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What I've Learnt - Kevin Murphy · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: While recognised as one of the world's most respected and sought-after session hairstylists, Kevin Murphy has been at the forefront of fashion, runway editorial, and film for decades, within Australia and internationally.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: His work has graced the covers of all the major global print publications such as Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, Sports Illustrators Twimsuit Edition, Marie Clare, Vanity Fair, InStyle, and the list goes on.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Kevin has also worked with cinematic luminaries such as Baz Lehman on the legendary Moulin Rouge, and his celebrity client list has included Kate Blanchett, Naomi Watts, Selma Blair, Kylie Minogue, Enrique Inglesius, Heidi Klum, Rose Byrne, Miranda Kerr, and so many, many more.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was really the lack of products that performed as needed on shoots and runaways that forced Kevin to go beyond conventional hair products and look to advancements being made in skincare and thus Kevin.murphy, the brand, was born.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: He remains at the forefront of an industry he's deeply passionate about, from leading new trends in cut and colour through to developing groundbreaking products that are kind to the environment and the hair.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd like to welcome the wonderful Kevin Murphy, stylist and hairdresser, and he can tell us all about the journey that started really with one very um humble store off Chapel Street in the 80s in the heart of Melbourne.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: So Kevin, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Deb.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Nice to see you today.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can actually see you rather than not see you, which is a nice change.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yes, absolutely.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find yes, you're often not on, like are you often doing often not on camera sort of thing.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually have just come back from the gym, so I'm a bit grotty, but I do have a very good filter on.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a lovely filter, and well, you will tell me about this filter when we get off the zoom.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to do it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, you look like you're back in the 80s, so that's perfect because we can talk about no features whatsoever.
• 2:06
  unknown: Yeah.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do like the retro sunnies.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: They're there, I mean the retro glasses are fabulous.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love them.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, thanks.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just talk about, you know, you and I, we sort of grew up in the 80s.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: You started Cusco Murphy off Chapel Street, which I used to go to, it would be, dare I say, over 20 years ago.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it was really just, I had a young child and I used to go there every week for a nice sort of, you know, blow wave, and it was really the place to be, and we had so much fun.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was always full of energy.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a bit about how your career started and what brought you into the hairdressing sphere.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, it started like a long time before that because you start when you're 15.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it started when I was 15.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: I worked at like a couple of salons.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I knew that I really wanted to um have a salon in South Yarrow.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I opened up um Cusco Murphy in the middle of a recession.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was quite funny because the bank people said, like, what are you doing opening a salon in the middle of a recession?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no one's got any money.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I said, but they do have money for a blow dry.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: You'd be very, very surprised.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of the the salons that we're doing blow dries were not fashionable sort of thing, like those like old lady salons.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we were like, no, we're just gonna do these young, groovy blow dries.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And girls would come in.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: We did this thing called hair to an eyes.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it was every Friday night.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have we had people lining up the street, sort of thing.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So people had enough money to come and have a blow dry and just have their eyes done.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I loved it.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I used to come and do that, and it was a wonderful, it was a bit of a hub.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, just before you went out on a Friday night to the underground or wherever we were going, you know, um, to some of the nightclubs in the King Street district, wherever it was, it was just a really fun place.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: I thought there was a great energy.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just about as we often know.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Your hairdresser is about getting your hair done, is it really?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of champagne flowing in those days.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was it was a hedonistic time.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember them that much, to tell you the truth.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I know that we had a lot of girls that put their makeup on on a Friday night and they wouldn't wipe it off until Sunday morning.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think I might have wiped mine off, but I can't remember.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I actually think what what I do think you did capture there is, you know, it's called the lipstick concept, where when people are in a recession, they just still want to look good and they'll buy a lipstick, you know, and often it's a measure of the economic state.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: People can actually go and buy a lipstick or get their hair done, although we can talk about cost and how that's changed over time.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: But it is an interesting notion that people still want to look good and feel a little bit like they've been nurtured because really what your hairdresser does is nurture you.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're feeling, you know, down or feeling even like you want to look great to go on a date.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me a bit about how you because you always had a great team there too, I remember.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I I can't remember the whole team, but we had one guy, Edward Manny, who just specialized in really boffy blow dries.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he could get the he could get the hair the highest that I could have ever sort of seen.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, people didn't really specialize in blow dries, and I think that people didn't have a lot of money, but they needed to everyone wanted to have a party because everyone's like, I've got no money, I can't buy a fur coat, I can't buy a house, I'm not going on holiday, I may as well look fabulous because it's the last 50 bucks I've got in my pocket, sort of thing.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it was also, I think, coming to the hairdressers that you you offload, like whether you're having a haircut, whether you're having a blow dryer, you walk in, you offload all your problems, you walk out lighter, you look beautiful, and someone's told you how beautiful you look for the last hour, and that everyone shows for the next three days how great you look.