Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 13: At The End of Your Rope? +Preacher Myths (Lions Lay Down with the Lamb? Folded Napkin, Sparing the Rod, God Running?!) with Dr. Mike Stewart and Pastor Grant Combs

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Episode 13: At The End of Your Rope? +Preacher Myths (Lions Lay Down with the Lamb? Folded Napkin, Sparing the Rod, God Running?!) with Dr. Mike Stewart and Pastor Grant Combs · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

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Speaker0: Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,
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Speaker0: soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship
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Speaker0: and the broader kingdom of God.
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Speaker0: Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole
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Speaker0: and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.
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Speaker0: Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal
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Speaker0: of making every church flourish.
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Speaker1: Hello, everybody, and welcome into episode number 14 of the Every Church Flourishing
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Speaker1: podcast sponsored by the Great Commission Association of California.
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Speaker1: If you are a California pastor or church leader looking for a home,
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Speaker1: get in touch with us through our website, gcasbc.org.
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Speaker1: We would love to partner with you, and I think you will find a home with us.
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Speaker1: Today, the senior director of the GCA, Dr.
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Speaker1: Mike Stewart, and I interview Pastor Grant Combs of Lighthouse Baptist in Seaside, California.
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Speaker1: We're going to be talking to him about how to respond when you're a leader,
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Speaker1: you're a pastor, and you feel like you're at the end of your rope.
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Speaker1: You're just about to let go and trouble's coming.
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Speaker1: In addition to pastoring Lighthouse, Grant is an ambassador to other pastors
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Speaker1: and church leaders, and he's going to kind of help us know how to see when disaster
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Speaker1: is coming, how to anticipate trouble. Yeah.
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Speaker1: And give us some practical steps to avoid disaster in ministry.
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Speaker1: We're going to get to that interview in just a moment, but let me plug a couple of things coming up.
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Speaker1: Very soon, we will have a couple of episodes with Dr.
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Speaker1: Kristen Ferguson, Vice President of Gateway Seminary, a mom,
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Speaker1: a pastor's wife, a lady in ministry, and an expert on the Christian use of AI.
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Speaker1: We're also going to be talking to Dr. Kathy Smith about women in ministry,
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Speaker1: women on mission, And this week, we are recording with Dr.
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Speaker1: Cameron Schweitzer, who is also with Gateway Seminary.
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Speaker1: He's the director of their campus in San Leandro, and we've got lots of other
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Speaker1: guests coming up as well. It's going to be a lot of fun.
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Speaker1: Now, after our main interview, we're going to talk about something that I think
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Speaker1: will be pretty interesting to you, whether you're a preacher or not.
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Speaker1: There are a lot of urban legends and myths in Christianity, and preachers like
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Speaker1: myself can be among the worst transmitters of these things.
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Speaker1: You've probably heard verses about lions lying down with lambs, right?
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Speaker1: And camels going through eyes of the needle and things like that.
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Speaker1: Well, we're going to talk in just a few minutes after our main interview about
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Speaker1: the danger of preacher myths and urban legends.
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Speaker1: So hang in there for that. And right now, let's go over to Dr.
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Speaker1: Mike Stewart and Grant Combs And let's talk about seeing danger coming at a
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Speaker1: distance so we swerve and avoid it and we don't run straight over it. Here we go.
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Speaker1: And we are joined by Pastor Grant Combs from Seaside, which is a nice little
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Speaker1: community right on the Pacific Ocean in Monterey Bay. Beautiful place.
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Speaker1: Pastor Grant, tell us a little bit about yourself, your church,
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Speaker1: all that kind of good stuff.
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Speaker0: Yeah, somebody had to be called here, man. It had to be me.
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Speaker1: Suffering.
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Speaker0: Suffering. That's right. I've been at Lighthouse Baptist for about 10 years, just over 10 years.
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Speaker0: We are right between Monterey, so just north of Monterey on the beautiful Monterey
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Speaker0: Bay. We have a congregation of just over 100 people. We're a sweet church family
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Speaker0: that loves the Lord and gets along.
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Speaker0: We're a fun little congregation.
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Speaker0: And, you know, We are no big deal, but we enjoy worshiping Jesus together every Sunday morning.
