Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Strictly Come Hamster - Season Five (featuring Dylan Rees, Michael Mills & Elliot Mair)

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Strictly Come Hamster - Season Five (featuring Dylan Rees, Michael Mills & Elliot Mair) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:00
Oh, there you are, Doctor. You do look in a state.
0:04
Come and sit down. Told you wouldn't be long.
0:06
You. You worry too much.
0:08
We shouldn't have left him. You see, after the explosion,
0:10
Doctor, we didn't know what to do.
0:11
You said to come back here, which we did, but I'm sure we
0:13
were followed. Please, can we start straight
0:16
away? Me, Doctor.
0:28
But you said we would never touch the controls.
0:31
Quite right, Jamie. Welcome to the TARDIS.
0:35
Thank you. You're doing so well
0:38
impersonating me. I thought I might return the
0:41
compliment. And Giles Kent unfortunately
0:46
didn't survive the explosion. We're going to put you outside.
0:49
Salamander. No friends, no safety, nothing.
0:54
You'll run, but they'll catch up with you.
0:58
No, and now I'm going to kill you.
1:04
No, you don't. Welcome back to Strictly Come
1:55
Hamster. I bring the Strictly, someone
1:58
else brings the hamster, and Joe Ford brings the come.
2:01
So today we're getting our trout on.
2:05
Oh, well. Done.
2:07
Yeah. And we're talking about Series
2:09
5, Patrick Trouten's second series, once a missing classic,
2:14
now existing in many forms. But will there be clangers,
2:18
bangers, average meanders? Who knows this?
2:21
Is not too hot for TV. What are you doing?
2:24
Indeed. Well, you can hear there piping
2:26
up in the background, your regular host, Joe Ford, Say
2:30
hello, Joe Ford. You don't need me to cover this
2:32
season and come. It's everywhere this season.
2:35
There's foam everywhere, isn't there?
2:37
Coming out of Cybermen, out of impeller shafts, everywhere you
2:41
look. It's very coming.
2:43
It is very coming. And Speaking of very coming,
2:46
we've also got Michael Mills. Under objection Hello.
2:53
We're kicking things off here, you know, in true hamster.
2:57
Style. Style, yeah.
2:58
And we've got a new hamster guest.
3:01
We've got Elliot. Elliot, who are you?
3:03
What are you doing here? Hello.
3:05
I'm here against my will. But he's not covered in
3:10
anything. All right, I.
3:11
Promise. Not yet.
3:16
Hi. Yeah, I'm, I'm Elliot.
3:17
Thank you for having me on. I am one side of the Come Along
3:21
Pon podcast and I like Doctor Who somewhat.
3:25
I mean, you've managed to put another come in this episode
3:27
then. Well done.
3:29
Oh yeah, the Come Along Pon podcast.
3:30
Yeah. Right, no more come.
3:33
OK, I promise. Can I ask a question, please,
3:35
about a Come Along Pon podcast? Yeah.
3:38
Is are you enormous fans of the Steven Moffat era?
3:40
Is that why you went for that title?
3:43
We, we were looking for very succinct, very Yeah.
3:49
Tells you it's about Doctor Who, isn't?
3:50
It hard. Isn't just the most generic
3:52
thing you've ever heard and we had loads of names floating
3:56
around, but it was actually my Co host's idea and it just rolls
4:00
off the tongue really well. So come along POM podcast that
4:02
is, you know, although there is a, there is a, a war between me
4:08
and my cohorts and some of our listeners that it should have
4:10
been come along podcast because that was my idea.
4:12
And we still get emails this day saying it should have been
4:15
podcast. So you know.
4:18
I mean, I can imagine if I started writing Come Along in a
4:21
podcast Catcher, there aren't going to be too many podcasts
4:24
jumping out at me. No, yeah, we do.
4:27
And we do our research, you know, make sure we weren't ready
4:29
to go on anyone's toes. Well, that's where your search
4:31
history becomes your enemy. Joan I.
4:34
See that? Dirty for coming, yes, Yeah.
4:37
Yeah, you've got. To talk about season 5, please.
4:41
So Elliot, since you're new here, why don't you tell us your
4:43
sort of general feelings of Season 5?
4:48
Yeah, absolutely. I haven't seen season 5 for
4:51
quite a while. I I came to the show and I'll
4:55
whisper it, I came to the show with no who?
4:59
I'm a yeah, I know. I'm I'm although mind you,
5:02
though, it's now with the second reboot and we're on to the third
5:04
one. So I don't feel quite so, so
5:06
young now. Can I ask you, Elliot, how old
5:08
you are? Yeah, I'm 27.
5:12
Oh, Luke Malloy is no longer the time twink of a hamster with a
5:15
blood pen knife. Elliot is now.
5:19
So I, yeah, I grew up loving you.
5:21
Who? And I kind of dropped off around
5:23
Season 6 and I always enjoyed the show.
5:26
Around lockdown I really got back into it, caught up with the
5:30
new show and I thought, I've never really seen classic Kub,
5:33
but it seems like something I'd like.
5:34
And I just went through a crazy sort of year long period where I
5:38
just watched random stories. A lot of that stuff was Patrick
5:41
Trought and stuff. But now to be honest, I've seen
5:46
everything. All the, you know, I've seen all
5:48
the Telestat reconstructions, all the animations.
5:50
I've come out hands on, read a few of the Target books and the
5:53
First Doctor is very much my kind of thing.
5:56
That's my little niche of Doctor Who that I enjoy.
5:58
And yeah, I did not maybe enjoy returning Season 5 as much as I
6:04
remembered liking it when I first watched it.
6:08
I think I like the the boundless optimism of of especially the
6:13
William Hartnell stuff. Where that studio is, whatever
6:17
weird landscape they want it to be, any planet, any city.
6:21
And then watching this, oh, every, every time they rocked up
6:25
in a fucking base, I was like, can we just, there were moments
6:28
when they get out of those bases and I feel alive.
6:30
It's amazing. It just feels so claustrophobic
6:33
and repetitive. Not that there's not good stuff
6:35
here, there is really good stuff here, but I think not my jam
6:39
personally. Can I ask a favour please, since
6:42
you are the guest here today, right, the new guest, can you
6:45
please choose any sound effects that's very memorable from
6:49
season 5? Every single time somebody says
6:52
bass, bass under siege or bust today I'm going to pipe it in.
6:56
What sound effect would you like?
7:00
I I like I like I like a weird like ice warrior hiss kind of
7:06
just I mean, it's just I don't know why it's the one that jumps
7:12
out to me is them trying to have conversations and just
7:14
continually kind of go. I mean, it ain't going to be
7:16
hard to find that. And they're hissing their way
7:18
for that entire bloody story. So, OK, right, Every time I hear
7:21
it from you chaps, OK, you're going to hear a hiss.
7:23
People are going to wonder what the Hell's going on, but here we
7:26
are. Excellent.
7:27
Joe Ford, what about you? How do you feel about this
7:30
season or series? I do think it's the weakest
7:33
trout in the season, but I think it's probably the best made
7:38
trout and sequence. And I think it might be the most
7:40
confident trout and sequence that season as well.
7:43
But it's just that overly familiar genre of base under
7:48
siege, which by the time I got to a wheel in Space, I was
7:51
going, oh, please, enough already, you know, can I just go
7:55
anywhere else but a base with an intransigent, angry manager in
7:59
charge? Because that's where I go all
8:00
day at work. I don't want to be there when
8:03
I'm watching Doctor Who. But one massive, huge plus for
8:09
Season 5 is there is a plethora of great female characters this
8:14
season, and it's rare in the 60s and it's rare in the 70s.
8:18
I mean, I've just written down a few Kaftan, I'll fight you if
8:21
you say she's not great. Miss Clint, Faria, Astrid and
8:25
Travers, Miss Jones, Maggie Harris, Zoe, Tanya, Gemma,
8:28
Corwin. It's just one brilliant female
8:31
character after another. So I think it's consistent.
8:34
It is very entertaining. I would probably put every
8:37
single story through if they were half the length and only
8:41
about half the stories can go through because they're all over
8:45
long. But at it's extended length, you
8:48
know you can justify just because they're really great.
8:50
Yeah, some great representation there for females, not so much
8:53
foreign people or black people or anything like that, but I'm
8:55
sure, I'm sure where. Are the gays?
8:57
Where are the gays? Oh, Benic from Enemy of the
9:00
World. Yeah, of course.
9:01
Yeah. And the two Penley and Penley
9:04
and his mate. Oh yeah, absolutely.
9:08
Penley, Penley and Clint surely will get there.
9:12
Well, we will. We will.
9:14
Michael Mills, Trout and seconds here at season.
9:17
How is it for you? Well, I mean, I'm slightly older
9:21
than Elliot, so when I was getting into Doctor Who in the
9:24
wilderness years or around the turn of the Millennium, season 5
9:27
was one of the one of the seasons that got talked about a
9:31
lot as a whole for some reason. I think that's partly the base
9:36
under siege easy label to apply to IT.
9:38
People used to like to say the season of the monsters as well.
9:42
I think we only had one complete story from it at that point as
9:47
well. Tomb of the Side Men was the
9:49
only one that was extant, so I think there was a degree of
9:52
mystique. Not only just showing up.
9:55
Yeah, not long before. I mean, I think it was I I had
9:58
the I got the DVD of it when it came out and it was one of the
10:01
quite early releases, possibly the first tractor one at all.
10:06
And it's also the time of the soundtrack releases were all
10:09
help were all happening. And we had the Teddy snaps photo
10:13
novellas on on the BBCI website as well.
10:16
So there's quite a lot of fan love for it and you know,
10:21
revisiting, I'd agree with a lot of what a lot of what Joe said
10:25
around it's confidence, great representation for for for women
10:29
so much on Kaftan. But but at the same time, it was
10:35
it was interesting. I think it, there's, it's, it's
10:38
much more, I mean, in some ways that we'll get onto it already
10:42
touched on, it's quite retrograde, but there's also
10:44
ways in which it was surprisingly sophisticated,
10:48
especially all the, a lot of the production in the surviving bits
10:50
we have, you know, there's some great use of film sequences and
10:53
quite extended use as well. And, you know, we don't have
10:56
that thing that so often have in 1960s Doctor Who of studio,
11:01
studio, studio. Well, now I'm going outside.
11:04
And then we get a more interestingly shot bit for about
11:07
5 minutes and then we get back in.
11:08
Then we arrive at the other studio sets.
11:10
So yeah, it was really interesting that I, I think
11:12
we'll get into it. I think some of the ones that I
11:13
had remembered as being really good, I was surprised that they
11:19
didn't necessarily hold up in the same ways.
11:20
And equally, there were other stories that I've had quite a
11:23
low opinion or for quite some time, but revisiting them was
11:26
actually quietly impressed. Yeah, messing up.
11:31
Sorry, go on, Jack. Well, no, I was just gonna say
11:32
that is really interesting what you just said there.
11:33
And I do agree. I think when you go into the 70s
11:36
in colour, that mixture of studio to film is really
11:40
jarring. But for some reason in the 60s,
11:43
that black and white, whatever they're using, I just, I don't,
11:47
I can't really tell the difference.
11:48
I feel as if the stuff in studio kind of looks a bit filmic as
11:52
well. Maybe it's just how it's lit.
11:54
Yeah, it's, I think it is just that thing of, of, of black and
12:00
white, right? That you, that you can hide the
12:02
strings a bit better. You can hide the joints because
12:04
there's some bits we're going to in, in the Ice Warriors
12:06
especially, there's a heck of a lot of stock footage in there.
12:09
But that's much less drunk. You know it's not blowing up
12:11
Iron Grand Castle where we all turn around and watch a a a bit
12:15
of mind blasting footage for a couple of seconds.
12:17
The only trouble with the stock footage is you get all the sort
12:19
of popping on the film. You can tell it's sort of old
12:21
film that's been put in, but I I get the point.
12:25
I love a bit of popping film and also the studio side of stuff.
12:30
It isn't, you know, Galaxy 4 where it just looks like a
12:34
rubbish studio. I'm pretty much the same as you,
12:37
Michael. I grew up in the wilderness
12:39
years and everybody told me how great this was.
12:43
And then when it slowly started to be discovered, sort of in
12:46
isolation, I think they all feel quite great.
12:49
But when you look at them as a whole, it feels a little, I
12:52
mean, I think it's a complete failure on the part of a script
12:54
editor to Commission a bunch of stories with these same things.
12:58
Like it's a really poor show in in that respect.
13:01
And I think on that level, I think it's probably the worst
13:04
script edited season of Doctor Who that there is.
13:08
It just shouldn't have happened. But within there, there are some
13:11
gems. And yeah, I've had some
13:13
reappraisals in both directions. I think Troughton and Hines are
13:18
absolutely fantastic in every story and you know, some great
13:22
guest cast, some great designs, some great directors.
13:26
Like there's a lot to enjoy here, but I don't think I don't
13:30
think it it's initial classic status is deserved.
13:35
Dylan, it's almost a relief, isn't it?
13:37
When we land on dolkies and there's no fucking base.
13:40
Oh, sorry, I'll pipe into his. Should we go with some comments?
13:47
The overview comments from the Ham fam.
13:49
Let's do it. So Paul Quinn says it has one of
13:53
the worst, the worst concentration of racist and
13:57
religious stereotypes in Doctor Who sub-saharan, Africans,
14:00
Arabs, Jews, the Welsh, Mexicans with some fun in the make up
14:05
box. But then comes along Carmen
14:07
Monroe with an amazing performance.
14:09
Whittaker can write a multi ethnic cast the foreigners slash
14:13
religious others as villains. Wrong and funny.
14:15
It's presumably partly as a result of Doctor Who looking to
14:18
ITC for models of types of story.
14:22
It's the weakest trance three seasons.
14:24
There's some great stuff here. The top stories are Enemy, Web,
14:27
Fury and Wheel and Space, but it lacks a variety of season 4 and
14:32
the desperate invention of season 6.
14:33
Slick, well made, but repetitive and occasionally dull.
14:38
Elia, I am so sorry that you had to start there on a Paul Green
14:41
comment about ethnicity, but well done.
14:45
It's OK, I was just trying not to laugh at Welsh in the middle
14:48
of there. Not that I'm saying that
14:49
representation is good, it just seems quite, you know, it's just
14:51
quite funny. Plus in the middle of that.
14:53
John J Johnson says an extraordinary season, which I
14:56
vividly recall with excitement. The serials were terrifying and
14:59
thrilling and equal measure. Even Trout and Salamander in a
15:03
serial sadly lacking monsters is unsettlingly riveting.
15:07
Two Radio Times covers Doctor Who seemed to be everywhere and
15:11
it was marvellous. Jason Thompson says they found a
15:14
formula that worked and ran with it with varying degrees of
15:18
success. What I find weird about this
15:20
season is that at its best the stories are brilliantly produced
15:22
but full of holes, while the more original stories are a
15:26
chore to get through. Victoria's either brilliant or
15:28
terrible with no middle ground and Hinds and Trout on a superb
15:31
together. Some absolutely stunning set
15:33
pieces though. Side men emerging from their
15:35
tomb, Yeti attacking Covent Garden Oak and quill gassing
15:39
Maggie Harris. Not the best season, but one of
15:41
the most enduring. That is such a great point that
15:44
no one said in their overviews then that set piece wise, this
15:48
story just knocks out one great set piece after another and I'm
15:51
sure we'll talk about them. You know, you can absolutely
15:53
hear Jason Thompson saying those words, can't you?
15:55
He writes how he talks. Well, Cyhart says the monster
16:01
era, no, the samey era. The base commanders get more
16:06
unhinged. The stories tend to drag a bit.
16:08
For me, Web of Fear is the peak due to the incredible atmosphere
16:11
throughout. Heinz and Triton are terrific
16:13
throughout. Somehow after somehow after a
16:15
strong start, Watling gets disappointing material.
16:19
I'm not sure it's just Watling. I'm not sure it's just the
16:22
material. I think the actress has got
16:24
something to do with that. Dan Hollingsworth says monsters,
16:29
monsters, monsters. Bases under siege, but in a way
16:34
that mostly doesn't get too repetitive.
16:36
Season 4's Electric Adventures in format findings settled into
16:39
this classic season. Trouten and Hinds are a dream
16:42
team and Watling does OK with a tiresome character.
16:46
More love for Watlin here than I was expecting.
16:48
Mad. Men early days, yeah.
16:52
Andrew says love this. Season 2 of the Cybermen is one
16:55
of my favourites of all time. I remember watching the VHS and
16:58
really feeling the claustrophobic nature of the
17:01
tombs. 50 lbs Pounds. Luke Sims, Jenkins simply says.
17:06
What do I think of season 5? Fuck you moon base.
17:09
That's what a season to dip in and out of.
17:14
All the moon bases fault. I mean, is it not surely 10th
17:18
planets? Oh yeah, yeah.
17:19
What's the first one based on the speech?
17:22
I'm not going to lie to you, most, most of the episodes, most
17:26
of the stories from this season feel like watching the first or
17:28
three episodes of the censor, right?
17:29
So that's where I'm going to lay the blade.
17:33
Not quite a lot of the first couple of episodes of The Censor
17:35
Eyes. Kieran Evans famed but we do get
17:38
stuck with six part stories about bases and their commanders
17:41
not trusting the doctor. That's true, Daniel Knight says
17:44
the so-called monster season. Apart from the fact we only have
17:47
three monsters, some seaweed and a doctor doppelganger with a
17:50
dodgy Mexican accent. Trouten and Heinz are great, but
17:53
what lings Victoria sometimes greats.
17:56
The formula works well, but some of the stories of four parters
17:58
stretch to six. He manages to put two spellings
18:01
of great in the same sentence There.
18:03
Did you say? What a guy?
18:05
What is wrong with that accent? I mean, I'm going to take you
18:07
all to task if you come after that Mexican accent.
18:10
Sure it is Mexican. I like Trouten, shows up in an
18:14
episode of Doom Watch where he's playing a Spanish person and
18:17
does the same Mexican accent. You try, you fail.
18:19
Someone doesn't fall out of the sky.
18:24
I say that I work all the time, just not in that accent because.
18:26
We may be being racist right now, you know.
18:29
Being racist. I'm impersonating Patrick
18:30
Trouten. Oh, well done.
18:32
Where were we? Sorry.
18:34
Jay Schallery back in the 80s when like 3 of Victoria's
18:38
episodes survived, Season 5 was held up as the pinnacle of 60s
18:41
who full of monsters monsters, monsters.
18:45
Nowadays we can see the seasons repetitive formula of bases
18:48
under siege whose leaders crack under the strain, and Victoria
18:54
is often much more annoying than Mel ever was.
18:58
Drive by on Mel there he. Was hissing in their ears for
19:01
four hours. We were going to think they've
19:02
got a gas leak or something. Aren't.
19:03
They Would you like me to stop hissing?
19:05
It might go through, no? It's fine.
19:06
I mean, I'm going to pump in a hiss over it as well, so.
19:09
Pumping in a hiss, no fault. I had to pump out a hiss
19:15
earlier. Really.
19:16
Tell us more. Sorry, that's that's I've fried
19:22
myself off there. That's what it is.
19:25
You're in the right place for that sort of comment, don't
19:27
worry. Dave Flint says, takes a
19:29
successful and exciting formula for a Who story and proceeds to
19:32
kick the shit out of it across 40 weeks.
19:35
Some strong stories weather fear, living up to expectation
19:38
upon its return. But even what should be a
19:40
classic like Fury feels like a drag if watching the season in
19:43
order. The Simon 90 I do enjoy this
19:46
season and it has my favorite trout and story to the enemy of
19:49
the world. And David Gillespie, Pratt says.
19:53
Is it formulaic? Yes.
19:55
Can it be repetitive? Yes.
19:57
Are some stories stretched out? Yes.
19:58
Do I rate this as one of my favorite seasons?
20:01
Yes. David.
20:04
DGP there with you know. He's not afraid to call a bit of
20:09
controversy. Indeed.
20:11
Well, does anybody here class this as their favorite
20:14
Cheltenham? No 6, I mean, I grew up with
20:18
six. I grew up with Wendy Padbury.
20:19
Yeah. Six and six, Four and six.
20:22
And, and four used to be held up similarly as just being, you
20:26
know, observable tosh. But there is that.
20:29
There's that madness and that invention and, you know, got the
20:32
underwater menace in it. That's got the underwater menace
20:35
in it exactly. This this season is crying out
20:38
for a bit of underwater menace, and that's not something you
20:40
would have said in. 19 or Dominators or space pirates, you
20:43
know, throwing a bit camp. So should we pick our first
20:47
story? Are we all ready for this?
20:49
Who do you want to give it to? Well, I.
20:51
Think Elliot should go first as the newbie, I'm just throwing it
20:55
all to Elliot tonight. Sorry, Elliot can.
20:57
I just say right, every Co host has come on since Rod departed,
21:01
has thrown out for the poor new guest straight off the bat.
21:05
Poor Elliot. Come on, dazzlers, what have you
21:07
got? Let me let me have a thing.
21:11
I want to go positive for my first one because it seems it
21:15
seems reductive to just attack straight away.
21:19
So I I think picking up on something you said in the notes,
21:22
I am going to go to bat for the enemy of the world.
21:26
Ray. Which I think might be my
21:30
favorite story of this season. I this is only my second time
21:35
watching it. And I mean, first of all, it's
21:37
obviously it's nice to be able to watch something that exists
21:39
in its entirety. And of course, I've only known a
21:43
world where it exists. Lucky me, but I don't.
21:47
Know what it was like? You weren't there, man.
21:50
I understand the sort of, you know, received fan wisdom that
21:53
episode 3 was shit and the audio was really boring and everyone
21:57
was kind of wild when it came back.
21:58
But so I kind of actually went into it with really high
22:01
expectations because of how people talked about how
22:03
surprised they were. And I just, I think it's
22:07
fantastic. I think it's the only six part
22:09
of that I don't think feels particularly stretched out.
22:12
I'm amazed how constantly that feels like the story happening
22:15
and how intelligent the writing seems.
22:18
I again, I've seen this before. I was genuinely caught off guard
22:23
by Jamie's gambit to pretend to rescue Salamander by throwing
22:28
the the radio isn't over the balcony and it being detonated.
22:34
That's brilliant. It feels like something out of a
22:36
sort of called kind of James Bond novel there.
22:40
Ask you the first time you saw this.
22:42
Yeah. Did you, Did you sort of guess,
22:44
watching episodes one to three, that you were going to head
22:46
underground in episode 4 and that the volcanoes were going to
22:50
be made by a load of people living undergrounds?
22:53
It was complete. I thought it was just, yeah,
22:55
going to be this guy. Honestly, I thought just going
22:57
into it that it was just a sort of standard you kind of
22:59
doppelganger story. And it is completely, it goes
23:04
completely bonkers in a really good way.
23:07
And I think the the Patrick Trout of it all, I think is what
23:11
saves it. I mean, that Mexican accent is
23:13
incredibly outrageous in both a both a good way and a bad way.
23:18
There are times where it incredibly works to the
23:20
character. It feels really menacing at
23:21
times where it feels borderline quite, you know, just quite
23:24
offensive. But his physicality is the
23:27
character, the costume, the way he delivers his dialogue is is
23:32
impeccable. And I think the for for me, even
23:36
though it's right towards the end, so it sounds like it's way
23:38
to have as a stand out. I think that that shot, the
23:41
close up of the Doctor and Salamander looking at each other
23:43
and the TARDIS at the end is impressive and difficult to do
23:47
now with modern technology, because I know I've done similar
23:50
things. It is very difficult and finicky
23:52
to do as you're doing that at 60s tech with a shot that I
23:56
don't think looks out of place at all.
23:57
There is nothing about it where, and I don't know if it's because
24:00
of how quickly it comes up and then goes, but not a second of
24:02
it looks odd. And I think that's amazing
24:06
considering you've got, yeah, fake Cardinal win the chase.
24:09
And I mean, if this was John Perky stuff, that would just be
24:11
CSO, it would look absolutely awful.
24:14
It's it's great. So no, I think I think this is
24:18
really impressive. And I think it's all down to
24:20
Patrick Troughton, really. So the risk of just waffling on,
24:24
I think I'm going to sort of maybe open it up to the floor a
24:27
little bit and then go back to my my notes.
24:30
You know, you know the end of it where Salamander gets sucked out
24:33
into space. Yeah.
24:35
Think of how many annoying companions.
24:36
So the doctor knows now, right? If I just pull that lever, the
24:39
person could, he could have Adric, you know, male, any of
24:42
them. Sorry, not male, Dylan.
24:44
Any of them could have been sucked out into space.
24:46
I I just love that ending. And that's terrifying as well.
24:50
I think people talk about, especially some of the new
24:52
stuff, about how angry you know, Christopher Eccleston can get.