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really good for self-esteem.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: I actually agree, and I think that's something that obviously has grown and grown in time, in you know, the way that the salons are run now.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: But you were one of the early sort of innovators in that, in that sense.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: But then beyond that, obviously, and and we'll talk about your packaging and the way that you grew your brand, but I think there's something to be said about people think, you know, there are certain people that go, well, why would you waste your money at the hairdressers?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, seriously, do it yourself, you know.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a lot of that because particularly with people with, you know, with limited funds, but generally you acknowledge that there it's more than that.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it is, it does help your self-esteem.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that that's something that um has changed over time?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think that that has just evolved and become more, especially with the Kardashians and the whole like you just do your hair no matter what?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think the way that people get their hair done has changed because now you used to go in every six weeks and get your roots touched up, or now you go in every like four, five, six months to get your roots touched up.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: But now there's also a whole generation of girls that don't wash their own hair, like they don't do their own hair.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So go to the um to the to the blow-dry bars, um, to those types of talents and just have a hairdo once a week.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that hasn't really changed.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it was funny because I'm talking to a um, she's a creative director of Mecca.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: They've had to um allow like a third of their retail space into service space.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: So they're doing like um makeup.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: So makeup now used to be like a special occasion where you would only get your makeup done if you're getting married, but now it's a weekly event.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: People are going for hair and makeup services as as an as the norm now.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: It used to be, okay, maybe I'll get married, I'll get my makeup done once, or you're a bridesmaid, or you know, you went to a school prom.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: But now it's like a regular thing where girls would come in, have their faces done and have their hair done and go out and look amazing.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's very true that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that having two daughters, I know that that's very much what everyone does.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And also my age group, everyone's, you know, if you've got a special occasion, it doesn't have to be, you know, the biggest occasion ever.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: It could just be something you want to look fab for.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and also it's not frowned upon people, I think, in a way, there's no judgment.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like, of course, if you want to go get your makeup done, do it.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's very much do you.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel there's a very big yes, is it the sense if you work hard or not, whatever, it you know, you are it's very acceptable to own the fact that you want to look good.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay, you know.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And also girls make their own money now, they should spend the money however they want.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not it's frivolous, but it's like, you know what?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I get a hundred people that tell me how great I look, that's worth its weight in gold.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's nothing better than someone telling you you look amazing.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh, thanks.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I have I'm gonna have a really great time.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think these days, you know, there's a bit of gloom and doom around.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: We sort of want to have a bit of a good time because we've been told the last couple of years that we're not allowed to have a good time, not allowed to go out, not allowed to see anybody.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're allowed to look good.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Why but get a blow wave because you can't go anywhere.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and I think we've had that for a while.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like get out there, look amazing, and you know, use the tools that are around you.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's people to do those services, it's a really great thing.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: I actually agree with you.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the interesting thing is that uh well, on that topic, I think that something that I wanted to raise with you is also though, the affordability and that there are some people that obviously it's become a little more inaccessible.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're charging between$85 and$125 for a blow wave now, most places.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is really insane.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, that's a lot of money because if you have that four times, let's say four times a month, you know, it's five, six hundred dollars a month.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the interesting thing is that it's become a very, it used to be, you know, maybe$40,$50, you get a blow wave, go and have, and it was very accessible.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that does concern me a little bit that there is, it has become such an industry that while I completely respect when somebody has a skill set, they should be paid for it, of course.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: But but I also get concerned about these young girls, or even, you know, women of my age who don't have, you know, some women I know who don't have that, many of them do have a lot of income, but some don't.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And what what's your thoughts around and who determines these changes in in costs?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to get someone to stand over you and work over you for a certain amount of time without sort of paying them some money.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So um if you're getting like a junior to do it, then then they're not getting paid as much, so they would be sort of cheaper, but they're not going to get as good a blow dry.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: But the way to get around that I would be is um I would buy like vouchers because they have vouchers where what you can do is you can buy a book of 10, pay in advance, and you get two for free.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that's a good piece of advice.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not affordable for everybody, but then not everybody needs to get it done every week as well.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe you should get it done every month.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know going to the salon every week is pretty extravagant.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know many girls that do it that much weekly, yeah.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say that I know girls who do it with voucher kits or they do it like once a month, sort of thing, when something's really happening.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm also in that that that what's it called, where you've got no money because of the the the banks taking it all.