Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / The Fairy Forest: Nature, Story & Horses in Child Psychotherapy | Krisztina Molnar of ÉletrevaLÓ Gyermekekért Alapítvány, Debrecen, Hungary | EAW 63

Transcript

The Fairy Forest: Nature, Story & Horses in Child Psychotherapy | Krisztina Molnar of ÉletrevaLÓ Gyermekekért Alapítvány, Debrecen, Hungary | EAW 63 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
0:02
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
0:05
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
0:12
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
0:16
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
0:22
It really helps us get this work done.
0:24
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
0:40
com.
0:41
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
0:44
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
0:46
We are in Hungary this week with Krisztina MolnÃ¡r who runs an organization which
0:54
of course in Hungarian has It's called this, 'cause I'm now fluent in Hungarian
1:02
'cause I did this in Google Translate.
1:12
AlapÃtvÃ¡ny.
1:15
Okay, which apparently, with a bit of a play on words, it doesn't really translate
1:21
fully into English, means something along the lines of Child and Horse for Thriving
1:27
and Resource Foundation because there's something a little playful in there.
1:32
And I got a sort of a doubtful nod there from Krisztina MolnÃ¡r, so
1:39
it's something along those lines.
1:41
But the reason I wanted her on the show was she came at the recommendation from
1:45
someone else who's been on this show from Norway, the august and respected Dr.
1:51
Norunn Kogsrud.
1:52
And Norunn is an equine assisted psychotherapist a psychotherapist anyway,
1:59
a doctor an actual medical doctor, a very accomplished dressage rider.
2:03
She's also a Horse Boy practitioner.
2:05
She's also a TTouch practitioner, and she also knows Igala, and she's
2:09
one of these sort of all-round wunderkind superstar type people,
2:13
and is also jolly, jolly cool.
2:16
And she contacted me a year and a half ago or so and said, "I've just been
2:20
in Hungary, and I've met this woman called Krisztina MolnÃ¡r, who has this
2:24
incredible farm out in the east of the country, and Rupert, she's kind of
2:30
doing a lot of the same work that you're doing and getting a lot of the same
2:34
neuroplasticity results in the brain, and you really need to talk to this woman."
2:38
So I'm like, "Norunn, if you tell me I need to talk to somebody,
2:42
then I need to talk to them."
2:43
So we started talking and then we met.
2:47
Krisztina came out to Spain and worked with us and our horses a little bit,
2:51
and I'm about-- This is September 2026.
2:55
I'm about to go out to her place and check it out, and we will do the
3:01
first Horse Boy and other stuff out in Hungary, so that's really exciting.
3:06
But to be perfectly honest, Krisztina would be absolutely fine if she never
3:10
met me because her work is amazing.
3:14
I've looked at it online.
3:16
It's entirely child-led.
3:18
The horses are thriving.
3:19
They're in amazing condition.
3:20
It's one of those gold standards of neuroplasticity and gold
3:24
standards of horsemanship place.
3:25
So I was intrigued, and I was like, "We've gotta have her on the show."
3:29
So without further ado, Krisztina, thank you for coming on.
3:35
Can you tell us who you are, what you do, and why you do it?
3:43
Krisztina Molnar: Thank you for your invitation and extra
3:45
thanks for Maroon connecting us.
3:48
And yeah.
3:49
Basically, I am a clinical psychologist in Hungary with training
3:55
in equine-assisted therapies.
3:57
I am spe- specialized for kids, so most of the time I, I lead the clinical
4:05
therapies for kids and parents.
4:08
And I also have certification in working with the dogs, so I can also include my
4:14
therapy dogs into my therapy sessions.
4:18
And now I, I had a dream and I'm very lucky to be able to live that
4:25
dream, which was, of course, not that easy the way to get there.
4:31
Now I ran a foundation which has been operating for six years now, so it's not
4:38
that old where we we kind of give home to all kind of animal-assisted therapies
4:47
and activities, which includes mostly therapies for with assisted by horses.
4:54
That means we have a classical clinical equine-assisted psychotherapy.
5:01
Then we also provide therapies with the, for the ne- neurodivergent
5:07
population, which is like a little bit like special education, Included
5:14
with the animal-assisted work.
5:17
We also offer family therapies assisted by animals.
5:22
And we also have some very nice and wonderful group therapies for
5:28
children and, and adolescents.
5:30
And we also have, Mm-hmm â¦ how to call it?
5:33
Horse-assisted- Mm, mm â¦ family group therapies for parents,
5:38
which is wonderful to have.
5:41
And of course we we also provide services for adults.
5:45
So if adults are open to animal-assisted work in their own
5:50
self-development, that's also an option.
5:52
This is the therapeutic part of the foundation.
5:57
And since I also have some little background in dressage riding we also
6:03
run a riding school, a little riding school, where children can come to
6:11
And spend their time fully in a joyful way, or the, it's, there's
6:18
also option to work with the, with the international dressage trainers and to
6:25
go on shows which also happens to us.
6:29
And we run a little vaulting team as well.
6:34
So there's also- That's a lot â¦ an option for vaulting.
6:37
That's a lot.
6:38
Yeah, that's a lot.
6:38
Yeah.
6:38
And how many- And at the moment- Go ahead, sorry.
6:41
At the moment, we, we have 14 horses at the farm, and three dogs.
6:48
And
6:48
Rupert Isaacson: it's- Okay.
6:50
Krisztina Molnar: They are all included.
6:52
Rupert Isaacson: Now, I presume you don't do much sleeping.
6:56
Krisztina Molnar: I'm trying to.
6:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
6:58
This is not the kind of work that only one person can do, so you obviously
7:04
must have a team to help with this.
7:07
How do you organize this?
7:09
How do you put this together?
7:11
Who is your team?
7:14
Krisztina Molnar: I am absolutely lucky to have a wonderful team, and actually,
7:19
truth to be told you know, first when I started this foundation, my plan was to
7:25
have four up to six horses where I work.
7:33
And, and I can be perfectly separate in my- â¦ in my fairy forest where I
7:42
live- Ah, yes, yes â¦ with, together with my horses, and, and that's it.
7:45
And and I'm gonna live a very peaceful and quiet life.
7:49
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
7:50
Krisztina Molnar: And that's not what
7:51
Rupert Isaacson: happened.
7:52
Peaceful and quiet.
7:53
Oh, yeah.
7:54
Yeah.
7:54
Yeah,
7:54
Krisztina Molnar: that's what happens
7:55
Rupert Isaacson: when you run an equine-assisted service.
7:56
It's, it's so peaceful- Yeah, but that was not- â¦ and it's so quiet and
7:59
â¦ Krisztina Molnar: that was not originally the plan because then I realized that,
8:04
okay, some children came that they also want to ride, or they wanted an
8:08
option to practice dressage, okay?
8:11
Then we found a way.
8:13
Then a colleague came that, okay, that's a very nice idea.
8:17
What if I, what if I take part in?
8:20
And then parents came that they need help with this and that,
8:24
and we found something else that could help them- Mm â¦ actually.
8:30
And, and once at a time, I realized we have 16 horses and many, many families.
8:38
And you know, everything just just grew around.
8:43
And there's only one point that we all c- Try to keep in focus, and that point is
8:51
that we run something as long as it serves all participants in the story, and it- Mm
8:58
the clients are included, the animals are included, and the therapists are included.
9:04
Mm.
9:05
And if something works like that, then it's gonna work.
9:10
And now it seems that having four horses and doing some clients of my own was not
9:19
the way that serves- Mm â¦ the most, me or the clients or the animals either.
9:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
9:25
No, absolutely.
9:26
So
9:26
Krisztina Molnar: this is how it happened, by accident.
9:29
And
9:29
Rupert Isaacson: you, you talk about a fairy forest, you know.
9:32
I, I'm looking forward to coming out to your fairy forest.
9:35
I'm a great believer in the power of the forest or any nature to reset
9:45
the human organism because obviously that is the environment that our
9:53
organism is supposed to be in.
9:56
And it's very interesting to me, this, this has come up in conversation in
10:00
this podcast a little bit of late.
10:04
It's interesting how in science and in therapy we use expressions like-
10:12
The, the mind body connection or something.
10:16
But we don't say the foot body connection or the nose body connection
10:23
or the arse body connection because your foot and your nose and your arse
10:29
are all clearly part of the body.
10:32
But if we were to do an experiment to see if the mind and the brain are part of the
10:38
body and we separated the brain from the body, it would be a very short experiment
10:44
with a very predictable outcome.
10:47
So it's interesting that even in the scienti- the science which knows full well
10:55
that the brain is part of the organism, we still in therapy ex- seem to express a
11:03
kind of surprise that working in a natural environment would produce better results
11:10
than working in a clinical environment.
11:13
So, but of course it is going to get a better result.
11:16
It will always get a better result because it is where our
11:20
organism is supposed to be.
11:23
And when I'm working in places where almost all of the work is done inside,
11:31
you know, in a indoor arena or in rooms in clinic, in, in clinics, generally you
11:42
just do not see the same positive results that you see when people do it in nature.
11:48
So you are doing it in nature.
11:51
Tell us a little bit about what brought you out of the arena
11:57
and into that, because you're a dressage person, you like arenas.
12:00
You know, dressage people love their arenas, you know, and they really
12:04
wanna stay sucking their thumb in their arena and that forest out
12:08
there is big and bad and full of crazy stuff and my dressage horseâ¦
12:12
So yet there you are doing it all in nature.
12:16
Why?
12:16
What, what changed your perspective?
12:22
Krisztina Molnar: I think I mostly change, or, or I most chose this
12:28
kind of environment because I knew myself enough to know that I need it.
12:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
12:35
Krisztina Molnar: I need that to function the best for me, and I, I
12:40
really need that environment when, when, you know, the day is over or,
12:47
or people are gone, then I need that.
12:51
I needed that environment basically to, to recharge myself-
12:57
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
12:57
â¦ Krisztina Molnar: in, in a bigger scale.
12:59
And what you've just mentioned is very, very interesting, and I totally
13:06
agree with, with the part that in any kind of horse-assisted therapy
13:13
or equine-assisted therapy there's always a factor which comes together
13:19
with the environment of the horse.
13:22
And of- in psychological work, we, we really like to have and work with
13:28
horses who are, who are as health as possible or as healthy as possible
13:34
in in physically and mentally.
13:36
And of course- Mm â¦ if you want a mentally health- healthy horse, you
13:40
need a natural environment for them.
13:43
And this is a factor that affects therapies deeply, even without
13:51
entering a therapy session.
13:54
And that gives gives, as aâ¦
13:57
In my work, that gives me two very important e- experiences.
14:02
One is this is very- That, that can go very, very deep.
14:08
And if something goes very deep, it also has a very big chance to grow, and there's
14:13
also a, a very big chance to fall apart.
14:17
And that being included in, in the forest or being surrounded by nature
14:23
and seeing some deers and foxes on your way, or looking at the small,
14:31
tiny house in the middle of the forest, that, that are so archaic,
14:36
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
14:37
Krisztina Molnar: structures and patterns that can drive anyone
14:42
into very, very deep, very quickly.
14:44
And that can also be kind of a danger because for patients who are who
14:51
cannot use their impulses so nicely as as later on with therapy work, or
15:01
children who are not contained enough and who are overloaded by impulses,
15:08
they are going to be afraid of the forest, and they can fall apart by that.
15:14
And there, itâ¦
15:16
When you have a s- tiny indoor or you have an arena where, you know, there's a
15:21
barrier, a scene barrier which keeps you
15:28
together, that can help.
15:29
And sometimes I, I really experience that children were, who were too too
15:35
much overloaded by impressions and had no really help to, to keep themselves
15:42
safe enough from their own impressions were very afraid of the forest first
15:50
Rupert Isaacson: Did you find that that fear of the forest lasted, or did you
15:54
find that it went away relatively quickly?
