Transcript

Sharri | 10 November · Sharri

0:01
Speaker 1: Live on Sky News is Sharry.
0:07
Speaker 2: Good Evening. Tonight on the show a major admission from
0:11
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Police commissioner that even if he'd
0:14
Speaker 2: known about the Neo Nazi rally at Parliament House, he
0:17
Speaker 2: wouldn't have stopped it. The authorities are now under fire.
0:21
Speaker 2: I'll bring you my exclusive interview with the commissioner in
0:25
Speaker 2: a moment. Also in the show, Radio Legend, Ray Hadley
0:28
Speaker 2: shares his memories and rivalries with John Laws and also
0:33
Speaker 2: Graham Richardson. We'll look back at some of the classic
0:36
Speaker 2: moments on air with Richo and the journalists who exposed
0:40
Speaker 2: the BBC trump scoundal will join us to reveal how
0:43
Speaker 2: the broadcaster also sense its stories about the transgender debate.
0:48
Speaker 2: His reporting has now led to the resignation of the
0:51
Speaker 2: top two BBC bosses, and he'll be on the show
0:55
Speaker 2: exclusively a bit later, but first tonight, the Newswell's police
1:00
Speaker 2: commissioner admits that even if he'd known about the Neo
1:04
Speaker 2: Nazi rally at Parliament House, he wouldn't have stopped it.
1:09
Speaker 2: I spoke with Mal Lanyon today and pressed him on
1:12
Speaker 2: why police stood by and watched the Neo Nazis spreading
1:17
Speaker 2: hate without lifting a finger. Had you personally known about
1:23
Speaker 2: the protest, would you have allowed it to go ahead?
1:26
Speaker 1: Well, it's not fair for me to second guess the
1:28
Speaker 1: decision of the Commander at the time, and to be honest,
1:30
Speaker 1: based on the information that was in the form one,
1:32
Speaker 1: based on our legislation and what the previous interactions we've
1:35
Speaker 1: had with the group, the decision was not inappropriate.
1:39
Speaker 3: What I've said very clearly, he wasn't inappropriate.
1:41
Speaker 2: You think the protest should have gone ahead.
1:43
Speaker 1: Based on the legislation, I don't believe we had grounds
1:45
Speaker 1: to oppose it.
1:48
Speaker 2: The National Socialist Network first told police that they were
1:52
Speaker 2: planning to hold the rally on October twenty eight, That
1:55
Speaker 2: was some eleven days ago, yet police didn't do a
1:59
Speaker 2: thing to stop it, and tonight I can also reveal
2:03
Speaker 2: it wasn't just the Police Local Area Command that knew
2:07
Speaker 2: about the Neo Nazi rally, but the Police Legal Unit
2:11
Speaker 2: and its media team were told as well. Three separate
2:15
Speaker 2: arms of police were aware, yet no action was taken
2:20
Speaker 2: and the Commissioner wasn't told. Mal Lanyon himself only found
2:25
Speaker 2: out about this because of a media query from the
2:27
Speaker 2: Sydney Morning Herald to the Premier's office, not because of
2:32
Speaker 2: his own police who were at the rally. So you
2:36
Speaker 2: had police in attendance at a nineteen thirty style Neo
2:40
Speaker 2: Nazi rally, and none of the police thought to inform
2:44
Speaker 2: the executive.
2:45
Speaker 3: Well, it was certainly known within the organization, so.
2:49
Speaker 2: I pressed the Police Commission on all of this. I'll
2:51
Speaker 2: bring you that interview in a moment, and well done
2:54
Speaker 2: to the Cinneymoonning Herald for its very strong and rigorous
2:57
Speaker 2: reporting on this. But the despicable display of Neo Nazis
3:01
Speaker 2: outside Parliament on Saturday shocked us all. They were naked
3:06
Speaker 2: and their hatred for Jews, there's no pretense about it.
3:10
Speaker 2: They claimed that Jews are destroying our nation, along with
3:14
Speaker 2: other false and racist comments. As you can see in
3:37
Speaker 2: the footage, they're not wearing masks as is usually the case,
3:41
Speaker 2: just hats and glasses and they don't bother to hide
3:45
Speaker 2: their faces. It's an open challenge to police and society,
3:51
Speaker 2: and the Police Commissioner has confirmed to me that they
3:54
Speaker 2: do know who these individuals are. They're easily identifiable. And
4:00
Speaker 2: you also heard them chart Hitler youth slogan blood and honor.
4:13
Speaker 2: Now that phrase is banned in Germany because it is
4:16
Speaker 2: from the Hitler youth, and in fact Germany has also
4:19
Speaker 2: banned membership of socialists and Neo Nazi organizations all together,
4:24
Speaker 2: and this to me seems like a sensible course of action.
4:28
Speaker 2: Premier Chris Mens is examining the laws in New South Wales.
4:33
Speaker 4: We have to make sure that our laws are updated
4:37
Speaker 4: and to take on what is a you know, they
4:41
Speaker 4: use a lot of political intrigue in quite a clever
4:44
Speaker 4: political banner in order to have their racist rallies.
4:49
Speaker 2: And he is considering other legislation that maybe needed because
4:54
Speaker 2: clearly this group is promoting and potentially inciting hatred. And
5:00
Speaker 2: proof of this is the fact that Kelly Sloane and
5:03
Speaker 2: Allegras Spender receive death threats for calling them out. We
5:08
Speaker 2: don't know who's responsible for those threats. But there's another
5:12
Speaker 2: point about all of this that infuriates me. The narrative
5:16
Speaker 2: from the neo Nazis is very similar to that of
5:19
Speaker 2: the more extreme pro Palestinian activists, and it's disappointing that
5:25
Speaker 2: many have strongly condemned this protest, including the Greens, when
5:31
Speaker 2: they've been silent in the face of equally hateful messages
5:35
Speaker 2: from Prohomas activists. The left is selective when it comes
5:40
Speaker 2: to hate, and they turn a blind eye to the
5:43
Speaker 2: radical Islamists. Now, hate should be condemned and dealt with,
5:48
Speaker 2: whether it comes from Neo Nazis or Islamist extremists who
5:52
Speaker 2: are embedded in the pro Palestinian organizations, because both are
5:58
Speaker 2: equally damaging and despicable. Now, the interview with mal Lanyon
6:06
Speaker 2: coming up shortly, But now to the devastating news that
6:10
Speaker 2: Graham Richardson passed away on the weekend aged seventy six.
6:15
Speaker 2: He was part of the show here on every Wednesday
6:18
Speaker 2: with Michael Kroger, and each week he'd bring his wit, intellect,
6:24
Speaker 2: strong opinions, and often humor. Even though he was long retired,
6:30
Speaker 2: he was still pulling the strings from behind the scenes.
6:34
Speaker 2: Just one example, Richo tried to roll Bill Shorten and
6:38
Speaker 2: replace him with Albanezi just four months before the twenty
6:41
Speaker 2: sixteen federal election. I confronted Richo about this on live television,
6:47
Speaker 2: no less, just one week on the show, and here's
6:50
Speaker 2: what happened. Carara Milna writes that sitting down at Richo's
6:54
Speaker 2: local Harveside restaurant, Catalina. Richo opined that Bill has two
7:00
Speaker 2: newspolls left. When he falls shot he can resign for
7:04
Speaker 2: elbow or will blast him out with the message delivered, Richo,
7:09
Speaker 2: that encouraged me to order Andre and Maine and proceeded
7:13
Speaker 2: to tell me what a talent Scott Morrison was. I
7:15
Speaker 2: have to say, rich O, it does sound like you. You've
7:18
Speaker 2: taken me to Cadileena before. But on a serious note,
7:23
Speaker 2: Gray and Richard said, is this true? Did you threaten
7:28
Speaker 2: to roll Bill Shotton for Albo?