24:57
Everyone loves the moment from Yeah, Family of Blood and
25:00
whatever the the other episode is called where David Tennant
25:04
wraps them in chains and hides them in mirrors, you know, and
25:08
but like the dog, he just, he flips the switch and condemns a
25:11
man to fall through sort of the eternal vacuum of space until he
25:15
does. Sounds a cunt though.
25:16
Let's he is a total cunt. You say that, but there is a
25:20
comic book that follows this up and actually he lands in 1970s
25:24
England and pretends to be the second Doctor and goes to meet.
25:27
The Are you for real? Yes.
25:29
You can find it covered on an episode of my podcast with
25:33
Richie Morgan. It's a strangely compelling
25:36
comic. Hang on, he survived the vacuum
25:38
of space. Yes, it landed on the earth.
25:41
I think Kronos helped him out or something like.
25:43
That Wow. Of course he did.
25:44
Yeah, coming soon from Big Finish.
25:47
Gets caught. He gets caught in the wake of
25:50
the TARDIS and materialises in London during the Web of Fear.
25:54
Yeah, that's the thing. And then he carries on a bit.
25:56
I, I, I don't know. I just thought that was.
25:58
Script editor Michael Mills there.
26:00
There we go, covering. He does the details so we don't
26:03
have to. Should we hear what our
26:07
listeners have to say about it? Should I kick us off?
26:10
Kick us off, mate. Mate, how?
26:13
Much, buddy. Jason Thompson.
26:16
You know, it's like bitch, Jason Thompson says dismissed as the
26:20
boring one until it came back and we could see what a gem it
26:23
actually was. Some great direction Jamie and
26:25
Victoria foregrounded for a while and given stuff to do, and
26:28
a great mid story twist when the underground shelter is revealed.
26:32
Victoria is great. Victoria is great in this,
26:36
apparently. Her righteous anger when she
26:38
thinks she's giving Salamander a piece of her mind is wonderful.
26:41
Donald Bruce goes from nemesis to ally wonderfully.
26:44
He likes the word wonderful, doesn't he?
26:46
Almost as much as me. And Faria's death scene is
26:48
horrific, thanks to Milton Johnson's Bennik.
26:51
The cliffhangers are mostly awful, but keep.
26:55
Edward Cookery says a particular highlight for me is the enemy of
26:58
the world as it dares to be different in a season of base
27:02
under siege stories. A very enjoyable a very
27:06
enjoyable season with a great rapport between the regulars.
27:10
James had been Bennett. Gloriously silly.
27:13
It's Doctor Who meets James Bond.
27:15
Everybody's playing it for what it's worth, and I don't mind
27:18
that it it doesn't have any relation to established
27:20
continuity before or since. It's a parallel Earth or
27:23
something. Keep.
27:25
All done. We all thought it was shit from
27:27
just episode 3 but now it's complete.
27:30
It's wonderful. Great direction from Barry,
27:32
let's lovely performances from Mary Peach, Milton Johns and the
27:36
ensemble. Troughton clearly cherishes
27:38
having a dual role. I think this is quite popular.
27:41
You know Luke Sims Jenkins. The best story of the season,
27:44
Amazing characters, intrigue and great twist.
27:47
Thank fuck it was found. Keep it and treasure it.
27:50
I loved Rocket Travel back in 2018.
27:54
Paul Cresser says what a revelation the discovery was,
27:57
elevating it instantly to one of my favorite Troutons, Doctor
28:00
Who. Just Doctor Who doesn't just do
28:04
James Bond, it does it with style and trout and excels in
28:08
the dual roles. Michael Storm.
28:10
Almost, almost the highlight of the season.
28:13
The story of political intrigue, wannabe dictators and location
28:17
trotting is a welcome change of pace.
28:19
We have a good guest cast with the female characters, a truly
28:22
nasty piece of work in Bennick. And of course, Oh yes, Griffin
28:26
the chef pillow spots. Yeah.
28:28
Now I'm going out for a walk. It'll probably rain I.
28:33
Love it. My mother was right.
28:37
She wanted me to be a dustman. Here in Evans, a much needed
28:42
break from the BUS format and what a break Trout and delivers
28:48
a cracking performance in both roles.
28:49
Jamie and Victoria get decent parts and the guest roles flesh
28:53
out the story immensely. Dan Hollingsworth, the Enemy of
28:57
the World, is my favorite since it came back into the archive.
28:59
Strong supporting cast of characters, lots of adventuring,
29:03
a Ruddy helicopter and trout, and chewing the scenery as the
29:06
Doctor's doppelganger. Daniel Knight says Enemy is
29:09
superb, probably the best of the season in terms of script and
29:11
characterization with some superb performances, especially
29:15
Trout and Bilker and Carmen Monroe.
29:17
Episode 1 is a masterpiece of action and injury.
29:20
Episode 3 isn't bad in context of the rest of the story and
29:23
Griffin the chef is. Oh yes, and the last comment
29:27
here, are we going to have a full house for Enemy of the
29:29
World? Jay Shawry says when Enemy and
29:33
Webb returned in 2013, we all knew Webb would be awesome.
29:37
Did we? But we all knew Enemy would be
29:39
too. I was.
29:40
Did we all know Enemy would be too?
29:42
Sorry. After all, we only had the
29:43
disjointed and abysmal What Part 3 to go on.
29:47
It's a shame Barry Let's Die before Enemy came back because
29:50
he would have loved its reassessment by Phantom.
29:53
However, the hasty resolution leaves so much to be desired,
29:56
especially since it's a short running episode.
30:00
Yeah, well, I mean, it's not like there's any hasty
30:02
resolutions in the rest of the season, fortunately.
30:04
So, Michael Mills, come on, tell us, do you love it?
30:09
Do you hate it? Have you got some clever reason
30:11
why you hate it? I was invited on this podcast
30:18
for, like, clever reasons. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm about to
30:22
launch into saying, not to suggest that I'm sort of some
30:25
visionary who who foresaw the greatness that that awaited us
30:29
in the future, but I'm going to very strongly imply it, which is
30:32
that when these two episodes were stories were rediscovered,
30:34
I think I was the only person on the Internet who was more more
30:37
excited about Enemy of the World.
30:39
Apparently Joe was as well. I had a review up on docoho
30:42
reviews all right five years before this came out, with 9 out
30:45
of 10 against it. I.
30:47
Didn't realise we were bringing receipts, but but I, I think, I
30:51
think the reason I, I always had a soft spot for it was because
30:54
AI do love, you know, people said James Bond a lot and that
30:57
was definitely what was driving a lot of this.
30:58
But it's also Doctor Who doing the, the broader sort of cheesy
31:02
60s spy fi. That was it's absolute height in
31:05
1968 people. Someone mentioned ITC at the
31:07
very start and you know, villains, volcano layers, rocket
31:11
travel, you know, oh, love it. Love it when Doctor Who dresses
31:14
up for a bit. You'd imagine you wouldn't have
31:16
the budget for it though, wouldn't you?
31:18
I mean, OK, so this is going to be my other points, right?
31:21
So really, really well put together and, and directed and
31:27
produced this some of the incredible use of we mentioned
31:31
it earlier, but incredible use of film to add a sense of, of,
31:35
of place and context and sets. You think about the first
31:37
episode where, you know, got all the location footage on the
31:39
beach and then we go into the bungalow.
31:42
So you've still got this sense of of you're still in that
31:44
location footage within this bungalow And then later on,
31:46
similarly with the block of flats and frankly, 1 of
31:51
astonishing mix of of model and film shot with the Salamander's
31:56
lift, that shot of it coming of, you know, whizzing sequels of it
32:00
whizzing, whizzing, whizzing, whizzing.
32:01
And then that slam cut from the model into the film.
32:04
Is that again, Elliot's already mentioned the final shot.
32:08
But just think where is the join in that?
32:10
I can't see it even now. That's, that's, that's
32:13
absolutely brilliant. I think.
32:15
I, I, I, I agree that that that ending of, of a Salamander is,
32:21
is horrific. And it's the sort of stuff that
32:22
is, if I'd seen it as a little kid would have scared the hell
32:25
out of me, even probably more than the monsters.
32:27
Just the sort of kind of, you know, existential horror of
32:30
someone falling into a bottomless pit into the title
32:33
sequence of Doctor Who forever. That's really nasty.
32:37
And I, I love a bit of idiosyncratic Doctor Who as
32:39
well, which this definitely is. Actually, I think it was Paul
32:42
Cornell who made the point when it came back, who later wrote
32:44
the the Mad comic book follow up, which as he said, because
32:48
it's trying to depict an actual sort of future historical state
32:52
and then place the Doctor within it.
32:53
It's actually one of Doctor Who's strongest swings at doing
32:58
actual hard sci-fi at any point in its entire run it.
33:01
Does feel like a historical, doesn't it?
33:03
It does it really. Does.
33:06
And not just because the doppelganger.
33:08
And finally, I just love it because I'm, I'm, you know, I'm,
33:11
I'm, I have my clever reasons and my facts.
33:14
So I'm obviously a big fan of, I'm a big fan of Lance Parkin
33:17
and Lance Pearson's A History and Oh my.
33:19
God, is it Mary Peach's arse? How would I get from?
33:24
How would I get? From I thought you were going to
33:26
say, yeah, I've done my clever readings, now I'm going to say
33:28
something facetious. I'm not going to follow up on,
33:32
you know, the the very well made point about female
33:36
representation in this. Season.
33:38
Because she's got a beautiful page, that page, don't you?
33:42
Returning to Lance Parking last Pearson's history of the
33:46
universe. I absolutely just I love the I
33:48
love the big, big fan of Lance Parking and Lance Pearson's A
33:52
History of the Universe. And in the earlier editions,
33:55
they really what they had went to town with the footnotes
33:57
trying to work out when the enemy of the world could
33:59
possibly possibly be set. And then you they got recovered.
34:03
There's a shot where they both turn and look at a sign that
34:06
says it's 2018. How many years did they get?
34:10
Were they out? I think possibly fifty.
34:13
I have to go and check. I've got a feeling like I heard
34:15
like 2068 discussed as like, incredible, yeah.
34:19
I love that who knows what we're missing and all all the other
34:22
stories the massacres actually set in the future.
34:25
I like to imagine that there's there's like an extra character
34:28
in the Space Pirates that who's in every scene but just doesn't
34:30
have a line. Space Pirates is a western, what
34:33
are you talking about? Didn't.
34:34
Manage to land in any of the telly snaps.
34:37
Silent, Jeff. So you're putting it through,
34:41
Michael? Oh, reservations about the
34:46
accents established otherwise. What's?
34:48
Your issue with the accent. I think, I think it is, I think
34:54
it is very, I think it is a, he's playing a character.
34:57
It's the script. Thing is, it's not just the
34:58
accent, it's also the entire construction of that character
35:00
is something of a caricature, right?
35:02
And I don't think that performance is something
35:06
necessary that would be acceptable now.
35:08
It's, it's very much of its era. Like Doctor Who is not alone in
35:11
having characters like that. He is blacked up, isn't he like
35:15
that? Yeah, which is?
35:16
He does have a huge to his face. So, you know, and I think, I
35:19
think as Doctor Who fans, we can't ignore stuff like that.
35:21
You know, there are episodes like people, you know, obviously
35:23
big debates about things like talents of Wing Chiang where
35:25
it's very, you know, the racism is very, very overt.
35:28
But we also need to acknowledge where elements of this show have
35:31
aged in in other ways as well. And there's going to be other
35:34
opportunities. Quite over in this season as
35:36
well. And yet some reason, because
35:38
this is the classic Monster era, people seem to be able to ride
35:41
over it somehow. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
35:45
And, you know, I just think there's something that needs to
35:47
be borne in mind. But yes.
35:50
But that notwithstanding, I, I, I like this episode.
35:53
It's the underwater menace done better.
35:55
It is that bit of idiosyncrasy. It is that bit of, oh, what if
35:59
we did? What if Doctor Who was something
36:00
completely different for six weeks, you know?
36:02
Yeah, I like the end of the world, Joe.
36:04
Thought well everyone sort of said everything.
36:06
I was going to say already but what is wrong with episode 3
36:09
when episode 3 existed? Did everybody on this call hate
36:12
it? I didn't hate it, but it existed
36:14
on that tape of the trouching years.
36:17
And what? Else was on there.
36:18
Was it Evil 2? No, no, no.
36:21
It was Abominable Snowmen 2 and Space Pirates too.
36:24
So All in all, not a great run of episodes, to be honest.
36:27
And I think they're some of the dollar.
36:29
They're probably the dullest episodes of all of those.
36:31
The. Highlight they're dealing is
36:33
John Perry. Isn't it going?
36:34
Many British films, including The Wicked Lady, were made here.
36:38
Exactly. But it was a time capsule at the
36:41
time and you never thought you were going to see these things
36:42
all. So no, it didn't make me go, oh,
36:45
I really must watch The Enemy of the World or listen to the
36:48
soundtrack. But I still watched it 4000
36:51
times because I was 12 and I had 20 videos and that was one of
36:54
them. The trouble is, it's the
36:55
cheapie, isn't it, that episode? Yeah, after the sort of
36:59
expensive stuff at the beginning, there's expensive
37:00
stuff at the end. I mean, unusually, you have
37:03
location work in the last episode in this, and that's
37:05
very, very rare in Doctor Who. Yeah, I love this.
37:09
I love the bond of it. I love Barry Elect's direction
37:12
of this. And it's so sad he hasn't seen
37:14
the rear appraisal. That shot from the helicopter
37:17
coming up from the beach with the two men firing on it.
37:20
Is that the single best location shot ever in Doctor Who?
37:25
It's certainly one of the most stylish.
37:26
I think David Whitaker, I think he's hugely underrated still,
37:32
even though he's written a lot of classics and I'll have a
37:35
feeling we're going to say some mean things about him later on
37:37
in the season. But here he's he's right on with
37:40
it. And he does some brilliant
37:42
characters in It's Faria. Is that Carmen Monroe?
37:45
Sometimes we do what we have to do, not what we want to do.
37:49
I mean, there's a whole world in that line, isn't there?
37:51
And what an interesting relationship she has with
37:54
Salamander Bennik. The the sadist henchman had a
37:59
very enjoyable childhood in a very camp way, but he's properly
38:03
sinister. Astrid, who's a hugely proactive
38:07
Bond girl in this, the line I love from her is to me, you're
38:11
just about the most wonderful man, whoever fell out of the
38:14
sky. And then we get to see Trout and
38:16
flirting outrageously with her, doesn't he?
38:19
Quite a few times he does that these things.
38:20
And of course, Griff the chef feel those spots.
38:24
Yeah. Now what was it she's talking
38:27
about? That terrible old wash up of a
38:28
pudding that she. Kaiser pudding.
38:31
Orange peel, candy peel. And oh, it was lovely.
38:35
OK, just go over there. All right?
38:36
You're useless. We should make some Kaiser
38:39
pudding. We should have made some for
38:40
this, shouldn't we? We could have all sat around
38:42
eating our. Kaiser pudding.
38:43
It sounds hideous. Just give me some spots.
38:46
No, no, I I think this really hot fires on all cylinders.
38:49
I think it was brilliant as an audio.
38:52
And that's why I say it's like a historical because I think the
38:54
historicals work really well as like talking books.
38:58
But when the pictures came back, the biggest surprise was it
39:01
looked great as well and it was really, really fun to watch.
39:04
And it it does the one it's the one story this year.
39:07
I think that does the thing they learn later on, you know, when
39:11
they learn to do the two and four structure with a six parter
39:15
or the four and two structure and and twist it in some way.
39:20
And of course David Whitaker gets to Part 3 and goes, well, I
39:22
can't just be running around from here to there for that for
39:26
another 3 episodes. So we go underground and it
39:28
opens up the story in a massive way.
39:30
It adds that extra plot element, which means 5 and 6.
39:33
Actually there's some new things going on.
39:35
I think it's wonderful, this. I think it probably is the best
39:39
of the season. There's another one I really,
39:41
really love. But yeah, this is a banger.
39:43
Let's keep it. Excellent.
39:45
I don't have too much more to say on it, but I think it's an
39:48
absolute belter. I think it's the best of the
39:50
season by some distance. And I can only really echo the
39:54
well, well directed, the well-rounded characters.
39:58
There's that beautiful, that lovely moment where someone goes
40:01
to Fariah. Why would you take the job as a
40:03
food taster? Salamander goes, she was hungry,
40:06
but now she's got all the food. She doesn't want to eat.
40:08
And like people just do, like people go swimming and drink
40:12
wine and eat steak and things like that.
40:14
They're they're normal. They're people doing normal
40:16
things within this world, within this environment.
40:19
You know the scar that tries to shut off Astrid.
40:21
We drink wine together tonight. Exactly like there's some heavy
40:25
flirting throughout. Great action, brilliant design,
40:28
love the costumes, love the action.
40:30
I would the bunker looks great. I would like I would love to see
40:34
this in color. Like if we're talking about
40:36
colorizing Doctor Who stories. I think this would look even
40:40
better if Ben Cook savaged it. That is debatable.
40:46
I'll be joking, love you. Can I?
40:48
Ask a question to all of you though, does this stand out
40:50
because it's a good story in its own right, or does this stand
40:53
out because it is the outlier this season and not based under
40:57
siege? No, David Whittaker is by and
41:01
large a fantastic writer. He has the odd, you know, miss.
41:05
But this is a brilliant story and it will be brilliant in any
41:09
season of the 60s, I think. Yeah, I think even when I
41:11
watched it for the first time, it was relatively random, you
41:16
know, episodes. I didn't watch this in the
41:17
context the whole season that came around it, and I still kind
41:19
of came away from it thinking I'd watch something quite
41:22
special and quite memorable. But definitely within context of
41:25
Season 5, it also felt really nice.
41:27
Anything though, that can make a man with that bulk up
41:29
threatening is like, you know, it's doing something good.
41:32
You know, it's, it's, it's doing its job.
41:34
When I watched this for a commentary I did with a couple
41:38
of damn fam, the line that Faria says when she's been shot and
41:43
she says to Bennig you can't hurt me anymore and she's dying.
41:47
She's bleeding. That is so dark.
41:50
It's really adult in places for for what's a very childish bon
41:54
pastiche. There are some really adult
41:56
moments in it. Yeah, I think it's great as
41:58
well. And just one shout out for we've
42:00
mentioned the soundtrack. The loose cannon reconstruction
42:03
was what I had of it before, before it came back, which was a
42:06
monumental achievement because there's not many telly snaps or
42:09
photos from this episode before it, before it came back.
42:12
It was astonishing piece of work.
42:14
And yeah, it really convinced me of just how exciting it was.
42:19
I can't. I've been sort of kink shamed
42:21
into not watching telly snack reconstructions anymore when my
42:24
ex-husband caught me watching 1 and when you're watching still
42:28
pictures of Doctor Who with a soundtrack and I was like, yeah,
42:32
the marriage didn't last much longer, if I'm honest.
42:35
Daisy walked in on me watching ACGI Recon of the wheel and
42:38
space and I think we might have to split up.
42:40
Are you? Still getting married.
42:42
We are, but you know, it's only. Reservations.
42:48
It sounds like that's going through fantastic best of the
42:50
season, starting off on a high that we can only go up from
42:54
here, I'm sure. Let's go for Joe Ford next.
42:57
Come on, Joe, what you got? OK well because you sent so many
43:01
messages saying God this is so fucking dull just to ruin your
43:05
bit later, what about the abominable snowmen?
43:08
Because I don't really care about this one.
43:10
I'm so on the fence about it. I'm very ambivalent.
43:13
As Rob Valentine said, it's cryptozoology meets Hammer
43:17
Horror and it's a very long story, isn't it?
43:22
Does it? I think it has about 3 episodes
43:24
worth of plot and there's a lot of very slow talking in this do.
43:32
You think that's because of the runtime?
43:34
Well, I mean, it helps, doesn't it?
43:36
Every time. How do you say the name Padma
43:38
Samnava isn't it? That why not there enough hey?
43:43
I believe Barry took a look at the script.
43:45
Actually, when Terrence wrote the target and the names were
43:49
changed about a bit, so they were a bit less racially
43:52
problematic. Is that a thing?
43:54
I know there was characterization issues that
43:56
they went for the correct way in the animation, but I didn't know
44:00
they did it in the target. There is some sorry.
44:04
I was going to say I think the problem with the names is that
44:05
it's I, I could be wrong, but I think it's similar to the whole
44:08
diva loca thing in kinda I think they're names that have a
44:11
certain, you know, holy or prestige association within
44:14
within Buddhism and they just slapped them on some characters
44:16
in a in a 60s Doctor Who story. Or possibly it's the other way
44:21
around. Oh, I don't think you could call
44:24
the Abominable snowmen bad. Like it's well.
44:27
Watch me telly. No, no, it is.
44:29
It is well made telly. I mean it's directed by the
44:32
fellow that gave us the invasion of time for God's sakes.
44:34
You know, it's a competent man and there is some fun incident.
44:39
Be quiet you. And there is some fun incident
44:41
in the middle episodes. But my three reasons against it
44:45
are the Yeti are just absurd, right?
44:47
They should have been terrified. They should have been how they
44:49
are depicted in with the Web of fear.
44:52
But they're so cute and every time they attack, I mean don't
44:55
you just want to give them a cuddle?
44:57
They're gorgeous. I would buy a Yeti little
44:59
torture if I could. The monks with tape on their
45:04
eyes is so horribly problematic. I can see why they did what they
45:10
did with the animation and made things less problematic.
45:15
But you know, as well as that, they're also really fucking
45:18
boring as well. And everything they talk about,
45:21
every little detail is debated in laborious detail in this and
45:25
it's just very dull. And there's no music in this.
45:29
They they put like chanting and and sound effects in and things
45:32
like that. But I don't think you realize
45:35
how much the music pushes along the pace of getting you watch
45:39
the Ice Warriors and that's balls to the wall music.
45:42
And even though it's got issues that is too long again and
45:45
there's too much running around. Dudley Simpson's going crazy
45:48
with the music, and it really helps to sell the pace of it
45:52
because there's no music in this.
45:53
It feels like there's no pace at all.
45:55
On the plus side, I like Chris on a lot, and I think the way he
45:59
goes from hostile antagonist to brave, you know, leader of the
46:03
monks, I really like that little journey.
46:05
The location work looks gorgeous.
46:07
Clearly not in Tibet where it's supposed to be, but it does look
46:10
beautiful. There's a wonderful vision
46:13
towards the end of like this sort of flowing web, like cancer
46:18
coming out of The Cave. And I do like the fact that it
46:21
is an unusual conceptual for it rather than, you know, just
46:27
things with guns. I mean, we get things with guns
46:29
as well in the second story had I do like Padma Samnava as a
46:34
character. I, you know, the way he does, he
46:35
delivers it in a sort of creepy, drunken, insane sort of way and,
46:40
and that sort of psychological angle of going between being a
46:43
good man and an evil man. It's really interesting.
46:48
Oh, it's just so long though. It's so long this.
46:51
So I'm going to ask you, gentlemen, please, to debate the
46:54
Abominable Snowman amongst yourselves, because I'm squarely
46:58
on the fence. Okie dokie.
47:00
Well, should we see what our listeners have to say first?
47:03
Should I hit you with Gareth Bowley first of all?
47:06
Who says abominable, slow and lumbering like the titular
47:09
characters themselves? How many abominable jokes are
47:13
they going to be here? Let's find out, Paul Dunn says
47:17
over long. Great location filming, a great
47:19
cast, but I find it unremarkable and dare I say it, boring?
47:24
Jay Shawery says my main experience of The Abominable
47:27
Snowman is through Uncle Terrence.
47:29
Excellent novelization, and from what everyone said about the
47:32
animated version, I'll keep it that way.
47:35
Jason Thompson Jason, why did you always write me an essay?
47:38
A nice idea, but good Lord it's a slog.
47:40
Even the individual episodes are so slow they're almost static.
47:44
Maybe if we could see it, the atmosphere and direction would
47:46
help, but there's very little here.
47:49
Travel goes into Travers, goes into the mountain, sees
47:52
something, then has amnesia for as long as the plot requires in
47:55
order to not short circuit the doctor's process of deduction.
47:59
Victoria gets some good stuff here, and I like the way the
48:02
Yeti look cute and fluffy while being deadly and destructive.
48:07
Wolfie Mouth. Wolfie Morris is creepy as hell
48:10
but still it's boring. Chuck it.
48:13
Luke Sims, Jenkins Abominably long.
48:15
There is so much to like about it, baddies, ideas, atmosphere,
48:19
but it just drags. Why do I get the dissertation?
48:22
And you get that Daniel Knight? So many surprisingly dull.