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: What are they doing now?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: The interest rate hikes, yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that one, the 14 interest rate hikes.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're referring to?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like taking like like easily, like taking away a hundred thousand dollars a year, basically.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that it's hurting for me.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: I can't afford stuff.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can't like, oh, I want to buy one of those vacuum cleaners that runs around the house.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, I don't know if I can afford it or not.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's really interesting.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's important too, because you know, the perception that you can be, which you are super successful in terms of what you've created, your, as I mentioned in the introduction, you know, your products are everywhere.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll get to that how you develop that brand beyond the labor, which I think is interesting because there's the labor of hairdressing and running a store, and then there's the offshoot, which is the brand of the product that goes out and is sold everywhere in supermarkets and hairdressers, as I mentioned in Europe, which I was quite excited to find.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I suppose even somebody in your position in the hairdressing game for so long, what you're saying is that you know it's it's hitting you hard with the increase in interest rates and also just the cost of living.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's uh it's hitting hard.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, it's I've I don't have any kids, so I'm okay, sort of thing.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got two um two French bulldogs, so they're very expensive.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually more expensive to put them into hospital than it is to put me into hospital.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know, yeah.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Pet insurance, I hope.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I hope for yourself.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, we didn't get it because my mom said, Oh, don't get it because um you don't get any money back, so it's not really worth it.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we didn't get it, and of course, I've got French Bulldogs and they can be very sick.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Poor little Lola.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they they're expensive, but they're not as expensive as children, sort of thing.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: But a friend of mine, a very sort of wise friend, I mean, this is a bit sort of naughty, she said, don't have children because as they get bigger, their problems get bigger.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of true.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually not untrue, but it's interesting because you're saying even without children, and even you know, the cost of living is biting someone like yourself.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit about so where did the so obviously you sold the Kevin Murphy products, which are which are iconic in terms of their design and they've been around forever.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Those beautiful shades, and you know, with the where did that, first of all, that was quite an innovative design.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Was that yours?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Where did it come from?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: How did you come to develop your own brand?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: It came from an idea that what it was was um we were we were trying to be um very conservative.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we wanted less plastic, we wanted less landfill.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I knew that like when you had those round bottles, you know, the round sort of Boston round bottles, well, you buy like a pint of milk and then you buy a liter of milk, and it takes up the same amount of space on the shelf, but one's got double the amount of stuff in it.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So what it was is the square package gives you less area, more mass, which I know sounds technical sort of thing, but it just means you can fit more into a tiner space using a square bottle than you can using a round bottle.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So what it meant was we were having less, less, uh, like say 45% less plastic.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: We were getting to put say the equal amount, or if not double the amount of product inside that small bottle.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that small bottle fits into a smaller chipper, which fits into a smaller space, which means less chipping, um, less uh less space on the on the shelf.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it was very neat and compact for your modern bathroom.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what I found was um my salon at the time, we had all this this beautiful, like it all looked fantastic, but then the bottles were hot pink, and I'm like, well, I don't want a hot pink bottle.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I want a bottle to match my decor as well.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I want nice colours.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to, I don't want to have it screaming at me saying damaged, dry, dull, or lifeless, because that's what all the bottles did.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I don't want to be damaged, I definitely don't want to be dull or lifeless or even limp when I'm in the shower.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I found the messaging was all wrong as well.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I hear you, yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually, because they look very bespoke and boutique, the style of the bottles.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we've had those bottles out since I think 2004, which is quite bizarre.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I think we're coming up to our 20th year and they haven't really dated.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they were they weren't perfect straight away.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: We had a lot of problems because we what were the problems, like for example um just the orifice, to tell you the truth, because we wanted it at the bottom, and then having it at the bottom, we thought that it would just be really easy and that everyone would really understand, but not everyone really understood.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm interested to hear you say that because that's one thing that I was going to raise with you was the orifice, which is an interesting thing to be raising, but I was just I was going to raise it because uh it is something that people comment on sometimes is how hard it is to get the product out.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm I'm glad you've raised it.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: We've got it out on the table, and I'm very happy about that.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we we have trouble.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've got two sorts of water.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got one with the orus on the top, one with the oris on the bottom.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we thought that we'd be able to have like more squishier sort of plastic, and as it turned out, we couldn't because the plastic tended to squish away and didn't look as nice anymore.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So all I say to people is um just give it just shake, shake, shake, and then it'll all squeeze out.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you can get everything out of the bottle.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I remember like all of my round bottles, I would have to turn them upside down in the shower, and then when you come in, it's like Skittles and they all let go everywhere, sort of thing.