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Values-Aligned Investing Without Sacrificing Performance with Bill Davis | Financial Planner Search · Financial Planner Search

• Chase: All right. Bill Davis, thank you so much for joining me today. Been looking forward to it. bill davis: Thanks for having me, Chase. Chase: So let's jump right in, Bill. Tell us about stance and what you specialize in. bill davis: Sure. So Stance Capital is a asset management firm that I founded in 2016. and we are focused on what I would describe as values-aligned investing, which is a theme that we'll talk more about, but just at a very high level. values-aligned investing can be anything from incorporating climate risk into a investment portfolio or could be investors who are looking to align capital with say their faith or really kind of any other form of alignment and we have been practicing in this space as I said since twenty fourteen and actually even building products that predate the formation of our firm. we have excuse me since twenty sixteen and one of our products goes back to twenty fourteen. So we've been doing this for a while and I'm very happy to be on the show with you today. Chase: So I look took a look at your your website. Looks like you've founded and run companies in some very different worlds as well. How did how bill davis: Yeah. Chase: did your journey lead from, you know, pr let's say prior to those companies to where you are now to stance? bill davis: Yeah, I would say somewhat haphazardly. Chase: Yeah. bill davis: just, you know, making a bit of a joke. But I have, you know, like in my career, I started off in I would describe it as marketing data sciences and from there kind of got interested in energy and in particular renewable energy, and just really have been interested for a long time in what I would describe as you know, a world that is increasingly resource constrained, but And and so, you know, two-thirds of my professional career had nothing to do with financial services. And so I ended up running a venture in private equity-backed renewable energy company that I had founded for about seven years. And then I ultimately pivoted into financial services, and even that was kind of accidental. I got a phone call from a an old college friend and he was looking to launch his own asset management firm, wealth management firm. And I had a lot of experience launching businesses and he didn't have as much and he asked me if I would help him do that. And that was really kind of my entry into financial services. And that was really like in twenty ten. Chase: was that also your your entry into like what was the very, very first company that you launched? bill davis: It was called Database Marketing Corporation. And I did it when I was in my mid twenties. And you're not anywhere near old enough to even remember what that was, but it was like it was actually a thing, like about 20 years ago. but it was basically using information to make marketing more pinpointed, more effective. I mean, it's like database marketing then became data warehousing, then ultimately it sort of has grown into what now you would describe as a CRM. But it's basically like a system that stores information that's very sortable and selectable where you know, marketing efforts can be as as efficient as and as pinpointed as possible. Chase: It sounds like you are actually laying the foundation for what I do today. Cause that's as a marketer myself, I bill davis: Ha ha. Chase: deal with that data all the time in CRMs, so that's actually pretty cool to hear about. And then bill davis: Yeah, well, so the problem back then, the problem back then though was the opposite of the problem today. The problem back then was there was no information on anybody because nobody was in marketing databases. They were on mailing lists. And the whole idea was to move away from, you know, another concept that you don't you're not anywhere near old enough to remember called direct mail into kind of more information-driven marketing with really kind of a lack of information. Now the problem is the opposite. There's like too much There's too much data and trying to figure out what's meaningful out of all of that. The signal to noise ratio is very like hard in today's environment. So that's probably w where you're like trying to help people, I would imagine. Chase: That's fascinating. Yeah, well, originally I started as a as a copywriter. So I I do know a little bit about what you're talking about. But it sounds like where you are at now is very, very different from where you started. What is the what's the common thread that's connected between that where you started and pulled you toward building stance? bill davis: Yeah. So Chase, what I I guess w how I would answer that is that I think actually fundamentally every business has the exact same drivers. And so once you learn the you know, each business has its own sort of language and shorthand terminology that everybody inside of an industry will use. So like when you're on the outside, everything looks kind of complicated, but when you get right into it, every business has the exact same requirements. You need you need to Hire and retain good people, you need to make a product or a service that you stand behind. It needs to be delivered consistently at a fair price, you need to treat clients well. And if you do all of those things, chances are you're gonna be building a successful business. And so whether it was a kind of a marketing technology company that hired a bunch of software engineers. To a renewable energy company where we didn't have any software engineers, but we had chemical and mechanical engineers. Or what we're doing today, which is also does involve engineering, although it's more financial, where we've got, you know, statisticians and quants and people