Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Embracing Self Love At Every Size with Sarah Nicole Landry (The Birds Papaya)

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Embracing Self Love At Every Size with Sarah Nicole Landry (The Birds Papaya) · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:08
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
0:12
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
0:17
Speaker 1: This is pretty smart. It feels like we're living in
0:21
Speaker 1: the age for body positivity right now. We're surrounded by
0:25
Speaker 1: messages of inclusiveness and individuality, and at the same time,
0:30
Speaker 1: we're still flooded with filters, photoshop, and unattainable standards of beauty,
0:38
Speaker 1: with social media testing the little grace many of us
0:41
Speaker 1: are willing to allow ourselves.
0:43
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to Sarah Nicole Landry.
0:46
Speaker 1: She's a hugely successful body positive advocate, digital creator, and
0:51
Speaker 1: podcaster known as the Bird's Papaya.
0:54
Speaker 2: She has more than two million Instagram followers and one
0:58
Speaker 2: of the most popular body positive accounts on social media.
1:01
Speaker 2: When she was twenty nine years old, Sarah lost more
1:04
Speaker 2: than one hundred pounds, but her transformation did not bring
1:08
Speaker 2: her happiness.
1:10
Speaker 1: It actually made her miserable. Four years later, Sarah decided
1:14
Speaker 1: enough was enough and she set out on a self
1:17
Speaker 1: love mission that wasn't about a number on a scale. Okay,
1:26
Speaker 1: so Sarah, I listened to all of the podcasts, not
1:30
Speaker 1: all the most of the podcasts you've done with other people.
1:33
Speaker 1: And one of the things I was so taken by
1:36
Speaker 1: is that you can truly talk to anybody. Oh yeah,
1:40
Speaker 1: wild skill.
1:41
Speaker 3: I am a naturally curious person. And I also, I
1:47
Speaker 3: think at the beginning of podcasting, I really had this like, oh,
1:50
Speaker 3: you need to like study the person and write them down.
1:52
Speaker 3: And there was a listening to all this advice from
1:54
Speaker 3: other podcasters who just had different methods than mine, and
1:57
Speaker 3: I found myself like we were just recording conversations and
2:01
Speaker 3: I'm somebody who has eight thousand thoughts a second, so
2:05
Speaker 3: I don't really And it brings me back to when
2:07
Speaker 3: I was a teenager and I caught my sister sitting
2:10
Speaker 3: in her room writing down questions she was going to
2:12
Speaker 3: ask a boy on a phone call, and I was like,
2:15
Speaker 3: you have to think about things. I'm just I can
2:17
Speaker 3: never stop thinking about what things I have to ask
2:20
Speaker 3: and say. So I'm glad that I'm in podcasting. I
2:23
Speaker 3: can't believe I resisted it for so long, because it's
2:25
Speaker 3: such a joy to be able to finally have somewhere
2:28
Speaker 3: for these questions to go.
2:30
Speaker 1: It was so cool, you like truly anybody from any
2:33
Speaker 1: walk of life. It's such a skill.
2:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, thank you so much. Yeah.
2:37
Speaker 1: So when I was looking at your Instagram, I was thinking,
2:42
Speaker 1: you know, you post your body as it is, skin
2:45
Speaker 1: and flaps and stretch marks, and for some reason, it
2:47
Speaker 1: still feels radical.
2:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know why I think it feels so radical
2:53
Speaker 3: as I think that we are First of all, it's
2:56
Speaker 3: only been what four years that this, any of this
2:59
Speaker 3: is been normalized, that we've seen, you know, mannequins start
3:03
Speaker 3: to be different shapes and sizes, that we've seen models
3:05
Speaker 3: of all different walks of life, Like I only saw
3:07
Speaker 3: an ost to me bag for the first time a
3:09
Speaker 3: couple of years ago. Like these things that were so
3:12
Speaker 3: hidden in society but yet so normal for so many
3:15
Speaker 3: people are suddenly mainstream. But I think at the same time,
3:19
Speaker 3: I don't know when you were born. I was born
3:21
Speaker 3: in eighty four, so I grew up through my adolescence
3:25
Speaker 3: in the nineties and then the two thousands, where the
3:29
Speaker 3: way that the world viewed bodies was so different, very skewed,
3:33
Speaker 3: very isolating, And so I think that it's still even
3:38
Speaker 3: for me to this day, still feels a little bit
3:40
Speaker 3: radical because there is an oversaturation that has to happen
3:44
Speaker 3: in order for us to sort of settle our hearts
3:46
Speaker 3: and minds and brains into something far away from the
3:50
Speaker 3: conditioning that we grew up in. So I think that's
3:52
Speaker 3: why I have a lot of like forgiveness for the
3:55
Speaker 3: thoughts that I still have and a lot of body
3:57
Speaker 3: hate that I might still endure because I'm like, girl,
4:01
Speaker 3: you grew up through an era where there was like
4:04
Speaker 3: a body that you never could attain. Not only that,
4:07
Speaker 3: but like the styles then were like everything low rise,
4:10
Speaker 3: and like your underwear was like high, like these high
4:13
Speaker 3: waisted thought it was very bizarre. It's all coming back,
4:15
Speaker 3: of course, because that's society for you. But yeah, like you,
4:20
Speaker 3: unless you were this mold, you just got really used
4:23
Speaker 3: to hiding. And now we're just starting to see a
4:25
Speaker 3: lot of it. It feels exciting, it feels radical, and
4:29
Speaker 3: it also is with a lot of pushback, and so
4:32
Speaker 3: I think it's really cool to have opportunities to talk
4:34
Speaker 3: about it, unpack it and kind of move forward. Right.
4:38
Speaker 1: Well, you mention the thoughts you still have, which I've
4:42
Speaker 1: heard you talk about your first thought and your second thought. Yeah,
4:45
Speaker 1: and that actually really changed the way I think because
4:48
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of work. I personally like body neutrality,
4:51
Speaker 1: so I've done a lot of work to get to
4:52
Speaker 1: that point. And sometimes I watch TV and I'll be like, whoa,
4:57
Speaker 1: she really looks different. And then I'm like and yell,
5:01
Speaker 1: that's not an okay thought. Yeah, and I have to
5:04
Speaker 1: rewire my brain and I can't believe I still have
5:07
Speaker 1: those thoughts.
5:08
Speaker 3: No, but I that's the conditioning, right, Like that's why
5:11
Speaker 3: we have like internalized fat phobia, why we have internalized racism,
5:14
Speaker 3: why we have all of these different factors. Like we've
5:17
Speaker 3: been conditioned our entire lives to be certain ways, So
5:20
Speaker 3: it would only make sense that we would still have
5:23
Speaker 3: those types of thoughts. But that's what's so amazing about
5:25
Speaker 3: it is your first thought isn't the thought that necessarily
5:28
Speaker 3: becomes your action. Your second thought, your follow through is
5:32
Speaker 3: like who you are and who you're becoming. And I
5:34
Speaker 3: feel like, for me, I was so stuck in the
5:37
Speaker 3: first thoughts. I was so stuck on like the instinct
5:39
Speaker 3: thought and now realizing like, oh, I can actually rewrite
5:43
Speaker 3: write this, I can rewire this a little bit, and
5:45
Speaker 3: I can have a second thought, and maybe eventually my
5:48
Speaker 3: second thoughts become the first thought. And I will say,
5:51
Speaker 3: as somebody who is like for me, like my big
5:55
Speaker 3: thing that I was so hung up on for a
5:57
Speaker 3: really long time, didn't even show them for eight years
6:00
Speaker 3: was my stretch marks. These were majorly they just it
6:03
Speaker 3: felt like the biggest shame cloak that I could wear
6:06
Speaker 3: in life. And I had never seen anybody like them
6:09
Speaker 3: with mine, So it would only make sense that when
6:11
Speaker 3: I saw them in the mirror, even saw them in
6:13
Speaker 3: my maternity photos, that I would ask the photographer to
6:16
Speaker 3: blur them out, that I would, you know, do what
6:18
Speaker 3: I could to conceal those things, because where was the
6:22
Speaker 3: processing for something that you didn't even know existed on
6:24
Speaker 3: other people? Where where is that? And now I'm like,
6:27
Speaker 3: all these years later, so it makes sense that all
6:29
Speaker 3: my first thoughts were like ooh no, ooh, hi, ooh
6:32
Speaker 3: yeah cover up to now being like, oh, how does
6:35
Speaker 3: that like how does like does this look good on me?
