Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Carl Teichrib: Burning Man, ‘Coexist,’ Religious Pluralism vs. Exclusivity Of Christ

Transcript

Carl Teichrib: Burning Man, ‘Coexist,’ Religious Pluralism vs. Exclusivity Of Christ · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:00
  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
• 0:10
  defending biblical Christianity.
• 0:13
  No topic, off limits.
• 0:16
  And now, here's your host, David Fierazzo.
• 0:19
  Hey, friends, Merry Christmas season.
• 0:22
  Thank you so much for sticking with us here and sharing the show.
• 0:25
  We appreciate you guys.
• 0:27
  I've got a treat for you today.
• 0:28
  Karl Taikrib, man, we're going to talk about his book, Game of Gods, and talk about burning man.
• 0:34
  If you've ever heard of that, we're going to get into that because he goes there so you don't have to.
• 0:38
  Anyway, Karl is a Canadian based researcher, writer, lecturer, focusing on the paradigm shift,
• 0:44
  sweeping the Western world, including the challenges and opportunities faced by Christians.
• 0:49
  And man, he's done a lot of writing and research over the years.
• 0:52
  And I'm just thankful to have him on the show today.
• 0:55
  Karl Taikrib, welcome to World View Matters, brother.
• 0:58
  Hey, David, this is a real pleasure.
• 0:59
  Thank you for having me on the program.
• 1:01
  Hey, good to connect with you and see you this time.
• 1:04
  And by the way, if you guys are seeing a video blip, we're blaming that on Justin Trudeau.
• 1:08
  Just, so just, you know, Karl's from Canada.
• 1:12
  But anyway, Karl, before we get into a little bit about your book and burning man,
• 1:17
  by the way, your website, forcingchange.org, what have you been doing in the last many months?
• 1:23
  And what have you been doing?
• 1:24
  Are you writing?
• 1:25
  Are you traveling?
• 1:26
  Speaking.
• 1:27
  You know, it's a bit of a combination of all of that, David.
• 1:31
  This summer, I was at the Parliament of World Religions.
• 1:33
  And then immediately after I delivered some lectures to the Brienne Call, their conference.
• 1:40
  And then immediately when that was wrapped up, I was at Burning Man.
• 1:44
  Earlier in the summer, I was at a regional burn.
• 1:47
  And presently, I'm wrestling a little bit with a potential writing project for another
• 1:52
  book.
• 1:53
  But that's, it's one of those things where you understand that completely.
• 1:57
  You've been through that process a number of times yourself, so you understand the preliminary
• 2:02
  work that was involved and just trying to kind of set the tone and figure out what direction
• 2:07
  you want to take it.
• 2:08
  But I'm thinking along the lines of interfaithism because it's such a relevant and important
• 2:13
  subject.
• 2:14
  I'm one of the few Christian researchers that have attended a number of interfaith events,
• 2:19
  including four of the parliaments now.
• 2:21
  That includes the virtual parliament.
• 2:23
  So I'm able to kind of bring some perspectives in that I think would be important for us to
• 2:28
  be able to wrestle through.
• 2:30
  And you know, ironically with that, I'm maybe not ironically, a dovetails also with
• 2:34
  Burning Man, which is an inter religious type of experience.
• 2:37
  It is secular and sacred.
• 2:40
  It is spiritual and atheistic all at the same time.
• 2:44
  It's a blend of so much.
• 2:47
  And so you can write a whole different book on that.
• 2:51
  Yeah.
• 2:52
  Well, mentioning your book, I want to mention my book, first of all, 240 pages, Assault
• 2:56
  on the Image of God, Carl Tykrib, Game of Gods, and by the way, you can get that on Amazon.
• 3:03
  Game of Gods is how many pages?
• 3:07
  I think with the index 570, and that does not include the bibliography, if you want to tackle
• 3:13
  the bibliography, you have to go to Game of Gods.ca and read excerpts and check it out
• 3:18
  that way too.
• 3:19
  Yeah.
• 3:20
  Game of Gods.ca.
• 3:21
  It's just a massive volume.
• 3:23
  I mean, I think it's about this thick.
• 3:26
  And so I just wanted to compare mine, mine is about a third, maybe.
• 3:30
  But it's good material nonetheless.
• 3:31
  But man, you've been researching and writing for so many years.
• 3:34
  And that book, Game of Gods, was a culmination of all the work that you had been doing.
• 3:39
  So tell us a little bit about Game of Gods and the work that you put into that.