48:26
The Yeti are a bit lifeless and the choice not to have
48:30
incidental music makes it feel hollow.
48:32
Some good performances though and nice location work.
48:35
Paul Quinn The first time I watched episode 2 of The
48:38
Abominable Snowman I was so bored I fell asleep.
48:42
I woke with a start and thought I achieved enlightenment, but it
48:45
was just the telephone ringing. Enlightenment is also really
48:48
dull and inexplicably popular. Just the only two episodes of
48:52
Doctor Who I've ever fallen asleep on on transmission, The
48:55
Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe and Joy to the World.
48:59
Wow. I don't know, Paul Cresser says.
49:03
I really like this one, and I wish it could be found.
49:06
A lot of it is due to be one of the first targets I read, but
49:08
the audio, particularly of the later episodes, sounds so
49:11
atmospheric that I'm sure it would go up in everyone's
49:14
destination if we could see it all.
49:17
James HB says a really snappy 3 or 4 part story massively padded
49:23
out with the fatal mistake of not having background music.
49:26
However, some of the monks are cute.
49:28
We all know which one I'm talking about specifically, so
49:31
definitely keep. Nearly there, folks, Michael
49:33
Storm, my nemesis, says A fairly solid story that just about gets
49:37
away with six episodes. The isolated setting works well
49:41
and there are some interesting characters.
49:42
The intelligence is far more interesting here as an abstract
49:45
menace than it ever was in New Who.
49:48
Pity the Yeti looks so cute. Wolfie Morris's vocal
49:51
performance is amazing. His old age make up not so much.
49:54
Victoria gets to be a little bit more than a screamer.
49:57
Not really. Jack Watling is great as Travers
50:00
keeper. And Kieran Evans says
50:02
atmospheric. And at least we have one
50:05
surviving episode. The pacing is rather slow.
50:08
Wolf Morris's performance as Padma Samavar and the Great
50:12
Intelligence is particularly memorable.
50:14
Well. Done.
50:15
I'm going to go next on this. I think this is dog shit.
50:18
I think this is quite comfortably the worst Patrick
50:21
Troughton story. Maybe the worst story.
50:24
Calm on the worst trout and story.
50:27
I think it's the worst story of the 60s.
50:29
OK, go on, explain yourself. Sir, I think it lacks intention.
50:34
I think there's zero plot. I think the Yeti look
50:36
ridiculous. I think Picasse board the lack
50:41
of music is just terrible. I just, I can't stand anything.
50:44
This is the dullest Doctor Who story I have ever had the
50:48
misfortune to consume. And I quite like the book when I
50:52
was a kid I read it at school. But this is just, there is
50:55
nothing. It has no redeeming factors to
50:58
it whatsoever. I can't stand it.
51:00
I hope it never gets found. I have a fucking lose episode 2
51:04
as well. Like what?
51:07
What? What does the intelligence
51:09
actually want? What are the yetis for?
51:11
What it like? And in the end, what's corporeal
51:14
existence? Yeah, but it doesn't mean it.
51:16
Yeah, fine. But why?
51:17
Why all the the shit's with the yetis?
51:20
And ultimately they solve it by just smashing everything up.
51:24
Not for the first time. I think Haysman and Lincoln
51:27
fundamentally have a couple of nice ideas over their three
51:30
Doctor Who stories, but they're not the right writers for the
51:33
show. And I'm glad that they fell out
51:35
with the BBC and never wrote anything else because this is
51:38
just, this is so dull. Dare I ask you, do you think the
51:43
Dominators is their best story? Yes, I do.
51:46
Yeah. By a by a mile.
51:47
I'm. Feeling you were going to say
51:49
that I. Mean there's some positives
51:51
about my buffet, but we'll get to that later.
51:54
I just have nothing good to say about this.
51:56
I just every character I want to punch in the face for being so
52:00
slow and boring. Not even Patrick Troughton can
52:03
pull this up out the gutter. Fuck this story.
52:07
Dylan old people are slow and boring.
52:09
Do you want to punch all them in the face?
52:11
No, but I've got time for them. Everybody in this is like 32.
52:15
They're just playing golden. It was the 60s that they drank
52:18
whiskey all day. They all looked.
52:19
Like they were like Tomley is cute.
52:21
Tomley is quite cute. Tony is an innocent little boy
52:25
and you should leave him alone. He's like 30, a boy.
52:30
He's shagging Victor Pemberton. Isn't he?
52:32
I know he. Yeah, Yeah.
52:34
And of course, Harold Pinter's in it as well.
52:36
Oh, no, he's not. So yeah, I've got nothing
52:40
positive to say about this. Bin it, bin it, bin it.
52:42
And the BBC were right for putting it in the skip.
52:47
Michael Mills, do you love it? I mean, I think that surviving
52:52
episodes, there are things about it that make me suspicious that
52:59
we're not that we that we're not seeing the best of literally not
53:03
seeing the best of the story because, you know, there are in
53:06
that episode. There are, it does feel quite
53:08
lonely and unsettling at times. Again, as with, you know, with
53:15
Enemy of the World, there are some very nice mixture of, of
53:18
studio and location shooting. It's done, you know, really,
53:21
quite nicely. I, I, I like that that really
53:26
menacing idea that, you know, at the roof of the world there is
53:30
this, this, this entity seeking corporal existence that
53:33
threatens all, all existence and some of the stuff that it gets
53:35
into about, you know, I, I, I was astral travelling is, is
53:39
very interestingly sort of 60s and, and we're.
53:42
Getting into it though, does it. But that's the but that's the
53:45
problem. That's the problem.
53:47
And I think you know the scene in inspiring episode where they
53:50
go from formally in the Abbott go in to speak to Padmas Ambivar
53:53
and we he's just a voice and we can't see him.
53:57
That's creepy, isn't? It it's it is creepy and there's
54:00
some bits where if you just close your eyes and listen to
54:02
it, you think, I can imagine this looked really creepy.
54:06
However, without it to look at, you know, that's all invisible,
54:10
which just exposes the stories. As everyone said, it's so
54:14
plotting. It was one of the ones that when
54:16
I went back to it for this, I was thinking, oh, you know, I
54:18
can't remember anything that happens in the bomable snowman
54:21
after the first episode. Nothing happens as I was as I
54:25
was watching it, I was thinking I'm this is this is like this is
54:28
being wiped from the tape of my memory as it rolls past me.
54:32
And you know, as well as as we have touched on, it's just built
54:36
on a quite a bedrock of, you know, really quite again, quite
54:40
problematic stereotypes here instantly on the names looked it
54:44
up. They're the names of real
54:46
historical figures. And so when Terence Dix came to
54:49
novelize it, apparently on the suggestion of Barry Letts, who
54:52
was of course, it was a follower of Buddhism, he slightly changed
54:56
the names because Barry Letts felt that it was unnecessary and
54:59
could possibly cause offence. So you know, that's from actual
55:02
follow of Buddhism as well. Were there no Asian actors about
55:06
at the time? I, I, I, I I I don't know.
55:13
It's so odd, isn't it? I I just don't think anybody
55:17
ever thought of it. Yeah, no, I think, I think
55:19
that's right. I think.
55:20
I think it was invisible to people.
55:21
But when you when you jump into the early 70s and they're doing
55:25
those sort of police crime dramas and they would have like
55:27
Asian gangs, suddenly there was a wealth of Asian actors on the
55:30
screen that they could call on. So I just don't understand, were
55:33
they just not looking that they just go, Oh, well, you know, Bob
55:37
can play that role. Yeah, pretty much.
55:41
OK. It's.
55:43
It's not good enough, is it? It's not good enough.
55:45
I don't think it was considered and somebody, I think it was
55:48
Mark Donaldson who brought this up.
55:49
I can't remember. But when you get to Talons,
55:51
everybody goes, oh, it was just the time that Talons goes to
55:56
Canada and they don't broadcast it because they show it to the
56:00
Asian community there who go, this is not acceptable.
56:03
And we're, we're not too far away from that, that time here.
56:06
Like what is it, 7 or 8 years? Something like that?
56:09
I mean, Dylan, I was dating this gorgeous Asian bloke, right?
56:13
And I put on talent wing Chi Yang and he said to me at the
56:16
end of episode 1, turn this off, he would have watched another
56:20
second of it. So I.
56:21
Think that's fair? Sorry, Michael, did you have
56:24
anything else to say on Abominable Snowman?
56:28
Only that it has birthed the 40 to 50 Lethbridge Stewart novels,
56:34
so you you may want to take that into consideration.
56:39
I've changed my vote. It's a keep from me.
56:42
But I'm not sure whether you're bidding or or keeping.
56:46
I'm, I'm, I am on, on the evidence presented before the
56:50
courts. I'm I'm bidding.
56:52
I think I would, I think I would be in anyway.
56:53
But I I do wonder if the things that would be slightly in
56:57
mitigation are things that we just, we just can't see, you
57:00
know? Yeah.
57:02
But fortunately we can't see it, so we're not a bit.
57:05
Elliot, what about you? Were you a snowman lover?
57:11
I'm John glad to have gone last because I kind of wanted to hear
57:13
what everybody else had to say because this is a this is a
57:16
strange story for me, I think because I remember watching it
57:21
originally when I was going through it, I watched it with
57:23
the loose cannon reconstruction and I remember not hating it,
57:26
you know, watching the original episode too.
57:28
I remember quite enjoying it and then when they announced that
57:32
animation I was quite excited. The trailer they did for a super
57:36
super atmospheric, you've got Pam Samuel doing a voice over
57:39
and his creepy laugh and everything felt really cold and
57:42
echoey. And I watched about 3 episodes
57:44
of the black and white animation and never actually watched it
57:47
again. So this time around I watched
57:50
the full colour thing. I was like, you know, we'll
57:52
watch the wide screen full colour, see if it maybe aids the
57:54
story along. And I mean, it's just so boring.
57:59
And I can't work out how much of it is down to the fact that the
58:01
animation is just not my style. There's so many just static wide
58:05
shots of people standing in groups delivering dialogue.
58:08
I mean, he's. Copying the direction.
58:10
Really there? Isn't he in the animation?
58:12
It's so there's there's something about animation where
58:15
they can make things more exciting if they choose to and
58:17
they really don't like there's some shots even in the animation
58:20
where I think like, oh, this is quite and I love the animation
58:23
range, but there are some shots that I think are quite
58:24
embarrassing, like when all the monks just kind of whack the
58:26
yetis with sticks and it just looks it's so it's it somehow
58:31
makes a really dull story even more wooden that it should be if
58:34
that's. A bad animation from the
58:37
animation. What's a good one?
58:39
I think I just like the ones that are I don't, I like the
58:42
ones that take risks or the ones that are just slight more
58:44
dynamic. I mean, I think my, I think the
58:49
the Evil of the Daleks animation is really good and I'm generally
58:53
not actually very down on them because I appreciate that the
58:55
effort that goes into them. I think you go a long way to
58:58
beat some of the original kind of Planet 55, like proper, like
59:01
we're reconstructing the episodes here.
59:03
But I like it when they go back to it.
59:05
I really enjoyed the Celestial Toymaker 1 because that's just
59:08
nonsense. They.
59:10
Somehow managed to make that endurable.
59:13
But I think there's just, yeah, just some state.
59:15
I mean, I appreciate the stylistic choice that's also
59:17
make the monks actually Tibetan, you know, character models.
59:21
I kind of do. Jeremy Bentham didn't, but we
59:24
won't talk about that. It's one of those I appreciate
59:26
it. I can understand this kind of
59:28
maybe sort of patches over something that's uncomfortable
59:32
so we don't have to kind of consider or talk about it.
59:34
But I think that it was a very, it was a very nice move.
59:38
But yeah, I mean, I think it's just boring.
59:41
There's just lots of standing around talking about things that
59:44
could be happening and might be happening and what's happening
59:46
over there and what's happening up the mountain.
59:48
And I don't really care, which sounds really horrible, but I
59:52
just like, I find myself struggling to care.
59:55
I will say, though, I think that I love Patrick Trout's cope.
59:59
You know, who doesn't love that big furry jacket?
1:00:02
And they get mileage out of it. This series, although I would
1:00:05
actually prefer. If that gambit happened in the
1:00:08
Ice Warriors and he came out wearing like a snakeskin jacket
1:00:10
and everyone thought he was like an Ice Warrior, I think that
1:00:12
would be 10 times funny. But yeah, no, I don't really
1:00:15
have much Jack because I I think it's, I think it's boring and I
1:00:18
don't think it's animation does it justice really.
1:00:20
So I'm going to pin it. Under him, you know Victoria's
1:00:25
even more annoying than usual. You know, when she's repeating
1:00:28
that take me away, take me away. Oh Christ.
1:00:31
That's she doesn't get anything to do in this story either.
1:00:34
Like, not that I'm saying victorious usually particularly
1:00:37
well served by the scripts, but she's so underused here it's
1:00:40
really bad. Sorry.
1:00:42
Michael, you've got to say something then.
1:00:43
Oh. I was just going to say, oh, I'm
1:00:45
of an age where I was watching the animated reconstruction and
1:00:48
I was thinking, do you remember Monkey Dust?
1:00:51
That was. I do.
1:00:53
I do remember. What was that very early BBC 3
1:00:58
animated comedy? Go, Go, go check it out.
1:01:01
Doesn't look like the Abominable Snowman animation.
1:01:03
Yes, but it's the content isn't quite the same.
1:01:06
The worst this year by a mile is the Mr. Tickle Arms of fury from
1:01:10
the deep. Well, it's unbelievable.
1:01:13
We'll get there, Joe. We'll get.
1:01:15
There the things I could do with those long arms.
1:01:19
And like reach a high shelf. Yes, indeed.
1:01:22
What do you think I was talking about?
1:01:25
Tickle a giraffe's chin so it falls.
1:01:29
Abominable Snowmen. Once hailed as a classic, it's
1:01:32
gone. Expunged from the cannon.
1:01:35
Burnt, wiped, destroyed. Excellent.
1:01:38
I rocket it, yeah. So we've had Elliot and Joe,
1:01:42
right? That's right.
1:01:44
So, Michael Mills, why don't you hit us with your first choice?
1:01:49
I'm going to go for the. Ice Warriors. 1 and my 3 and I'm
1:02:04
going to champion the Ice Warriors and I'm going to give
1:02:08
you 3 reasons like the format demand one of those is that it's
1:02:12
a little bit of a glimpse it's a little bit of a glimpse of the
1:02:15
future. You know that juxtaposition of
1:02:17
elements the the the the old country house in a in a
1:02:21
primordial frozen landscape with futuristic tech inside and
1:02:25
aliens outside the doctor walking him in walking in and
1:02:30
and people are suspicious, but he proves himself through his
1:02:33
through his ability straight forward.
1:02:34
It is it's all it's all idiosyncratically Doctor Who in
1:02:38
a way that feels very prescient of what the show would become.
1:02:40
You know, there's all quite familiar and they're things that
1:02:42
are very specifically Doctor Who.
1:02:44
They're things you can't do in Star Trek or, you know, it's
1:02:46
not, it's not we love any of them, enemy of the world, but
1:02:49
it's not Doctor Who pretending to be anything else than the
1:02:52
Doctor Who itself. Also, that idea of this, you
1:02:58
know, burgeoning ecological understanding is in there as
1:03:01
well. Of course, you know, what's
1:03:02
happening to the planet and factors that might affect us are
1:03:05
very different understandings. But I think this is one of the
1:03:08
earliest glimpses we get of, you know, eco apocalypse in Doctor
1:03:12
Who, which is actually, you know, recurring theme in in the
1:03:14
show across across decades since then.
1:03:17
My, my second reason is unusually for this season, it
1:03:25
presents a world that I'm really interested in.
1:03:28
I, I, I'd like, I'm interested in this future world and the
1:03:30
situation that these characters find themselves in with the
1:03:33
advancing glaciers and, and the threat that is posed against all
1:03:36
of them. And, and these people's, the
1:03:38
relationship of the people in the base and the ice Warriors
1:03:41
themselves, although, you know, there's not a huge amount to
1:03:43
them, they're quite interesting, interesting characters.
1:03:46
And I do sort of feel like if when they go out into the, the
1:03:50
tundra or the slightly snowy hillside where they shot it, I
1:03:53
do feel like you could keep going.
1:03:55
Those things are all connected. And there is this this this
1:03:58
little island of humanity in a, in a in a, in a, in a lost
1:04:02
planet is did you? Just say slightly snowy
1:04:04
hillside. Yeah.
1:04:06
You know this is all in a studio, right?
1:04:09
There is no location work in the Ice Warriors at all.
1:04:12
Not even the bit with JB. On the stage.
1:04:15
Well, there we go. It may be a snowy hillside, but
1:04:19
it's a very impressively one done in the studio.
1:04:22
Yeah, I, I, I genuinely thought they'd just, they'd, you know,
1:04:25
thrown some whatever it was that gave Michael Cray's problems on
1:04:28
the 10th planet over William Hartle.
1:04:33
And my third reason is I think an incredibly smart production
1:04:38
decision here, which is that this is the story that
1:04:42
introduces the Ice Warriors, right?
1:04:45
And they did, they did the film, they did the filming in advance
1:04:50
and they did episode 1 and they realized that the costume looked
1:04:54
crap and they got, they got two more of them made.
1:04:57
And every single and every single time you a, it means we
1:05:01
get more Ice Warriors on screen than you're used to seeing of
1:05:03
that number of monsters. But every time you see the two
1:05:07
hero Ice Warriors alongside the that original costume, you just
1:05:11
think a the new one looks great, It moves much better, the
1:05:16
proportions make much more sense.
1:05:18
And you also think there is not a chance in hell that if they
1:05:22
had not changed that costume, the Ice Warriors would have
1:05:25
returned and one of Doctor Who's, let's say, top top
1:05:30
seconds tier monsters would would never have have have been
1:05:34
really. And they'd be like the Crotons,
1:05:35
one of those ones that everyone takes the Mick out of, you know,
1:05:38
Oh, with the little crinkly arms and the wobbly head.
1:05:41
So I think it just shows there's some there's some real smarts
1:05:45
playing into making and a lot of care because one of the, you
1:05:48
know, often when things are a bit shoddy or what have you, a
1:05:50
1960s Doctor Who, you sort of have the excuse of, well, no one
1:05:54
thought we were anyone was going to see it again, really, right.
1:05:57
So you get away with it like that, like the Salamander and
1:06:00
the doctor shot in Enemy of the World.
1:06:02
And just moments that I think, no, there's a real care going on
1:06:05
here for something that was only ever expected to be seen once
1:06:08
and it really pays off. I like the Ice Warriors.
1:06:12
The hissing is genius, isn't it? One, because it's easily
1:06:16
imitated by kids, and two is because you you just hear the
1:06:20
hissing before you see them, so the kids are immediately scared,
1:06:24
you know? Yeah, yeah.
1:06:25
And it gives their voices this it because they are.
1:06:28
You know, I think Mark Gatiss has said that one of the reasons
1:06:31
that Steven Moffett held off reintroducing for so long was
1:06:34
because he saw them as being the archetypal lumbering Doctor Who
1:06:37
monster. But that hissing way of talking,
1:06:40
which the the thinking is, I can't actually, I remember if
1:06:43
it's if it's actually said on the screen, if they hold on to
1:06:45
the seeds of death. But the thinking was that
1:06:47
they're struggling in our atmosphere to speak, to speak
1:06:51
like that, to to breathe and to speak.
1:06:52
And suddenly on the. Dying days again, aren't you?
1:06:55
Lance Sparky makes more of it, but there's the bit in The Seeds
1:06:57
of Death where we see the Marshall in his native
1:07:00
environment and he's not hissing.
1:07:02
Please pay attention, Joe. But it suddenly turns that
1:07:07
lumbering awkwardness into into character rather than a product
1:07:12
of the suit. And to be honest, I get like
1:07:15
that when I walk up a very steep hill, so.
1:07:18
I've walked up a hill with him. I cannot tell.
1:07:21
Was it? Was it a snowy hill that looked
1:07:23
surprisingly convincing? No, we was.
1:07:25
We was tramping up the devil's hump, and I'll leave that to
1:07:28
imagination. Shall we go to the comments?
1:07:33
Yes indeed, Paul Cresser says. I remember seeing a ropey pirate
1:07:37
VH of the VHS of this not long after it had been discovered.
1:07:41
Didn't really engage me then, which I put down to the quality
1:07:43
of the recording, but it hasn't really grown on me despite
1:07:46
seeing it in much better quality now.
1:07:48
Love the intro to each episode though.
1:07:51
Oh don't you love it? Oh, I love it.
1:07:56
That should have been what we did.
1:07:57
Whenever someone says basically. I'll pop that in now, yeah.
1:08:02
Michael Storm says over long and badly padded.
1:08:05
I actually prefer the VHS version with the 15 minutes
1:08:08
summarized versions of episodes two and three.
1:08:10
The warriors look good but just spend most of the time standing
1:08:14
around waiting for their pre recorded dialogue to kick in.
1:08:17
The main trio of male guests leads is interesting, especially
1:08:21
if you view if you view through the lens of Clint and Penley
1:08:24
having been a couple. Absolutely we do.
1:08:28
Victoria is just whiny and annoying here.
1:08:31
Man I was hoping. I think the whole mountain would
1:08:33
fall down on a bin. Whining and annoying here, just
1:08:37
here. OK, Daniel Knight says dull, but
1:08:40
the titular monsters are very impressive.
1:08:43
Bernard Breslaw is great as vodka.
1:08:45
The ice caves at Ealing are impressive.
1:08:47
But an impressive cast is wasted playing irritating characters.
1:08:51
The plot can't support 4 episodes, let alone 6, so
1:08:54
there's a lot of boring arguing as padding Daniel.
1:08:57
That is the season, not this story.
1:09:01
Luke Sims, Jenkins Stank Nuggets.
1:09:05
Let's. Can we have a translation for
1:09:08
the? Yeah, he says it all the time on
1:09:10
the book clubs. If he doesn't like a book, he
1:09:11
calls it Stank Nuggets. I think it's basically shit.
1:09:15
Indeed, it's a It's a smelly nugget.
1:09:19
Let's take the moon base format and make it longer and worse.
1:09:23
Even watching it burn would be dull.
1:09:27
He's really got an issue with the moon base, isn't he?
1:09:29
Jay Showery says. While the Ice Warriors
1:09:30
themselves are a triumph of design, their debut stories, Oh
1:09:34
dear, Stinks worse on a beach at low tide, episode after episode,
1:09:38
agonizing over whether to do something or not.
1:09:41
Heck, even the Martians get drawn into this tedious
1:09:44
argument. Bennett, along with the rest of
1:09:46
the freezer, refuse. James HB says offensively bad
1:09:51
science, meaning the story is so absolutely flawed in my mind
1:09:55
that it needs binning and wiping from history.
1:09:57
Yes it looks pretty, but it's slower than an arthritic ice
1:10:00
warrior and populated by morons. Bin, then melt the bin.
1:10:06
It's very extreme reactions to the Ice Warriors here.
1:10:09
Kieran Evans, dodgy science, slow pacing.
1:10:12
Not a good outing for Victoria. It may be memorable as the first
1:10:16
outing for our Martian friends, but not one I rush to watch.
1:10:20
Anybody that's here for in Doctor Who for accurate science
1:10:24
just like. Come on, right?
1:10:25
I'm bringing out my Series 8B with Jason Thompson's reading on
1:10:29
Kill the Moon on Sunday. God help us all.
1:10:32
Jason, Tom as you. Say, if we're touching on
1:10:35
science, can we also have a moment to remember the bit where
1:10:38
Varga threatens to switch to depressurize the airlock that
1:10:43
the doctor's in? Which is particularly alarming
1:10:45
for anyone who's seen Licensed to Kill.
1:10:49
That's that's what I was thinking of at that moment.
1:10:53
And finally, Jason Thompson. I'd keep the ice Warriors.
1:10:55
The story is incredibly dull, but Peter Barkworth, Peter Salas
1:10:59
and Bernard Breslau are superb. Varga is a brilliant villain.
1:11:03
Villain. Varga is a brilliant villain.
1:11:06
I particularly like that he is furious with Victoria for
1:11:09
running away because it costs the life of one of his men.
1:11:12
An unusual showing of care for subordinates from a Doctor Who
1:11:15
monster. Unfortunately, Victoria is
1:11:18
abysmal in this. Just this.
1:11:20
Mostly crying or wailing or screaming, which makes some of
1:11:24
it hard to sit through. She even has to fake cry in one
1:11:27
scene as if she hasn't done enough of the real thing.
1:11:30
Crying, wailing and screaming, I keep repeating myself.
1:11:34
But that is the season, right? So let's come to Elliot next.