6:38
Speaker 3: In general? And then not even having the stretch marks,
6:41
Speaker 3: coming into this constant equation of like can I show
6:44
Speaker 3: up today? And I think that one thing you mentioned
6:47
Speaker 3: body neutrality, like I don't even know where I am.
6:49
Speaker 3: I almost can't even coin it. My whole stance is
6:54
Speaker 3: what can I do to show up today? So I
6:56
Speaker 3: guess that sort of lands in neutrality because I can't
6:59
Speaker 3: control if I feel good or bad every single day,
7:02
Speaker 3: or even neutral. I have to figure out how to
7:04
Speaker 3: show up. I have to figure out how to live
7:06
Speaker 3: my life. I have to figure out how to do
7:07
Speaker 3: the things that I hope and wish and dream to do.
7:11
Speaker 3: And sometimes that will be, you know, in a string
7:14
Speaker 3: bikini showing those stretch marks in the folds and whatever,
7:18
Speaker 3: and other days it's going to be in probably long
7:22
Speaker 3: genes and bear sneakers and like a sweatshirt. I don't care.
7:26
Speaker 3: Like at the end of the day, I don't want
7:28
Speaker 3: to create more shame for myself for not being able
7:31
Speaker 3: to do it to the fullest extent, because I recognize
7:34
Speaker 3: that today my first thought was too loud, and my
7:37
Speaker 3: second thought is there. But in order to quiet her,
7:40
Speaker 3: in order to quiet that first one, I have to
7:42
Speaker 3: not be so distracted. So it's okay to kind of
7:45
Speaker 3: wear what you need to move forward. So my whole
7:47
Speaker 3: ethosis every day singular thoughts what can I do to
7:50
Speaker 3: show up?
7:52
Speaker 1: Well? When I heard you talk about the second thought,
7:54
Speaker 1: it really it took the shame away from me, like
7:57
Speaker 1: it gave me permission. And that's the word I kept
7:59
Speaker 1: coming back to as one of your followers, is just
8:03
Speaker 1: you're giving women permission to like themselves because you're liking yourself. Yeah,
8:08
Speaker 1: who gave you permission?
8:11
Speaker 3: Like thousands of women before me. It's it's I think
8:15
Speaker 3: that I was a very palatable version of people to
8:18
Speaker 3: get introduced to these conversations. I can't negate the fact
8:23
Speaker 3: that people might be able to mirror themselves in me,
8:26
Speaker 3: because for the longest time I got away with just
8:29
Speaker 3: being a pretty face. And then they're like, but if
8:31
Speaker 3: she can be beautiful strutch works, maybe I can too.
8:34
Speaker 3: And the whole while I'm feeling like crap about myself
8:37
Speaker 3: and being like, well, at least everyone thinks I have
8:39
Speaker 3: a pretty face, like that only takes you so far.
8:41
Speaker 3: But essentially these there's ground roots, like people who have
8:46
Speaker 3: been doing activism for you know, beauty culture and for
8:50
Speaker 3: you know, fat liberation and activism, and like their work,
8:55
Speaker 3: it's rippling out into so many different factors. But I
8:58
Speaker 3: think for me, like I just want to show up
9:02
Speaker 3: as myself and I want other people, no matter what
9:05
Speaker 3: they look like, even if they mirror themselves in me
9:07
Speaker 3: or not that we individually as facets of beauty, of
9:11
Speaker 3: facets of women, of facets of bodies, just think and
9:15
Speaker 3: reflect on what is the life I want to live?
9:18
Speaker 3: And how can I show up today in the body
9:20
Speaker 3: I exist in right now. That doesn't mean it's going
9:23
Speaker 3: to feel perfect. It doesn't mean it's going to feel
9:24
Speaker 3: great all the time. If you've ever had a baby,
9:27
Speaker 3: you know very well, or gone through any massive body
9:30
Speaker 3: change very quickly, you know all too well what it
9:34
Speaker 3: is to carry grief and have to process those things too. Right,
9:38
Speaker 3: So I can only hope that people will allow themselves
9:42
Speaker 3: to be introduced to conversations through me, or allow themselves
9:45
Speaker 3: to sort of reflect upon their own journeys because they
9:48
Speaker 3: see me fighting for mine, right Like I think a
9:51
Speaker 3: lot of people followed me at a time that I
9:53
Speaker 3: was sort of exiting being a weight loss account, and
9:56
Speaker 3: so when they watch me sort of give birth again
9:59
Speaker 3: and my body change again, really walking through the trenches
10:03
Speaker 3: where I was like, I feel horrible. I'm not going
10:06
Speaker 3: to stand here confidently and tell you how great I feel.
10:09
Speaker 3: I feel awful. And this is part of the process
10:12
Speaker 3: of grieving and that's important to show up too.
10:15
Speaker 1: I want to touch on that for a second. So
10:17
Speaker 1: for anybody who doesn't know, you were twenty nine and
10:19
Speaker 1: you lost one hundred pounds and at thirty three you
10:23
Speaker 1: decided enough was enough, you said the weight loss. It
10:26
Speaker 1: made you feel confident, but guarded and then ultimately unhappy.
10:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it gave me a full sense of confidence, right.
10:33
Speaker 3: It gave me confidence because I could shop where my
10:37
Speaker 3: friends could shop. It gave me confidence to leave my
10:39
Speaker 3: house more, but knowing I wasn't going to be judged
10:41
Speaker 3: for my body. I think the harder part about that
10:44
Speaker 3: is when you've existed in a larger body and then
10:47
Speaker 3: you lose weight and you watch people treat you differently,
10:50
Speaker 3: and you watch people you know suddenly open doors for
10:53
Speaker 3: you or be kinder to you. You have more opportunity.
10:57
Speaker 3: There is a resentment when you finally get to shop
10:59
Speaker 3: in the store that you could never shop in before.
11:01
Speaker 3: You're so excited and it's followed up with so much resentment.
11:05
Speaker 3: So that was a lot of processing to do. But
11:07
Speaker 3: essentially I landed with an eating disorder. I landed with
11:12
Speaker 3: major food fears. I landed with more body dysmorphia. Than ever.
11:16
Speaker 3: I was editing every single image that anybody ever saw
11:19
Speaker 3: of me. I was battling major health issues which took
11:23
Speaker 3: me years to even confront and admit that I had,
11:26
Speaker 3: and I am to this day. I'm going to be
11:29
Speaker 3: on medication for the rest of my life because of
11:31
Speaker 3: the damage I did to my body by dieting and
11:33
Speaker 3: by losing weight. So we see these weight loss stories
11:36
Speaker 3: in these before and afters, and it takes a lot
11:38
Speaker 3: to kind of look at your story and look at
11:40
Speaker 3: yourself and be like, I did a lot of things,
11:43
Speaker 3: and like, while I can be proud for parts of them,
11:46
Speaker 3: there is a lot that I have to acknowledge was
11:50
Speaker 3: wrong and what I put out into the world was wrong.
11:53
Speaker 3: And the only way that I can consciously reverse that
11:57
Speaker 3: is to show leave all that up, but also show
12:01
Speaker 3: up in a new light, be after the after photo.
12:04
Speaker 3: Like understand that I like I would have before just
12:07
Speaker 3: to give contents, like I would give before and after pictures,
12:11
Speaker 3: and I would have like myself like eating food, you know,
12:14
Speaker 3: like a normal human, and then I would have an
12:16
Speaker 3: after where I was like slimmer and like one hundred
12:19
Speaker 3: pounds less, and then I would make a caption that
12:21
Speaker 3: says if only I could tell her to put the
12:24
Speaker 3: fork down, and people would be like girl, yes, like yes, yes, yes,
12:28
Speaker 3: like cheers, teers, cheers, like so proud of you. You're
12:30
Speaker 3: so amazing, Like look at that self control, look at
12:33
Speaker 3: that confidence, Look at what you're like radiating. I was
12:35
Speaker 3: reading an aysorder like I was literally fat shaming myself.