15:59
Krisztina Molnar: It, it depended on many different aspects
16:03
Rupert Isaacson: But in general
16:03
Krisztina Molnar: It depend- in general, where the connection and the
16:08
relationship was quiet, easily build up with the- Mm â¦ parents, and then
16:18
with the child, then it went quickly.
16:21
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
16:21
Krisztina Molnar: If not, then it's not.
16:24
Rupert Isaacson: If you find that there were some dangers of working in
16:27
that kind of natural environment yet you still do work in that environment,
16:34
so clearly you feel that those dangers are worth the risk of facing.
16:41
Krisztina Molnar: Sure.
16:41
Rupert Isaacson: Whyâ¦
16:43
Yeah, whatâ¦
16:43
Tell us your reasoning process then of saying, "Well, okay, if there's a
16:48
danger here, why do I still do it?"
16:53
Krisztina Molnar: Because I because I believe that You know, that's the
16:58
â¦ When, when something can go deep, there's also a danger and there's also a chance.
17:04
And the therapist's job is to use that.
17:09
And, you know, if we have to face with some kind of dangers, then we
17:14
would have face it al- also in a room, in a clinical environment.
17:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
17:19
No, I agree.
17:20
It's- And- â¦ it's interesting â¦ Go ahead.
17:22
You go ahead, sorry.
17:23
Krisztina Molnar: A- and, and just to add it, that that's why we also have
17:27
a an arena where we- Mm-hmm â¦ can work, or there's also a small indoor
17:32
where we can work, and there's also an inside place where we can work.
17:35
Right.
17:36
So I can absolutely tune to the psychological need of the kids or
17:42
the client- Mm-hmm â¦ with how to keep him or her absolutely safe, or
17:48
the safe as, as safe as possible.
17:50
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
17:52
You know, it's funny, when we were first working in Texas Texas is a more hostile
17:59
environment in nature than Central Europe.
18:02
So for example, we had many poisonous snakes.
18:06
We had many poisonous plants.
18:10
And we had many poisonous insects.
18:14
And because my family is from Africa, where we have the same thing I know
18:19
that kids learn really fast to organize themselves in these environments,
18:27
provided you make the first contacts with that environment very controlled.
18:35
And I was always surprised at how we just did not have problems with
18:41
this even if I sometimes expected to.
18:45
And interestingly, the only times I really saw real problems were where we did
18:51
actually work in an inside environment.
18:54
Because w- but we designed the geography of the place around the needs of my son,
19:04
and my son was a kid that would run.
19:08
He was what you call a runner.
19:10
You know, I'm sure you call them that in Hungary too.
19:13
And I was like, "Well, you know, how am I gonna, you know, cope with this?"
19:17
And then I realized, ah, well, he tends to run along the
19:23
easiest path of the, of going.
19:27
Like he doesn't run directly into the thick vegetation because it's
19:33
too difficult, and he sort of perceives it as something like a wall.
19:39
So we started to make trails that were circular That would
19:44
come back on themselves.
19:46
So I could literally say to a child, "Okay, you wanna run?
19:49
Run."
19:50
And, "Oh, there you are."
19:52
They would come back to you.
19:54
Or if they wanted to really run away, we could make several
20:00
loops where they could avoid you.
20:04
But on each of those loops, we had a person.
20:07
And then we found, ah, yeah, if the child runs 500 meters like this,
20:14
after that, on a hot day, after that they're like, "Okay, fine.
20:19
I'm done with running."
20:21
And we never had to say, "Don't run."
20:24
Yeah.
20:25
We also found using trampolines was really useful for this because
20:30
you could use a lot of energy, you know, in a, in a safe space.
20:35
And then we did have an arena.
20:37
We had a covered arena, but the sides of our arena were open, so
20:42
you could see into the forest, and you could go into the forest.
20:45
But there were really obvious trails, obvious paths that we knew
20:51
the child would take, and then we could be a little strategic.
20:56
But your point about fear of the natural environment is interesting because my
21:02
family, for many years ran safaris in Zimbabwe and in really wild country.
21:09
And you would be walking, and the elephants are there,
21:12
and the lions are there.
21:13
And obviously you do this with a qualified guide, and there's all
21:18
these safety precautions and so on.
21:19
But nonetheless, you know, you could get stomped by an elephant or you could
21:24
get eaten by a lion, theoretically.
21:28
And we would find that there were some people who would react with
21:34
great fear when they came out And that fear would usually last three days.
21:41
It would be really acute on the second day.
21:44
They would wake up in the middle of the night, they would hear the animal sounds.
21:47
They'd, you know, they wouldn't sleep.
21:50
Theyâ¦
21:50
By day three, a shift would happen.
21:55
By day four, they were deeply into it.
21:59
They were going into their, the resetting of their nervous system.
22:03
They were starting to really get interested in the animal tracks,
22:08
really get interested in the plants, really get interested in the insects,
22:12
really start to look at the detail.
22:15
And by day five they would realize, "Oh shit, I have to go home soon,"
22:20
and they would start to cry.
22:21
And theyâ¦
22:22
It was always the people who had the biggest fear reaction who then became the
22:31
most deeply enchanted by the wilderness.
22:37
Do you find that there's a similar correlation in your clientele, the
22:43
ones who exhibit the most nervousness at the forest then become the
22:49
ones who are often the most forge the deepest relationship with it?
22:55
Krisztina Molnar: I think as a, as a therapist or as a psychologist,
22:58
I think it's, the most important thing is to understand that they
23:02
actually, they are not afraid of of the, of the nature itself.
23:07
It's just a thing where their impulses are projected, and actually they
23:13
are afraid of their own impulses.
23:16
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
23:16
Krisztina Molnar: And if you can contain them, if you mirror them, if
23:21
you comfort them, then it will change.
23:24
But, you know, a big forest is a very nice thing to project
23:29
impulses and unconscious fears.
23:32
Mm.
23:32
And this is why it's so fearful for some.
23:37
But that's not the majority, that's for sure.
23:40
Mm-hmm.
23:40
For the majority, it is it is a really nice place to relax and be be very
23:47
close to themselves in a peaceful way.
23:52
Rupert Isaacson: How typical- Mm â¦ is your place in Hungary?
23:57
Do most equine assisted places work in this way in the forest, or are you
24:03
somewhat of an exception, do you think?
24:08
Krisztina Molnar: That's a good question.
24:11
I I'm just starting to think of of other places that I know and of course they
24:19
are more or less much more natural than, than a normal h- riding school, for
24:24
example, or, or they are very close to forest connection or nature connection.
24:32
But maybe, maybe our farm is a little bit more se-
24:39
into the forest
24:43
And not, and it's quite far away from big roads or big traffic
24:48
connections, so that means only two kilometers from a main road.
24:52
But, you know, it's it's quite a long distance when it's not in 200 meters.
25:00
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
25:01
Is there a strong culture in Hungary of going into the forest, even
25:10
for people who live in cities?
25:14
Krisztina Molnar: I think not really.
25:16
Okay.
25:17
Rupert Isaacson: But
25:17
Krisztina Molnar: actually, I, I don't live in the city anymore, so
25:21
I have no idea about city customs.
25:24
But what I can imagine is that there's a growing population who tries to
25:32
care about themselves more and more.
25:35
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
25:35
Krisztina Molnar: And probably they have more idea about going to the forest
25:40
and connecting with nature, and that's, that has something with biophilia and
25:46
wellbeing and something like that.
25:48
I, I am convinced that there's a, a growing population of that, but I
25:52
don't think that this is a real strong tradition like in Norway, for example.
25:59
Or
25:59
Rupert Isaacson: in Germany, for example.
26:00
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
26:00
Or in Germany, yes.
26:01
Rupert Isaacson: That, because,
26:02
Krisztina Molnar: yeah- It's not that popular.
26:03
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
26:04
That's what I was wondering, 'cause yeah, I lived in Germany, I worked in
26:06
Germany for- Mm-hmm â¦ eight years, and I really appreciated this relationship
26:12
that people had with the forest.
26:14
Even people from the city would take time to go into the forest,
26:18
and the forests often went right up to the border of the city.
26:23
So you could be â¦ Like, if you're in Frankfurt, you can be-
26:26
Mm â¦ out in really deep forest within five minutes, 10 minutes.
26:30
And people really do.
26:32
And in the autumn, people are there looking for mushrooms, and it's
26:36
part of the culture, you know.
26:37
So and I know that other parts of Central Europe you have this.
26:41
So I'm, I'm intrigued to know that that maybe isn't so much the case in Hungary.
26:47
Which is my next question.
26:48
Why do you think that is?
26:50
Is that because of the experience under communism?
26:55
Is that something to do with the post-World War II culture?
27:00
Was it more there before?
27:02
Talk to us a little bit about the mindset of Hungary.
27:06
You know, how people operate there.
27:09
And also, how do they view special needs?
27:12
How do they view mental health traditionally?
27:18
Krisztina Molnar: That's quite a difficult question,
27:20
Rupert Isaacson: Rupert.
27:21
Hmm.
27:22
That's why I asked it.
27:23
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
27:25
Rupert Isaacson: Take your time
27:26
â¦ Krisztina Molnar: I, I think that has something to do with the, the
27:31
communism, that somehow people were
27:34
were kind of, blocked from their own psychological needs, and that was
27:40
adaptive to be cut from your needs- Mm-hmm â¦ because this is how you could survive.
27:46
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
27:47
Krisztina Molnar: In the in the â¦ As far as I am aware of of the official
27:56
results, I think Hungary's mental health is not really good in general.
28:04
And a lot of actions would be needed to maintain it somehow or to get any better.
28:12
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
28:13
Krisztina Molnar: That means I think we â¦ The third reason to, to be incapable
28:21
of work for long run is depression.
28:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
28:26
Krisztina Molnar: Which is quite convincing data of of the
28:30
state of, of people or mental state of people in a country.
28:35
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
28:36
Krisztina Molnar: But that should be checked or double-checked because
28:39
I am not sure if it's a fresh data or not, but as, as long as I am
28:44
there I think that's the case.
28:49
Rupert Isaacson: Now-
28:49
Krisztina Molnar: So-
28:50
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: go ahead, sorry.
28:51
Yeah, I interrupted you.
28:53
Krisztina Molnar: So I think in general
28:56
Hungarian people are not living a quite high level of mental
29:01
ha- health-wise at the moment.
29:04
But there's also definitely a kind of promising projects and promi- promising
29:12
phenomena that, that shows that something is happening in a positive
29:19
way or a positive outcome can happen.
29:22
But we have a long ahead.
29:24
Rupert Isaacson: Well, whatâ¦
29:25
Okay, so we touched a little bit on the experience after the war with communism.
29:30
Yeah â¦ so Hungary was of course a place of high culture leading up to
29:38
World War II, at least in the cities, and produced, you know, all sorts of culture
29:44
and then of course under communism, well, you know, the, it is what it is.
29:51
But of course there was an attempt similar to the attempt in Prague in the 1960s by
29:58
the Hungarians to throw off the Russians, which of course failed in the short term.
30:04
And do you think that that attempt and that failure was what sort of produced
30:13
a, a state of despair to some degree?
30:17
Or do you feel that the mental health issues in Hungary actually
30:22
are independent of that and have their roots in other things?
30:27
What, what's, what's special about Hungarian depression as, as
30:32
opposed to British depression or Norwegian depression, for example?
30:38
What, what's specific to your country and your culture?
30:46
Krisztina Molnar: Probably I don't have enough knowledge about all
30:51
the historical roots for that.
30:54
But I think there's something in it what you're saying that Hungary is
30:59
basically a very, very traumatized nation.
31:02
Mm.
31:02
But, mm, failing by the Russians or being kind of conquered by the Russians
31:09
was not the first time of being- Okay
31:12
conquered.
31:13
And still somehow, somehow, mm, we still have quite strong roots in Europe since
31:22
the nation has been here more than for 1,000 years- Mm-hmm â¦ still surviving.