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So at least at least these ones you don't have to turn them upside down.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: They also do look very good in the shower, let's be honest.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: They do.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we do have liters as well and half liters that they've got a pump on them, so they're much easier.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you do too.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think though, just in terms of it sounds like you put enormous effort and thought into creating this this brand.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Where just talk to me about how so it went from selling in your salon to then being, you know, pretty much everywhere you can get it.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me how hard was that to expand that that brand base.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you've been doing it for what, 25 years?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Long time.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Even a bit sort of longer.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So what it was was when I first had my cell, I had Cusco Murphy.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Correct, yeah.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Cusco Murphy was the hair product that we had in there as well.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then what happened was um all of my friends that had salons said, I don't want to buy it because it's got your salon's name, and I don't want your salon's name in my salon.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to go, that's they said if you called it Kevin Murphy, then we buy it, sort of thing.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to then go, okay, let's get rid of Cusco Murphy and then re-invent myself as Kevin Murphy, sort of thing, which was the only reason I even said use my name because I never really liked my name.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: I thought also it was really boring, is it's just that that was the last thing that I had, if you know what I mean.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's so interesting.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: I never knew that, and I'm very interested.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: I wondered why it was called Kevin Murphy.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, I thought it was a branding exercise.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't really a branding exercise, it was actually tougher because people said to me that no one knows who you are.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think in the beginning, they're like, Oh, they don't know who they don't know who you are.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, all right, well, then I've got to try and make them know who I am, sort of thing.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I started working for magazines because I knew that the best place I could actually promote a product was to actually go and work for magazines and have the product in my hand and go, hi, yeah, I use this product.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: So then I could pass it to them because I couldn't afford press or PR or anything like that.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: So all I could afford to do was go and work on the photo shoot and then pass the editor the product and hopefully they would put it in.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And luckily they did.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you certainly worked with some pretty um stellar magazines and publications, which I outlined in the intro.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, how did you find doing that?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Did you find that they were responsive?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And also, you mentioned, I was reading that you were struggling to find product that you found was good for photo shoots and for runways, etc.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you had that double barrel benefit of you got your product into the sort of fashionista world, but you also got to use good product.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what actually happened was um it was in the 90s, and then everything in the 90s was all about straight, flat hair.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: So all the products were really guided towards straight, flat hair, and everyone had sort of ironed hair.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I came from this sort of like a like a beachy, sexy sort of era where I wanted lots of volume in the hair.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like 80s, yeah.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, supermodel onwards, sort of thing.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it sort of got from the 80s into the 90s, and it was all about this sort of you know beachy, messy, you know, very much how I grew up, very beachy, messy hair, yes.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then the people would give you products, like all the products to say, Oh, yeah, but you can only use the tiniest bit, you can only put it on the very, very ends.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Well, how can I change the characteristic of the hair if I can only put something on the ends?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: So what I found was I was going to the makeup artist bag because I looked for the products that she was using, which absorbed really quickly, were really fine and light, and then mine were heavy and greasy.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Well, why are hers absorbing and mine are going greasy and staying on the hair and the hair was greasy by lunchtime?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna try using your body lotion and mix it with hairspray, then I'm gonna try using your toner to make my gel lighter and sort of more watery.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I found I was getting better results using makeup and skincare on the hair than I was actually using hair products.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's extraordinary.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: I never knew this.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is very interesting.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I said to a friend who's a biochemist, and I said, Well, how come the makeup stuff works really lightly on the hair, but the hair stuff is really heavy on the hair that said, of course, it's a smaller molecule.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, so it's a smaller molecule.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's when I started using skincare on the hair instead of hair care.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where skincare for your hair was born.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's our tagline since about 2008, I think.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And when I first brought it out, people were like, What's that?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: That means nothing, sort of thing.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, as it turned out, sort of thing, people actually do sort of respond to it because they understand the lightness of skincare can actually be adapted to the lightness of hair care instead.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because you want you don't want product to look like it's in your hair, you want to have like nice, correct, it looks natural, but is doing something.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's true.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And also, I find it quite interesting how technical and scientific you were thinking.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Scientifically, you were trying to sort of understand and you're exploratory and you were innovative in that sense because it wasn't just a branding exercise for you.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, how can I make this product better and how can I ensure that it benefits my client?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really, you know, it's not just about there's no point having a great brand if the product doesn't serve its purpose.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that I always felt sorry for my clients as well, because they'd come in and go, Oh, my hair's fine, I'm limp, I'm lifeless.