7:30
Speaker 5: That certainly doesn't sound like me. So I think, as
7:35
Speaker 5: I kept hearing in America once upon a time, I
7:38
Speaker 5: just don't recall that.
7:42
Speaker 2: So you're genuinely denying this because this is, you know,
7:46
Speaker 2: a story that would go down in the history books.
7:48
Speaker 2: Four months out from the election. Did you say that
7:50
Speaker 2: Bill Shotton had two news poles left?
7:52
Speaker 6: I don't recall.
7:56
Speaker 2: Did you did think that Albanize should replace Shorten?
8:00
Speaker 5: That's true, Yeah, that's true. I certainly had that view
8:04
Speaker 5: for quite a long time.
8:05
Speaker 2: And you may have made that threat to Cameron Milner,
8:08
Speaker 2: shot AND's chief of staff at Catalina.
8:10
Speaker 7: Well, it's possible.
8:11
Speaker 2: You remember the lunch you took him van much.
8:15
Speaker 5: No, I don't particularly remember the lunch. I've had so
8:17
Speaker 5: many at Catalina it's hard to remember them.
8:21
Speaker 2: So wander Richard turned up on the show week after
8:23
Speaker 2: week with interrogations like that. But he did, and he
8:27
Speaker 2: loved it. And Richo had rock solid labor values and
8:31
Speaker 2: this means that when alban Easy and pennywe got it wrong,
8:35
Speaker 2: as they often did, he called them out.
8:39
Speaker 5: I think Australia has dropped the ball on Israel in
8:43
Speaker 5: the Middle East and the Palestinian territories. I think we're
8:48
Speaker 5: handling it pretty poorly, and I think at some surge
8:52
Speaker 5: of the game we've just got to stand up and
8:55
Speaker 5: admit who our mates are, who've got to be looked after,
8:59
Speaker 5: and who were of people who would rather kill us
9:02
Speaker 5: than look after us.
9:03
Speaker 4: Well.
9:03
Speaker 5: I think she's doing a great job as Foreign Minister,
9:06
Speaker 5: with one exception. You can think that that's legitimate, which
9:11
Speaker 5: is the middle Age. But she hasn't been to lunch
9:12
Speaker 5: with you at Catalina's, Richo, No, she hasn't.
9:17
Speaker 2: And sometimes he'd even disclose when current cabinet ministers were
9:22
Speaker 2: fed up with the Albanezy government's decisions. Clearly, not all
9:27
Speaker 2: cabinet ministers are happy about that decision, now, that's for sure.
9:32
Speaker 2: Are you hearing that as well?
9:33
Speaker 5: Richo, Yes, I am so.
9:35
Speaker 2: You've spoken to cabinet ministers who are disappointed with this decision?
9:39
Speaker 2: I have, indeed, do you want to name names?
9:42
Speaker 5: No, I don't think that'd be exactly. Yeah, it wouldn't
9:46
Speaker 5: be good for my future.
9:47
Speaker 3: That alone.
9:48
Speaker 2: Theres and his political predictions were pretty much always right.
9:54
Speaker 2: Six months before the voice referendum, he said it wouldn't
9:58
Speaker 2: get up and wasn't need it. You're not going to
10:02
Speaker 2: support the Voice to Parliament? Why?
10:06
Speaker 5: Well, I can't see the need for it. I can't
10:09
Speaker 5: see what it will accomplish as far as I'm concerned,
10:13
Speaker 5: there's no need for anyone to have this so called
10:16
Speaker 5: voice to the Parliament where our voice is our vote.
10:21
Speaker 2: And when the polls were neck and neck before the
10:23
Speaker 2: last election, Richo often said that Albanezi would win in
10:27
Speaker 2: his own right and he'd govern with a majority, and
10:31
Speaker 2: Richard was also critical about Susan Lee when she became leader.
10:36
Speaker 5: If I can use a terrible swear word this whole
10:40
Speaker 5: let's swear.
10:41
Speaker 2: Live television, not actually swear on live television. It's time
10:45
Speaker 2: to beep us out.
10:46
Speaker 5: You can handle it. It's us up, that's the problem
10:49
Speaker 5: with it.
10:50
Speaker 2: I can handle that. That's all right.
10:52
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's as far as I'm going.
10:54
Speaker 6: But that's what it is.
10:55
Speaker 4: You know.
10:56
Speaker 5: They just turned things upside down.
10:58
Speaker 3: And it looks wrong, looks wrong. You're never going to
11:02
Speaker 3: fix it.
11:04
Speaker 5: Things are hard enough in politics if they look perfect.
11:08
Speaker 2: Rich I had a great sense of humor and many
11:11
Speaker 2: witty lines. When he wrote about the Barnaby Joyce scandal
11:14
Speaker 2: back in twenty eighteen, he said affairs are common in Canberra,
11:18
Speaker 2: where politicians and staff members spent so much time away
11:22
Speaker 2: from home. Whoever came up with the phrase absence makes
11:25
Speaker 2: the heart grow fonder was an idiot. In my experience,
11:29
Speaker 2: Absence makes the heart wonder. Richo was a labor man
11:35
Speaker 2: through and through, but he did vote for Dave Sharma
11:38
Speaker 2: and not the Teals at the twenty nineteen election. He
11:41
Speaker 2: had many friends from across the political aisle. Famous for
11:45
Speaker 2: his lunches. Over a few drinks, he'd tell juicy inside
11:49
Speaker 2: stories that you were sworn never to repeat. I remember
11:53
Speaker 2: hearing tales about Bob Hawks, womanizing, drinking and other shenanigans,
11:59
Speaker 2: including story about sneaking hawk out the back of a
12:02
Speaker 2: pub after he'd had a dalyance with a well known lady.
12:08
Speaker 2: But there are some stories that Richo never told. There
12:12
Speaker 2: are secrets he takes to his grave, the truth about
12:16
Speaker 2: the fire at offset Alpine in nineteen ninety three where
12:19
Speaker 2: the payout came in at over fifty million, and whether
12:24
Speaker 2: he knew anything about the death of Caroline Byrne, whose
12:28
Speaker 2: boyfriend god And would try to use Richo as part
12:32
Speaker 2: of his alibi. Now Australia will miss Richo, and of
12:36
Speaker 2: course viewers of this program in particular will miss him.
12:40
Speaker 2: Every Wednesday, even as his body was failing him, Richo
12:45
Speaker 2: turned up here week after week. He made the most
12:49
Speaker 2: of life, contributing to public debate and enjoying his lunches
12:54
Speaker 2: until the very end. And I'll come back to rich Owen,
13:01
Speaker 2: Ray Hadley's here a bit later, John Laws too. But
13:05
Speaker 2: let's return to the vile neo Nazi rally now to
13:08
Speaker 2: find out exactly what went wrong. I interviewed New South
13:12
Speaker 2: Wales Police Commissioner mal Lanyon at his office earlier today.
13:17
Speaker 2: Mal Lanion, thank you very much for your time today.
13:20
Speaker 3: It's a pleasure sharing.
13:22
Speaker 2: When did you first find out about the protest and
13:24
Speaker 2: what was your reaction to it.
13:26
Speaker 1: It was one of surprise I found out on Saturday morning,
13:29
Speaker 1: after the protest had taken place, when.
13:31
Speaker 3: I was briefed. It was not something that i'd personally
13:34
Speaker 3: been briefed on.