• 3:44
  Oh, absolutely.
• 3:45
  And you're right.
• 3:46
  It is a culmination of decades of research work.
• 3:49
  I've been doing this full time since 1997, from 97 to 2001.
• 3:54
  I was the director of research for Gary Cause Ministry.
• 3:56
  I still do work for Gary as well.
• 4:00
  So in any respect, David, the book was a culmination of that research, that early research and
• 4:06
  bringing it, projecting it right up until the last few years.
• 4:10
  Of course, the book was published before COVID.
• 4:14
  But really, it's a volume that stands at the crossroads of where global governance,
• 4:20
  interfaithism, transhumanism, and what would be considered transformational culture, including
• 4:26
  new religious movements.
• 4:28
  And I dress a little bit with Wicca and witchcraft in it as well because that's kind of all part
• 4:34
  in parcel of this new paradigm shift.
• 4:36
  And in many respects, the book becomes a text or a reference work that allows us to stand
• 4:43
  at the crossroads where all of those points are converging and be able to wrestle through
• 4:47
  it and find a Christian response to some of the challenges of our day.
• 4:52
  So Carl Tykrib, I want to get to the Parliament of World Religions.
• 4:55
  But I love on the description over at Amazon on the page for Game of Gods.
• 5:01
  The very last line is this and you can expound on this a little bit.
• 5:04
  Humanity has three great desires to be as God, to be masters of meaning and destiny, and
• 5:11
  to build heaven on earth.
• 5:14
  This is that story.
• 5:16
  So elaborate just a little bit more about that because that, I think, sums up so well.
• 5:20
  It's fascinating.
• 5:21
  It really pulls out of the genitive, probably the genesis narrative of, first of all, our
• 5:29
  fall, man deciding to be as God.
• 5:32
  And then as we look now to see how this projects in terms of a collective or unified vision,
• 5:39
  then man is consistently saying, we will build our own utopia, we will build our own tower,
• 5:44
  we will build our babble again.
• 5:46
  And so the book explores those elements, this sense of me as an individual, but more
• 5:53
  than that, the collective, the we, affirming our own divinity, and then expanding on
• 6:01
  that as we consider the trajectory of history, how mankind is designed to be able to kingdom
• 6:07
  of heaven on earth.
• 6:08
  And we're going to design it in our own way, in our own fashion, and it will project
• 6:13
  our ideas as we push away from Jesus Christ as we say, no, we will, we will find our own
• 6:20
  purpose, we will find our own meaning.
• 6:22
  Now we will be, we will be the masters of our own destiny, and we've been collectively
• 6:28
  dated for as you know, since the fall, but, but we just seem to be ramping it up, and
• 6:33
  it comes from all these different angles, the technological, the political, the religious,
• 6:38
  the cultural, it's there.
• 6:40
  Yep, absolutely.
• 6:41
  So talk to us a little bit about the Parliament of World Religions before we get to burning
• 6:46
  man.
• 6:47
  I think we'll do that in the second half of the show.
• 6:49
  But the Parliament of World Religions, when I hear that, I've never been, I've heard
• 6:52
  them explain.
• 6:53
  And I think we had talked about this on the former podcast, and man, you go there and
• 6:59
  you get all this information, and it must be, to some degree, overwhelming, unless someone
• 7:04
  like yourself that has been researching this for so many years, because I just think
• 7:08
  religious pluralism, syncretism, I think new age, I think occult.
• 7:12
  So tell us about this, or ecumenism, the Parliament of World Religions, Carl, and some takeaways
• 7:18
  for those that aren't familiar with it.
• 7:20
  You just nailed it all right there, David.
• 7:22
  It really is all of what you just described.
• 7:24
  So it is pluralistic.
• 7:25
  It is where the religions of the world converge, primarily to discuss points of action, where
• 7:32
  religions can say, okay, we can keep our diversities, our diversity of spiritual practices and religious
• 7:38
  beliefs, but we will all work together in common because we're all essentially one.
• 7:46
  That becomes the theme or the way of thinking.
• 7:50
  And then there's a lot of joint action, let's say, on climate change, on social justice
• 7:57
  issues, on various narratives, the narratives that we are constantly being bombarded with.
• 8:02
  And many respects, the Parliament of World Religions is a gathering place of the majority of
• 8:08
  the world's major religions so that there is a commonality, a common ethic, a common action
• 8:14
  plan.