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Speaker0: Yeah, my wife and I have been on the peninsula since 2001.
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Speaker0: We both grew up in Orange County and came to the peninsula to work in Carmel.
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Speaker0: I know. It's been rough places. I worked in Carmel for 15 years doing youth
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Speaker0: and music ministry and then took the church that was already in the neighborhood
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Speaker0: where we were living about 10 years ago and have enjoyed it greatly.
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Speaker2: Well, Pastor Grant, I know that I still remember you coming on board there 10
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Speaker2: years ago and having that conversation with you.
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Speaker2: You got started doing that. I think you just recently wrote a paper about the
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Speaker2: issues that face pastors and burnout and those kinds of things.
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Speaker2: What led you to want to kind of investigate that and speak out?
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Speaker0: You know, I'm in a season of my life in ministry where a lot of guys burn out.
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Speaker0: And I've been doing ministry since I was like 20 years old, since before I knew
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Speaker0: that it was something you could actually do.
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Speaker0: You know, I was working with junior hires and led to a career in youth ministry,
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Speaker0: led to a career behind the pulpit.
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Speaker0: And I've just seen so many guys end up in the ditch, but not everybody.
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Speaker0: I've seen many guys finish the course and have faithful careers and enjoy it
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Speaker0: and have great families.
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Speaker0: And then other guys I've seen not only fall to great sin, but just be really
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Speaker0: miserable in the pulpit and resent their congregation and feel like they have nothing to say.
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Speaker0: And I love the Lord very much, and I love this church, and I want to be a pastor
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Speaker0: for the rest of my working career.
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Speaker0: But truthfully, I don't have skills to do anything else either.
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Speaker0: And so I see how people get stuck in a spot they don't want to be.
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Speaker0: And burnout looks like a lot of different things, but it really hurts families and congregations.
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Speaker0: And the ministry is too precious to do that. And so one of the motivations for
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Speaker0: doing some research was to avoid it. You know, do you be somebody who doesn't fall in that ditch?
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Speaker2: So what did you discover? What would be some signs or telltale indicators that
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Speaker2: that might be something that is starting to be in your ministry world?
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Speaker2: It might be creeping in on you.
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Speaker0: Yeah, I think some of it is the obvious things. It's, I'm not sleeping.
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Speaker0: I'm sleeping too much, gained a bunch of weight. I lost a bunch of weight.
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Speaker0: Some of those things that you can just tell biologically things are not going well in your life.
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Speaker0: But I do think a lot of it is, you know, there's seasons of,
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Speaker0: man, I love being behind the pulpit and seasons of, okay, this is a little bit
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Speaker0: of a grind. Is it Sunday again?
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Speaker0: You know, that kind of thing. But when it's more than that, when it's like,
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Speaker0: man, I really, I'm starting to resent the people that I'm serving.
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Speaker0: It's things like that. I'm starting to feel like I'm having to choose between
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Speaker0: my marriage and the church.
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Speaker0: I'm starting to feel like I'm having to hide so much about my life,
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Speaker0: about what my kids are up to, about what I'm doing as a hobby,
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Speaker0: about the way I'm blowing off steam.
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Speaker0: I'm having to hide so much of my life that I feel phony in the pulpit.
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Speaker0: I think those are the things you're looking for when you feel like a fraud.
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Speaker0: And I'm not talking about imposter syndrome. If you feel worthy to open up the
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Speaker0: holy scriptures to people, that's arrogance.
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Speaker0: You should not feel that. But when you really feel like I'm faking it here and
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Speaker0: there's, and I, and I'm not enjoying being a pastor anymore.
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Speaker0: And I resent the people that I work with. And I think those things,
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Speaker0: sneak up little by little and then all at once. And if you can be mindful about
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Speaker0: the little by little and avoid the all at once, it's a good thing.
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Speaker1: That's a great word. I recently counseled with a college student who was in
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Speaker1: the middle of exams and in a deeply stressful part of his life.
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Speaker1: And he was kind of talking to me about how everything was bad.
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Speaker1: All his relationships were bad and it felt to him like his life was kind of falling apart.
