Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Peter Griffiths about his choice of Vengeance of Varos (2/2)

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Talks to Peter Griffiths about his choice of Vengeance of Varos (2/2) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:44
So this is Joe Ford's podcast and I am his guest, it's pretty
0:48
Griffiths from flight through entirety and our, I am giving
0:52
the intro to the episode. I hope that you enjoyed that
0:55
you're in very safe hands or maybe I don't worry.
1:00
So we are watching the episode 2 of Vengeance on Paris today, and
1:04
I think it's safe to say that. We both really quite enjoyed
1:06
absurd one. So that's Soldier.
1:08
I think everyone. Brilliant author.
1:11
And that's you know what? Generally speaking I've noticed
1:14
over time that those who stories tend to start really well and
1:19
very often and not terribly, but just not fulfilling the promise
1:25
of the episode where I Leandro Invasion recently, which starts
1:28
extremely well and I would say terribly, then terribly.
1:33
Yeah. We're so I think this one is
1:34
just consistently good throughout, but even possibly
1:37
count on the fingers of one hand, The number of classic
1:40
Doctor Who stories where episode 4 is better than episode 1.
1:44
And razani. And so on is one curse of
1:47
fenric, is one has been real remembrance.
1:52
Remember it's one is pretty perfect, it's great.
1:55
That they may be equal equal quality Iron.
1:58
I could think of some others if you gave me some time but it's a
2:03
difficult Prospect. It is so I think is as good as
2:07
episode 1. Yeah.
2:09
I know, but I just think it's really easy to sort of what
2:13
really easy some story. At the same terribly as well,
2:15
but it is easy to go in with a lot of promise, and a lot of
2:18
excitement, and a lot of scares and a lot of humor and then
2:23
somewhere along the line and especially of termination script
2:25
writing, it's like, well, I'm bored with this now.
2:27
Let's just, let's just tie it up and I'll start the next exciting
2:30
thing, you know? Yeah.
2:33
Well, I think Phillip Martin, he does actually, I'm good job of
2:35
kind of keeping the momentum going and actually has enough
2:40
story for to 45 minute episodes. So even though the doctor and
2:44
Perry didn't arrive until the Midway point of last episode,
2:47
which is a fairly common theme with this season.
2:51
All of the stuff leading up to their arrival was entertaining.
2:53
The World building was really good and seems tweet who has
2:56
this thing. It's an Eric say would thing of
2:58
just plopping the doctor down into a world and having him
3:01
wander around rather than kind of make a material difference.
3:04
But I think in this story he is integral to the change that
3:08
comes to Varys and the doctor is center stage and that might be
3:12
one of the reasons I like it so much.
3:13
Yeah, I could. ISM about the doctor, a
3:15
rejoining, the action late. I don't think that's with these
3:20
45 minute episodes. I'm not necessarily a bad thing.
3:23
No, I think in the two doctors it gives us a chance to
3:25
established a starry to see me sha Chi, and they're really
3:29
Vivid characters is revelation of the Daleks.
3:32
You've got practically a whole episode where they're
3:34
establishing that corner of the universe, really vividly as
3:37
well. But then other thing is always a
3:40
problem I think is when you've got one story after another and
3:43
they're not joining. About half an hour and I will
3:46
also show about, you know. Yeah, I think the problem might
3:49
actually be timeless and, you know, I'm a fan of Timeless as
3:51
we discussed last week, but they do can't hang around in that
3:55
Tardis an awful long time before they get out and meet pulled
3:58
arrow and maybe attack the seidman and mark the Ronnie had
4:02
it, right? They just put the doctor into
4:04
the action. Are you kidding me and Tom Nash
4:07
got those great sequences where there on the seat belts, going.
4:09
Woo, hoo around the card is gone.
4:11
So well, I know that you're saying that way.
4:14
Tongue in to take. Well, I mean, they're already
4:24
firmly entrenched into the action.
4:26
Now I will count as in if you're ready.
4:30
I am ready. Thank, you know, he lets go then
4:33
in five, four, three, two, one off we go Season 22 episodes for
4:43
season on a roll with I think, you know, at this point I mean,
4:47
possibly, I'm not a huge fan of tech of the seidman, but I think
4:52
once it reaches ventures of hours, you've got three quite
4:54
entertaining stories in a row and, you know, for me, it
4:57
becomes 5 because I like, time lash, but I understand for most
5:00
people in might hit a bit of a dip there.
5:02
What do you think about the 45 minute episodes?
5:06
I think that they possibly came out of the wrong way by making
5:10
it one extended 25 minute episode 20, And then putting
5:15
three episodes of place in two episodes.
5:18
I mean, that's not exactly how it breaks down, but it feels
5:20
like they did a lot of World building, which they would have
5:23
just jumped into the action on, in a 25-minute story.
5:26
So, even though I like it, I think there was some tinkering
5:28
with the format which needed to be done and that might have been
5:31
done in the original season, 23 wwoof, although, it does seem.
5:35
It would have been. I mean, Joe go back to time last
5:38
year, again, I think what you just said there about having the
5:40
same sesar and then three episodes crammed into the last
5:43
one that definitely And Lee feels like that there.
5:45
It's like what we've got the Clone plot.
5:46
We've got the band raw Invasion plot, we've got the h.g. wells
5:49
plot, you know, it's all gone on and cut it now.
5:54
It's yeah. No, that's true.
5:56
And then, you know, unfortunately Timeless Peter's
5:59
house about 10 minutes from the end, so it wasn't
6:01
well-structured all around. Okay, so we're heading into the
6:05
Acid Bath scene. Now, the doctors been put on a
6:07
gurney and Terrible Things are about to happen.
6:11
So are you going to be sorry, go on.
6:13
This is a really strong theme for Perry.
6:16
I think look at she actually launches herself at the governor
6:19
and tries to hit him. She's properly disgusted by the
6:23
versions was quite quite strong stuff to her.
6:26
Do you know much about what was cut out of the story?
6:31
I have seen it in the dim distant past Because I've I was
6:34
watching it with the info text this morning, and it was saying
6:37
about scenes that were never recorded, but were originally
6:40
scripted. And there's a sequence at the
6:42
end of this because you said, this is a strong episode for
6:44
Perry and the governor, I think you're right, especially later
6:47
on where she's the one that's trying to convince him and now
6:50
back to make a difference and right, at the end of the story,
6:55
she says to her, you're welcome to stay if you want to and she
7:01
considers it for a second and then sort of, he goes to give
7:04
his address and then she sort of turns away.
