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Does My Teen Need Therapy? with Jarrod Hoffman · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. Five, four, three, two, one.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: have as my guest today, Jared Hoffman. Jared, welcome. Thanks.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Glad to be here.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: All right. So Jared is a licensed professional counselor and
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: mental health service provider who works with teens and adults
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: experiencing ongoing challenges with depression and anxiety. His path to
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: becoming a therapist was shaped by his own experiences with grief, anxiety, depression, addiction,
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  Speaker 1: job loss, and purposelessness, as well as finding healing through counseling.
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  Speaker 1: He's worked more than 10,000 hours with children and families
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  Speaker 1: across settings, including churches, universities, prison contracts, and schools. Art Jarrett,
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  Speaker 1: just a little bit about you. Before we get going,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: share with our listeners where you're from originally and where
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: you are currently.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: That's great. That's a great question. I'm from Jacksonville, Florida.
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  Speaker 3: So when I moved to Memphis, I kept calling Arkansas, Arizona,
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  Speaker 3: because I just thought it was out there at some
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  Speaker 3: point in the West. And here I am in Memphis,
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  Speaker 3: right across the river from Arkansas.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: I get it right now.
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  Speaker 1: Very cool. Very cool. So you work primarily with teens, right? Yes,
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  Speaker 1: I do. Okay.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: How did all this start for you?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think most people's work is coming to terms
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  Speaker 3: with their own story. And so my story was just
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  Speaker 3: that I was 10 years old when my parents got divorced.
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  Speaker 3: I was 11 when I saw porn for the first time.
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  Speaker 3: And I didn't see a counselor until I was 25
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  Speaker 3: years old. And I've listened to enough of your podcasts
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: to know that that's not the whole story. And there's
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: some extra details in there. That was very quick.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the whole story. So your parents' divorce
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: obviously had a huge impact on you. And you said
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  Speaker 1: you were how old, 11?
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  Speaker 2: I was 10.
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  Speaker 1: I was 10. Okay. That's young, obviously. So how did
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: that impact you?
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  Speaker 2: You know, I wrote that.
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  Speaker 3: Literally actually wrote that as like a what intro what
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  Speaker 3: elevator pitch do I have when I speak or when
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  Speaker 3: I meet somebody they ask what you do and I
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  Speaker 3: share this thing and and it was it took a
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  Speaker 3: long time even as an adult in the last two
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  Speaker 3: or three years to realize that the sentences I was
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  Speaker 3: 10 when my parents got divorced and I saw porn
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  Speaker 3: for the first time at 11 are very close you
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  Speaker 3: know sentence one sentence two but that they're very connected
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  Speaker 3: and so when I was 10 maybe on average 10-year-olds
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  Speaker 3: can experience this, but in divorce and seeing content that
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  Speaker 3: you weren't ready for.
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  Speaker 2: I experienced a lot of isolation.
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  Speaker 3: It's a tough thing to be in between two homes
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  Speaker 3: and maybe not feeling connected in general to parents.
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  Speaker 2: I don't think I had a whole lot of mentors
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  Speaker 2: in my life.
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  Speaker 3: And so How'd that get me to do the work
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: that I'm doing right now? It's like, okay, I'm in a,
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: in a counseling program and they're asking me who I
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: want to work with. And the reality is I just
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: want to work with who I wish I had back
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: in that time period.
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  Speaker 1: So you're 10, 11. How, how are things unfolding for you?
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  Speaker 1: How are you managing? Is it even, is it even
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  Speaker 1: a conscious, conscious for you? You know?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. I struggle to remember some of those things, right?
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  Speaker 3: It was a long time ago. How was I managing?
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  Speaker 2: Maybe around 13, 14, 15, porn was a way I
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: was managing. So was that with friends?
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  Speaker 3: Managing in terms of, like, I have all these complex feelings,
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: complex life circumstances, right?