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Speaker1: And I said, well, hey, let's get through these exams and then see how you're feeling.
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Speaker1: So, you know, in light of that, Pastor Grant, Dr. Stewart, too,
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Speaker1: because you work with pastors for decades.
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Speaker1: What, how would you counsel somebody that comes to you and says,
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Speaker1: you know, hey, everything is feeling bad. I resent the people I'm with.
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Speaker1: I resent the church. I'm tired of it. I fantasize about doing other things, maybe quitting my job.
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Speaker1: When you feel those things, as you say, you're really kind of not at the beginning stages of burnout.
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Speaker1: You're sort of halfway or even three quarters of the way there.
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Speaker1: So let's say somebody's listening and everything is dark and dim and everything is struggle.
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Speaker1: What kinds of emergency steps should leaders in that position engage in?
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Speaker0: I think that we just had a conversation that I think will be on another episode
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Speaker0: about friendship, about having mentors, about having those kind of connections.
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Speaker0: And I do think the first thing is you need to be honest.
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Speaker0: With yourself and you need to be honest with somebody else. And you need to
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Speaker0: understand that this church has a Savior and it's not you.
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Speaker0: If you need to step away for a season of your life and go work at Home Depot,
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Speaker0: God bless you. That's not a terrible idea.
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Speaker0: At the same time, if you can work over a season, over three or six months,
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Speaker0: and get some help and get some advice and put in some good practices and see growth,
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Speaker0: you know, one of the things that I've just noticed is that no matter how deep
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Speaker0: and dark a hole you're in, any progress feels pretty good.
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Speaker0: So if you don't have to get all the way to healthy, if you can start doing some
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Speaker0: good things that are moving towards health, you're going to feel a lot better right away.
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Speaker0: And so you're the only one who's going to know whether that's possible in this situation.
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Speaker0: You might be to a point where you say, look, you're an affair waiting to happen,
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Speaker0: or you're an anger and abuse issue waiting to happen, or you're just about to steal the tithe, man.
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Speaker0: You have gone so far, you really need to take a step away from ministry.
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Speaker0: Or this is just a heavy load you're bearing, and there's still time. Repent.
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Speaker0: Get moving in the right direction. Get some folks around you.
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Speaker0: Pick up some spiritual disciplines that are helpful.
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Speaker0: And I think let's get through this season is really good advice.
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Speaker0: Let's start some things, let's work together, and let's see how you feel in a couple months.
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Speaker2: Yeah, great.
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Speaker1: Dr. Stewart, you pastor pastors. So if a pastor comes to you and says,
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Speaker1: hey, I resent the people, I'm tired of this, I wish I'd become an insurance salesman or whatever,
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Speaker1: what are the things you're going to say to them at the very beginning of that conversation?
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Speaker2: Well, I think when that's happening to a person, one of the things happening
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Speaker2: inside their life and in the congregation, is they don't think anybody cares.
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Speaker2: No one cares. And they may be—I mean—
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Speaker2: They may be married to Job's wife. There may be no one. Well,
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Speaker2: somebody's married to her.
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Speaker0: Probably.
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Speaker2: They come to this belief, and the enemy has them isolated and trapped in their
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Speaker2: mind that even if they tell someone, no one will care.
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Speaker2: I would say to them, if you're listening, you are so important to God.
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Speaker2: He knows everything, and you're important to other believers.
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Speaker2: And if you can't go to your congregation, that's one of the great things about
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Speaker2: being inside of an association.
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Speaker2: Our association has, it's not me, but they have an office that has me,
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Speaker2: someone like me in it, or Chris Smith in it, or Grant.
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Speaker2: It matters to us. It matters to us that a minister is feeling trapped and isolated and he's wrung out.
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Speaker0: Most of the guys I know.
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Speaker2: They are heroic and they will tie the knot on the rope and they will hang on
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Speaker2: until there's no flesh left on the bone.
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Speaker2: They are that committed. And then there's nothing left.
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Speaker2: So first of all, in your mind, people care about you.
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Speaker2: Pastors are cared about, and Satan will tell you that they're not important.
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Speaker2: Nobody respects you. That's not true in the kingdom of God.
