were having them behind schedule and everything was really tough.
31:02
It was lunchtime and my late producer Simon, Johnny Williams, suddenly materialised with
31:08
Robin Sales, the editor, and they said, we need to talk to you. We've got an issue.
31:14
So let's go behind this bus. So when we're behind the bus and they said, for financial reasons,
31:20
we're going to have to edit this film on average. And I said, I'll tell you what, I don't care what
31:26
where it is. Because at the moment the job is just to get this thing shot.
31:31
It's interesting to think back to that because what you've got was, this is the weird thing about
31:35
that stage of the transition from one mode of work into the next, was that the point is this,
31:43
it is a tool. And I was in Hollywood doing press for I think secrets and lives and there was a massive
31:51
industry screening in a big cinema with a park with film workers. And somebody said, you know,
31:58
we've got a pair of scissors on the end of the film. Why are you so committed to editing on film?
32:03
And I made this speech about, you know, the thing about editing on film is it gives you time to think
32:09
the trouble with digital editing is there's no time to think all this. And some people clapped and
32:14
cheered and said, great, now I look back on it. I think cut a whole number of films digitally.
32:22
Bullshit, complete bullshit. I mean, it's just taking a fortune, it's taking on books because I used to,
32:28
you know, being the cutting room and it's okay, well, we need to look at 196, 85 and then we'll
32:34
let's say, okay, well, give us an hour, give us an hour and a half and we'll find the trim,
32:40
you know, so they have to sort it all up. And so I'd go wandering around Charing Cross Road and
32:45
going to the second-hand push shops and spend some more money. Suddenly, you know, you want to see
32:50
196 take four and you go, and it's that, you know, so the idea that editing the old fashioned way
32:58
was in some way better or more creative is rubbish-based. The tool is there to be used. I don't look
33:06
back at on my 15 or 16 or whatever it is films and I don't in any way in my head differentiate
33:14
between those we cut in one mode or those we cut in the later mode because in the end,
33:19
we've got it with the same cinematic spirit and the same sense of what it's all about and it's
33:24
really, they're just tools to be used. So that's a rough tool. Yeah, quite right. And sticking with
33:30
the editing theme, so your films, you're concerned with your films with the rhythms of everyday life
33:35
and everyday people and less with the cuss of quick rhythms that you find in like an action movie
33:40
or like a sports movie, which are very quick and cut. And there's an idea that I think
33:43
me and Arnold have come across in our studies, which is the really action-packed scenes of the hardest
33:48
ones to edit and no experience, I think, would say that they're not because the rhythms where you cut
33:52
are much more obvious because it's much more cursive and quick. And I was wondering, like,
33:56
when you editing your movies, do you find them at all? Are they at all challenging to edit because
34:00
of the fact you're focusing in on sort of such quiet rhythms? I mean, certainly it's such a lot,
34:07
very shooting. I mean, sometimes I will say, okay, can you get a really brilliant piece of acting
34:11
and emotional stuff going? And I say, let's go again. And we'll say, well, why are we going again?
34:17
That was great. And I said, well, I don't know. Let's see what happened. And you shoot it. And
34:23
when we get to the cutting, and we really start sifting through, you've got new answers. It's
34:30
what new answers have behaved. New answers of rhythm and emotional strengths and, you know, almost
34:37
so that is obviously a zillion miles away from the kind of action movie cutting. And in that sense,
34:44
you're right, in that sense, it's more obvious when you're cutting action movie stuff. We're not
34:51
concerned with subtleties and nuances of emotional behaviour and subtext. We're talking about,
34:58
you know, just what happens. So it horses the courses, actually. I mean, you know, the famous scene,
35:05
I guess, in one of my films is in secrets and lies, when the mother and the daughter meet for the
35:11
first time and they go and sit in a café. And you know, that's it. Yeah. And it holds up for eight
35:16
and a half minutes in one single two shot. When we did it, I think we did three or four takes.
35:23
And then we, as you naturally would, went in on it and did reverse it. And when we got to the
35:29
cutting, and we looked at it, we realised that actually cutting in on it took something away
35:35
from it. And that one of the takes was so perfect that you really would be mad to mess with it
35:42
because it was all going on and you're drawn into it precisely because there are no tricks, you know.
35:48
So if there is, but I mean, if you look at Peter Lou, obviously what we've done there,
35:53
I mean, in the end when it gets to the massacre, we shot it with three cameras and we didn't
35:57
storyboard. We built the action in the organic way that we always do. But we were working with all
36:03
those great range of elements of all shapes and sizes. People running around the horses and,
36:09
you know, violence and all the rest of it. And, you know, very much edited material.