13:35
Speaker 2: Did you find out through the police chain because there
13:39
Speaker 2: were officers there, or did you find out from the
13:41
Speaker 2: New South Wales government?
13:43
Speaker 1: I found out from the New South Wales government.
13:46
Speaker 2: That's a problem, isn't it?
13:47
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
13:47
Speaker 1: And I think I've been fairly open on the fact
13:49
Speaker 1: that that sort of communication issue, that sort of process
13:53
Speaker 1: needs to be changed, and I've taken steps ready.
13:55
Speaker 3: To rectify that.
13:55
Speaker 2: All right, why was this protest allowed to go ahead?
14:00
Speaker 1: So the process in terms of a protest is that
14:04
Speaker 1: an organize a lodgeist what's called a Form one, which
14:06
Speaker 1: is a notice of an intention to conduct a public assembly.
14:09
Speaker 1: On that form one, they outlined the reasons what it
14:12
Speaker 1: is they're actually protesting against, where it is, how many
14:15
Speaker 1: people are going to be present. That goes to a
14:18
Speaker 1: police area command. They then consider that against the legislation.
14:22
Speaker 1: So looking at what's in the form one, consider it
14:24
Speaker 1: against the legislation and also look at what's known of
14:27
Speaker 1: the group that have actually nominated. Based on that one,
14:30
Speaker 1: there it was felt that there wasn't grounds to oppose it.
14:33
Speaker 2: Had you personally known about the protest, would you have
14:36
Speaker 2: allowed it to go ahead?
14:37
Speaker 1: Well, it's not fair for me to second guess the
14:39
Speaker 1: decision of the commander at the time, and to be honest,
14:42
Speaker 1: based on the information that was in the Form one,
14:44
Speaker 1: based on our legislation and what the previous interactions we've
14:47
Speaker 1: had with the group, the decision was not inappropriate.
14:50
Speaker 2: What I've said, very decision wasn't inappropriate. You think the
14:53
Speaker 2: protest should have gone ahead based.
14:55
Speaker 1: On the legislation, I don't believe we had grounds to
14:57
Speaker 1: oppose it. What I've subsequently asked is our legal officer
15:01
Speaker 1: to provide me advice on the prospect of success of
15:05
Speaker 1: opposing it.
15:05
Speaker 3: Should there be another application in the Form.
15:08
Speaker 2: One protest, didn't it specifically say that the protest was
15:11
Speaker 2: designed to oppose Jewish groups, Jewish lobby groups. It said
15:15
Speaker 2: it was designed to protest Jewish lobby groups, but also
15:19
Speaker 2: the current hate speech legislation. There's been such widespread outrage,
15:24
Speaker 2: including from the Premier and the Police Minister, saying this
15:27
Speaker 2: protest shouldn't have happened, And you're saying if you knew
15:30
Speaker 2: about it, it still would have gone ahead.
15:32
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is that we have to operate within
15:34
Speaker 1: the legislation that exists at the moment.
15:36
Speaker 3: There has to be a balancing up.
15:38
Speaker 1: The Summary Offenses Act which we operate under, balances the
15:42
Speaker 1: rights to protest and free speech against the rights of
15:45
Speaker 1: public safety and disruption, and that's what we have to
15:48
Speaker 1: weigh up.
15:49
Speaker 2: So you've said so far that the form Form one
15:54
Speaker 2: went to the local area command and that's where the
15:56
Speaker 2: issue arose, that it didn't escalate and make its way
15:59
Speaker 2: to you. But I understand it did also go to
16:01
Speaker 2: the police legal unit. Shouldn't it have been escalated from
16:05
Speaker 2: the legal unit to you?
16:06
Speaker 1: So I'm advised that the police legal unit were asked
16:09
Speaker 1: to consider the flag that was going to do with a
16:11
Speaker 1: banner that was going to be raised that actual protest.
16:15
Speaker 1: They determined that there was not a criminal offense by
16:18
Speaker 1: the wording that was in that banner. Absolutely, there are
16:20
Speaker 1: plenty of opportunities where I could have been personally informed
16:23
Speaker 1: of this. As I said, I've taken steps to rectify
16:25
Speaker 1: that so it doesn't happen again, so it was.
16:28
Speaker 2: The local area command. The legal unit also knew about it.
16:31
Speaker 2: And then I understand that the Sydney Morning Herald contacted
16:35
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Police media unit on Friday and
16:38
Speaker 2: also raised the issue that the Neo Nazis were planning
16:42
Speaker 2: something at Parliament House. Are you aware of that?
16:45
Speaker 3: I'm not aware of that contact.
16:47
Speaker 2: So this was a third avenue of contact. The Sydney
16:49
Speaker 2: Morning Herald on the Friday before the protest took place
16:53
Speaker 2: contacted the media unit.
16:55
Speaker 1: I'm being as frank as I can. I was not
16:56
Speaker 1: personally informed that that protest was occurring.
17:00
Speaker 2: Concerned though that this is three avenues that were not
17:03
Speaker 2: escalated to you, surely that indicates a systemic issue in
17:07
Speaker 2: the police force.
17:08
Speaker 1: I've made it clear it was a process issue and
17:10
Speaker 1: I've asked that that process be remedied. That's underway at
17:13
Speaker 1: the moment, okay.
17:16
Speaker 2: So Premier Chris Mins only found out about this after
17:20
Speaker 2: the Herald contacted him on Saturday morning after a media query,
17:25
Speaker 2: and then his government contacted the police force. That's how
17:28
Speaker 2: you found out about it, That's correct.
17:30
Speaker 1: So because I wasn't unaware of it, I had not
17:33
Speaker 1: contacted the Minister to inform her and had not contacted government.
17:38
Speaker 2: So you had police in attendance at a nineteen thirty
17:41
Speaker 2: style neo Nazi rally, and none of the police thought
17:45
Speaker 2: to inform the executive.
17:47
Speaker 1: Well, it was certainly known within the organization that protest
17:51
Speaker 1: comes up potentially on a spreadsheet. We have numerous protests
17:54
Speaker 1: this year. We've already had over a thousand protests. Not
17:57
Speaker 1: all of those reached the executive make it briefed on
18:00
Speaker 1: all of them. What I'm disappointed about is one that
18:03
Speaker 1: was going to have so much obvious attention, is one
18:06
Speaker 1: that I would have.
18:06
Speaker 3: Expected to know about.
18:08
Speaker 2: But I'm not even talking about beforehand. I'm talking about
18:10
Speaker 2: after the fact, when you had police officers watching nineteen
18:14
Speaker 2: thirty style or neo Nazi display outside Parliament House, and
18:18
Speaker 2: even then you weren't told about it.
18:21
Speaker 3: I think, to.
18:21
Speaker 1: Be honest, the actions that took place out I understand
18:25
Speaker 1: the fear and intimidation they have caused parts of the community.
18:28
Speaker 1: From a policing perspective management of that protest, there were
18:33
Speaker 1: no open offenses, there were no violence that took place.
18:36
Speaker 1: We're now investigating the circumstances, both by reviewing audio and
18:40
Speaker 1: video of that protest. If there are offenses that are disclosed,
18:44
Speaker 1: we'll certainly take action. We've been very swift and decisive previously,
18:48
Speaker 1: and we'll continue to take appropriate action if people offend
18:50
Speaker 1: against the law.