31:27
We have no idea really how.
31:29
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
31:31
Krisztina Molnar: And and you know, I think there's a big-
31:35
amounts of transgenerational traumas
31:41
Which I think can be the basis of, of of the current mental state.
31:49
It can happen, but has a, a very big influence on that.
31:53
Rupert Isaacson: You know- And- â¦ human brains are so strange
31:55
because you can be in countries where life is really very good.
32:00
For example, Norway, you know, we met through- Mm-hmm â¦ our
32:03
mutual friend, Nolan.
32:05
And, you know, you go to Norway and you're like, "Wow, it's beautiful," and, you
32:09
know, everyone's quite wealthy, and, you know, everything works, and hey, it's
32:14
sort of a bit like Canada, you know?
32:15
And y- you run into people who are really depressed, you know.
32:20
But then people will say, "Ah, yeah, but Rupert, remember it's dark for half
32:24
the year, and remember, you know, there are these cultural things," and so on.
32:29
I say, "Okay, yeah, I can understand that," you know.
32:32
And then you go to oh, the USA, and, so I, I still live and work a lot in
32:38
the USA, and there's a special form of madness there, you know, which
32:42
is almost a kind of paranoia where-
32:48
The, like people feel, "Oh, I've got to have a gun, you
32:51
know, to protect myself fromâ¦"
32:54
And, you know, and you've got someone like me who grew up partly
32:56
in Africa, and it's like, "Who are you protecting yourself from?"
32:59
I mean, you know, I can, I can take you to places where you
33:03
might have to protect- You need protection â¦ yourself a little bit.
33:06
But, you know, not here in suburban Indianapolis, no.
33:10
You know, but, you know, it comes from a history, particularly
33:14
also with slavery and guilt.
33:16
Mm-hmm.
33:16
And then there's inherited trauma of not just for people whose ancestors were the
33:22
slaves or whose ancestors were the, the Native Americans, the Indians who were
33:28
had the genocides, but also the trauma of being the perpetrators, the
33:34
trauma of being on the wrong side.
33:36
Mm.
33:37
And then you want to push that away, and that results in a special kind of
33:41
poor mental health, and one can see this, you know, and understand this.
33:44
And then my family in South Africa, very similar type of story.
33:48
So I'm always intrigued why the human brain goes so easily, even when life is
33:58
quite good- Mm â¦ to this negative place.
34:04
W- what is your â¦ You're a psych- You're a s- you're a shrink.
34:07
You're a psych- psych babe.
34:09
What, what do you think about this?
34:13
Because it's every country
34:17
Krisztina Molnar: I see your point, and actually I think it has
34:21
something to do with attachments.
34:23
There's a lot of information- Mm-hmm â¦ which has an influence on
34:29
your neurological system- Mm â¦ has something to do with attachment
34:36
in theâ¦
34:38
We, we are prone to give what we have unconsciously fromâ¦
34:45
to give pass, to pass it to our children, even from a very young age- Mm-hmm
34:50
which is totally unconscious.
34:53
And, you know, when when you go on a way for 100 times, then it's
35:01
always much easier to go on that way than on a different way where
35:05
you have already walked once.
35:09
And I think that that kind of gives a feeling of safety- Mm-hmm â¦ because
35:14
this is what has happened-
35:16
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
35:17
Krisztina Molnar: for generations and generations and generations.
35:19
Rupert Isaacson: Familiarity, yeah.
35:21
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
35:22
That's familiar.
35:23
Familiarity, and that's a pattern, and probably that's why it's so difficult to
35:32
break out and to build new connections- Mm â¦ to ourselves, in our brain, in
35:40
our relationships, in our attachments.
35:44
Rupert Isaacson: I wonder if that is why nature works on that- Mm-hmm
35:48
psychological level because inâ¦
35:52
You know, I have been lucky in that I've spent a lot of time with hunting
35:58
and gathering tribes, so completely opposite culture to our culture.
36:03
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
36:04
Rupert Isaacson: And w- what one observes in the, when the situation is going well,
36:09
when they are on the land and they have their resources, is all of the things that
36:15
we think of as justice, like for example, equality between men and women, or the
36:24
rights of children being respected, or non-hierarchical leadership where you have
36:32
a group of old people who have a lot of experience, and you and me go to those
36:39
people when we need direction and answer.
36:44
And it wouldn't matter if they were male or female.
36:47
It's all about experience.
36:50
And of course, you're on the land.
36:53
There's enough food to eat.
36:56
You're efficient at getting food, so there's time for culture and conversation
37:02
and fun and dance and spirituality.
37:06
Mm.
37:07
And but th- this is the main thing.
37:11
When people live in that way, particularly in a place like Africa-
37:19
You, the human, are only halfway up the food chain.
37:26
You are not the top predator.
37:28
You're not the lion.
37:31
You're not the hyena.
37:33
And so the culture is about resolving conflict, because if a conflict
37:44
gets too big and the community splits apart, then every single
37:52
person will get eaten by hyenas.
37:56
And this is the human experience over 300, 400,000 years.
38:02
And now f- for 10,000 years, since more or less, since our experiment
38:08
with agriculture, we now have a culture of conflict creation
38:18
Resources become scarce.
38:20
We overpopulate.
38:22
Now I need your family to be the slaves on my farm because I need
38:28
more labor, more labor, more labor.
38:30
And injustice will creep in.
38:32
No, sorry, you do not have control of your uterus anymore.
38:37
I need 10 children.
38:38
In fact, I need 20 children.
38:39
I need five wives, and I need, I need slaves, and I need, you
38:43
know, and I need, and I, you know.
38:44
And now we need to go and have a war with the people over there because, you
38:48
know, it didn't rain here, and it rained there, so they have food and we don't.
38:54
So I'm wondering w- if the, this is really more deeply cultural, and so
38:59
by taking people into the forest, you reunite them a little bit with that
39:06
original state of conflict resolution.
39:13
Something in the genetic memory goes, "Oh, I remember this."
39:20
What do you think?
39:20
What do you-- Well, what do you observe when you're working in that forest?
39:28
If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
39:31
a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
39:35
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
39:39
Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
39:45
Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
39:52
developed in conjunction with Dr.
39:54
Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
39:57
We work in the saddle with younger children.
40:01
Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
40:07
It works incredibly well.
40:08
It's now in about 40 countries.
40:11
Check it out.
40:12
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
40:16
method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
40:20
applied in schools, in homes.
40:22
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
40:27
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
40:30
when they're not with you.
40:31
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
40:35
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
40:38
really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
40:42
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
40:47
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
40:50
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
40:54
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
40:59
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
41:02
need, as well as Serving my clients.
41:05
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
41:10
absolutely gives you this.
41:12
Krisztina Molnar: So speaking, speaking of the forest, it,
41:13
it comes with low connection.
41:16
Okay.
41:17
But I think I was I, I could get your point, and I think it has
41:22
really something to do with with the process, what's happening in
41:27
therapies and in human's mind.
41:31
And I also have another idea of, of how, how nature is a kind of a
41:39
pattern or a model of of resilience because it doesn't work in a way
41:47
that our modern culture works.
41:51
So, you know, if there's an obstacle for a tree, that the tree gr- grows around,
42:00
and it doesn't try to grow 100 times in the same way where it's not working.
42:08
And I think that's also something that has to do with the, the energy around,
42:16
and the atmosphere around the therapy.
42:18
Mm-hmm.
42:19
That o- in one hand, it, it, it works in a way like you said, and I think in
42:24
some other hands it can also benefit in a way like this, that nature shows lot
42:32
of patterns how to, how to process and how to deal with difficult situations.
42:42
Rupert Isaacson: That is conflict resolution, right?
42:44
But conflict- Yes â¦ resolution not through combat, not through fighting.
42:49
Do you, do the, do the clients, do you find that the clients draw these
42:55
conclusions themselves spontaneously?
42:59
Or is this a sort of conversation that you would have when you go into the
43:04
forest, talking about that tree or how the water finds its way or something?
43:11
Krisztina Molnar: It depends.
43:12
It can happen both ways.
43:14
But, mm, when, when there's a therapy session, then we have an invitation
43:22
for the client for a situation, which can be anything, like observing the
43:27
horses or doing this and that with the horses, and doing this and that with the
43:31
forest, or just observing the forest, or just finding a place in the forest.
43:36
And then what you need for, for the therapy as it, it will come
43:44
up with you or, or it will comeâ¦
43:47
You will come across the therapeutic material- Mm â¦ what you use later
43:57
on with the, with the therapy through the conversation and through the
44:02
corrective emotional experience.
44:05
This is what, how, how therapy works.
44:08
And as a therapist, your, your task is, is to click and help
44:15
finally in the integration.
44:18
But most of the things when you are an animal-assisted therapist, that most-
44:24
Mm-hmm â¦ of the things can happen between the nature and the client and the,
44:28
the therapeutic animal and the client.
44:31
And you are there to translate and to understand what's happening
44:37
Rupert Isaacson: When you bring people into the forest like this-
44:41
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
44:41
Rupert Isaacson: let's say, it's too hot today or the weather is really bad.
44:46
So you say, "Okay, I'd like to go into the forest, but today's a bit difficult."
44:51
And let's face it, it has to be very difficult because you can always, if it's
44:55
cold, you can always put on more clothes.
44:57
If it's raining, you can always put on clothes.
45:00
You know, so, so maybe th- maybe there's sometimes, though, when
45:03
it's just a bit too extreme.
45:05
If you then choose to work inside, do you bring the aspects of the natural
45:14
world into the room or into the arena?
45:18
And if so, how do you do that?
45:21
Krisztina Molnar: I think including any kind of animals will bring
45:24
the aspects of nature into the- Okay â¦ therapeutic sessions.
45:28
Even if you are in a room with a dog or with a bunny- Yeah
45:32
that will bring the nature in somehow.
45:37
In in the arena, it's, you know, it's also outside or we are in such
45:44
a lucky position that our indoor arena is total- totally transparent,
45:50
so actually you are in the forest.
45:52
You just- Wow â¦ have a safety bubble around.
45:54
Okay.
45:54
Which was not deliberately like that.
45:57
It was the cheapest version, and-
45:59
in fact, turned out to be the best version for therapies.
46:04
So you're, you're half in and half out in the-
46:09
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, okay
46:11
â¦ Krisztina Molnar: in the, the Hapsalot.
46:13
Rupert Isaacson: That makes a lot of sense.
46:14
Do, have you had your clients express that to you in tho- in that language,
46:21
say, "Oh, this is like being in the forest in a safety bubble"?
46:25
Krisztina Molnar: Oh, yes.
46:26
Sometimes, yes.
46:28
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
46:29
That's very cool.
46:30
Krisztina Molnar: That's cool
46:31
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and then you can say to them, "Yes.
46:32
Yes.
46:32
We designed it that way.
46:33
Absolutely.
46:34
Yeah.
46:34
We-" "Has nothing to do with the fact that it was just the cheapest option."
46:39
Yeah.
46:39
It's
46:40
Krisztina Molnar: often- Yeah, but that has psychological benefits for sure
46:42
because- Mm-hmm â¦ it's if you think of Winnicott, then this is the transactional
46:48
space where, you know, when normally in safe attachment there's between the,
46:54
the mother and the infant, then there's there's a space which is half in and half
47:00
out, and it's, it's transitional space.
47:04
Mm.
47:04
And this indoor is, is the symbolic of a transitional space because we are
47:09
half in and half out, and this is also the space what we need to grow inside
47:14
this, the personality to be, to have enough safety inside to look around and
47:20
observe what's happening inside me and growing in the inner safety, which is
47:28
the basis of any kind of good connections and good- yeah, functioning in life
47:36
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting you talk about half in and half out.
47:41
Yeah â¦ because you're familiar with the word academy, for example.