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  Speaker 2: That was not the... You know, my mom.
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  Speaker 3: got remarried and I had a stepdad and there was
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  Speaker 3: a lot going on during that time. And so one
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  Speaker 3: of the ways that I was managing was managing that
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  Speaker 3: kind of self-medicating that was looking at things that kind
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  Speaker 3: of caused me to not think for a little while.
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  Speaker 1: Um, so let me just interject for a second. So
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  Speaker 1: help me understand here. That's to me, I remember when
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I was, uh, the first time I looked at like
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: a Playboy magazine was maybe like older than, older than 11.
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  Speaker 1: So what was your experience at that young of an age?
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  Speaker 1: Was it a sexual thing? You know? Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: For me, I remember just being like confused why in
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: this case, someone emailed me this picture of, Someone that
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  Speaker 3: I did not know how they found my email, why
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  Speaker 3: I was allowed to be on AOL.
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  Speaker 2: I have no idea.
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  Speaker 1: Right, right.
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  Speaker 3: I remember feeling confused and then there's the shame and
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  Speaker 3: guilt of like, did I do something wrong? This is
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  Speaker 3: interesting to me because developmentally it makes sense that I
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  Speaker 3: would be curious. But I don't have any memory of
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  Speaker 3: like sharing that moment with anybody. And so that was
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  Speaker 3: a very hidden thing.
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  Speaker 1: Right. So the years go on, teens, how were you
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: managing as a teen?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, probably part one would be that sphere. Part two
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  Speaker 3: would be this sphere to achieve. I received that from
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  Speaker 3: my dad as this, you have value if you get A's,
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  Speaker 3: if you.
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  Speaker 2: Achieve in school, if you do the right sports thing.
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  Speaker 2: if you are the right person, right?
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  Speaker 3: And so here I am stuck with this shame, and
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  Speaker 3: one way I medicate is to look at porn, but
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  Speaker 3: also this other way that I medicate is like, hey,
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  Speaker 3: maybe I can.
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  Speaker 2: Solve this if I.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: Get A's, if I am good enough in these other
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  Speaker 3: academic or social ways.
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  Speaker 1: And did that work? Or to what extent did that work?
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  Speaker 3: I said that I saw a counselor at 25, so
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: it certainly didn't work until 25.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So what was your relationship with your parents at
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: that time, during 15, 16, 17, et cetera?
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  Speaker 2: I remember them being busy.
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  Speaker 3: You know, my dad had a job at a school,
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: and my mom was building her accounting practice.
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  Speaker 2: And so it's challenging because I think.
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  Speaker 3: In my work with teens, I see that there's ups
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: and downs and there's seasons to a relationship with.
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  Speaker 2: Your parents, right?
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  Speaker 3: I don't expect that any teenager is as close as
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: they ever could be to their parent in a phase
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  Speaker 3: where they are actually undergoing this change to find out
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  Speaker 3: who they are and their identity apart from their parent.
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  Speaker 2: And so for me, I remember.
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  Speaker 3: Trying to please my dad And probably failing and having
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: to figure that out for my mom, probably just navigating
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  Speaker 3: what is my relationship with someone who works all the
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: time to provide for us. And so certainly in an
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: adult life, I've navigated those and counseling has been part
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  Speaker 3: of that.
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  Speaker 1: So you, at some point, I mean, you go through
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  Speaker 1: high school, you go to college, what are you thinking
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  Speaker 1: when you go to college what is interesting you or.
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  Speaker 3: Pulling yeah yeah uh this is maybe another reason you
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  Speaker 3: know my story is so interwoven with my work right
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  Speaker 3: now i i what you hear about teen boys right
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  Speaker 3: now is this that they're not academically succeeding that they're
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  Speaker 3: actually lagging behind and and um richard reeves talks about
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  Speaker 3: how there's this there's obviously these stem uh collegiate like focuses, right? Science, technology, math, engineering.