like that working, everything else is kind of the same. So it may seem like it's a big leap to go from, say, marketing sciences to being a portfolio manager and an asset management company. It's not as far as people think. And so one message to maybe people who are thinking about switching careers is don't be afraid because you know, life is nothing but a think at at best it's a it's a journey in learning and you're going to learn a lot of things if you don't do the same thing for forty straight years. Chase: And are these things that you help coach the advisors who work with you through as well? These fundamental business elements? bill davis: think a little bit like so you know I I I sort of queued up that we're focused on values aligned investing. Chase: Mm-hmm. bill davis: not everybody cares about that. And I would go so far to say is some people are really kind of like very vehemently opposed to the even the idea of it, right? And so what's what ought to be a fairly simple idea, which is that let's say you care about you're down in Mexico and you might care about sustainable oceans. that you should be able to like invest in whatever you care about. I mean, so that's kind of like a thing that I think is important. I also think advi one I think one area that we've been helpful to advisors is understanding that the their next generation of clients is going to be very different from their parents, say. And you know, I think most financial advisors have heard this this sort of, you know, I don't it's not really urban myth because I think it's actually pretty damn true that two-thirds of the time when assets pass from one generation to the next, the financial advisor gets fired in the process. Like I think most people kind of generally know it's hard to hold on to the kids, let's say, of your clients. However, what is motivating to the kids of your clients today is very different than when it was 15 or 20 years ago. There are all kinds of pressures that frankly their parents didn't have, whether it's student debt or you know, greater inequality in the world, greater inequality in in income in our country, social justice issues, environmental issues, pandemics, you know, just there's a lot of stuff that's kind of stacking up and These issues are very important to the next generation of investors. And this, by the way, transcends politics. This has nothing to do with being a Republican or a Democrat. It's a stark reality that people growing up in today's world are going to have it a little bit harder, I think, than their parents did. And it makes them more interested in personalizing their approach to investing. And so what I would say is that if it's true that The last generation of you know, and let's say advisors lost clients two-thirds of the time on generational wealth transfer. I would say if advisors aren't somewhat well spoken or versed on the idea of values aligned investing, that's gonna be more like 95% this time around. And so one of the things that I spend a lot of time talking to advisors about. is what the next generation of clients are actually thinking about, how they're expressing it, what they care about. because I think ultimately that equips advisors to win. Chase: Yeah, and speaking from from my side, we work with a lot of a lot of financial advisors and we also interview their clients as well. And I think in the past five years, I've only seen two financial advisors who actually specialize or have any kind of specialty in ESG investing in that sort of thing, or even values based. bill davis: Yeah. Yep. Chase: And those ones are the ones who are the most focused on the younger generation. Very, very few people want to work with the younger generation, actually. And only recently they're starting to really get into them. bill davis: Why is that? Yeah, that's I'm curious, why is it that they don't Chase: Because the younger generation doesn't have as much money as the older generation. bill davis: Well there's that, right? But they're gonna. Chase: Yes, they're going to. And now they're starting to come into their own. So bill davis: Yeah. Chase: maybe I th I throw that out there 'cause maybe that's something that's a little bit interesting to you as you're working through through this as well. bill davis: Well, one you know, like one question that this brings up is will the next generation of investors even want a financial advisor? Because there is so much DIY stuff or you know, these days, like and you know, you can have a Robin Hood account and people are trading crypto and everybody's a day trader. And do you need an advisor to do any of that? And I think the answer is like if you have money, yes. Like if you don't have any much money and you're just kind of playing around, no, you can do it yourself. But once you, you know, end up being the beneficiary, let's say, of of inherited money, or as you get farther along in your career and all this stuff starts to and you start to like generate successes and build up nest eggs, I think that's when people begin to realize how important it is. So I don't like I do think that the role of a financial advisor is changing, but I don't think it's ever really going to Chase: No, a big part of it is the relationship. People bill davis: Yeah. Chase: want a relationship with someone who they can talk to. They're not gonna use AI for everything that they're that they're trying to do. And especially for and what brings them to advisors in the younger generation is usually they are, you know, high level professionals in their in their fields and they're extremely busy. So there's two circumstances. One, they're extremely busy and they just don't have the bandwidth for it. Two, they suddenly receive a windfall. And they don't know what to do with it without losing a bunch of it to taxes. So describe the advisor who's a great