Latest / How To Protect The Ocean / Seafood Laws and Ocean Justice: How Legal Frameworks Shape the Future of Fisheries

Transcript

Seafood Laws and Ocean Justice: How Legal Frameworks Shape the Future of Fisheries · How To Protect The Ocean

• 1:00:00
  Overfishing is a
• 1:00:01
  complex problem to solve.
• 1:00:03
  It's not something that
• 1:00:04
  we can solve overnight.
• 1:00:05
  Obviously, if we would have been able to,
• 1:00:07
  we would have done it by now.
• 1:00:08
  But there are a lot of
• 1:00:09
  layers within fisheries.
• 1:00:10
  There's the science portion,
• 1:00:11
  there's the advocacy portion,
• 1:00:13
  the activism portion, there's
• 1:00:14
  the fishing community portion,
• 1:00:16
  there's the
• 1:00:16
  recreational versus commercial,
• 1:00:18
  and even within the commercial,
• 1:00:19
  there's the artisanal
• 1:00:20
  versus industrialized.
• 1:00:21
  There are a lot of
• 1:00:22
  different layers within
• 1:00:23
  fisheries that make it
• 1:00:25
  really complex to solve.
• 1:00:27
  On top of that, there
• 1:00:28
  are laws that govern
• 1:00:29
  the way we manage
• 1:00:31
  everything in the ocean.
• 1:00:32
  Not necessarily the high seas,
• 1:00:33
  but there are that is coming,
• 1:00:35
  but there are laws within everybody's
• 1:00:37
  exclusive economic zone
• 1:00:38
  that could differ
• 1:00:39
  depending on the country or state,
• 1:00:41
  that could differ depending
• 1:00:42
  on where they are in the world.
• 1:00:44
  And it could differ in the approach that
• 1:00:45
  they have to marine fisheries.
• 1:00:47
  And that's a lot to take in.
• 1:00:50
  And so it can be confusing to find out
• 1:00:51
  where these laws are going
• 1:00:52
  and how to work through these laws and
• 1:00:54
  how to make them better.
• 1:00:55
  And so I invited Ava
• 1:00:57
  Von Huchlum to the podcast
• 1:00:59
  to be able to discuss this.
• 1:01:01
  She is a legal professional passionate
• 1:01:03
  about making the seafood
• 1:01:04
  sector more responsible.
• 1:01:06
  She started an advisory firm called
• 1:01:08
  Natural Justice to support the sector
• 1:01:10
  with more diligent consideration of
• 1:01:12
  national and international law and policy
• 1:01:14
  and impacting seafood sustainably.
• 1:01:17
  We're going to talk to Ava about law and
• 1:01:18
  fisheries on this episode of the How to
• 1:01:20
  Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 1:01:21
  Let's start the show.
• 1:01:26
  Hey everybody, welcome back to another
• 1:01:27
  exciting episode of the How
• 1:01:28
  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 1:01:29
  I'm your host Andrew Lewin and this is
• 1:01:30
  the podcast where you find out what's
• 1:01:31
  happening with the ocean, how you could
• 1:01:32
  speak up for the ocean, what you can do
• 1:01:34
  to live for a better
• 1:01:35
  ocean by taking action.
• 1:01:37
  Not today's episode.
• 1:01:38
  We're going to be talking about the law
• 1:01:39
  and fisheries law of the
• 1:01:42
  sea and law of the fish.
• 1:01:43
  We're going to be talking to Ava van
• 1:01:45
  Hooklem who is someone who decided when
• 1:01:47
  she went to law school to choose
• 1:01:50
  governing fish instead of going to
• 1:01:52
  corporate law or going to
• 1:01:54
  criminal law as many others do.
• 1:01:56
  She decided to forego maybe the big bucks
• 1:01:58
  and to live a life of impact by looking
• 1:02:00
  after fisheries around the world and
• 1:02:03
  working with different governments,
• 1:02:04
  working with different organizations,
• 1:02:05
  working with different private ventures
• 1:02:07
  and companies to be able to discuss and
• 1:02:11
  be able to manage policy and law of
• 1:02:14
  fisheries internationally.
• 1:02:16
  And I think that is something that we
• 1:02:17
  don't really get to
• 1:02:18
  discuss on this podcast.
• 1:02:19
  So it's really fun to be able to have
• 1:02:21
  someone with Ava's background and
• 1:02:22
  experience to come on the podcast and
• 1:02:24
  kind of take us through the law of the
• 1:02:27
  sea and the law of the fish to be able to
• 1:02:29
  like, what is law for
• 1:02:30
  fisheries and how is it managed?
• 1:02:32
  How can we make it better?
• 1:02:33
  What are the trends that we see?
• 1:02:35
  We go through all that in
• 1:02:36
  this interview with Ava.
• 1:02:38
  So here is the interview with Ava Van
• 1:02:39
  Hoeklem from Natural Justice.
• 1:02:41
  Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.
• 1:02:42
  Hey Ava, welcome to the How
• 1:02:44
  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 1:02:45
  Are you ready to talk
• 1:02:46
  about fisheries and the law?
• 1:02:48
  Always appreciate the invite.
• 1:02:51
  Love it.
• 1:02:51
  I love it.
• 1:02:51
  I'm super excited because it's not all
• 1:02:53
  every day that we get a professional law
• 1:02:56
  person here, you know, a law
• 1:02:58
  professional, especially around
• 1:02:59
  sustainability and the sea and around
• 1:03:01
  seafood, around fisheries.
• 1:03:03
  I'm very excited to dive deep into, you
• 1:03:06
  know, what the laws are around and what's
• 1:03:08
  happened in the past, what was good, what
• 1:03:10
  was bad and kind of get into the trends
• 1:03:12
  of what's happening now and
• 1:03:13
  what's needed in the future.
• 1:03:15
  I think there's a lot of things that we
• 1:03:16
  can discuss today that we're going to
• 1:03:18
  discuss today that people don't realize
• 1:03:20
  what happens in fisheries
• 1:03:21
  that kind of gets hidden.
• 1:03:23
  It's not over like the talk, the talk of
• 1:03:25
  the town around fisheries.
• 1:03:27
  A lot of times when we talk about people
• 1:03:29
  just learning more about fisheries, we
• 1:03:30
  always hear about fishing communities,
• 1:03:32
  you know, fishermen, fishermen, women who
• 1:03:34
  are out there, you know, some people say,
• 1:03:36
  oh, everything's over fish.
• 1:03:37
  Some people, some
• 1:03:38
  fisheries are sustainable.
• 1:03:40
  There are groups out there that try and
• 1:03:41
  keep us sustainable
• 1:03:42
  and transparency is key.
• 1:03:44
  So we're going to get
• 1:03:44
  into all of that stuff.
• 1:03:46
  But before we do, Eva, I want you to just
• 1:03:48
  let us know who you are and what you do.
• 1:03:52
  Yeah, thanks. And you're right.
• 1:03:53
  It is sometimes rather
• 1:03:55
  niche field to work in.
• 1:03:57
  I must say my fellow law students were
• 1:03:58
  definitely surprised when I said I was
• 1:04:00
  specializing in fish.
• 1:04:02
  Yeah, since most of them went into
• 1:04:04
  corporate law,
• 1:04:05
  contract law, all that stuff.
• 1:04:07
  But yeah, so my name is Eva van Hoeklum
• 1:04:10
  originally from the Netherlands and I own
• 1:04:13
  Natural Justice, which is a small
• 1:04:14
  consultancy and I work with clients
• 1:04:17
  globally and I specialize in really the
• 1:04:20
  intersection of law and fisheries.
• 1:04:23
  So I started about eight
• 1:04:25
  years ago with with the specialty.
• 1:04:27
  And when I started, you know, you go to
• 1:04:29
  the usual suspects in terms of what law
• 1:04:31
  is relevant for fisheries.
• 1:04:32
  I really started with the sea fisheries
• 1:04:35
  law, trade law, environmental law.
• 1:04:39
  But now increasingly, I'm also looking
• 1:04:41
  more at some overlooked areas of law that
• 1:04:44
  I believe are really impacting our
• 1:04:47
  efforts to make fisheries more
• 1:04:48
  responsible, more equitable and linking
• 1:04:52
  this to the obligations that states have
• 1:04:54
  under international law of the sea and
• 1:04:56
  environmental law, etc.
• 1:04:58
  So, yeah, I'd be very happy
• 1:05:01
  to expand on that a little bit.
• 1:05:03
  And yeah, I'm really with that type of
• 1:05:05
  work, hoping to bring more focus on the
• 1:05:07
  role of states and fisheries management
• 1:05:09
  and the role of law in that as well as
• 1:05:13
  some more nuance sometimes where I feel
• 1:05:15
  like a lot of discussions around states
• 1:05:18
  is very much, they're unwilling.
• 1:05:20
  They don't want to collaborate with this.
• 1:05:22
  They're not doing enough there.
• 1:05:23
  And I really just don't
• 1:05:24
  think it's that black and white.
• 1:05:25
  It's a very gray area.
• 1:05:28
  And there's a lot to explore there.
• 1:05:29
  So yeah, I do a lot of research in that
• 1:05:32
  intersection really of the fisheries
• 1:05:33
  sector practically and
• 1:05:35
  then the laws that impact it.
• 1:05:38
  I love it.
• 1:05:38
  I love it.
• 1:05:39
  I think that's that's wonderful.
• 1:05:40
  I can't wait to get into all of this.
• 1:05:42
  What you know, you talked a little bit at
• 1:05:44
  the beginning, like your classmates in
• 1:05:47
  law school were a little surprised when
• 1:05:49
  you decided to pick fish as something to
• 1:05:51
  focus on as your niche to focus on.
• 1:05:53
  Like we know lawyers get paid a lot of
• 1:05:55
  money when they go into corporate, they
• 1:05:57
  go into criminal law or whatever.
• 1:05:59
  And you see a lot.
• 1:06:00
  You see shows like suits and things like
• 1:06:02
  that all over the world.
• 1:06:03
  You see these types of shows that come up
• 1:06:05
  because people are interested in the way
• 1:06:06
  lawyers speak and the way they do
• 1:06:08
  business and it's always like high-end
• 1:06:09
  stuff and they charge a lot for their
• 1:06:11
  hourly rate and all this kind of stuff.
• 1:06:13
  You decided to fish.
• 1:06:14
  You decided to choose in a sort of
• 1:06:16
  environmental law, but even more niche
• 1:06:18
  down from environmental law.
• 1:06:20
  What made you decide to
• 1:06:23
  follow that route in law school?
• 1:06:27
  Knowing that, you know, environmental
• 1:06:29
  law, maybe you don't get paid as much as
• 1:06:31
  corporate law, you know, now we don't
• 1:06:33
  think into finances, but it's definitely
• 1:06:34
  a very different way of doing things.
• 1:06:37
  So just love to know your rationale
• 1:06:39
  behind following that path.
• 1:06:40
  I love it, but love
• 1:06:41
  to know your rationale.
• 1:06:43
  Yeah, certainly.
• 1:06:44
  And there's I think two stories I can
• 1:06:46
  tell you to illustrate that a little bit.