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  Speaker 3: And there's also these helping careers. And I felt actually
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  Speaker 3: pushed toward a math program because what I heard was
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: like engineering, math, that's where guys go and that's how
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: they get a good job and they make enough money.
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  Speaker 2: What made you laugh at that?
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  Speaker 1: It's just so typical and it's not necessarily true. Right.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: And most of my friends who got that engineering degree,
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  Speaker 3: they don't really like their work-life balance.
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  Speaker 2: They don't really like the work that they do. Some
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  Speaker 2: of them do.
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  Speaker 3: And so if you would have sat in front of
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  Speaker 3: me in high school, you would have seen this guy
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  Speaker 3: likes talking to people. He likes being around people. And
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  Speaker 3: so unfortunately– Or fortunately, I majored in math and I
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  Speaker 3: was terrible at it, awful. And then I started working
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  Speaker 3: with people and it became obvious, especially after getting my
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  Speaker 3: own counseling, like I can do this for a living.
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  Speaker 3: I can make a living talking to and helping people.
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  Speaker 3: And so, yeah, in college, I was stuck on this
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  Speaker 3: kind of like cultural thing. lens that I didn't know
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  Speaker 3: I had. And I didn't know it was an option
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  Speaker 3: to question because I think in the helping professions, what
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  Speaker 3: boys hear often is like, you could, you know, maybe
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  Speaker 3: you'd be less than actually, if you did this. And, uh,
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  Speaker 3: which was ironic because here I am achieving and my
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  Speaker 3: dad is, is actually, um, uh, working among mostly women
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  Speaker 3: in an elementary school providing, speech and language pathology to
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  Speaker 3: children the opposite of what the expectations are of maybe
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  Speaker 3: a man's work.
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  Speaker 1: I want to get there I guess you said you
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  Speaker 1: didn't get into counseling until 25 how are you managing
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  Speaker 1: up until that point yes that saved you. Maybe it did,
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  Speaker 1: but what's going on? How are you not getting into
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  Speaker 1: counseling before then?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Um, you know, as I, as I'm speaking to you
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  Speaker 3: and sitting with this story with some of your questions,
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  Speaker 3: I'm wondering, like, even when I look back on my
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  Speaker 3: college experience, like no wonder I had such, such things
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  Speaker 3: to manage. I I'm in a major that I do
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  Speaker 3: not like that is put on me by someone else.
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  Speaker 3: And so the kind of the crazy part to that
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  Speaker 3: story is that I was living in a small liberal
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  Speaker 3: arts college, right, that I attended.
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  Speaker 2: I was living.
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  Speaker 3: Three literal doors down from the counseling office. And so from,
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: you know, ages, I think it was 19 to 21
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  Speaker 3: or something, I.
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  Speaker 2: Could walk to free therapy.
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  Speaker 3: Right. I just didn't know that it would apply to me.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't know that I had any need of it.
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  Speaker 3: It's what makes work challenging as a therapist is it's
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  Speaker 3: not the therapy always that's the hard part. It's the
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  Speaker 3: marketing of the therapy, trying to get somebody to a
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  Speaker 3: place where they realize that they even need it and
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  Speaker 3: you are a potential solution.
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  Speaker 2: So, yeah, that's where I was.
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  Speaker 1: So at some point you decide to go.
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  Speaker 2: So then.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, I got a job in, you know, classic youth ministry.
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  Speaker 3: People will get jobs because they had nothing else to
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: do and they're free and very energetic labor a lot
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  Speaker 3: of times. And so here I am hanging out with
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: students all day and supporting their families and loving every
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  Speaker 3: second of it. But I'm also, I've got this anxiety
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: and this depression and that's arisen through the story of
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  Speaker 3: untreated trauma, right? And I'm putting on a good face
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  Speaker 3: and I'm doing everything I can, everything I know of
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  Speaker 3: to kind of combat this growing problem with pornography. And
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  Speaker 3: so it wasn't until I started realizing that some of
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  Speaker 3: the behaviors that I was doing in attempting to look
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  Speaker 3: at pornography were very similar, if not the exact same
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: behaviors that I grew up thinking a drug addict did,
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  Speaker 3: spending money. saying they'll quit over and over and over,
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: pushing past boundaries that you thought you would never do.