fit to work with stance. Like who are they? What's usually going on in their practice? And when do they come to you? bill davis: they tend to be they tend to not be working for a big warehouse. And so for the benefit of your listeners, I mean I sort of define a warehouse, which is kind of an inside term as the Merrill Lynch's, Morgan Stanley's, you know, JP Morgan, Raymond James, LPL, that style of a firm, they tend to work more for independent wealth management firms or RIAs, registered investment advisors. I mean, that's kind of a broad statement, but I would say it's generally true. I would say that their practices tend to be, well, I would say that they they fall under one of three categories, and then I'll tell you which one is the most prevalent. But they either have built their practices around sustainable investing, the same way we've built our practice around that space, our values-aligned investing more broadly, or they are kind of open to it and they have some sub s some s segment or some subset of their client base that's interested in it, or they don't really care about it. They don't really have, they don't want to have anything to do with it, but their clients are actually pushing them toward it. And I would say it's kind of in that order and descending levels of interest. So probably 50 to 60% are firms that really, really believe in this and they've kind of built their practice largely around it. I think increasingly anybody that's got younger clients is gonna have to deal with it one way or the other because the clients are gonna ask them about it. They they either wanna be fossil free or they're looking for, you know, they wanna contribute to a donor advice fund and they don't know how to do it and they they need their help from the advisor figuring it out. I'd say the third category, we don't do a lot in that space because if somebody is just kind of casually checking the box with values aligned investing, chances are they're just going to go buy a BlackRock product or something that's not, you know, all that thoughtful, but it's cheap and it sort of, you know, passes the cursory level exam as the CSG or isn't it? But yeah, I would say most of the time we're working with people who already get it. Chase: So your site describes advisors hitting a point where the off-the-shelf solutions stop being enough. What does that moment actually look like for them? Like what's the client situation that pushes them into that? bill davis: Well, frequently it is a client situation. I mean, I think if they're if if they're purpose built around sustainable investing, that's different because then they're thinking about this stuff as much as we are. But if it's the client that's pushing them into it, the f I would say for the for advisors who don't know a lot about this space, they end up putting clients in stuff like, you know, as I said, BlackRock, State Street Vanguard product, which is where most of the assets are in the space, but it's where the least amount of auth authenticity is because really all those products are are just regular S P 500 products with you know five names excluded from consideration and slightly reweighted. So there's almost no difference between that and kind of just you know buying cheap data to begin with. I would say that When they start, when that's not enough for them, it's usually because the client says, Well, like this is a sustainable, this is supposed to be like a good product, but why is you know Palantir in this ETF or this, you know, product that you've put me into? Or why is Tesla in there? Or why are a handful of other companies in there? And usually if the client can't answer that question, they haven't probably spent enough time trying to understand. Excuse me, if the advisor can't answer that question, they probably haven't spent enough time understanding the level of authenticity that that client is looking for. And that's frequently when they start looking outside of kind of like just those big sort of plain vanilla product. And they might be looking to as an example, they might be looking for something that is a lot more has a lot more rigor around defining what constitutes good ESG behavior, let's say, or bad ESG behavior. Or it might they might be looking for an asset class exposure other than just kind of like a US large cap weighted strategy. I mean, one of the problems has nothing to do with what we do is that with the rise of index funds, it's created a very perverse sense of reward because now like If you and your 401k put more money into the market, you're actually just contributing to the disproportionate weighting of the S P five hundred. It's essentially forced buying, right? You're putting money, you've made a decision ahead of time to invest in a target date strategy that's pushing more money into the S P five hundred, but that's now rewarding the biggest players disproportionately. So you're making that problem of risk constant market. concentration even riskier. And so a lot of the times when we get called in, it's like, okay, I've already got like, I've got like some passive stuff that's cap weighted, that is, you know, I'm already 40% exposed to megacap names and AI names. What can you do in large cap that's actually counterbalancing that and reducing my risk? So I think that's where we tend to get involved. Chase: And so if you were to sum up what is, you know, what that trigger event is or what's keeping the advisors up at night, if you were to sum that up in one sentence, what do you think that would be? bill davis: Well, I think it's I think there's two sides to the same coin. It's fear of losing clients and fear of not winning them. because ultimately and it you know, advisors I think are motivated to grow the size of their book, to provide for their family, to, you know, meet their boss's requirement, to