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Speaker2: So I would say that first, that you're very important, even if you have something
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Speaker2: to share that you're embarrassed about. Who wants to say this out loud?
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Speaker2: I'm quitting. I'm giving up. I've spent my whole life. I've spent 40 years.
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Speaker2: So there's some things that are happening spiritually inside of us.
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Speaker2: And when we say it out loud, it's important for everyone listening to this person that they rally.
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Speaker2: Don't try to dissect it. Rally to them and tell them how important and how you're
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Speaker2: going to pray for them and help them and listen to them. You're not going to fix their issue.
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Speaker2: That issue that they have inside their heart, you're going to be an encourager
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Speaker2: or Barnabas alongside of them.
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Speaker2: You've got to commit to them because that person in front of you,
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Speaker2: they've been used in God in many ways. They're just not seeing the fruit of this moment.
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Speaker2: So that's the first thing. And secondly, I would encourage them.
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Speaker2: There are spiritual things that they need to lean into. Fasting.
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Speaker2: God, I can't hear you anymore. A lot of times, this is the issue.
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Speaker2: I can't hear God speaking to my life anymore. There's too many problems, too many issues.
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Speaker2: Change it up. Call your association. call a friend, come fill the pulpit for three weeks.
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Speaker2: I have to, I need to reconnect. That's another thing. Take time off.
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Speaker2: Get out of the, get out of the frying pan, you know, and take some time off, but don't lay around.
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Speaker2: Take some time off to spiritually engage with God. He cares.
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Speaker2: Even if you don't know how to do that perfectly with him, he cares and just
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Speaker2: say, I need to, I need, I need more of you, Lord, whether I'm pastoring or not.
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Speaker2: I need more of you in my life because That's certainly not that he hasn't trapped
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Speaker2: us in a corner of ministry and said, aha, aha, I knew you would quit when I got you here.
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Speaker2: That's not the work of the father. That's the enemy.
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Speaker2: And there's always Jesus said he was what? A gate.
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Speaker2: He was a gate. So he's the gate that we go through to get out of that trap place in that desolate place.
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Speaker2: He's always going to be the gate. And for pastors and us who are always around
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Speaker2: the Word of God and always around serving others,
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Speaker2: He's still the only answer to what we have.
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Speaker2: I saw this little cartoon the other day. This is a segue, but a little segue.
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Speaker2: There's a very complicated math problem. The student writes in,
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Speaker2: Jesus is always the answer.
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Speaker2: And the teacher writes below it, not on this question, minus five points.
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Speaker2: But for us, in this scenario, Jesus
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Speaker2: is always the answer. But they need encouragement, not discouragement.
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Speaker2: So you refrain from that if you're a friend or anyone around them.
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Speaker2: Because it's easy to judge and say, I can't believe you're giving up. But don't do that.
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Speaker2: Because God and his great power can redeem and restore.
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Speaker2: But he won't do it in five minutes. He will come to you and speak to you.
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Speaker2: But your friends around you, let's be the friends that Job didn't have.
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Speaker2: And be the friends that come around to you and say, we hear you.
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Speaker2: We love you. And we're praying with you.
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Speaker2: And maybe we can be the people that say, let's go on a prayer retreat,
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Speaker2: just you and me, because you're too important.
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Speaker2: And if you move in this direction, I'm with you.
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Speaker2: I'm with you as a friend, but I want God's will to be done in your life.
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Speaker2: And ultimately, maybe that's what it really is.
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Speaker2: They need something that's refreshing to them.
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Speaker2: They need someone to say, even though you lost that church vote,
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Speaker2: even though that lady said, you're a horrible pastor and you don't visit anybody
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Speaker2: in the hospital, when you came home from the hospital at one o'clock last night in the morning
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Speaker2: They need somebody else. Let that be us to those people.
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Speaker1: Amen.
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Speaker2: To the men in the ministry. But let us always be ready with the word of encouragement.
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Speaker1: Amen to that. So one of the things you point out, Dr.
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Speaker1: Stewart, that I think is a real dynamic among church leaders,
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Speaker1: pastors, and deacons and whatever is they will wait until it is an emergency
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Speaker1: issue before they ask for help.