• 1:06:48
  So there's one that I tell a bit more
• 1:06:51
  often, but a little bit of background is
• 1:06:53
  I wanted to study law.
• 1:06:54
  I was about 12 years old when I decided I
• 1:06:56
  wanted to go to law school because I feel
• 1:06:58
  the law is really just the most tangible
• 1:07:00
  thing we have to protect
• 1:07:01
  people to protect the planet.
• 1:07:04
  And, you know, you get confronted at a
• 1:07:07
  young age, you realize the
• 1:07:08
  world is not a fair place.
• 1:07:10
  It's, you know, people
• 1:07:12
  need to be protected.
• 1:07:13
  And I've always seen the
• 1:07:14
  law as a way to make impact.
• 1:07:16
  So that's always been a very
• 1:07:17
  important motivator for me.
• 1:07:17
  And then I was initially really focused
• 1:07:21
  on working in areas that just came out of
• 1:07:23
  conflict or with refugees.
• 1:07:26
  And so that's that's one story is that I
• 1:07:29
  actually went ahead and did this work.
• 1:07:32
  So I was living in Beirut and working in
• 1:07:35
  a very challenging
• 1:07:39
  area of the city there.
• 1:07:40
  And I was, you know, trying to do my part
• 1:07:44
  and supporting people that just came out
• 1:07:47
  of conflict and, you know, doing my work
• 1:07:49
  with humanitarian law, refugee law.
• 1:07:51
  And I realized I'm just not cut out for
• 1:07:53
  it. It's too damn hard.
• 1:07:55
  Like it's really I was like, I'm going to
• 1:07:57
  either get used to this, which is not a
• 1:07:58
  good option or but I cried
• 1:08:00
  myself to sleep every night.
• 1:08:02
  So one thing is kind of losing
• 1:08:04
  my career path that I was on.
• 1:08:05
  And then another thing is
• 1:08:08
  I took a big sailing trip.
• 1:08:10
  So I had this crazy plan to make it from
• 1:08:12
  Amsterdam to Australia
• 1:08:14
  without catching a flight.
• 1:08:16
  And at some point, you
• 1:08:17
  have to jump on a boat. Right.
• 1:08:19
  So I did this in Malaysia.
• 1:08:21
  I found an Australian guy.
• 1:08:22
  He needed to bring back a sailing boat.
• 1:08:25
  And so I ended up sailing through
• 1:08:27
  Indonesia with him for two months.
• 1:08:29
  And we had like a lure out in the back.
• 1:08:33
  And all it was catching was plastic. And
• 1:08:36
  so that tells me, OK, there's there's an
• 1:08:39
  issue with plastic here.
• 1:08:40
  But more than that, it's where's all the
• 1:08:42
  fish. And we tried to
• 1:08:44
  buy a fish of fishermen.
• 1:08:45
  We saw fishermen that were just out there
• 1:08:47
  in boats for days, not
• 1:08:48
  enough food, not enough water.
• 1:08:50
  And it was very confrontational. It
• 1:08:52
  really made me realize that
• 1:08:53
  our oceans are not doing well.
• 1:08:55
  And this is not just bad news for the
• 1:08:59
  oceans themselves, but you
• 1:09:00
  could see it's impacting people.
• 1:09:02
  And these people often didn't really have
• 1:09:03
  an alternative. What do you do if you
• 1:09:05
  live in a tiny island? Right. Right.
• 1:09:07
  There's no fish to catch. How are you
• 1:09:08
  going to feed your children? How are you
• 1:09:10
  going to create any livelihood?
• 1:09:12
  So that was, I think, really for me, the
• 1:09:14
  main push where whenever when I went back
• 1:09:18
  to law school to do my master's before I
• 1:09:21
  knew it, every essay I was writing was
• 1:09:23
  about fishery sector,
• 1:09:23
  whether it was the environmental law
• 1:09:26
  subjects where it made sense. But I did
• 1:09:28
  the same for trade law. I did the same
• 1:09:30
  for investment law, did
• 1:09:31
  the same for European law.
• 1:09:33
  I could always find an angle. And yeah,
• 1:09:35
  it just there was no way back, really, at
• 1:09:38
  that point, I think.
• 1:09:40
  And every time you did those assignments,
• 1:09:42
  every time you focused on a paper on
• 1:09:45
  fisheries, whether it be through trade,
• 1:09:46
  whether it be through
• 1:09:47
  access or whatever that might be,
• 1:09:52
  what was your feeling every time you
• 1:09:54
  finish one? Because I know sometimes, you
• 1:09:56
  know, as a student, you you you follow a
• 1:09:57
  certain path and say you do a paper on
• 1:09:59
  something and it may not be the best
• 1:10:01
  interest, you know, and so you may not be
• 1:10:03
  like when you hand in, you're like, OK,
• 1:10:04
  I'm done with that kind of subject.
• 1:10:05
  But obviously, this is something that was
• 1:10:07
  continued your passion for it. So every
• 1:10:09
  time you hand in one of those papers,
• 1:10:11
  what was your feeling on that?
• 1:10:12
  Like, were there more questions that came
• 1:10:14
  from what you found? And I could research
• 1:10:16
  this more. Or was it just like, OK, maybe
• 1:10:19
  this is not like trade
• 1:10:20
  is not where I want to go.
• 1:10:21
  Maybe it's somewhere else. Like, what was
• 1:10:23
  that that avenue? What was that feeling?
• 1:10:26
  Yeah, so I made deliberately made a
• 1:10:28
  combination between, you know, like
• 1:10:31
  growing up in in Europe, like it's almost
• 1:10:33
  impossible to go into a supermarket and
• 1:10:35
  not violate a human
• 1:10:38
  right one way or another.
• 1:10:38
  Like, it's it's really sad. We all know
• 1:10:41
  that the food industry is are just not in
• 1:10:44
  a great shape. Right. And I
• 1:10:46
  knew this about chocolate.
• 1:10:47
  I knew this about coffee. And then I was
• 1:10:48
  learning more about that in the context
• 1:10:50
  of fisheries. And so I deliberately made
• 1:10:53
  that combination of the economic side.
• 1:10:56
  So trade and investment on one hand and
• 1:10:57
  then the human rights law environment, a
• 1:11:00
  lot really more the aspirational, like
• 1:11:02
  where you'd like the
• 1:11:03
  sector to be on the other hand.
• 1:11:04
  And so, yeah, I really wrote about where
• 1:11:10
  those different areas came together. And
• 1:11:13
  for instance, what I learned there, I
• 1:11:17
  think it's the topics that focused on
• 1:11:20
  there weren't necessarily exactly the
• 1:11:23
  topics I'm focusing on now because I just
• 1:11:25
  I know a lot more now about what impacts
• 1:11:28
  the sector and what doesn't.
• 1:11:28
  And I did back then. And I really just
• 1:11:31
  had to invent it myself. Obviously, none
• 1:11:33
  of my law professors know much about fish
• 1:11:35
  and and I don't blame them.
• 1:11:40
  And the but I did catch on pretty early
• 1:11:45
  on that it is as unfair as a lot of the
• 1:11:49
  other food sectors. And for instance,
• 1:11:54
  particularly that whatever the EU is
• 1:11:56
  doing on paper looks great.
• 1:11:57
  Yeah, then if you put in more in the
• 1:12:00
  context of certain impacts, then yeah,
• 1:12:04
  you really start to question about, I
• 1:12:08
  guess, the hypocrisy of a lot of these
• 1:12:12
  systems and how the
• 1:12:13
  states work together on this.
• 1:12:15
  And yeah, like an example, I have an
• 1:12:19
  essay I wrote that I later published was
• 1:12:22
  on the Western Sahara because I was
• 1:12:25
  watching a documentary. So that's an area
• 1:12:27
  occupied by Morocco. And in international
• 1:12:32
  law, people have a right to
• 1:12:34
  what we call self determination.
• 1:12:35
  And under that right, you have the right
• 1:12:41
  to benefit from your own natural
• 1:12:42
  resources. But so a lot of the fish
• 1:12:47
  that's caught in front of the coast of
• 1:12:49
  the Western Sahara, it is not benefiting
• 1:12:52
  the people from the Western Sahara was
• 1:12:54
  actually benefiting either the EU or
• 1:12:57
  Morocco itself because they
• 1:13:00
  were the ones fishing there.
• 1:13:02
  And so I think that's was a very
• 1:13:04
  interesting example of where you have two
• 1:13:06
  formal states and occupation, a natural
• 1:13:09
  resource. And the EU has all these trade
• 1:13:15
  and all these fisheries agreements with
• 1:13:17
  Morocco, where it's like, well, you on
• 1:13:19
  the one hand, you're promoting the right
• 1:13:21
  to self determination.
• 1:13:21
  But on the other hand, you have these
• 1:13:23
  economic treaties that are making it
• 1:13:27
  extremely difficult to really implement
• 1:13:30
  that right to self determination in
• 1:13:33
  practice. So I thought that was a very
• 1:13:36
  interesting example of, I guess, just
• 1:13:38
  politics being politics.
• 1:13:39
  And but if you really look at it,
• 1:13:43
  legally, it's not legal. It's not in line
• 1:13:46
  with what's been agreed upon
• 1:13:47
  internationally. So it did really seem
• 1:13:49
  like a sector where a lot of those
• 1:13:52
  international challenges exist and where
• 1:13:57
  there is just a lot of unfairness and
• 1:13:59
  where there is a lot of work to be done
• 1:14:00
  to fight for people that are in more
• 1:14:02
  vulnerable positions to benefit from
• 1:14:06
  these marine resources
• 1:14:07
  as is their right to.
• 1:14:08
  Yeah, no, absolutely. It's it's there are
• 1:14:13
  a lot of laws out there and and and a lot
• 1:14:16
  of them are there to protect people. A
• 1:14:18
  lot of them are there to allow people to
• 1:14:20
  fish sustainably. And there are a lot of
• 1:14:22
  there, a lot of laws that are out there
• 1:14:24
  that are supposed to prevent from
• 1:14:26
  overfishing, from
• 1:14:28
  exploitation, over exploitation.
• 1:14:29
  A lot of the laws to protect human
• 1:14:32
  rights. There are a lot of laws that
• 1:14:35
  aren't followed and the high seas. And
• 1:14:37
  before we get into that, you know, you
• 1:14:39
  talked about the EU and setting
• 1:14:40
  presidents because you have some pretty
• 1:14:43
  good policies when it when it comes to
• 1:14:45
  setting them as well. Yes. Yeah.
• 1:14:47
  And but not great on one end and not too
• 1:14:50
  great on the other hand, I guess you ask.
• 1:14:53
  Yeah, that's true. That's so true. But is
• 1:14:56
  there a difference between the are the
• 1:14:59
  laws for land and I guess more
• 1:15:02
  agriculture, you know, farming and so
• 1:15:05
  forth as strict as the laws at sea as
• 1:15:08
  like are there like you said there's some
• 1:15:10
  similarities in certain in certain ways
• 1:15:12
  in terms of their they set the policies.
• 1:15:15
  But are there
• 1:15:15
  differences in land and sea?