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd be like, Well, no, your hair isn't like that, sort of thing.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I would always be thinking, how can I make products for them to make their life better?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because people, when people felt beautiful, they were happy, sort of thing.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: When they came in, if they thought they were dull, life is damaged, they weren't happy, sort of thing.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted my clients to be happy.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, Well, what can I give you that can make it work?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because the stuff that was on my shelves was too heavy and greasy and just not for everybody.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And not everyone's got massive thick hair.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like most people have got fine hair, they want to get a bit more, but the whole industry was based on this, like, you know, one size fits all, like, you know, it's suitable for all hair types.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Well, how can it be?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because you don't that I I could sit in a room where there were like 50 people and no one would actually have the same hair type.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we're all completely, and it's like the same with your skin.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you get a red lipstick, there's a hundred red lipsticks on the market.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, why is there a hundred red?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's just red.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, well, it's not just red because there's many nuances that go along with it.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that hair care in the past had no nuance at all.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like you're either colored or you're not colored.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, well, I want my hair's fine and it is colored.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I want fine, I want shampoo for fine hair that's colored hair as well, not in two different bottles.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely makes sense.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's to be honest, it's quite logical.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit of a no brainer in terms of your working with.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Some of your pretty high celebrity clients.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, talk to me about what are some of the ones that you really enjoyed and loved and found particularly rewarding?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know you've worked with some great models and also musicians and actors.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, it's just been such a long time since I've actually have worked.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is that because of that there's not work around or because of because you're more focused on the product being your source of I've got too busy to tell you the truth, because when if a celebrity calls, they call you and they go, Can I could you come tomorrow?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, Oh, I'm actually I'm somewhere else, sort of thing.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the um the industry that I'm in now is they want to book you seven months in advance.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've got bookings for next March already, sort of thing.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to, they don't muck around, sort of thing.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've actually got a booking for next uh June and July as well.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: When you say booking, this is for a blow wave and a colour, or what is it?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it's for a um, it would be like for an event sort of thing.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So now I'm like, you know, 300 people, I'm talking to 500 people.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm standing in front of like 1100 people.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: So they're bigger events, and I just you can't just say, Oh, everyone, can you come back another day sort of thing?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've got to go and blow over celebrities.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because they want to book, yeah, they have to know they're covered.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the celebrity is gonna they they don't know, or it like anyone to get their hair done.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you don't you you can't you don't know what you're gonna do doing in a month's time.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Same with the magazines, they don't know what they're doing next week, they can't tell you if they're doing something great.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it just didn't work out, and I had to decide whether I was going to, you know, be a celebrity hairdresser and be at the mercy of someone, or whether I was going to, you know, use something that's that I can make money in my sleep, if that makes sense.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're not money in sleep when you've already got these.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So what you're just so I'm understanding this, you can talk to me about the celebrities you have worked with and what what who you did really enjoy.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: But what you're saying is over time you realize that to be constantly under that pressure of bookings and events and you've chosen to exit that or to still take bookings.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, I've chosen to exit that.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's for your own mental health and well-being.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's mainly because you can't be there for them.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So they need you to be there 24-7, and they need you to be available and they need you to be like on your toes, and you can't be thinking about, you know, like someone saying, I've got these 100 million bottles, they're they're not working out.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can't be talking about bottles, you need to focus on the person that you're with.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what you're saying is you can't be a master of all trades because you're trying to do your business, which is your core income and business structure.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've got the celebrity aspect, which may have served its purpose for you at a particular time, but it no longer serves you.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it did serve me very, very well, and it gave me a great stepping stone, but also opened my eyes that there are bigger and better things that you can do.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was when I first started doing products, I was like, well, I can give product to you and you and you and you and you, but I don't have to be doing your hair, I can just give you the stuff, sort of thing.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just like a a few lights went on in my head, and I was like, Well, I really should, I need to, I need to plan my future because my future is going to die once the celebrity decides that she doesn't really want me anymore or she wants to change, sort of thing.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that they don't like you, or you're not about your personality.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it's just they move country or they change the way they are, yeah, it could be, or you know, they just they just want to change, sort of thing, and it's really quite a normal thing to do.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you can either stay on that merry-go-round.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know that a lot of my friends that I've known when I worked in the magazines, they're still there, sort of thing.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, wow, you're still there.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And thing the thing is when you're doing those sorts of jobs, like people ask for options, they're like, Oh, can we get a few more options?