12:39
Speaker 3: I was literally telling myself not to eat. And I
12:42
Speaker 3: was also not acknowledging that, like the season that that
12:45
Speaker 3: first photo was in was like a really hard time.
12:48
Speaker 3: So I leave all those pots up because I want
12:51
Speaker 3: people to understand, like I'm not going to bury that.
12:53
Speaker 3: I'm not going to like if somebody wants to find
12:55
Speaker 3: old stuff, I'm going to be like, but you said
12:57
Speaker 3: this before, Yes I did, And watch me be a hypocrite,
13:00
Speaker 3: watch me come back and like share another side. Evolving.
13:03
Speaker 1: It's not even a hippop.
13:04
Speaker 3: It's evolving. Yeah, I mean at the end of the day,
13:07
Speaker 3: I also said I'd never get a divorce, and I
13:09
Speaker 3: did that too, So it's a lot of like just
13:13
Speaker 3: understanding that there are narratives that you can buy in
13:16
Speaker 3: and understand and claim as your own, and then there's
13:19
Speaker 3: also reversing of that and this is why I'd never
13:21
Speaker 3: like to like shame anybody who's on a diet or
13:24
Speaker 3: going through body modifications or even using filters and editing
13:27
Speaker 3: their photos, because I'm like, I was that girl. I'm
13:29
Speaker 3: telling you what she needs right now is just for
13:32
Speaker 3: people to love her and to not compliment her on
13:34
Speaker 3: all of the appearances all the time. Just love her.
13:37
Speaker 3: She meets somewhere to land. If you add more shame
13:40
Speaker 3: to the pile that she's already carrying, it's not going
13:43
Speaker 3: to go anywhere. And I think people often are like
13:46
Speaker 3: expecting me to like hate on a woman when she
13:48
Speaker 3: gets a tummy tuck or like breast implants, or like
13:50
Speaker 3: goes and gets like a lot of stuff done or
13:52
Speaker 3: uses filters. I'm like, no, it's just none of my business.
13:55
Speaker 3: My business is taking care of how I'm doing and
13:58
Speaker 3: what's going on with me, and making choices for myself
14:02
Speaker 3: and sort of living this journey out loud as I
14:05
Speaker 3: navigate what it might be like to just understand that
14:09
Speaker 3: you don't necessarily have to love your body by feeling,
14:12
Speaker 3: but you can love it by action. And I'm just
14:15
Speaker 3: continuing to show up that way every day.
14:18
Speaker 1: And also, you know, when I speak to experts in
14:22
Speaker 1: feminism like Gloria Steinem. Feminism is all about choice, and
14:27
Speaker 1: so I think it's giving women the individuals like they
14:30
Speaker 1: can make their own choices. We can all make our
14:32
Speaker 1: own choices about our bodies, and we're all kind of
14:35
Speaker 1: like on different parts of our own journeys. I'm curious
14:37
Speaker 1: as to the beginning of yours. Where did your relationship
14:41
Speaker 1: with food stem from?
14:42
Speaker 3: Do you think a million different places for sure. What
14:45
Speaker 3: I think is shocking for my journey is that both
14:48
Speaker 3: my mom and my sister struggled with eating disorders, and
14:51
Speaker 3: I had very much like exceptionalism for myself. I was
14:54
Speaker 3: never going to be me, I was ever going to
14:56
Speaker 3: be that person, and I just thought that I was
14:59
Speaker 3: going to be fine. I thought that I'd never deal
15:02
Speaker 3: with mental health issues, that I was going to be
15:04
Speaker 3: the one that was like the exception. And there's so
15:08
Speaker 3: much to and I've had to have like talks with
15:09
Speaker 3: this since my mom too, because I think a lot
15:11
Speaker 3: of parents like blame themselves when something like this happens.
15:14
Speaker 3: But I talk to somebody who works for like a
15:17
Speaker 3: natural Eating disorder Alliance, and she shared with me that
15:20
Speaker 3: eating disorders can actually be passed down, like they can
15:22
Speaker 3: actually be passed down like alcoholism is or anything else.
15:26
Speaker 3: Like it's hereditary just as much as it's like conditioned
15:29
Speaker 3: by society, right, So really, yeah, I'd have to look
15:32
Speaker 3: up the facts, like, don't quote me one hundred percent,
15:34
Speaker 3: but there is Like I did a podcast with this
15:36
Speaker 3: woman from an eating disort of recovery place and she
15:38
Speaker 3: was like, it is environmental, it's also passed down, like
15:43
Speaker 3: it can it literally could be passed down. And so
15:45
Speaker 3: whenever people start their stories and they're like, well my mother, sure,
15:50
Speaker 3: but what about her mother and what about her mother,
15:52
Speaker 3: Like we're all under the same cycle of conditioning. So
15:55
Speaker 3: I don't hold anything against like anybody in my story
15:59
Speaker 3: or my family at all. But I very much recognized
16:02
Speaker 3: that I grew up in an environment to which we
16:04
Speaker 3: did have a focus on our bodies in the sense
16:06
Speaker 3: that we were struggling. Everyone was struggling. I was a
16:10
Speaker 3: larger size from a young age. I developed really young.
16:13
Speaker 3: I was size twelve fourteen, which was considered plus size
16:17
Speaker 3: then in high school, so I couldn't even shop clothing
16:20
Speaker 3: where it was sold. We used to have to drive
16:21
Speaker 3: to the States for me to be able to get stuff,
16:24
Speaker 3: and that just was very normal for my life. It
16:27
Speaker 3: was also very normal to go on diets. I think
16:29
Speaker 3: the averages people go on two diets a year for
16:32
Speaker 3: our total of like one hundred and forty in their lifetime. Like,
16:34
Speaker 3: diets were just a way of life, and we went
16:37
Speaker 3: on them often. Mom would go on them. My sister
16:40
Speaker 3: had a really extreme eating disorder, and I remember being
16:42
Speaker 3: on the sidelines of like, I just wish we could
16:44
Speaker 3: help her. I wish there was something we could do.
16:47
Speaker 3: So I never really felt like I had any food
16:50
Speaker 3: issues or any problems whatsoever. Because I didn't have the
16:54
Speaker 3: eating disorder that my sister had, I must be okay.
16:58
Speaker 3: But there was still a complex relationship in the sense
17:00
Speaker 3: that I still had moral values around food. There was good,
17:03
Speaker 3: there was bad, and it was like constantly balancing the
17:06
Speaker 3: guilt and shame of that. Then I got pregnant at
17:08
Speaker 3: twenty Then I got pregnant at twenty two. Then I
17:11
Speaker 3: got pregnant at twenty four, and I have three kids
17:13
Speaker 3: by the time I'm twenty five, And yeah, I'm well
17:16
Speaker 3: over two hundred pounds at this point because my body
17:18
Speaker 3: has gone through a lot of stuff and we were
17:22
Speaker 3: living very low income, so I didn't have access to
17:24
Speaker 3: a lot of like healthy foods, Like when people are
17:26
Speaker 3: like it's okay to be big as long as you're healthy,
17:28
Speaker 3: but also like it's okay to be big and not
17:30
Speaker 3: be healthy because you don't have access to it. Like
17:32
Speaker 3: I didn't have access or money to be able to
17:35
Speaker 3: spend it on, you know, eating the fringe of the
17:37
Speaker 3: grocery store, like everyone loves to advise. I at the
17:41
Speaker 3: time I was able to lose weight was during a
17:44
Speaker 3: time that I started being able to have more access
17:47
Speaker 3: to things, the access of information, things like that, but
17:50
Speaker 3: I also didn't have a ton of money, so mine
17:53
Speaker 3: was downloading an app that would tell me to eat
17:56
Speaker 3: what a toddler eats in a day, not having a trainer,
17:59
Speaker 3: but find enough online stuff and sort of like working
18:04
Speaker 3: my way into like this deficit and this like very
18:07
Speaker 3: restrictive lifestyle which felt so celebrated but was actually incredibly
18:13
Speaker 3: incredibly hard, and it made me become more and more
18:18
Speaker 3: disordered in the way that I lived because I couldn't
18:20
Speaker 3: go out for a bite to eat with a friend
18:22
Speaker 3: without having to work out three times that day to
18:25
Speaker 3: compensate for it. So when you talk about like restriction.