1:11:40
This is, I don't know, this isn't, this is again, also quite
1:11:44
interesting for me because this was the this is the very first
1:11:47
Ice Warrior story that I ever watched.
1:11:50
I had that Mark Gatiss one and the submarine one and seeds of
1:11:56
death. Or is it doom death?
1:11:59
There's so many seeds of stuff at my fingertips, but I watched
1:12:02
this one first and I remember going, oh, this is going to be
1:12:04
great. It's the Ice Warriors because
1:12:06
everybody talks about, you know, the Ice Warriors.
1:12:07
They're quite iconic. And I remember watching it and
1:12:12
not definitely not hating it, but just finding it's pacing
1:12:16
rather, shall I say, glacial. Thank you.
1:12:23
Don't have him back, Boo. So it was one that I was really
1:12:27
keen to come back to because I thought I knew what I thought
1:12:31
about it. And now I don't because I really
1:12:33
enjoyed the first half of the story, especially episode 1 of
1:12:37
the setup I thought was incredibly atmospheric and then
1:12:42
finding the ice were buried deep in the ice was so creepy.
1:12:46
And I always enjoy when people are trying to figure out a
1:12:48
villain, especially when you, I mean, you wouldn't have known at
1:12:50
the time, But if you know in hindsight what it is, there's
1:12:52
something quite exciting about the build up to it.
1:12:56
But I I just don't think it's one that I can wrap my head
1:12:59
around. And I think mostly, and I've got
1:13:01
a probably going against, I think even most of the comments
1:13:04
of people who didn't like it, honestly, it's the fucking ice
1:13:06
warriors. I really don't like them in any
1:13:09
store. I mean, I quite like season
1:13:11
death, but I don't like ice warriors.
1:13:12
They are annoying. They've got Lego man hands, fur
1:13:17
collars. There's too much hair going on.
1:13:19
There's way too much hair going on.
1:13:20
There's that close up on the defrosted one at the end of
1:13:23
episode 1 and it is so furry. It makes me feel a bit
1:13:25
uncomfortable, like, you know, body positivity, fine, you know,
1:13:30
But on the Ice Warriors, it just looks terrifying.
1:13:34
He's all man on that ice warrior.
1:13:37
They've got those stupid, that's why I picked the hisses, because
1:13:39
they've got those stupid fucking voices where I don't want to
1:13:42
listen to anything that they're saying because it just grates
1:13:44
away. It sounds like they're sighing
1:13:46
every time they deliver a line of dialogue.
1:13:49
Yes, even we're bored. I'm just like, so yeah.
1:13:56
But I did genuinely enjoy, you know, I'm a sucker for a good
1:13:59
set piece. I like the tide.
1:14:00
I like the TARDIS sliding down the hillside and everybody, you
1:14:04
know, scrambling to get out of it.
1:14:05
That's very fun. Physical comedy.
1:14:07
I, I don't know. I mean, we're five seasons in,
1:14:10
we got a, we got 2 Vargas and a Marga.
1:14:13
And I think when, when there's, when they said Varga, I was
1:14:16
like, oh, brilliant. Another one.
1:14:18
Haven't we got like 10 of those already so far?
1:14:22
So I think tentatively, because there's stuff I like, but just
1:14:25
to be a bit of a prick, I'm going to say Chuck this at the
1:14:27
bin. Joe Ford, come on.
1:14:32
Two Vargas and a Marga. That's got to be.
1:14:34
The comment of the night, right? Has the Vibro chair become
1:14:40
commercially available? I'd just like to ask that
1:14:42
question first. I've been sat on one all
1:14:44
evening. Have you got this grid on my
1:14:48
face? Having a stressful day recording
1:14:51
a podcast? Are your guests unusually surly
1:14:54
and bothersome? Then look no further for the
1:14:57
ultimate comfort in podcast relax ability.
1:15:01
The Vibro Chair suits away all those absurd podcast guests
1:15:06
opinions. The vibro chair put a smile on
1:15:09
your face while you wax lyrical about Patrick Troughton.
1:15:13
The vibro chair yetis in Tooting Beck are calling Botanica based
1:15:18
terms and conditions apply. Leader Clint stains can be wiped
1:15:20
off. Jamie and Victoria might have
1:15:22
had it off on one. I do agree with Elliot.
1:15:27
The second-half of this story, it is a bit of a slog where
1:15:30
we're just trying to figure out basically what the engine spec
1:15:33
is, aren't we? That's all we're trying to do
1:15:35
for three episodes. Yes, but did you see the
1:15:38
engines? Tell me what's the engines?
1:15:40
You know? Oh, bloody oh, by the end, just
1:15:42
take off, all right? Who cares?
1:15:45
But I do really like this. I really like the Ice Warriors.
1:15:47
I think this feels a bit like a historical in the future again,
1:15:52
and it's deliberately sort of going for that because it's got
1:15:55
a huge focus on character rather than plot, and the historicals
1:15:59
do that quite a lot. I think Michael's been reading
1:16:02
my notes. I also put down a bizarre
1:16:04
juxtaposition of the ancient mansion decked out with
1:16:08
technological gobbins in the snow as the last hope for
1:16:11
mankind, which is a really great idea, right?
1:16:15
And don't you just love that first scene when the TARDIS
1:16:18
arrives on its side and they're all climbing out and like,
1:16:21
Victoria's shit, right? She is terrible as a character,
1:16:25
but I think Watling, Trout and and Heinz have great chemistry
1:16:28
together. You put them in a scene together
1:16:31
and let them have fun. Like when they're throwing the
1:16:33
foam in each other's face inferior from the deep or stuff
1:16:35
like that. Well, that's because Heinz and
1:16:37
Watling is shagging at this point, aren't they?
1:16:39
Well, you can tell if she's on his lap, isn't she in that
1:16:41
helicopter in Enemy of the World?
1:16:44
I love that too, of course. The love affair between Clint
1:16:47
and Penley, The greatest gay romance in all of Doctor Who.
1:16:51
Once lovers, now estranged, and their differences have become
1:16:55
the one thing that they obsess about all the time.
1:16:58
He left him for a homeless man. He left him for a hairy
1:17:01
Scotsman. All right.
1:17:02
I'm planning on doing that with one of the Polish box boys.
1:17:05
Leave it alone. They've got toxic reactions to
1:17:09
each other, they're quite violent at times, and yet
1:17:11
they're still just a glimmer of grudging respect and affection
1:17:15
between them. I bet the sex was amazing
1:17:17
though, right? I mean, honestly, you can only
1:17:20
hate somebody this much if you're not at it anymore and you
1:17:23
miss it. I do think Butterworth and Salas
1:17:27
are both brilliant in their roles and I think Wendy Gifford,
1:17:30
as is it Miss Garrett, is that a name in this?
1:17:35
Sure, sure, go for it. Thank you very much.
1:17:37
You really weren't paying attention, were you?
1:17:40
And Angus Linney are wonderful support for their two characters
1:17:43
as well. And I just think they keep this
1:17:46
interesting, their relationships, you know, Penny
1:17:49
coming in and out of the base, Clint's reaction to all of that.
1:17:53
I I just think that all really works.
1:17:55
The score is amazing in this. Dudley Simpson, He does great
1:17:58
scores in the Trout era, doesn't he?
1:18:00
I don't know what happened in the 70s when he suddenly started
1:18:03
going all electric, but when he was playing with instruments in
1:18:05
the 60s, he's having the best time.
1:18:07
The bit where Victoria's running through the tundra in Episode 4
1:18:11
and it's like wonderful. And I do think the Ice Warriors
1:18:20
make sense in this story. I'm not sure what they ever make
1:18:24
sense after this. You put them in a setting where
1:18:27
you can't get away in a hurry. So the fact that they're
1:18:30
lumbering creatures makes sense, right?
1:18:32
They can catch up with you because you don't run in the
1:18:34
snow and they've got a wonderful silhouette.
1:18:37
So I think they make sense in black and white when they're in
1:18:40
colour, in detail. Then suddenly you see a lot of
1:18:44
imperfections in those costumes, but in black and white.
1:18:46
But go watch those silhouetted shots of the Ice Warrior in the
1:18:50
seas of death with the sun behind him on location.
1:18:53
It's a great silhouette. It's just whenever the, you
1:18:56
know, the studio lights are on them, It's a bit a bit
1:18:58
embarrassing. No, I think there's lots to
1:19:00
enjoy here. It's too long again, but I think
1:19:03
the setting, the production, the direction is really great.
1:19:07
The character work is interesting, the score is great,
1:19:09
and the Ice Warriors are memorable.
1:19:11
So I would keep this one. So it's what?
1:19:13
A piece? Well.
1:19:16
I love your point about the engine spec being the plot
1:19:19
device of the last couple of episodes.
1:19:20
That bit where Varga turns up and asks for the asks for
1:19:23
wherever he's basically going. Do you have premium unleaded?
1:19:30
We've we require 98 octane. The worst bit though, is where
1:19:36
Leader Clint is on the phone to Victoria, she's going, oh, I
1:19:40
don't know, can you see the engines, child?
1:19:42
Have a look. I'm not sure.
1:19:44
Then she just goes running off into the snow.
1:19:47
Oh, she's fucking useless, isn't she?
1:19:49
Sorry, Dylan, it's down to you. It is down to me.
1:19:52
And I said there's been a couple of revelations, both good and
1:19:56
bad for this season, and this was a positive one.
1:19:59
I was so surprised with how much I love this.
1:20:02
I went into it sort of dreading it, thinking, you know, it's
1:20:05
terrible that Michael Mills is doing some great hand movements
1:20:08
and you'll just you'll never get an audio.
1:20:10
But I think the issue with it is that episode 1 is great and
1:20:19
then. Episode 2 and three obviously
1:20:21
don't exist, so you're all already on a back foot by either
1:20:24
doing it by audio or animation. And so that sort of takes you
1:20:29
out the story. And episode 2 is very Victoria
1:20:32
centric, so that's enough to put anyone off and you've just got a
1:20:35
lot of hats, hats. But once you get back into the
1:20:41
story and it starts moving with real pictures again, I mean, I
1:20:45
don't want to repeat everything that everybody said.
1:20:48
So, you know, direction design, blah, blah, blah.
1:20:51
Victorian mansion in the snow. All of it looks amazing.
1:20:55
But again, it's the much like enemy.
1:20:57
It's the real character war work in this.
1:21:00
There's that lovely little moment in the end where Clint
1:21:03
sort of says sorry in his own way to Penley.
1:21:07
Penley calling Clint a machine to the slave.
1:21:10
When Arden finds the warrior, he pretends to, you know, that the
1:21:14
signals breaking up and stuff like that.
1:21:15
It's just all, all nice little moments.
1:21:17
And I think it's just rich with atmosphere.
1:21:21
I think I, I cannot believe that we make a story like this.
1:21:26
It looks so good in a studio. And, you know, we get to the 70s
1:21:32
and I'm not a big fan of the Jumper era.
1:21:34
And it all just looks so cruddy by the time you get to Season 8.
1:21:38
And this look, this is really the top of its game.
1:21:42
And it's still got a relevant message of sort of how much
1:21:45
faith that we place in technology.
1:21:47
And, you know, Clint's obviously someone who really believes in
1:21:50
it and Penley isn't. And I just think that's that
1:21:53
that's a story that science fiction is told again and again
1:21:55
and again is still relevant. And it's nice to see one of
1:21:58
Doctor Who's cracks of it here. So this base may be very much
1:22:02
under siege, but it's done in such style.
1:22:06
It's my second favorite of the season, though it's going
1:22:08
through. Great computer voice as well.
1:22:11
No one's mentioned that computer voice is great.
1:22:13
And I think Clint is the best base leader of the season.
1:22:17
Yeah, I have to think about that.
1:22:20
So Ice Warriors goes through what's a victory for?
1:22:26
Lego hands of joy. Lego Hands of joy.
1:22:29
That's 21 then, isn't it? Two or three.
1:22:32
Oh, he's writing down on his bit of paper as we go.
1:22:34
I love it. Very technical, very technical
1:22:37
thing Got a got a pen in the pad.
1:22:38
So it's my go. Is it?
1:22:40
It is. So I'd like to talk about a
1:22:43
story that features a brand new companion, that features the
1:22:49
return of an iconic monster. And it's not the Wheel in Space,
1:22:55
it's not Tomb of the Cyberman. It's Evil of the Daleks.
1:22:59
And you may say Evil of the Daleks.
1:23:01
That's not in Season 5, but it is.
1:23:04
It's the first in Canon repeat. And it is very much part of this
1:23:09
season. Now within Season 4, I always
1:23:14
think Episode 7, you know, great episode, but the rest of it's a
1:23:18
bit of a dance squid, but like at the end of a very exciting
1:23:21
season that's trying all sorts of different things.
1:23:24
And power of the Daleks is one of the most iconic Daleks
1:23:28
stories. So evil has a bit of issues at
1:23:30
the end, but when you've had a bunch of base under sieges, this
1:23:34
one at the end where we've got antique shops and we've got
1:23:40
Daleks and we've got Victorian mansions and we've got Scaro,
1:23:43
all of a sudden, I think this is a better story because of its
1:23:47
placement within this season. I think it actually makes the
1:23:51
story better. I love all the I love the
1:23:54
Emperor Dalek. I love all the sort of the
1:23:57
manipulation of Jamie by the Doctor.
1:23:59
I love all of it. So I am putting Evil of the
1:24:03
Daleks through whether you guys want to or not as a fantastic
1:24:08
win for this season, and it is, but it is in Season 4.
1:24:13
I forgot we were doing this. Well, you can forget all you
1:24:19
want, but it is part of the Canon.
1:24:21
They even novelised it. They did two novelisations, one
1:24:24
of which was of the repeat. So my main reason for putting it
1:24:28
through is that it's better here than it is in the previous.
1:24:31
Season. There is a novelisation of the
1:24:33
repeat, isn't it? Yeah, well, no.
1:24:37
Comments on it. There's no comments so I'll just
1:24:40
say please refer to the season 4 episode of Strictly Come Hamster
1:24:43
where I declared it. The second best story of the
1:24:45
season are The Power of the Daleks, and it's through for me.
1:24:50
Great, Michael Mills got anything to say on Evil the
1:24:53
Daleks? Well, I want to know how much of
1:24:55
a fan are you? Did you watch the version that
1:24:57
has the additional Patrick Troughton voice over at the
1:24:59
start of? Course I did.
1:25:02
Yeah, you win this one race. Because otherwise I wouldn't.
1:25:05
I wouldn't. I'd be watching the Season 4 one
1:25:07
and I'd be wrong. Yeah, you would Doug.
1:25:10
Apologies I I not not accuse you of such unprofessional.
1:25:13
Have you seen the minutiae? He goes into it his podcast.
1:25:17
You expect him to get the details wrong.
1:25:20
I, I, I actually really like this is part of the flow as
1:25:23
well, because it's, it's also just really clever because it
1:25:25
turns the whole season in. You know, mentioned this season
1:25:29
has a particular character to it, but it also turns the whole
1:25:32
thing into a giant loop because tomb opens, follows right on
1:25:36
from the end of evil. So you can, if you wanted to,
1:25:39
just watch season 5 on on repeat and loop in a perpetual loop
1:25:45
from which you will never escape of just victorious screams get
1:25:48
louder every time. Never escaped.
1:25:50
Ever. Watling.
1:25:51
Ever. I also like the animated
1:25:54
reconstruction for this one and one of the things I really like
1:25:56
about it is the in the first episode, the little detail, it's
1:26:01
obviously it follows straight on from the end of the faceless
1:26:03
ones. But in the reconstruction, when
1:26:05
they're in the, you know, the shed that's still at Gatwick,
1:26:08
they have the little chameleon tours branding in the
1:26:11
background. They're just I like that idea
1:26:12
that this story is beginning in the wings of the last story, not
1:26:16
just following straight on, but like it literally occupies the
1:26:20
same space. That's really nice.
1:26:22
And also, you know what, it's nice to see a companion get an
1:26:25
induction as well. Just sat down here are some of
1:26:28
the things that might come up. I want to I like to watch that.
1:26:31
Afterwards, they had a little sort of Q&A session where Zoe,
1:26:34
can you can you maybe just flag up a few things that Victoria
1:26:37
did badly there and that you could do better?
1:26:40
Maybe that's why she's just a better question.
1:26:42
I've got questions. So my daddy's gonna die.
1:26:44
I'm gonna get held hostage and possibly tortured.
1:26:47
My friends are gonna die. And I'm not allowed to feed the
1:26:50
flying pests outside. What's?
1:26:52
Going on, what's in it for me? At least we know, you know, if
1:26:55
we watched the evil of the Daleks, well, we know we're
1:26:58
always going to get Zoe back at the end of it.
1:27:00
The repeat. Which is all all we ever wanted.
1:27:03
And I realized we're flogging this joke to death a little bit
1:27:06
and we are going to go over to Elliot in a second.
1:27:08
If this wins season 5, come answer, the Michael Grade
1:27:14
listener may cancel us outright. Let's see what happens.
1:27:19
Go on, Elliot. Although I could talk about Even
1:27:22
the Daleks for hours, but considering I kind of didn't
1:27:25
really realize this was happening, I'm just going to say
1:27:27
what I said to you. I'm just going to say what I
1:27:29
said to you when we first started talking about doing this
1:27:31
recording, which is justice for Toby Haydock.
1:27:34
Even the Daleks goes through. Yes, look at that.
1:27:39
Can I have a? Four way win.
1:27:40
Oh no, Enemy of the world got a four way win as well.
1:27:42
Oh my God. Got to write this down on my
1:27:44
pad. So we've sort of reached the
1:27:49
halfway point. There was eight stories, but
1:27:51
some idea threw a 9th in, but let's call it the halfway point.
1:27:54
So, Elliot, do you want to kick us off with some more listener
1:27:59
feedback on this, the season as a whole?
1:28:02
Yeah, I'd be happy to. Excellent.
1:28:05
So Paul Dunn says season 5 has absolute bangers in it but
1:28:08
suffers from being very samey. Base under siege stories as ever
1:28:17
and enjoys a great relationship with Fraser Heinz.
1:28:20
But I've never been a big Victoria fan.
1:28:22
You know when someone says bangers, is it just me do?
1:28:27
You think sausages? Sausages.
1:28:29
Yeah. Oh.
1:28:30
It's. Just you, you're you're thinking
1:28:32
tits on. Yeah.
1:28:34
Joe Ford, you closet. It's got some.
1:28:36
Absolutely. Oh, old cars, old cars.
1:28:39
It's Jenna Coleman. She's got me on the turn.
1:28:44
Michael Storm says Season 5 has the confident swagger of a team
1:28:48
who think they've found the formula for the Great Who, but
1:28:52
miss that repeatedly. Using the formula will make it
1:28:55
thin and stale and ultimately it becomes the Brewers fair menu.
1:29:01
I love a Brewers Fair. Peter Old says it's one of the
1:29:04
best seasons of old who now we have it all.
1:29:07
Either with original broadcast material or excellent animation,
1:29:11
we can see what a master or a monster season it is.
1:29:14
Yes, there are some 60 social views slash mistakes that we
1:29:17
cringe at today, but they were products of their time and
1:29:20
should be understood as such rather than exercised out of
1:29:24
embarrassment. The cyber sandwich of Tomb and
1:29:26
Wheeler is brilliant and quite frankly, Wheeler is a great Rob.
1:29:31
It is Peter. I was saying them that the
1:29:33
animation of Abominable Snowmen should feature animated
1:29:38
characters with tape at their eyes.
1:29:40
I don't think that's what he was saying.
1:29:41
I. Just wanted to make sure.
1:29:43
He was recognizing it and and saying we should probably go.
1:29:46
It was a different time and this is.
1:29:48
Acceptable, Jeremy Bentham said that All right, the BFI.
1:29:51
When I was there. Jeremy Bentham can fuck off.
1:29:54
No fair. No.
1:29:55
Edward Cook Reese I love season 5.
1:29:59
This season the makers have decided that this formula works,
1:30:01
so let's stick to it. The Cyberman opener is great,
1:30:04
but it's a shame the other stories are all six parters as
1:30:07
it does cause some to suffer that big the audience.
1:30:10
Charlie Barnes says unlike the psychedelic and experimental
1:30:14
seasons surrounding it, Trout and sophomore year is a lot more
1:30:17
grounded and formulaic, with all but one being a base under siege
1:30:24
tale. Still, you can't argue with
1:30:26
success. Anthony Carroll says great
1:30:30
season, love bass under siege. Trouching is superb throughout.
1:30:34
Great villains and monsters. It can be bit repetitive EG Mad
1:30:38
bosses 8 out of 10. Which is that a fair point
1:30:41
actually. Salamander mad boss.
1:30:43
But everyone's had a mad boss in most of their jobs, right?
1:30:46
So it makes sense. Whoever's hasn't worked for a
1:30:49
bad boss. In fact, I was a mad boss at one
1:30:51
point. Paul Crasser says back in the
1:30:55
80s received fan wisdom was that this was the pinnacle of Doctor
1:30:58
Who apart from Enemy of the World, which was considered a
1:31:01
bit of a duffer. Now that it is more accessible,
1:31:04
we can see although it is very good, it is very formulaic and
1:31:08
actually Enemy is one of the highlights.
1:31:10
Spider Man 72 says I really want to like this season, but I find
1:31:14
it Hanford by Victoria one of my least favorite companions.
1:31:18
It's a strong run of stories though, Despite that drag
1:31:20
factor, with the highlight for me being the enemy of the world
1:31:23
where Trouton is superb. And finally, it feels like an
1:31:26
honour for me to say this. Big orange Michael, a season
1:31:31
with a lot of six part stories and spaces under siege.
1:31:35
Thanks a lot. Thanks to a lot of recoveries
1:31:38
and animations, I feel like I've got a better take on it than I
1:31:40
did in the 90s. It's a solid, if fairly
1:31:43
repetitive, season. There's 2SS in bass under siege.
1:31:46
None of us have gone bass under siege, haven't we?
1:31:50
Well, you have now thank. You yeah friend setter.
1:31:54
Shall we, shall we go round again?
1:31:57
Elliot, do you want to hit us with your your next choice?
1:32:00
I'll tell you what we'll talk about one that I think is
1:32:02
interesting that I have got loads of notes for, which is
1:32:07
Fury from the Deep and why I think it should be sent to the
1:32:11
Deep controversial. I think.
1:32:20
I think Fury from the deep again is a really, really interesting
1:32:24
premise that just kind of suffers from being another word.
1:32:29
I'm series of words I'm not going to say because I don't
1:32:31
want to keep piercing in a season full of them.
1:32:35
I think for me the big problem with Fury from the Deep is that
1:32:37
I I went into it first time watching the animation and I'd
1:32:43
heard mixed things about the animation, but I'd heard really
1:32:45
good things about the story and I just watched it and it kind of
1:32:48
underwhelmed me and it felt like it was lacking atmosphere.
1:32:51
This time I thought, I'm going to watch the telesnap to see if
1:32:54
there's maybe some sort of atmosphere on the soundtrack
1:32:57
that I'm missing. And I definitely think I enjoyed
1:32:59
it more, but I still think I just struggled to take it
1:33:03
seriously enough. And I think it's something you
1:33:07
could say most, I think missing 60 stories.
1:33:08
But it's one of those ones where I think if it came back, I would
1:33:11
probably really enjoy it. But I've kind of got to take it
1:33:14
in the form in which it exists, which is kind of boring.
1:33:17
Teller Snaps or an even worse animation in my opinion.
1:33:23
I mean, the first thing I was going to say and then I kind of
1:33:26
had to correct myself was that I felt really, really sorry for
1:33:28
Deborah Watling being on that very cold looking beach in what
1:33:31
was quite a short dress. But that I saw the camera.
1:33:34
The telesnap kind of then appeared with trout and
1:33:37
hindsight. Next I remembered that of course
1:33:39
for Fraser Hines also wearing a kilt.
1:33:40
So, you know, she's so, you know, they're both suffering on
1:33:44
that beach. But yeah, I don't.
1:33:47
I bawled it out to Doctor Who and his eligible bachelor friend
1:33:50
fight seafoam in a boring base. They've.
1:33:55
It's. Yeah.
1:33:57
It's it's just one that doesn't interest me, I think in a sort
1:34:02
of season that doesn't do Victoria Justice, in a season
1:34:04
where she deserves better because I don't actually hate
1:34:08
Victoria, really. I think she's not given much to
1:34:10
do. But I actually quite I don't
1:34:13
mind her as the companion. And I actually feel that her
1:34:16
chemistry with Jamie is often quite sweet, except for kind of
1:34:18
the occasional time where he's quite crudely sexist about her.