7:07
So I think they were looking. They were looking like the
7:09
daughter of Peter Davison. Remember, all those happy
7:22
memories. Exactly.
7:29
This is quite strong as melting people in acid by laughs, isn't
7:33
that? But it's quite funny.
7:34
I look at properly disgusted with everything that's going on
7:42
around them. And so Solaris you agents of a
7:46
more bar. I don't even know what that is.
7:49
Really what he says show some respect cover days.
7:54
Give everyone should give a reading on the acid.
7:58
Okay, so I was going to say I love this bitch, just like
8:03
Edison like this bit. I love this video.
8:06
I don't really, I don't really love it.
8:08
I think it had the potential to be very Darkly funny but it's
8:12
actually a little bit awkward. I think in the way that it's
8:15
staged, it's kind of one of the rods that is used to beat the
8:19
ERA with. But it's very clear that the
8:22
doctor pushes no one in the guard is dragged by the other
8:27
guard in. And the thing that has the
8:29
stinging it, is that the doctor makes a crack About it.
8:32
I don't mind that I think it's fine.
8:35
I think the wisdom of the scene is a little bit debatable and
8:37
it's all a bit too Jolly with the plinky plinky music.
8:41
And so it's it's got all of these things happen.
8:43
You're not quite sure what to take away from it, but I think
8:46
it's fine. I think it's quite funny, but I
8:48
do understand why it doesn't sit well with people, but I think
8:51
they do this a couple of times this year, this sort of very
8:54
dark that there's a few moments in the two doctors.
8:57
And there's certainly a few moments in Revelation of the
8:59
Daleks where, it's I'm quite horrific going on.
9:02
And then, there is either funny music or a joke.
9:07
I don't mind that, that sort of that sort of uncomfortable.
9:11
Should I be laughing? Or should I be horrified?
9:13
I quite like that. It's the tenor of the season.
9:16
I think. I think one of the things that
9:17
it's a bit gross is that the guy is skin is all kind of red and
9:21
blotchy where people sell and you sort of think, oh, that's a
9:23
bit nasty, but I don't know. I actually think it's quite a
9:28
fun scene I've made by the the staircase that he goes up.
9:33
Is so rickety. That is not going to hold Colin.
9:35
Baker's way. Yeah, I'm bit disturbed.
9:37
By the big bomb shot. We got ya, Baba, bhot.
9:41
Yeah, but there's a scene in Revelation of the Daleks where
9:47
the doctor says. Oh, you turn them into food and
9:49
what they're talking about is really horrific, and then Gavin
9:52
Rossdale gross as that Zinger of a line where he goes, a term I
9:56
believe is called consumer resistance, which is hilarious.
9:59
And I'm like, what I'm supposed to be.
10:01
How am I supposed to be feeling about this scene because it's
10:03
sick? It's very funny.
10:05
Well, I think Revelation is the That they're going for all
10:09
season and I think it works sometimes, but more often than
10:12
not it doesn't. And I think in this story, it
10:15
actually works fairly often because it is a very funny
10:20
story, I find it very amusing and very engrossing.
10:23
I'm not put off by it at all. But I'm wondering if Graham
10:28
Harper's more in on the joke than Ron Jones is cuz I think
10:32
Ron Jones thinks he's directing a drama.
10:34
Whereas I know G Harper knows he's directing a comedy in
10:37
Relational ever seen. I've seen Ron Jones Doctor Who
10:39
episodes in no way. Was he directing a drama?
10:45
I think you made in no way. Was he directing.
10:48
Exactly. Oh maybe he was just a drama.
10:51
Wait there's no camera. It's pretty amazing.
10:57
Calling plays it perfectly and the camp is off the scale.
11:01
Let's have a little work but the execution is Colin Baker's
11:06
during his Phantom of the Audition here.
11:09
Is this scene is actually gold. I think Colin is in his absolute
11:13
element and is playing the doctor to the hilt.
11:16
I've seen you on the screens. You've returned from the dead.
11:22
I don't think, so. What is that gun?
11:27
It looks like he's made me dat from old cement.
11:31
Have you ever watched Doctor Who before?
11:32
Okay, every gun is made from gelatin and yeah, after you, I
11:38
did. I think so, but you always
11:43
marvelous. I don't know why can't,
11:56
I think I'll stop there. Okay, so here is another good
12:06
Harry. And the governor scene, I really
12:09
Like that she is the center of attention by all of the, all of
12:13
the villains are focusing on her because the doctors out of the
12:16
action at the moment. And so I think she gets quite a
12:17
strong role in the story. I think she's more responsible
12:22
for the climax. This story than the doctor, the
12:25
doctor murders, or he encourages John Dalton, murder quill, mm.
12:31
And what's his name, Forbes in his character.
12:35
Chief thank you very much, the chief there we go that's an
12:38
Eric's award named If Ever I heard one but doesn't actually
12:44
do anything. Does it really?
12:46
I think at the end of the evidence, the criticism of this
12:49
year that the doctor doesn't really have an impact on things.
12:52
I mean, the doctor sort of gets people out of Jeopardy.
12:55
But Perry is the voice of Morality In this story and she's
12:58
the one who kind of affects change in the governor by just
13:02
her presence and reasoning with him.
13:04
And I think it goes back to what we were saying about Nicholas
13:08
playing it. Like a real person I think if
13:10
you had a companion who was that slightly more heightened
13:13
companion? If it was an esse or if it was
13:17
you know Zoe or something like that, it wouldn't feel quite as
13:19
real whereas Perry is believable as someone who would be
13:22
horrified by the things that are happening and want to talk
13:26
people out. But want to say what are you
13:27
doing here? I love that moments.
13:29
Just that it was she's trying to talk about the Tardis governs
13:32
but she's like, the bearings are something like she did.
13:35
Actually what she told about when she, when she has special
13:38
metal on the governor turns and looks at her anything I look at
13:44
say, what about real? Love it.
13:48
I mean, I'm loving it as well. These things are amazing.
13:50
But again, what kind of people are you morality?
13:56
We've got the nappy men on the screen or on them later.
14:00
Absolutely. Yeah, hot in here.