18:28
Speaker 3: Restriction for me was like a life restriction. It was very,
18:32
Speaker 3: very restrictive, and then very addictive because I was praised
18:36
Speaker 3: so highly for it on social media, and after a
18:40
Speaker 3: decade of sort of clawing myself on the sidelines of
18:44
Speaker 3: being a creator, having attention for something felt really validating
18:48
Speaker 3: and really good. So it only made sense that I
18:51
Speaker 3: would continue down that path. But I would say that
18:55
Speaker 3: very little of my weight loss journey was done healthily.
18:59
Speaker 3: It was done with a lot of misinformation and with
19:02
Speaker 3: a lot of restriction, which ultimately led down a whole
19:06
Speaker 3: path of difficulty and health problems.
19:09
Speaker 1: Like I said, I really like when you talk about
19:12
Speaker 1: bodies changing. I've heard you say this when losing weight,
19:15
Speaker 1: You're rewarded constantly for your change. When you grow a baby,
19:19
Speaker 1: rewarded constantly for your change, When you change for you
19:23
Speaker 1: or in recovery from weight loss or pregnancy, it can
19:25
Speaker 1: get really quiet. How do you think that we as
19:29
Speaker 1: a society, or just as women listening to this podcast,
19:32
Speaker 1: can do a better job of being supportive and sensitive
19:35
Speaker 1: when we see people in our life or even ourselves
19:38
Speaker 1: going through changes.
19:41
Speaker 3: A lot of it comes to how we treat people
19:43
Speaker 3: when they're thin. I know that's a weird thing to say,
19:45
Speaker 3: because normally when we answer this question, we're trying to
19:48
Speaker 3: dance around, like how do we treat people when they've
19:50
Speaker 3: had a body change? And I think it starts to
19:52
Speaker 3: kind of lose weight, yeah, because like if yeah, that
19:56
Speaker 3: like it's interesting going through postpartum. I watched a lot
19:59
Speaker 3: of women who were pregnant at the same time as me,
20:01
Speaker 3: and some of them went right back to a body
20:03
Speaker 3: that looked like what they looked like before, And the
20:06
Speaker 3: comments on that are like, oh my gosh, like you
20:09
Speaker 3: look like you never had a baby, Like what are
20:11
Speaker 3: your secrets? You look amazing. None of these things are
20:14
Speaker 3: negative comments. They are for those who read them. They
20:17
Speaker 3: also are for the woman who is receiving them, because again,
20:20
Speaker 3: we're conditioning her even further that we love her for
20:24
Speaker 3: what she looks like. So I think it starts with
20:27
Speaker 3: how we treat our thin friends. I think it starts
20:29
Speaker 3: with how we treat those who fit the mold, and
20:32
Speaker 3: then going away from there. For me, I have tried
20:35
Speaker 3: to air away from individual body comments, especially around weight,
20:41
Speaker 3: and really focusing on like, oh my gosh, it's so
20:43
Speaker 3: good to see you and afterwards, even reflecting like it
20:46
Speaker 3: is so nice to spend time with you, like you
20:48
Speaker 3: just have such a warmth about you, like instilling things
20:51
Speaker 3: like that. I bet my cousin actually said to me
20:53
Speaker 3: that they reversed the way they speak to their daughter,
20:55
Speaker 3: that instead of being like, I'm so proud of you,
20:58
Speaker 3: reversing it to you must be so crowd of yourself.
21:01
Speaker 3: And there's just languages everything. If I was never validated
21:06
Speaker 3: for losing weight, I likely never would have gone down
21:08
Speaker 3: that path of thinking this is how I get into society.
21:12
Speaker 3: If things weren't so quiet when I gained weight, I
21:15
Speaker 3: might not have struggled so much wanting and missing the
21:19
Speaker 3: validation that I was once getting. But it also was
21:22
Speaker 3: really healthy for me to not have that constant validation
21:26
Speaker 3: anymore either, because then it had me working internally on myself.
21:30
Speaker 3: I compare it to the high of a drug versus
21:33
Speaker 3: the consistency of a daily vitamin. Right, so that I
21:37
Speaker 3: think that's my best advice is just being really cognizant
21:40
Speaker 3: of like removing body comments from all people, not just
21:43
Speaker 3: from those who have a different body from those who
21:46
Speaker 3: are very normal ones. Because I think about it all
21:49
Speaker 3: the time when I look at certain people on social
21:51
Speaker 3: media and they're like so perfectly the mold, and I remember,
21:57
Speaker 3: I remember that, I remember those days, and I just
22:01
Speaker 3: don't ever want anybody to feel like they don't have
22:03
Speaker 3: permission to change that they don't have permission to eat,
22:07
Speaker 3: or they don't have permission to rest, or they don't
22:10
Speaker 3: have permission to age or whatever those things are, and
22:14
Speaker 3: just to love them, like I can't imagine being only
22:17
Speaker 3: ever validated for what you looked like, because that must
22:20
Speaker 3: be really scary, because it's so fleeting. It's like the
22:24
Speaker 3: it's the weirdest thing to hinge your worth on when
22:28
Speaker 3: it's something that's so variable, If that makes sense.
22:32
Speaker 1: Yes, I always say it's the least interesting thing about anybody.
22:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. Truly, there's a beauty redefined. They have
22:40
Speaker 3: this quote that my body is an instrument, not an ornament,
22:43
Speaker 3: and yet we treat each other like ornaments, and I
22:45
Speaker 3: struggle with that sometimes too. But I'm like, what about clothes?
22:47
Speaker 3: What about makeup? Because I love those things, but that's
22:50
Speaker 3: also so individual. I wouldn't look at somebody who you
22:53
Speaker 3: know dressed differently or didn't wear makeup and be like
22:56
Speaker 3: are they okay? Like do they love themselves or like,
23:00
Speaker 3: I had to come to a place of understanding where
23:03
Speaker 3: my love was. And that's so you can't learn to
23:06
Speaker 3: love everybody the exact same way. Everyone's so individual and
23:09
Speaker 3: that's also the same for ourselves. Right, So I wear
23:12
Speaker 3: makeup every day, even though I got a lot of
23:14
Speaker 3: crap for it for a long time. I've realized now
23:16
Speaker 3: to this day, I like makeup because I like that
23:19
Speaker 3: time in the morning. It's one of my favorite creative
23:21
Speaker 3: things to do. I always wanted to go to cosmpolity school,
23:24
Speaker 3: but I cosmetology. Sorry, but I can't imagine ripping that
23:27
Speaker 3: away from me, being like no, because you don't accept
23:29
Speaker 3: yourself enough bare face, Like that's actually not what it's
23:32
Speaker 3: about it all. I just really genuinely love doing it.
23:35
Speaker 3: I love connecting with myself. I love like making my
23:38
Speaker 3: eyes pop. I love making parts of me feel like
23:42
Speaker 3: sparkly and special and like that's what it should be about. Right.
23:45
Speaker 3: But also, there was a time that makeup was a
23:47
Speaker 3: furies to get up and you know the Bridesmaid scene
23:50
Speaker 3: where she gets up and like does her makeup and
23:51
Speaker 3: then sneaks back into bed so she looks perfect in
23:53
Speaker 3: the morning. I literally have done that before, Like I
23:56
Speaker 3: did that when I met.
23:57
Speaker 1: We've all done that all the time, used on that.
24:01
Speaker 3: So it's like, yeah, you can have unhealthy relationships with
24:04
Speaker 3: beauty stuff too, and then you can have healthy ones.
24:06
Speaker 3: So I try and like not judge anybody for what
24:09
Speaker 3: they're doing, no matter what, and and that takes effort.
24:13
Speaker 3: That takes effort to stop judging people like that.
24:15
Speaker 1: Well, so I asked my therapist one time. I was like,
24:19
Speaker 1: how do I you like? She gives me such a
24:22
Speaker 1: gift by not judging anything I say, And I said,
24:26
Speaker 1: I feel so grateful that I have this time with you.