1:34:23
But I mean, she really, I kind of forget that she's in this
1:34:26
story until she well, she doesn't even decide that she
1:34:30
wants to leave. The doctor tells her that she
1:34:33
wants to leave. And she kind of passively is
1:34:35
just like, yeah, I suppose I do. But I think her and her and
1:34:39
Jamie have a nice kind of like reckoning together at the end.
1:34:44
And but other than that, I don't think it's got much going for
1:34:48
it. The the idea of sentient weed is
1:34:53
quite fun, but, and I can't remember the fellow's name so I
1:34:56
apologise, but sort of I think it's Robson when he's covered in
1:34:59
seaweed and he's kind of going to touch the helicopter
1:35:03
controls. They have close-ups of his
1:35:04
hands. I mean, it looks like Worzel
1:35:06
garbage. It's like fur stuck up his up
1:35:11
his shirtsleeves. But yeah, this is I don't, it's
1:35:14
one that I feel bad that I don't like because I think it's got
1:35:17
stuff in it that I would enjoy. It's not a monster of the week.
1:35:21
It is something very peculiar and very strange, and it should
1:35:25
be scary and atmospheric, but I kind of have to take it on the
1:35:27
face value of stuff that exists, and I think that it doesn't ever
1:35:31
actually do anything particularly interesting.
1:35:33
So I'm going to be in fury from the deep.
1:35:36
Elliot Heydoke is coming for you, all right?
1:35:38
He loves this one. You are right.
1:35:41
Patrick Trattan can't wait to get rid of Victoria.
1:35:44
And the doctor's like, oh, we must make let her make up her
1:35:47
own mind. He's not begging her to stay.
1:35:49
Yeah, she's like, oh, I might go.
1:35:50
You probably shouldn't. Missus Harris.
1:35:51
Missus Harris. He's just put £5,000,000 in a
1:35:55
bank account and saying look, I know she's a whiny, whiny bitch,
1:35:58
but will you take her off my hands?
1:36:00
Where's he got that money from? Oh, Martha, the mechanical maid.
1:36:03
Of course he. Does he's just like, right?
1:36:05
Come on. Yeah, Let's leave.
1:36:06
And she didn't say. Victoria doesn't even say
1:36:08
anything. He's just like, oh, but you
1:36:09
don't want to though, do you? Well, no.
1:36:11
Maybe. No, no.
1:36:12
You don't trust it. I know what's good for you.
1:36:14
You don't want to. You don't want to come with.
1:36:15
You know why? It's because they they brought
1:36:17
Wendy Pabri into the bar during the rehearsals of this one.
1:36:20
He's gone. Oh, good.
1:36:23
Oh, Jamie. Goodbye, Debbie.
1:36:24
Off you go. Oh shit.
1:36:28
Place to leave her as well. Sorry, just what a horrible
1:36:31
terrible. 19. The 1970s.
1:36:34
Oh yeah. I thought it was set in 1998.
1:36:39
Well, as Mark Platt tells us in the direct to HMV or wherever it
1:36:45
was video downtime, she had a bloody miserable time after
1:36:48
this. That's it.
1:36:49
Yeah. But we'll get to downtime later.
1:36:51
I don't worry. I'm not putting trying to put
1:36:52
that through as well the season either.
1:36:54
But so should we go to the comments, surprisingly.
1:37:00
Few on this one actually compared to some of the others.
1:37:04
So do you want to go first chair?
1:37:06
Yeah, OK. Kieran Evans says it sounds like
1:37:09
cracking, and the snatches of surviving footage suggests the
1:37:13
direction was up there. An interesting companion
1:37:15
departure which given time, which is given time.
1:37:18
Something rare for the show. Paul Cressa We were always told
1:37:22
that this one was one of the all time classics, but it's but it
1:37:27
is just more of the same and if I watch it in context I've got a
1:37:31
bit bored of the format by this point.
1:37:33
However, judging from the existing clips, I suspect my
1:37:36
opinion it would improve if it were ever found.
1:37:39
I've got Paul Quinn's It's part luck as to who gets him, you
1:37:42
know right? Does the seaweed in Fury look
1:37:45
like tentacles? I can't tell from the telly
1:37:47
snaps on the BB CS website. Tentacles are interesting.
1:37:51
Not in a Japanese tentacle porn way.
1:37:54
What does that mean? I know we shouldn't kink shame,
1:37:57
but that's very niche. But in terms of horror and the
1:38:00
uncanny, Hodgson's House on the Borderland is meant to be the
1:38:04
first horror to feature tentacles.
1:38:06
But I wonder if the seaweed, the foam, the that we see in Fury is
1:38:11
an updating and echo of the type of thing found in some of Mr.
1:38:14
James''s work. Fury sits well alongside 19th
1:38:19
stroke early 20th century horror tales.
1:38:22
Paul Quinn should write a black archive show.
1:38:28
Jay Shawery. Fury from the Deep is a story I
1:38:30
really wish it had survived the archive perch.
1:38:33
The census snippets of Oak and Quill gassing Maggie Harris is
1:38:36
properly terrifying and a tantalizing glimpse into Hugh
1:38:40
David's direction. Daniel Knight says Fury's an odd
1:38:43
one that sounds great but a bit slow in places.
1:38:46
Robson, great shouting. I'm in charge like a demented
1:38:49
Bruce Forsythe. But Megan Jones is fab.
1:38:51
But Deborah Watling gets a good departure.
1:38:53
See you through the story. So we have quite an emotional
1:38:56
end with this Doctor showing he's upset at Jamie.
1:38:59
Luke Sims Jenkins would have been shorter if Robson had done
1:39:03
us a favour and knocked himself out.
1:39:05
Characters like this hold up stories, call them Paddingtons.
1:39:09
At least Victoria is gone. Oh, I've got another one of
1:39:12
Jason Thompson's essays here. Hold on to your house,
1:39:15
everybody. Fury is one that I always find a
1:39:17
slog to get through, unlike your comments.
1:39:20
Jason. Again, maybe.
1:39:21
No, I didn't mean I did. Really.
1:39:23
Jason, please keep sending them in again.
1:39:26
Maybe if we still have the visuals it would carry it.
1:39:28
Robson is the worst cranky bass commander ever.
1:39:31
When he screams I'm in charge like some impotent bully even
1:39:35
before he gets influenced by the monsters.
1:39:37
This. That should see him removed.
1:39:39
Megan Jones is wonderful though. Oak and Quill are creepy, even
1:39:42
if they don't make sense in the story.
1:39:45
Victoria's departure is one of the best the series has given
1:39:47
us, being seeded early on and having half the final episode
1:39:50
devoted to it. Her last scene with Jamie is
1:39:53
heartbreaking. Michael Storm When I listen to
1:39:56
the BBC audio with the narration written by Saywood, I thought
1:40:00
the story was a bit of a mess and slightly confusing.
1:40:03
However, having seen the animation, it's all flows a lot
1:40:06
better and I see why it has its reputation.
1:40:09
Victoria's departure is well done.
1:40:12
And finally, James Harwin Bennett.
1:40:15
A few weird plot holes, but mostly damn fun fun.
1:40:20
There's no fun in this. Probably it's very serious,
1:40:23
probably the second best of the season after Enemy.
1:40:26
Ending the story after 5.5 episodes to give Victoria a
1:40:29
proper send off is lovely. I've got the head cannon for the
1:40:33
Weeds origin too, which tells us, but it doesn't tell us what
1:40:37
it is. Keep.
1:40:39
Well, so a bit of a mixed bag there from what was once lauded
1:40:43
as an all time classic. I think I'm going to go next on
1:40:46
this one. Lots and lots of.
1:40:49
Shouty men. That's what I get from this
1:40:52
story. It's a lot of shouty men.
1:40:56
One guy screaming about being the boss, the other one
1:40:59
screaming about his wife. But my wife.
1:41:01
My wife. Is ill.
1:41:02
I wish the bitch had died. You've got like I don't
1:41:06
understand the stories reputation.
1:41:08
It has 0 tension until they the heartbeat starts.
1:41:12
It is like wading through treacle and then the heartbeat
1:41:16
starts and all of a sudden you're like and you're like.
1:41:19
OK, Heartbeat starts about 3 scenes in.
1:41:21
No, but it happens about three times an episode, and those are
1:41:25
the only tense bits. The rest, it's just lots of
1:41:27
shouty men and two old queers with their mouths open who are
1:41:31
supposed to be terrifying monsters.
1:41:34
They just like the survive What? That's this.
1:41:37
Cool. Lots of shouty men and two old
1:41:39
queers. Well.
1:41:40
Yeah, exactly. I've been to the Vauxhall
1:41:43
Tavern. Clint's a better angry leader.
1:41:49
The Doctor finds the solution halfway through episode 3 but
1:41:52
has to go. Oh, I wonder why that happens.
1:41:54
I won't pay attention to that because there's another three
1:41:56
episodes to fill. And come on, creatures killed by
1:42:00
sound like I get, you know, HG Wells does rainwater or the
1:42:05
Triffids do rain, Whoever see water.
1:42:07
I can't remember, but it's the 1960s.
1:42:10
We must have come along somewhere in in sort of
1:42:13
storytelling and science fiction by this point.
1:42:15
Like it's such a lazy the ending, like there was just not
1:42:19
enough plot. The animation does what it can
1:42:21
to spruce up this absolute Turkey of a story.
1:42:24
I think if it was edited down to an hour by Benjamin Cook, it'd
1:42:29
be just about tolerable. But this is this is a bit of a
1:42:32
Turkey for. Me.
1:42:33
Are you getting a backhander from Benjamin Cook?
1:42:35
That's the second time you've thrown work his way.
1:42:37
He's in the other room. Oh, fair enough.
1:42:40
He's the one that bought me my yoghurts.
1:42:44
So yeah, I'm bidding it. Don't like it then, eh?
1:42:46
No, I there are things to there are some tense moments when that
1:42:50
heartbeat starts up, but the animation recognizes its flaws
1:42:54
and goes. We've got to make the helicopter
1:42:56
sequence more interesting because we've already done it at
1:42:58
Enemy of the World and actually it's just flying around the sea.
1:43:03
We've got to make the monster. There's nothing terrifying about
1:43:06
foam and seaweed. It just like the surviving
1:43:09
footage of the foam and seaweed looks shit.
1:43:11
So we you know, it just has to look better on animation for
1:43:15
they do all that cool stuff with Harris and stuff and not Harris
1:43:18
Robson and, you know, make him look more of a monster and all
1:43:21
that stuff. But all this is is a fucking
1:43:24
phone party and an under eighteens discos when the
1:43:27
headteachers wading in and go stop having fun.
1:43:30
I'm in charge here. Bin it, bin it, bin it.
1:43:34
Michael Mills. You better take some, you know,
1:43:37
blood pressure tablets you're getting very excitable over in
1:43:40
the. Corner.
1:43:40
I'm very excited. Yeah, please go to Michael.
1:43:44
I've got a feeling, you know, that he might have a different
1:43:46
opinion. Well, as I mentioned at the
1:43:49
start of the episode, when I first got into Doctor Who
1:43:53
properly sort of 2002 thousand and one, this might have been
1:43:58
the very first Patrick Troughton story that I encountered in any
1:44:02
form. Where catching gauge of the
1:44:03
story because it was a one of the photo novels on the BBC I
1:44:06
site remember where you could click and click and click and
1:44:09
click and work your way through the telesnaps and the and
1:44:12
occasionally listen to a bit of audio that was, you know, not
1:44:17
not terribly good quality. And the received wisdom at the
1:44:19
time was that this was the scariest Doctor Who story of all
1:44:24
time. That the feeling seemed to be
1:44:27
that if this were ever recovered and you could actually watch it,
1:44:30
we would all literally die because it would be that scary.
1:44:34
And on the evidence of what was provided at the time, some rough
1:44:39
photos, almost almost vaguely found footage, and the well
1:44:43
chosen clips of all the scariest bits with the heartbeat, it did
1:44:46
seem absolutely Ruddy terrifying.
1:44:49
And for that reason, when I when I got to this a few from the
1:44:51
deep in re watching for this episode, I made the decision not
1:44:55
to watch the animated version because I thought it wouldn't
1:44:58
serve it well and I listened to the audio narration instead.
1:45:02
And I have to say it, but Dylan is right that there are there
1:45:08
are bits of it where it is. I rest my case.
1:45:12
Misses, Misses Harris returns to the married quarters, which is,
1:45:16
you know, not, not not too terrifying.
1:45:18
But in amongst all of that, some of the most, let's be honest,
1:45:23
most Doctor Who cliffhangers aren't scary.
1:45:26
For all that we want to say this, they're just not.
1:45:29
But in here you've got at least two genuine chilling bits.
1:45:33
The bit where they're looking down the Impala shaft and you
1:45:35
start to get that heartbeat. There's something down there
1:45:40
that is very scary. And the end of Is it episode 3
1:45:43
where? Fucking hell, her walking into
1:45:46
the sea. Her walking into the sea with
1:45:48
him, just watching her go with that soundscape of the the
1:45:52
heartbeat and the she. Goes all the way as well.
1:45:55
And she goes, yeah, right under the water.
1:45:57
With the, with the musics, the strange earring is, is still
1:46:01
probably for me what the single scariest moment in all of all of
1:46:05
Doctor Who. And I think if I'd seen seen
1:46:06
that when I was eight years old, I, I, I would have died or not
1:46:10
slept, you know, whichever is worse.
1:46:14
That said, I do think all of that does lead me to wonder, is
1:46:18
it actually, dare we say, you know, we've said enemy of the
1:46:21
world really benefited from being rediscovered.
1:46:23
Maybe we'd be able to see a bit more in some of the other
1:46:25
episodes that came back. And is Fury from the Deep maybe
1:46:29
one that's better off lost in its current form?
1:46:31
Because that soundscape is so terrifying.
1:46:35
I worry that from some of those clips the, you know, the the
1:46:39
domestic side of it will not be realized as terrifyingly as some
1:46:44
of those other bits. Are you mad?
1:46:46
The overlapping mouths of oak and quill, the darkness when
1:46:50
they're down in the impeller shaft and the foams rising up.
1:46:54
I think this was directed to the fucking Hill, this story.
1:46:57
Maybe, maybe this is only a suspicion.
1:46:59
One thing I will say though, and this is a slight creeping war I
1:47:01
have is said that the Ice Warriors is a sort of, you know,
1:47:04
glimpse ahead of where Doctor Who would go is fury from the
1:47:08
deep. Our first, and I hate to say it,
1:47:11
industrial sci-fi episode of Doctor Who.
1:47:14
You know, like the state. You know, it would absolutely
1:47:17
fit if someone said get out of there Jefferson at some point in
1:47:20
this in this episode, and we all know that industrial ones are
1:47:23
the worst of anything. Doctor Who episodes, Tomb Raider
1:47:26
levels, Crystal Maze zones every single time.
1:47:29
Types of metal music. Types of metal music.
1:47:33
But but I do want to give a little, you know, do you want to
1:47:37
mark Victoria's departure because she's probably the first
1:47:40
companion since Ian and Barbara who gets who isn't just sort of
1:47:44
kicked out at the end for all that it is, shall we say in
1:47:47
business terms and managed exit. They do start laying in early on
1:47:52
that, you know, does it always have to be like I'm getting a
1:47:55
bit time, you know, the and having watched all of these
1:47:57
episodes in order as as we've said, whereas Victoria just
1:48:01
spends a lot of it having a horrible time and crying.
1:48:03
You do sort of believe her at that point.
1:48:05
You've had an absolutely miserable time since you joined
1:48:08
this TARDIS slash. Probably would have gone at the
1:48:11
end of Web Affair though. You know, that was probably her
1:48:15
scariest story than in those tunnels.
1:48:18
There's there's a it's an interesting arc, isn't it, that
1:48:20
doing the companion that sort of couldn't, which is what RTD does
1:48:24
with Adam and he's written purposely as this dislikable
1:48:28
character and everybody went well, I don't like him.
1:48:30
He's shit. And it's like you're not
1:48:32
supposed to like him. And I'm not saying you're not
1:48:35
supposed to like Victoria, but it's this, it's quite
1:48:39
interesting that you it gets repetitive throughout the season
1:48:43
that she's just not very good. And it's like, I think RTD was
1:48:48
right to do it over sort of two stories, whereas here it's done
1:48:51
over a season and it gets very grating even if the pay off, as
1:48:54
you say, her departure is well seeded.
1:48:56
There is a peak in Tomb of the Cybermen.
1:48:59
There is a peek into what Victoria could have been.
1:49:02
There's a bit where she's sort of flirting and patronizing
1:49:05
Captain Hopper. She picks up a gun and shoots
1:49:07
the cyber mat, and she's actually pretty damn competent
1:49:10
in that story. And I'm like, you know, maybe
1:49:13
the Ryan did let her down a bit because we're the right writers.
1:49:17
She's introduced as sort of a, you almost want to say father's
1:49:20
apprentice. And that is touched on every now
1:49:22
and again where she shows little bits of scientific understanding
1:49:24
that she might have just not been trained, but picked up from
1:49:27
being around someone who talked about this sort of all the all
1:49:30
the time. And there is a sort of version
1:49:32
of it where you can have the doctor kind of realizing that
1:49:35
and continuing that and bringing that out of her.
1:49:37
But the season is nowhere near doing that.
1:49:40
But also problematic. Michael, do you remember that
1:49:42
line in the Ice Warriors? Oh no, not Africa.
1:49:46
Jesus Christ, that's a really bad luck.
1:49:50
Yeah. Although probably accurate for
1:49:53
when she's supposed to come from, yeah.
1:49:57
For more about Victoria Waterfield and the thoughts of
1:50:00
Empire, you can read Combat Rock by Mick Lewis and listen to the
1:50:04
Doctor Who Too Hot for TV episode on that.
1:50:07
Draped in viscera. Do you have more to say,
1:50:10
Michael? Ohh, well it only that occurs to
1:50:13
me. As we're speaking.
1:50:14
We talk about the soundscape. It probably makes sense because
1:50:17
the the bit of trivia you have to mention every time you talk
1:50:20
about food from the deep is the fact that it was originally a
1:50:22
Hartnell episode. Hartnell pitch that didn't get
1:50:24
picked up, which was then turned into the radio play, the slide,
1:50:27
which I did listen to many years ago.
1:50:29
And I do wonder if that's why some it makes sense then that
1:50:33
there is such a strong soundscape to this that it is an
1:50:35
idea that the big pimp that have thought about in audio terms.
1:50:40
And then he uses it again on the pescatons, of course.
1:50:43
To to it reaches its zenith as an idea in the pescatons.
1:50:47
Yeah, exactly. Hello.
1:50:48
Dolly. Not quite.
1:50:52
Yeah. So Joe, well, I'm not sure if
1:50:54
Michael's keeping it or been in. It.
1:50:56
Oh yeah, of course. I am, I am, I'm, I'm, I'm
1:51:00
keeping it. I'm keeping it because I, I
1:51:02
really enjoyed actually feeling a little as I listened to it on
1:51:05
the tube, enjoying that sort of visceral thrill of at the end of
1:51:08
episode 2 of just how scary Doctor Who can actually be.
1:51:12
And that was so well done. I'm willing to forgive any
1:51:14
flaws. Finally, Mills, you give me
1:51:17
power. Joe Ford, is there a throbbing
1:51:20
in your impeller shaft? Frequently when you're around.
1:51:24
It's another one I was a bit on the fence with actually, because
1:51:28
I think it does come across as a very realistic setting.
1:51:32
But realistic generally means boring.
1:51:35
And you are right, there are lots of boring men standing
1:51:38
around arguing about pipes in this story, which doesn't
1:51:41
interest me at all. And I think Victor Madden does
1:51:45
give a strong performance as Robson.
1:51:48
He's so uncooperative, it becomes annoying very fast.
1:51:52
In this story, you just wanted to shut up and lie down.
1:51:54
Eventually he does, and it's very refreshing.
1:51:58
And I think we're at the point now where the 6th episode format
1:52:01
for the season has just been stretched beyond any credulity.
1:52:05
It does attempt to sort of up the horror as the story goes on.
1:52:09
But, you know, come Episode 6, the climax of the story, they
1:52:12
have to resort to a comedy helicopter, zoom about in, you
1:52:16
know, around the oil rigs just to sort of kill some time.
1:52:19
Do you think that the reason this season looks so good is
1:52:22
that they've gone for six parters and.
1:52:24
Yeah, that's why they did. It they're stretching the money.
1:52:27
They say with the moon base, they realized when they'd
1:52:29
managed to do that great set in the moon base and analytize it
1:52:32
across all the episodes, they were like, we'll do that again
1:52:36
and we'll do it again and we'll do it again.
1:52:37
But I've heard a theory though, so that they were trying to
1:52:39
appeal to the American market at this point and there was a taste
1:52:45
for formula television. So there was a reason why they
1:52:49
were constantly doing base under siege stories.
1:52:53
Thank you. However, I think Megan Jones is
1:52:56
a very strong, very vivid, no nonsense character.
1:52:58
Another brilliant female character in this.
1:53:01
I think this is the one story all year where Victoria actually
1:53:04
makes sense because she finally says enough.
1:53:07
And actually, I think you've all undersold it.
1:53:09
I think it's seeded really well in this story through a sequence
1:53:12
of very intimate scenes between either Jamie and the Doctor with
1:53:16
Victoria. She expresses how she's not
1:53:19
enjoying this anymore and it's almost too for the kids watching
1:53:23
it to sort of get them used to the fact that she's going, I
1:53:26
think rather than for Victoria herself.
1:53:29
I think there's some really terrific horror moments that
1:53:32
wouldn't be out of place in like Twin Peaks or something like
1:53:36
really weird horror, including that bit where she walks into
1:53:39
the sea. Michael, that that absolutely
1:53:42
would be an episode of Twin Peaks.
1:53:43
Is there something weird like that happening?
1:53:45
And the the bit with Oak and Quill that is so fucking scary.
1:53:50
They're bulging eyes and their mouths as if they're screaming
1:53:54
and the heartbeat going over it. I mean, what the hell did the
1:53:56
kids things watching that at the time?
1:53:59
I think the horror is really well done here and there's a
1:54:01
really good piano score. But when they're down in the
1:54:04
impeller shaft, you're right Michael, this, the soundscape
1:54:07
and the music in this is superb. And the extended coder at the
1:54:11
end of the story as well is really nice because we've done
1:54:14
all of this. We do it every single trouting
1:54:16
story. Oh, where's it gone?
1:54:18
And then they're in the TARDIS going, oh God, it's raining
1:54:20
quick, get in and then they're gone.
1:54:22
Here we hang around for 1015 minutes and it's really nice.
1:54:27
It's really nice. I want to keep it.
1:54:31
I think I want to keep this one. Sorry, Dylan.
1:54:34
Sorry, Elliot. Fury from the deep is going
1:54:38
through Joe Ford. I think you're up next, aren't
1:54:41
you? Yes, hello, Can we talk about
1:54:44
The Wheel in Space please? By David Whittaker What sure can
1:54:49
champion Does the best writer of the season no longer?
1:54:52
I think this is Zoe, A breath of fresh air, isn't she?
1:54:58
Wonderful, Arrogant, funny, annoying and very often right?
1:55:03
Far more engaging than Victoria ever was.
1:55:06
There's a wonderful bit where the Doctor goes, aren't you ever
1:55:09
wrong? And she goes, really, She's
1:55:12
really funny. And there's immediate friction
1:55:16
between her and Jamie, which doesn't really go away.
1:55:18
It gets gentle up, but it's really funny to watch and
1:55:22
competition between her and the Doctor, which you know, in
1:55:24
stories like the Crotons is just gold.
1:55:28
Wendy Padbury is just she's a brilliant actress.
1:55:32
I think she is underrated in in sort of when they you look
1:55:35
across all the companions and Doctor Who and she makes an
1:55:38
immediate impression here. Gemma Corwin, another brilliant
1:55:43
female character in this story, the station's doctor.
1:55:46
But I like the fact that she has a relationship with the
1:55:48
commander in this and that friendship, it allows her to get
1:55:52
through to him when he's being, you know, another twat of a
1:55:55
commander and just getting in everybody's way.
1:55:59
I love the fact she flirts with the doctor as well.
1:56:01
That bit where she goes, I'm so sorry, you're going to have to
1:56:03
stay in bed. And he just goes, oh, good, just
1:56:08
drought a man, no underground. So many families.
1:56:11
And I think she's such a engaging character that her
1:56:16
death in Episode 5, it really hits.
1:56:19
And you trust me, you need something in this story at that
1:56:21
point because it's so boring. And Tanya Leonov, have I told
1:56:27
you about my nose? She's flirty, she's funny.
1:56:33
And she's never really once written as a as a dumb blonde.
1:56:36
She's a properly proactive sort of scientist on that base.