14:02
Honestly, these nappy men, I just really I like the fact that
14:06
in between the big banner Productions, you know, you've
14:08
just got repeats of the nappy men fighting over this.
14:12
It's great. You think you said you spent a
14:15
bit of time in England? You know.
14:17
That's exactly what happens. So they put on the procedure
14:20
shows and we get a load of repeats in between obscene
14:22
Channel 5, you know yeah God help you.
14:27
I'm interesting programs coming out of that Arthur.
14:30
Answer is amazing. Yes, yes go on.
14:35
But the the power play between these two is really it's, it's
14:42
tremendous. I really love the dynamic that
14:46
goes on between and here is one of my favorite scenes and the
14:48
story and: plays it, so funny. So he's giving good lines and
14:53
the thing about, you know so would I have been if I'd asked
14:56
for one singer is, that's a great line.
14:59
Yeah, it's great. Straight after he comes out and
15:01
says the guy to always get the priest parts.
15:03
That's amazing. Well, I'm wondering then.
15:05
You know what? People always level a quest for
15:08
excellence, doctor in series one that he always gets somebody
15:12
else to affect the climax of the story that maybe this is what's
15:18
happening here. Obviously, Colin Baker makes his
15:20
stand here and the governor's they're listening Perry's.
15:23
Had a scene with the governor earlier on now that's present
15:26
for both scenes and he's the one that then shoot.
15:29
The thing down when the governor's being tortured
15:33
towards the end of the story. So maybe it's just the idea.
15:39
This is kind of the climate. So this is where the doctor
15:41
actually works his magic, and the dynamic begins to change.
15:47
So by eating rocks. Genuinely funny.
15:57
And look at this. Every seen, the chief just has
15:59
this smile plastered on his face.
16:03
What does he say to you? Is that the priest passed or so,
16:06
Allah says, do you always get the priest Parts?
16:09
Because he knows that's all that.
16:11
I mean, that's a really good joke.
16:13
And I have to say, since they were captured last episode, John
16:16
Garen doretta of been kind of surplus to requirements.
16:20
Well, I think maybe that this point they've seen the
16:22
performances are so A dialogue. Just haven't been the same
16:25
right, exactly where we made a mistake with Jon Dahl, putting
16:28
his shirt back on. There's a sequence later on you
16:31
know when it's the Phantom's of them all go here, come come
16:34
down, the corridor, come this way into the ass, it's whatever.
16:37
They're at their most convincing, you know, saying a
16:39
word maybe they'd actually face darling, activity face eyes and
16:44
teeth. You see this Garden the
16:45
background here in this sort of bondage gear that he's wearing.
16:49
There is a sort of a theme of that running through Doctor Who,
16:52
you know, we've got Guards. Maybe I think maybe you're
16:55
projecting that. Yeah, I think you could be
16:58
right. I mean this is very, you know,
17:03
seals guards in kind of their bondage leather outfit.
17:07
It's just beautiful this bit. Let me know when he's up on the
17:14
scaffolding with the Rope around his neck and he's giving a
17:18
speech. I mean these fields, they feel
17:20
like they're ripe for publicity pictures, you know.
17:23
They do, don't they? And actually, this, this whole
17:26
sequence is really good. It's mounted.
17:29
Well, which you can always say about Ron.
17:30
Jones is work and it brings all the characters together for the
17:33
first time. We haven't talked about the sets
17:36
by Tony Snowden and they come in for some criticism for sort of
17:40
being so Corridor based and they are a bit in advisedly brown.
17:45
Yeah, I think they're quite nice and claustrophobic and this
17:48
Gallows set is amazing. It's a theater set.
17:52
Its plead. We against us - space or red
17:55
drapes. If you like, it's just set
17:57
elements with no backdrop and so it underscores, the fact that
18:01
it's a TV critique in the script because the doctor is being
18:04
hanged in front of fake cameras. On an obvious set, were watching
18:08
that unfold on TV, it's genius course it even says on it when
18:12
it comes out with the with the news he's like you know, I'm
18:14
those it. How did you know?
18:16
It's like hello. Look at all this.
18:18
Yeah, yeah it's really great. I think this is maybe the best
18:21
scene in the story and The doctor is absolutely commanding.
18:25
He is like this. This is the point where I really
18:27
sat up and I was like, Wow, Colin Baker is the doctor, you
18:31
know, you could, you could transport this thing to previous
18:33
doctors, you can imagine Tom Baker or Jon Pertwee play John
18:36
Perry would be with me. I came to that planet was given
18:49
the governor. Then he's the scariest thing in
18:51
this whole story. I swear to God And Colin is
18:54
greatness when Colin is not delivering dialogue in his just
18:58
reacting. He's really good.
19:00
But, you know, you know, when they were going up the stairs
19:02
and the music was rising and the priest was like, you know, it Le
19:05
groupe really all of our oh it's, you know, it's really
19:10
great. I think it's so amazing and I
19:12
was so I really love the fact that they've got these kind of
19:14
monks in the background with the gals over there and they sort of
19:18
this swinging. The incense?
19:19
Are they like they do in the churches?
19:22
It's really good. It's got a lot of atmosphere,
19:24
this story and I like you know in this very on the subtle
19:28
society that is used to violence.
19:30
That is a very effective way of a listing information from
19:33
people is put them in a hangman's noose.
19:36
Yeah very much and it's quite clever.
19:38
I noticed your cameras won't broadcasting that lets that's a
19:41
clear and plot turn. But my warp is just as much,
19:45
isn't it about the construction of a narrative and, and
19:50
television and sort of fake hours as well, isn't it?
19:54
It is. I mean, some of that is in a
19:56
percent, I think. Colin Baker.
20:00
Look, well, why am I doing this? I want get someone.
20:03
Give me a reason as to why I'm, you know, abusing parent right
20:05
now. Director says, our script editor
20:07
screen is writer writer, says a stir.
20:10
It He's not doing anything in the background, he doesn't eat
20:18
through anything payout on this like that's not stab mandatory.
20:22
Look at this, though. Look at Martin Jarvis commanding
20:25
the scene here. He is great and I love this bit,
20:28
this incredible. I roll at the chief gives when
20:32
Martin Jarvis says, oh thank you.
20:34
That frees me up and the chief just goes.