24:29
Speaker 1: How can I give other people that gift, like the
24:31
Speaker 1: people I love in my life? And she said, you're
24:33
Speaker 1: not going to like the answer.
24:34
Speaker 3: I said what?
24:36
Speaker 1: And she said, when you stop judging yourself, you stop
24:39
Speaker 1: judging others. And I was like, dang, because I'm my
24:42
Speaker 1: harshest critic for sure, you know, yeah, but it's so profound.
24:46
Speaker 1: So I think the work you do on yourself really
24:48
Speaker 1: reflects in your relationships. But there's also this Ronda Rousey article.
24:53
Speaker 1: Do you know who that is?
24:55
Speaker 3: Yeah?
24:55
Speaker 1: I do, yeah, yeah, yeah, So she's super strong, and
24:58
Speaker 1: I think somebody at but like the height of her,
25:01
Speaker 1: like winning said something about her body like, oh, I
25:04
Speaker 1: would never want to have sex with her. And she
25:07
Speaker 1: wrote this amazing article and the title is my body
25:11
Speaker 1: is not for having sex with millionaires because I'm not
25:14
Speaker 1: a do nothing bitch, Oh.
25:16
Speaker 4: My gosh, which is really extreme, but it like I
25:20
Speaker 4: think about that title in my head all the time,
25:22
Speaker 4: like your body is like it is for us, it's
25:26
Speaker 4: not for I asking yourself those questions.
25:29
Speaker 3: I was watching The Boys last night, the new season
25:31
Speaker 3: of It is out and there looking at who their
25:33
Speaker 3: new next superhero is, and they were like, this woman's
25:35
Speaker 3: really great because she's like body positive, she's like body diapers.
25:39
Speaker 3: She'd like be really great for that. But like she's
25:41
Speaker 3: still and they pause and they go still fuckable. They're
25:44
Speaker 3: like yeah, like good enough. And that's sort of like
25:47
Speaker 3: they do it in a way to like be provocative,
25:49
Speaker 3: like why are we only okay with like some realms
25:51
Speaker 3: of things and not others because we're still gearing ourselves
25:55
Speaker 3: towards a male gaze that that is like so again
25:58
Speaker 3: so conditioned in us, Like so of course we create
26:01
Speaker 3: a lot of judgments around ourselves, and I think this
26:03
Speaker 3: is why Like, even when I lost weight, women treated
26:05
Speaker 3: me differently for two different reasons, either because I fit
26:08
Speaker 3: the mold or because it scared them that I did that.
26:11
Speaker 3: It's such a bizarre like the way that we view
26:14
Speaker 3: women and the way that we view them in their bodies,
26:15
Speaker 3: and the judgments that we actually do create are really
26:18
Speaker 3: stemmed from our own stuff. And I think that's one
26:21
Speaker 3: thing I've really reflected on lately, is how important it
26:24
Speaker 3: is that we do the work on ourselves, not just
26:27
Speaker 3: for ourselves, but because we actually are inflicting harm on
26:30
Speaker 3: other people when we carry around a lot of the
26:33
Speaker 3: stuff we're going through. That's just the nature of abyz
26:36
Speaker 3: of being a person, right, is we all have traumas
26:40
Speaker 3: little tea, big tea, traumas that we're carrying around, and
26:43
Speaker 3: we think it's all about us. We think it's all
26:46
Speaker 3: about are we harming ourselves and my having negative thoughts?
26:49
Speaker 3: But like you said, and like your therapists echoed, obviously
26:52
Speaker 3: we are also creating harm when we have judgments towards ourselves,
26:55
Speaker 3: we create judgments for others. So like the healing has
26:57
Speaker 3: to start with us in order for us to start
27:00
Speaker 3: healing the people, like helping other people heal around us
27:02
Speaker 3: as well.
27:03
Speaker 1: Okay, so I have recognized that when you go on
27:06
Speaker 1: people's podcasts, they often just like spill all of their
27:10
Speaker 1: body insecurity to you, and I just feel like you
27:13
Speaker 1: handle it with such grace. But I can't imagine that
27:15
Speaker 1: it's easy because you feel like such a safe space.
27:18
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if like any of your own stuff
27:21
Speaker 1: is ever triggered by beating this prominent sort of spokesperson
27:26
Speaker 1: for this MM interesting.
27:29
Speaker 3: The things I find that I struggle with the most
27:32
Speaker 3: in terms of like rehashing or working through is divorce,
27:35
Speaker 3: because that's still a space that people really don't openly
27:38
Speaker 3: talk about a lot, including myself, and so there's still
27:42
Speaker 3: a lot of like residual grief. But when it comes
27:44
Speaker 3: to body conversations, I think, because I've had so many
27:47
Speaker 3: of them at this point that I actually feel like
27:50
Speaker 3: I love having conversations with people because I remember people
27:54
Speaker 3: saying something to me that was like one single line,
27:57
Speaker 3: like we just echoed, like that's the least interesting part
28:00
Speaker 3: of me, or my body is an instrument not an ornament.
28:02
Speaker 3: Why are we repeating these things years after we heard them?
28:05
Speaker 3: Because something in us changed when we heard those words
28:08
Speaker 3: or had that moment. So sometimes I'm so excited when
28:11
Speaker 3: people invite me into conversation with their own insecurities. One
28:15
Speaker 3: because I think that we're so ostracizing on people who
28:17
Speaker 3: are struggling, Like it's like no why, Like it's all
28:20
Speaker 3: about loving yourself, like that total toxic positivity type of mentality.
28:24
Speaker 3: So but I would say the only time I think
28:27
Speaker 3: it gets hard is like the same way it gets
28:30
Speaker 3: hard for me because I'm such an EmPATH, and my
28:32
Speaker 3: biggest hard is not my body fluctuating. It's how I
28:37
Speaker 3: didn't show up in my life when I wasn't content
28:39
Speaker 3: with my body. And to be clear, I wasn't contented
28:41
Speaker 3: at big size and I wasn't contented a small size.
28:44
Speaker 3: So I removed myself from my children's lives, I removed
28:47
Speaker 3: myself from intimacities with my husband. I removed myself and
28:51
Speaker 3: sidelined myself. And so when people mirror there's their experiences
28:55
Speaker 3: being like I haven't been able to go to the
28:57
Speaker 3: beach with my kids in like six summers, and like
29:00
Speaker 3: I'm grieving that and I'm going to show up this summer.
29:02
Speaker 3: That's when like I get really emotional because like that's
29:05
Speaker 3: where my grief is, and that's where I feel so
29:09
Speaker 3: much pain still because I can't fix it. Everything else
29:12
Speaker 3: I can fix, like in a sense, like I can
29:15
Speaker 3: I can rewire in my brain. I can work towards
29:17
Speaker 3: doing more and doing better. But like my kids are
29:20
Speaker 3: teenagers now, I don't get them back again. I don't
29:22
Speaker 3: get them as babies again. I don't get to jump
29:25
Speaker 3: in the pool with them ever again. Like that, So
29:28
Speaker 3: when I have conversations with people and they're struggling, I
29:30
Speaker 3: can only hope that we can come to a place
29:32
Speaker 3: of like how do I let what I missed becomes
29:37
Speaker 3: something that you don't. And that's where it's like the
29:39
Speaker 3: most beautiful intersections of stories. Sorry I cry every single
29:42
Speaker 3: time I talk about this, but like that's where our
29:46
Speaker 3: humanity has to show up. The media isn't going to
29:49
Speaker 3: do it for us, Like maybe social media is trying,
29:51
Speaker 3: but like mainstream isn't doing this for us. Nobody's having
29:55
Speaker 3: these conversations. Television hasn't even caught up yet, Like it's
29:57
Speaker 3: not there. We have to do this for each other
30:00
Speaker 3: because everything else is still too profitable. It's too profitable
30:05
Speaker 3: for women to hate themselves, So we have got to
30:08
Speaker 3: be like this inner circle of fighting for this day
30:12
Speaker 3: after day and sharing and exchanging this information like currency
30:17
Speaker 3: constantly with each other. So as much as it can
30:20
Speaker 3: be a lot, I also think that it's some of
30:23
Speaker 3: my most favorite conversations to have because I can only
30:26
Speaker 3: hope that it triggers something beautiful in their life and
30:30
Speaker 3: really launches into something more, or it's like a stepping
30:33
Speaker 3: stone into that.