1:56:40
So the women in this. Whitaker writes the women
1:56:42
brilliantly. However, the Cybermen are
1:56:48
hatching out of eggs for some reason, and I still can't figure
1:56:52
out why. I mean, earlier in the season
1:56:54
they're coming out of embryos. What is going on with the
1:56:57
Cybermen this year? Is this the slowest, most
1:57:01
complicated plan known to mankind?
1:57:03
I have watched and listened and read The Wheel in Space.
1:57:08
At least, at least. Twice in each of those formats
1:57:12
and I still don't have a fucking clue what they're trying to do
1:57:15
in this story. Something about taking metal
1:57:19
apart, sending in cyber mats, asteroids.
1:57:23
I have. I don't even know what their
1:57:25
goal is. I have no clue.
1:57:27
It's the worst Cyberman plot ever.
1:57:31
It's very ponderously directed as well.
1:57:33
Tristan Vertical, Is that his name?
1:57:36
His only story? It plods, doesn't it?
1:57:39
This. It really, really plods.
1:57:40
And even the action is very plotty and at this point the
1:57:45
base under siege format is so exhausted it just has got to
1:57:51
stop. I like the ladies, I don't like
1:57:54
the rest. I would absolutely bin this, but
1:57:56
it's over to you. Another another point for the
1:57:59
heterosexual Joe Ford there loving the ladies.
1:58:03
They are great, aren't they? When you were, when you were
1:58:06
listing Zoey's many positive attributes there, I thought, I
1:58:09
was thinking, is he talking about Clara Oswald?
1:58:14
Ohh, do you remember the publicity shots of Wendy Padbury
1:58:17
walking through that quarry with enormous fires around her?
1:58:22
Wonderfully demented. I think we can have more of
1:58:24
those for every companion. It's like a quarry.
1:58:26
It's literally like a like a building site where a demolition
1:58:30
site and we're just gonna walk through there probably be fine.
1:58:32
We'll take a few photos. It's a proper British post war
1:58:36
bomb site isn't it? I think that's what it is.
1:58:37
Like they've not cleared up since the Luftwaffe.
1:58:39
Oh. It's.
1:58:42
Hilarious. This is great.
1:58:43
I want to see, I want to see if the next one is just like, you
1:58:45
know, in an empty little. It's rumoured the companion for
1:58:49
the next season is going to do their publicity stills at
1:58:52
Chernobyl. So.
1:58:56
Well, and just as as my last little defence is, Wendy Pabri
1:58:59
is gorgeous as well. She is gorgeous.
1:59:02
Should we do the comments? Let's do the comments.
1:59:04
Oh, you go first this time, of course.
1:59:07
Where are they? I've lost them.
1:59:09
Oh yes, there we go, James HB says.
1:59:12
A true disaster of science, logic and plot.
1:59:15
Yes, there's lots of positive, positive stuff in there, but
1:59:19
let's face it, the Cybermen's plot is the biggest pile of
1:59:21
bullshit ever. The flapping Cybermen in Part 6
1:59:25
is horrendous and did I mention it makes zero sense?
1:59:29
I like the fashion, but bin the story.
1:59:32
Mark was literally in the kitchen when I was watching
1:59:35
episode 6 and he started walking in like that the way they're
1:59:38
coming in from. Space.
1:59:39
That's just how Mark walks. Yeah, well, fair, Kieran Evans
1:59:44
says. Let's be honest, you can watch
1:59:45
the surviving 2 episodes and not miss much.
1:59:47
It's very slow. I know Terence trims the story
1:59:50
quite well for the novelization, but he still doesn't explain the
1:59:53
bloody plot. Nobody knows.
1:59:55
Nobody knows the plot, Paul Quinn says.
1:59:58
I have a lot of time for Wheel in Space.
2:00:00
He's a madman, I can see. 1. Yeah, true.
2:00:05
I can see why the more scientifically minded dislike
2:00:07
it, but I believe in these characters and their
2:00:10
relationships. Tanya and Leo ring true, as does
2:00:13
Gemma's interaction with Bennett.
2:00:15
In Gemma, we have Troughton's potential romance, like Kamika,
2:00:19
like Doctor Todd. The doctor's reaction to Gemma's
2:00:22
death is fascinating. There's a quality to their
2:00:26
interactions which makes her death tragic, and Zoe is
2:00:30
immediately the new companion. Much better than Victoria.
2:00:34
Good as Watling was, Zoe is far more interesting.
2:00:37
How I love you, Whittaker. Let me count the ways you had to
2:00:41
Paul's then when you had to say good as Watling was.
2:00:46
Paul Cresser More of the same and a bit dull and illogical.
2:00:50
However, I do have a soft spot for this one for some reason I
2:00:53
can't put my finger on. Daniel Knight Will is OK, but
2:00:57
for a logical race, the Cybermen's plan ain't half
2:01:00
convoluted. Some likable characters,
2:01:03
although some of the actors need to sit down and take the weight
2:01:06
off their accents. Papyri is instantly likable as
2:01:09
Zoe. It's a shame they didn't explore
2:01:12
the emotionless side of her character more.
2:01:15
What's the fellow's name from Hell Bent?
2:01:18
You know, the, the the Donald Sumter.
2:01:21
Yeah. Is he blacked up in this?
2:01:22
I think he is. You know, there's a lot of it
2:01:24
going on this season, Jay Chowry says.
2:01:27
Is it Jay Chowry? Yes.
2:01:29
For some reason, Willing Space is one of those stories I always
2:01:31
forget exists, even though it's got side men in and Zoe's debut,
2:01:35
the smiling episode show capable direction from Chris Tristan de
2:01:38
Vercole arm flapping side men aside, and it's too bad he
2:01:43
didn't return to the show. Also, you got Jason Thomason.
2:01:46
Off you go. Jason Thompson will is better
2:01:49
than it's cracked up to be, though some of the accents are
2:01:51
awful. The Cybermen work well as a
2:01:53
creeping menace in the shadows. There aren't any fucking
2:01:56
shadows. That's the problem with this.
2:01:59
Zoe gets a good introduction with the parallels between her
2:02:03
rigorous education and the Cybermen being nicely drawn,
2:02:07
which we'll come to more of in the big in a big finished
2:02:09
trilogy later, but not in this story.
2:02:12
Her wish to Stow away feels right.
2:02:13
The scene where Jarvis takes on a Cyberman and it shoots him
2:02:17
when he's already down is a great show of their strength and
2:02:21
ruthlessness. Don't get me started on the
2:02:23
utter bollocks of their plot to ionize stars and defect deflect
2:02:27
meteors though. And Gemma Colon is absolutely
2:02:30
wonderful. You can just hear him talking
2:02:32
about Kill the Moon, can't you? Yeah, well you will, Luke, since
2:02:37
Jenkins very finely says works for me.
2:02:39
No stank Nuggets here. Then Whitaker takes a tired base
2:02:42
under siege format and fills it with interesting characters.
2:02:45
Jamie is accused of sabotage and he did it.
2:02:49
Excellent. Shall we come to Michael Mills?
2:02:54
Yes. So wheel in space, my daughter
2:02:59
has these Gruffalo biscuits that she sometimes has.
2:03:02
Whenever I give them to her, I always feel a little bit guilty
2:03:05
because I think, oh, she's having biscuits, you know,
2:03:06
that's not grass. Does not good look on the tube,
2:03:08
is it? She's having cut up apple or
2:03:10
something. But she'll be tasty and they'll
2:03:12
be exciting. That'd be nice for her.
2:03:13
And then I actually tried one of them and it just tasted like
2:03:16
air. And there's a little bit of that
2:03:19
to the wheel in space. From the outside.
2:03:21
I go, oh, Cybermen in space. It introduces Zoe.
2:03:25
Look, look at look at that. Look at this cast, look at some
2:03:28
of this model work. That's fantastic.
2:03:30
And then I watch it and there's just nothing there.
2:03:33
There's just, there's nothing that really sticks with me from
2:03:36
it in a really old way. It's sort of just kind of
2:03:40
extruded Doctor Who shaped production with the side men.
2:03:46
The side men's the idea is plot is is impenetrable and and
2:03:50
strange. I do think interestingly, it's
2:03:54
possibly you starting to see creeping in here, something that
2:03:56
we'd also see a bit later in the space parts and definitely
2:03:58
ambassadors of death and the seeds of death as well, which is
2:04:01
that this was the era of Apollo. So a time when, you know, space
2:04:06
travel and spaceflight and all this stuff was, was on the news
2:04:08
all the time. And I think maybe there's a,
2:04:10
there's a sort of attempt here at maybe doing a bit more
2:04:13
realism about engaging with space.
2:04:15
There's all the stuff about how far off course it is and how
2:04:18
long it takes to get between anywhere.
2:04:20
But the problem is, that's quite boring really.
2:04:23
Is space training? Everyone's had space training,
2:04:26
haven't they? Yeah, I think, no, I don't.
2:04:28
No, no, so I, I don't want to keep it.
2:04:32
I think I think it needs to go. I mean, Zoe's great and it's
2:04:34
nice to have her Ted up. And I agree with what you're
2:04:35
saying about some of, you know, some of the cast performances
2:04:37
are, are, are are fun. The one thing I did actually
2:04:40
like this time was I actually quite enjoyed the first episode
2:04:43
because I was watching it. I think it's got this sort of
2:04:46
even by 1968 slightly old fashioned Doctor Who attitude,
2:04:50
you know, David Whitaker's bringing back food machines and
2:04:52
mercury from from the TARDIS and stuff and people sort of
2:04:55
wandering around in the setting trying to work out what it all
2:04:58
is in this light puzzle box atmosphere.
2:05:00
And then you've got this countdown going on that you're
2:05:03
not really sure what it's about. And then you and you've got a
2:05:05
robot that's shuffling about the place.
2:05:06
Now hang on a effing minute. This is wildly Yonder.
2:05:10
What is that? What?
2:05:13
Absolutely. Russell T Davis ice, I see you.
2:05:19
So I, I would like episode 1 to come back, not least because I
2:05:22
want to see that little servo robot shuffling around and just,
2:05:26
you could just say with his Lego hands.
2:05:31
So that aside, no, I can't really keep it.
2:05:34
It's just it feels like at the end of the season they they'd
2:05:37
lost, they'd lost energy and they were just sort of going
2:05:42
there. Go there's another few episodes
2:05:44
of Doctor Who. Please, please can we have a
2:05:46
little break now? But we did get Zoe though.
2:05:50
That's true, and she gets a proper induction, which as I
2:05:53
said, is nice to see. Indeed.
2:05:56
So. In the Bin from Michael Mills
2:05:58
Elliot, what about you? Yeah, I think the the Wheeling
2:06:01
Space is also one that I kind of I also forget about.
2:06:05
And I don't know if that's because also Season 5 has so
2:06:07
much of it spoken for in terms of either animations or episodes
2:06:11
existing. The it's this weird kind of
2:06:13
curiosity at the end of the season that just has nothing
2:06:17
going for it. But I mean it's still pretty
2:06:21
shoddy though anyway, isn't it? Like I I think Wendy peppery is
2:06:26
great and she does liven the episodes up a little bit and I
2:06:31
do like her and Fraser Heinz's chemistry.
2:06:35
I do think it's very weird when Jamie threatens to throw throw
2:06:39
her over his knee and give her a good smacks bottom.
2:06:42
He's very. Ugly in the 60s.
2:06:46
Jamie Jamie goes really up and down to this series of being
2:06:49
sort of quite charming and quite, quite friendly and quite
2:06:52
caring about the the women they come across to being quite
2:06:56
horrendously misogynistic. And that really stuck out to me.
2:07:01
Like I like you say, I know it's the 60s, but it felt really.
2:07:03
And he's a man from, you know, old, old, olden times.
2:07:09
He's from the past. It's another failure of the
2:07:11
script editor that he's not written consistently over the
2:07:13
series. He is just the sexism that Jamie
2:07:17
comes out with in this story and the sexism in general.
2:07:19
I don't think it's consistent necessarily with a lot of the
2:07:22
stuff in this season. Especially considering this was
2:07:25
written by an ex script editor of Doctor Who.
2:07:29
I just think it needs more. It needs more pulp.
2:07:32
Like I agree with Michael, I really like the first episode.
2:07:35
I think it's quite weirdly, quite atmospheric and quite
2:07:38
interesting. And I like you say, I like the
2:07:40
puzzle box. They try to work out what's
2:07:41
going on. Once you start getting into it,
2:07:43
it gets really, really boring. Jamie's sabotaging the laser is
2:07:47
a good bit of drama, but I don't care about why they need to use
2:07:51
the laser. If I hear like the amount of
2:07:52
times Zoe says that a planet or a star is going supernova, we
2:07:56
need the laser. There's no people are just
2:07:58
boringly reciting reasons why we need the laser.
2:08:00
If we could make it exciting, make the audience care, I think
2:08:03
it'd have a lot more going for it.
2:08:07
I'm also confused by Cyberman biology in this whole series.
2:08:11
I won't dwell on it, but yeah, I mean, I wrote down they are
2:08:15
guarded by cling film in their tombs and they birthed from Sax
2:08:19
in this episode. But you know what?
2:08:22
At least I can understand what they're saying.
2:08:24
And at least that's weird, right?
2:08:26
It's something. Yeah, like it.
2:08:27
It's a little bit of intrigue. Why are these weird orbs going
2:08:30
into the ship? Oh, OK, They're birthing
2:08:32
Cybermen. OK, but has there ever been a
2:08:34
Cybermen story with so few actual Cybermen in it?
2:08:38
Like, like operating from the shadows?
2:08:41
Yeah, they just don't, they're they don't do anything.
2:08:44
I mean, I know the Cybermen never have a good plan or their
2:08:46
plans are incoherent, like we're going to strap bombs to people
2:08:48
on a planet and then beam them up to a ship and nonsense.
2:08:52
They're always nonsense. But in this especially, I don't
2:08:55
really actually understand what they were trying to do.
2:08:58
Anytime there's a Cyberman on screen, I just kind of was like,
2:09:01
oh, great, there's a Cyberman. I kind of forgot they were in
2:09:04
this until it ended, but and then I really.
2:09:08
Thinkable isn't it? Because they've got 6 episodes
2:09:10
to tell us what they're doing and they still don't manage it.
2:09:14
And I think there are some really good stories that hold
2:09:17
off on showing you the villains and you kind of get this
2:09:20
suspense. But end of episode 2 they
2:09:22
introduce them and you think, okay, we've got 4 episodes of
2:09:24
Side Men left. I mean, they're not in it for
2:09:27
another. Two and it's the one story where
2:09:30
the Cybermen could be a surprise because it's not called the
2:09:33
Wheel of the Cybermen or something like that.
2:09:35
It's called the Wheel in space. You know there's going to be a
2:09:37
wheel in space. You don't know what's going to
2:09:39
be on it you. Shouldn't.
2:09:40
Lose. Sorry, because on the point you
2:09:42
shouldn't decide that it is a truly terrible title.
2:09:45
Possibly the worst one of the one of the worst titles in all
2:09:48
of Doctor Who. There's no drama in that.
2:09:50
There's a wheel in space. My God.
2:09:54
Mum, Mum, We need to get home in time.
2:09:58
It sounds like a, it sounds like one of those stories from the
2:10:00
First Doctors era that, you know, has individual titles and
2:10:03
they just had to someone, when were they releasing the DVDs was
2:10:06
like, Oh yeah, fuck it, we'll call it the Wheel in Space.
2:10:08
Like, rather than this being an actual sort of, yeah, like, like
2:10:11
script. So am I I don't know.
2:10:13
I just, I want to like it because I like Cybermen, but
2:10:17
it's. Yeah, it ain't very interesting
2:10:21
and I did not enjoy watching it even in it's cool fan done 3D
2:10:26
animation form, which was, I mean genuinely I think a
2:10:29
revelation and probably helped me watch it more than the first
2:10:32
time I did. But no, I would.
2:10:33
I would bend the wheel in space. God bless those people that put
2:10:37
all of their talent and time into.
2:10:39
Britain. Oh, shit's alive.
2:10:41
Bless them. You know what the wheel is like?
2:10:44
It's like a really, really, really, really bad Deep Space 9.
2:10:49
This is why Star Trek and Doctor Who probably shouldn't come
2:10:51
together, because it's just people sitting around on
2:10:53
consoles doing boring sciencey things like they're doing Star
2:10:56
Trek all the time. Plus the Cybermen.
2:10:59
It doesn't really work, although I hear it does work because
2:11:01
Michael Mills and you told me about it in wonderful Star Trek
2:11:05
Doctor Who crossover on one of your episodes.
2:11:07
Indeed, indeed, when I was a young, young boy in the 90s, a
2:11:12
lovely pink VHS arrived at my house that had a picture, a
2:11:17
black and white picture, well pinky red of a Cyberman on it.
2:11:22
And it was called Cybermen the early years hosted by Colin
2:11:26
Baker and it was an access into Doctor Who stories lost a time 2
2:11:33
episodes of the moon base, a clip from 10th Planet.
2:11:38
And there were two episodes of The Wheel in Space and all how
2:11:42
they sung what what mysteries they held Zoe's first appearance
2:11:47
Cybermen in a really cool effect, punching out of an egg.
2:11:52
The spacewalk at the end, which didn't look as shit as it does
2:11:55
now. Lava lamps, these cool cyber
2:11:58
designs, really cool cyber designs.
2:12:00
If I was at home sat behind me would be I have one of the
2:12:03
helmets of those Cybermen because I just think they look
2:12:05
so cool. And that always is where they go
2:12:08
and you know, our ways and all that stuff like they are they
2:12:11
are. It would be creepy if there were
2:12:14
shadows for them to come out of, you know, Cybermen coming out of
2:12:17
shadows in this. And the moon base is something
2:12:19
that comes from the target books, not actually the episodes
2:12:22
themselves. What they do is walk slowly into
2:12:25
shot in an overlit studio and then, you know, you pick up
2:12:30
books and you see a picture of the servo robot and you're like,
2:12:33
oh, that looks interesting. And then so one day I pick up
2:12:37
the audio story and it's just so fucking dull.
2:12:41
Is it? I mean, I don't have too much
2:12:45
more to say than what you guys said.
2:12:47
I I I'd like they've done Jamie dirty with this one.
2:12:51
Like it, it's do you know what it is?
2:12:54
I realized, Michael, do you remember when we covered what
2:12:57
was it not, was it Curse of the Daleks, not the one with Trevor
2:13:01
Martin? What's the other one?
2:13:03
Curse the Daleks. Curse of the Daleks.
2:13:04
You know when we have a trip? Curse of the Daleks and it's
2:13:07
voted by David Whittaker. It's a Doctor stage play from
2:13:10
the 60s. And they land in this future
2:13:13
where they no longer need woman's Lib or feminism and
2:13:17
actually women have all these silly ideas.
2:13:20
I'm starting to think that Whittaker may have been a bit of
2:13:24
a bigot when it came to women. You're mad there are three women
2:13:28
in. This story and all the and all
2:13:30
the men just laugh about how silly they are.
2:13:33
Not Jim McCormick, No way they are.
2:13:36
In fact, she literally deposes the commander at one point in
2:13:39
this story. I don't think Whittaker likes
2:13:42
women. OK, I'm just going to say it
2:13:44
there. I just think Ethan.
2:13:46
Created Zoe Yeah, as a as a. Bland computer lady.
2:13:51
Her personality comes later. Second only to William Mems.
2:13:59
It's all just so on the nose. I don't know what's going on.
2:14:02
Why do they want to destroy this rocket?
2:14:04
The rocket's off course and they're like, oh, well, it might
2:14:06
destroy us somehow. It's like, that makes no sense.
2:14:09
They don't even bother to check there's anybody on board.
2:14:11
They're just going to. Oh, well, it's off.
2:14:13
Good. Everybody must be dead.
2:14:14
That's the only reason something could float in space for this
2:14:17
long. Oh there's some eggs coming.
2:14:20
I mean there's some things coming off the ship that the
2:14:23
ships don't normally do. Or we should destroy it and not
2:14:26
check what these things are. Everybody on that fucking wheel
2:14:30
deserve to get cybernised and to be honest it's a shame that the
2:14:34
Doctor stopped them because they're all cunts.
2:14:37
I don't like this episode. It needs to go in the bin.
2:14:41
The Eric Saywood of the podcasting world.
2:14:45
You've been trying to create massacres in every story.
2:14:48
I just think kill them all. This is another one that can
2:14:54
stay lost. We've got enough of it.
2:14:55
I'll, I'll give you, I'll get. I'll watch episode 1.
2:14:58
It's so like a heart or story. The doctor has a nap for half of
2:15:01
it at the start, you know? Yeah.
2:15:05
At least just get a couple of points for the bit where the
2:15:07
Cyberman attacked that man and he's doing those sort of strange
2:15:10
hammer. I don't know what he's doing
2:15:12
like. And my my favorite line is that
2:15:15
guy goes, he's going to get a Cyberman as well.
2:15:18
We'll see how these creatures like this stuff.
2:15:19
It's like what these creatures, they've just proven how strong
2:15:24
and undefeatable they are. There's a gorgeous moment as
2:15:28
well where Tanya Leonov, Yeah, I think that's her name.
2:15:31
And she's putting on a dreadful accent.
2:15:33
I don't know what it is. And at one point in her Northern
2:15:35
accent kicks in and she goes, what is it?
2:15:38
Please come back. She goes at one point, Yeah.
2:15:42
And nobody's mentioned sexual air supply.
2:15:45
Oh, I thought we'd get through it.
2:15:47
Come on. So wheel in the space, wheel in
2:15:53
space goes in the bin. Oh dear, season 5 ain't doing
2:15:57
too well so far and. Maybe it won't survive we.
2:16:00
Can turn it around with the last two stories.
2:16:02
Well, Michael, do you want to go next?
2:16:07
No, OK. But if it will, if it will help
2:16:09
the format, yes, I'm I'm going to, we've only got 2 left and
2:16:16
I'm going to go for the Tomb of the Cybermen.
2:16:22
OK. And I'm, I'm older than Elliot,
2:16:26
but I'm not quite old enough to remember this.
2:16:27
But a lot of people talk about the fact that in the 80s, when
2:16:31
none of this series existed, Tomb of the Cybermen was the one
2:16:35
that everyone wanted back. It was the lost classic.
2:16:38
And then it came back. And what it stands people like.
2:16:43
Oh yeah, yeah. We get Eve of the Daleks back
2:16:48
one day and there is maybe a little bit of, you know, be
2:16:52
careful what you wish for. A bad looks like a little bit of
2:16:55
you ungrateful shits. Do you know what?
2:16:59
Maybe we've all overestimated how good Doctor Who is and when
2:17:03
we see it. And you?
2:17:05
Podcast. What are we doing with our?
2:17:08
Lives This is This is now a Twin Peaks podcast where we speak
2:17:12
about actually genuinely good television will never happen.
2:17:18
Tomb of the Sidemen, though it it it, it has great fun shoving
2:17:22
the sidemen into the the mummy template, complete with George
2:17:27
Pastel joining from the hammer version of the mummy.
2:17:32
Although you know, we we have to it's another unfortunate,
2:17:35
another episode we have to touch on.
2:17:36
It does carry across some of the racial stereotypes uncritically
2:17:40
from from that template as well. So that that that is a bit of a
2:17:43
problem. I think the designs in general,
2:17:49
the design work on the episode is one of the things that I
2:17:51
think is is very striking about it.
2:17:52
You know, it's very well captured in not only the film
2:17:54
inserts, but also a lot of those, the publicity photos,
2:17:57
which I'm sure was part of the reason that people thought it
2:17:58
would probably look better when it came back.
2:18:02
And I think maybe gave it something of a slightly unearned
2:18:07
reputation. And I think in keeping with a
2:18:11
number of the stories we mentioned already, it is a bit
2:18:14
of a run around. You remember the beginning
2:18:15
because the first couple of episodes, you know, they're
2:18:17
quite good with the first discovering stuff.
2:18:19
But then they're just up and down that ladder, up and down
2:18:21
that ladder, up and down that ladder, camping around waiting
2:18:24
for the bad guys to try and come and get them.
2:18:26
And even worse in the the ending which which completely replaces
2:18:32
resolution with with incident. I mean, I think I genuinely
2:18:36
laughed out loud when they when they turn around at the end of
2:18:38
the cyber controller stood back up and they go, oh God, you
2:18:43
might be jumped there it. Gets a massive zoom when it
2:18:47
stands up, doesn't. It Oh no, not him again.
2:18:53
So I think I think this is where I surprised my surprise myself.