• 8:15
  And of course, that being the case, the exclusivity of Jesus Christ is anathema, that is contradictory,
• 8:22
  and that is openly acknowledged in some of the settings I've been in.
• 8:26
  So it's interesting as you consider the language, how it's changed over the years in the
• 8:31
  interfaith movement.
• 8:33
  Because I've been going to interfaith events since before the millennium, I can tell you
• 8:37
  the trajectories have been this.
• 8:40
  We've been called in the past fundamentalists, okay?
• 8:43
  We can work with that.
• 8:44
  We can, there's still a point of reference.
• 8:47
  And then we were, then we were called exclusivists, okay?
• 8:50
  Again, I've got no issues with that.
• 8:53
  It still allows us some room to have some conversation.
• 8:56
  And then we became extremists and I know it's getting a little more radical than a 2018,
• 9:02
  the Parliament in Toronto, we were separatists, which was very interesting how that language
• 9:09
  would begin to shift.
• 9:10
  And this one, Evangelicals and those who hold to the exclusive truth claim of Jesus Christ,
• 9:16
  we were now being considered authoritarians.
• 9:20
  And this year's theme in Chicago, not sure if your audience can see it, was occult conscience
• 9:28
  defending freedom and human rights.
• 9:30
  And so Evangelical Christians were consistently linked up with authoritarian political action.
• 9:37
  We were deemed to be a danger in that respect.
• 9:41
  And so everybody's allowed at the table, it seems, if you at least agree upon their narrative,
• 9:48
  but if you, if you're from the religious conservative Evangelical right, and you believe in individual
• 9:55
  freedom and liberty, that you believe that Jesus Christ is exclusive and that there is
• 9:59
  a role for independent sovereign nation states, well, you're not exactly a global player.
• 10:06
  Yeah, we're seeing a lot of that today, we're seeing the narratives change, how they're framing
• 10:11
  those who believe in God, the one God, Jesus Christ, the only true living God, and even what they're
• 10:17
  calling us in America and Christian nationalists or domestic terrorists, if if you're political
• 10:24
  or patriotic, Carl, so what you're saying is that the Parliament of rural religions,
• 10:28
  couple of bumper stickers you might see would be save the planet or coexist, would those be pretty
• 10:33
  absolutely. Oh, it's along those lines. So just to give your audience a sense of what actually
• 10:40
  transpires, there are planaries, there's workshops, there's panel discussions, and you have, at this
• 10:46
  event, roughly at the Chicago parliament, this summer, I believe 6500 to 7000 people, when I was at
• 10:53
  the 2015 parliament in Salt Lake City, you had roughly 10,000 religious leaders, but it's not just
• 10:59
  religious leaders, you have United Nations officials, you have individuals representing governments,
• 11:06
  in fact, this year, the closing, the closing plenary had a special video linkage with Nancy Pelosi,
• 11:12
  so it gives you a sense of just the politics that's involved. It's, you know, the opening session,
• 11:18
  we had a special video linkage with the UN Secretary General, and we had the mayor of Chicago,
• 11:24
  personally, there to give us greetings. It's, it's a big event, and it sets the tone, it sets
• 11:31
  the tone for progressive religious action. It really is the engine for progressive religions,
• 11:37
  and in terms of progressive Christianity, that is a place that really kind of springboards and
• 11:43
  energizes progressive Christianity, placing it in a broader religious global framework.
• 11:51
  What you just said, it sounds like an oxymoron, progressive Christianity, you might want to say a
• 11:55
  liberal Christianity, or Marxist Christianity, or social justice Christianity, but I think
• 12:02
  our viewers understand that these people have wavered from the true biblical faith and sound
• 12:08
  doctrine, but I'm speaking with author Carl Taikrib, and his book is Game of Gods, you can find
• 12:14
  more about Carl on his website, ForcingChange.org. We're going to give a shout out to Harbinger's Daily,
• 12:22
  and we will be right back on World View Matters. Today's show is brought to you by Harbinger's Daily.
• 12:27
  The world news biblically understood. Stay informed at Harbinger's Daily.com.
• 12:35
  Hey friends, I want to invite you to tune in live Thursday, December 14. We're going to be doing a
• 12:41
  live Q&A on World View Matters. Thursday, the 14th at 1 p.m. Central time, 1 p.m.