47:46
You know, a- an academy, people usually mean by that a place of learning, right?
47:51
An academy for this or an academy for that.
47:54
But an academy actually means exactly what you described.
48:01
A garden, usually a, a herbal garden with a, in a courtyard with shaded areas where
48:12
people can sit half in and half out.
48:15
Mm.
48:15
Because of course this came out of Athens in Greece where it was
48:20
very hot and sometimes very cold.
48:23
And the Academia, which is where Socrates was teaching and-
48:29
Mm â¦ Plato was learning and so on, this is the architecture of that.
48:36
And of course, all the early early universities in Europe were on this model.
48:42
They were usually in monasteries, so religious buildings-
48:50
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah
48:50
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: or, or public buildings that were built around this pattern,
48:54
and the teaching happened in this half in, half out environment where
49:00
you could observe physics, you could observe nature, but you could also be
49:04
protected from the elements to some degree in order to, you know, concentrate
49:10
on what you were trying to learn.
49:11
So it's very interesting that you've either consciously or
49:15
unconsciously taken that model.
49:18
Okay, talk, talk to me about how you work.
49:21
You, you have lots of different modalities.
49:25
So equine-assisted psychotherapy obviously, I think a lot of
49:30
listeners are probably quite familiar with how that works.
49:33
But the other stuff that you're doing tell us about the other aspects of your
49:39
program that maybe we're not so aware of, because you've got a unique environment,
49:45
and I'm sure there are things that you're doing that we could learn from, which is
49:50
why we wanted you to come on the show.
49:52
We want to steal your secrets, basically.
49:55
Krisztina Molnar: I, I, I don't think there are any secrets.
49:58
Because it was, it was what you say, that that was most of the time quite
50:05
unconscious how things worked out.
50:07
Mm.
50:08
And that was absolutely based on how we tried to adapt to the circumstances.
50:14
And if you have a forest next to your arena or around your
50:18
farm, then why not to use it?
50:21
So actually using the environments developed around how we could adapt
50:27
to circumstances like you have already mentioned, that there's forest
50:32
next to us, then why not to use it?
50:34
If it's too hot, then it's much nicer to ride in the forest, even if it's- Mm
50:41
â¦ riding school, even if it's therapy.
50:43
And then we started to build, â¦ or started to find magical places of the
50:52
forest where, where, you know, you can use in therapies and stuff like that.
50:58
So we have a forest for the fairy tales where you can wish,
51:03
and your wishes come true.
51:06
Like I wished once six horses, and be v- very careful what you wish because
51:11
then you have 14 . And there's also a little mound where all your problems
51:18
can be blown away that we can find any time when it's needed or the â¦ So a
51:27
magical place which is the middle of the forest where you can find the most
51:32
magical things that you don't expect.
51:34
And, you know, through, through the process and through the s- sessions
51:40
and through the psychological needs of our clients, these places happened,
51:45
and these places were created.
51:47
And then, of course, it's much easier to come across with the same place
51:52
and with the same idea for, for the next therapy or for the next clients.
51:59
Rupert Isaacson: So when you go, for example, to the mound
52:02
in the forest where your-
52:03
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah
52:04
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: problems can go away how literally are people interpreting that?
52:11
So for example, if they sit there and say, "Okay, I have this problem, and I want
52:15
it to go away," and then they come back one month later and say, "Hey, Christina,
52:19
I've still got the same problem."
52:21
W- or have you indeed found that if people go and sit on this mound,
52:27
their problems do actually go away?
52:30
Like talk to us a little bit around the rational and the non-rational here
52:37
because I think this interplay between magic and science is fascinating,
52:42
and it's exactly where we all sit-
52:46
Krisztina Molnar: I think the key is in, in the understanding and the
52:52
understanding of psychological happenings.
52:55
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
52:55
Krisztina Molnar: Because of course it doesn't work in a magical way like
52:58
that, that you tell me a problem and I say to you, "Okay, there's a mound
53:03
where you go and you sit and you scream it out, and then it will disappear."
53:09
It doesn't work like that.
53:11
But youâ¦
53:12
O- or I can and I'm just thinking how to- Mm â¦ how to describe it, how it happens.
53:20
Because I think the keyâ¦
53:21
one of the keys is the, the tuning of how you can feel and how you can recognize
53:32
the psychological needs of the child, for example, if it's, if it's child.
53:37
And there you really understand, you resonate on what h- he or she is
53:45
missing or what the unfulfilled need is.
53:49
And on the basis of that psychological need, you create a, a, an invitation which
53:58
is a situation where she has or he has a choice to do it or not to do it, or do
54:05
it in a way like she does or, or what I imagine, or d- do it in a different way.
54:13
And I just offer then for example, last time you mentioned how
54:19
much you hate the nurse in your kindergarten because she's speaking
54:24
too loud to you and too rude to you.
54:28
And you know, that must have been, you must have been very
54:33
angry when it happens to you.
54:36
And probably you, mm, must have feel- felt very ashamed by that.
54:44
But, you know, n- now you have another kindergarten where this is not a
54:51
problem anymore, but you may think that this can happen anytime to you again.
54:59
And would you like to go to a place like that where there's an option to to
55:05
help Mother Nature or to ask the help of Mother Nature to blew this away from you?
55:12
And it's like it's like any kind of game or drawing or, you know, all
55:18
the subjects that kids are able to to cope with their- inner conflict.
55:26
And this is how it happens.
55:28
I, I find something that maybe can resonate with this magical
55:34
place, and I offer that.
55:36
Or other way round.
55:39
It also happened that for a family I offered that I know a magical place
55:44
where people can let things go.
55:49
Mm, would they feel like to go there and try to let things, some things go?
55:55
And we will see what they-
56:00
Let go and what family members want to let what, and maybe the mother wants
56:06
to let something totally different than go than the father or the child.
56:11
So it can also work the other way around.
56:13
It's, it always depends on what's what's the goal.
56:16
If it's a diagnostic goal, because then then I think the
56:20
second option works better.
56:23
For example, you can transform a diagnostic task of three wishes.
56:29
That's diagnostic task or exercise.
56:33
You can turn it into a much natural way into the fairy tales, where there's a
56:39
fairy forest, and where fairies live on the top of the forest or, or, or on
56:46
the top of the trees, and you can wish.
56:50
And if you really need that thing, they will find a way to have that.
56:56
And what are the wishes you wish for from the fairies?
57:01
Or what do you think your mother would wish for you from the fairies?
57:09
And then there's a diagnostic role.
57:11
And on the way along- How,
57:13
Rupert Isaacson: how does the diagnostic role work with this?
57:17
Krisztina Molnar: That you have on, on the basis of the wishes, you will find
57:22
psychological needs, what they wish.
57:25
If they wish for one more toy, then you can translate or translate it
57:31
into a psychological language, which means that you have a desire that your
57:37
dreams should be always fulfilled, and you would really like to feel
57:41
that somebody hears your needs and that they are going to be fulfilled.
57:49
That means that they want one more toy car, for example.
57:54
But kids are amazing, and they always wish for what they really
58:00
need and what we really need to hear
58:05
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting.
58:06
I, I was just on the phone having a conversation with a pediatrician, a
58:13
doctor in the USA who works with a child that I know very well, and hasâ¦
58:22
She hasâ¦
58:23
This doctor has supported the equine therapy.
58:26
She has supported the nature-based stuff.
58:30
And yet, and she's gonna be on this show, I'm gonna talk to her.
58:33
But it was really interesting.
58:35
In the US, and to maybe a lesser extent in the UK,
58:43
someâ¦
58:44
If you get the practitioners, and the doctors, and people like that talking
58:48
about ideas like magic, and three wishes, and fairy tales, they won't do it because
58:57
they will feel professionally really vulnerable that that's just too dangerous.
59:05
You know?
59:05
And even though they probably very much want to talk in these terms, because this
59:11
is how humans are they sort of can't.
59:14
Yeah.
59:14
You are there you're a clinician.
59:17
You're working from a diagnostic point of view in Hungary, and what
59:23
I'm hearing is that people are quite comfortable with that language, yet
59:30
you also told me that in Hungary you don't feel that people have a really
59:36
strong relationship with the forest.
59:39
But now you're telling me that they do have a really strong relationship
59:43
with story and traditional storytelling concepts like fairytales.
59:52
Do you think that that is something specifically Hungarian?
59:56
That, because you're the first person, I think, on this show
1:00:01
to tell me a story like that.
1:00:03
Usually I'm the one talking about that sort of thing, and here
1:00:07
you are, you're the, you're the psychotherapist, and you go, "Yeah,
1:00:09
Rupert, fairytales and three wishes and there's a magic mound," and theâ¦
1:00:13
And I, I love it.
1:00:14
So y- yeah, is this something specifically Hungarian, do you think?
1:00:20
Krisztina Molnar: Actually, I have no idea.
1:00:22
I think it's specific to children and not specific to Hungarian.
1:00:27
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but you talked about families.
1:00:29
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
1:00:29
Rupert Isaacson: You talked about-
1:00:30
Krisztina Molnar: yeah, but of course in- â¦ it's
1:00:31
Rupert Isaacson: for families as well and so
1:00:31
Krisztina Molnar: adults â¦ in, in the fam- yeah, but you're right.
1:00:34
In a fam- in a family therapy, Also always children, or most of
1:00:38
the time children are present.
1:00:40
Mm.
1:00:40
And there, there you also have to find a way how to how to connect everyone in, in
1:00:48
a family me- member, through the family members and the systems or, or, you know,
1:00:54
the smaller systems inside the family.
1:00:56
And of course you are also a model in a family therapy how to connect
1:01:03
to a child, because many parents are just can't think in terms what
1:01:10
they used to think in a childhood.
1:01:13
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:01:13
Krisztina Molnar: And m- most of them are very open to it, to that.
1:01:17
But I, I'm sure that not in every family therapy and not in
1:01:21
every phase of the family therapy would work with fairy tales.
1:01:27
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless- But- You're, you're there in Hungary- Number-
1:01:29
â¦ in Central Europe, and fairy tales are a big part of the culture, right?
1:01:33
All the Disney stories- I think- â¦ come out of
1:01:35
Krisztina Molnar: Central Europe
1:01:35
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: yes.
1:01:36
Yeah.
1:01:36
Krisztina Molnar: Yes, and actually we have quite deep tradition in
1:01:40
traditional tales, which are, are very, very famous and popular in Hungary.
1:01:46
So I think what you're saying has something to do with the tradition
1:01:50
and Hungarian specific terms.
1:01:53
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:01:54
Krisztina Molnar: But I think it comes very, very deeply of, of,
1:01:59
of how, how is being a child.
1:02:04
Rupert Isaacson: We run a, a neuroscience conference every two
1:02:09
years at medi- at a medical university medical school in Virginia in the USA.
1:02:17
We justâ¦
1:02:17
It was just two weeks ago that we had it.
1:02:20
It'll be in n- the next two years.
1:02:21
I think on the next one, I want you to come as a speaker, and
1:02:25
I want you to talk about this.
1:02:26
Oh, my God.
1:02:28
You'll be, you'll be- Okay â¦ you'll be dragging a, a two-year-old too.
1:02:30
But- â¦ I think this is a really unlooked f- y- this is a really overlooked area.
1:02:37
Look, when I wrote the Horse Boy book I was talking about directly going to the
1:02:48
old lady in the forest, directly going to the old man in the forest in parts of
1:02:53
the world where this is not just a story that's partly forgotten, where it's still
1:03:01
very, very, very much a living tradition.
1:03:04
However, it still comes down to story.
1:03:08
You arrive with a dilemma, with a problem.
1:03:11
There's a quest.
1:03:12
You go on this quest, and you are looking for an answer to this dilemma, and in
1:03:20
nature, usually deep nature with some real challenges and some dangers you
1:03:28
eventually find your way to the wise man or the wise woman, and they do what
1:03:36
they do and give you A s- connection with the spirit world that you're
1:03:44
talking about, which is fairies and that sort of thing, but for them it's very
1:03:48
real and tied up with real survival.