36:13
The great editor, John Gregory, who cut that film on a whole bunch of mountains, unfortunately died
36:19
last year and material. I mean, he spent ages in that cutting and sorting out a Peter Lou
36:26
stuff. And, you know, what would happen with John? He'd say, okay, look, I've done something.
36:31
I'm going to show it to you. If you don't like it, I'll take it, but put it back to how it was. But
36:36
you'll have to see what you think. And sometimes I might say, amazing. You really,
36:41
we've really advanced. And sometimes I might say, you know what? I don't agree with this because
36:46
XYZ and then fine. So it's collaborations, the important part. In the end, there is no getting
36:52
away from the fundamental fact of life, which is that all films are made in the cut of all
37:00
all films. It is about what I was in the edit really, really is.
37:06
Okay. So moving on to another one of your collaborators, you know, who you worked with
37:09
several times, Andrew Dixon and the score for the film, which is really interesting and it's
37:14
beautiful. And as I was listening to it back, I was thinking, you know, it felt like an organic
37:20
continuation, if you like, of what you guys have did on naked and secrets and lies. You know,
37:24
there's a lot of strings as double bases and biolas. But with all enough, you have, you know,
37:30
these extra elements like flutes and acoustic guitars and, you know, these different instruments
37:34
come into the mix. And I was just curious what kind of conversations you and Andrew had about
37:38
the music and, you know, did you suggest things like that to him? No. First of all, the important
37:45
thing, so far as I'm concerned, is that I don't really like to work with, I don't really do
37:49
work with composers who start from their own emotional reaction to the material. In other words,
37:55
of course, there are plenty of composers who compose generic movie music. And I'm
38:00
interested in that at all. I mean, it's about working with composers who have a voice,
38:04
but who also can start from what they feel about what's happening dramatically and the emotional.
38:10
And with Andrew, he collects old quirky instruments and he's gotten, he's got completely original
38:16
take on it all. He will come up with suggestions for the voice of the film, the instruments,
38:22
on the whole composer's doing. I mean, when we did naked, he had this idea for using a harp.
38:28
Actually, the harp that's played in the score on naked and played by a very famous harpist
38:33
called Skylar Kanga. He got in touch with her. Skylar lives in two houses in North London,
38:40
two semi-detached houses. She lives in one and the other ones full of harps. I mean,
38:44
spent a whole day in this and the harp house going around listening to different kinds of harps
38:49
that she's got. For Vera Drake, which he composed the score for, he had this idea appropriate to
38:56
the subject matter of the film that the score should include children's voices. And he recorded some
39:02
stuff with some kids. And it didn't quite work because of the limitation of children's voices.
39:08
So he followed the idea through and we have that idea on the score, but he got a woman's choir
39:14
to do it rather than kids, because they've got a greater resonance and more workable with
39:19
also. So for all or nothing, yeah, he made those decisions or suggestions and then we test them
39:27
and try them and I might make suggestions. In the end, again, it's what I said about the additive.
39:33
I mean, it's about working with a creative person, whose input is personal.
39:39
And so with the exception of Popsie Turvy, I think, which has obviously a huge,
39:42
you know, orchestra behind it to put on the Gilbert and Sullivan, you tend to use quite small groups
39:47
of musicians for your film scores about around five to eight people, I think is kind of the average
39:51
maybe. And is that purely a budgetary decision or would you prefer smaller groups?
39:55
Well, the two things are related. It is budgetary, but it's not, it'd be wrong to say it's just budgetary.
40:02
The whole principle of making it is cut our cloth according to its length. You refer to
40:06
Andrew's score for meantime. Well, that was tap piano. I like to say a piano with
40:12
throwing pins put in the hammers and a saxophone, two instruments. There's no doubt that that's
40:17
as much as possible. But that's fine because that's what we did. Whereas it would have been
40:23
eccentric to try and record the music from a topsy turvy, which Carl Davis composed,
40:29
drawing in completely from the works of Sullivan. It would have been mad to do it other than
40:34
with a full scale orchestra, you know, it would be seriously eccentric. So that was budgeted
40:39
for all this acidity. But in the end, it's about being imaginative within what's possible.
40:48
Brilliant. So that kind of covers everything we want to ask about all or nothing. But we had a
40:52
couple, if you've got a bit of time, Mike, we had a couple of bonus questions, I suppose.
40:56
In the 1960s, you lived off Tottenham Court Road when Richard Leicester and the Beatles
41:02
were making hard days. No. Right outside my where I live, yeah, literally. Yeah, I was just like,
41:09
what was that like? And I didn't know here. You say that there was a shot of your flat in the movie,
41:13
I think. So you're old. Oh, yeah, there is. There is. Yeah. I wasn't a whole flat with the room.