18:51
Speaker 2: So you're saying there's no offenses, but section ninety three
18:54
Speaker 2: Z double A of the Crimes Act, and this is
18:57
Speaker 2: the new version that was passed in August, it states
19:00
Speaker 2: that a person commits an offense if the person, by
19:04
Speaker 2: a public act, intentionally incites hatred towards another group, and
19:12
Speaker 2: the public act would cause a reasonable person who's a
19:15
Speaker 2: member of that group fear harassment, intimidation, or violence, or
19:21
Speaker 2: fear for the reasonable person's safety. So clearly it does
19:25
Speaker 2: seem to be in breach of that section of the
19:28
Speaker 2: Crimes Act, doesn't it.
19:29
Speaker 1: So that's the reason we are investigating, and we'll have
19:32
Speaker 1: that legally examined. Intentionally incites hatred is one test that
19:36
Speaker 1: we need to prove.
19:37
Speaker 3: That's the one we work through at the moment.
19:39
Speaker 1: These types of groups intentionally scape through the gray area.
19:44
Speaker 3: They often say.
19:44
Speaker 1: And do things that are right on the borderline of legality,
19:47
Speaker 1: and that's the reason why we need to investigate these
19:49
Speaker 1: things thoroughly.
19:50
Speaker 2: But even Section ninety three ZAAB if the public act,
19:54
Speaker 2: so that's the Neo Nazi rally outside Parliament House would
19:57
Speaker 2: cause a reasonable person who is a member of that groups,
20:00
Speaker 2: an ordinary member of the Jewish community, fear, harassment or intimidation.
20:06
Speaker 1: I've not said that there are no offenses. I've said
20:08
Speaker 1: very clearly that we are investigating this matter thoroughly, we
20:11
Speaker 1: will take appropriate action.
20:13
Speaker 2: But on that basis, couldn't police have made arrests on
20:16
Speaker 2: the spot? Clearly Neo Nazis would cause the Jewish community
20:20
Speaker 2: fear and intimidation.
20:22
Speaker 3: That's obviously a question that we need to consider.
20:24
Speaker 1: Legally, police need to make decision on the ground at
20:27
Speaker 1: the time. Often some of that legislation and some of
20:30
Speaker 1: those actions are challenging.
20:31
Speaker 2: But how is there legal uncertainty about that Neo Nazis
20:34
Speaker 2: do cause fear and intimidation to the Jewish community. Shouldn't
20:38
Speaker 2: there have been instantaneous arrests?
20:41
Speaker 1: I think we need to consider. Obviously, it was part
20:43
Speaker 1: of a form one process. These people lodged a Form
20:45
Speaker 1: one under the Act. Once you lodge a form one,
20:49
Speaker 1: unless the police oppose it, it is taken to be authorized.
20:52
Speaker 1: That being the case, there them being present in a
20:55
Speaker 1: public place has been considered as part of the legislation
20:59
Speaker 1: applicableunder the Summary Offenses Act.
21:01
Speaker 3: What I want to do is make sure that.
21:03
Speaker 1: From this way forward, the investigation identifies is there's offenses,
21:07
Speaker 1: and it will certainly inform our actions going forward.
21:11
Speaker 2: I mean to an ordinary person watching this, it would
21:14
Speaker 2: just sound like excuses because the law is that it
21:17
Speaker 2: says it is an offense if a public act, a
21:20
Speaker 2: rally outside Parliament House would cause a group fear or harassment.
21:26
Speaker 1: That's exactly why we're working through this process. As I said,
21:29
Speaker 1: these people gather, they use the process under the Summary
21:32
Speaker 1: Offenses Act. It's important now that legally we identify if
21:37
Speaker 1: they have committed offenses. Some of that legislation as you
21:40
Speaker 1: were going through there, does require a balance from a
21:43
Speaker 1: legal perspective.
21:45
Speaker 2: Their faces were not covered. Do you know the identities
21:48
Speaker 2: of most of the sixty seven men who were there?
21:51
Speaker 3: I do believe so.
21:55
Speaker 2: Do you expect there will be arrests or criminal penalties?
22:00
Speaker 1: Certainly if we identify that there have been criminal offenses committed.
22:04
Speaker 1: That's why I've committed to a thorough investigation. I want
22:07
Speaker 1: to examine all of the actions we have video and
22:09
Speaker 1: audio that we're currently reviewing. If we identify offenses, we
22:13
Speaker 1: will identify and take action.
22:15
Speaker 2: You know who they are, We.
22:16
Speaker 1: Will be able to identify those people.
22:19
Speaker 2: You will be able to or you do already know
22:21
Speaker 2: their identities.
22:22
Speaker 1: We certainly, as a result of interacting with that group before,
22:25
Speaker 1: know a number.
22:26
Speaker 3: Of the people at are present.
22:27
Speaker 1: Our role as police is if someone has committed offense
22:31
Speaker 1: and we don't know who they are, will identify them.
22:33
Speaker 1: But we have previously interacted with the group.
22:35
Speaker 2: Is it correct that one of them is a member
22:37
Speaker 2: of a political party.
22:39
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that, but I can
22:41
Speaker 1: say that the group themselves have indicated that they intend
22:45
Speaker 1: to become a political party.
22:47
Speaker 2: Is there anything you can do? Is it in your
22:49
Speaker 2: power to prevent that from happening?
22:51
Speaker 3: Certainly not for the police.
22:53
Speaker 1: That's a matter that they would have to follow the
22:55
Speaker 1: normal process if they wanted to become a political party.
22:58
Speaker 2: I've spoken to lawyers this morning who are dealing with
23:02
Speaker 2: the law, and despite the recent changes to ninety three ZUBA,
23:06
Speaker 2: they say it's not fit for purpose because of that
23:09
Speaker 2: term inciting violence. They say that threshold legally is still
23:14
Speaker 2: too high and that it should be altered to the
23:17
Speaker 2: promotion of hatred. Would the promotion of hatred? Would that
23:20
Speaker 2: make it easier for police to do their job and
23:23
Speaker 2: make those arrests.
23:25
Speaker 1: So obviously legislation is a matter for government police enforced legislation.
23:29
Speaker 1: I've certainly indicated to you in terms of that specific indictment,
23:34
Speaker 1: that is one of the things we need to prove.
23:36
Speaker 1: That's why at the moment we're reviewing the evidence and
23:39
Speaker 1: considering it against legal It.
23:41
Speaker 2: Just seems like there's this pattern, whether it's the neo
23:45
Speaker 2: Nazis or very aggressive pro Palestinian protests, where police feel
23:50
Speaker 2: powerless to take action at the time on the spot,
23:54
Speaker 2: and it needs to go to a legal unit and
23:57
Speaker 2: have months of examination to see if a law was
24:00
Speaker 2: broken and then try and track down the individuals, and
24:03
Speaker 2: sometimes it's not possible to do that.
24:05
Speaker 1: I think, as you said, the legislation itself has a
24:08
Speaker 1: high legal test, and that's for obvious reasons.
24:11
Speaker 3: The right the free speech exists.
24:13
Speaker 1: We will investigate, we will get legal.
24:16
Speaker 3: Advice if required, and we will take action. What we
24:19
Speaker 3: do in.
24:19
Speaker 1: Terms of protests is we actually have legal advisors available
24:22
Speaker 1: to provide advice to police. So if they believe that
24:25
Speaker 1: there's an offense being committed, they can speak to one
24:27
Speaker 1: of our legal advisors and get advice. That's not always
24:30
Speaker 1: the case at a protest. It's not always easy to
24:33
Speaker 1: do that. That's why we do a great deal of
24:35
Speaker 1: work to actually review evidence after it and take appropriate
24:38
Speaker 1: action with our legal.
24:39
Speaker 2: Advice is present on Saturday morning at this Neo Nazi rally,
24:42
Speaker 2: there were.
24:43
Speaker 3: Legal advisors available if required.
24:45
Speaker 2: Were they there on the spot?