30:35
Speaker 1: I know, just as like a follower of yours and talking,
30:39
Speaker 1: you know, in circles of women, how many people you've
30:42
Speaker 1: impacted by just like showing up as yourself, So you
30:45
Speaker 1: really are doing that, I hope. I think you know that,
30:48
Speaker 1: but I hope you know it.
30:50
Speaker 3: I hope so too. I mean, I'm so grateful that
30:53
Speaker 3: what I do now is more mainstream because at the beginning,
30:57
Speaker 3: it was a lot harder, right, it was a lot
30:59
Speaker 3: of just men, I'm so angry, And now there's a
31:02
Speaker 3: lot of us to be angry at, so it's a
31:04
Speaker 3: lot more exhausting for them. And there's still a lot
31:07
Speaker 3: of people who are still receiving so much hate. And
31:11
Speaker 3: I think that's where I really acknowledge where my privilege lies.
31:14
Speaker 3: I'm still in a straight sized body. I can still
31:16
Speaker 3: shop in a lot of places. So I take a
31:18
Speaker 3: lot of time and to really reflect on where my
31:21
Speaker 3: place is in all of this and making sure that
31:23
Speaker 3: I am contributing in a beneficial way and not creating
31:27
Speaker 3: like a Yes, it's because I still have had people
31:30
Speaker 3: be like, it's okay to love yourself like this as
31:33
Speaker 3: long as you're healthy. I'm like, there's a lot of
31:34
Speaker 3: people with chronic illnesses that don't need to hear that
31:36
Speaker 3: right now. So it's a lot of like you said,
31:38
Speaker 3: like the conversations I can have on my podcast, like
31:41
Speaker 3: bringing people on with chronic illness or disability or that
31:45
Speaker 3: exist in like much larger bodies than I've ever been in,
31:47
Speaker 3: and let's talk about these things so we can figure
31:49
Speaker 3: out how to show up for each other and in
31:52
Speaker 3: our differences, not just our similarities.
31:55
Speaker 1: I need your advice on something, all right. I have
31:58
Speaker 1: not been able to crack this code. So pretty Smart
32:01
Speaker 1: is the name of the podcast, And I'm going to
32:04
Speaker 1: send you this book if you don't have it. But
32:06
Speaker 1: it was named after a book called Beauty Sick and
32:08
Speaker 1: doctor Renee Engel changed my life because the first chapter
32:12
Speaker 1: opens and it says, fifty four percent of women would
32:15
Speaker 1: rather be hit by a car or a truck than
32:17
Speaker 1: considered fat. And she's a professor of psychology at Northwestern
32:21
Speaker 1: and she would talk to her students at the beginning
32:23
Speaker 1: of each year and women would raise their hands and say, well,
32:27
Speaker 1: is it a truck or a prius? And when I
32:30
Speaker 1: was in high school, I would have said, how fast
32:33
Speaker 1: is the car going? And so when I read that,
32:36
Speaker 1: I was like, like, it just got me. And the
32:39
Speaker 1: rest of the book is so instructive in terms of
32:43
Speaker 1: like how to really heal in as many plays as
32:46
Speaker 1: you can. This is the one thing I have not
32:48
Speaker 1: been I've asked her, I've asked dieticians at practice and
32:52
Speaker 1: intuitive eating. No one has been able to give me
32:54
Speaker 1: this answer. When I am in conversation with girlfriends, whether
32:58
Speaker 1: they're really close or just kind of like new friends,
33:01
Speaker 1: and women comment on food on appearance on Thinness, what
33:09
Speaker 1: is something that I or anybody can say that isn't
33:13
Speaker 1: so off putting, that doesn't like totally reroute the conversation
33:18
Speaker 1: make people feel uncomfortable and also still not glossing over
33:23
Speaker 1: it and like participating in that kind of conversation because
33:26
Speaker 1: for some reason that still triggers me.
33:29
Speaker 3: So are we talking about someone maybe saying, oh, I'm
33:32
Speaker 3: like trying to lose ten pounds, I'm going to stick
33:34
Speaker 3: to a salad type of conversation, or oh my gosh,
33:37
Speaker 3: I've gotten like so just like sort of like self
33:39
Speaker 3: deprecating type of staff.
33:41
Speaker 1: Whether it's about themselves or even if I walk in
33:44
Speaker 1: and they're like, you look so thin.
33:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wish I could answer this in a way
33:48
Speaker 3: that was like the way that I do answer. I'll
33:52
Speaker 3: answer the way that I'm working towards. I haven't been
33:54
Speaker 3: out in the world enough that I've come into this
33:56
Speaker 3: ins that live experience, but I know that One boundary
33:59
Speaker 3: my sister set with me one time is as I
34:02
Speaker 3: was dieting in front of her, she was like, I
34:03
Speaker 3: actually can't hear about calories, and I was like, okay,
34:07
Speaker 3: clear as day, just don't talk about calories in front
34:09
Speaker 3: of you, all right, Like lesson learned Another boundary be like,
34:12
Speaker 3: I'm actually like trying not to think I have body comments,
34:15
Speaker 3: Like I'm working so hard on myself. I'm like really
34:17
Speaker 3: trying to not have body comments. So let's have a
34:20
Speaker 3: different complment. I'm going to compliment you that way it's
34:23
Speaker 3: like not a negative like you made me feel like shit,
34:26
Speaker 3: please don't make me feel like that, or like do
34:28
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? So I feel like for me,
34:31
Speaker 3: if somebody were like, oh my gosh, like you're looking
34:33
Speaker 3: you're looking so good, like have you lost weight? I
34:36
Speaker 3: either just like when people ask me it online, I
34:39
Speaker 3: either like don't acknowledge, or I'll be like, actually, please,
34:42
Speaker 3: that's that's a health boundary for me that I don't
34:44
Speaker 3: discuss like my weight or at all, or actually I
34:47
Speaker 3: don't mean myself it's not something that I do because
34:50
Speaker 3: I think that we are so again, I'm going to
34:52
Speaker 3: use the word condition We're so conditioned that that's a compliment.
34:55
Speaker 3: So it would be hard for us, it'd be hard
34:58
Speaker 3: for anybody to understand that that might be a full
35:00
Speaker 3: thing to say. So instead of making them feel ashamed
35:02
Speaker 3: for saying it, be like, I'm actually really working on
35:05
Speaker 3: myself to not weigh myself to not like you know,
35:08
Speaker 3: entertain body comments. So like, let's give each other a
35:10
Speaker 3: compliment right now, that's like something different. I'm going to
35:13
Speaker 3: tell you right now it is so freaking good to
35:15
Speaker 3: give you this hug, or like your smile is just
35:18
Speaker 3: like the best thing to walk in on and let
35:20
Speaker 3: them do it back for you so that you kind
35:21
Speaker 3: of like break the cycle with them. Again, I've not
35:24
Speaker 3: practiced this in real life. I might like, I might
35:27
Speaker 3: like have a little panic when I actually do it
35:29
Speaker 3: in the real but I there have been times where
35:32
Speaker 3: I've I've witnessed friends and this is where it gets
35:34
Speaker 3: a little dicey, And I've asked people this question as well,
35:37
Speaker 3: like what do you do when you see somebody who's
35:38
Speaker 3: obviously struggling or avoiding food or struggling with their body,
35:42
Speaker 3: And a lot of times there's not a lot you
35:44
Speaker 3: can do. You could just continue to be there. I'll
35:46
Speaker 3: be honest, the best people that have been on my
35:49
Speaker 3: journey were the people who never commented on my body.
35:52
Speaker 3: At either side. It drives me nuts because my husband
35:54
Speaker 3: will never make a body comment. So when I was
35:57
Speaker 3: like really thin, I was like constantly trying to bait
35:59
Speaker 3: for them, he wouldn't do it. And then when I
36:02
Speaker 3: was like pregnant, I'm like, don't you love like a bum?
36:03
Speaker 3: But he was just like, yeah, okay, it's a bump,
36:06
Speaker 3: Like that's your body's grinding like it's supposed to do.