41:17
We all had rooms in this building. It's still the building is still there. The old Scarlet theatre,
41:23
which was pulled down and replaced by what was then channel four. And it's now been pulled down
41:27
and replaced by something else. That was right outside. It's in Charlotte Street. The stage door
41:32
was in Tottenham Street, which is the street I lived in. And yeah, I mean, I went and watched it
41:39
being filmed, you know, it was very exciting. I mean, wild schoolgirls run rounds and round the
41:44
block all the time screening because the Beatles. I mean, I was saying to me the other day that we
41:51
were running through these questions. And he said, when like a production blocks like a road for like
41:56
an hour, it's annoying, but like having the Beatles making a movie must have been insane.
42:00
Well, it was, but I was simultaneously at that time on the foundation course at Campbell
42:05
White Arts School and at the London Film School, the evening. I'm a London Film School was also
42:10
around the corner in the same spot. So it was all going on. I mean, for me, it was just all part of
42:14
what was happening, really, you know, incredible. So this next question I've kind of wondered
42:19
about for a while now. I don't know if it's a trivial question or not, but there's a scene in
42:22
naked, which to me is quite a adding magic. And I don't know if it should be an imactic, but there's
42:26
the scene where Johnny and Gina McKee meet up and Johnny goes round to Gina McKee's, the fight
42:32
that she's staying in with the couple, you know, the gay couple of ones in America. And over the
42:36
course of that scene, you see her character start to crack up and kind of break a bit. And then
42:41
there comes a moment where she stands up and, you know, and Johnny is being Johnny, but you know,
42:45
is not being Johnny is he is in some of some of the other characters in the film. Yeah, more a
42:49
cervic. And there's a moment where Gina McKee's character stands up and she throws the stuff
42:53
down the stairs and demand and tells them to leave, which it does eventually, but there's a moment
42:56
where he says, you know, there are some things that you never understand, you know. And every time
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that being my friend of mine watched that film, we've always wondered that, you know, what is it
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about the atmosphere in, we've heard that makes her suddenly seem to just turn and go, okay,
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I want you to go. We've always kind of wondered about that scene. I don't know if it is an imactic,
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but I was wondering when you're doing that scene, what was the ball process for why she suddenly
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gets something? Well, I'm sorry to say that we knew exactly what was going on, but my job with
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these things is to, we hand it over to you. I mean, for you to decide, I mean, when the film,
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when that film was shown at the New York Film Festival, and there was a Q&A immediately after
43:36
screening an old guy stood up and he said, Mr Lee said, will Johnny be dead within an hour of
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the end of the film? And I said, I don't know, it's up to you to decide, I'm finished at the film
43:47
ends at this point and I hand it over to you. So it is an imactic, but it's there for you to reflect
43:55
on. And when he goes back to her flat, that she's flat sitting, you assume, probably, that he's going
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to behave in a sexually demonstrative way like he has with other women, but he doesn't for whatever
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reason. I mean, we knew what the motivation was. And she obviously has trapped in all kinds of
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the stuff that she's been through. And there's a moment when she suddenly doesn't worry, he says,
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well, I'll just kick down on the sofa and suddenly there's a moment she doesn't want, you know,
44:27
for whatever that's about, she wants to decide that this is not going to work out and then
44:32
wants to get rid of it. And that's what happens. But it's for you to reflect on the possibilities,
44:38
not for me to explain it. Of course, yeah. And I think what's really fascinating about
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that scene is that in the structure of the film, after she sort of throws them out in a sense,
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and you ask them to leave and she's such a quiet, nice, you know, she has a nice face as he says,
44:53
a nice smile. And when a character like that tells Johnny to leave, and after that, all the stuff
44:58
happens after that is you're the mugging and the beating of the guy with the van and it just gets
45:02
worse for him after that. So for me, it was watching, I was thinking, oh, it's almost like a
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barometer as I get after this. Well, that's your own question. Yeah.
45:12
So I made one C-jumpun as I was one nice person. Hi, Mike. What advice would you give
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to young creators, especially given the present political side that we have in terms of arts
45:25
funding? And so what advice would you give to young people standing up? What would be
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there's one thing that you sort of try and instill upon them? Well, in two words,
45:37
never compromise. That is it, I mean, as I'm concerned, you know, that's the long and short of it.
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I mean, that says all, doesn't it? So that wraps up basically all the questions we have for you,
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Mike. You've been an absolute pleasure to listen to. We've just sat here and just been like, wow,
45:53
listen to what you have to say. Thank you. Thank you so much and good luck to everybody.
46:07
Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for listening to my chat with Mike Lee and Mariam Bailey.
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And stay tuned for more exciting interviews and guests coming soon and half the picture.