20:37
So is this story less about the have to bring down this society
20:41
and more about? They just Have to convince the
20:43
governor to make a stand. Yes, it is, but the governor
20:49
also is a governor without power, and so the governor needs
20:52
to stand up to the system and have people helping him stand up
20:55
to the system to be able to effect change.
20:57
Otherwise, he's just a man trapped within it.
21:00
It's like he says in episode 1, he says, you know, they're
21:03
talkin about prisoners and he's your the governor.
21:05
He says, what is the difference? And there is a wonderful scene,
21:08
I'll probably the pivotal scene between the governor and Mal
21:11
Tack, and that's Martin Jarvis. And Owen teale, who are both
21:14
very strong actors where he's trying to convince him?
21:17
And he just said, I'm sorry I can't do that sir and steps
21:21
back, it's really, really good. But then you find out that he
21:25
actually has convinced him which is pretty amazing.
21:29
Only. Okay, well, so coming out of
21:32
there is a subplot, isn't there about sell one, the chief trying
21:36
to take over, yeah, which I do quite enjoy because it's in the
21:40
bill Shaban and Forbes Collins, just kind of, you know, out
21:43
acting each other on the screen. But I have to say, I'm not a
21:47
huge fan of this little subplot that's coming out with Perry and
21:50
oretta, it's sort of the story spinning, its Wheels.
21:52
A little bit. Just turning them into budgies.
21:56
Yeah. A reptile.
21:59
Well, something Simeon, perhaps something truly loads such as
22:03
you wait outside of. So I know we could just quote,
22:09
the whole thing couldn't wait. I could quote the sphere in my
22:12
sleep. I really could, it's not
22:14
terrible makeup. I think this is coming for a bit
22:17
of criticism, but they put a bit of effort into that.
22:19
Oh, Perrysburg. Makeup is pretty good.
22:21
I'm not that sold on a rhetta's. I don't know what that is,
22:25
makeup. She's a lizard.
22:31
She looks a bit like we just pretended that they're looking
22:42
down at things. They'll be convinced.
22:47
Every time the bill Shaban looks like he's masturbating and he's
22:52
just like I'm really excited. It's just because the tongue is
22:58
like flow. Sing a little bit for me.
23:02
I love him. Yeah, it's so comfy.
23:05
As, you know what? She looks like a racer every
23:07
single time, science fiction, tries to age up people with
23:10
makeup, they basically look like that, don't they?
23:12
X-Files did it Doctor Who did it with David Tennant?
23:15
You know, when they, when they put them in old age makeup, it
23:18
looks terrible. William Russell and power of the
23:20
doctor. Those companions together.
23:35
That's, that's a nice touch. Oh yeah, was, I mean you'd have
23:38
to have a Heart of Stone this Perry and her staff, it's
23:44
invented Jeopardy. That's what doctor who does.
23:48
And this is a story about Doctor Who and television nasty, so
23:51
it's fine. It's people watching don't do
23:53
and this scene is great, this scene with, you've got all your
23:57
key characters. Altogether and all playing it to
24:00
the hilt and backs. Look at cooler, he's very
24:05
excited about the science of all this, isn't he?
24:08
He is and the doctor is completely in charge of this
24:10
thing. I keep coming back to this
24:11
because it's a bit where he gets the gun, isn't it?
24:14
And he is following command in that point yet.
24:17
The doctor is utterly center stage and sometimes he's not in
24:20
this season. Sometimes calling isn't given
24:22
the material but this shows how well Colin does when he's got
24:25
good actors to go up against and I mean oh my God.
24:28
He Come to the campus bit of all with quibble.
24:30
Mmm, it's amazing. He puts his hand on his hip.
24:33
I am the section controller. Honestly, we have a mount.
24:39
This coulomb is yours. You've already done your
24:41
audition in this country. I don't know.
24:44
Here he comes. Look at that.
24:45
The hand on the hip. It's permanent.
24:58
Not a transient. Governor in the Twilight of his
25:01
Reign was from memory is so fun. So, I really like this set,
25:09
actually. I think it's a really
25:11
interesting set. I do like the ground.
25:14
It's very 1970s and there's something we can't always level
25:18
it 80s. Dr. Ho is very well lit as well.
25:20
I think it's nice that he's very atmospheric.
25:23
Those corridors work for me. It's not like Warriors of the
25:26
corridors, you know. But look at this, this is
25:28
amazing his face when the mask comes off and I don't mean the
25:31
scarring. I mean the cats are slips.
25:33
Look at that. They're amazing Jesus.
25:38
We lost doing that sniper, Sheriff.
25:40
Jack, Magnus Grill, pulling off a mask and something horrific
25:43
being underneath. If only we'd had the guy who
25:45
plays quillin playing showers check that would have improved
25:48
that story. No end, you know, he's done all
25:51
these experiments on himself and disfigured himself over time the
25:54
character not the other. Well, who knows?
25:57
I bet he absolutely got off on all of it.
26:00
It just seems that I've done. He, yeah, I think he did the way
26:04
that he launches himself at the doctor there and this Masek ah
26:11
you know don't you love as well? The father Colin Baker's doctor
26:13
is so unsubtle is like, now there's no time for that.
26:16
Then he just stopped blowing the shit out of the console.
26:20
I mean, did I did? It's quite a good thing I do.
26:22
Like the backs was in the background of that scene, just
26:24
kind of like looking Sleepy Eye that what was going on.
26:27
He doesn't give a shit, doesn't act to entertain, too pleased to
26:33
entertain to please. This video is how tactile
26:49
colonies with Nicola. And, you know, that's one thing
26:53
about no hanky-panky, insiders doctors, not supposed to touch
26:55
the companion, you wash this season, they're quite tactile
26:58
with each other, the end of this story.
27:00
Once they've been for all their trials and tribulations, he gets
27:02
her a hug, you know, where they actually do that frequently in
27:06
this season. In Revelation, when I come to
27:09
get my face, really delicately in a minute.
27:12
As she's getting up, he does. But also where he swings are off
27:15
the table. His hands, you have to be very
27:16
careful with the way they're placed.
27:18
Well, I haven't noticed, but I'll keep an eye on now.
27:22
So we have we have an Australian Cliffhanger.
27:24
Come out. Look at this hands under the
27:25
armpits. Oh yeah.