36:08
Speaker 3: But then when things were changing in a way that
36:10
Speaker 3: society would deem as negative, it was so nice to
36:13
Speaker 3: have somebody that the absence of a comment wasn't new
36:17
Speaker 3: or abnormal. He would just always be like, you are
36:20
Speaker 3: just the most beautiful person. I love you so much,
36:22
Speaker 3: You're so great to be around. He would say the
36:25
Speaker 3: same comments at fifty pounds heavier that he did fifty
36:29
Speaker 3: pounds thinner, And it always has made me feel so
36:32
Speaker 3: safe and so secure. And so I think that when
36:36
Speaker 3: I see people who are clearly struggling or making comments
36:39
Speaker 3: for themselves, there's part of me that's just like, you
36:42
Speaker 3: don't need me to tell you how wrong you are
36:44
Speaker 3: right now. You need somebody just to not make a
36:46
Speaker 3: comment too. You need somebody to just love you through this,
36:49
Speaker 3: because I know that's what I needed through it. But
36:51
Speaker 3: if it were directed at me, I would probably redirect it.
36:54
Speaker 1: Okay, I think I have to get more comfortable with
36:58
Speaker 1: stating boundaries. I just feel like so awkward doing it
37:01
Speaker 1: in person.
37:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think when we say the word boundary,
37:05
Speaker 3: it feels so argumentative. And I think that what I've
37:10
Speaker 3: learned is that boundaries make good bridges to good friendships.
37:13
Speaker 3: And when there are people that you genuinely care about.
37:15
Speaker 3: It it was like a casual encounter. I'd be like, whatever,
37:17
Speaker 3: I'm not going to have this again. But if it
37:20
Speaker 3: was if I was doing something that was causing harm
37:21
Speaker 3: to a friend of mine. I'll give an example. I
37:24
Speaker 3: had a friend who we work on different projects together
37:26
Speaker 3: and we also are really good friends, and I was
37:29
Speaker 3: texting her about a work thing and she replied to
37:31
Speaker 3: me and she was like, actually, do you mind if
37:34
Speaker 3: I create a boundary here? Just because I'm really trying
37:36
Speaker 3: to separate work from life, and because this was a
37:39
Speaker 3: work text, it brought me into work at a time
37:42
Speaker 3: that I wasn't working. But of course I'm going to
37:44
Speaker 3: open it because I love you and you're my friend.
37:47
Speaker 3: Would you mind popping these sort of questions into She's like,
37:50
Speaker 3: I'll offer a couple solutions. We can do email, or
37:53
Speaker 3: we can do WhatsApp. We can have a WhatsApp. So
37:55
Speaker 3: we downloaded WhatsApp for work related questions only, and our
37:58
Speaker 3: friendships stayed in our text message And I thought that
38:02
Speaker 3: was the only thing that that did was teach me
38:04
Speaker 3: how to show up for her. More had nothing to
38:06
Speaker 3: do with me doing anything wrong or being a bad friend.
38:09
Speaker 3: It was more about the fact that I now could
38:13
Speaker 3: build a bridge to being a better friend for her
38:15
Speaker 3: based on her needs, not mine, And that has always
38:19
Speaker 3: like taught me that when you voice what you need,
38:22
Speaker 3: people want to show up like I do how much
38:24
Speaker 3: I would love my husband giving me a roadmap on
38:26
Speaker 3: how to love him like I would love that, And
38:28
Speaker 3: we have that for ourselves. We just have to offer
38:31
Speaker 3: it up, right, So it is in like I just
38:33
Speaker 3: need some space or I just need some time where
38:35
Speaker 3: I just need you to like write down those words,
38:37
Speaker 3: or like my friend did, she created a boundary with solutions,
38:40
Speaker 3: and it's only made our friendship stronger because I felt
38:44
Speaker 3: so honored that she told me her boundary, because it
38:47
Speaker 3: didn't feel combated. It was like she was teaching me
38:49
Speaker 3: how to love her, and that felt so special to
38:51
Speaker 3: be a part of.
38:52
Speaker 1: If I'm honest, that's a great example. Thank you for
38:55
Speaker 1: sharing that. So when filters came out, I played with
38:59
Speaker 1: them and one day I was sitting on my couch
39:02
Speaker 1: Instagram storing and I thought to myself, why do I
39:06
Speaker 1: like my face better with this filter? And I stopped
39:09
Speaker 1: using them. So I don't use filters. It's a personal choice,
39:12
Speaker 1: like I don't have money when other people do. But
39:15
Speaker 1: it felt like actually an act of self love to
39:17
Speaker 1: say I don't use filters, yeah, because I like my face. Yeah,
39:22
Speaker 1: you use filters. How do you feel?
39:24
Speaker 3: I don't like the face altering ones, but I do.
39:27
Speaker 3: For the longest time, I really like, if I'm showing
39:29
Speaker 3: like a part of my home, I love a filter
39:31
Speaker 3: because the cameras are too harsh. It makes everything look
39:33
Speaker 3: so dark and dreary, and I'm like, I want people
39:35
Speaker 3: who look at my home and my space to feel
39:38
Speaker 3: light and bright and like warmth and everything. So the
39:41
Speaker 3: filters really create that like impact. Right. But when it
39:44
Speaker 3: comes to like showing my face or showing myself, like,
39:47
Speaker 3: I've really moved away from that as much as possible,
39:50
Speaker 3: only because, similar to you, I did find myself like
39:54
Speaker 3: when it was just me and just my face, I
39:55
Speaker 3: was like whoo, or I was constantly disclosing when it
39:58
Speaker 3: was a filter and when it wasn't, as if it
39:59
Speaker 3: was like I look this good without a filter, Like
40:03
Speaker 3: no filter needed it that such a thing like you
40:05
Speaker 3: all need one. I don't like. I just started being
40:08
Speaker 3: like I just honestly genuinely like showing up more as myself.
40:12
Speaker 3: And then but I also again like there are certain
40:15
Speaker 3: people who love a filter, and I also just hold
40:18
Speaker 3: a lot of space for that because again just because
40:20
Speaker 3: I'm three steps ahead doesn't mean that I'm not like
40:23
Speaker 3: here to like be there for you too write. And
40:26
Speaker 3: I actually ended up working with developers and we came
40:28
Speaker 3: out with a photo and video app. Now this is
40:30
Speaker 3: for like creative content, but not for like Instagram stories.
40:33
Speaker 3: But they kind of intersected these things where like filters
40:37
Speaker 3: what they used to be, or not filters what they
40:38
Speaker 3: are now. Filters used to be just like color changing,
40:42
Speaker 3: you know, creating an impact black and white colors and
40:44
Speaker 3: things and CPOs. And now it's like you have a
40:48
Speaker 3: whole new nose and face and eyes and everything is
40:51
Speaker 3: entirely different. And so I created Pink Papaya app, and
40:55
Speaker 3: its whole ethos is create, don't correct. So because every
41:00
Speaker 3: single photo app that you download oftentimes has these like
41:05
Speaker 3: ability to edit your face or body, and so I
41:08
Speaker 3: wanted a space that people could still create, and they
41:11
Speaker 3: could create amazing photos. Create if they had a photo
41:15
Speaker 3: that was way too blue toned, you could come in
41:16
Speaker 3: and add that warmth. We have like a retro filter.
41:19
Speaker 3: We have ones that like add snow in the winter time,
41:22
Speaker 3: like fun creative stuff that removes you changing what you
41:26
Speaker 3: look like, and also acknowledging that if I just created
41:30
Speaker 3: blanket filters, somebody with a different skin tone from me
41:32
Speaker 3: might feel like it's actually not authentically them. So we
41:35
Speaker 3: added a skin tone filter in it as well, so
41:37
Speaker 3: you could match it to what felt most authentically you,
41:40
Speaker 3: so that it was all about, at the end of
41:42
Speaker 3: the day, creating, not correcting. So as much as I
41:46
Speaker 3: was like, I see the problem, but I also want
41:49
Speaker 3: to be part of the solution. And I also wanted
41:52
Speaker 3: people who were creators to have or like want to
41:54
Speaker 3: be creators, to have access to things that were previously
41:58
Speaker 3: took a skill set. There's a lot of problems for
42:01
Speaker 3: our kids coming through having the age of filters and
42:04
Speaker 3: like that snapchat face thing that is now a real
42:07
Speaker 3: diagnosed thing. But I think it's also a great time
42:11
Speaker 3: to just have these conversations while holding a lot of
42:14
Speaker 3: space for other people going through it.