24:46
Speaker 3: I don't believe so.
24:48
Speaker 2: I mean, do you admit that when you have Neo
24:50
Speaker 2: Nazis protesting outside Parliament House nineteen thirties Germany style, the
24:56
Speaker 2: laws are not fit for purpose if this is just
25:00
Speaker 2: allowed to go ahead.
25:01
Speaker 1: I find their actions and their ideology abhorrent. As a
25:05
Speaker 1: police officer, the type of divisiveness that they are driving
25:08
Speaker 1: in community social cohesion is one of the biggest challenges
25:11
Speaker 1: we've got at the moment, and I think the Director
25:13
Speaker 1: of ASIO spoke about that the other night. This is
25:16
Speaker 1: not what we want to see on the streets of
25:17
Speaker 1: New South Wales, but as police we need to work
25:20
Speaker 1: within the legislation that actually exists.
25:22
Speaker 2: Do you think there's an argument that this group should
25:24
Speaker 2: be considered under the terrorism Act for listing.
25:28
Speaker 1: I think they certainly haven't been declared at the moment.
25:31
Speaker 1: We would need to look at the motives and whether
25:32
Speaker 1: they actually fit within that. It's probably one that we
25:36
Speaker 1: would look at more broadly.
25:38
Speaker 2: Is that something you'd like to see considered.
25:40
Speaker 1: I think it needs to be looked at as a whole.
25:42
Speaker 1: But I think their actions as they are at the
25:44
Speaker 1: moment may not meet the definition.
25:47
Speaker 2: I mean, just finally, this would be very frustrating for
25:50
Speaker 2: people watching this interview to hear you say that police
25:54
Speaker 2: are powerless to take action when you have such a
25:56
Speaker 2: grotesque display of hatred outside the of our democracy. What's
26:01
Speaker 2: your response to this.
26:02
Speaker 1: No, I disagree that we can't take action, and I
26:04
Speaker 1: think that's the most appropriate thing if we set aside
26:08
Speaker 1: the actual summary offenses Act as to whether a protest
26:11
Speaker 1: can occur, what we are very cognizant of the fact
26:14
Speaker 1: is the actions of those participants when they're at the protest.
26:17
Speaker 1: We have previously taken swift and decisive action. We will
26:21
Speaker 1: support the community. We are there for community safety. I'm
26:25
Speaker 1: incredibly proud of our police officers. They do a wonderful job.
26:29
Speaker 1: They've policed over a thousand protests this year, and I
26:31
Speaker 1: think the fact that in general they have been peaceful
26:35
Speaker 1: is a testament to the skill of the New South
26:36
Speaker 1: Wales Police Force. But I want to reassure the community
26:39
Speaker 1: that we are therefore their safety and that is what
26:42
Speaker 1: we will focus on.
26:44
Speaker 2: It's not just physical safety though this group. There's a
26:47
Speaker 2: risk that they radicalise other young people and all the
26:52
Speaker 2: publicity has in fact worked as a recruitment effort to them.
26:56
Speaker 2: Is that a concern, absolutely?
26:58
Speaker 3: It is.
26:58
Speaker 1: I think giving a group like this ox is concerning
27:01
Speaker 1: to me. We don't want people to attach to a
27:04
Speaker 1: group with this type of ideology. Being completely discriminating against
27:08
Speaker 1: other races, other cultures is not something that we want
27:12
Speaker 1: in society and it's not the New South Wales that
27:15
Speaker 1: I know well certainly that the New South Wales please
27:17
Speaker 1: stand for.
27:18
Speaker 2: What's your message to the members of that group who
27:20
Speaker 2: are standing outside of Parliament House on Saturday.
27:23
Speaker 1: I think empathy, respect and understanding is what we're looking
27:27
Speaker 1: for in society at the moment. I think it's what
27:28
Speaker 1: we're lacking, and to be honest, I think it's one
27:31
Speaker 1: of the key things that we need to focus on
27:32
Speaker 1: about social cohesion. We need people to be able to
27:35
Speaker 1: live together in harmony and peacefully.
27:39
Speaker 2: Commissioner, thank you so much for your time, really appreciate it.
27:41
Speaker 3: Thank you, Sherry.
27:43
Speaker 2: All right, let me know what you think about his responses.
27:47
Speaker 2: The factors, the neon Nazis were there, police watched one.
27:50
Speaker 2: Nothing has happened, all right, still to come. Heads have
27:53
Speaker 2: rolled at the BBC after it doctored Donald Trump's speech. Well,
27:57
Speaker 2: the journalist who exposed all of this is going to
28:00
Speaker 2: be on the show shortly. Plus, Ray Hadley and John
28:03
Speaker 2: Laws had a radio rivalry for the ages, and Hadley
28:06
Speaker 2: will be here to share his memories of the Golden
28:09
Speaker 2: Tunsils next. As you know, John Laws, one of Australia's
28:17
Speaker 2: most powerful and influential radio presenters, died last night, aged ninety.
28:23
Speaker 2: It was exactly one year and one day after he
28:25
Speaker 2: retired from the microphone, having spent seventy one dominating the airways.
28:31
Speaker 2: And who ever could forget this, I'll tell you what
28:35
Speaker 2: to do.
28:36
Speaker 7: Ring Pikes nurseries what nursy Pikes Pike?
28:40
Speaker 6: Yes, p y k e.
28:44
Speaker 2: S I oh what am I known.
28:47
Speaker 3: To deserve this? Would you spell that again for me?
28:52
Speaker 5: Hey?
28:53
Speaker 7: Y ay him?
28:56
Speaker 3: Did you okay?
28:57
Speaker 7: No, ma'am, No, I said, why why sp Why is
29:03
Speaker 7: in Yankee?
29:04
Speaker 6: K is in Kilo? He is in echo?
29:09
Speaker 8: S is in stupid Pikes, p y k e s
29:13
Speaker 8: Pike's nurseries?
29:18
Speaker 2: S Would you spell that to me?
29:23
Speaker 3: Would you spell to me what you've got written down?
29:28
Speaker 2: Why? I?
29:32
Speaker 6: But will we try it again, ma'am, I'm glad.
29:36
Speaker 2: We don't have to listen to him try it again.
29:37
Speaker 2: He was blunt and combative. If his guests didn't know
29:40
Speaker 2: what they were talking about, laws, let them have it.
29:43
Speaker 2: He was revered and feared by politicians, and for good reason,
29:48
Speaker 2: but he held a deep respect and compassion for the
29:50
Speaker 2: everyday working man. He loved our country and true blue Aussies.
29:55
Speaker 2: And while radio was his life, music was his passion,
29:58
Speaker 2: and he was one of the first to really intertwine
30:01
Speaker 2: talk back and music on air. Of course, it would
30:04
Speaker 2: be a miss not to mention his true love, his princess,
30:08
Speaker 2: who he's now been reunited with. His death marks the
30:12
Speaker 2: end of an era. His iconic voice shaped the nation
30:15
Speaker 2: and there won't be another like it. Well for more
30:18
Speaker 2: on this joining me here is radio legend Ray Hardley. Ray,
30:22
Speaker 2: Good to see you.
30:24
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a sad time.
30:25
Speaker 7: For obviously those affiliated with John, his family, his children,
30:29
Speaker 7: his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and for those like me who
30:32
Speaker 7: knew him, the end of an era and that call
30:35
Speaker 7: that you played then was typical Lawsy. He used to
30:40
Speaker 7: have in the studio a button where he could talk
30:44
Speaker 7: and the listener wouldn't hear what he was saying, and
30:46
Speaker 7: when he was saying, what have I done to deserve this?