1:03:53
And then they bring you an answer, and you implement their instructions.
1:04:01
And of course, when I wrote that book and made that film, you can imagine
1:04:05
that there were 50% of people who said, "Wow, that's amazing," and 50%
1:04:10
of people who said, "You're an idiot because you are saying that shamanism
1:04:17
cures autism," or something like this.
1:04:19
And I say, "No, no, of course I'm not saying that."
1:04:21
In fact, if you look in the book, you will see that I say specifically that
1:04:25
I'm not saying that about 100 times.
1:04:27
But hey, okay, fine.
1:04:28
You think this.
1:04:29
I can understand why you think this, because you're terrified that I might
1:04:35
make you go out into that big, bad forest.
1:04:39
Just like you said, there are some people who are very afraid of this, because what
1:04:42
we're talking about is a loss of control.
1:04:46
And what I think you're touching on is that when you are in a situation
1:04:54
where you have already lost control, when you have an autistic child, when
1:04:59
you have a special needs child, when you have a psychosis, when you have
1:05:03
depression, you are not in control.
1:05:06
You have lost control completely, and this is very distressing And
1:05:14
so then of course you try to get control, and it, it doesn't work.
1:05:20
In fact, it makes it worse.
1:05:22
And then you have to fall back on these ancestral technologies, and of course
1:05:30
these traditional stories that you're talking about in Hungary are technologies
1:05:37
for understanding the human condition.
1:05:41
And why then if they mean nothing, if they're so stupid,
1:05:47
why is every Disney movie that?
1:05:51
Yeah.
1:05:52
You know?
1:05:52
And all of the early ones all came out of those traditional central
1:05:56
European stories, the German ones, the Czech ones, the Hungarian ones.
1:06:00
Yeah.
1:06:00
And then later they went to other cultures as well.
1:06:03
But if there's nothing in it, then why does it sit at the center of Hollywood?
1:06:09
Why does it stat at the center of where people look for meaning in their
1:06:18
day-to-day lives, and that they will consume this, they will pay money
1:06:23
for this in an entertainment setting?
1:06:27
You're now talking about bringing it into the clinical setting,
1:06:30
which I think is 100% sane because that is what they exist for.
1:06:37
But it's interesting that this is not the norm, and I think if you were to
1:06:43
come and talk about this more at this neuroscience conference, what would be
1:06:49
very interesting would be to look at, well, what's the neuroscience of this?
1:06:54
What goes on in the human brain when you put them in nature with a story like this?
1:07:01
Why do you see change when you do this?
1:07:05
There must be changes in the neurons.
1:07:07
There must be.
1:07:08
There must be m- more neural connections.
1:07:10
So could you speculate a little bit on that?
1:07:13
You don't have to say, "Well, Rupert, I don't know because,
1:07:16
you know, the science is out."
1:07:18
We're, we're not talking about that kind of science here.
1:07:21
I think we're allowed to speculate and observe that something is
1:07:26
working and then wonder, "Well, why?
1:07:28
Why might it be working?"
1:07:30
So what do you think?
1:07:33
Krisztina Molnar: An idea has come across since you were talking, and
1:07:39
and when you were talking about that you literally went after the wise man
1:07:46
and the wise woman in the forest, that actually I think what's happening in
1:07:53
therapy is that each and every human being has a wi- has a wise man or a wise
1:08:01
woman inside, which, you know, isâ¦
1:08:03
Schema therapy has a whole term of that, that this is- Okay â¦ the wise mode.
1:08:08
And and the nature and the forest is an excellent tool to connect to your wise
1:08:18
man and wise woman, or it seems to be.
1:08:23
And maybe that's that's an aspect that probably that would be also
1:08:27
interesting to check out, that probably, mm, this wise mode in, in
1:08:34
this term or, or this connection to the,
1:08:39
Rupert Isaacson: So
1:08:39
Krisztina Molnar: let's- The, the, the, the natural wisdom-
1:08:42
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:08:43
Krisztina Molnar: can happen more easily.
1:08:45
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay, let's talk about this a little bit more.
1:08:48
I'm making a couple of notes.
1:08:50
Mm-hmm.
1:08:50
All right.
1:08:50
This is really good.
1:08:52
You said schema therapy.
1:08:54
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
1:08:54
Rupert Isaacson: What is that?
1:09:00
Krisztina Molnar: Okay.
1:09:01
That's a, a very, very big concept of on the basis of the work of Jeffrey Young.
1:09:09
Rupert Isaacson: Jeffrey Young.
1:09:10
Krisztina Molnar: I think, y- yes.
1:09:11
And schema therapy is very, very popular in Europe, also in Hungary.
1:09:17
That's, that's a psychotherapy- I've never heard of it, so you need- â¦ setting.
1:09:20
Really?
1:09:21
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:09:21
Yeah.
1:09:23
Krisztina Molnar: So can you explain it, please?
1:09:23
Actually, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:09:24
As far, â¦ Yeah, it was depe- first â¦ No.
1:09:28
Okay.
1:09:29
I'm getting a little bit confused now.
1:09:31
So, it, this kind of therapy was developed on the basis of Beck's work.
1:09:41
Beck had a lot of patients with depression.
1:09:45
That's why we also have the Beck Scale and stuff like that for measuring depression.
1:09:49
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:09:49
Krisztina Molnar: And he realized that the, the therapy for
1:09:54
depression didn't always work
1:10:00
patients.
1:10:00
And with some patients who had not only therapy but probably personality
1:10:05
disorder, they needed much more than cognitive behavior therapy, which was
1:10:10
originally- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm â¦ used very widely for depression.
1:10:16
And then Jeffrey Young came, and on the basis of what Beck found
1:10:21
in his work he started to create a much wider, mm- concept of of
1:10:31
how, how we think about- Mm-hmm
1:10:34
the personality and how we think about the therapy work.
1:10:38
And he assessed not only the cognitive behavior methods, but also the work
1:10:45
with the, the attachments and with the, the, the relationship be- with the
1:10:50
therapist and the in the, the client.
1:10:53
And he also created the concept of schemas and,
1:10:59
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:11:00
Krisztina Molnar: that according to that s- that concept, then you have, ev-
1:11:04
everyone has schemas in, in the core of their personality, which- Right â¦ are
1:11:12
built in from early childhood through the experiences and can be formed also
1:11:19
by temperament and inherited stuff.
1:11:24
But we all have schemas w- m- that can be very, very different,
1:11:29
and you can also have positive and also negative schemas, too.
1:11:32
Okay.
1:11:32
But for example, mm, I'm just thinking of one specific, that you
1:11:39
can have a schema of being deprived.
1:11:42
And then you, through your life, you will come across with situations when
1:11:50
you feel deprived, and you somehow create that situation around you, and that's
1:11:56
why you face many, many problems or, or not problems, but, you know, difficult
1:12:04
circumstances through, through your life.
1:12:07
And okay, that's the very easy way of schema therapy.
1:12:10
Right.
1:12:10
No, absolutely.
1:12:11
W- There's much more, much more difficult than that, but that's-
1:12:14
Rupert Isaacson: While you're talking- â¦ somehow â¦ I'm, I'm, I'm looking on
1:12:17
my phone, you know, and looking it up.
1:12:19
Mm-hmm.
1:12:19
And so basically what you're talking about, a schema is
1:12:22
a belief system really, and-
1:12:23
Krisztina Molnar: Yes, exactly
1:12:25
Rupert Isaacson: Where this comes out of experiences early in your life.
1:12:30
Krisztina Molnar: Yes.
1:12:30
Rupert Isaacson: And some ofâ¦
1:12:31
And then they, these belief systems result in coping strategies that
1:12:36
might or might not be helpful for you.
1:12:39
And schemas can be triggered, these belief systems can be triggered.
1:12:43
Mm-hmm.
1:12:44
Exactly â¦ okay.
1:12:44
Okay.
1:12:45
And then you can even do some sort of re-parenting therapy where-
1:12:49
Krisztina Molnar: yeah, of course.
1:12:51
That's
1:12:51
Rupert Isaacson: very important â¦ you provide the safety and emotional
1:12:53
support the client maybe missed out on during childhood.
1:12:55
Okay.
1:12:55
Okay, this makes sense.
1:12:56
So- I, I suppose if we're talking about belief, then what is a fairy tale
1:13:04
other than a schema, other than a, a belief system told through a story?
1:13:12
Because most fairy tales follow more or less the same, the same pattern, right?
1:13:18
There- Mm-hmm â¦ there's usually a, a, an, a hero or a heroine.
1:13:24
Sometimes both.
1:13:25
It could be two young children even.
1:13:28
Usually that person, the princess, the mermaid, whoever, gets drawn into a story
1:13:38
that's dangerous, but they have no choice.
1:13:41
They have to, they have to go and deal with it now, even if they don't want to.
1:13:47
And then it all goes wrong, and just when the witch is about to eat them or
1:13:54
something- Mm â¦ they realize that they can find some inner resource which might
1:14:03
have the personification of a fairy or an animal or something, and they get
1:14:15
a gift, and this gift i- is a power.
1:14:21
And then when they go and face Darth Vader again, you know, or Baba Yaga
1:14:26
or whoever, they use this power, and this is what allows them to resolve the
1:14:35
conflict, whatever the conflict was.
1:14:37
And that's a fairy story, basically, you know?
1:14:40
So it would make sense to me that you c- have a fairy forest, and you take someone
1:14:45
in who has a belief system, a schema- Mm â¦ and then you answer that with a
1:14:51
belief system that is traditional, that is usually set in a place like this forest.
1:14:59
And I could see how also through genetic memory, I could see how if
1:15:04
your ancestors spent a lot of time in forests like this and a lot of time
1:15:09
hearing stories like this, that it could spark a sort of a- a recognition and an
1:15:18
acceptance that would be really helpful.
1:15:22
I could see absolutely the psychological process there, and I could also
1:15:28
understand why, let's say, if you're walking through that forest or you're
1:15:32
riding through that forest, you will undergo a neurological change because
1:15:38
your vestibular system is activated.
1:15:41
You have to engage in novel movement.
1:15:44
You have all this sensory information coming in from the forest, which is
1:15:50
natural, and this is going to cause you to create brain-derived neurotrophic
1:15:56
factor, BDNF, that protein- Mm-hmm
1:15:58
that leads to neuroplasticity.
1:16:00
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
1:16:00
Rupert Isaacson: And among those neurons, there are going to be
1:16:04
Purkinje, Purkinje cells that deal with social skills, so youâ¦
1:16:08
That's emotional intelligence.
1:16:10
And I could see how those allegorical and physical things could come
1:16:17
together to create real change.
1:16:21
So now I'm gonna ask you a really challenging question.
1:16:23
Are you ready for this one?
1:16:24
Krisztina Molnar: Oh, my God.
1:16:26
Yeah.
1:16:27
Rupert Isaacson: Are there actual fairies in your forest?
1:16:36
Krisztina Molnar: What do you believe?
1:16:38
That's
1:16:38
Rupert Isaacson: my answer What do you believe?
1:16:41
What do you believe, Christina?
1:16:46
Krisztina Molnar: Of course there are
1:16:47
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:16:47
Krisztina Molnar: There are many, there are so many proofs of that
1:16:50
Rupert Isaacson: So talk to me about this because, you know, y- we've
1:16:53
talked a lot about the rational, right?
1:16:55
Yeah We know that you have, that you're, y- you've got your degrees,
1:16:59
and we know that â¦ Yes, yes.
1:17:00
Okay.
1:17:01
Now talk to us about the irrational.
1:17:02
Why are there fairies in your forest, and how
1:17:05
Krisztina Molnar: do
1:17:06
Rupert Isaacson: you know this?