grow their firm if it's their own firm. And so if I mean, there are exceptions to that. And I would say probably the more prevalent Exceptions are going to be found in within firms that are focused on values aligned investing because they tend to have other values that they're pursuing other than just monetary goals. But I would say in general, advisors worry about losing business andor not retaining business andor not winning business. and that's where I think what we do actually is a very helpful driver of new business. and I think that's important because it's you know, most people aren't chasing the accounts of 80-year-olds around. They're chasing the accounts of people who are in the workforce who are making money, maybe just retiring, or maybe, you know, building their business and building their wealth. and increasingly those people have a point of view that they want to personalize through their investment holdings. And so that's why. I think this is helpful to both retain those clients and also grow new ones. Chase: And so where do your advisor and institutional clients typically come from? How do they find you? bill davis: we do a lot of podcasts. we I'm pretty active in like i in like in the mainstream media. So, you know, we haven't actually probably haven't even posted on our website, but like I don't know, about a month ago I was in New York and met with, you know, did live interviews with Bloomberg, NASDAQ, Yahoo Finance, Fox News, and three or four others, like all on the same day. So we Try and be thoughtful and have a media presence. We do a fair amount of social media, do we do a lot of podcasts? We do a little bit of writing and speak at conferences. And so that's generally where people bump into us or through referrals. Chase: And how has how's growth growth been, if I may ask? bill davis: It's actually, you know, Chase, it's actually been good. I mean, w w the ESG space, just to kind of pick one corner of values alignment, has been very much under attack for the last three years in the US, largely due to the current administration. For whatever reason, it's anti-science, it's anti-freedom to invest however one chooses to. and it's all these things which have definitely put a chill, I think, on the upward trajectory of the industry. You know, like in 2020 it was very much a hot dot. And by you know, the end of 2022, like people were kind of running from it. And but the reality is is nothing has really changed. We have actually, I think since the beginning of twenty so in the last three years our assets have tripled or actually quadrupled. so our assets have grown. We have found more interest in being thoughtful around investing in, you know, so like I tend to think of ESG as just kind of a a proxy for finding a well-managed company. Like ESG is a terrible name. Nobody knows what it means. It got politicized. It Chase: Yeah. bill davis: got equated with like woke capitalism and all this stuff. But at the end of the day, all I'm really doing is I'm building portfolios the same way everybody else does, or a lot of people do. Which is by looking at underlying fundamentals. But then I'm layering on top of that. Is this company a good company to work for? Does it treat its employees well? Does it, you know, is it well governed? does it think about the resources it uses and is it focused on trying to reduce its carbon footprint, its waste footprint, all these other things? We're looking at kind of like 25 or 30 different factors. They tend to be off balance sheet factors, but all it does for us is help build a composite of a company that's gonna be successful down the road because they're paying attention to these factors today. So yeah. Chase: One thing that stands out to me on on your website and your messaging is you have a line, it's something like measure what companies do, not what they say. What is your process how do you make sure that these companies that you're vetting actually follow what they say they do? bill davis: Okay, so that's a really, really good question. And the answer is kind of maybe trifold. the first thing is is that for the most part, the ESG industry has built itself up by scraping corporate sustainability reports that companies themselves issue and then scoring companies on the attributes that are outlined in those reports. And comparing them against other companies. And so, you know, a company ends up with a score of like 65 on something. that score is based on like what a company said it's doing, but companies are notoriously squirrely around some of these issues. They don't always report on, like, let's say if they're reporting on carbon emissions, frequently they will do something like not including as a part of that calculation. The emissions from their largest business unit. Or they will they will just sort of soft pedal the things that they're doing. And, you know, it got it used to be called sort of greenwashing, where they would try and pretend Chase: Mm-hmm. bill davis: that they were doing something and they really weren't doing quite as much as they said that they were doing. So the way in which we get at that is we don't buy ESG data from the typical. purveyors of that data. We sort of build it from the ground up ourselves. And we partner with a firm up in Canada called Corporate Knights Research. we and they are very focused on trying to get to the ground truth of what companies are actually doing as opposed to what they are saying they are doing. And so there are two material risk factors That for us tend to get a disproportionate weight in a lot of our scoring. And of course the scoring is dependent on the industry group of the economy because like if you're a bank, you have a different relationship to carbon emissions as a percentage of the whole economy as you would if you were, you know, a car company, let's say. And