• 1:15:16
  When you when you look at the strictness
• 1:15:20
  of it in terms of of ensuring
• 1:15:23
  sustainability, ensuring proper ethics
• 1:15:26
  when it comes to fisheries and so forth?
• 1:15:30
  Short answer would be yes, I definitely
• 1:15:33
  think the laws on land are much more
• 1:15:37
  strict. But and I think that also comes
• 1:15:42
  from, you know, I think we have a lot of laws that are not
• 1:15:45
  you know, I think with a lot of fisheries
• 1:15:48
  you it requires collaboration between the
• 1:15:50
  states and that happens in the RFM most
• 1:15:53
  for instance, yes, where whatever you do
• 1:15:55
  on your own land you do on your own land.
• 1:15:56
  So that sense, I would say agriculture
• 1:15:59
  and agriculture is very comparable.
• 1:16:00
  If you look at the laws and sometimes
• 1:16:02
  it's even tackled in one single
• 1:16:04
  regulation, where they'll just be like
• 1:16:06
  minor differences that they put in an
• 1:16:09
  annex or something. But there's a lot of
• 1:16:11
  similarity there. But when you are
• 1:16:14
  talking about fisheries, you're really
• 1:16:15
  talking more about natural resource law,
• 1:16:19
  it's more comparable to hunting, they
• 1:16:21
  always say with fisheries, right?
• 1:16:22
  Gotcha. So it's really, you know, where
• 1:16:25
  aquaculture looks a lot at the inputs and
• 1:16:29
  the impact on groundwater and all those
• 1:16:32
  things. I think with fisheries, it is
• 1:16:34
  really much more on how and how much you
• 1:16:39
  are allowed to take. But the fact that it
• 1:16:44
  is something that just requires
• 1:16:45
  international collaboration, I think that
• 1:16:47
  makes it a lot more challenging.
• 1:16:49
  And then it's not just a law, there's
• 1:16:56
  also the matter of enforcement and it
• 1:16:59
  happens out at sea with fisheries, you
• 1:17:02
  know, still you can put 50 legal scholars
• 1:17:08
  in one room, but there will still not be
• 1:17:11
  one conclusive answer on which
• 1:17:15
  jurisdictions should be
• 1:17:17
  involved with enforcing.
• 1:17:18
  Enforcing a certain illicit activity at
• 1:17:22
  sea, for instance, so much always claims
• 1:17:25
  of, you know, multiple claims of
• 1:17:27
  jurisdiction, and there's not necessarily
• 1:17:29
  always in hierarchy in that. And there
• 1:17:33
  are always certain flag states, sometimes
• 1:17:36
  port states that refuse to do their part.
• 1:17:39
  So that really makes it challenging and
• 1:17:42
  practice. So it's not so much about the
• 1:17:44
  law, per se. It is really also about why
• 1:17:49
  fisheries is just such a different
• 1:17:52
  resource than other food systems and the
• 1:17:57
  international collaboration that it
• 1:17:59
  requires to properly enforce it.
• 1:18:01
  And also the fact it's much more
• 1:18:03
  expensive to send a drone or vessel than
• 1:18:05
  an inspector that goes to a farm. So
• 1:18:09
  there's also the issue of capacity,
• 1:18:11
  where, as I said in the beginning, I
• 1:18:13
  don't believe it's always an
• 1:18:14
  unwillingness. I think it can really be
• 1:18:16
  just a lack of capacity.
• 1:18:18
  But it's also politics, you know, if you
• 1:18:21
  are, let's say you're a coastal state and
• 1:18:24
  there's a vessel in your economic
• 1:18:28
  exclusive zone, you know, where you
• 1:18:30
  really are the primary state to enforce
• 1:18:32
  the proper management
• 1:18:33
  of your resources there.
• 1:18:36
  And that state, the flag state is a
• 1:18:41
  country that happens to also be giving
• 1:18:43
  you a lot of development aid. What are
• 1:18:47
  you going to do? I mean, your law might
• 1:18:49
  say one thing, but you know, the Ministry
• 1:18:52
  of Fisheries doesn't operate in silo.
• 1:18:53
  It's, it's, it's gonna be really
• 1:18:55
  challenging because they still operate in
• 1:18:57
  reality. So the law is, I think can be a
• 1:19:03
  great tool, but sometimes
• 1:19:04
  the law only goes so far.
• 1:19:06
  It's you're right. That's, that's very,
• 1:19:09
  very true. And what I want to do now is I
• 1:19:11
  want to start just at the basics in terms
• 1:19:13
  of the way the laws have been in the past
• 1:19:16
  and in our in our currently and how
• 1:19:18
  they've changed it to our current system,
• 1:19:20
  like start with the basics and we'll
• 1:19:21
  start to grow on that and be able to do that.
• 1:19:22
  So I want to go through some of those, but I'm going to let you guys look at the
• 1:19:24
  first thing I want to do and then I'll start to start to talk about the first things that I want to do.
• 1:19:25
  And I want to start to think about the first thing I want to do, just to clarify
• 1:19:26
  too, because a lot of the people that
• 1:19:27
  listen to this podcast are from the US
• 1:19:29
  you mentioned you've mentioned a couple
• 1:19:31
  times when you when you talk about
• 1:19:32
  individual sort of management units, but
• 1:19:35
  also, I think individual countries, you
• 1:19:37
  mentioned the state's.
• 1:19:47
  Who knows? You never know. But what do
• 1:19:49
  you mean by states when you say states?
• 1:19:51
  I think that's a lot as a very big law
• 1:19:53
  term in terms when it
• 1:19:54
  comes to a lot of policies.
• 1:19:56
  Yeah as I've
• 1:20:00
  At some point during my work in the
• 1:20:02
  fisheries sector because I wasn't always
• 1:20:03
  so particularly focused on
• 1:20:06
  fisheries law
• 1:20:07
  It I did started calling them countries,
• 1:20:10
  right? But nowadays I always talk about
• 1:20:12
  states and jurisdictions
• 1:20:14
  which are basically the same often but
• 1:20:18
  the thing with a state and
• 1:20:20
  We even capitalize this as lawyers like
• 1:20:23
  that's that's how much we love that word
• 1:20:25
  and we basically just mean a country and
• 1:20:28
  You would only say that for a UN member
• 1:20:31
  countries with a recognized country and
• 1:20:34
  jurisdiction in that sense
• 1:20:35
  is sometimes a little bit more
• 1:20:37
  General where you can also
• 1:20:39
  say that about countries that do
• 1:20:41
  or about
• 1:20:43
  jurisdictions that do
• 1:20:45
  govern their fisheries management, but
• 1:20:48
  that aren't necessarily
• 1:20:49
  a recognized UN states
• 1:20:51
  Gotcha. Okay, I basically mean a country
• 1:20:53
  and a country is the primary
• 1:20:56
  responsibility for
• 1:20:57
  that fisheries management
• 1:20:59
  So they're the ones
• 1:21:00
  that have
• 1:21:01
  The complete legal system that is
• 1:21:04
  supposed to manage that
• 1:21:05
  Okay, and and a lot of times from my
• 1:21:07
  understanding you can correct me if i'm
• 1:21:08
  wrong a lot of the countries
• 1:21:10
  Well, every country has a border on the
• 1:21:13
  ocean that has a coast on the ocean has
• 1:21:15
  an exclusive economic zone
• 1:21:17
  Pretty much 200 nautical miles off of
• 1:21:19
  their shore when you talk about
• 1:21:21
  jurisdiction from a
• 1:21:23
  national point of view
• 1:21:25
  You know you you talk about that 200
• 1:21:27
  nautical mile within that 200 nautical
• 1:21:29
  mile within the country
• 1:21:30
  boundaries that have been set
• 1:21:31
  You know by the UN
• 1:21:32
  internationally agreed upon
• 1:21:34
  The countries or the states I should
• 1:21:36
  mention have jurisdiction over those
• 1:21:39
  waters and how they are
• 1:21:40
  managed they pretty much can do
• 1:21:42
  Whatever not whatever they want, but
• 1:21:44
  pretty much it's it's up to them
• 1:21:46
  It's up to their people to say whatever
• 1:21:47
  they want. So as an example, um, you know
• 1:21:50
  A very popular case is when the japanese
• 1:21:53
  were you know going into the southern
• 1:21:55
  ocean hunting whales
• 1:21:57
  We know the fiasco that that encountered
• 1:21:59
  from that with you know, sea shepherds
• 1:22:01
  Like you can't do this in international
• 1:22:03
  waters and you know the whole thing with
• 1:22:05
  the international whaling commission
• 1:22:08
  You know, it goes back and forth for
• 1:22:09
  decades and then finally
• 1:22:10
  the japanese say, you know
• 1:22:11
  What enough of this hassle we're going
• 1:22:13
  back into our own waters and we're just
• 1:22:15
  going to hunt, you know
• 1:22:16
  Marine mammals within
• 1:22:17
  our own our own waters
• 1:22:19
  Not much internationally people can do in
• 1:22:21
  that respect other than maybe boycott
• 1:22:23
  some of their products if
• 1:22:23
  they really want to do so
• 1:22:25
  But there's really not much they can do
• 1:22:26
  from a legal standpoint because they're
• 1:22:27
  within their own rights
• 1:22:29
  within the 200 nautical miles
• 1:22:32
  That so that kind of goes in terms of
• 1:22:34
  like what countries can do
• 1:22:35
  Uh within the law and this is my
• 1:22:37
  understanding of the law
• 1:22:38
  I don't know what the specifics of marine
• 1:22:39
  mammal law within the
• 1:22:41
  japanese 200 nautical miles
• 1:22:43
  But this is some of the
• 1:22:44
  stories that I've that i've seen
• 1:22:46
  but so
• 1:22:48
  A lot of those laws now when it comes to
• 1:22:50
  like north america, you
• 1:22:51
  know, you have you have canada
• 1:22:52
  You have the u.s. You have mexico
• 1:22:54
  They have their their
• 1:22:56
  treaties and they have their you know
• 1:22:57
  North american free trade agreement and
• 1:22:59
  stuff and sometimes fisheries comes into
• 1:23:01
  that and they work fairly well together
• 1:23:04
  As of until recently, uh fairly well
• 1:23:06
  together, you know across the borders
• 1:23:08
  Um when it comes to the eu the eu is
• 1:23:10
  managed as you know, the
• 1:23:12
  member states of the eu
• 1:23:14
  Um, how does that work for?
• 1:23:17
  Countries that have coastal borders onto
• 1:23:19
  the like say the atlantic
• 1:23:20
  ocean or even the metaterrannian
• 1:23:21
  um, do they have the same 200 nautical
• 1:23:25
  miles off the coast and do they manage
• 1:23:27
  like this portugal just
• 1:23:28
  manage portuguese waters?
• 1:23:31
  Uh france, you know french waters germany
• 1:23:34
  like, you know those types of states
• 1:23:36
  Do they just manage their own waters 200
• 1:23:38
  nautical miles off or are there other?