1:17:09
Krisztina Molnar: Because if in, in a fairy forest, there are always going
1:17:17
to be creatures that just like in the tale, that are created somehow inside
1:17:24
you, and they come to life outside.
1:17:30
And if you are around with such b- wonderful creatures like our horses
1:17:36
and with such wonderful people like my team and with so many wonderful
1:17:45
happenings around and events around, then what else can you have in
1:17:50
a forest like that than fairies?
1:17:52
Rupert Isaacson: Have you met one?
1:17:54
Krisztina Molnar: No.
1:17:55
Rupert Isaacson: Have you seen one?
1:17:57
Krisztina Molnar: No
1:18:00
Rupert Isaacson: Shall I tell you an interesting story?
1:18:03
Yeah, please.
1:18:03
I went to do a retreat well, to h- to lead a retreat with another person,
1:18:09
a lady called Emilie Keyes' daughter.
1:18:11
She's an extraordinary woman in Sweden and she's been on this show, and she's one of
1:18:18
the most interesting people I've ever met.
1:18:19
And you know, you often hear people say they're animal communicators,
1:18:23
and usually when people say that to me I'm like, "Nah, no you're not.
1:18:26
Nah, you think you're an animal communicator, but
1:18:29
nah, you're not an animalâ¦"
1:18:30
Why do I think that?
1:18:31
Because I've seen real animal communication at work, particularly
1:18:35
with hunting and gathering people, where they really do have to learn
1:18:39
how to communicate with wild animals and, you know, in ways that if they
1:18:44
don't do it, they don't survive.
1:18:46
I don't disagree that in our modern context there would be people
1:18:51
in our society with that talent.
1:18:52
Of course there are, but the v- it's, it's a rare talent, so given how many thousands
1:18:58
of people in the equine-assisted world talk about being animal communicators,
1:19:03
it's unlikely that so many would be.
1:19:06
However, she really is.
1:19:09
And not just not just animals, but rocks, plants, and she talks about
1:19:17
these entities, these energies of the plants, of the stones, of the
1:19:22
forest, of the animals that can project themselves through the human imagination.
1:19:30
And if you are open to it, you can have communication with them.
1:19:38
And over three or four days, we were playing with these ideas in, in her way.
1:19:47
On the last night that I was there, I was sleeping by myself in a hammock in the
1:19:53
forest near a rock face, and something came out of the rock and looked at me and
1:20:02
then went back into the rock And it wa-
1:20:06
Krisztina Molnar: That's amazing
1:20:07
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: very, you know, it was unmistakable.
1:20:10
Mm-hmm.
1:20:10
And it- I'm also totally comfortable with people saying,
1:20:13
"Rupert, you're full of shit."
1:20:14
That, it's, it's fine if that's what you wanna think.
1:20:16
It's, it's â¦ I'm not trying to convince anybody.
1:20:19
And I've seen stranger things than that with the Bushmen.
1:20:22
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
1:20:23
Rupert Isaacson: But it was really interesting to be
1:20:24
in Europe with this person.
1:20:25
Mm-hmm.
1:20:25
And then if you think about what Nikola Tesla said.
1:20:30
So Nikola Tesla, we would not be able to be speaking over Zoom or using-
1:20:37
Mm â¦ cell phones or anything except because of this man, Nikola Tesla.
1:20:42
We use all his technology all the time, but they don't
1:20:45
teach us about him in school.
1:20:48
They teach us about different physicists and different scientists.
1:20:52
They, they talk to us about Alexander Graham Bell, and they talk
1:20:56
to us about some of his content.
1:20:58
All right.
1:21:00
But he said, "If you want to understand the universe, you have
1:21:05
to think in terms of vibration, frequency," and what's the third one?
1:21:13
Frequency, vibration, it'll come to me.
1:21:16
And we know now that this is true.
1:21:20
Like, I look at you and you look pretty solid.
1:21:22
Look- Mm â¦ there's Christina.
1:21:23
Like, I can touch her.
1:21:25
There, she's there.
1:21:25
But you and I both know that you are not that solid, that you are composed
1:21:31
of lots of molecules dancing around each other- Mm â¦ like with a distance, and
1:21:37
most of you is actually empty space.
1:21:40
But this electrical charge, this vibrational charge- creates matter
1:21:47
if it gets close enough together.
1:21:50
And we even observe this in matter because we can observe liquids, which
1:21:55
are a little bit further apart, the molecules, and we can observe gases
1:22:00
where they're really quite a lot fur- and then there's a lot we can't observe.
1:22:04
So we know this is true.
1:22:06
And there is an interesting idea that Tesla was playing with, but it's there
1:22:14
in shamanism and it, I think Einstein played with this as well, which is
1:22:18
that if you project enough thought and belief into that vibrational field, that
1:22:25
molecular electron quantum field, you create a certain density of molecular
1:22:36
light really, which can then manifest as a projection of your thought.
1:22:45
Perhaps that energy was already there and now you just see it
1:22:49
through a lens that is cultural.
1:22:52
So we might see a fairy or- Mm â¦ the thing that came out
1:22:56
of the rock, but someone else might see it very differently.
1:22:59
But nonetheless, there it is.
1:23:02
And so when I asked you about are there fairies in your forest, and you
1:23:07
said, "Of course there are," right?
1:23:10
I immediately thought, "Well, yeah," because if Christina puts enough
1:23:16
thought and enough Hungarian people before Christina put enough thought
1:23:23
into this forest and this mythology of nature spirits through this particular
1:23:30
cultural lens, and she now brings her belief and focuses that vibration and
1:23:38
frequency, why would there not be?
1:23:42
You see where I'm going?
1:23:43
That it's still scientific in youâ¦
1:23:48
Or, or let's say you could look at it through the lens of science.
1:23:53
Krisztina Molnar: Yes.
1:23:54
Yes, that's a very interesting aspect that I I haven't really been
1:23:58
thinking of, but it's worth thinking.
1:24:02
Rupert Isaacson: Because I, I'm thinking too, if you're talking to a
1:24:04
child like this or, or, or an adult and say, "Well, okay, this is what
1:24:09
Nikola Tesla thought," and clearly he was a clever bastard, right?
1:24:12
You know?
1:24:13
Why wouldn't we play with this concept?
1:24:15
So why don't we talk about fairies?
1:24:16
So if, if we sit on this mound-
1:24:20
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
1:24:20
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and we call to those fairies for answer
1:24:24
to this dilemma- They will
1:24:25
Krisztina Molnar: probably come.
1:24:26
Rupert Isaacson: Well, of course.
1:24:27
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah, whenâ¦
1:24:28
You will see when you're here.
1:24:30
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:24:31
Take me there.
1:24:31
Let's, let's do it.
1:24:32
Yeah
1:24:33
you know, but you, you could, you could say, "Well, I invite you, the client,
1:24:38
to start thinking about the world in the same way that Nikola Tesla did."
1:24:42
Mm-hmm.
1:24:42
Because why not?
1:24:45
And does it matter if it's true?
1:24:47
But given that Nikola Tesla was a clever dude and he wasn't trying
1:24:52
to make money, he was just playing with energy frequency and vibration.
1:24:57
Energy frequency and vibration, I knew I would think about.
1:25:00
And indeed, here we are using wireless technology to talk to each other,
1:25:05
energy frequency and vibration.
1:25:08
Yeah.
1:25:10
So yeah, I want you to think about this some more, and I want you to come
1:25:13
and talk about it at this neuroscience conference because I, I'd like to
1:25:17
explore the neuroscience of this.
1:25:19
Krisztina Molnar: Okay, that's very nice invitation.
1:25:26
Rupert Isaacson: And I didn't expect the conversation- Yeah â¦ to go here.
1:25:28
You know, I, I-
1:25:29
Krisztina Molnar: No, me, me neither.
1:25:30
Yeah.
1:25:30
I, I'm sure that I didn't expect to come up with that.
1:25:35
But this is how it works.
1:25:37
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:25:38
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
1:25:39
You know, it, it- We, we both- Go ahead â¦ feel safe enough to talk.
1:25:42
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:25:43
Krisztina Molnar: Things like that.
1:25:45
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I feel that if people like us are not willing to
1:25:49
take these sorts of conceptual risks-
1:25:53
Krisztina Molnar: Mm
1:25:53
Rupert Isaacson: then what's the point?
1:25:55
I mean, why don't we just go and get jobs as accountants or dressage
1:26:00
trainers or, or something, you know?
1:26:02
If we're dealing with the interplay of the human mind with nature, and
1:26:09
even if you're not in the forest, you're still in nature, right?
1:26:14
I'm in a room right now, but I'm breathing oxygen.
1:26:16
That's nature, you know?
1:26:18
Mm.
1:26:18
I'm sitting on a chair that's made of wood.
1:26:20
That's nature.
1:26:21
Ifâ¦
1:26:22
But I'm talking to a microphone that's made of metal.
1:26:26
That's nature.
1:26:27
And plastic, which is forests from the dinosaur times.
1:26:31
It's still nature, just not as nice as the forest.
1:26:37
But yet i- in a funny way I feel it's our duty to have these conversations because
1:26:43
a- again, in therapy, have you ever met a child who said, "Hey, Christina, Dr.
1:26:49
Christina, I really want some therapy."?
1:26:53
Fuck off.
1:26:53
No.
1:26:54
No kid ever said that, ever.
1:26:57
A- adults might say that.
1:26:58
A kid says, "I would like to go in the fairy forest, please, Christina.
1:27:02
I would like to ride the horse into the fairy forest and,
1:27:06
and play and talk to fairies.
1:27:07
Can I do that?"
1:27:08
And you'd be like, "Absolutely."
1:27:10
Or you could say, "No, fairies do not exist."
1:27:14
Which is gonna get better mental health?
1:27:18
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah, of course.
1:27:19
The first one
1:27:23
Rupert Isaacson: So let's talk about fantasy then, because some
1:27:28
people will say, "Rupert, now you're in the realm of fantasy."
1:27:35
But could that be exactly where we need to be?
1:27:40
Because is that the realm of possibility?
1:27:44
Is that the quantum realm?
1:27:50
What do you think?
1:27:58
Krisztina Molnar: Let me think
1:28:07
I think fantasy is kind of part of the healthy mind.
1:28:13
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:28:14
Krisztina Molnar: But of course in a way, or as long as it serves the
1:28:20
wholeness or, or, Or, you know, the developmental of of the personality
1:28:29
or, or the wellbeing of the person.
1:28:33
And it's like, mm, it's like, you know, just a tool that it can
1:28:41
serve very beneficial ways and can serve the other way round.
1:28:47
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:28:48
What is the difference for you between fantasy, which
1:28:53
is using the imagination to-
1:28:56
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
1:28:56
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: come up with alternate possibilities, right?
1:28:58
We, we must do this or nothing would ever happen.
1:29:02
We must imagine something.
1:29:04
But there's also delusion.
1:29:06
Krisztina Molnar: Mm.
1:29:08
Rupert Isaacson: How do weâ¦
1:29:11
A, what's the difference between fantasy or imagination and delusion?
1:29:16
And if somebody is in delusion, how do we bring them back to a
1:29:26
healthier use of imagination?
1:29:31
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
1:29:36
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
1:29:42
of dressage training.
1:29:43
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:29:52
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:29:58
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:30:04
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:30:07
Intrigued?
1:30:08
Like to know more?
1:30:10
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:30:14
Check out the free introduction course.
1:30:17
Take it from there.
1:30:19
Krisztina Molnar: I'm thinking how to describe what I have inside.
1:30:24
But I think, The difference between fantasy and illusion is, if it serves you
1:30:31
growing yourself and your relationship with the world, I mean relationship
1:30:39
with people and relationship withâ¦
1:30:42
around yourself with other creatures.
1:30:45
If it helps you to function that better, then this is fantasy.