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you've sort of been, let's be honest, you've been there, done that, and there's an element where I suppose you've made a call that it's more practical for you to continue in a as a businessman and to to have your expansion in this direction.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose different people make their choices, but also literally, as you get older, your ability to do that and to cope with those those pressures is going to transition anyway, if it hasn't already.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you're being you're you're thinking ahead and going, well, I can't just do 10 celebrities a week and keep doing that and and manage it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Tell you the truth.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was better at making products than it was at doing celebrities.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's an important.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, thank God you had the realization.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's important.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe so tell me a little bit about when you did work with celebrities, who was it that you really enjoyed and who, because they have given you a platform which has probably you know elevated you out into the to the stratosphere of sorts.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say, well, you say, well, Kylie Mro would be the first one and the best one because she has got the best taste.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: So because a lot of it is like a taste level.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: So when you go in to do a celebrity, they might go, Yeah, I want to look like this, and I'll be like, Oh, do you?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: You sure?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: sort of thing.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: What about if you went like that?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: So then they would be adamant that they that's what they wanted.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the good thing about Kylie was she's like, Well, what do you think?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you're the expert, you do what you think is right, sort of thing, and then you say what you're gonna do, and she go, yeah, and then we'd have a great day because you're the you're sort of in sync with with people, yeah.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's a really important thing.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not always in sync with every single person that you meet, and you've got to be able to, it can't feel like a job, you've got to be able to have fun with these people.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure Carly would have been fun, but gee, she really went from the 80s curls to the gorgeous little blonde 90s.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she's always looked great, you know, she's always got that very, you know.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: She adapted with the time, she changed with the times, which was really good.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't get stuck in a rut.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Then you got like Heidi Clume, she was always like fun, fun, fun.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: She couldn't stop laughing all the time.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: She was a very bubbly person.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Again, someone who's kind of changed with the times as well.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So they've they've those people have really evolved in their careers, and that's what's made them um stay on top as well.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what have you learned from some of these people, other than what you've just outlined?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, I think we all, because I interview a lot of celebrities as well.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and at the end of the day, you do learn a lot about sort of we're all very similar in our humanity.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's something that I learn when I interview people, but also just what hard yakker it can be and how difficult and and challenging to be in that spotlight can be.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you would have been at the coal face with them about to get, you know, I mean, you can see even the recent Kardashian show.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was looking, there was just a snippet that came up where I think it's Chloe's talking to a hairdresser saying, you know, confessing just or talking in great detail about how painful some of the things that have happened in her life have been.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it was quite a, you know, quite a poetic little moment, for want if you want to refer to the Kardashians, but you know what I'm saying.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that um, like the the thing that Kylie taught me was that she taught me how to how to walk into a room and maintain a professional, friendly distance, if that makes sense, sort of thing, and not to get sort of overwhelmed.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I saw her walk into situations, I'll be like, oh my god, how can you do that sort of thing?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, shaking people's hand, being really, really nice.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously she's a genuine person, sort of thing.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why she really enjoys it and she likes the um, she also said to me, Go where your fans are, sort of thing.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that was like a really clever thing to say because it was um like, don't bother, like if your fans aren't there, don't go there.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it sort of makes sense.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we always say, go where your fans are.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that Kylie also, the way that she could just completely not control everybody, because she's not a controlling type of person, but she was people would just like sort of swoon around her, if that makes sense, sort of thing.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: But she's always like very composed, never really sort of um, never let things get razzled, and was never ever mean to anybody ever, ever, sort of thing.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like always nice and polite, no matter what people said to her.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I hear that from the other from other industry insiders too, that it's very much her way of operating.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, look at her now, over 50 and still got a number one single.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite extraordinary.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's quite extraordinary.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Quite extraordinary.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, so for you, talk to me about how, so on the business side, you then, as I mentioned, I was in Italy in this random little place in the middle of the south of Italy, and I go into the hairdresser there for a blow wave, which by the way was 20 euros, so it was very cheap.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was in awe.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And but there were all your products, and I'm saying to them, these are an Australian, this is Australian, right?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And she's going, What?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was really funny because they actually didn't know, you know, and I'm saying, it's an Australian product, like thank you, you know, I'll buy and I bought some.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's kudos to you for being in a little, you know, all these little random places in Europe.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it must be quite surreal.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Italy is a um a very unusual country to to do business in.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like these Hayans are crazy, as we all know, sort of thing.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: But Italy is um is Italy is run by um, you've got like a you have a major distributor, then you have like little multiple distributors, and they all sort of work in conjunction with the major one, but they all work for themselves, and it's just it's crazy, sort of come crazy mixed up thing.