• 1:23:41
  Agreements where those
• 1:23:42
  are managed as the eu
• 1:23:47
  So it's an interesting
• 1:23:48
  question first I wanted to
• 1:23:52
  mention it is
• 1:23:54
  It's not like in your own eec
• 1:23:56
  you can do whatever you want
• 1:23:58
  Because in the case of wailing for
• 1:24:00
  instance, there is such a thing as the uh
• 1:24:03
  as a treaty on wailing
• 1:24:05
  I forget the formal
• 1:24:06
  name, but that's from like
• 1:24:08
  1946 it's actually the first
• 1:24:10
  international law of the sea treaty that
• 1:24:13
  we had uh, so there are
• 1:24:16
  certain
• 1:24:17
  Areas in which you can't just do whatever
• 1:24:19
  you want because hey, it's it's my eec.
• 1:24:21
  So it's my jurisdiction
• 1:24:24
  But of course, it's so much harder
• 1:24:27
  to
• 1:24:28
  enforce because there's not
• 1:24:30
  any other countries that are
• 1:24:34
  That have any jurisdiction. So in
• 1:24:37
  international law there is this principle
• 1:24:40
  Uh, which I don't know if it's ever
• 1:24:42
  really been I guess it's been relied on
• 1:24:44
  for things like a un piece
• 1:24:47
  Mission, uh, you know with like the blue
• 1:24:49
  helmets where it's like none of the
• 1:24:51
  states necessarily had
• 1:24:53
  Uh any jurisdiction, but it was seen as
• 1:24:55
  such an issue of international importance
• 1:24:58
  That's you know under but then we're
• 1:25:00
  talking much more about
• 1:25:01
  diplomacy than yes law per se
• 1:25:04
  um, but just a minor
• 1:25:05
  correction there with the
• 1:25:08
  when it comes to the
• 1:25:09
  determination of your
• 1:25:12
  economic exclusive zone we are um
• 1:25:17
  indeed talking about 200 nautical miles
• 1:25:19
  from uh from the coast but the
• 1:25:23
  uh and in some cases if you're lucky that
• 1:25:26
  just means there's you
• 1:25:27
  know, like in a lot of
• 1:25:29
  Islands for instance, that just means
• 1:25:30
  there's there's a beautiful circle around
• 1:25:32
  your country and you can use that
• 1:25:35
  but in
• 1:25:37
  Many instances it will
• 1:25:39
  clash with someone else's easy
• 1:25:41
  So then the general rule would be that
• 1:25:43
  it's somewhere in the middle
• 1:25:44
  but it can deviate
• 1:25:46
  that's really up to the
• 1:25:48
  Two countries to decide and generally
• 1:25:50
  there won't be any issues there unless
• 1:25:52
  maybe there's any oil
• 1:25:53
  or any resources found
• 1:25:55
  Like exactly between those two then
• 1:25:57
  that's when the trouble just look
• 1:25:59
  contagious. Yeah, exactly
• 1:26:01
  um, but there's even
• 1:26:02
  been good examples of
• 1:26:04
  That where our countries have come to
• 1:26:05
  good agreements and really using the
• 1:26:07
  natural resources to
• 1:26:08
  benefit both countries
• 1:26:10
  so, uh the European Union specifically it
• 1:26:15
  will then basically depend on
• 1:26:18
  uh the country and where they're located
• 1:26:20
  Uh how big their easy is so the
• 1:26:23
  Netherlands for instance, uh will clash
• 1:26:25
  with the the UK at some point
• 1:26:27
  um, so they that's a really important
• 1:26:31
  collaborative partner for
• 1:26:33
  the Netherlands to have in um
• 1:26:35
  uh some I uh some countries in Europe
• 1:26:40
  still have islands so you have the
• 1:26:42
  because you know, it's Europe so all
• 1:26:45
  At least in western Europe all former
• 1:26:47
  colonial powers and some of these islands
• 1:26:49
  were never really transferred back
• 1:26:51
  So they're still part
• 1:26:52
  of the European Union
• 1:26:54
  area, so an example would be
• 1:26:56
  well you have the Azores in
• 1:26:58
  Portugal which is
• 1:27:00
  You'd have then the EEC of Portugal then
• 1:27:02
  a bit of nothing and then again the EEC
• 1:27:05
  of Portugal around the Azores islands
• 1:27:07
  But you also have French Guiana in Latin
• 1:27:10
  America, which is officially an overseas
• 1:27:14
  European territory, even though it's in
• 1:27:16
  Latin America. There's also
• 1:27:17
  some islands in the Caribbean
• 1:27:20
  and the in Europe
• 1:27:22
  there's certain areas where
• 1:27:25
  European countries have
• 1:27:28
  Given their power to the European Union
• 1:27:31
  meaning that it's not the individual
• 1:27:33
  countries that dictate the rules there
• 1:27:35
  It's at the European Union level and
• 1:27:37
  fisheries for instance, uh, as well as
• 1:27:39
  trade is an example of that
• 1:27:41
  So in Europe, you have something called
• 1:27:43
  the common fisheries policy
• 1:27:46
  and that is the same for any of the EU
• 1:27:50
  member states and it will also apply to
• 1:27:54
  uh French Guiana for instance, and I've
• 1:27:56
  had I have heard challenges
• 1:28:00
  sometimes with managing that because you
• 1:28:02
  know their border countries
• 1:28:03
  are not part of the EU and
• 1:28:06
  um
• 1:28:06
  But whenever there needs to be any sort
• 1:28:09
  of international collaboration, they
• 1:28:11
  would need to call in France
• 1:28:13
  to
• 1:28:14
  Because officially that's part of it, but
• 1:28:15
  France is like so far from this country.
• 1:28:17
  It's not really at the top
• 1:28:19
  uh top of their priorities. So it's
• 1:28:21
  really quite a
• 1:28:22
  complicated system, uh with the
• 1:28:25
  EU sometimes bringing in all the
• 1:28:28
  different EECs that are technically
• 1:28:30
  managed under the common fisheries policy
• 1:28:32
  Yeah, I can imagine I can imagine
• 1:28:35
  Okay. So now we got that settled and well
• 1:28:37
  settled I quote unquote settled
• 1:28:39
  Um, let's talk about sort of the the laws
• 1:28:41
  right now overall like
• 1:28:43
  you know worldwide obviously
• 1:28:44
  They're very different in different parts
• 1:28:46
  of the world. Um, but let's
• 1:28:47
  talk about the like up to now
• 1:28:49
  Um, you know it used to be where you
• 1:28:51
  could just fish wherever you want
• 1:28:52
  whenever you want way back, you know a
• 1:28:54
  couple hundred years ago
• 1:28:55
  You could do that, you know, there
• 1:28:56
  weren't as many fishing fleets weren't as
• 1:28:58
  efficient in catching
• 1:28:59
  You know, there's there's talk about
• 1:29:01
  times where you used to just throw a
• 1:29:02
  bucket in the north atlantic
• 1:29:04
  And you'd be able to catch cod didn't
• 1:29:05
  fill it up within minutes if not seconds
• 1:29:08
  That's obviously changed from now on um,
• 1:29:12
  and and from the 90s on especially with
• 1:29:14
  the north atlantic and the cod
• 1:29:16
  Where are we right now with with
• 1:29:18
  fisheries laws? Like if you look at
• 1:29:21
  fisheries laws from your perspective
• 1:29:23
  Overall worldwide, would you say they are
• 1:29:25
  adequate? They are good or they just in
• 1:29:28
  some cases they just suck
• 1:29:30
  It's a very challenging question. It's a
• 1:29:32
  very interesting question. Um, but
• 1:29:35
  I and it is something i'm researching but
• 1:29:38
  considering that you know for a lot of
• 1:29:41
  these fisheries laws or
• 1:29:42
  Policies i will be looking at it from an
• 1:29:44
  outsider perspective. So
• 1:29:46
  I do need to be aware of
• 1:29:48
  I guess my eurocentric views. Um before
• 1:29:51
  passing any judgment
• 1:29:53
  I know that it can be very hard to
• 1:29:56
  predict sometimes and I think there's a
• 1:29:58
  lot of assumptions sometimes around
• 1:30:01
  the global south doing a worse job at
• 1:30:05
  this and I definitely have
• 1:30:06
  not found that to be true
• 1:30:08
  right, I think um
• 1:30:11
  I don't necessarily focus
• 1:30:13
  so much on
• 1:30:16
  Evaluating whether a
• 1:30:18
  fisheries law is adequate. Yes or no
• 1:30:21
  simply because I
• 1:30:25
  I it's just really like I said, I think
• 1:30:27
  to really fully understand the law
• 1:30:30
  it's also just the
• 1:30:32
  uh legal context and kind of the culture
• 1:30:34
  like for instance if you look at
• 1:30:36
  fisheries transparency
• 1:30:38
  There will be in some
• 1:30:39
  countries. It's absolutely
• 1:30:41
  Not a problem to be super transparent
• 1:30:43
  about whatever is going on in
• 1:30:46
  Your you know the allocation of fisheries
• 1:30:48
  authorizations catch data all these
• 1:30:51
  different fisheries data elements
• 1:30:54
  There's absolutely no problem because
• 1:30:55
  these are countries
• 1:30:56
  that generally have a very
• 1:30:58
  long-standing legal tradition of
• 1:31:00
  transparency where they view natural
• 1:31:02
  resources as a common good and the people
• 1:31:05
  have a right to know that which great
• 1:31:08
  um, but there's a lot of countries that
• 1:31:10
  don't necessarily have this tradition and
• 1:31:12
  kind of forcing that
• 1:31:13
  same approach on them
• 1:31:14
  Is just not going to work and it's going
• 1:31:16
  to make people maybe very uncomfortable
• 1:31:18
  and yeah, um, so I think
• 1:31:21
  I wouldn't be able to
• 1:31:23
  speak intelligently to
• 1:31:25
  You know, what's what are the good
• 1:31:27
  fisheries policies and you know, the
• 1:31:28
  world is is a big place
• 1:31:30
  it's also not my intent necessarily to
• 1:31:32
  pass judgment on
• 1:31:34
  individual fisheries policies or
• 1:31:37
  uh legislation what
• 1:31:38
  i'm more interested in is
• 1:31:40
  Having, you know on a global level with
• 1:31:43
  the seafood sector
• 1:31:44
  where there's a lot of NGOs
• 1:31:46
  Yeah, having them focus more on the roles
• 1:31:50
  that states have whether
• 1:31:52
  they're doing a good job now
• 1:31:53
  or not, but to really focus on
• 1:31:57
  Keeping states accountable
• 1:31:59
  because they do have
• 1:32:02
  Responsibility to properly manage their
• 1:32:03
  response their fisheries resources under
• 1:32:07
  uh, the international law of the sea so
• 1:32:10
  there is that obligation and
• 1:32:14
  uh, I would really like to
• 1:32:16
  see that the the sector and the
• 1:32:20
  Different NGOs working in that sector
• 1:32:22
  focus much more on that and uh,
• 1:32:25
  Because whether they're
• 1:32:27
  already doing a good job
• 1:32:28
  Or not so much or maybe they
• 1:32:30
  just don't know where to start
• 1:32:33
  I think a lot of focus should go on
• 1:32:35
  building that capacity and
• 1:32:37
  creating more awareness, uh on
• 1:32:40
  What is going on there? Why is it failing
• 1:32:42
  and also being a little bit more tangible
• 1:32:45
  about that and not just like
• 1:32:47
  a state is doing a bad job and their
• 1:32:49
  fisheries management system is
• 1:32:51
  inadequate, but more like
• 1:32:53
  really
• 1:32:54
  Tangibly think about what are systems?