1:30:53
And and of course, there's a psychotic level of fantasy, which is
1:30:59
also delusion that not, that is not connecting you to yourself, to your
1:31:04
true self, and to your true relations, but cuts you from yourself- Mm
1:31:11
and from your real connections, then this is not helpful Because that can
1:31:17
also be kind of coping of- Mm-hmm â¦ you know, reaching out for fantasies
1:31:24
and living in a total fantasy world that has nothing to do with reality,
1:31:29
and that's not gonna be helpful.
1:31:31
And there, there will be- Sounds great, actually
1:31:33
Rupert Isaacson: with
1:31:34
Krisztina Molnar: the im- But yeah.
1:31:34
With the imagination.
1:31:35
If it's connecting, or if it's- Yeah â¦ disconnecting.
1:31:37
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:31:38
Okay.
1:31:39
If it's connecting or disconnecting, that's good.
1:31:41
Okay, and then I presume that if fantasy and imagination is projected
1:31:46
through the lens of psychosis-
1:31:50
Krisztina Molnar: Mm
1:31:50
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: then some bad shit could go down, right?
1:31:53
People could think that their mother is the devil and-
1:31:57
Krisztina Molnar: Mm
1:31:57
Rupert Isaacson: they need to kill their mother or something, and
1:31:59
this, we know that this happens.
1:32:02
That would seem to me fantasy and imagination gone wrong through-
1:32:07
Mm â¦ a lens of psychosis.
1:32:09
And I could see in something like borderline personality disorder- Mm â¦ a
1:32:15
milder version of that happening.
1:32:18
Okay, so if you identify, let's say you have a client and you're taking
1:32:21
them into the fairy forest, which is about the use of imagination and mind
1:32:26
and nature and you want to help that person sort order, where is my fantasy
1:32:36
and imagination helping to connect me, as you said, and where is it- Mm
1:32:40
disconnecting me?
1:32:41
How does the horse help in this?
1:32:46
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah, that, that's what exactly came up in my mind, because
1:32:51
probably resonating with why I lost it.
1:32:55
What, what's the core of the horse?
1:32:57
I think the horse and the animal is kind of an anchor
1:33:02
that keeps you in the present-
1:33:05
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:33:05
â¦ Krisztina Molnar: and, and makes you to connect to the present and you
1:33:13
know, in, in, in the very minute you have to be aware of everything when
1:33:19
you are sitting on a horse or- Yeah
1:33:21
when you are leading the horse.
1:33:23
They are the anchor
1:33:27
Rupert Isaacson: That was a really good answer.
1:33:30
That was a really good answer.
1:33:32
Like, that, that, that's that's such a succinct answer.
1:33:35
Because I could see how you talked about earlier when you bring certain people, a
1:33:42
small minority of vulnerable people into the forest, and they react with fear.
1:33:47
Okay, maybe that gets better, but certainly in that moment, maybe the
1:33:53
forest isn't where they want to be.
1:33:55
And you talked about your arena being a transparent, so it's like
1:33:59
a safety bubble in the nature.
1:34:01
That was really good.
1:34:03
But somebody going in with a psychosis or a delusion, I could see they could
1:34:12
look at the forest as just a sort of a landscape, a background to their delusion.
1:34:20
Mm.
1:34:20
But it would be very hard- And
1:34:22
Krisztina Molnar: you never go to the forest with them- Yeah
1:34:26
because it's not safe enough.
1:34:28
Right.
1:34:28
And and youâ¦
1:34:29
A- and if they are so disconnected of reality and themselves, then it'sâ¦
1:34:36
that is the therapist's responsibility to take care of them and not
1:34:41
deepening more their delusion.
1:34:44
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:34:45
But I do wonder if that- Mm â¦ could get better.
1:34:47
Because, for example- Mm â¦ we have a colleague that we work
1:34:50
with who I hope you will meet.
1:34:52
She's called Leanna Tank, and she works in Michigan, and she works
1:34:58
with people who are deeply psychotic.
1:35:02
Mm-hmm â¦ they can't be allowed back into society.
1:35:04
Many of them have done really terrible things andâ¦
1:35:08
but under psychosis.
1:35:10
And she says getting them out into nature actually works very well
1:35:16
to bring them into the present.
1:35:17
Like, literally-
1:35:19
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
1:35:20
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: what is that bug?
1:35:21
You know, what is that cloud system?
1:35:23
Is it going to rain?
1:35:24
You know, where is the wind coming from?
1:35:27
Is itâ¦
1:35:28
What's the weather t- you know.
1:35:29
But she would, I think, also agree with you that if you do it with a horse,
1:35:37
the horse really is that anchor to the present moment because there's something,
1:35:42
I think, in the human that says, "I am with a really big animal right now, and
1:35:48
I need to pay attention in a way that I don't normally need to pay attention."
1:35:54
Krisztina Molnar: And there are so many stimulate coming out from the
1:35:57
horse- Mm-hmm â¦ that you need to pay attention, as you said.
1:36:00
That it, it, it helps you to, to keep you in the real moment
1:36:10
Rupert Isaacson: All right, so finally, we know that you're also a dressage person.
1:36:15
Yeah.
1:36:15
Kind of.
1:36:16
And so am I.
1:36:17
In a different way maybe, but I am.
1:36:20
What, for you, is the helpful role of that kind of approach and training with
1:36:27
horses, let's say that culture with horses, to the work that you're doing?
1:36:38
Krisztina Molnar: Maybe I should I should think of my concept of dressage,
1:36:41
which is somehow about harmony.
1:36:45
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:36:46
Krisztina Molnar: And, and
1:36:49
maintaining harmony somehow in, in a changing circumstance, ch- changing
1:36:57
balance from second to second.
1:36:59
Mm.
1:36:59
And still maintaining harmony.
1:37:01
Mm.
1:37:01
Which needs I think, a wonderful pre- presence from, from the horse and from the
1:37:08
rider too, and and constant rebalancing-
1:37:15
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:37:16
Krisztina Molnar: somehow.
1:37:17
And and I think that's, you know, when it's not working like that, and most
1:37:23
of the time it's not working like that, that's why we work so much to work like
1:37:26
that, that you feel the most balanced way, the most harmonious way- Mm â¦ and most
1:37:33
harmonious cooperation with the horse in, in, probably in a quiet, collective way.
1:37:41
Mm.
1:37:41
But you work a lot for that.
1:37:44
And through that road, there's a huge chance for self-development.
1:37:52
That's my experience.
1:37:54
And, but probably that's an option for me, but for someone else I don't
1:38:00
know, playing tennis can be the same, or playing basketball, or running, or
1:38:09
playing football can mean the same.
1:38:13
Rupert Isaacson: I'm skeptical actually that it would mean the same.
1:38:16
But I, but I'll tell you why.
1:38:18
I think that there is something special about having to work with another animal
1:38:23
because it's not just you and your nervous system and your brain trying to
1:38:31
figure out this balance or this skill.
1:38:37
It's you and this other nervous system and brain.
1:38:42
There's a partnership, but the partner does not understand you.
1:38:47
And then let's say dogs, you have therapy dogs, right?
1:38:51
But we know that dogs see life, and humans see li- Dogs see life a
1:38:58
little bit like humans, and humans see life a little bit like dogs.
1:39:02
Dogs domesticated themselves voluntarily with humans.
1:39:07
It's relatively easy for most humans to get along with a dog.
1:39:11
There's a lot of similarities.
1:39:13
We're s- we're social predators who strategize together and, yeah.
1:39:18
But horses-
1:39:21
aliens, man.
1:39:22
You know, we are the alien monkeys, you know, and we come
1:39:25
down with our alien monkey ideas.
1:39:28
You know, first it's I'm gonna eat you, and then it's, then that comes
1:39:32
to I'm gonna ride you, you know, somewhere about 6,000 years ago and
1:39:36
the horse is like, "Well, okay."
1:39:38
And now every herbivore is born completely wild, right?
1:39:42
You know, not like a puppy or a kitten that's born in your house
1:39:45
that domesticates because the mother and the father are domesticated.
1:39:49
The horse has to be domesticated every time.
1:39:52
And then This monkey comes up with the idea of getting on the back of this thing,
1:40:01
which was not designed for a monkey.
1:40:05
And now we're monkeys who we do everything with our hands, and we do everything with
1:40:10
our eyes, and our balance is weird 'cause we're heavy up here, and this thing is
1:40:16
like this, and we're gonna make that work.
1:40:20
Oh, and this thing is terrified of us, or at least skeptical.
1:40:27
But it does work.
1:40:28
We make it work.
1:40:29
It's a miracle.
1:40:30
We somehow cross another magical barrier.
1:40:37
That is a fairy tale, I think.
1:40:39
Mm.
1:40:39
And it's a, it's a miracle that happens every time you get on the horse.
1:40:43
And I liked what you said about the loss of balance and the retrieval of balance,
1:40:50
that, you know, some people think of riding as you must always be in balance.
1:40:55
We know that's not possible.
1:40:57
So we know that it's the loss and retrieval that is the miracle,
1:41:04
that that's the ecstasy, that's the that we can take this risk
1:41:10
together and be carried by this- Mm â¦ mythological being almost, the horse.
1:41:16
So yeah, I think that there's something a bit more special,
1:41:20
you know, than playing tennis.
1:41:21
Not that I have anything bad to say about tennis.
1:41:25
It'sâ¦
1:41:26
But if the, if the tennis racket and the ball had their own minds, okay, maybe.
1:41:32
So-
1:41:33
Krisztina Molnar: There's an aspect.
1:41:34
There's, there's an aspect, let's say.
1:41:36
Rupert Isaacson: Well, okay, fair enough.
1:41:37
Yeah.
1:41:37
Especially if I'm playing tennis.
1:41:39
But okay.
1:41:39
So, but the, but the dressage, okay, you, you talk about balance and the soft
1:41:42
collection, and I like that too because what are we trying to do with emotional
1:41:47
regulation but collect ourselves?
1:41:51
We need sometimes to be able to really wah, but then we need
1:41:55
to collect ourselves again.
1:41:57
'Cause if we spend all our time in brr, well, the police would probably have
1:42:01
something to say about that, you know.
1:42:05
So your horses go through, your therapy horses go through a c- a
1:42:09
certain amount of this training.
1:42:12
When you were first working in the therapeutic environment with horses,
1:42:18
probably you were working with horses that did not have so much of this training.
1:42:23
What difference do you observe in the horses?
1:42:30
Krisztina Molnar: I'm not sure that it, it actually, the difference
1:42:33
actually depends on, on the dressage training or not in terms of my horses.
1:42:42
Go ahead.
1:42:42
Because my I know you have very, very well-trained horses, and I do not have
1:42:49
the same training level with my ones.
1:42:52
But what comes to my mind is, mm, the difference I can observe
1:42:59
is normally by on, on the basis of the personality of a horse.
1:43:05
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:43:06
Krisztina Molnar: But the truth is the main training-
1:43:13
Any kind of training you, you use or you put into your horse or
1:43:17
you work on with your horse the more situations they can handle
1:43:22
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:43:23
Krisztina Molnar: That's for sure.
1:43:24
Mm-hmm.
1:43:24
And it, it can be dressage too, but it can also be groundwork, or and it can
1:43:31
also be natural horsemanship exercises-
1:43:35
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
1:43:35
Krisztina Molnar: uh, and or, or, or anything else, or-
1:43:42
Rupert Isaacson: I, I would argue that those exercises- It's just- â¦ are
1:43:44
actually a form of dressage.
1:43:46
They are just- Mm-hmm â¦ the beginning forms of dressage.
1:43:49
Mm-hmm.
1:43:49
But I think natural horsemanship and groundwork, they are dressage.
1:43:53
Yeah â¦ just not at the higher level, but they're still- Yeah,
1:43:58
Krisztina Molnar: you're right
1:43:58
Rupert Isaacson: more or less doing the same thing, yeah.
1:44:01
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah, you're right.