so, So we've basically built a taxonomy together with corporate nights where we can look at what companies are actually doing. So for example, if a company says, yes, we're going to be, you know, 50% carbon neutral by 2030, and yet they're an industrial company and they're not spending any money on RD, you know, leading towards green product and services revenue or CapEx. then we know that this is largely kind of a greenwashing exercise. So we have a way of kind of getting to better ground truth around a couple of issues. One is green product and services revenue, which we can attack from a bunch of different angles quantitatively, so it's not subjective. and then the other is what I would describe as clean capex or RD. Like we tend we tend to think that the leading indicator of what a company's going to do tomorrow. is how it spends money today. And so that's how we sort of get at what companies are really kind of ambitiously moving in this direction. Chase: And so when you find a company that does not fit your criteria based on your evaluations, what happens then? bill davis: We just don't invest in it. I mean, there are scenarios Chase: Nice, finally. bill davis: where we'll we will consider engaging with the company, but we are in most of our strategies, we are what I would describe as very quantitative, which means we might only own a company for I don't know, three months and then we might sell it. So it's hard to get into the business of doing deep engagement with a company. You can't mean you really can't do it if you're not a shareholder. And if we're not going be a shareholder in December, what's the point in of starting an engagement today? So we do a little bit of deep company engagement as a firm, but mostly what we are doing is trying to invest at the intersection of good ESG sort of risk profile and good underlying fundamentals. And and then we vote proxies in a very responsible manner. And so we think one of the greatest ways to influence a company's behavior is to exercise shareholder rights to vote for members of the board, to vote for executive compensation, to vote for things that appear on during the annual general meeting and you know proxy process. and then ultimately if If there's a company that we own and we're not affecting it through proxy voting, and and let's say we are engaging with that company as a part of a group effort and we're not seeing what we want to see from an engagement standpoint, then we could conceivable conceivably just simply not own it moving forward. But divesting is sort of the last sort of recourse. That's the last thing we're interested in doing. We would much rather just simply find good companies. help make them better and help support them as investors. Chase: So where do you see stance in the next one to three years? And is there anything standing in your way? Any current challenges to getting to where you want to go currently? bill davis: Yeah, I think I think importantly, the financial services industry is really geared around being really, really big. And ultimately that serves clients w and clients well in one respect, which is that they get kind of cheap product exposure. You know, you could now buy a, you know, 20 years ago, if you wanted to buy an S P mutual fund, it probably cost you 100 basis points or 1% to be in that mutual fund. Now you can probably find it for five basis points or less that exact same product. So I think number one, the the hardest part about being a boutique manager is simply competing against the big managers because we don't have the marketing resources. We can't be launching products at five basis points, all of that stuff. So it gives us the opportunity to be more creative and to create the kind of products that clients are actually interested in, looking for, that are just sort of different from what's kind of coming out of the big asset management factories. So that really is the hardest part, I think, is just, you know, competing against scale is is difficult. Chase: And so when when an advisor first decides to come and work with you, I think I bill davis: Mm-hmm. Chase: think your site says you start with a thirty minute conversation. What happens in the first conversation? What happens after? What happens over the course of your relationship with them from their perspective? bill davis: I mean, I think they're all different. We have advisors who come to us for education and then they just, you know, we have ETFs. I'm not going to mention any of our products for compliance reasons, but your viewers or listeners can go on our website and get connected to them. So in some cases, advisors will come to us and they'll say, What is it about this product that makes it worthwhile for me to consider in my client accounts? And that'll typically turn into a conversation where we'll try and understand what other kinds of products they're also using in the client accounts to sort of scratch the itch that I described that sort of values like you know that values lensed investing process and that'll frequently result in us doing an analysis for them where we'll basically say well you own this, this and this if if 20% of what you own, if you sold a little bit of that and you bought 20% of this product, you'd actually have better diversification in your client account. You would you would you would not have the concentration risk that you currently have. You'd have more mid-cap exposure. You'd do better in down markets based on historical, you know, behaviors. And then that that advisor might just go. Buy an ETF for the client. I'll never hear from again. I'll never know that they bought it because you know, if we own an ETF, we don't you could, Chase, you could own our ETF and I wouldn't know it necessarily, right? So a lot of what we do is educational. We in some cases advisors come to us and they