42:16
Speaker 1: Okay, I always do a little rapid fire before. Okay,
42:19
Speaker 1: so what is one affirmation that you tell yourself?
42:22
Speaker 3: I actually pull affirmations out of a jar almost every day,
42:26
Speaker 3: and I don't have one in front of me right now.
42:28
Speaker 3: Oh I do, I do? I do? I do? I do? Okay,
42:30
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna read it. I have a friendship jar
42:32
Speaker 3: with my friend Bailey, and we do this. You are
42:35
Speaker 3: deserving of the same happiness you want for others. So
42:38
Speaker 3: there that's mine for today. I deserve that.
42:41
Speaker 1: Yes you do. That's so nice. What's one place you're
42:44
Speaker 1: really eager to travel to? Disney Land our World?
42:49
Speaker 3: I just did Land. I'm going on at Disney Cruise
42:51
Speaker 3: in like three weeks, and then I'm going to Disney
42:53
Speaker 3: World at the end of summer. We paid for this
42:55
Speaker 3: like three years ago, and I'm so excited too. So
42:58
Speaker 3: maybe that's the splurge.
42:59
Speaker 1: I was going to ask, if you splurge on something,
43:02
Speaker 1: what degree are.
43:03
Speaker 3: Literally costing me twenty thousand dollars? And because I'm bringing
43:07
Speaker 3: my whole family and my parents. My parents took me
43:09
Speaker 3: in when I got divorced for a year and a
43:11
Speaker 3: half and I always have been like, I want to
43:12
Speaker 3: take them on a trip. So we're bringing my parents,
43:14
Speaker 3: We're bringing the baby, we're bringing my older three kids,
43:17
Speaker 3: and then ourselves was eight people with flights down to
43:20
Speaker 3: Disney for a week, staying on resort like bells and whistles.
43:23
Speaker 3: I just won't want My oldest is going to go
43:25
Speaker 3: to university like in the next few years. This might
43:28
Speaker 3: be my last shot to do a trip like this,
43:31
Speaker 3: so we gotta do it.
43:32
Speaker 1: We're doing it amazing. Yeah, what's a movie you watch
43:36
Speaker 1: when you're said the notebook.
43:39
Speaker 3: I'm one of those weird people that when I'm sad,
43:41
Speaker 3: I watch sad things because it gives it somewhere to
43:44
Speaker 3: release into. I don't watch things that are like happy,
43:47
Speaker 3: if that makes sense.
43:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like, when.
43:49
Speaker 3: I'm anxious, I'll watch a scary movie because then I
43:51
Speaker 3: my scary go into something that's not me.
43:54
Speaker 1: What is the best birthday celebration you've had?
43:57
Speaker 3: Okay, So my friend Arianna, she did an entire scavenger
44:01
Speaker 3: hunt for me, and that at each first. So it
44:04
Speaker 3: started with the clue and that clue when she was
44:06
Speaker 3: with me she was driving around. That clue led me
44:08
Speaker 3: to a destination that was like one of my favorite places.
44:11
Speaker 3: And so we go to that first destination and one
44:12
Speaker 3: of my friends were there, and then it was like
44:14
Speaker 3: that she's holding a clue, and then that friend led
44:17
Speaker 3: into the next one and the next one, and then
44:19
Speaker 3: it ended up my friend had my friend Billy had
44:22
Speaker 3: flown in from Vancouver and she was my final surprise,
44:25
Speaker 3: and then we just like celebrated the day and had
44:27
Speaker 3: this whole birthday done. But it was the process of
44:30
Speaker 3: like each spot that was a favorite of mine had
44:32
Speaker 3: a friend waiting there with another clue, so I knew
44:35
Speaker 3: I was like collecting people and then became this like
44:38
Speaker 3: train of a party. It was my birthday's New Year's Eve.
44:41
Speaker 3: So if you ever have a birthday that's like on
44:43
Speaker 3: a holiday, it's really hard to feel like that day
44:46
Speaker 3: is special for you. It's usually a party with like
44:47
Speaker 3: a banner up somewhere this as happy Birthday. And that
44:50
Speaker 3: was like one of the first times. My parents are
44:52
Speaker 3: probably so mad at me for saying this, but like
44:54
Speaker 3: because they probably tried so hard to make my birthday
44:57
Speaker 3: so special. But that was so cool because I knew
45:00
Speaker 3: how much it meant for everybody to be giving up
45:01
Speaker 3: that New Year's for themselves and also to like, I
45:05
Speaker 3: don't know, like make it a whole day thing. It
45:07
Speaker 3: was just the coolest thing ever.
45:09
Speaker 1: That is so fun. Ariana When's Friend of the Year, Yeah,
45:12
Speaker 1: it's amazing. What's a book that you've read that should
45:15
Speaker 1: be required reading?
45:17
Speaker 3: Oh, that's such a good one. I'm a huge, huge
45:20
Speaker 3: fan of Glennon Doyle. I have followed her since she
45:23
Speaker 3: was a blogger, like a mom blogger, back in the
45:27
Speaker 3: early two thousands. I guess Untamed is such a good book.
45:30
Speaker 3: I really really love that one. And I love it
45:32
Speaker 3: because that one and one hundred Essays That'll Change the
45:35
Speaker 3: Way You Think by Brianna west or Wist so good.
45:38
Speaker 3: I love. I'm not a kind of unless it's a
45:40
Speaker 3: fictional book. I can't sit and read self help books.
45:43
Speaker 3: It's almost too much. So I love to have books
45:47
Speaker 3: that you can pick up and read an essay or
45:49
Speaker 3: a chapter and like have something impactful and then move
45:52
Speaker 3: away from it.
45:53
Speaker 1: I have a card deck of fifty two questions for
45:55
Speaker 1: deeper conversation, so we do want it random. They're in
45:58
Speaker 1: the mail, they're on their waiting. I did do the
46:02
Speaker 1: customs form right, so they're late.
46:04
Speaker 3: Otherwise you would have had them.
46:06
Speaker 1: It's fine, Okay, you want to stop, stop, okay, Ooh
46:11
Speaker 1: what's the story behind your name? What's your nickname? And
46:14
Speaker 1: who gave it to you?
46:15
Speaker 3: So the Bird's Papaya is actually because when I started blogging,
46:20
Speaker 3: I had a toddler and a newborn and my aunt
46:24
Speaker 3: actually owned a chocolate shop at the time, and she
46:26
Speaker 3: named it after her two sons, my cousins their nicknames.
46:29
Speaker 3: So I was like, oh, that's cool, I should do
46:32
Speaker 3: the Birds Papaya. Because my baby at the time, who
46:35
Speaker 3: is now fourteen, her nickname was Bertie, and my daughter
46:38
Speaker 3: Maya was nicknamed Maya Papaya. So it became the Birds
46:41
Speaker 3: Papaya based off of my two girls, and like the
46:45
Speaker 3: origins of me starting something that was very much around
46:49
Speaker 3: done at the time, I was very lonely in motherhood.
46:51
Speaker 3: So it's as much as I've in a lot of
46:53
Speaker 3: ways grown away from the name, it still anchors me
46:56
Speaker 3: to why I did it in the first place. So
46:58
Speaker 3: I love it.
46:59
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Well, also, your son must really be mad.
47:02
Speaker 3: Oh he's pissed. He's like, why am I not in?
47:04
Speaker 3: Oh my sorry, you weren't there. You weren't there, but
47:06
Speaker 3: he was.
47:08
Speaker 1: What is the smartest decision you've ever made?
47:11
Speaker 3: Oh? Okay, therapy, mm hmm. If I have to take
47:16
Speaker 3: one that makes the most impact into everything else, it's that. Yeah, therapy.
47:23
Speaker 3: Thank you, Sarah, thank you, this is such a cool conversation.
47:27
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
47:55
Speaker 1: All Right, today is a good day, to have a
47:57
Speaker 1: good day. I'll see you next week. Pas