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's very hard to sort of control.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you've got to be Italian because no one speaks English at all, like very, very rare.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I meet a lot of the reps and they're like, hey, ciao Bella Gazzi.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, hey, and that's I mean, I have my Italian goes for about sort of three words, and their English goes for about three words as well.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the um the good thing is, I mean, it's it's not something I've built personally.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really good at tying bows on things.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: So my job is to tie a bow on it, so I can pick a great colour, I can fit do a fantastic hair product.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: But when the the business side of things, that's where I sort of tend to stumble a little bit, and I need to be guided by my business partners on what they think is going to be great.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm lucky because I feel like I've got a bit of a crystal ball.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can see into the future, but they are the ones who actually do the nuts and bolts sort of thing.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And without them, I wouldn't be able to, it would not be possible, sort of thing.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: So well, that's a that's a typical like a creative with a business.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: You you know, that's quite common that you take the creative, which is you, the innovator, and then you put it with the business side.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: What's been the greatest challenge for you on a business front?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what would you advise people going into this sort of industry?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can see obviously you've got Mecca, which is just insane, what Joe's created, and it is just next level and and and really everywhere, but she's just it's just an incredible business, which actually also started in the 80s.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: What would you that that's in a different arena, but it's not a dissimilar concept.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Not really that dissimilar.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think that um someone wise always told me, always work with people that know more than you.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't be the smartest one in the room.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably and I think that's pretty universal.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I always think to myself, you know, I want, I know nothing about distribution, so I want to be in partnership with someone who's a distributor.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: So because it's all essentially I become a logistics company because you've got your bottle of stuff, which is all really great.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, you know, we want we want to make sure the stuff that goes inside the bottle is just as good as the as what goes on the outside, but it's a logistics thing, so you've got to make sure that someone knows how to buy the bottles to put the caps on, to put the stuff in the bottle, to send it over here.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it becomes a whole um mathematical concept.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: So creativity is fantastic, it's half the problem, but it's not, it's it's probably like a to actually run a business, it's probably like a tenth.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: I actually agree with you, and so many people I know in business say the same thing.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that sometimes creative people also they um it's not that they're not worth it, but I think that they might exaggerate their worth when it comes to business.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that if you think that the creative side is 10% and the actual running of a business and doing all those other things, which are very, very important, that's probably 90%.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I get a lot of people asking me, they say, How much would you like someone wants to buy my business?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: How much should I sell?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, sell as much as you can.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, but that shows, I mean, you and for you, you're you've got partners and and you know, like everyone, you've had ups and downs and challenges.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: But for you, are you happy and content with the way it is running, or is it something that you see changing in the future or selling?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or what's your well, it's sort of in the beginning, it was it's in the past couple of years, it's been my beyond my wildest dreams that I ever think it would be sort of that big sort of thing.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and sometimes I personally would say, Oh, I think that's probably a mistake, sort of thing, but then it might work out to be the right thing.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was obsessed by this word gloss, and I wanted to call this shampoo gloss, and I was like, Oh, it's such a good name.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then I found out that no one was actually using the word gloss.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm amazed.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was um there was there was glow, everyone was having a glow up or glow on sort of thing, but the actual word gloss wasn't ever used by a shampoo company, it was only ever used by a car company.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that's incredible.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: It meant that the word gloss was up for grabs, and I was like, Oh my god, it's up for grabs.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: They said no one's using it.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like so excited, I was just obsessed with gloss.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then my business partner said, Yeah, but we don't want to call it that.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, No, really, you're stupid like you, you're kidding me.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, It's the best name ever, sort of thing.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, No, we don't want to call it something else.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, Come up with something else.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: They have to come up with something else.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then luckily we found a um, because gloss, you know, everyone wants to go to the cell and get gloss.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like, oh, it sounds fantastic, I love that.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily, we did a range of color, which was just after that, and that can be called gloss, sort of thing.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy said to me, my business partner Peter says to me, Aren't you glad I didn't let you call it gloss?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Yep, okay.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I would have, I would have, would, would have ended with a shampoo, whereas gloss could be um, I think it's like 150 skews sort of thing.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: So they can all be called gloss, and it's a much sort of bigger and better thing.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you ended up using the word gloss, but in a different way, or you didn't?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Brand.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Same brand, but just it's a colour product, which is like a where that's where all of the um actual money is.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you want to make money in hairdressing, you need to make a colour.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if I would have called the shampoo gloss, I wouldn't have been able to call the color gloss.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, now I understand.