• 1:32:58
  that you know certain legislation can
• 1:33:00
  keep in place that are really enabling
• 1:33:03
  For this type of illicit activity to take
• 1:33:06
  place and for an example
• 1:33:08
  could be for instance. Okay. How
• 1:33:10
  does a country?
• 1:33:12
  You know capture information around the
• 1:33:15
  ultimate beneficial owner of a vessel
• 1:33:19
  And uh, how does it share that
• 1:33:21
  information with stakeholders?
• 1:33:23
  If the state doesn't have enough
• 1:33:25
  capacity, how is it relying on other
• 1:33:28
  could be public
• 1:33:29
  international institutions or?
• 1:33:31
  um NGOs to increase that capacity and
• 1:33:37
  So I think there's a lot of work to be
• 1:33:39
  done in focusing on what states are doing
• 1:33:43
  But i'd like to approach that not so much
• 1:33:45
  from uh, let's categorize it
• 1:33:47
  and say this good bad, uh, worst
• 1:33:49
  um, but more from okay, what
• 1:33:53
  Should be done. What is important? What
• 1:33:54
  are the risks? What should be considered
• 1:33:57
  for these systems and
• 1:33:59
  um
• 1:34:01
  Focus a lot more on pushing states to do
• 1:34:03
  the right thing there
• 1:34:06
  That's a that's an interesting concept
• 1:34:07
  right is to understand what's you know,
• 1:34:10
  what's happening. What's the risks?
• 1:34:12
  There are so many states it's really
• 1:34:14
  difficult to try and blanket
• 1:34:16
  Legislation for the world obviously the
• 1:34:19
  question I asked before was a little
• 1:34:20
  loaded because it was like hey, how's
• 1:34:21
  every how's all the fishing
• 1:34:23
  Legislation around the world working
• 1:34:25
  obviously that's very different different
• 1:34:26
  cultures different
• 1:34:27
  places around the world
• 1:34:28
  Everything is so unique
• 1:34:30
  When we we look at specific legislation
• 1:34:33
  and I assume that's what you you're doing
• 1:34:35
  and you're going to
• 1:34:36
  talk about for you know
• 1:34:37
  your consultant any day
• 1:34:40
  And and to look at specific legislation
• 1:34:42
  and to analyze that and say here's the
• 1:34:44
  here this this the
• 1:34:45
  good part of legislation
• 1:34:47
  What's working?
• 1:34:47
  Here's what's not working?
• 1:34:50
  and then to push that
• 1:34:51
  state to you know repair or to
• 1:34:55
  um
• 1:34:56
  You know build a stronger legislation to
• 1:34:59
  help not only the fishing community, but
• 1:35:01
  also the seafood sector
• 1:35:02
  within that within that state
• 1:35:04
  That is complex in itself to to be able
• 1:35:07
  to do that because some states may not be
• 1:35:09
  May not be willing to make those changes
• 1:35:12
  When you do an analysis on a on a policy
• 1:35:14
  like that or on a on
• 1:35:16
  a piece of legislation
• 1:35:18
  What's your approach?
• 1:35:20
  When you start to to look at that
• 1:35:21
  understanding that some states may not
• 1:35:23
  want to change too much
• 1:35:24
  because we know humans
• 1:35:25
  We don't like change, right? Yes. No, and
• 1:35:28
  it's like I said, it's
• 1:35:30
  also very political and it's
• 1:35:33
  it's not just a bunch of rules right and
• 1:35:36
  But what I love and what I have very
• 1:35:38
  particularly chosen is to be in the role
• 1:35:41
  of a researcher and an advisor
• 1:35:43
  I am not necessarily pushing an agenda.
• 1:35:46
  Sure. Like I said, I'm pushing for
• 1:35:48
  attention more on certain elements
• 1:35:51
  and uh
• 1:35:53
  But not so much saying oh, this is
• 1:35:55
  exactly the level of
• 1:35:56
  transparency that a state should have
• 1:35:59
  Because that's not my field of expertise
• 1:36:01
  that there are other NGOs that are, you
• 1:36:03
  know doing great job at researching that
• 1:36:06
  uh, so what I
• 1:36:08
  do is
• 1:36:10
  Now particularly one thing that I do
• 1:36:12
  really believe in is
• 1:36:13
  fisheries transparency
• 1:36:15
  and when we say
• 1:36:17
  fisheries transparency at
• 1:36:19
  least when when I say it, um
• 1:36:22
  I
• 1:36:23
  Think you know that having that public
• 1:36:25
  availability of
• 1:36:26
  information is crucial. Um
• 1:36:29
  But I don't necessarily
• 1:36:31
  uh
• 1:36:32
  Think that you know, we should encourage
• 1:36:34
  states to just put any
• 1:36:36
  fisheries data out there
• 1:36:38
  I think we need to really emphasize
• 1:36:41
  um and consider, okay,
• 1:36:42
  what type of fisheries data
• 1:36:45
  is
• 1:36:46
  valuable
• 1:36:47
  For so what are NGOs interested in? So
• 1:36:50
  look at all these fisheries data elements
• 1:36:52
  which ones do the NGOs even care about?
• 1:36:55
  Um, and which ones can they actually
• 1:36:56
  translate into meaningful impact like for
• 1:36:59
  instance that increased capacity and
• 1:37:00
  there are a number of
• 1:37:02
  uh
• 1:37:03
  civil society organizations that are
• 1:37:05
  really doing great job like
• 1:37:07
  Think you have like tmt you have of
• 1:37:09
  course global fishing watch oceana is
• 1:37:11
  really pushing for that transparency
• 1:37:13
  Pew published a lot of great research.
• 1:37:15
  So, you know, there are definitely those
• 1:37:17
  groups that I really
• 1:37:18
  think have an amazingly
• 1:37:21
  great focus and um
• 1:37:26
  But I don't and
• 1:37:28
  Whatever they could use I think there
• 1:37:30
  should be a conversation around. Okay.
• 1:37:32
  Can that type of
• 1:37:33
  fisheries data be shared?
• 1:37:36
  with them
• 1:37:37
  but there's also the
• 1:37:39
  um
• 1:37:40
  other side
• 1:37:42
  of the equation which is concerns about
• 1:37:45
  privacy or proprietary information
• 1:37:48
  And that is something that i'm focusing
• 1:37:51
  on particularly right now
• 1:37:53
  where it is um
• 1:37:55
  And this is very common in international
• 1:37:57
  law where you have maybe an
• 1:37:59
  obligation or kind of a goal
• 1:38:01
  um on the one hand, but on the other
• 1:38:04
  hand, you do have rights of individuals
• 1:38:07
  And you need to find a proper balance
• 1:38:09
  there. So you can just there are
• 1:38:12
  certain data elements linked to fisheries
• 1:38:14
  that are also linked to individuals
• 1:38:15
  because people work on vessels people own
• 1:38:18
  vessels people benefit from
• 1:38:21
  uh the vessel activity so
• 1:38:23
  There there is a link there between uh,
• 1:38:27
  intellectual property law or personal
• 1:38:28
  data protection law, you
• 1:38:30
  know the right to privacy
• 1:38:32
  And what i'm doing now
• 1:38:33
  specifically is researching. Um
• 1:38:36
  Okay, where?
• 1:38:39
  uh, you know i'm
• 1:38:40
  currently looking at a case
• 1:38:42
  30 case studies of different countries
• 1:38:44
  where i'm looking at all of the
• 1:38:46
  protections that could
• 1:38:48
  possibly exist for fisheries data
• 1:38:51
  so, uh first is uh
• 1:38:54
  Looking at okay. Is
• 1:38:56
  there any way you can?
• 1:38:58
  um
• 1:38:59
  Under this jurisdiction should uh certain
• 1:39:02
  data elements be protected and um
• 1:39:05
  Or
• 1:39:08
  Because you know, it might violate the
• 1:39:09
  right privacy of a person that's on board
• 1:39:11
  of the vessel or it might uh, you know
• 1:39:14
  Give away a trade secret because where
• 1:39:16
  they're fishing how they're fishing etc
• 1:39:18
  is something that's
• 1:39:19
  benefiting their company, etc
• 1:39:21
  Where type of protections you find really
• 1:39:23
  depends on the jurisdiction the legal
• 1:39:25
  culture just uh, uh a lot of different
• 1:39:27
  elements there. It's
• 1:39:28
  um
• 1:39:29
  But basically the first question there is
• 1:39:31
  do these barriers exist?
• 1:39:33
  because a lot of countries sometimes keep
• 1:39:37
  the door close to
• 1:39:38
  certain ngo's because they say
• 1:39:40
  These barriers exist and sometimes ngo's
• 1:39:42
  don't quite believe that and they feel
• 1:39:45
  they're just unwilling
• 1:39:45
  to collaborate with them
• 1:39:47
  So my first approach is really just to
• 1:39:49
  see okay. Is that assumption of the
• 1:39:51
  unwillingness and true?
• 1:39:53
  Uh, because if it is true then okay
• 1:39:56
  um
• 1:39:57
  There then you need
• 1:39:59
  to find a way, you know
• 1:40:00
  If if that is really the barrier that
• 1:40:02
  they see you need to
• 1:40:02
  find a way to work around it
• 1:40:04
  Yes
• 1:40:04
  And very often in the law there are all
• 1:40:06
  these exceptions that are foreseen or
• 1:40:08
  things you can do to mitigate the risk
• 1:40:10
  Around you know data being leaked or
• 1:40:13
  being made public etc
• 1:40:14
  So it's definitely not
• 1:40:15
  that if you know, you find one
• 1:40:18
  Challenge somewhere that there's there's
• 1:40:20
  no way to still achieve a higher level of
• 1:40:23
  fisheries transparency
• 1:40:24
  But I think we just need to be very
• 1:40:26
  diligent about okay. What data elements
• 1:40:28
  are we talking about? Is it valuable?
• 1:40:30
  Okay for these ones
• 1:40:31
  where we know it is valuable
• 1:40:32
  What are the legal barriers that may
• 1:40:34
  exist and they don't
• 1:40:35
  come from fisheries law?