27:27
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So Australian Cliffhanger time
27:32
coming, right? Up all you have to do is walk
27:34
now Perry and cut it now. I can feel the momentum building
27:40
tools, the Cliffhanger now, you know, the swelling up to do.
27:45
Look, whenever things slow down, we'll get a bit of Eric and Etta
27:47
to throw in some pithy observations, so that's good.
27:51
Oh, you know what? The Cobra is such a thoughtful
27:53
actress. She's trying to hold her hands
27:54
like a bird. You sure that's what she's
27:59
doing. Very geeky.
28:08
Now I want a lit-up mind map in their corner of the set.
28:12
They're showing all the corridors.
28:14
This is lots to look at in this set.
28:16
Yeah, it's pretty good, isn't it?
28:18
And actually, speaking of Bleak seven earlier there is famously
28:21
an episode that or act the end of series a where there is a
28:25
secret map showing how they get to insource laboratory.
28:28
And it's basically some kind the props department has done it and
28:31
it's like two corridors, which one do we go down?
28:38
Exactly, maybe this one. And then that one.
28:39
Yeah, let's try both. Oh, bless you see.
28:44
We're back in the corridors, but I don't mind that because we
28:46
need some more tricks and traps the story.
28:48
Set it up, and it didn't really use it.
28:50
So, we're now back there, aren't they used to the spotlight as
28:53
well? In line will be e, get some good
28:55
value of a strobe light as well. He really does.
28:58
I love the lighting mindwarp. I think it's tremendous so maybe
29:02
maybe it's true. Maybe we did have to go through
29:03
those agonizing previous stories for him to learn his Eight,
29:08
maybe he watched him fight and went right next story, lights
29:12
down with those stories. The first stories he had ever
29:15
directed by of anything. Black Orchid was the first thing
29:17
ever director that used to be the second thing.
29:19
Ron Jones ever directed was time fly.
29:21
He was handed a script as an inexperienced director.
29:25
Look, when I want you to do much, you just got to try and
29:28
pull off, you know, a Concorde Landing in prehistoric Earth off
29:32
you go. Yeah, I mean, we both watched it
29:34
as half a step down from having no one directed.
29:38
A core of a step down. Okay, now we're in the buggy.
29:44
Yeah. See this is where I'll be.
29:45
Thank you. I think they could probably run
29:47
up that Corridor and catch up with that buggy.
29:49
Pretty girl quickly. The buggy has reverse.
29:51
It's pretty good. Look at this, John Doe drop the
29:55
gun at the end. Yeah, it does.
29:57
It's probably like they set up a little charge in the set as well
30:00
to show that the Hang on back to Eric and Lisa.
30:06
Yes, exactly. If your if your attention is
30:12
wandering, at the end of a four-part story, the climax is
30:15
coming soon. Don't you know that that is
30:17
another thing that was it is like if say you weren't too
30:20
invested in The Narrative of there.
30:21
So it hasn't got a good one, every sort of other senior
30:25
either going back to seal or you're going back to Eric aneta
30:28
or you go back to quill. Mm, well you're going back to
30:31
Colin. Baker's do there's always
30:32
someone there. There's worth watching, it's got
30:35
a roster. Entertaining characters and that
30:38
wasn't always the case scenario. If you went back to something
30:40
like Warriors, the Deep the characters are really tedious.
30:44
Like there's no one there becomes like, where is this is
30:46
just it's a series of grotesques and it's really fun to watch of
30:50
the two doctors and Revelation. The Daleks are the same, the
30:52
characters. Our roll call that grotesques
30:55
sha Chi Picking your nose.
31:10
You know how she is amazing. It's great in it people really
31:24
round that performance. Oh it's because they don't
31:27
understand what it's going for. It's too.
31:30
It's too sharply. Realistic for some people and
31:32
they can't handle it. That is one of the most amazing
31:35
performances in a tease. But I do wonder if some of its
31:38
accidental, but hey, it's so crabby.
31:42
I'm not going to make the claim that it's not, but what we got
31:45
on screen is amazing, and hate. She was in Emmerdale and some
31:49
might say she was equally. Great job.
31:52
Oh my God, hang out. Didn't she?
31:53
She got blown up or so I just fell down some stairs.
31:57
No, she got blown up in the Big Show home last or Jerry told us.
32:04
She was looking for the toilet. And she opened the door and the
32:07
whole thing blew up. It was quite an ignominious end
32:09
at line. She has when she goes, what is
32:11
he a fat bald - it's like you that that whole sequence is just
32:17
extraordinary. It's pretty amazing.
32:20
I mean as it goes being blown up in a show home is nothing
32:23
compared to syringing someone in the heart and then gets
32:25
terminated. I hate you.
32:30
Sorry. Something that was though that
32:32
part of Emma do was there were scenes with her and Jenna
32:35
Coleman and is Not that the doctor crossover, the we need
32:39
out there for it. Look what's happening.
32:42
On-screen, another lovely understated Melancholy scene
32:46
with Perry and the governor I think I have the most important
32:49
relationship in this story and certainly the most affecting the
32:54
way they're talking about. She says it's crazy cruel, and
32:56
he just says, it's barrows. That's yeah, that's very
33:00
pointed. Maybe they should have kept that
33:03
seen in me and I know I know she'd never was never going to
33:05
think about staying but the fact that they sort of develops a
33:10
rapport and he was basically saying, you know, I'll give you
33:13
a comfortable life Perry and, you know contractor.
33:17
Roulette, don't count your chickens, she could have been
33:19
out in this story. So they just going to export
33:21
site on seven of this and they're no longer going to
33:24
export. I watch apart quite work out the
33:27
way that this story ends. Because I mean, we'll get there.
33:32
But apparently, site 17 has been discovered somewhere else.
33:35
And so that means that it's more valuable here.
33:38
Surely it's more valuable if this is the only.
33:40
So, yes, I don't quite understand it, maybe I'm just
33:44
missing something. No, no, you're absolutely right.
33:46
I don't make any sense, but then these climax is frequently.
33:50
Don't this is it, this is a thing with owing to my Jarvis.
33:55
Yeah, Game of Thrones Owen teale.
33:57
The regulations are archaic and unworkable.
34:00
Ah, yeah, that's right. Even if you're chosen an
34:02
inquiry, it's great the way you sort of manipulates him here to
34:06
say, you know, if you're in my position.