• 12:49
  as many of you that can tune in and join us. If you have any questions, comments, guests that you
• 12:55
  would like to suggest for the program. We'll talk about some of the guests we've had, some of the
• 13:00
  topics. It'll just be really free-flowing and kind of talk about Christmas as well. Again, Thursday,
• 13:06
  the 14th at 1 p.m. We're doing a live World View Matters.
• 13:18
  Okay, before we shift gears and talk about Burning Man, actually I've got one more question for
• 13:23
  Carl on the Parliament of World Religions. I want to mention that we've got our fundraiser going on
• 13:28
  between now and Christmas. You can get this nifty mug that says World View Matters on one side and
• 13:33
  the other side keep speaking the truth about things that matter that's kind of like my tag line.
• 13:38
  You can support the production costs and support the show by a one-time donation of anything over
• 13:43
  $200 or support us $25 a month if you're able to afford that. We understand that many are not
• 13:50
  and we just appreciate your prayers and sharing. That's one of the biggest things you can do is share
• 13:56
  on social media because we're somewhat censored and shadow banned, some of the topics that we
• 14:00
  discuss, you know, it's not quite popular all the time. So anyway, you can also subscribe
• 14:05
  worldviewmatters.tv. So we appreciate that and we thank you for your support. Carl Taikrib,
• 14:11
  author of Game of Gods. One more question about the Parliament of World Religions. Carl,
• 14:16
  isn't it too simplistic to say that a goal of these leaders would be to somehow find a way to put
• 14:24
  doctrine aside and work together and kind of they want to really control society but they're
• 14:31
  thinking okay I want to make the world a better place but that's a little naive isn't it?
• 14:36
  That is a little bit naive yes and you're correct they do push doctrine aside in fact that is
• 14:41
  something that is discussed I mean it's a place where you're not going to be making a conversation
• 14:47
  around or at least they are not going to be making a conversation around exclusive truth claims
• 14:51
  because that's that separates and this is all about unity right it's all about unity and they're
• 14:58
  doing it within within the parameter or within that context of global unification so there's a lot
• 15:04
  of representative representative and talk about global governance issues around global governance
• 15:12
  this is a one world perspective that's what it boils down to what's interesting though David is
• 15:18
  there's a handful of us this year I think we had 12 people who from different walks of life within
• 15:25
  the Christian faith coming together and basically doing gorilla evangelism looking for those
• 15:30
  opportunities to have conversations for Jesus Christ right in right in the middle of the Parliament
• 15:36
  of World Religions and you know you can have those conversations there which is really really a
• 15:43
  cool thing I mean everybody thinks all right you know this is this is anathema to evangelical
• 15:48
  Christianity and the message of Jesus Christ being the only way and while absolutely within the
• 15:55
  broader agenda it is one-on-one you can have you can self-conversations in fact we had some great
• 16:01
  conversations where we could share the gospel and just compare contrast with the gospel message says
• 16:08
  to what we were seeing at the parliament that's great that there's still a little bit of tolerance
• 16:12
  yet for the true gospel Carl let's let's move on to burning man now for those of our viewers
• 16:19
  who have never heard of this what is the burning man festival I mean why does it attract so many
• 16:27
  people and what are the worldview implications here when it comes to burning man
• 16:33
  well to describe and explain burning man in the handful of men's we have is pretty
• 16:39
  low possible but that's okay so burning man is a it's considered a festival but it's really it's
• 16:45
  more than that it's a community it's a gathering and it's it really is built around a city a city
• 16:51
  that rises out of the dust of the northern Nevada desert known as a black rock desert and once each
• 16:58
  year a city is constructed a city of roughly 75 to 80,000 people and it's so it's it's very large
• 17:06
  I mean this is literally a city wow and and so the world comes together for roughly eight days
• 17:14
  in the black rock dust and it's it becomes an umbrella event for hundreds and even thousands of
• 17:21
  other events that are taking place at the same time so there are workshops and curriculums you can
• 17:27
  go and listen to panel discussions if you want it is well known of course for the party atmosphere
• 17:33
  because yes it is a global party and it is literally the global party and so you have a very
• 17:41
  strong party atmosphere it is essential it is very a very sexually charged event in many
• 17:48
  respects and yet at the same time it's also very serious so you can go to workshops and I had
• 17:55
  done this workshops on everything from cryptocurrency global governance agenda 2030
• 18:02
  this is this is where the world comes together in terms of leadership in terms of influencers
• 18:09