1:44:02
So actually, mm- Actually, I cannot experience at my level of, of dressage
1:44:11
knowledge of my horses a difference on the basis of how trained they are in dressage.
1:44:17
But truth to be told, that we, i- in the therapies, most of the time,
1:44:23
we only use walk as a placement.
1:44:26
Mm-hmm.
1:44:26
So, there you don't really have difference some- somehow in collection
1:44:34
and so on, and there's only very few therapies in our therapy qutine-
1:44:40
thera- therapeutic routine right now- Mm â¦ where we use canter, for example.
1:44:47
That's very rare.
1:44:48
Mm.
1:44:49
But for that, I would much more likely to choose a better dressage horse- Mm-hmm
1:44:56
who can canter very correctly collected, collected canter- Mm â¦ she has.
1:45:01
And I can be 100% sure that the child can sit safe-
1:45:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:45:09
â¦ Krisztina Molnar: on the top.
1:45:10
That's true.
1:45:11
But we, most of the time, we use the walk.
1:45:16
Because when you go out to the forest, normally we in, in, in our tradition or
1:45:22
in our concepts- Mm â¦ so far it worked mostly the same, that you lead the horse.
1:45:29
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:45:29
Krisztina Molnar: With
1:45:30
Rupert Isaacson: the kid.
1:45:30
I'd be interested to see as you, as you delve into it if you
1:45:33
begin to notice some differences.
1:45:35
Krisztina Molnar: Mm
1:45:35
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you can, you can train, for example, a very collected
1:45:39
slow trot into most horses, right?
1:45:42
Mm.
1:45:43
And then if you- Yes, yeah â¦ instead of being in front of the horse
1:45:46
or at the head of the horse-
1:45:47
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
1:45:48
Rupert Isaacson: while you, you would just go back a little
1:45:50
bit, you're at the shoulder.
1:45:51
And you can create underneath the rider a lot of oxytocin, for example.
1:45:59
And that's a communication hormone.
1:46:02
We also know it's going to soothe the nervous system.
1:46:05
But equally, when a horse is moving in that way, they're going to develop
1:46:08
muscle in a way that they might not if they're just walking on the shoulders.
1:46:14
The, there's also, there's another type of walk, which is really fun to explore,
1:46:19
and of course, that's the piaffe.
1:46:21
Yeah â¦ even though people argue, is it a trot?
1:46:23
Is it a walk?
1:46:24
Let's go with Nuno Oliveira, who says it's a type of walk.
1:46:27
I have a feeling that I know the training that you're doing right
1:46:30
now because we're working together.
1:46:31
I, I have a feeling that you're going to find within a year or so that your
1:46:36
horses are doing this, and then I'll be interested to see what you come back with.
1:46:42
Because there's nothing wrong with just working at the walk.
1:46:44
Working at the walk still gets you so much.
1:46:47
It's just that, hey, why not be curious?
1:46:50
But I think what you said about emotional regulation is really true, that the
1:46:56
horses need to go through, if you like, personal development, self-development-
1:47:01
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
1:47:01
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: in the same way that humans do.
1:47:03
Particularly if they're going to be working with people who
1:47:07
need that the horse needs to be going through that as well.
1:47:11
And I know for a fact that you are doing that, so I'm really
1:47:15
looking forward to seeing it.
1:47:17
So we are sort of approaching the two-hour mark here.
1:47:21
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
1:47:24
Rupert Isaacson: So I think I would like to have you back on the show.
1:47:29
Oh
1:47:29
Krisztina Molnar: my God.
1:47:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:47:31
Krisztina Molnar: Okay.
1:47:31
Rupert Isaacson: And I'd like to go a little bit deeper into this
1:47:35
neuroscience of imagination, which-
1:47:40
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
1:47:40
Rupert Isaacson: I loved that.
1:47:42
And I want to develop this more in my programs, I think.
1:47:46
So before we close- Mm-hmm â¦ could you tell us a story
1:47:56
Tell us a story of a fairy tale from your forest.
1:48:01
Tell us a story of an encounter, imaginary or not, with
1:48:09
forest and story-
1:48:12
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
1:48:12
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: that we can take away as listeners from this conversation?
1:48:18
Krisztina Molnar: Do you mean kind of technique or therapy sessions that
1:48:25
Rupert Isaacson: can work?
1:48:25
I think the, the technique will come out through the story, and I think the
1:48:29
therapy session is probably the context.
1:48:32
Mm-hmm.
1:48:32
But the story is the story.
1:48:34
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
1:48:39
Let me think.
1:48:40
Because normally I don't really tell anything about how the
1:48:46
fairies come, came to the forest.
1:48:50
They have always been around.
1:48:52
That's not a question.
1:48:54
And-
1:48:54
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed
1:48:55
â¦ Krisztina Molnar: and,
1:48:56
Rupert Isaacson: But the story is one of your encounters with this
1:49:03
Frequency vibration and energy
1:49:06
Krisztina Molnar: I think I've already told you the story.
1:49:10
That's when I
1:49:15
I have always loved the forest.
1:49:17
And when you love the forest, then probably you can find
1:49:22
fairies anywhere, in any forest
1:49:26
And when I had the desire to, to have a life before the foundation, to have
1:49:33
a life like what I I can live now together with my horses very, very
1:49:40
close to nature and to my natural self, then m- then I asked in every forest,
1:49:49
every fairy to have an option for that.
1:49:53
And then finally as, as in the fairy tales and as in the therapies I teach,
1:49:59
when you actually really need something from the fairies, then they will give
1:50:05
you, but they ha- you have to ask for it because they cannot read your mind.
1:50:10
So first of all, you have to somehow ask for their help, and I asked their help.
1:50:18
And then finally I found myself living in a forest surrounded by
1:50:28
fairies and surrounded by horses that I have never imagined to have, and
1:50:38
and wonderful colleagues like Naroon or you or my Hungarian colleagues
1:50:44
that I have never imagined to work with and options and chances I have
1:50:52
never imagined to be able to serve.
1:50:55
And I think that's my fairy tale, which is kind of real-life fairy tale.
1:51:01
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:51:02
Krisztina Molnar: So I can't say anything more magical than that.
1:51:06
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:51:07
That's beautiful.
1:51:10
I think we'll leave it there.
1:51:12
Krisztina Molnar: Okay.
1:51:12
Rupert Isaacson: And I really look forward to seeing you in
1:51:14
that forest in a few weeks.
1:51:18
Krisztina Molnar: I really hope so.
1:51:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:51:20
I'm, I'm very much looking forward to it.
1:51:22
Yeah.
1:51:22
Okay.
1:51:23
People might want to contact you and ask you more about your work.
1:51:27
How can they find you?
1:51:29
Krisztina Molnar: Okay.
1:51:30
We have a website that you, you actually have, or Ileana has it.
1:51:38
So they can find my email address or phone number on, on our website
1:51:44
Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us the name of the website, please?
1:51:48
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
1:51:49
Is it easier to put it down?
1:51:51
Rupert Isaacson: Well, we will have it in- Because- We will
1:51:53
have it in the show notes anyway.
1:51:55
But is, is it- Yeah â¦ a very difficult Hungarian name- â¦ or is it?
1:51:59
Krisztina Molnar: It's, No.
1:52:01
I, I have no idea if it's difficult for non-Hungarians.
1:52:04
Rupert Isaacson: Let's
1:52:05
Krisztina Molnar: give it a
1:52:05
Rupert Isaacson: try.
1:52:05
But
1:52:05
Krisztina Molnar: it's Electra Value.
1:52:07
It's Electra Value Debrecen dot com, I think.
1:52:12
Rupert Isaacson: Can you go a little more slowly, please?
1:52:16
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
1:52:17
Wait, I have to double-check it because actually I don't
1:52:20
know exactly the website name.
1:52:24
Okay.
1:52:24
That's for sure, Electra Value Debrecen.
1:52:26
Debrecen is the place where we are located.
1:52:28
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:52:35
Krisztina Molnar: Let meâ¦
1:52:36
Yes.
1:52:37
It's www.eletrevalodedbretem.com
1:52:43
Rupert Isaacson: Can you just spell that slowly-
1:52:46
Krisztina Molnar: Yes
1:52:47
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: please?
1:52:47
Krisztina Molnar: Eletrevalo, that's
1:52:56
E-L-E-T-R-E-V-A-L-O-D-E
1:53:10
Rupert Isaacson: E
1:53:11
Krisztina Molnar: B
1:53:12
Rupert Isaacson: B
1:53:13
Krisztina Molnar: Yes.
1:53:14
B-R-E-C-E-N.com
1:53:27
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:53:28
Elektravalo Balod.
1:53:35
Elektravalo-
1:53:38
Krisztina Molnar: Yes, so far so
1:53:38
Rupert Isaacson: good â¦ Balod- balodbretsen.com.
1:53:46
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
1:53:46
Rupert Isaacson: Kinda?
1:53:46
Or sort
1:53:48
Krisztina Molnar: of â¦ but I think, I think so.
1:53:49
I'm not sure.
1:53:50
All right.
1:53:50
But, uh
1:53:51
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
1:53:52
Krisztina Molnar: I tell you what- I, I, I'll also send to you
1:53:53
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: we will have it in theâ¦
1:53:56
Yeah, send it to me, and we'llâ¦
1:53:57
or 'cause we'll have it in the show notes.
1:53:58
But, but listeners and viewers, as you can see Christina speaks very
1:54:02
good English, and I correspond with her a lot by text and email.
1:54:07
So if you getâ¦
1:54:09
If you send her an email on that, she will respond to you inâ¦
1:54:12
or she will get her fairies to respond to you at any rate, in, in a-
1:54:16
Yeah â¦ in English that is very clear.
1:54:18
And I think a lot of people will want to know how to talk to you about what you do.
1:54:23
I'm gonna, I'm gonna read it out again.
1:54:27
www.E-L-E-T-R-E-V-A-L-O-D-E-B-R-E-C-E-N.com.
1:54:44
Elektrevalodebrecen.com.
1:54:51
Krisztina Molnar: Ah, that was perfect.
1:54:54
Rupert Isaacson: And yeah, shoot her an email there and find out more.
1:54:58
All right, my friend.
1:54:58
Krisztina Molnar: Thank you very much for your fam- for your friendship and
1:55:02
for your time and for your conversation.
1:55:04
That was
1:55:04
Rupert Isaacson: very exciting.
1:55:05
Krisztina Molnar: Likewise.
1:55:05
Rupert Isaacson: Likewise.
1:55:06
It was, it was a brilliant conversation.
1:55:08
I'm going to go off and talk to fairies.
1:55:10
All right.
1:55:11
I will see you-
1:55:12
Krisztina Molnar: Bye
1:55:13
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: soon
1:55:14
in that forest.
1:55:14
Bye.
1:55:14
Bye bye.
1:55:15
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
1:55:18
If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.
1:55:23
It so helps us to get this valuable work done and the message of
1:55:27
Equine Assisted Stuff out there.
1:55:29
And if you're interested in more conversations, you might want to check
1:55:32
out I'll live free ride free podcast.
1:55:36
And if you'd like to support the podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.
1:55:40
com and click on the Patreon link.
1:55:44
If you're a professional in the equine assisted field or considering a career
1:55:47
in the equine assisted field, you might want to check out our three
1:55:51
certification programs, horseboy method, movement method, and taquin.
1:55:57
Equine integration.
1:55:59
You can find all of those over on new Trails learning.com.
1:56:04
And finally, if you want to check out our cool rock and roll themed
1:56:07
merch back on rupert isaacson.com,
1:56:10
please click on Shop.
1:56:12
You'll find all kinds of fun goodies there.
1:56:13
And if you're looking for a way to spend time until the next podcast, you might
1:56:19
want to consider reading the books that kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the
1:56:23
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.
1:56:26
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.
1:56:28
world.
1:56:28
Join us for the adventure.