• 1:40:36
  They come from all these
• 1:40:37
  other fields of private law that
• 1:40:39
  Everyone kind of fails to consider
• 1:40:41
  because who knows anything about personal
• 1:40:43
  data protection when they work in a
• 1:40:44
  ministry of fisheries
• 1:40:45
  like it's so true, so it
• 1:40:47
  makes perfect sense and um
• 1:40:51
  Okay, if there is that barrier then you
• 1:40:54
  can say okay, this is how we can kind of
• 1:40:57
  Work around that how we can like navigate
• 1:40:59
  the law and then if there's still
• 1:41:03
  No response from that state. They're
• 1:41:04
  still like no, we're
• 1:41:05
  absolutely not going to work with you
• 1:41:07
  And they're not going to give a good
• 1:41:09
  reason why they don't want
• 1:41:10
  to increase the transparency
• 1:41:12
  Then you know you have an unwilling
• 1:41:14
  state, but until that time you just don't
• 1:41:16
  know you're making assumptions
• 1:41:18
  Right and I understand that's the role of
• 1:41:21
  NGO sometimes is to like kick and scream
• 1:41:23
  and say what's wrong with the world, but
• 1:41:25
  i'd like to bring in a little bit of
• 1:41:28
  nuance, uh, yeah
• 1:41:30
  I really hope no NGOs take offense at
• 1:41:32
  what I just said, but
• 1:41:35
  Well, I mean it's true like look let's be
• 1:41:37
  honest when it comes to fisheries,
• 1:41:38
  especially if if a country is not willing
• 1:41:42
  To work with an NGO on a
• 1:41:43
  particular item their job
• 1:41:45
  You know depending on what NGO it is a
• 1:41:48
  lot of them their job is either to work
• 1:41:50
  with them to be like
• 1:41:50
  Hey, let's try and figure out
• 1:41:52
  You know what the barriers are just like
• 1:41:54
  like what you're saying here
• 1:41:55
  Uh, but others will will get a little bit
• 1:41:57
  more aggressive and
• 1:41:58
  they'll press they'll become more
• 1:42:00
  They'll go from
• 1:42:01
  Advocation to to activism, you know, and
• 1:42:05
  they'll say look we don't like the way
• 1:42:06
  you get the naming and shaming and
• 1:42:08
  Naming and shaming
• 1:42:09
  and protesting and those
• 1:42:11
  Yeah, yeah, and look they I feel like I
• 1:42:13
  agree with you. I feel like there's a
• 1:42:15
  there's a time and place
• 1:42:16
  Uh for it and
• 1:42:18
  sometimes it brings attention
• 1:42:20
  We there's always arguments on what type
• 1:42:22
  of attention is good attention is
• 1:42:24
  negative or positive
• 1:42:25
  um, and and there's there's a degree of
• 1:42:28
  necessity for some of those organizations
• 1:42:29
  to exist and to do what they do
• 1:42:31
  But let's be honest the collaboration
• 1:42:34
  Come the the the advancement comes from
• 1:42:37
  collaboration the advancement comes from
• 1:42:38
  little empathy going
• 1:42:39
  It's like totally understand where you're
• 1:42:41
  coming from. You've had
• 1:42:42
  this problem in the past
• 1:42:43
  You know, you really have to get to know
• 1:42:44
  the state to just be like
• 1:42:46
  Where are you coming from? How like why
• 1:42:49
  are you progressing this way?
• 1:42:51
  We would love to offer you some help if
• 1:42:53
  needed if you would like it. Not every
• 1:42:55
  state is going to accept it
• 1:42:57
  Um, some are some aren't I feel like
• 1:42:59
  these days though and you can correct me
• 1:43:00
  if I'm wrong because you
• 1:43:00
  probably work with a lot
• 1:43:01
  Of these different states
• 1:43:03
  Do you find most of them are coming in
• 1:43:05
  with a little bit more?
• 1:43:06
  optimism in terms of working with other
• 1:43:10
  companies or organizations to
• 1:43:12
  better their fisheries
• 1:43:14
  I think a lot of states
• 1:43:16
  particularly when they
• 1:43:18
  have challenges in the
• 1:43:20
  capacity they um can be very willing and
• 1:43:25
  uh, at least the
• 1:43:25
  people you talk to it's it's
• 1:43:27
  Question sometimes whether the broader
• 1:43:28
  political system is as willing because
• 1:43:30
  they have different
• 1:43:31
  priorities, but of course it's um
• 1:43:35
  Yeah, certainly and now I just gave the
• 1:43:36
  example of working with NGOs, right?
• 1:43:39
  And i'm not saying that states are
• 1:43:40
  obligated to work with NGOs
• 1:43:42
  I'm just saying there are a lot of NGOs
• 1:43:44
  that are doing great work when it comes
• 1:43:46
  to fisheries transparency
• 1:43:48
  And if there is a need for more capacity
• 1:43:51
  if there's a need for that support. Yeah,
• 1:43:53
  I think it's a really great
• 1:43:55
  Uh option and it would be
• 1:43:57
  a waste basically to yeah
• 1:43:59
  have these
• 1:44:01
  Just because you don't
• 1:44:02
  quite know how to work with
• 1:44:05
  Uh balancing these different areas of law
• 1:44:07
  and these different interests
• 1:44:08
  to not move forward with that
• 1:44:10
  I just think that
• 1:44:10
  would be a waste. So that's
• 1:44:12
  uh, but i'm not saying they're obligated
• 1:44:15
  to do that. They're
• 1:44:15
  just obligated to have a
• 1:44:18
  adequate system for
• 1:44:20
  uh
• 1:44:21
  managing their fishery resources
• 1:44:23
  and
• 1:44:24
  um
• 1:44:24
  If they already do that
• 1:44:27
  Great, right. Yeah, but I very
• 1:44:29
  uh
• 1:44:30
  Now feel like so these are the the states
• 1:44:33
  the NGOs that are
• 1:44:35
  focusing on working with states
• 1:44:37
  um, and I think that's
• 1:44:40
  Great
• 1:44:41
  and
• 1:44:42
  I see that the large majority of NGOs in
• 1:44:45
  the sector are not even doing that
• 1:44:46
  they're not focused at all on states
• 1:44:48
  They're more like oh, yeah fisheries
• 1:44:50
  management's not really
• 1:44:51
  doing the job. It should do so
• 1:44:53
  Let's just come up with all these private
• 1:44:55
  mechanisms. That's going to kind of fill
• 1:44:57
  that gap and it just doesn't because
• 1:44:59
  a private institute, you know, sure they
• 1:45:03
  can there are examples of
• 1:45:04
  them doing a good job, um
• 1:45:07
  but
• 1:45:09
  ultimately
• 1:45:10
  I feel like it's such
• 1:45:11
  a large group focusing
• 1:45:14
  only on private efforts not at all on uh,
• 1:45:16
  the role of public institutions
• 1:45:18
  That gives me kind of the impression that
• 1:45:20
  we're very distracted with what really
• 1:45:23
  matters, which is a more sustainable
• 1:45:26
  sustainable as in long-term
• 1:45:28
  change of how we manage fisheries
• 1:45:30
  Uh to really create a more responsible
• 1:45:32
  and equitable sector
• 1:45:34
  So that worries me
• 1:45:37
  um
• 1:45:37
  and I think it's
• 1:45:40
  You know private mechanisms. They're not
• 1:45:42
  able to do the same things
• 1:45:44
  that states can they don't
• 1:45:46
  participate in rfmo's they don't
• 1:45:50
  uh, they're they don't have a
• 1:45:52
  they're not involved with
• 1:45:55
  the
• 1:45:57
  creation, uh of new treaties like you
• 1:46:00
  have now the high seas treaties that
• 1:46:02
  we're waiting to have
• 1:46:03
  enough states ratify that like
• 1:46:05
  Why aren't more?
• 1:46:06
  And she was pushing states to ratify this
• 1:46:08
  treaty like there is an
• 1:46:09
  instrument that can really
• 1:46:11
  uh
• 1:46:12
  provide support in this
• 1:46:15
  International collaboration that we need
• 1:46:16
  and no instead we're here just you know
• 1:46:21
  Working with all these
• 1:46:23
  Different mechanisms that are just
• 1:46:25
  tackling such a small part of the issue
• 1:46:28
  um
• 1:46:30
  and I feel like a lot of
• 1:46:32
  Time and energy goes goes wasted there
• 1:46:35
  and that is why you know, I say generally
• 1:46:37
  i'm not necessarily the one
• 1:46:40
  That feels particularly comfortable with
• 1:46:42
  passing judgment on you know
• 1:46:44
  states not doing good job here
• 1:46:45
  Well, because understands the very
• 1:46:47
  complex system that
• 1:46:48
  they're part of of course
• 1:46:49
  But when it comes to an NGO, I you know
• 1:46:51
  Maybe it is because I have worked for an
• 1:46:53
  NGO in the past and I know this sector.
• 1:46:54
  Well, it's I do feel a
• 1:46:56
  bit more comfortable being
• 1:46:57
  like
• 1:46:58
  No, i've been here now for eight years
• 1:47:00
  and I think you're wrong. I
• 1:47:01
  think this approach is just uh
• 1:47:06
  It's a bandage
• 1:47:08
  Sure, it might do something right, but
• 1:47:09
  right let's not lose
• 1:47:12
  Track of what really matters here and
• 1:47:13
  that's what states are doing
• 1:47:15
  And I really really i'm such a big
• 1:47:18
  supporter of the NGOs
• 1:47:19
  that are really supporting
• 1:47:21
  States directly or that
• 1:47:22
  are pushing states directly
• 1:47:24
  Or that are maybe taking part in in these
• 1:47:26
  types of meetings like you have the UN
• 1:47:28
  ocean conference or
• 1:47:29
  you have the sometimes
• 1:47:31
  NGOs also have a seat with
• 1:47:34
  Rfms at least in a advisory capacity like
• 1:47:38
  all of that amazing
• 1:47:39
  keep doing great work there
• 1:47:42
  But ultimately it should be focused on
• 1:47:44
  that primary responsibility
• 1:47:47
  And that lies with states and they just
• 1:47:49
  have so much more power so much more
• 1:47:50
  means to achieve that
• 1:47:52
  Yeah, and we need to kind of stop
• 1:47:56
  putting mandates everywhere because we're
• 1:47:57
  just creating a lot of confusion and
• 1:48:00
  Maybe also unwillingness to even talk
• 1:48:01
  about sustainability anymore. Yeah, it's
• 1:48:04
  true though. I I agree
• 1:48:05
  That's it tends to not
• 1:48:07
  get be the focus anymore
• 1:48:08
  There's seem to be more short-term
• 1:48:10
  bandages and short-term
• 1:48:11
  changes, but not nothing long-term
• 1:48:14
  When it comes to the work
• 1:48:16
  that you do at natural justice
• 1:48:18
  Um, can you talk a little bit about that
• 1:48:20
  you talk about doing research and looking
• 1:48:22
  at policies looking at laws?
• 1:48:23
  Can you maybe give us an example of some
• 1:48:25
  of the projects that you're
• 1:48:26
  that you're able to talk about?
• 1:48:28
  Yeah, certainly. So I
• 1:48:30
  Do different projects.
• 1:48:31
  It kind of depends on
• 1:48:33
  One side I do work with these different
• 1:48:36
  NGOs or they're not even really NGOs.