30:48
Speaker 7: And that lady would not have known he was saying
30:50
Speaker 7: that he was a master. He used to, of course
30:54
Speaker 7: panel for himself, which radio presenters don't do anymore. I
30:57
Speaker 7: did because his understudy ten years, and I taught myself
31:01
Speaker 7: to panels that you're in complete control of what's happening.
31:04
Speaker 7: You're taking the calls, you're playing the music. I had
31:07
Speaker 7: a shared love of country music, so when I started
31:10
Speaker 7: doing my own program, I of course concentrated on country
31:12
Speaker 7: music as he did. But he invented talkback radio in
31:16
Speaker 7: the form that he did it. It was first in
31:19
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty that the bloke called ormsby Wilkins did talk
31:21
Speaker 7: back on two Yui. But Laws he took it to
31:24
Speaker 7: a fine art and he'd milk the callers as best
31:28
Speaker 7: he could. Our mentor John Brennan, who actually was responsible
31:32
Speaker 7: for him coming to Sydney and also to Orange, had
31:34
Speaker 7: a saying about open line callers, which aren't that prevalent
31:38
Speaker 7: these days because there's so many other ways to contact
31:40
Speaker 7: radio broadcasters, text messages, social media.
31:44
Speaker 6: Brene used to say.
31:45
Speaker 7: Lawsy boy, greet them, gut them and goodbye them, and
31:50
Speaker 7: that was the nature of the program, milk them for
31:52
Speaker 7: all their worth. But then he always was an entertainer.
31:57
Speaker 6: He never ever said he was a journalist entertainer.
32:01
Speaker 7: But he was the first broadcaster to put the acid
32:04
Speaker 7: on politicians, to question them vigorously, and if he didn't
32:09
Speaker 7: like the answers, he'd go after them, both state and federal.
32:12
Speaker 7: I've been quoted today and I said this well before
32:15
Speaker 7: he passed. He's the greatest radio broadcast of this country
32:17
Speaker 7: has produced. I had the pleasure of working with him,
32:21
Speaker 7: Bob Rogers and gari O Callahan, three of the greats.
32:24
Speaker 6: The legends.
32:25
Speaker 7: It was a blake called Jack Davy before my time
32:27
Speaker 7: in the forties and fifties, so apparently was sensational and
32:30
Speaker 7: I've heard him from time to time on replay.
32:33
Speaker 6: But laws he made radio own.
32:36
Speaker 7: He's owned a may and as he's under study from
32:38
Speaker 7: ninety two to two.
32:39
Speaker 2: Thousand, so you would have learned a lot from him
32:41
Speaker 2: in that period everything I mean.
32:43
Speaker 7: Look, he used to take potshots at me when he
32:45
Speaker 7: went to two SM I beat him in the ratings
32:48
Speaker 7: in two thousand and four. He never won another survey
32:50
Speaker 7: and he wasn't happy about tell you too well. He
32:53
Speaker 7: wasn't happy about the young Blake taking the mantle off him,
32:55
Speaker 7: which is understandable as age I am now, I'm not
32:59
Speaker 7: too happy about other will take it a mantle eye
33:01
Speaker 7: one cell, but doesn't matter. But he'd say to me,
33:04
Speaker 7: quite seriously, you copy everything I do.
33:06
Speaker 6: You copy?
33:06
Speaker 7: I said, well, John, when I'm in the presence of
33:09
Speaker 7: someone who has perfected their craft like you have, I'd
33:12
Speaker 7: be a dope if I didn't steal some of the
33:14
Speaker 7: stuff that I watched you do, including paneling, including an outro,
33:18
Speaker 7: including stings, including music beds, you know, including the famous
33:23
Speaker 7: button where you could override a caller and talk they
33:26
Speaker 7: couldn't hear you. And he was just phenomenal. Brenege To
33:32
Speaker 7: always say that he had a voice that would curl
33:34
Speaker 7: a friend of penny, whatever that means. But he had
33:37
Speaker 7: a magnificent voice, and all in all, I'd say that
33:41
Speaker 7: when we met socially, he was always pleasant, always kind
33:44
Speaker 7: and generous to me. Not so in the battles that
33:46
Speaker 7: we fought in newspapers and things like that, where it
33:49
Speaker 7: wasn't as complimentary, but it was part of the game.
33:52
Speaker 7: I mean, he toughened me up. He toughened me up
33:55
Speaker 7: so that I became impervious to that sort of criticism
33:58
Speaker 7: from him and others. Well, yeah, but it's a tough school,
34:01
Speaker 7: it is. You know, it's not a school for the
34:03
Speaker 7: faint hearted talkback radio or talk radios.
34:05
Speaker 6: It's now known.
34:06
Speaker 7: It's a place where you've got to be fiercely competitive,
34:09
Speaker 7: as he was, as I was, And it's a sad
34:12
Speaker 7: time for all of us who were with him during
34:14
Speaker 7: that period of success that he had over seven decades.
34:17
Speaker 2: Richer of course, I have passed away. In the Weekend
34:19
Speaker 2: spoke about him a bit earlier.
34:21
Speaker 6: I saw the tribute to look, most.
34:23
Speaker 2: Of the tributes have been glowing. The finn Reviews editorial
34:26
Speaker 2: was pretty brutal. You know, he looked great. He'll be
34:32
Speaker 2: remembered for his labor history, but also he became in
34:37
Speaker 2: more recent is a really great political analyst and commentator.
34:40
Speaker 7: Well look politically where Poles apart Graham and I. But
34:46
Speaker 7: I always found him fantastic company. I wasn't in the
34:48
Speaker 7: group that went to lunch with him because I don't
34:50
Speaker 7: do lunches really, but he's a really good blake, you know.
34:54
Speaker 7: And when I encountered him, he was a listener to
34:57
Speaker 7: me sometimes. And I think he vehemently disagreed with some
34:59
Speaker 7: of the thing things I said, particularly about his beloved
35:01
Speaker 7: Labor Party. But he was, for all intents and purposes,
35:05
Speaker 7: a good man. And when you weigh up what someone
35:08
Speaker 7: achieved with their life his life, how much good, how
35:12
Speaker 7: much not so good? And I think in his case
35:15
Speaker 7: the good always outweighed the.
35:17
Speaker 6: Not so good.
35:17
Speaker 2: Good nice thing to say, I think, as all of
35:19
Speaker 2: the viewers of this show would know, he was quite
35:21
Speaker 2: a centrist labor politician, so he wasn't of the radical left.
35:26
Speaker 2: In fact, he hated the left of the Labor Party.
35:29
Speaker 2: He was very, very centrist, quite sensible on a lot
35:32
Speaker 2: of issues. Despite him constantly telling us what a good
35:35
Speaker 2: bloke Albow was and how everyone on the street loves Albo,
35:38
Speaker 2: I never believed him. That's another reaction I get.
35:41
Speaker 7: I think he also detested the left from the Liberal
35:43
Speaker 7: Party just as much. And there are growing concern the
35:47
Speaker 7: labor the liberal labor lights in the Liberal Party, and
35:50
Speaker 7: I think that he wanted a competition, He wanted a
35:56
Speaker 7: balance of views. And in his own Labor Party there
35:59
Speaker 7: was from the left day, from the right days in
36:01
Speaker 7: the middle of those that were stark, raving mad. And
36:04
Speaker 7: he liked to think the opposing Liberals Nationals would offer.
36:07
Speaker 6: Some sort of opposition.
36:08
Speaker 7: But when they all meld together, the electorate becomes confused,
36:13
Speaker 7: very confused.
36:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Now, just tonight before we went on air,
36:18
Speaker 2: Albaniz he's given a speech where he's launched an extraordinary
36:22
Speaker 2: spray about Whitlam's dismissal. Of course, the anniversary of that
36:26
Speaker 2: fifty years is tomorrow. Have a look at what Albow
36:28
Speaker 2: had to say.
36:30
Speaker 3: Make no mistake.
36:32
Speaker 9: November the eleventh, nineteen seventy five was not a constitutional crisis.
36:38
Speaker 9: It was a partisan political ambush. There was no real
36:43
Speaker 9: precedent and no legitimate pretext. The dismissal was a calculated
36:48
Speaker 9: plot hatched by conservative forces which sacrificed conventions and institutions
36:54
Speaker 9: in the pursuit of power. And the result of the
36:58
Speaker 9: election that followed does not wash all any of that.
37:02
Speaker 2: So ray Albanez is saying the dismissal wasn't justified, just
37:06
Speaker 2: a conservative plight. Never mind the landslide fifty five seat
37:09
Speaker 2: win a month later by Grazer.
37:10
Speaker 7: I wonder how he dismisses Look, I wouldn't expect anything
37:13
Speaker 7: else from him, you know, like he loves Gough.
37:17
Speaker 6: He was twelve at the time.
37:18
Speaker 7: I don't know what sort of understanding he had in
37:19
Speaker 7: year six or seven of what was going on, but
37:21
Speaker 7: obviously he was a political student way back then, angling
37:24
Speaker 7: for a position in the Labor Party, and he eventually
37:27
Speaker 7: got the highest position as Prime Minister. But that election,
37:31
Speaker 7: that election, and look, GoF Whitlam did some good things,
37:35
Speaker 7: he did some absolutely incredibly bad things. But that election
37:39
Speaker 7: the coalition emerged with ninety one seats to thirty six.
37:44
Speaker 6: I think Labor now the electorate at the time.
37:48
Speaker 7: I don't know whether Albo thinks they were stupid, dumb
37:51
Speaker 7: or ill informed, but they certainly took heed of what
37:55
Speaker 7: the government was doing and they sent them packing. And
37:58
Speaker 7: while he can dismiss the victory by Fraser, who I
38:02
Speaker 7: don't think was much of a prime minister myself, and
38:03
Speaker 7: he became even worse in retirement. But he can't dismiss
38:07
Speaker 7: what the electorate did. They sent them packing, the Nationals
38:10
Speaker 7: and the Liberals or the country. Chastis one month later, Yeah,
38:14
Speaker 7: ninety one to thirty six, and that must hurt. It
38:18
Speaker 7: really must hurt, because I think it was the second
38:20
Speaker 7: biggest margin ever in a federal election.
38:23
Speaker 2: And I have strong views on this. I mean, fifty
38:25
Speaker 2: years on, you still have people very angry like Albert
38:29
Speaker 2: easy labor government.
38:30
Speaker 7: I've got a mate I call the world richest communist
38:33
Speaker 7: and he'd be watching us right now and I'll be
38:35
Speaker 7: getting the rounded up by him sometime, a marri who
38:38
Speaker 7: is Look, I can't mention his name, Kevin Caylor, but
38:43
Speaker 7: he's a really good black and he loved golf and
38:46
Speaker 7: actually we had a game of golf the day and
38:48
Speaker 7: I didn't dare mention the dismissal a liquals that would
38:51
Speaker 7: send him into a tailspin as it's doing right now.
38:53
Speaker 6: Kerbe, I love you, but you're wrong, all right.
38:56
Speaker 2: And of course that goes on here on skytchmorrow night
38:58
Speaker 2: ray so good to see yourself always, Thank you so much,
39:01
Speaker 2: sad We had to talk about people passing away tonight,
39:03
Speaker 2: next week will be better.
39:04
Speaker 7: Yeah, I guess living and dying is all part of
39:07
Speaker 7: the deal.
39:08
Speaker 6: It's just part of life. It's most unfortunate.
39:10
Speaker 7: But the condolences to John's family and to Riche's family
39:13
Speaker 7: as well.
39:14
Speaker 6: And all I love to you.
39:15
Speaker 2: Thanks ray thank you. Right still to come, the United
39:18
Speaker 2: Nations ways into the debate over whether biological men transgender
39:23
Speaker 2: women can breastfeet. I'll tell you what the UN has
39:26
Speaker 2: to say about this. And the journalist to expose the
39:29
Speaker 2: BBC scandal joins us after the resignation of the top
39:32
Speaker 2: two executives that's after the break welcome back. Director General
39:40
Speaker 2: Tim Davey and BBC News Chief Executive Deborah Tourness have
39:44
Speaker 2: both resigned after a leaked dossier. Associate editor for the
39:48
Speaker 2: UK Telegraph god and Rayner broke that explosive story and
39:53
Speaker 2: I spoke with him earlier. Godd and thank you so
39:56
Speaker 2: much for your time. Once again, can you tell us
39:59
Speaker 2: how these resignations came about. This is big news.
40:04
Speaker 8: It's very big news. Tim Davey, as you'll know, is
40:07
Speaker 8: the director General of the BBC. He's effectively the chief
40:10
Speaker 8: executive of the BBC. He's the guy in charge Debraternus,
40:15
Speaker 8: who's also quit. She was head of BBC News. So
40:18
Speaker 8: these are two of the absolute top people at the BBC.
40:22
Speaker 8: And it's come after a whole week of reporting by
40:26
Speaker 8: us at the Telegraph of BBC bias stories about as
40:31
Speaker 8: you will remember Donald Trump, the speech that he made
40:35
Speaker 8: on the day of the Capitol Riots. That speech was
40:39
Speaker 8: doctored by a Panorama documentary. We had stories about BBC
40:43
Speaker 8: Arabic making everything, framing everything in a very sort of
40:48
Speaker 8: amass led way, and we had some stories about how
40:52
Speaker 8: the BBC's LGBT desk was effectively censoring stories about the
40:58
Speaker 8: transgender debate. It fell as though, certainly Tim Davies's position
41:03
Speaker 8: was pretty much untenable from a very early stage, because
41:08
Speaker 8: not only had he been told about that Panorama documentary
41:10
Speaker 8: months ago and did nothing, it was also the culture
41:14
Speaker 8: that he's allowed to exist at the BBC during his
41:17
Speaker 8: five years at the top, that many people were getting
41:19
Speaker 8: away with this stuff. They were doing it because they
41:21
Speaker 8: didn't think the management would care. And that's a problem
41:25
Speaker 8: that's very much of his creation.
41:28
Speaker 2: God. And when we spoke last time, the BBC was
41:30
Speaker 2: digging its heels in. So what has happened to shift
41:33
Speaker 2: the momentum on this and to actually force these major resignations.
41:39
Speaker 8: So I think that there was quite a sort of
41:41
Speaker 8: cynical response by the people at the top of the
41:43
Speaker 8: BBC to our reporting. I think they had very much
41:47
Speaker 8: hoped that it would just go away if they ignored it.
41:51
Speaker 8: They spent a whole week saying absolutely nothing at all.
41:54
Speaker 8: It wasn't really reported by the BBC. But I think
41:58
Speaker 8: what happened was that the story didn't go with We
42:00
Speaker 8: kept bugging away at it. Other news outlets picked up
42:04
Speaker 8: the story. It was on the front pages of several
42:06
Speaker 8: newspapers over the weekend. You had Donald Trump weighing in
42:10
Speaker 8: and accusing the BBC of purposefully effectively faking that Panorama documentary.