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  Speaker 3: That was my story. And honestly, I didn't have a
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: whole lot of money myself to pay for counseling. And
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  Speaker 3: it came up to my job had like my yearly evaluation.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: And I said, I know.
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  Speaker 3: Interns don't ask for money, ask for extra money or raise,
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  Speaker 3: but I would love a raise in the form of
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: you paying for counseling. And my boss took it to
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: his boss, and they said, absolutely. And so I was
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  Speaker 3: able to– there was a volunteer in the youth ministry
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  Speaker 3: who was actually a therapist herself, and I asked her,
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  Speaker 3: who do I go to? And she said, it's this guy.
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  Speaker 3: This is who you go to. And I didn't know anything,
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  Speaker 3: how to choose, ended up in his office, and.
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  Speaker 2: It was life-changing.
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  Speaker 1: It really was. That is incredible.
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  Speaker 2: As you would know, right? Like, you've talked to enough people.
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  Speaker 1: So at what point do you decide to– become a counselor.
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  Speaker 2: I feel like there was a little bit more to
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: that question.
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  Speaker 1: No, that's it. I want to start talking about your
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  Speaker 1: work now. How did you decide to shift gears? Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: You know, there's these tracks, right, that everybody kind of
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  Speaker 3: expects of you. I took another job in this youth
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  Speaker 3: ministry arena, and the next thing that people expect there
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  Speaker 3: is to go to seminary, and it just didn't really
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  Speaker 3: interest me. I looked at the case or, you know,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: the courses, I'm like, I just don't want to study
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: that for three to five years. And then I was
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: looking over here and on the, like the coursework for counseling,
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: which I had considered for maybe a few years and
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: applied even to a school and didn't get in, in Georgia. And,
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  Speaker 3: and so wondering, is this the path? And just looking
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: at the coursework and I'm like, this is what I
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: deal with. Like, not that that other stuff isn't bad,
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: but what I'm dealing with is why am I referring
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: this child to a therapist? Why can't we deal with this?
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  Speaker 3: what's going on? Where are the places in these youth's
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  Speaker 3: lives that we can't quite access because I don't have
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: the training? I don't even know what to look for.
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  Speaker 3: And so that was a point where I decided, you
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: know what, I think I'm going to give the next
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: couple of years of my educational life.
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  Speaker 2: To therapy, right?
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: And so entered a clinical mental health counseling program at the.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: When we think about that, I always thought myself as
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: a bad student, right? I wasn't paying attention. I just
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: didn't love school. That totally changed for me. And so
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: if there's any takeaway from anyone listening, if you're on
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: the verge of deciding what to do with your life,
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: pursue what interests you. You're going to make it a
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: whole lot better in class. I didn't struggle with grades.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: I didn't struggle with effort once I got in that program.
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  Speaker 3: And then It was only a matter of time. I
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: did my practicum and my internship and started actually doing
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: therapy after a couple of years in the program and
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: realized that you can actually build a business from this
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: and you can build a life from this.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm laughing.
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  Speaker 3: Because of all the other routes that I took that
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: had maybe math associations. I'm like, I would have just
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: never lasted anyway.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: So why teens? I mean, we can surmise from listening
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: to your story, but specifically, what was it about working with,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: with teens?