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's interesting.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: So color is where you make that the money.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's the colour.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you think about when you go to the salon, that's what you spend your money on.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: You certainly do.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but so so okay, that's really uh that's interesting to understand.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so from moving forward, is is it so how many stores have you got product in?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know your stats on that?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or is that certain I think it's 49 countries, and I don't know how many stores that would be to tell you the truth.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've got still a lot of countries, yeah.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a there's a lot of countries in Europe as well, a lot of them are tiny little countries, so you know, you've got Estonia, which is a tiny country.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think 49 countries at the moment, I didn't imagine it even being in two, sort of thing.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, If I can just sell a couple of products here and there, that's where the creative person, you know, we want this to happen, sort of thing, and we could try really, really hard.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: But you might just go, oh, just a couple of salons would be fine, just me and my friends, and then they go, No, no, we're gonna do a thousand salons, we're gonna do a million salons, we're gonna do it's like, oh, that's when it becomes beyond your wildest dreams.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Does that actually become financially beneficial?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do is that, you know, like you can be in 49 countries, but is that as you were mentioning earlier, there is a you know, at times you're with the mortgage hikes and everything, you know, obviously that's impacting affordability of certain things.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: But for you, has that given you a reasonably good without you know the details, but it's giving you a good life?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's giving me a good it's giving me a great life to tell you the truth.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really, really happy.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm not living in a mansion, I'm living nicely, but I don't have to, I don't need that much stuff, if you know what I mean.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I can, you know, wearing a nice sweater and everything like that.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty happy.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's given me um also freedom as well, because I've got the freedom to do what I feel is right.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've got there was um a plan about sort of seven or eight years ago, the CEO came up to us and said, Okay, we need to do a thing called succession planning, and we had a different at that time.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, What's succession planning?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: They said, Well, you've got to find the person who's gonna take over your job.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, okay, thinking it like it was a bit of a weird thing to do, but I'd never been in a corporate structure before.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I didn't really know what corporate was.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we were all given a task, and so I did my succession planning, and I've done it now for the past sort of seven years, and it's gotten to the point where I actually don't really have to go to work, sort of thing, because they're all doing everything for me.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a certain part of me that was fearful, and like they're just gonna try and get rid of me, but they don't, they won't.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: They we don't want to get rid of you, we just don't want anything to happen to you, and then us not be able to move on.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So they weren't, they were afraid that the company was too reliant on myself, which is fair enough.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: So what I've just common.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you got a whole like team of people involved, and now we've grown them up.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that once you give people that responsibility, they get they take ownership and they grow and they grow really, really well in that structure.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And now every time we give them a task, they're just they grow into it, sort of thing.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: So they've all sort of taken my job almost.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it sounds like succession planning, but also you're not you don't sound like you've left the building, you sound like present.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you like to be present and engaged, and also I suppose to ensure the sustainability of it moving forward, you know, it's a bit like um, you know, like Peter Alexander, who is somebody I know very well and you probably know as well, he obviously he sold and but he's still very involved and there's a sense of of ownership and presence.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's holding it.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to need to you don't need an iron grip, you just need to hold something very gently and you need to allow people to flourish, sort of thing.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to let them grow because if they don't grow, you don't grow.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're if you if the company is reliant on the fact that you're in charge and you're telling everybody what to do, people are gonna resent you and people won't enjoy working for you because they're not getting anywhere.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because most people go, what's my career path?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: What's my goal?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: What am I doing?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: sort of thing.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we're a very goal-oriented society.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you don't give people goals or if you don't allow them to reach their goals, they're gonna go somewhere else.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is incredibly insightful.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And also, I think you have clearly done a lot of work on understanding the business trajectory and what it is that you value and what you want to take with you and what you want to pass on, I suppose, as a legacy.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you want to try and pass on as much as possible.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think if anyone's out there listening, you you want to be a boss who surrounds himself with really, really talented people.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: So again, always work with people that know more than you, or don't be the smartest person in the room.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: I always say me in, me in times because it's not necessary.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Surround yourself with people who are smarter and brighter.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, on that wonderful um uplifting note, I would like to thank you, Kevin, for joining me on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's been an absolute uh pleasure to interview you and to hear your story.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Deb.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you had me on, and I think it's a great podcast, and I hope that people get a lot out of it.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: I have no doubt they will.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: My listeners will love this.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great day.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: All right, thank you.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Love death.