42:17
Speaker 8: And I think that it became obvious to Tim Davey
42:20
Speaker 8: that this wasn't going to go away. He was facing
42:22
Speaker 8: a probable appearance before a Parliamentary committee, which would have
42:27
Speaker 8: been very difficult. I think it could have got very messy.
42:30
Speaker 8: He wouldn't have been able to give any good answers
42:32
Speaker 8: for why all of these things happened under his watch.
42:35
Speaker 8: And I think that there may well have been conversations
42:38
Speaker 8: at a higher level within the BBC over the weekend
42:42
Speaker 8: where he was told that the game was up.
42:44
Speaker 2: You've also published a story about how BBC bosses ignored
42:49
Speaker 2: warnings about woke conduct. Can you explain what happened?
42:54
Speaker 8: Well, I think for a long time the BBC has
42:57
Speaker 8: had this sort of.
42:58
Speaker 3: In built.
43:00
Speaker 8: Liberal left wing woke bias, and in fact, when Tim
43:04
Speaker 8: Davey got the job five years ago, one of the
43:06
Speaker 8: first things he did was to say that he wasn't
43:08
Speaker 8: going to stand for that anymore. But unfortunately he didn't.
43:12
Speaker 8: He didn't execute on the things that he was promising
43:15
Speaker 8: to do. So some examples of that I mentioned earlier.
43:19
Speaker 8: They're the LGBT Desk. So the BBC, the way it works,
43:23
Speaker 8: they have a pool of reporters who are used by
43:26
Speaker 8: all their different programs, so any stories about LGBT and
43:30
Speaker 8: particularly transgender issues have to go through this pool of reporters.
43:35
Speaker 8: They clearly had an agenda, as it said in the
43:39
Speaker 8: leaked report that my stories are based on, and whenever
43:42
Speaker 8: a story came up that sort of was against the
43:46
Speaker 8: agenda that they stood for. For example, anything about say,
43:49
Speaker 8: puberty blockers or the treatment of children under eighteens by
43:56
Speaker 8: gender dysphoria centers. Whenever those stories are being covered by
43:59
Speaker 8: other people, they just said, nope, we're not covering those stories.
44:02
Speaker 8: So the only thing that people were seeing BBC, the
44:06
Speaker 8: audience was seeing, was just overwhelmingly positive stories about transgender
44:11
Speaker 8: and not a balance at all. And then there were
44:15
Speaker 8: some stories about history as well, where they were doing
44:18
Speaker 8: history documentaries and they were getting barely low level, not
44:22
Speaker 8: very well qualified academics to come on those programs just
44:25
Speaker 8: to say the things they wanted them to say about
44:27
Speaker 8: Britain's colonial past. No balance, not acknowledging things like the
44:32
Speaker 8: wayal Navy's role in ending slavery that was raised, and
44:36
Speaker 8: the BBC ignored that as well because it just didn't
44:39
Speaker 8: fit with their worldview.
44:41
Speaker 2: Two final questions where to from here? Will there still
44:44
Speaker 2: be an inquiry? And secondly, can we expect any change
44:48
Speaker 2: at all? Or do you think the bias is so
44:50
Speaker 2: in built at the organization, so systemic that nothing will
44:54
Speaker 2: really ever change.
44:56
Speaker 8: Well, I mean that is the question that the BBC
44:58
Speaker 8: has to answer from here then, isn't it. So as
45:01
Speaker 8: far as the inquiry goes, I think that Parliament will
45:04
Speaker 8: still carry on with the hearings that they were going
45:06
Speaker 8: to have, because I think they'll recognize that just putting
45:09
Speaker 8: somebody else in the job and leaving them to get
45:11
Speaker 8: on with it probably isn't enough. I think they realize
45:15
Speaker 8: that the you know, an external source like Parliament needs
45:19
Speaker 8: to really get to the bottom of what was going
45:21
Speaker 8: on inside the BBC. And then I think the person
45:24
Speaker 8: who takes over from Tim Davey has got an absolute
45:27
Speaker 8: enormous job in their hands, because there is a temptation
45:30
Speaker 8: to think that the BBC has become ungovernable because of
45:33
Speaker 8: the way that so many people that work there seem
45:36
Speaker 8: to come to work with an agenda. But look, I
45:39
Speaker 8: think if a new person comes in, if they lay
45:42
Speaker 8: down the law from the word go, if they make
45:45
Speaker 8: it clear to people that if they are going to
45:46
Speaker 8: be biased, if they're not going to represent a broad
45:49
Speaker 8: range of views, then they'll be out of a job.
45:51
Speaker 8: And if they actually act on that rather than just
45:53
Speaker 8: talking about it, then look, I think the BBC could
45:56
Speaker 8: get back to the trustworthy, impartial broadcaster that it always
46:01
Speaker 8: has been. But it's going to be a huge job.
46:04
Speaker 2: God, and listening to you speak, you could be saying
46:06
Speaker 2: the same things about the ABC, the taxpayer funded broadcaster
46:10
Speaker 2: in Australia. It feels ungovernable no matter which managing directors
46:15
Speaker 2: go in. Gordon the biggest congratulations on your extraordinary reporting
46:19
Speaker 2: and I look forward to reading where it all goes
46:22
Speaker 2: from here. Well done, Thank you, Well, it's been a
46:26
Speaker 2: big story. Wouldn't it be good to have a similar
46:28
Speaker 2: leaked dossier about all the ABC cover ups? Surely there
46:32
Speaker 2: would be many, all right? Coming up, the United Nations
46:35
Speaker 2: enters the debate over whether biological men who become transgender
46:40
Speaker 2: women can breastfeed the UN. I'll tell you what their
46:44
Speaker 2: position is after the break. Welcome back.
46:51
Speaker 6: Well.
46:51
Speaker 2: The United Nations Special rapperteur on violence against Women and Girls,
46:56
Speaker 2: ram Al Salem, has waded into the debate over whether
46:59
Speaker 2: the transgender women born as men can breastfeed. She's told
47:04
Speaker 2: The Australian that males continue to be males irrespective of
47:08
Speaker 2: how they may identify. They do not breastfeed by definition,
47:13
Speaker 2: and she went on to say that the best interest
47:15
Speaker 2: of the newborn child that is meant to breastfeed should
47:18
Speaker 2: determine the decision, which should be made free from any
47:21
Speaker 2: ideological stands, including the desire that some male adults may
47:26
Speaker 2: have to use the breastfeeding issue to confirm their acquired
47:30
Speaker 2: identity as females. She says, a policy that centers the
47:34
Speaker 2: best interest of the child will take into account that
47:37
Speaker 2: the infants has the right to the highest standards of health,
47:42
Speaker 2: whose source at that stage of his or her life
47:45
Speaker 2: is vastly improved by receiving natural breast milk. Now it's
47:50
Speaker 2: not often that I agree with what the United Nations
47:53
Speaker 2: has to say, but I admit it is refreshing to
47:56
Speaker 2: see common sense still exists, at least in some parts
47:59
Speaker 2: of the institution. Now, her intervention has come after a
48:03
Speaker 2: complex case where a transgender woman claims she breastfed her
48:08
Speaker 2: child after taking medication to induce lactation. Now, the health
48:13
Speaker 2: benefits of this are still up in the air. There's
48:16
Speaker 2: a lot of debate about it. I'm going to tell
48:18
Speaker 2: you more about that story on the show tomorrow night,
48:21
Speaker 2: And just a reminder, tomorrow night, I'm on at eight
48:23
Speaker 2: thirty after the documentary of the Dismissal. So I'll see
48:26
Speaker 2: you tomorrow night at eight thirty. But right now for Murray,
48:30
Speaker 2: hosted by James McPherson, is up next.