  they they kind of shed the mask shed the you know the the structures of of how do I say this the
• 18:18
  the more the rigid structures of habitat to work through let's say a a very detailed oriented
• 18:24
  type of type of structure like at the United Nations it's very cut and dry here's what you can do
• 18:28
  here's what you can't do here it's more open it's more relaxed it's more of a free flow
• 18:33
  conversation and so this is where the world is gathering it's also silicone valleys event
• 18:39
  this is where Google goes this is where Tesla's people go this is this is really silicone valleys
• 18:47
  gathering once a year where they explore art and creativity where they do a lot of networking
• 18:53
  and let their hair down and yet at the same time trying to connect into something spiritual there's
• 18:58
  a temple a large temple um this year the temple was was really an an incredible structure in terms
• 19:05
  of the architecture and then of course at the end of the event in the reason it's called burning
• 19:10
  man is because they burn the central effigy there's a man literally a figure of a man that stands
• 19:17
  in the middle of the city all the streets point to the radiating streets all point to the man
• 19:23
  and then on saturday they burn the man and then on sunday they burn the temple so an interesting
• 19:29
  quarry an interesting connecting point between the parliament world religions and this year's
• 19:33
  burning man one of the workshops that I attended at the parliament this year was asking the question
• 19:40
  how do we integrate psychedelics and psychedelic spirituality within seminaries and chaplaincy
• 19:46
  services how do we bring psychedelics into the christian fold at an institutional level because
• 19:52
  there's a this is gonna sound crazy and I know a lot of christians might go this is bizarre and you're
• 19:57
  right but there is a psychedelic renaissance that's taking place lsd ayahuasca psilocybin's magic
• 20:08
  mushrooms it's all there and that's deeply integrated is inside of silicon valley but it's also
• 20:14
  becoming projected into the christian the the christian community as well and so at the parliament
• 20:21
  we had Richard roar the christian mystic along with others describing how to integrate psychedelics
• 20:27
  into christianity a week and a half later i'm at burning man and i'm at a progressive christian
• 20:34
  camp that is engaging on in a workshop entitled jesus in psychedelics so on the one hand oh yeah so on
• 20:43
  the one hand on the one hand at the parliament you have the the the the very formal discussion and
• 20:50
  that's the word i was thinking about later you have the very formal discussion of how to
• 20:55
  bridge psychedelic spirituality into mainline christianity into into the institutional aspects of
• 21:02
  christianity and then at burning man it was a personal justification as the moderator was a
• 21:09
  Lutheran pastor we had Methodist ministers we had former and current pastors and about 50
• 21:16
  people in in the room that come from various christian denominations and some that were non-Christian
• 21:22
  but the majority would have claimed some christian affiliation as as they were now individually
• 21:29
  justifying how psychedelics could be used to help find and experience a deeper sense of Jesus
• 21:35
  within how they can now feel a godly love how it would give them a new sense of understanding
• 21:43
  of scripture how they can now feel the presence of god within and psychedelics was being this
• 21:51
  this gateway to experience and to feel divine within yourself and of course brought you know David
• 22:00
  from a worldview position and i write about this in game of gods i write about how psychedelics
• 22:05
  is is in many respects a cultural changer because it changes a person's worldview perspective
• 22:15
  and that's it's really that that's actually the the real implications of the of the of the
• 22:22
  Renaissance of psychedelics i've been to a number of psychedelic workshops i've been to a couple
• 22:27
  of smaller conferences virtual conferences on the topic but at burning man when you're sitting
• 22:32
  there listening to the luminaries of the psychedelic culture to say that look marijuana is a gateway
• 22:38
  but not gateway in terms of what you're thinking it's a gateway in that it will legalize the next step
• 22:43
  which is psilocybin's or magic mushrooms and then eventually other substances with the hope being
• 22:51
  that we can now spiritually evolve because our worldview has changed so radically through the
• 22:57
  experiences psychedelics so that was some of those are some of the conversations David that
• 23:02
  takes place at burning man and this year no exception especially with especially with the workshop
• 23:09
  Jesus and psychedelics that's why i said earlier you know people like Carl Taikrib go to burning man
• 23:15
  so you don't have to um Carl i wanted to ask you where does the money come from for such a
• 23:22
  they're they build essentially a city um if you can shorten that answer maybe because uh
• 23:29
  because i also when you said psychedelics i'm thinking okay when you wrote about that in the game
• 23:32
  of gods i'm thinking well didn't the Beatles go on this explorative trip to was in India and they