• 1:48:39
  They're more like
• 1:48:39
  civil society organizations
• 1:48:41
  Uh because they're not
• 1:48:42
  in the field of advocacy
• 1:48:44
  uh, but the different
• 1:48:46
  civil society organizations that are
• 1:48:48
  working on fisheries transparency and I
• 1:48:52
  do legal research on
• 1:48:54
  the examples that I gave of
• 1:48:56
  Personal data protection for instance or
• 1:48:58
  intellectual property law where they're
• 1:49:00
  running into legal barriers and they're
• 1:49:01
  just trying to understand
• 1:49:02
  Okay, is this indeed what you know, these
• 1:49:06
  government representatives have told us
• 1:49:07
  and if so, how can we
• 1:49:09
  change our approach?
• 1:49:11
  To still be able to work with them to
• 1:49:13
  still achieve our mission.
• 1:49:13
  Yes, which I uh fully applaud
• 1:49:15
  I think that's a great way of of trying
• 1:49:17
  to achieve it where it's like
• 1:49:18
  Okay, if not this way then this way
• 1:49:20
  because no one said it
• 1:49:21
  was going to be easy, right?
• 1:49:22
  It's it's okay to hit hit
• 1:49:23
  these different roadblocks and um
• 1:49:26
  Well, and sometimes the lawmakers don't
• 1:49:27
  know the law sometimes they don't know
• 1:49:29
  the policies are there
• 1:49:30
  We've kind of seen it here in north
• 1:49:31
  america with the new us president or the
• 1:49:34
  returning us president
• 1:49:35
  talking about certain things
• 1:49:36
  Like I can do this I can do that
• 1:49:37
  But then when it comes down to the court
• 1:49:40
  You can't do a lot of those policies and
• 1:49:42
  laws because you just weren't aware of
• 1:49:44
  what was of what was
• 1:49:45
  happening before. You know, it's very
• 1:49:47
  Uh true. Yeah often people can work at a
• 1:49:50
  government, but don't
• 1:49:51
  understand the law at all
• 1:49:53
  But even lawyers they will be so
• 1:49:54
  specialized in their field that they
• 1:49:56
  don't understand how their field
• 1:49:57
  interacts with other fields
• 1:49:59
  True, especially when you talk about
• 1:50:00
  broadening the type of laws that are
• 1:50:02
  coming in for privacy
• 1:50:03
  and so forth, right?
• 1:50:04
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I mean I never
• 1:50:07
  focused on personal
• 1:50:09
  data protection necessarily
• 1:50:09
  uh that much in law
• 1:50:12
  school i'm lucky that I am from
• 1:50:15
  a
• 1:50:16
  European law like that's I was educated
• 1:50:18
  in a european law school and that
• 1:50:20
  personal data protection
• 1:50:21
  is very much something where
• 1:50:23
  The eu has has pushed a lot for that and
• 1:50:25
  it's yeah, they take it seriously. Yeah
• 1:50:26
  Yeah, so you so you see
• 1:50:28
  a lot of the different
• 1:50:31
  countries particularly civil law
• 1:50:32
  countries, so those
• 1:50:33
  are countries that have a
• 1:50:35
  legal system based off of the french
• 1:50:37
  system where everything will be very much
• 1:50:40
  already dictated in the
• 1:50:41
  law and then the court's
• 1:50:44
  um
• 1:50:45
  role is to interpret that law that is uh,
• 1:50:48
  generally you see a lot
• 1:50:50
  of those countries have
• 1:50:51
  Personal data protection laws that are
• 1:50:53
  very similar to what the eu
• 1:50:54
  um has done because I
• 1:50:56
  guess they're kind of the
• 1:50:58
  um
• 1:51:00
  Leading um, I guess a lot
• 1:51:02
  of the development there
• 1:51:03
  But if you look at countries like the us
• 1:51:05
  or canada where it's a common law system
• 1:51:07
  It will be very different and also the
• 1:51:10
  legal barriers you're going to run into
• 1:51:11
  they're going to be very different
• 1:51:13
  so
• 1:51:14
  That is a bit novel to me
• 1:51:16
  But you know, I talk to a
• 1:51:19
  lot of lawyers from different
• 1:51:21
  areas and a lot of stakeholders that are
• 1:51:24
  more on the other side that are running
• 1:51:25
  into these legal barriers
• 1:51:28
  And with all of that i'm trying to kind
• 1:51:30
  of make some sort of sense
• 1:51:31
  of it. Yeah, it's definitely
• 1:51:34
  uh
• 1:51:35
  uncharted territory sometimes
• 1:51:38
  Because people that are interested in
• 1:51:39
  fisheries, they're not going to
• 1:51:40
  specialize in
• 1:51:40
  personal data protection. No
• 1:51:42
  I'm lucky because I just love law. It's
• 1:51:45
  just one big puzzle to
• 1:51:46
  me. I can look at it all day
• 1:51:48
  I'm just like analyzing stuff. It's
• 1:51:52
  I just born to do legal work. Basically.
• 1:51:55
  I also know it sounds
• 1:51:56
  extremely boring to a lot of people
• 1:51:59
  And if you're like i'm going to go into
• 1:52:00
  the fisheries sector marine
• 1:52:01
  conservation, it's exciting
• 1:52:03
  you're not going to want to
• 1:52:04
  specialize in those areas and um
• 1:52:08
  so I don't expect people that work for a
• 1:52:10
  ministry of fisheries to to
• 1:52:11
  know a lot about that because
• 1:52:13
  They might think it's not that relevant,
• 1:52:14
  but it is a lot of different
• 1:52:18
  legal protections will be relevant for
• 1:52:19
  fisheries because we're talking about
• 1:52:22
  fisheries data and data is such a
• 1:52:24
  topic right now where we're talking a lot
• 1:52:26
  about how do we balance
• 1:52:28
  the availability of data with
• 1:52:31
  uh privacy and
• 1:52:33
  national security for sure and
• 1:52:36
  all these different
• 1:52:37
  different elements, so it's
• 1:52:40
  It's really quite important, but it is
• 1:52:41
  also extremely niche
• 1:52:43
  and
• 1:52:44
  um
• 1:52:45
  Yeah government representatives and even
• 1:52:47
  lawyers. They won't always know
• 1:52:49
  everything. I definitely don't pretend
• 1:52:50
  like I know everything
• 1:52:52
  I just know that i'm focused on it and
• 1:52:55
  every day I try and learn a little bit
• 1:52:56
  more about it and every day
• 1:52:58
  I try and solve this
• 1:52:59
  puzzle a little bit more for the
• 1:53:02
  uh civil society organizations that are
• 1:53:04
  trying to work with states
• 1:53:05
  on fisheries transparency
• 1:53:08
  I also work on agriculture
• 1:53:10
  and uh there we're looking also a lot at
• 1:53:13
  not just the law and policy but also a
• 1:53:15
  lot at the science and
• 1:53:16
  basically just kind of
• 1:53:17
  bringing all of that together and
• 1:53:19
  What I really like is generally with
• 1:53:21
  natural justice is to bring more
• 1:53:24
  I guess nuance and also just more
• 1:53:28
  Very clear and transparent thinking of
• 1:53:31
  okay. Why are we you know, we're doing a
• 1:53:33
  gap analysis. Okay.
• 1:53:34
  What's this framework?
• 1:53:35
  What have we based that on and it's just
• 1:53:37
  going to be purely based on science law?
• 1:53:39
  Yeah, very tangible things
• 1:53:41
  that are not that political
• 1:53:43
  um
• 1:53:44
  and just comparing it with that with the
• 1:53:47
  conclusions it's really up to the the
• 1:53:49
  clients that we work with to
• 1:53:51
  do with that what uh
• 1:53:53
  they see fit but um
• 1:53:56
  yeah, really just bringing in very
• 1:53:57
  thorough analysis and
• 1:53:59
  because we are not a
• 1:54:01
  civil society
• 1:54:02
  organization as in that we are
• 1:54:05
  We're trying to make an impact, but we're
• 1:54:07
  not a not-for-profit. So
• 1:54:08
  we don't depend on funding
• 1:54:10
  We can work on what we want. Well, of
• 1:54:13
  course, we need to have
• 1:54:14
  clients that actually pay us
• 1:54:15
  otherwise i'm doing a
• 1:54:15
  lot of volunteering, but
• 1:54:18
  It's
• 1:54:19
  We're pretty free in that sense. Yeah at
• 1:54:22
  least yeah, I think that's great
• 1:54:25
  Yeah, 100. I think it's great because it
• 1:54:26
  allows you to you know, get that
• 1:54:29
  creativity it allows
• 1:54:31
  you to really expand and and also take
• 1:54:34
  from you know one state and apply what
• 1:54:36
  would benefit to another state or
• 1:54:38
  You know vice versa and I think that
• 1:54:40
  Gives you that freedom to do that instead
• 1:54:42
  if you work for one state or
• 1:54:43
  you work for it in jail within
• 1:54:44
  You know within a confines
• 1:54:45
  of one place you can really
• 1:54:48
  Go across sectors within fisheries and
• 1:54:50
  across states, which I
• 1:54:51
  think is really important
• 1:54:52
  It's and it's what needed and I think it
• 1:54:54
  allows you to build that experience
• 1:54:56
  uh to to focus on that which which I
• 1:54:58
  which I think is wonderful really
• 1:55:00
  grateful as well for having been able to
• 1:55:04
  build a good network where I
• 1:55:07
  See there's different worlds that i'm
• 1:55:10
  sometimes and they don't interact that
• 1:55:12
  much with each other
• 1:55:12
  But I try and interact with all of them.
• 1:55:14
  So yeah, this research actually that I
• 1:55:17
  was talking about the legal barriers
• 1:55:19
  or legal protections
• 1:55:20
  of fisheries data, um,
• 1:55:22
  uh initiated that as a phd at
• 1:55:26
  University of hombre so through that i'm
• 1:55:28
  also part of this like legal scholar
• 1:55:30
  community that just like
• 1:55:32
  talks about law of the sea
• 1:55:33
  And all those things and that's just a
• 1:55:35
  completely separate
• 1:55:36
  world and then uh, my world
• 1:55:38
  like my work world is mostly in
• 1:55:42
  The seafood sector where I am in contact
• 1:55:44
  with a lot of civil society
• 1:55:46
  organizations, but also
• 1:55:47
  with supply chain companies
• 1:55:49
  and um
• 1:55:51
  But I also and this is mostly through
• 1:55:53
  uh, I think coursework and then uh
• 1:55:57
  coursework that I was able
• 1:55:58
  to do through fao and then
• 1:56:00
  um now linking that to my research as
• 1:56:03
  well, I talk to a lot of
• 1:56:05
  government representatives
• 1:56:07
  so i'm really able to learn from the
• 1:56:09
  experience of a lot of different people
• 1:56:11
  with very different
• 1:56:12
  perspectives on this and it's
• 1:56:16
  I think really helpful to
• 1:56:18
  yeah, love kind of
• 1:56:20
  Would love it if natural justice, you
• 1:56:22
  know, like maybe five years from now
• 1:56:24
  I can say like actually we've helped to
• 1:56:27
  kind of build bridges a little bit
• 1:56:29
  between those worlds like bring more of
• 1:56:30
  that understanding of
• 1:56:31
  the legal perspective
• 1:56:32
  into the seafood sector, um
• 1:56:35
  as well as
• 1:56:37
  you know to
• 1:56:39
  government
• 1:56:40
  Representatives where i've you know i've
• 1:56:42
  taken the example of legal
• 1:56:44
  barriers to working with ngoes
• 1:56:46
  but it can even be
• 1:56:48
  There's many examples of legal barriers
• 1:56:50
  of different public
• 1:56:52
  institutes of one state
• 1:56:54
  Not being able to share
• 1:56:55
  certain fisheries data
• 1:56:58
  Between them because it was confidential
• 1:57:01
  and I couldn't be
• 1:57:01
  shared to another institute
• 1:57:03
  So, you know, it really just is relevant
• 1:57:05
  for different levels and with that for
• 1:57:07
  different stakeholders
• 1:57:09
  And yeah, I really love
• 1:57:11
  kind of building those bridges
• 1:57:12
  But also just feel very fortunate that I
• 1:57:15
  can learn from a lot of these firsthand
• 1:57:16
  experiences because I
• 1:57:18
  certainly don't have them
• 1:57:19
  Yeah for sure. No, I love
• 1:57:21
  it. I love this has been
• 1:57:23
  amazing to dive deep into
• 1:57:25
  You know
• 1:57:26
  All these different types of policies and
• 1:57:27
  laws and where we're at and where we need
• 1:57:28
  to go and the research
• 1:57:29
  that you've been able
• 1:57:30
  to accomplish
• 1:57:31
  It seems like you're just scratching the
• 1:57:33
  surface, you know from from your career
• 1:57:35
  and and really getting into it
• 1:57:37
  I love it and i'd love to have you back
• 1:57:39
  on invite you back on to talk more and on
• 1:57:41
  a more regular basis because I feel like
• 1:57:43
  you could become our
• 1:57:44
  Our correspondent for law and fisheries.