34:09
Game over. Anything is actually appealing
34:12
to his logic. So he's possibly not a good
34:15
person, but he's saying that this can't be allowed to
34:17
continue. It's just a system that doesn't
34:19
work and it's nice. He shot there where Perry's
34:22
behind watching the whole exchange as well.
34:25
It's really good. And Martin Jarvis is so good in
34:26
close-up. He's such a subtle facial actor.
34:30
Yes, I'm up some would say he was wasted in the web planet and
34:34
invasion of the dinosaurs. You know some might say that but
34:37
not me. There's a wonderful bit
34:41
innovation of dinosaurs, you know, where these matches the
34:44
cup and then, he looks Peter miles like he's about to fuck
34:48
him. It goes, honestly, I've
34:52
interviewed Peter miles. I would say that, that was not
34:54
an uncommon occurrence on, so he's very eccentric, man, isn't
34:59
he? Yeah, he was a very exciting was
35:02
actually exceptionally lovely. Oh, obviously, he had my home
35:06
phone number and 4 months afterwards.
35:08
He used to phone up and You know, the half more one of my
35:12
flatmates would answer and he'd say is P2 there and they say
35:16
who's calling he said just tell him it's his new friend for
35:19
1995. Did you ever have a commentary
35:24
on the silurians now did not? He got so into it right?
35:28
He's going these disgusting. Reptiles try to take over my
35:32
base and Caroline John goes Peter, you know, it's not real,
35:35
right? He used to, he used to do jack.
35:39
Jazz singing and we went along and saw him at a picture
35:44
expressing Soho and a club in Richmond.
35:48
And it sounds like the most sanitized environment in SoHo.
35:52
You could possibly go through PCI Express.
35:55
There is actually there is a sort of jazz Pizza Express where
35:59
people frequently put on performances.
36:01
It's sort of famous for it and it was actually really nice.
36:04
I'm sorry that we didn't keep in touch because he was a lovely
36:06
eccentric actually 32 miles. so the best people in my life or
36:11
the weirdest ones you know but yeah sort of Does our fact,
36:35
I do that. Okay?
36:37
We'll say, oh, this is the bit where he presses the bottom for
36:40
a circus is so great. This they know I could quote
36:43
this endlessly, she launches herself at him, doesn't she's
36:49
like, hey, it's great. Look at that.
36:53
Oh, she hates him right there, the light that hits home the
36:57
most and the one I hear all the time, all the bloody time
37:00
because, you know, we're in a revolving door of politicians at
37:03
the moment in charge of the country is he's the worst
37:06
Governor since we had since since the last one you can,
37:11
what's the next one going to do any differently?
37:13
But also we never quite get to the heart of why Eric hates this
37:17
Governor so much. I think he's more of a quitter
37:19
man himself. Yeah, you know, I feel like what
37:24
Martin Jarvis is doing here in his chair riving about in pain.
37:27
This is I think you have to convince something absurd is
37:39
terrifying and that is talk to you in a nutshell there.
37:42
It is, as the reason he's such a great doctor.
37:44
I totally believe him, this kind of look at this.
37:48
This is great. And this line is amazing.
37:51
You've messed up the whole system that will be coming round
37:54
for you. Everything twice, and using
37:57
someone else's voting box both criminal offenses.
38:02
It's amazing. Really over when she, when she
38:06
turns up in time of the doctor, I was on the Ft for that
38:08
episode. And as soon as she was
38:10
mentioned, I came out with that whole life.
38:11
Line because it's just indelibly imprinted on my mind.
38:15
And, you know, that one thing she got in Dark Water as well.
38:19
I thought she was brilliant and they go after Danny pink dies
38:22
and then she's comforting Clara and she goes in with senseless
38:26
death and she's only in that one.
38:28
That's it. That's the only other time she
38:30
appears. I've forgotten all about that
38:33
actually. Yeah, she is terrific the same
38:35
addict actress. Did you ever see her in
38:36
Benidorm? You know, that she's the one in
38:38
the mobility scooter in Benidorm?
38:41
I'm aware. Rove it and I've had to say or
38:43
may be glad to say I've never seen it.
38:45
Well is it true to know that I haven't known to frequent the
38:48
old pants might write. So I went down to the pantomime
38:50
in Hastings and she was like the main staff.
38:53
She was the Fairy Godmother and I'm not kidding you.
38:56
Yeah, they had her own terrific. They are.
39:00
Don't they had her on a Wire? Yeah.
39:02
Floating across the stage on a Mobility Scooter would slit.
39:06
It was the most horrible thing I've ever seen.
39:08
She was great. I've never really seen much
39:11
pantomime I have a hunch appreciating time lashes, I do
39:14
that. I might enjoy it, given how
39:16
you've quoted quillin throughout this whole you're basically
39:18
watching and they British pantomime here, you know, just
39:21
with a few deaths thrown in. This is the every same Cuellar
39:26
is and he's pouting at something.
39:29
So now I have a few more, we have a few more tricks and traps
39:32
for the dr. John Dyer.
39:33
And Retta the Chandra Nandita having contributed much have
39:37
nothing at all. Really, thanks again, taste
39:41
Beyond someone's coming, he's coming.
39:45
It's the cannon old men in nappies alert.
39:49
I think this is the reason store is a video nasty.
39:51
Nothing to do with violence planning.
39:53
The next one. Because I've been eating it.
39:56
I don't quite understand that. Neither do I, and also a don't
40:00
know why. They're just old men, are they
40:02
meant to be like cavemen a cannibals or something because
40:06
it's a very strange realization of the idea.
40:09
All I know is that their families will got together.
40:11
So I know our sons going to be in Doctor Who, you know?
40:14
Let's watch it this week. There he comes.
40:17
It isn't happy. This is another really is a good
40:20
say and it's well lit. Again, I really like this sort
40:23
of void is there in the red zone.
40:24
On now. Yeah.
40:26
But that's like it doesn't look. He's got some depth to it.
40:29
They've pumped more price. I'll look, look here, there's
40:32
pit Baker on the left little known fact, they supplied their
40:38
own nappies. I mean it is also a fact that
40:41
pivot jamb bracket they did little brother and sister you
40:43
know, you seen a picture together.
40:46
I have seen re-interviewed them and they finished each other's
40:48
sentences quite well, honestly, he was so henpecked you here on
40:54
the comment. She goes shop, hip I'm talking.