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: One of the things that I love about teens and,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: and children, and actually a pain point in my, in
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: my business.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Is that they get better. They get better quickly.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: I actually have a problem in my practice that I
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: don't see them for very long because when given the
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: tools and when the intervention happens closer to the actual
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: point of pain and suffering there's less to have to
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: heal right and so when I was 25 I was
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: talking about the painful moments and experiences from when I
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: was 10 12 14 10 years or more removed from
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: those moments and so the beautiful thing about working with
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: teens one of them is that they they're there it's
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: in that moment where it's happening and I actually work
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: in a school a few hours a week and And
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: so even more so in vivo, like what is happening
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: with your teacher right now? What happened in the conversation
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: with your parent in the car on the way to school?
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: And so that is just one of the things I
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: love about working with teenagers, not to mention that they're
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: open and willing to have these conversations that, you know,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: might take a couple of sessions to be able to,
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: to break down barriers and get people used to it
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: as an adult doing therapy.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think, um, societally and correct me
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: from wrong here. We have this idea that teens don't
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: want to talk, especially don't want to talk about this stuff.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Don't even want to go to therapy. And granted there
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: are people who do kids who do, but generally speaking,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: what's your experience.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: And I believe you worked originally with teens in acute
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: settings too, right?
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: What's your perspective?
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, it was amazing. It was amazing. And it was
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: an incredible learning experience for me because not unlike what
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: you're sharing here, I found the exciting point to be
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: as a therapist, you have to be in the moment
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: and you can't bring your baggage in. You can't bring all,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: you know, obviously you have to know what you're doing
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: and have your suitcase of tools and interventions, but you
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: can't just be clutching so hard to that. You have
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: to be a person and be willing to engage with
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: these humans. And that brings up a whole bag of
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: questions and challenges, but it was an incredible experience for me.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: It was a wake-up call for me.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's the theme of what is making it hard
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: for teenagers to talk.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: We're so bad at that.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: We're so bad at sitting in the now And if
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: I'm a parent and I'm trying to connect with my teen,
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: but I'm distracted because we have to get you to
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: the next practice and we have the tutor coming to
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: our house and I'm busy checking my email and all
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: the things that distract us from being present. I mean,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: a teenager is going to pick up on that. They
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: know I could probably be talking and my parents not actually,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: not really listening.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: When you first started working with teens, what was your
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: experience like? How were you engaging? Were you that aware
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: of what was kind of important or what?
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: I think that I've been working with them for a
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: long time and it's definitely changed. Maybe what I did naturally,
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: I now have a language for. because I was maybe
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: closer to their age. I was less, you know, I
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: didn't have children of my own to make me tired
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: during the day. What you said, teens don't want to
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: talk today. It's an interesting thing through the lens of
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: trauma and the lens of developmentally appropriate language and experiences.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Teens don't always talk with words, right? And so do
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: my teenagers that are sitting in my room talk to
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: me as much as they would their parents?
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they don't.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: I do sand tray, EMDR. I have a Nerf basketball hoop, right?