• 1:57:46
  I think it'd be it would be a lot of fun
• 1:57:48
  um in one last question in terms of like
• 1:57:51
  the future of fisheries and law like
• 1:57:54
  Where do you think we really need to
• 1:57:56
  focus in to really, you
• 1:57:58
  know protect our fisheries?
• 1:58:00
  Overall, it doesn't have to be specific
• 1:58:02
  But just overall that you've seen in
• 1:58:03
  terms of trends of the work
• 1:58:05
  that you've been able to to do
• 1:58:08
  Is that a very
• 1:58:10
  It's a big question
• 1:58:11
  question, but I think for me right now
• 1:58:14
  with what i've seen for
• 1:58:16
  me the biggest point is
• 1:58:18
  Because governments they're like I said
• 1:58:20
  i've emphasized a lot they're
• 1:58:22
  responsible, but they're also
• 1:58:24
  In a system that it's it's not
• 1:58:27
  necessarily that they can
• 1:58:27
  change things overnight, right?
• 1:58:29
  and I
• 1:58:31
  recognize that in the interim we do need
• 1:58:34
  The private sector to step up and make
• 1:58:36
  sure that they're still sourcing seafood
• 1:58:38
  Properly and they rely on NGOs to do that
• 1:58:41
  and that is all fine, but I would still
• 1:58:46
  Like to really see that instead of
• 1:58:48
  finding each other on
• 1:58:50
  which private mechanism is best
• 1:58:53
  There would be maybe a little bit more
• 1:58:55
  alignment within that
• 1:58:57
  fishery sector and with that
• 1:59:00
  more focus on
• 1:59:03
  Pushing states to at least for instance
• 1:59:05
  ratify these international treaties like
• 1:59:07
  i've mentioned the high seed treaty
• 1:59:09
  but there's also one from the
• 1:59:11
  World Trade Organization on the
• 1:59:16
  Ill-directed subsidies that
• 1:59:18
  we see a lot with fisheries
• 1:59:20
  So if we can get more of a push to at
• 1:59:22
  least at the international level
• 1:59:24
  Push states to do the right thing
• 1:59:26
  And then we can take that next step on
• 1:59:28
  focusing how we can best as a sector
• 1:59:31
  really
• 1:59:32
  push them to
• 1:59:37
  Responsibly manage those fisheries
• 1:59:40
  resources and I think that could be
• 1:59:44
  a much better use of
• 1:59:47
  resources yeah and
• 1:59:49
  um
• 1:59:51
  Those
• 1:59:52
  Yeah, that's I think i'm gonna stop there
• 1:59:55
  because I can ramble
• 1:59:58
  I just I have a lot to say in this
• 2:00:00
  context. I love it. I think it's
• 2:00:03
  uh, I think that could be a good start
• 2:00:05
  and I also know that you know looking at
• 2:00:08
  at least where Europe or
• 2:00:10
  The us is now it's
• 2:00:11
  maybe not a very popular
• 2:00:14
  opinion to
• 2:00:16
  promote state responsibility and
• 2:00:18
  environmental management because we don't
• 2:00:20
  really seem to have the politicians in
• 2:00:22
  place that are going to
• 2:00:23
  step up to do that but
• 2:00:24
  Let's not I mean
• 2:00:27
  Most cases it's a term of four years
• 2:00:30
  Let's not focus on the short-term goals.
• 2:00:32
  Let's focus on the
• 2:00:33
  long-term goals and exactly
• 2:00:35
  The world's a big place. There's a lot of
• 2:00:37
  governments that are still trying every
• 2:00:39
  day to do better and
• 2:00:40
  Yeah, it's like we said
• 2:00:42
  before this is not a fisheries
• 2:00:44
  Yeah, and let me say first not a
• 2:00:47
  Sorry, sorry. Go ahead. He's finished
• 2:00:50
  no worries, uh, no just work towards a
• 2:00:53
  more promising future of fisheries
• 2:00:55
  because i've seen in the past
• 2:00:58
  eight years a lot of talk but
• 2:01:00
  Except for those two treaties that I
• 2:01:02
  mentioned that need to be ratified by
• 2:01:04
  more states. I've seen
• 2:01:06
  little tangible results
• 2:01:08
  Yeah, no 100 and then
• 2:01:10
  obviously we need we need more
• 2:01:11
  Uh, I don't even think canada has
• 2:01:13
  ratified it yet. Uh, the high seas
• 2:01:15
  treaty. Anyway, uh,
• 2:01:16
  call your government today
• 2:01:17
  I I agree they're going out soon. So they
• 2:01:20
  want to vote provincially, but yeah, we
• 2:01:22
  got to talk friendly, too
• 2:01:23
  I completely agree
• 2:01:25
  Look, this is a you know, obviously
• 2:01:26
  fisheries is a complex issue.
• 2:01:28
  It's it's never easy to solve
• 2:01:29
  This is why it's been such a like a topic
• 2:01:32
  of conversation for a long time
• 2:01:33
  But I feel like you know understanding
• 2:01:36
  the laws that are around
• 2:01:37
  and what needs to be done
• 2:01:38
  Is really is really helpful.
• 2:01:40
  So I want to thank you so much
• 2:01:41
  Ava for coming on the podcast and being
• 2:01:43
  able to talk to us about this and again
• 2:01:45
  Can't wait to have
• 2:01:46
  you back on to talk more
• 2:01:47
  Yeah, very welcome. Thanks a lot
• 2:01:49
  Thank you Ava for joining us on today's
• 2:01:50
  episode of the how to
• 2:01:51
  protect the ocean podcast
• 2:01:52
  It was great to be able to have you on to
• 2:01:53
  discuss law and fisheries
• 2:01:55
  I just think that this is such a
• 2:01:56
  complicated issue and so complex
• 2:01:58
  It's nice to have somebody on the podcast
• 2:02:00
  to be able to help us get through all the
• 2:02:02
  layers of different laws and
• 2:02:04
  What we need to really
• 2:02:05
  focus on in the future
• 2:02:06
  I thought it was really interesting to
• 2:02:08
  see your perspectives on you know
• 2:02:10
  The law and what we need to do and take
• 2:02:12
  away some of these private mechanisms and
• 2:02:14
  manage more publicly and
• 2:02:15
  more through governance
• 2:02:17
  From the different states.
• 2:02:18
  I think that's really great
• 2:02:19
  Obviously collaboration is key,
• 2:02:20
  especially within the eu and other
• 2:02:22
  countries as well that have you know
• 2:02:24
  neighboring borders or
• 2:02:25
  the share the same border
• 2:02:26
  I feel like that's something that can
• 2:02:28
  always be improved upon no matter where
• 2:02:30
  you are in the world
• 2:02:32
  So sometimes you are neighbors with
• 2:02:34
  friends and sometimes you are not allies
• 2:02:36
  and sometimes you're allies
• 2:02:37
  You don't even realize that one person
• 2:02:38
  wants more than the other and this really
• 2:02:40
  can be complex just within that
• 2:02:42
  So it really is a focus on how to
• 2:02:45
  negotiate how to get along
• 2:02:47
  and how to manage fisheries
• 2:02:48
  Because fish don't see borders like we do
• 2:02:50
  and so they see
• 2:02:51
  borders from natural borders
• 2:02:52
  We see borders from political borders and
• 2:02:55
  that can be complex within itself
• 2:02:56
  So it's great to be able to have ava on
• 2:02:58
  and i'm going to put links
• 2:03:00
  to get to connect with ava
• 2:03:01
  And you find out more about her
• 2:03:03
  consultancy called natural justice and
• 2:03:05
  you can find her at
• 2:03:06
  natural justice dot n l
• 2:03:08
  dot natural justice dot
• 2:03:11
  And we'll put more links to her linkedin
• 2:03:13
  as well and to her newsletter.
• 2:03:15
  That's it for today's episode
• 2:03:16
  I want to thank ava again
• 2:03:18
  for coming on the podcast
• 2:03:19
  I want to thank you for listening to this
• 2:03:20
  podcast if you have any questions or
• 2:03:21
  comments about the episode
• 2:03:23
  Please feel free to dm me on instagram
• 2:03:25
  You can do so at how to protect the ocean
• 2:03:27
  That's at how to protect the ocean and if
• 2:03:29
  you are interested in learning more and
• 2:03:32
  want to know more about
• 2:03:32
  these videos that you're watching
• 2:03:33
  On youtube if you're watching this on
• 2:03:35
  youtube, you can subscribe
• 2:03:36
  and click that notification bell
• 2:03:37
  So you don't miss any of the episodes
• 2:03:38
  that we post monday wednesday and friday
• 2:03:41
  And also don't forget you
• 2:03:43
  can hit us up on spotify
• 2:03:45
  You can get us on your favorite podcast
• 2:03:46
  app like apple spotify
• 2:03:47
  amazon music and so forth
• 2:03:49
  We're on all of your favorite podcast
• 2:03:51
  apps. So feel free to join us there
• 2:03:53
  subscribe to that or follow depending on
• 2:03:54
  what they ask you to do
• 2:03:56
  So you don't miss any other episode, but
• 2:03:58
  that's it for today's episode of the how
• 2:03:59
  to protect the ocean podcast
• 2:04:00
  I'm your host. Andrew lewin from the true
• 2:04:01
  north strong and free. Enjoy your day.
• 2:04:03
  Have a great one and happy conservation