40:57
I actually found that I have a lot of time for Pippin Jane and
41:00
I actually found that very cute. They were very like.
41:03
They've obviously been married for decades and decades and, you
41:08
know, she was very much the stronger personality but
41:11
henpecked, I don't know they really seem to complement each
41:14
other. Well, I have a lot of time for
41:16
the whole chapter of script doctor from Andrew cartmel point
41:20
of view, dealing with Pip and Jane Baker is gold.
41:24
Jesse. I've never read that because
41:26
they were putting up with none of his shit.
41:27
I was in. Yeah, but you're not really
41:29
writing a script is going out as is.
41:33
Well, I mean, I quite like time and the Rani, although rewrite
41:36
whites and helped it, there is a school of thought that Pippin
41:38
Jane would have been very good script editors for the show.
41:41
I don't disagree with them five. I had a conversation about that
41:44
when I did the time of the Ronnie commentary.
41:46
You know, you say about British pantomime, that essentially the
41:49
British man that their time in the Raleigh.
41:52
That's what you're going to say on stage.
41:54
The Rani is an exceptionally entertaining story that on the
41:57
face of it is not very good. It's a bit of a contrast.
42:02
Here we go. Peter last seen with gwilym in
42:04
the chief, want to hear them. Scream til I'm death with
42:09
pleasure. What a line that for me, please
42:16
usually it's putting on his gloves, you know, this couldn't
42:21
be more camp. He's enjoying it so much he's
42:26
just a sadomasochistic partly. It's how I wonder if you know
42:30
Eric's Awards in the stinks sometimes were more on the money
42:33
than we think because this whole sequence with coulomb here was
42:37
Rewritten by Eric's award. It wasn't in there at all this
42:40
whole speech, really. But it makes this scene I think.
42:45
Yeah. Eric was sitting in his office
42:46
in television Center saying of J.
42:48
And T I want to hear him scream until I'm deaf with pleasure.
42:53
Diseased limbs Twisted excruciating, Agony grimwade,
42:59
passing by, and going on with the vines, but I actually don't
43:11
care. He's not a source of doctor, is
43:14
he? That's be honest not and it's
43:15
never remarked upon that scene in amongst, you know, the Acid
43:19
Bath scene and all of that. But, you know, I think it's
43:22
quite a clever. Clever way out of it, it's just
43:24
morally. Is it really that great?
43:27
And now the story does just sort of ends in is like well this
43:30
information, latest information in mining facilities found on
43:34
bios capital or whatever it's called.
43:37
Exactly what some might say. The climax of the story was the
43:42
scene with the Gallows. Others might say the climax of
43:45
the story, was Martin Jarvis writhing around.
43:48
There isn't really a climax, it just kind of stops but you know
43:53
what? Delights me more never anything
43:54
is the fact that we get an entire scene of know, Bill
43:57
Chappell basically going curse is he's all performances curses,
44:04
isn't it? And also the whole water me
44:06
thing is really Lee honey where he says to the guard, be more
44:11
careful on the guard just kind of looks Amigos.
44:13
All okay, just you will wear the mantle of arrows.
44:20
So handsomely. I mean, these guards are great.
44:24
They are so stony-faced. Yeah, what an acting role was it
44:30
really just got stand there and look muscley.
44:33
I know, but we're very lucky that they weren't cast out of
44:36
the BBC's tubby middle-aged man. Yeah, that is true.
44:43
He's got the mirror there and he's just admiring himself and
44:46
that he thinks Nicola Bryant Sperry is you know I'll get hit.
44:49
It's so funny. This isn't like just come in to
44:53
confront him and all of these things have happened so that
44:56
they can basically go. Oh, anyway, yeah.
44:59
Yeah, and it's not particularly well setup.
45:03
Is that the end is nigh, which is a shame because it has been
45:07
well, no. But then you do get that last
45:09
scene, which is really amazing to come de.
45:13
It's amazing. But actually, you know, all you
45:16
really want is a confrontation with Sil and the good guys that
45:21
the doctor is sort of, you know, redeemed in the story.
45:24
So it does work as an ending really If we really needed the
45:30
government really very smart, we're taking over micrographics.
45:48
It ages things. Get anything, you know?
45:51
Absolutely. I any problems which appear on
45:56
the screen in the five, doctors, it's pretty incredible.
46:02
All right, so obviously I'm just watching this now.
46:06
I mean it's a really good ending scene.
46:08
I don't think it's particularly an effective and exhale.
46:11
I think it possibly could have had another draft but I am on
46:14
board with it and I think it's a nice and the story.
46:17
Everyone's smiling now is very strange after singing pain, so
46:20
serious, they're all they're all one wise.
46:21
Maldark got a smile plastered on you mentioned him a couple of
46:36
times, like I said, and so the doctor and Perry go for another
46:51
exciting Adventure. Where we go next to doctors, I
46:55
can throw them around me. Okay, some look at that.
46:59
That's amazing. Martin Jarvis.
47:01
He's not quite sure what to do with the handshake.
47:03
And after the dog to shake his hand, he sort of looks at it.
47:05
Like, he's not quite sure what to do next.
47:07
It's great. There has been on this sort of
47:09
peripheral detail. About just how appalling this
47:12
Society is that live you quoted where she says, they'll be
47:16
coming round for you? Both criminal offenses, you
47:18
know, like they're just how like, how are they?
47:22
How is this going to change? He's a nice.
47:24
Blows. Yeah.
47:24
But is he's literally got to reconfigure this entire Society.
47:29
Yeah, you kind of think that just because the governor and
47:31
maldark have decided that they're not terrible people and
47:35
everyone else around them decided, they're not terrible.
47:37
People probably know, I'm shocked Williams, got his own
47:40
little like fan club of torturers exactly what the
47:44
families of those people in the Acid Bath or, you know, the Nati
47:48
people's. It was more nappy people out
47:51
there, just ripe for takeover. She says, We're free.
47:57
And there's sort of like a smile, but none of them are
47:59
quite sure. Like there's this is terrific.
48:03
There's the ambiguity of this ending.
48:07
And the static on the score, that's just tremendous.
48:11
And I love the way that the end of episode 2, Echoes, the end of
48:14
episode 1. It's it's a really effective
48:17
story, this, it's it's got something to say, it's clever,
48:22
and at the end of it, you feel like you've watched something
48:26
that actually was well put together.