2:18:58
I think I'm going to I think I'm going to bin tomb of the side
2:19:02
men, to be honest. I think it's it's a sad opinion
2:19:07
than some though, but I just think the more I watch it, the
2:19:11
more I'm aware of its flaws, and maybe that's because I always go
2:19:13
into it expecting so much. But the the the the racial
2:19:18
stereotypes, you know, CAF Dant Hoffman, they really did bother
2:19:22
me this time. And there's, there's a lot of
2:19:23
attempts been made to excuse some of that stuff and none of
2:19:25
them, none of them convincing to my mind.
2:19:27
I think the plots, it's a, it's got a really good premise and
2:19:32
then it doesn't have much of A plot after that.
2:19:35
And yeah, I just, I just didn't feel it.
2:19:39
I I think it's a lot of style over substance from being
2:19:42
honest. Well, should we see what our
2:19:44
listeners think of the once heralded classic Tomb of the
2:19:48
Cybermen? Shall I?
2:19:50
Yeah. Shall I put some music
2:19:51
underneath as well? You go.
2:20:02
Nathan Bossumley very succinctly says Tomb of the Side Men is the
2:20:06
most boring story that everyone loves.
2:20:10
Gareth Boli A great story where the Doctor feels like he knows
2:20:14
what is on Telos. That makes it more mysterious
2:20:17
and fascinating. It also makes it weird that the
2:20:21
Doctor would let everybody into the tomb and it's that's
2:20:23
responsible for everyone. 'S manipulative bastard in this,
2:20:26
you know. But more on that laser, Paul
2:20:29
Quinn says the end of Episode 2 aside.
2:20:31
And maybe the memory scene with drought and Watling.
2:20:34
Tomb of the Side Men is intergalactic toss, the absolute
2:20:37
epitome of the memory sheets. This is up there with the Demons
2:20:41
and Genesis as the most overrated stories in Old Who,
2:20:45
but the recovered episodes revealed all the flaws.
2:20:48
All done Tomb 1st and easily best of the season.
2:20:53
Great performances, some great film work and despite being
2:20:56
unpopular, Morris Barry gets some great performances.
2:21:01
Great set pieces like the Cybermen leaving their tombs
2:21:04
makes this a stone cold classic. The Nemesis himself, Michael
2:21:09
Storm, says while it might not have lived up to the legend of
2:21:12
itself, it's a very solid story. Set design and direction are
2:21:16
mostly superb. Trance mischievous Machiavellian
2:21:20
Machinae thank you Michael storm throughout the story are clear
2:21:24
influences on the 7th and 11th doctors or.
2:21:28
Cresser The excitement of this being discovered and released on
2:21:31
VHS so quickly at a time when Doctor Who wasn't quite so
2:21:34
easily accessible is hard to describe, and it didn't
2:21:38
disappoint. It really did feel like a slice
2:21:40
of classic who had returned, and that feeling hasn't diminished
2:21:44
over time. Jay Sharry.
2:21:46
I can still remember the hullabaloo when Tomb was
2:21:48
returned to the archives in 1991.
2:21:51
Even though our Holy Grail of mission stories has turned out
2:21:55
to be a bit of a Loy Hargill, it's still hugely enjoyable
2:21:58
hokum. Shame about the dodgy portrayal
2:22:01
of non Caucasian characters though.
2:22:03
Oh, that's it. That's the whole comment.
2:22:08
Dave Rennie Tomb is a bonafide classic.
2:22:10
Yes, the racism with Toberman is deplorable, but Klieg is a
2:22:13
wonderful villain. The Cybermen are wonderful, the
2:22:16
music is iconic, and Pat Pat Troughton is amazing.
2:22:20
Bravo. I swear I saw a klieg on the
2:22:22
stage at the Christmas panto last year.
2:22:25
Andrew Tomb of the Sidemen is one of my all time favourites.
2:22:28
I remember watching the VHS and feeling the claustrophobic
2:22:31
nature of the tombs. 50 lbs. Kieran Evans a strong start to
2:22:36
the season and probably Victoria's best outing.
2:22:39
Toberman is a problem, as is the general of the ring of non
2:22:43
British slash American characters.
2:22:45
Luke Sims Jenkins. I watched two more VHS,
2:22:48
blissfully unaware it had been missing for 30 years and fast
2:22:51
forwarding the boring old guy at the start.
2:22:54
Who's that? Morris Barry does an intro.
2:22:58
I know it has its problems but it's B movie bliss.
2:23:02
James HB for a story about logic is his utterly illogical, has
2:23:07
massive holes in the plot, accidentally continues the idea
2:23:11
that the Doctor's off screen adventures with the The Doctor
2:23:14
had off screen adventures with the Cybermen before the Doctor
2:23:18
is directly responsible for loads of deaths, terrible
2:23:21
characterization, and is generally crap in.
2:23:24
Dan Hollingsworth so excited when it came out on VHS after
2:23:27
being found some of it's silly but the creative drive behind
2:23:30
making this world look so iconic.
2:23:32
Yes, I've used that word means it's a classic of the Doctor Who
2:23:37
does monster movie genre. Nice Doctor in Victoria chat and
2:23:40
fun Jamie Doctor moments. Daniel Knight Tomb was the Holy
2:23:44
Grail until it was found, and now it's an average slice of Who
2:23:48
scuppered by dodgy racial tropes and dodgy asset designs.
2:23:51
The Cybermen wake up, then just go back to sleep again.
2:23:54
And the kazoo voices are daft, but that scene between Triton
2:23:58
and Watling in episode 3 is an utter delight.
2:24:01
And finally, Jason Thompson, here he is and you know I love
2:24:05
you. Jason Tomb is one of the best
2:24:07
examples of style over substance.
2:24:09
Some superb design, great use of library music, trout and on top
2:24:13
form. And yet it is deeply
2:24:15
problematic. Oh look, the ones with the mid
2:24:18
European actions are evil and a black servant with limited
2:24:21
speech. Really, it's a mess.
2:24:23
But I love it, and the excitement of its turn of its
2:24:26
return was very early in my fandom, so I still get the buzz.
2:24:32
A. Mixed bag there.
2:24:35
I'd like to go next. I've always loved, I've always
2:24:41
loved Tomb of the Cyberman from when I got the video.
2:24:44
I loved the DVD. I loved the vid fi special
2:24:48
edition DVD. I just like.
2:24:50
I thought the Cyberman tomb looked amazing.
2:24:53
I thought the design was great. I thought Trouten was brilliant,
2:24:57
but then I watched it this time. Oh, no, no.
2:25:01
Not only was I bored shitless, I, I saw the problematic
2:25:05
elements properly for the first time.
2:25:08
And, you know, everybody said what we're going to say about
2:25:10
them. So I won't, I won't delve into
2:25:12
them. But I mean, I was particularly
2:25:15
struck by the American guy, you know, who, who just like there's
2:25:21
something so sort of two-dimensional about his
2:25:24
character. And I can't believe they managed
2:25:26
to cast anybody to play that role.
2:25:29
And he does that thing like when he comes into the room and he
2:25:31
goes, oh, we're all going to go back to the rocket, be prepared
2:25:34
to take off. And he just goes, no.
2:25:35
And everyone's like all dramatic pause rather than going guys,
2:25:40
guys, someone's destroyed the rocket, we're fucked.
2:25:43
He just goes no for dramatic. It's like he's a drama queen.
2:25:46
I get it. Who's?
2:25:47
He's not a drama queen. He comes in and goes.
2:25:49
Some fellows balled up the lot. Yeah, him and Bill Filer made a
2:25:54
spin off series, a box set of dodgy Americans.
2:26:00
The Cybermen are so shit in this.
2:26:01
As everybody says, they wake up, they go back to sleep.
2:26:04
Why does Cybermen need power all of a sudden?
2:26:07
They've never like, they don't like, it's a weird thing in this
2:26:10
story that the Cybermen are just like, oh, well, we have to have
2:26:12
a nap and then we test our cyber guns on each other and then we
2:26:15
have to have the recharger thing.
2:26:17
And it's just like none of it makes sense.
2:26:19
And they're just, they're just like, it looks pretty, but it's
2:26:23
not good. All the characters are
2:26:25
two-dimensional. Oh, we're going on a big hunt
2:26:27
for the Cybermen. What should we take?
2:26:29
I know a pen and fucking paper. That's all they've come armed
2:26:32
with. And 50 lbs.
2:26:34
Obviously. It's just like nobody's thought
2:26:38
about what these characters are doing here, what they want,
2:26:41
apart from one of them wants power and thinks Cybermen are
2:26:44
the way to get it. If you're that rich, there's
2:26:46
other ways to get power. Like, it's all very silly, it's
2:26:50
all very illogical, it's all very boring.
2:26:53
It's well designed, but no bin Tomb of the Cybermen, a classic.
2:26:57
It is not. It's a.
2:26:58
Start. I think you don't like Doctor
2:27:00
Who at all, you know. I just said I love the Ice
2:27:03
Warriors. Oh.
2:27:05
That's fair, yeah. And the enemy.
2:27:07
Big Finish, I've done about 3 sequels, The Tomb of the Side
2:27:10
Men at this point and yet they've not.
2:27:12
And yet they've not given us the drunk Cyberman with the Doctor
2:27:16
and Jamie sort of Weekend at Bernie's style knockabout
2:27:19
comedy. Yeah.
2:27:20
So I mean, let's hope that's coming sooner or later.
2:27:25
Let's let's go to Elliot next on this.
2:27:27
This was a very interesting story to reckon with because I
2:27:33
think I held the opinion the well, obviously I'm going to
2:27:38
keep Tomb of the Cybermen because it's it's Tomb of the
2:27:40
Cybermen. And I think a lot of that comes
2:27:43
from it's one of the sort of only black and white episodes.
2:27:46
I think a lot of people who maybe aren't into classic Doctor
2:27:49
Who have ever actually watched. It's one that all of the actors
2:27:52
talk about. Anyone who joins Doctor Who,
2:27:54
they go, oh, watch Tomb of the Cybermen.
2:27:56
Brilliant. Like a rite of passage.
2:27:59
Yeah, and I think it being sort of recovered and released in the
2:28:03
wilderness years give it a lot of yeah, a lot of credence were
2:28:06
kind of people who were into the show during those, I'm sure,
2:28:09
very difficult times. It's funny actually.
2:28:11
I was watching it from the archive video Today News saying
2:28:13
that at a convention the fans got to vote on what story they
2:28:16
wanted most released on VHS and devoted to the side member
2:28:18
because it didn't exist. They gave them Revenge of the
2:28:20
Side Men instead. Be careful what you wish for.
2:28:25
I was. Going to say I doubt that's a
2:28:26
fake, worse than death that is. But I've got it written down as
2:28:33
a keep and I said because it's iconic and it offensive at four
2:28:36
parts. But you know what?
2:28:38
I've I've been swayed. Elliot, No, you should have
2:28:42
helped me first. I'm going to say lots of lovely
2:28:44
things about it. Don't do it.
2:28:46
You've got it written down as a keep, Elliot.
2:28:48
Keep it. Don't listen to these
2:28:50
bullshitters down here. That's why I didn't choose you
2:28:53
next, Joe. Obviously.
2:28:55
There is pieces Elliot the cyber mats 50 lbs.
2:29:00
You see cyber man bashing at the door?
2:29:02
You see, I might have been won over and then you said cyber
2:29:05
mats I hate. Cyber gun that leaves you smoky
2:29:08
holes in people Cyber. Mats God, they sound like
2:29:11
European police cars in this story.
2:29:13
They're really how no one ever notices them coming.
2:29:15
They're really they're they're. Listen to your heart, Ellie.
2:29:19
Listen to your heart. I just think it's quite, it is a
2:29:23
lot of people just sitting around talking about the fact
2:29:25
that below them there's Cybermen.
2:29:27
And I really enjoy and I know it gets a lot upstick because it
2:29:31
was held up as being this great story and people don't see it as
2:29:34
that now. But I really, really love the
2:29:36
10th planet and I love the Cybermen in that story.
2:29:40
And I kind of don't. I don't like that they do get
2:29:43
turned into just mechanical people, not people.
2:29:48
That's the problem. Just robots.
2:29:50
They're robots. They're boring fucking robots
2:29:51
with voices that I can't understand.
2:29:53
And the cyber leader looks like he's got a big fady cock on his
2:29:56
head. It's so I don't know.
2:29:58
That's the. Best thing about him, Ellie?
2:30:00
The biggest Dick heads you're ever going to see in Doctor Who.
2:30:04
I've got a cyber, I've got a cyber leader in right now.
2:30:10
Have you been looking for the ideal sexual comfort?
2:30:13
Vervoid seers and Sontaran toys aren't hitting the spot.
2:30:16
Then you will be like. US.
2:30:20
The cyber leader dildo is just the pre frozen sex toy for you.
2:30:25
He's so veiny and thick you'll always be pleasured.
2:30:29
Excellent. The energy levels are never.
2:30:31
Low. Foam spurs in come shot
2:30:34
guarantee such. A reaction is not a
2:30:37
disadvantage. Christ of 49,000 credits.
2:30:39
Gold coins not accepted. I just, I was just, yeah, struck
2:30:46
by and I realized I'd be really incredibly, incredibly negative
2:30:49
this evening. But I was just shocked by
2:30:51
watching it. And I promise, I really do
2:30:53
actually quite enjoy 60s Doctor Who.
2:30:57
I was just watching it. I was like, I'm really I'm
2:31:00
really, really kind of bored, But obviously things to enjoy
2:31:04
there are I would never say that this is terrible.
2:31:06
And I don't think that actually there's much of this season that
2:31:08
definitely deserves to be jettisoned.
2:31:10
I love they have a homoerotic test your strength scene where
2:31:13
they're trying to get into the tomb.
2:31:14
You know, all the boys try and show off like, you know, I love
2:31:16
stuff like that. The Doctor Jamie hold hands.
2:31:19
It's lovely, but I'm no, I'm going to bin it.
2:31:23
I'm going to. Bin it, sorry.
2:31:26
Excellent, right? It didn't Reese exercising his
2:31:30
hosting powers to get the result he wants.
2:31:33
Joe Ford, go on, tell us you are.
2:31:35
Now definitely the new rod. OK, I'm.
2:31:38
Not the new Rod. I haven't done anything here to
2:31:42
guide anyone or sway anybody's opinions.
2:31:45
I would put this through for one reason.
2:31:47
It's only four fucking episodes long.
2:31:49
Thank God. You know, with four episodes
2:31:52
worth of content. I mean, you're all mad.
2:31:55
This has got some wonderful set pieces in it, and I truly think
2:31:58
that bit where the side man is like bashing at the door is
2:32:01
really well done. That's a properly good action
2:32:04
sequence lesson about the Cyberman sort of game.
2:32:07
Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow me walking around in
2:32:10
the smoke. I'm from Birmingham, we're used
2:32:12
to people speaking like that. Fair enough.
2:32:15
I mean the bit I would put this through just for the bit where
2:32:19
Caftan pulls the lever and Victoria's in that cupboard
2:32:22
going, then the door shuts in her face and then someone lets
2:32:26
her out and then she sneaks across Caftan and pulls the
2:32:29
lever again. I mean, it's just comedy gold.
2:32:31
I think Katha and Klieg are great villains as well.
2:32:33
I think they're really funny amp ridiculous villains.
2:32:37
The whole sequence where Trout is doing that, you know?
2:32:40
Oh, I finally see it your way. Klieg, the great master braid.
2:32:44
Oh no, now I know you're mad. It's good to know you.
2:32:47
Katha and Klieg, I feel like if you went on an all inclusive
2:32:50
holiday to Majorca, they're the couple you get stuck with every
2:32:53
night of the evening entertainment.
2:32:56
I don't have a freeway with them.
2:32:59
What else? And Victoria massively competent
2:33:01
in this Really fun. I've kind of explained why
2:33:03
already. That darkly manipulative Doctor
2:33:06
Who is clearly, clearly getting them down into those tombs.
2:33:10
I think he's just like, he knows there's some bad business down
2:33:13
there. He wants them all down there so
2:33:14
they can all be bumped off and then he can run back to the
2:33:17
TARDIS. What after explanation is there?
2:33:19
Why on Earth is he there's three times where he is directly
2:33:24
responsible for them reaching the next stage of getting down
2:33:27
to the tombs? The end of episode 2 is amazing
2:33:30
the the side men coming to life. Absolutely iconic.
2:33:34
I think the cliffhanger You Belong to Us with the shot of
2:33:37
the side man's face at the end. The end of episode 1's great as
2:33:40
well. That lighting as it goes into
2:33:43
the credits and the face of the side men almost turns into a
2:33:46
skull as it as it sort of goes Into Darkness.
2:33:50
Yeah, I think you're all mad it's going in the bin, but I
2:33:52
think it's great fun. This really fun, really
2:33:55
entertaining in a season that is kind of very serious.
2:33:59
This is fucking ridiculous and I'll put it through on those
2:34:02
levels alone. I will say it's got my favorite
2:34:05
example. I love, I love cheapness.
2:34:07
Doctor Who. I never understand when people
2:34:08
are down on it because I always think it adds to the experience.
2:34:11
And when, when Toberman gets picked up by the by the Cyberlia
2:34:14
and you see the, the harness sticking out of his back, I
2:34:16
mean, that's, that's magical. That's the kind of stuff that I
2:34:18
feel like most people bash it for.
2:34:20
But for me that adds to the experience.
2:34:22
Or even better, even better when Tobe Men then picks up the cyber
2:34:25
leader and it's clearly an empty costume.
2:34:32
Wow, Michael, that was amazing. They learn, though, because in
2:34:37
Wheeling Space, A Cyberman picks up Jarvis Bennett and Tristan de
2:34:42
Verko. I just can't say that name
2:34:44
enough. As he picks him up, the camera
2:34:46
is there just cutting off the harness so you can just see him
2:34:50
in the air. It's it's well done anyway.
2:34:54
Tomb the side man falls. What a catastrophe.
2:34:57
Tomb in the bin? Well, there we go.
2:34:59
So I guess that leaves me with the web of fear.
2:35:03
I'm actually a little gutted that I'm left with the web of
2:35:06
fear because I'm not quite sure where I stand on it.
2:35:09
Well, that's a good place to be there, didn't it?
2:35:11
Leave it for the rest of us to decide.
2:35:12
Well, don't I have to make my? Oh, don't I have to make my
2:35:15
choice before the rest of you? Well, yeah, but your voice don't
2:35:18
count. Have you even listened to any of
2:35:20
these? I.
2:35:21
Don't know. They go on for so long.
2:35:25
I start listening and then, you know, by the end of it I'm sort
2:35:27
of cleaning the kitchen or something.
2:35:29
I listen to them all. Web affair.
2:35:34
I mean, again, a missing classic.
2:35:36
We've been told for many years how great it is and it is great.
2:35:40
It's got some brilliant direction.
2:35:42
Travers is great in it. The Doctor and Jamie, a great
2:35:47
episode one that stuff in the museum is fantastic.
2:35:52
The introduction of the break. He of course, he's not the
2:35:54
character we know he's not fully formed, but you know, it's just
2:35:58
great to see Nicholas Courtney. But episode 1's great.
2:36:05
Episode 2 we Dick about some tunnels.
2:36:07
Episode 3 we Dick about some tunnels.
2:36:10
Episode 4 we go above ground, some great action, and that's
2:36:13
all down to Dougie Campfield. Apparently that was scripted as
2:36:17
a very small sort of scuffle and he turned it into that big
2:36:20
action scene. Episode 5 picking about in some
2:36:23
tunnels. Episode 6 I think is the worst
2:36:26
final episode of the season. Like just all drama, tension and
2:36:30
pace just disappears and it's all resolved so quickly.
2:36:34
I just don't think Houseman and Lincoln quite have what it takes
2:36:37
to do Doctor Who. And you know, I think nobody
2:36:41
will convince me otherwise. That damn time isn't the best
2:36:44
Yeti story. It's better than this Vic.
2:36:53
I just but you know, it it it sort of pushes credibility at
2:36:57
the beginning where the Yeti goes from the old Yeti and
2:37:00
regenerates into a new Yeti. It's like there are only Yeti
2:37:03
because you're up the fucking mountain.
2:37:05
Why not regenerate them into just a robot or something like
2:37:08
that at this point? Or a fucking train if you're
2:37:10
going to take over the underground, a vending machine.
2:37:13
Why can't it be an army of killer vending machines?
2:37:16
Oh, I see building Michael. There's the design work is
2:37:23
lovely. I'm not going to wheel out the
2:37:25
story of getting the BBC, getting a letter and blah, blah,
2:37:28
blah. But you know, everybody's trying
2:37:31
their hardest to to make this thing fantastic.
2:37:34
Except perhaps the script editor and the writers who I feel like
2:37:37
just give up on the final episode.
2:37:40
They just don't seem, and they've kind of go, well, we'll
2:37:42
probably have 1/3 encounter, so we'll probably save the
2:37:45
conclusion to these two middling stories you've already had for
2:37:48
the third encounter that we never get because Hazeman and
2:37:52
Lincoln fall out of the BBC. So yeah, fuck, I'm going to bid
2:37:57
it. Great.
2:37:58
Great target novel, though. Great target novel.
2:38:02
Shall we hear from what? What?
2:38:03
What our audience has to say. Shall I start?
2:38:07
Please do. Jay Showery says we always knew
2:38:09
from part one that the Weber Fear was a classic.
2:38:12
Did we? And the four parts that returned
2:38:14
in 2013 merely confirmed this. Canfield direction, especially
2:38:18
on vacation, is superb, and he conjures a genuine sense of
2:38:21
claustrophobia and paranoia throughout.
2:38:24
All done. Web of Fear has an amazing first
2:38:26
episode which has a horror feel horror film feel to it.
2:38:30
Agreed. However it descends into a
2:38:32
little more than traipsing around tunnels until the end
2:38:34
climax. Great direction and fight scenes
2:38:36
though. That's basically you.
2:38:38
That's what you just said, but a lot more succinctly.
2:38:41
I meander a lot. Oh Quentin, you'd be perfect in
2:38:45
season 5 then. I like the web affair,
2:38:48
obviously. It's brilliantly designed and
2:38:50
directed, but I find it hard to love as much as I think I
2:38:53
should. I'm delighted it was recovered.
2:38:55
It's clearly one of the highlights of the season, but it
2:38:57
doesn't click with me in the way I would expect.
2:39:00
Strange. Michael Storm masterpiece from
2:39:04
start to finish, largely down to Dougie Campfield.
2:39:08
Nice to see one of the leads from The Avengers in a role,
2:39:11
even if he does disappear for half of it.
2:39:14
Pity Silverstein is portrayed as such a stereotype.
2:39:18
Of course, Still, it gave us Chorley, didn't it?
2:39:20
We saw recently in Mutually Assured Destruction from Candy
2:39:24
Jar. Indeed, Charlie's such a great
2:39:26
character. Daniel Knight says what?
2:39:30
Oh hang on, have you just saw that one?
2:39:32
No, you haven't. Wet is probably the best of the
2:39:34
season. Well, it's because everyone's
2:39:36
talking about Douglas Canfield. Direction and pacing thanks to
2:39:39
Douglas Canfield. The set design is ingenious.
2:39:42
The Yeti design makes them far scarier than in Snowmen.
2:39:45
The ending perhaps? Let's sit down.
2:39:47
But unlike Tomb, they slipped up to the hype.
2:39:50
Or presser. Episode 1 was always an absolute
2:39:52
classic episode. I often wondered if the rest of
2:39:55
the story would match up. I wasn't sure when we only had
2:39:58
the soundtrack but matched up to the visuals.
2:40:02
It is incredible. The same for formula as the rest
2:40:04
of the season, but done much but much.
2:40:06
Done so much better Joe. Sure, I love the Whip of Fear.
2:40:10
The underground and its underlying menace is captured
2:40:12
perfectly, and the yetis are great.
2:40:15
And it introduces us to the man, the legend, the later to be
2:40:18
Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart. Here in Evans atmosphere
2:40:22
trademark with great direction from one of the masters.
2:40:25
I do find the pacing goes a little awry in the final few
2:40:29
parts though. Lucy was Jenkins.
2:40:31
I got into Doctor Who thanks to the novelization of Web.
2:40:34
Overjoyed. We've seen most of it now, and
2:40:36
for some reason I always forget who the traitor is.
2:40:40
Lucy McCall, The Web of Fear is a great favorite.
2:40:43
I acknowledge the issues, the stereotyping of Silverstein, for
2:40:46
instance, and the overdone driver, Evans.
2:40:48
I love Yetis down the tube though.
2:40:51
I love though, and how could I? I love Yetis down the tube
2:40:56
though, and how could I not adore a story that introduces
2:41:01
Colonel Lethbridge Stewart? You see why I flag 3 hours in
2:41:05
now, don't you? James Harper and Bennett, a
2:41:07
classic and will forever be the one that introduced the
2:41:10
Brigadier, but it's entirely nonsensical.