say, Listen, I've got a family and it's a multi, and this has happened, it's a multi-generational family. the kids are just now starting to kind of like flex. on how they, you know, want these funds invested. And I'm wondering, would you be willing to kind of like do a little sort of educational thing for me and my family client? Or would you be willing to do kind of a lunch and learn thing, like a webinar will I bring twenty clients and prospects and you can talk about what we do? And the answer is yes, we do a lot of both of those things. Chase: And so for an advisor who has exactly the type of client you described here, you know, very values driven, they want to make sure that their portfolio aligns with with who they are as a person. For one of those advisors, if they want to get connected with you and they want to look at working with you, what should they do next? Where should they go? bill davis: Yeah, they should just reach out on our website. it's www.stancecap.com and I'm not sure where it is on there because I've never actually sent myself an email, but there is a way to talk to us through that. And we either myself or my partners get back to the advisor almost always the same day. I would also say that we're we're a we're a small firm and we're partner led. So We're not going to push advisors down three layers to, you know, junior people who are gonna have a hard time answering their questions. We're usually able to answer questions directly. And as I said, in some cases, the answer might be as simple as, hey, go check out this ETF, or I'll send you information about the ETF, and if you like it, you should buy it. In other cases, that advisor. Let's say they might be on Schwab as a custodian platform and for whatever reason their client doesn't want to be in an ETF. They like to see the 80 positions or whatever they're in the portfolio. so they might want to partner around a separate account version of the strategy and we can help them do that. So we through, you know, we're like we're on the Schwab's platform and we can work with them. So that we have access to that one client account and we can go in and trade in it. And that's another way that we work with advisors. And then I would say there's a third way, which gets a little bit technical, but I'm gonna just lay it out there anyway. most advisors now have clients who have concentrated position risk problems. and it's as simple as this the market has run up in an extraordinarily narrow way. over the last three years where like if you bought NVIDIA and, you know, a handful of these other whether it's cloud based AI companies or kind of just Mag Seven in general companies four or five years ago, you now have a scary portfolio because it while it is probably quite big and let's say you don't really want to sell stuff and pay taxes on it, there's no really easy way to get out of those positions. Other than waiting for them to fall apart and then selling them, in which case you would have paid less taxes, but you'd also have less left over. And so we managed to quite literally stumble into a solution to this problem about five years ago. We were getting ready to launch an ETF, and a friend of our firm who we were working with said, you know, there's this thing called a section 351 exchange. It's like IRS code. And what essentially it means is under certain circumstances, an investor through their advisor could contribute in-kind positions like NVIDIA, Palantir, you know, individual equity positions to the launch of the ETF, get back shares of the ETF, and not have that be a taxable event. And in the process, they would have gone from, let's say, owning 15 positions to an ETF that might own 100. So they've diversified away from concentrated position risk. they've done it without paying a capital gain. and in the case of advisors, so in the case of end clients, this has been very interesting. In the case of advisors, it's also interesting because it's helping them solve a client problem. and also it helps them grow assets, right? Because in some cases, those There might have been held away assets in a brokerage account that were never given to the advisor because, like, what's the point of giving the advisor the assets if they can't sell the positions because of the capital gain thing? So it unlocks, I think, more ways for advisors to be helpful, more ways for clients to become less concentrated at a time when the market's never been more concentrated. And it's kind of a win win for everybody. Chase: Bill, this has been a very eye-opening conversation. It's not it's something that I certainly don't hear talked about a lot, which is almost kind of surprising bill davis: Yeah. Chase: because I work in in this industry as well. But this has been great. Is there anything you'd that I haven't asked you that I should have, anything else you'd like to mention before we jump off here? bill davis: Yeah, I guess the only thing I would say is that getting back to sort of what we do for a living, which is values based work, I think there's there's just a lot of there's a lot of noise about it. And really I think investors who care about something need to understand that it is possible to support the thing you care about through your money without sacrificing performance. And anybody that tells you otherwise has got, you know. Is it's just kind of performative theater at this point. So I think like Chase: Mm-hmm. bill davis: the idea of values-based investing isn't going away. The idea of climate risk as an example is also not going away. And companies are in fact changing their behaviors to to become more responsible to the planet and to the people on it. and so this is a very enduring theme that I think is going to reward investors. for many years to come. And yeah, and that's it. And thank you for having me on. Chase: Thank you, Bill.