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: The things that we're doing aren't always language based. It's communication,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: but it's not always through words. And so with a
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: play therapy background, in some ways we treat the anxiety,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: the depression, the addiction by playing. And so if you're
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: a parent who's like, man, my teenager won't talk to me,
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: I usually ask the question like, when's the last time
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: you played a game with them? When's the last time
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: you listened to a song that they like and it
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: didn't end in like, I just, this stuff is.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: So hard for me to engage with. I don't like it.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: When's the last time that you threw a ball with
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: them with nothing else to do. So I find that
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: teenagers talk to me all the time, and they often
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: do not use words.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Wow, I love that. I love that insight. So with
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: the understanding that everyone's different, can you give us an
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: idea of how you work with teens? Maybe reference a
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: specific example. What's your process? Yeah. Yeah.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: There's the training piece, of course, kind of these modalities
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: that I use that are really helpful and I rely on,
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: like you said, the tools, right? You got to have
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: the tools. Curiosity, if there was a word to kind
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: of share why I'm able to make progress with them,
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: it's because it might be the first person that they've
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: experienced in a year that truly seems curious about what
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: they're what they're doing, what they're up to, what they're
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: interested in. I find that parents come in and they
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: have this idea of what we need to be talking about.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: And we talk about something totally different because the, the
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: reason that they're there isn't because they're getting bad grades
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: is because they're being bullied and they haven't been able
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: to share that with someone. The reason that there isn't
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: because they're really in conflict with their parent because they
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: have this unseen addiction is.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: So how do you create the space where that opens up,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: where that unfolds? What do you do and not do? Yeah.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: I have a line that I pull from my play
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: therapy where I say in here, you can do just
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: about anything you'd like, you know, just about because you
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: can't quite do anything, right? We can't break the window,
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: but we can throw a Nerf ball at the window.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: I don't think that's going to break it.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: And I've been.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: Fascinated to find that that space alone, a space where
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: they actually have no real constricted expectation on how they talk,
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: on what they talk about, is so freeing. They've maybe
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: never really experienced a room and a person like that.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, from the theory on that, like,
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: I do believe that people want to get better if
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: given the opportunity. And so I just know that if
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: I open that up, they're willing to make the change.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: They're willing to bring out the thing that they really
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: need to address with that non-judgment, really that curiosity stance.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: And from there, I obviously rely on the training of
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: like motivational interviewing in helping reflect back to them what
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: is happening. So if they're in conflict with their parent,
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: I just like, my parent doesn't understand me.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: It's so healing.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: And my own counselor did this. So healing to hear like, wow,
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: you don't feel understood by your parents.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: That's exactly it. That's it.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: I know I'm doing my job well when I hear
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: that's it.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: That's exactly it. I'm like, yes, I did okay today.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: So when we're talking about creating that space where they
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: can do anything, that just sounded to me like from
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: the get-go, you're kind of interrupting a pattern.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's a great way of putting it.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Everywhere else, there are so many restrictions. Here, right from
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the get-go, this is different. Whoa. And that could be
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: very freeing for a lot of people. It's so amazing
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: to me teen experience is there's just so much obviously
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: potential and excitement there. And to find someone as a
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: teen where you can really connect with is huge. It's
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: so huge. And to be able to do that with
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: from your perspective, from a counseling perspective, to be able
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: to Create that space and not relying on words is
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: a whole other thing. That's very powerful to me. What
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: do you find? I mean, there's got to be some
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: challenges that come with the territory. What are some of
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: those for you? What were some of those for you
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: that you learned to navigate?
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, challenges in working with teens particularly.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: I had to get a, this is something that maybe
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: as a, you know, being in the therapy world yourself
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: for so long, you can understand, like I had to
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: get an air purifier to put in my office sometimes.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Like sometimes it can get funky in here with teen boys.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: And so that's something that I don't know if I've
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: ever talked about.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: You know, they talk about building a practice that kind
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: of fits you. and you do your best work in.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: And so I'm not saying it's without its challenges, but
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: I know that I'm in the right work if I
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: actually have to think about that a little bit.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: What are the things?
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: Because I know when I have a couple of teens,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: that is super tiring for a lot of people I
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: work with and I know. But for me, it's like
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: that was a great day. Most of the people you
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: talk to and what is a challenge of working with
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: teens is parents, right? If we're already on an individual
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: basis navigating a difference between kind of how we think
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: and how we behave, how much more if you're involving
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: two or three people in that process? And so, like
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: I said, the parent comes in and they expect this
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: service or this topic or a certain change. And what
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: I have to tell parents a lot of times is like,
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: we can certainly address the conflict with you, but be
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: open to to looking for progress in areas you did
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: not see or expect. And so a lot of times
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: I'll meet with parents and I'll go, what's happening?
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: What are you seeing?