• 23:37
  were with the maharishi and they were doing lsd or whatever psychedelics and that came to america
• 23:43
  shortly after that so whatever one you want to tackle touch on whatever one you want to go with
• 23:48
  well when you ask about the money just really quickly this might blow some people away
• 23:53
  yes you have ticket you have a ticket price and the tickets will help pay for like the port of
• 23:57
  parties the other infrastructure that's necessary but all the rest of it david from the artwork
• 24:02
  to the main camps that are structured uh for the most part it's done voluntarily
• 24:08
  it's a city that's built by volunteers wow so we're talking we're talking now millions of dollars
• 24:15
  right oh absolutely oh oh you have art pieces uh you you have you have mutant art called mutant
• 24:21
  vehicles or massive art vehicles uh in fact one famous one called mine warrior which is built
• 24:27
  in mexico city and uh comes up to to the to the desert and this year ironically it ended up
• 24:32
  actually burning on the highway burned on the road somewhere but that vehicle that vehicle itself
• 24:38
  was rumored to be in a three point five million dollar mark so you're not talking about a small this
• 24:44
  is not a small group of you know everybody thinks about your hippies no hippies no no no no no this is
• 24:50
  this is high end stuff wow fascinating so i know we've got a limited amount of time but um i
• 24:57
  couldn't help but think of the beetles when they were searching perhaps they were searching for the
• 25:02
  spiritual using psychedelics whatever they were using and uh they went and they they i think that's
• 25:08
  how uh transcendental meditation got going and that eventually made it to america and became
• 25:14
  popularized um share a little bit about that carl and just people general search go ahead
• 25:20
  yeah well that you're just describing david the sixies in the early seventies and that
• 25:25
  that is this that this blending of psychedelics eastern spirituality the search for the higher self
• 25:32
  you know and it jump starts a new age movement but in in not just in manuscripts in every respect
• 25:39
  we just describe burning man because the burning man event the community the city
• 25:45
  is culturally spiritually aligned with what took place in the sixies and seventies in many ways
• 25:50
  is just simply the domino effect and there's no i mean when you're going into their own literature
• 25:55
  they don't hide that they don't they don't push that away they recognize that this is indeed
• 25:59
  just simply a continuation of that earlier religious spiritual psychedelic revolution
• 26:08
  that shook western civilization and we're now living in the the the the the continual shaking
• 26:17
  of that earthquake wow fascinating man's search for meaning for to be closer to god to find out
• 26:25
  who god is and all these different things and um the gospel is pretty simple isn't it carl and
• 26:31
  that and that we just believe and have faith in the one true god and uh just Jesus Christ the way
• 26:39
  that you're very exclusive and it seems to all these other things you know yes and here's
• 26:45
  here's a i know we only have a few seconds left left david but here's a good a good point um
• 26:50
  even a burning man you can present the gospel in one situation one of the people who
• 26:55
  who are who's with our team with our cap he gives a girl across that he makes he's a a blacksmith
• 27:00
  his name is brine he gives a girl across and says trust Jesus and she breaks and the tears poured
• 27:08
  on her face as she clutches his arm and takes across so Jesus Christ is i mean he's exclusive
• 27:16
  but he's inclusive and that he wants all to come to him it is and that's that's the interesting
• 27:23
  interesting dichotomy there because he is the way the truth in the life no one comes to the
• 27:28
  father except through him but at the same time whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will
• 27:32
  be saved god so love the world that he gave his son that's what we're celebrating at christmas
• 27:37
  the word became flesh at the perfect time god sent his son into those perfect circumstances
• 27:45
  politically spiritually uh in every other way and uh here we have christmas to celebrate and
• 27:51
  carl we're gonna have to continue this conversation because i love your work and it's
• 27:55
  fascinating to me but i think we can see more and more what's happening in the world and the
• 27:59
  growth of some of these religions and when you said unity by the way what they really want is
• 28:04
  uniformity uh you right they they they and we are not to conform to the world but unity is one
• 28:10
  thing to be continued brother uh thanks for your time carl tycrive forcing change dot oh rg god bless
• 28:17
  you and merry christmas brother merry christmas thank you david yep lord willing we'll do this again soon
• 28:22
  all right uh guys tomorrow scott shara will be on the program and uh can't wait to get to what he has
• 28:28
  the share and also uh carl Kirby has a new book out we'll talk to him he's with reasons for hope
• 28:34
  thank you guys again and god bless you as always keep speaking the truth about things that matter
• 28:47
  you