2:41:13
Gas fungus, Yeti web in the underground, all to trap the
2:41:17
Doctor. The intelligence is anything but
2:41:19
offering the Doctor 20 minutes to decide to give himself up,
2:41:22
but it's taken over. Travis, the one man who knows
2:41:24
all about the control spheres in the lab and knows they were
2:41:27
working on a way to jam the control spheres, doesn't trash
2:41:30
the lab or leave a guard or anything, but damn, this is
2:41:34
brilliantly directed stuff. Keep it, you blivering Welsh
2:41:37
imbecile. Must be talking about Michael
2:41:39
there. You.
2:41:40
Beg your pardon? If the hat fits, James HB A
2:41:45
perfect example of why invasions on Earth need to be forgotten
2:41:49
about and story set in need to be forgotten about and story set
2:41:54
in the future or on other planets.
2:41:56
Yeah, are you still awake? No, I don't know what I don't
2:42:00
think this is right. It's his fault, not mine.
2:42:03
A perfect example of why invasion on Earth needs to be
2:42:07
forgotten about and story set in the future or on other planets.
2:42:11
Full stop, I'm assuming. That said, Earth.
2:42:13
Makes any sense? I'm assuming he means that
2:42:17
basically story set in the future on other planets should
2:42:19
replace them. Yes, it introduces the Brig, but
2:42:22
the intelligence is senile and the plot ridiculous.
2:42:26
It's less substantial than the web, but keep it because I like
2:42:30
Anne. You know that wasn't James HB.
2:42:33
I've put James HB but he did the comment before.
2:42:37
So whoever you are, unknown person.
2:42:38
Thanks for the comments. All right, that's the loft then.
2:42:42
So I think everybody agrees this is well directed and well
2:42:46
designed. I'm glad I got in there first.
2:42:49
With that original observation, let's come to Elliot.
2:42:56
Yeah, sorry to stick on that same track, but it is it.
2:42:59
Oh, get out of the way. It is incredibly well directed
2:43:02
and incredibly well designed to the point where I just assumed
2:43:05
originally that they were allowed to film in the
2:43:08
underground. Of course, watching it now,
2:43:10
there's some very clanking around on wooden platforms that
2:43:13
you can hear their footsteps echoing that kind of give the
2:43:15
game away. But it looks incredible and it's
2:43:17
dark and it's atmospheric and it's Moody.
2:43:19
I feel like I've been very contrarian this evening.
2:43:22
And you know, I think like most of the stories in the season, it
2:43:24
kind of does go a bit. It goes on a bit and it's, it's
2:43:30
a bit tedious. But you know what?
2:43:32
It's, it's mad. It's completely mad.
2:43:34
And I think it's, I think it's pretty good.
2:43:37
To be fair. I really like it.
2:43:40
I remember the first time watching it knowing that it got
2:43:43
recovered with Enemy of the World and get into episode 3 and
2:43:47
wondering why I was watching Teller snap reconstruction
2:43:53
because I I thought that both of them in their entirety had been
2:43:55
recovered and that really annoyed me.
2:43:57
But this time around, I watched the the wonderful 3D animation
2:44:02
that's available for the first time, and it was not.
2:44:08
It was, you know, for a test. Yeah, fine.
2:44:11
But I actually, I've had a good time watching it.
2:44:15
There's just so much ridiculousness of this.
2:44:17
I don't know. And I don't really know why the
2:44:19
Yeti 5 web guns, and I don't really know why they're doing
2:44:22
half the things that they're doing.
2:44:23
And I don't know why the TARDIS gets covered in a web and I
2:44:26
don't really understand the conclusion.
2:44:27
And I was watching it fully awake and fully conscious, but
2:44:30
I, I had a good time. I think unlike Tim aside men, I
2:44:34
actually think this is is kind of worth its reputation just
2:44:39
because of how well executed it is.
2:44:43
So I I would like to keep the web of fear actually, Michael.
2:44:48
Mills. Yeah, cosigned to excellent,
2:44:53
directed, excellently designed. I do think that, you know,
2:44:59
familiarity can breed contempt, to coin a phrase, and I think
2:45:04
because it is terrible phrase, but one of those kind of iconic
2:45:08
Doc 2 episodes. It's the one with the Yeti in
2:45:10
the underground. I think we do get a bit too
2:45:12
familiar with that. And because no, no, there's a
2:45:14
reason that we all remember that as being brilliant.
2:45:16
There's I think, the vulnerable snowman we gave a deserved
2:45:19
kicking to. But this is a this does the
2:45:23
really nice thing of being a deliberate sequel that does the
2:45:26
Beast Walks Among Us type sequel of, oh, you know, having been
2:45:30
off in that lonely remote location, actually bring it back
2:45:32
to the heart of Britain and Empire and the rest of it.
2:45:35
And I'd like that. I think it works well.
2:45:37
I think the Yeti are a much greater threat here than they
2:45:40
were in the first one. The sets, obviously, as ever
2:45:44
said just, but the sets. The sets, guys, like seriously,
2:45:46
I know we've said it. We can't say enough.
2:45:47
The sets, it's so good that they shot.
2:45:50
They shot that special little trailer with Patrick Trout and
2:45:54
talking to camera just so they can go guys, seriously, look,
2:45:57
the sets, that's so good. Every time I'm on the
2:46:01
underground, Michael, I go, Oh my God, I'm in the web of fear,
2:46:04
knowing full well that was shot in the studio.
2:46:07
I know, I know, right? The 3D animation episode.
2:46:13
I haven't had to watch quite a few animated reconstructions off
2:46:17
the back of this. I actually preferred it in some
2:46:19
ways because I think the slightly kind of marionette,
2:46:22
marionette 2D ones we've had, they just got very boring to
2:46:26
look at. If you treat it as a sequel to
2:46:28
Destiny of the Doctors, the 1990s computer game, then it
2:46:32
works particularly well. I think what I.
2:46:34
Pretty out yourself, Michael is ghastly.
2:46:37
No, because I think what I appreciated about it was that
2:46:40
they were. What I assume anyway is that
2:46:43
they were trying to make an attempt at trying to do
2:46:48
something that would have given more of an impression of what it
2:46:50
would have actually looked like, if that makes sense.
2:46:53
You know, it's trying to replicate camera shots and
2:46:56
movement stuff. It's not successful, but I, and
2:46:59
maybe it's because it's only the one episode.
2:47:01
I, I, I because. We know what it looks like and
2:47:04
it's better than that. Well, yeah, but but you know.
2:47:07
Those balloon men they have in front of like car repair places.
2:47:11
The way they. Look like that.
2:47:14
Everyone looks like one of those.
2:47:17
Look, I'm, I'm of a generation where, you know, I grew up on
2:47:21
original PS1, so I was just having, you know, very happy
2:47:26
flashbacks to it's like, oh, we've hit the cutscene now
2:47:29
between the episodes. But I do also, someone in the
2:47:34
comments said it, it's it is an episode that I do, I do like
2:47:38
rather than love. And I feel like maybe I'm being
2:47:41
a doctor. If I was a good Doctor Who fan,
2:47:43
I would have deeper feelings towards it, which I don't.
2:47:45
But I think keep it. And I think if we're going to
2:47:47
start kicking things out because they're too much of a run
2:47:50
around, then frankly, we should rescore everything except Enemy
2:47:53
of the World. Co signed again.
2:47:56
Director and design. Let's not go there again.
2:47:59
I'm going to put it in the cabinet now.
2:48:01
Three people, well 4/4 of us and everyone in the comments.
2:48:04
This is brilliantly directed and well designed.
2:48:09
I think the attack on Covent Garden, it is one of the best
2:48:12
ever set pieces in Doctor Who. It has a a feeling of
2:48:16
desperation to it that very few set pieces in Doctor Who managed
2:48:21
to reach. I think Andrew Zani gets there
2:48:24
cursive Enrique. But there's a real sense that
2:48:26
they cannot get away. These people are being dragged
2:48:29
to their deaths and those ridiculous costumes are going to
2:48:32
keep coming until every one of them are dead.
2:48:34
He's brilliantly directed that. I think what how they get away
2:48:40
with running around in those tunnels so much is.
2:48:43
I think the characters are great and Travis is competent and
2:48:46
clever and in control. Travis himself is is.
2:48:49
It's a brilliant comic tone from Jack Watling, a mad eccentric.
2:48:53
Chorley is great, weak and frightened.
2:48:55
He's a Weasley reporter. Arnold's interesting stalwart,
2:48:59
brave and the surprise villain at the end.
2:49:02
Evans, the driver, is annoying and silly and selfish.
2:49:06
It's a series of sort of fun, vivid personalities, and we sort
2:49:10
of keep cutting back and forth to them all, and that's what
2:49:12
keeps it rolling along. But let's not forget the imagery
2:49:17
in this episode. There's a bit where the guys
2:49:21
walk into the web and you just hear all of this screaming.
2:49:24
They're wearing gas masks. They do that sort of World War
2:49:26
Two thing, and then they pull them out on a trolley and
2:49:30
they're all covered in that horrible web after like
2:49:32
screaming their heads off. This is proper sort of tea time
2:49:36
terror for kids. Really, really scary.
2:49:38
I think the web rolling out of the underground, it's proper
2:49:43
iconic images. The web guns themselves are such
2:49:46
a shit idea. It's such a crap idea, isn't it?
2:49:49
But the realization of it is sublimely good.
2:49:53
When you see them on location and they fire them and then all
2:49:55
of a sudden everyone's just covered and stuck to the floor.
2:49:58
It's brilliantly done. I think this would have made a
2:50:00
perfect four parter. It's a very good six parter, but
2:50:05
at four parts it would have been near perfect.
2:50:08
It's basically a three hour horror movie.
2:50:11
If you're going to present a three hour horror movie, you
2:50:13
need like enough going on to keep you interested.
2:50:17
This has got a handful of tricks and it repeats them over and
2:50:20
over again. And that's that is why this sort
2:50:24
of falls down a little bit. And I think Dylan's right after
2:50:27
all of the bangs and fireworks. It's got a very anticlimactic
2:50:31
last episode where the doctor just puts on a hat and does
2:50:34
something clever and and that's how we get out of this.
2:50:37
But I I do think Weber Fear is it's nowhere near as good as an
2:50:41
enemy of the world. When the two of them came back
2:50:43
side by side, I watched Enemy straight away and was blown
2:50:47
away. I watched Webber Fear and I was
2:50:49
impressed, but in comparison it is a little more pedestrian in
2:50:54
its plotting and repetitive in its action.
2:50:58
But absolutely keep it in terms of execution.
2:51:01
This might be one of the best directed Doctor Who stories
2:51:03
ever. Excellent.
2:51:04
So we're we're keeping web of fear.
2:51:07
My God, we got to round two in less than 3 hours.
2:51:10
So Enemy of the World, Ice Warriors, Evil of the Daleks,
2:51:14
Fury from the Deep, and Web of Fear all make it through.
2:51:18
That's not a bad average, you know.
2:51:20
Indeed, now we might want to cut this bit, but.
2:51:27
The audio now Dylan is currently tearing up.
2:51:30
This is a paper. That wasn't me farting.
2:51:34
This is what people come to podcast for, isn't it?
2:51:36
It's this sort of stuff. Would anyone care to do some
2:51:40
incidental music from season 5 while we're waiting?
2:51:43
Well, we should do. Well, The web affair we should
2:51:46
do again. The best is.
2:51:56
Surely though. So I wonder the music.
2:52:02
The music from the Bommable Snowman.
2:52:10
You're going to sing then. Oh, no, I was just if we're
2:52:13
including, if we're including people of the Daleks, then it
2:52:15
has to be the the Dalek theme from evil.
2:52:19
Oh yeah, when they're getting bought into the Emperor's.
2:52:23
I thought you were going. To say I thought you say I've
2:52:31
seen for the Daleks has to be paperback writer, it's.
2:52:36
Also, you don't want to hear me singing that.
2:52:40
What? I just folded them up.
2:52:42
Just folded them up. What music is there in Weird in
2:52:48
Space? I think it's just ambient sound,
2:52:49
isn't it? It's that one.
2:52:51
Sandwich they use again in the war games when maybe?
2:52:55
That is why that are so boring. But there's just no great music
2:52:59
in it. I think music does a lot.
2:53:05
Yeah, I I keep thinking, I don't know why I keep thinking about
2:53:09
the music that plays at the end of whatever episode is like
2:53:12
episode 3 or whatever Silurians where that's how they're in
2:53:15
person to that the one that jumped out isn't and it's just
2:53:19
the most horrendous chaotic electronic goes.
2:53:22
Did you ever heard? I love it.
2:53:23
There's something about the Silo Rooms and the Sea Devils that
2:53:26
their music makes them almost unwatchable.
2:53:31
Oh, it's a choice, isn't it? It's a choice.
2:53:33
It's a choice. So I've got a fist full of
2:53:36
paper. I'm shaking her.
2:53:40
They're in the high. White Cap music ago, OK.
2:53:45
Rod had a system for this that was all digital.
2:53:47
Not me. I've I've, I've done this and
2:53:50
we've become more. Ramshackle, but a lot more fun
2:53:53
since then. Well, there we go.
2:53:55
So the first one I'm picking is Evil of the Daleks.
2:54:00
Yes, going against Fury from the.
2:54:09
What's the music from that Bubble, bubble, bubble, bubble?
2:54:14
I don't know. So I'm going evil of the Daleks.
2:54:20
Of course you are, you contrary bugger.
2:54:24
I am going to go for oh, of those two, Yeah.
2:54:27
Evil of the Daleks. I'm going to go for even the
2:54:33
Daleks. Michael Mills, where would you
2:54:36
go? I mean, it's unconscionable
2:54:39
insanity, but obviously the Eve of the Daleks is a better story
2:54:42
than Fury from the D. Excellent.
2:54:45
Nice. It just wins this thing.
2:54:48
For God's sakes, Next up, we've got a web of fear and Ice
2:54:58
Warriors. Oh.
2:55:00
Fucker. Bugger.
2:55:01
I've got this Ice Warriors. I'm going Ice Warriors as well.
2:55:06
Yeah, me too. I think to be logical with
2:55:10
myself, I'd have to say Web of Fear, but honestly, think about
2:55:12
it. Then I was kind of like maybe
2:55:13
Ice Warriors actually, even though I bend it.
2:55:15
Who? Knew peer pressure was.
2:55:17
Going to get such a reappraisal? No, the enemy of the world goes
2:55:26
up against look the Daleks. Enemy of the world, You try, you
2:55:33
fail. So aha, the moon doesn't fall
2:55:36
out of the sky. The enemy of the world, but not
2:55:40
for that reason. One chance, my friend.
2:55:44
You had one chance. Oh, I don't know, because I love
2:55:51
Enemy of the World and it's the story that I championed.
2:55:53
But also, is anything better than Need for the Daleks?
2:55:58
I'm going to, I'm going to say the Enemy of the World just
2:56:00
because it feels disingenuous to put technically a season 4 story
2:56:03
for a right. To I'm going for Enemy of the
2:56:07
World. Thank you for finally crushing
2:56:09
Dylan Reese's dreadful sidebar there, Elliot.
2:56:13
Honestly, blame me. Blame the production team.
2:56:16
I'm not going to lie, I think Eagle would win over any of
2:56:19
these stories. So right, the final showdown,
2:56:23
Enemy of the World and the Ice Warriors.
2:56:28
Well, I mean easily, I know. I think.
2:56:30
Enemy of the world any day. Yeah, I'm, I'm re.
2:56:34
You know what? I'm really proud of the Ice
2:56:36
Warriors for making it this far. But the enemy of the world.
2:56:40
It's it's had a good innings, but yeah, it's got to be enemy
2:56:44
of the world. And I'll say enemy of the world
2:56:46
just for Faria, who is not only a brilliant female character,
2:56:49
but a brilliant female character that is a person of colour in a
2:56:54
dreadfully racist season that manages to be amazing.
2:56:58
Yeah, there. So there we go.
2:57:00
Enemy of the world is victorious, which I think I
2:57:04
think is the right choice. I came in thinking it was going
2:57:06
to be that and to be honest, I would have.
2:57:08
Told you an eye if it wasn't. So we've just wasted the last 3
2:57:11
1/2 hours, that's what. You're why don't you just put up
2:57:13
this? This enemy of the world was the
2:57:16
winner. That's it.
2:57:19
No, because we'll miss all your spectacular rants trying to
2:57:22
murder everybody this season. I was trying to murder anyone.
2:57:25
They're all dead anyway. It was the 60s.
2:57:28
That's true. That is true.
2:57:30
I knew people seemed to enjoy it but I'm I'm glad the one that I
2:57:33
picked to champion is is the winner overall.
2:57:36
That makes me feel happy as a first timer.
2:57:38
It was entirely down to you. I thought there would be more
2:57:41
love to but the sidemen, that's my biggest shock in this
2:57:45
episode. Swings and roundabouts you do
2:57:47
strictly again in another 15 years and it'll come out top,
2:57:50
you know? Well, I'll get some sensible
2:57:52
people on that one, yeah. Yeah, Jeremy Benson.
2:57:57
Well, look, Dylan, you know how we end this.
2:58:00
You've got to go around and ask everybody where they can be
2:58:01
found online and if they have podcasts and things.
2:58:04
I will do that. Well, Elliot, as the newbie and
2:58:08
the one that people here I've probably heard the less least
2:58:11
of, tell the world about you and your podcast.
2:58:14
Where can they find you? You can find the podcast that I
2:58:19
Co host with my honourable friend.
2:58:21
Download the come along pom podcast on Instagram at come
2:58:25
along Pom podcast. That's probably where we're most
2:58:27
active. We do have a TikTok as well
2:58:29
which is the same handle. We've got Patreon people where
2:58:32
we do visual stuff. I know, right?
2:58:34
I've still got a Myspace for my podcast.
2:58:39
So we have a we have a Patreon as well.
2:58:41
So that's the kind of thing people are interested in.
2:58:42
We welcome listener emails and it's great.
2:58:45
It's a really fun community and we love doing it.
2:58:47
But we also did launch recently a second podcast, which is a
2:58:51
film review podcast called Surfing Cinema.
2:58:53
So if you're interested in just movies in general, you can
2:58:56
follow Surfing Cinema podcast on Instagram and also follow us on
2:59:00
TikTok and also spot us on Patreon in the exact same way
2:59:02
you can come along Pond. Elliot, may I ask you a question
2:59:05
about Come Along Pond? Absolutely.
2:59:07
I imagine someone, you know, the people listening to this episode
2:59:10
of Strictly. Come on. *.
2:59:12
Unthinkably. I've never heard your podcast
2:59:14
before. What would be your like right?
2:59:17
Listen to that one first. That's a particularly amazing
2:59:20
episode of Come Along Pod. The honestly, I'm glad you asked
2:59:24
because I'm really bad at plugging our own show and I just
2:59:26
gave people a bunch of names for actually sort of telling anybody
2:59:29
what it was about. So we've got a SEC.
2:59:32
We've got a second chance here. What would be my favorite?
2:59:39
I would say we do a really fun episode.
2:59:42
If you're feeling in a, in a sort of Christmas spirit, we do
2:59:45
an episode where we rank all of the Christmas specials from New
2:59:48
Who, which is just a lot of fun because we get to talk about the
2:59:52
show as a whole as it exists in in New Who format.
2:59:56
You know, we, we get to actually kind of cover everything.
3:00:00
In in the new who's spectrum, which is good because it gives
3:00:03
people kind of an insight into how we might talk about those
3:00:05
seasons going on. But yeah, we're we're a
3:00:08
sometimes commentary, sometimes review, sometimes nothing
3:00:12
podcast that celebrates Doctor Who and all of its kind of weird
3:00:15
queerness. We mostly just talk about
3:00:16
episodes in order and then what we think about them and how gay
3:00:19
or not gay it is. But sometimes we do weird
3:00:22
tangents where we talk about classic Who and sometimes we
3:00:25
talk about things like Joyce of the world.
3:00:28
I don't think there's a podcast around that could, you know,
3:00:31
discuss how straight Doctor Who is?
3:00:33
Because, I mean, it just really isn't.
3:00:35
There is one, but we won't we won't go into.
3:00:39
It it's like, I think it's like the only the only creative like
3:00:43
podcasting space you could step into where being a gay Doctor
3:00:46
Who podcast is not Ausb. What are you saying and why are
3:00:51
you looking at me right now? But yeah though start start
3:00:57
there 7 Cinemark, we're only like 6 episodes in so start from
3:01:00
the start and enjoy if you like movies.
3:01:03
Excellent. So Michael Mills, if people want
3:01:05
to find you, where can they find you?
3:01:07
Michael Tag, the book Club. If you'd like to hear a rare
3:01:11
straight voice in Doctor Who podcasting, you can hear me.
3:01:19
You can hear me back here more regularly on hamps with a blunt
3:01:23
pen knife. But in the the book club strands
3:01:26
where me and someone talk about various books.
3:01:31
So. Oh, it's you, Joe.
3:01:32
Hi, Joe. Yeah, Joe's on that podcast as
3:01:35
well. If you wanted to hear if you if
3:01:37
you didn't hear off Joe on podcast.
3:01:39
Did I tell you your episodes are spectacularly popular?
3:01:43
You know they are. That's it.
3:01:46
That's unbelievable, isn't it? I know, I know, I you know.
3:01:51
It's the discerning audience that you have, you have
3:01:54
cultivated. No, it's because of there's a
3:01:56
rare heterosexual on the bloody podcast.
3:02:00
Everybody comes for the straight cock, that's what they're here
3:02:02
for on. My my calendar is still
3:02:07
available in shops if you if you want to.
3:02:11
Yes, well, we we talk about Doctor Who books past and
3:02:14
present, try and cover as broad a range of publishing as we
3:02:18
possibly can. If you want to check out any
3:02:20
particular episode if you've not heard them before, I think I I'm
3:02:23
still quite proud of the Father Time episode we did.
3:02:27
Dying Days 1 is my favorite. We went in with a political
3:02:32
theme that we abandoned within 10 minutes because I knew
3:02:35
nothing about politics. Yes, and, and, and the more
3:02:40
occasionally. I'm also occasionally to be
3:02:41
heard on Dylan's podcast, Doctor to Too Hot for TV.
3:02:44
But you know what? You know what?
3:02:45
Even if I'm not on it, give it a listen.
3:02:47
Honestly, give the big guy a chance.
3:02:49
There we. Go Dylan, where were you found?
3:02:54
Well, as the the bisexual podcaster, we just, we need a
3:02:57
lesbian in here really, don't we?
3:02:59
There's so many gays about, are there?
3:03:03
We I have a podcast called Doctor Who Too Hot for TV in
3:03:07
which we talk about anything that isn't the television
3:03:10
series, books, audios, give a show, projectors, annual stories
3:03:16
from any era. We just did a 2 hour commentary
3:03:19
on a burning log and if that isn't content I don't know what
3:03:23
the fuck is. But no we to all sorts of
3:03:26
nonsense. It's me occasionally my brother,
3:03:28
but basically it's a different Co host every couple of weeks,
3:03:32
sometimes weekly, sometimes monthly.
3:03:34
Depends what I've got going on in my life.
3:03:36
Joe Ford's been there many times, Michael Mills has been
3:03:38
there many times, Elliot hasn't. But hopefully I can extend the
3:03:41
hand of friendship and get him to come and do a too hot for TV
3:03:44
soon so come check it out. I can also be found on many of
3:03:48
Joe Ford's podcasts and I pop up every now and then on Strangers
3:03:52
in Space where I talk about things tangentially related to
3:03:55
Doctor Who. Basically they get me in for the
3:03:58
sci-fi bits because don't watch anything else.
3:04:01
If he's getting as bad as Cy Heart, this one, he's
3:04:03
everywhere, but we just can't get enough of him.
3:04:06
That's the trouble. There's a lot of me to go
3:04:09
around. Joe, we all want it.
3:04:13
How do we end this thing now, Dylan?
3:04:14
Joe, where? Where do people find you on the
3:04:16
Internet? Oh Jesus Christ, I never shut up
3:04:19
everywhere. I'm taking the whole of February
3:04:22
off just so I can shut my mouth for a month.
3:04:24
You're like Elon Musk. I'd open my Twitter and you're
3:04:27
all I say. I am nothing like Elon Musk.
3:04:30
How dare you and your Islamophobia.
3:04:33
Just to be clear, Joe Ford has no Islamophobia.
3:04:36
And you know I won't count that bit.
3:04:40
Well, quickly, should we run off?
3:04:44
No, you know what we've got to say.
3:04:46
Well, yes, I know exactly what we've got to say, but I thought
3:04:48
this would be yes, we've got to say.
3:04:53
Blessing. Oh God, well done.
3:05:41
The. The.