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: Because I want to know and point out, hey, what
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: you just said, you know, that is, that's a big deal.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: Like maybe you came in to talk about something and
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: you're seeing grades improve. Let's be excited about that. We're
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: seeing progress for them.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: It kind of highlights the importance of the family system. Absolutely. Right.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: The kids walking in the door, yeah, but they're bringing
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: the whole family into the system. As we kind of
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: wind down here, the culture in which kids are growing
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: up now, the online culture, is so crazy. How much
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: are you finding... that to be a part of what's
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: going on.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: You asked me the hardest question as we're winding down.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, man.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is there something more specific to that?
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Well, it just feels like, you know, such a weighty topic,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: an obvious topic. You know, we hear so many kids
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: are just stressed out, anxious because of the expectations that
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: online culture has and the pressures and so forth. And
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: I'm just curious if that's a lot of what you're seeing.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah. The thing that comes to mind is what's happened with,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: let's call it, technology.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: And then if we were going to get more specific,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: we might.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: Say screens, is that the capacity for what we can do,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: what we can engage with, is more intensified. we have
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: like a bottom floor of negative behaviors that can go
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: so much further down and we also have a top
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: floor of positive behaviors that can go super high right
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: it's unheard of to think about i have a tool
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: on my laptop on the cheapest laptop that exists to
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: access an artificial intelligence that can teach me literally anything
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: in the entire world at my fingertips. So a 12
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: year old could become an expert on anything to an
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: extent that has never been seen before in history. And
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: a 12 year old can access niche types.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Of porn or, or.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: Groups online that are feeding this need for connection in
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: a way that's super unhealthy, in a way that's never
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: been heard of before, right? We can message our grandmothers
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: and watch content that they used to watch as kids,
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: and we can connect with prostitutes on the very same
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: technology and device.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: So I really think that.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Our capacity for things is just intensified. We're the same people. And,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: and to go to your other point about like the connection,
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: it's like, we're the same people. We want the same thing.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: We want connection. And so teenagers are maybe quote more
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: at risk than they've ever been, but they also have,
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: if we can help them and help ourselves more capacity
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: for connection than, than has ever been had before in history.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: And so I think the stakes are really high, and
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: also the payoff could be really big.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: I love it. I love what you're doing. And to me,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: it's so inspiring and so needed. And, I mean, it's
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: glaringly obvious that you're doing the work right now that
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: you didn't get when you were a kid. I mean, right?
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: It took you– you waited until you were 25, right? Absolutely.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure it's not the first time someone's pointed
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: that out to you. But all right, Jared, how do
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: people learn more about you and the incredible work you're doing?
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: What's the best way?
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: Well, one of them is being on this podcast, and
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: I'm extremely grateful. I've enjoyed this time being with you.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: You're a real person, and I think it shows.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, people can find me on on LinkedIn, it's the
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: social media I feel like doesn't completely, uh, destroy my soul.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: And so LinkedIn, Jared Hoffman. Okay. Um, and then I
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: have a newsletter that's available.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: I give kind of what I'm learning about teens and
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: kind of services that are available through that newsletter. It's
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: on my website, Jared Hoffman.com. And then maybe the last
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: thing is that, uh, actually I give two because of
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: who's possibly listening to this. Um, I have a, an
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: assessment that I made that kind of asks the question,
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: why does my teen or does my teen need therapy?
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: And so parents, maybe even educators can take that quiz
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: and see what comes up for their teens. And it
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: gives a variety of domains as to what's being asked,
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: not just kind of surface level things. And then the
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: other thing that I recently made that I'm very excited
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: about is if there's anyone listening, who's in the process
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: or interested in becoming a therapist, um, So I just
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: broke down my journey in a visual format of what
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: it took to get licensed as a counselor in the
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: state of Tennessee and everything that happened along the way,
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: which is quite a bit. And it's on my website
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: as well under the About section.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Awesome. We'll have those linked up here at the show
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: notes page at the traumatherapistpodcast.com. Jared, loved it. Loved to
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: have you back. And just really appreciate you. And thanks
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: for the time. Right back at you. All right. Take care.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: See you.