48:29
And, well, thought through, you can't say that of every story of
48:32
the era. And you know, Mom I got a little
48:36
bit muddy but it did have a point as well.
48:38
It had a message. Yeah.
48:40
That was just the color of the set well, okay, okay.
48:45
You don't know how this works but I'm going to explain to you
48:47
now live on camera. So at the end of the story.
48:50
Yeah, you have to both present three reasons to recommend this
48:55
story will go back one at a time.
48:58
Each you? Me, you me, you me.
49:01
So, and I'm, you've just thought of about Good reasons whilst
49:05
watching it but now you got to condense it and boil it down to
49:08
three off you go. Okay.
49:11
Number one quill, mm, it's the role you've been born to play.
49:22
Okay, well, that's a good reason.
49:23
Oh, I'm gonna say Colin Baker's Doctor, Who I don't think is
49:27
ever as rarely, as effective as he is here, as a sort of moral
49:33
force in the universe to come into this Dreadful society and
49:38
condemn it. And you're right, the bit on the
49:40
scaffolding is probably probably his best moment as the doctor.
49:45
I would agree with that one of them.
49:47
Anyway I think he's best. Acted moment is when Perry died.
49:51
Sighs and it comes back to the courtroom.
49:52
I really like that. So, but yeah, Colin Baker's
49:55
more, first reason. All right, back to you, I will
49:58
say, I don't think that Colin Baker is nearly as good in
50:01
season. 23 is, is in Season 22, because I think there's too many
50:04
oars in the water, trying to say you should do it like this.
50:06
You do it like this, he just should have followed his
50:07
instincts and he doesn't this story, and he's good.
50:10
So back to me, I'm going to say Martin Jarvis.
50:12
I think the governor is a rare Central, very nuanced character
50:17
and Martin Jarvis brings the best out of them.
50:19
I think the story will be much. Much less though without his
50:22
presence. My next one is going to be a
50:25
little bit controversial but given we've talked about it so
50:28
much the direction of Ron Jones which whilst it isn't always
50:33
perfect. And I think another director
50:35
like groundhog but perhaps could have done a much better job.
50:41
It's a lot better than what he's done before and there are some
50:45
really well stage moments in this.
50:48
It's a lot better than we had any right to expect.
50:51
Yeah probably probably it was a point where you go on Ron Jones
50:54
really he's directing this season again and then you watch
50:57
this and go home okay he's learning yeah it ain't terrible
51:03
back to you. Alright so my third I would have
51:06
to go with John Gibbs. I mean he delivers to amazing
51:09
scores this season and Maharani is brilliant score.
51:12
But this is also really good. It's sort of it's very 80
51:16
sounding a bit Peter how Lish? But it's very subtle as well,
51:19
and it's not overpowering, and it's got some nice action bits
51:23
and some nice atmospheric B. And the way that the music just
51:26
drops off at the episode 1, Cliffhanger and leaves that big
51:30
close-up on the doctor for a long time in silence, it's just
51:33
amazing. And my last one I was going to
51:38
say the end of both episodes. No, you weren't, this ain't the
51:43
nappy men? Oh well yeah, of course,
51:45
highlight aren't they? But actually I'm going to say
51:48
Philip Morrison who I think came into Doctor Who and he, you know
51:53
the a lot of Terrence Dudley's have been looking about for some
51:57
time now. You know, Johnny Burns people
52:00
like that. Who you know, I've got some
52:02
fairly interesting ideas but they don't really know what to
52:04
do with it. I Martin actually wants to write
52:08
a sharp intelligent script for Doctor Who and he, and he really
52:13
does, and he makes an impact because they have it back in the
52:16
next year. 2012 Time Lord went through a whole roll, call of
52:20
riots in that PJ Hammond and all sorts, but Philip Martin was
52:24
there from the beginning. And he actually had a script
52:26
that without its and it's because he's good.
52:29
And his current writer, say a word.
52:31
And, you know, others make the mistake of going to kind of, you
52:34
know, old Telly fantasy writers. You'd been writing in the 70s
52:37
like Terrence Dudley and people are there, where is Philip?
52:39
Martin is a current television writer, who just turned his
52:42
talents to Doctor Who, it's great.
52:44
It's very funny that J&T was as suspicious as he was of when
52:49
you're, why does he want to write for Doctor Who as if good
52:51
writers wouldn't want to write for Doctor Who?
52:54
Yeah. And it you can tell because
52:56
Jonathan Powell gives tremendous feedback and positive feedback
53:00
on both of Philip Martin scripts.
53:02
And you had to wonder how much of that was that he generally
53:04
thought they were good and how much he was just like, oh thank
53:07
fuck they've actually got someone who's a proper writer
53:09
in? Was it?
53:10
Jonathan Powell that put all the notes all over a mysterious
53:13
planet and it went backwards. That's right in Cruel.
53:16
Contrast he was like Philip Martin scripts are amazing.
53:19
Yeah so he was correct. Oh Peter that was absolutely
53:28
delightful. I enjoyed myself like a man in a
53:31
nappy. Okay, well then, I'm going to do
53:33
this on my heart that do this very often, but it's rather put
53:36
me on the spot. If you enjoyed it enough, would
53:38
you come back and do another one?
53:40
I absolutely would. It would be like a sequel.
53:43
I would be on my home planet and others have my race.
53:47
It would be great if I've hurt was he or will determine that
53:51
off-mike, but it just leaves me to say a massive, thank you for
53:55
that. It might surprise you to know, I
53:57
don't have people queuing up to do Vengeance on Varro's, you
53:59
know really oh my they're lost. I think.
54:03
Thank you so much for the invite and thank you for giving me
54:05
Vengeance on virus because it's a story which I really enjoy and
54:08
which I think is hard done by and it's great to find a fellow
54:11
fan of. This is more of us about
54:13
anything, you know. Yeah, I think so we just less
54:16
vocal what night and believe me the Timeless experience.
54:20
There's not many of them for chocolate.
54:25
They're it's always good to end on a laughs.
54:28
Yeah. It's like children of our on
54:33
excuse me. There's more than one Blake save
54:35
on the ends and I laugh like that.
54:37
There is Kelly your entire plants just been wiped out.