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Speaker1: And with our health, our real physical health, if we do that,
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Speaker1: what we do is we generally skip going to the doctor and have to head straight to the emergency room.
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Speaker1: And that's not a wise way to practice things, to wait until your health is so
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Speaker1: bad you need to go to the hospital.
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Speaker1: So hopefully we leaders can model this because, again, we're being watched.
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Speaker1: We can model this for other people that before we're about to fall off the cliff
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Speaker1: into total destruction, we should ask for help.
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Speaker1: And to summarize your advices, both you guys gave very similar advice to people
16:58
Speaker1: in this situation. You focused on spiritual disciplines, your relationship with Jesus.
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Speaker1: You focused on Sabbath, taking a break, taking a rest, whatever that might look like.
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Speaker1: You focused on asking for help and looking for refreshment, whether that be
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Speaker1: in relationships or hobbies or whatever. One more thing to talk about with Pastor Grant.
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Speaker1: Let's talk a little bit about, please do. Yes, sir.
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Speaker2: Also, I also said, and this is key, you must believe that people care about you and your ministry.
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Speaker2: That's the idea that no one cares, and I've not been successful in however you measure success.
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Speaker2: That belief that people really do care about you. Because I can tell you,
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Speaker2: the GCA pastors, and we hear a lot of pastor concerns, a lot of,
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Speaker2: I don't ever have any staff person. We have prayer every Monday.
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Speaker2: We pray for our pastors in need and those kinds of things. Nobody, it's always important.
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Speaker2: That pastor and his ministry, it's never like, oh, well, hey, it's critical.
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Speaker2: But the enemy will tell you what your problems and your ministry are not important. That is a lie.
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Speaker2: Just acknowledging that you're not gonna agree with the enemy.
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Speaker2: About the ministry God has given you because the ministry comes from God.
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Speaker2: So I would just don't agree with the enemy, agree with God and that people really
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Speaker2: do care. They really will help you.
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Speaker1: I couldn't agree with you more. That's one of the things we focused on the early
18:19
Speaker1: episodes of this podcast is the benefits of being part of a team of associationalism
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Speaker1: so that you are not alone.
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Speaker1: And if you're a pastor out there and you feel alone, it's time to look for a
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Speaker1: home, a community in the same way that you would not have a church member do
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Speaker1: their Christian walk alone. pastors should not do their pastoring alone.
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Speaker1: So find your team. That's just so crucial. Well, last thing,
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Speaker1: we won't have a long time to talk about this, but let's at least hit on the issue of depression.
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Speaker1: Because according to the Duke Clergy Health Initiative,
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Speaker1: the rate of depression among pastors is roughly double the general population
18:59
Speaker1: of the United States, which you feel like it should be the other way around, half, not double.
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Speaker1: And 18% of the United States Protestant pastors,
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Speaker1: 18%, so nearly one in five, say they have contemplated self-harm or suicide
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Speaker1: within the past year, which, again, is a high number.
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Speaker1: So starting with you, Pastor Grant, and then Dr.
19:22
Speaker1: Stewart, what do you think explains the high rate of depression among pastors
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Speaker1: and church leaders and even that temptation or bent towards self-harm and suicide?
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Speaker0: Yeah, I think, first of all, well, two things. First of all,
19:38
Speaker0: when we're talking about burnout or depression, I'm not sure we're talking about
19:42
Speaker0: entirely different things.
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Speaker0: I think that these are similar issues in a pastor's life.
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Speaker0: I also just want to be clear. I assume you're talking about situational depression.
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Speaker0: This is not a chemical issue, a biological issue. This is not something for
19:59
Speaker0: a doctor. This is an otherwise healthy person that just is in despair because
20:05
Speaker0: of the situation of life they're in.
20:08
Speaker0: And, you know, I was very taken by Jim Berg wrote an article that just meant the world to me.
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Speaker0: And he had it's I know this is an audio thing. So describing a graphic is not
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Speaker0: great, but he has an image that looks like a bridge.
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Speaker0: And the platform of the bridge is two things, mind and body.
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Speaker0: The upright of the bridge underneath it is a disciplined mind and body.
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Speaker0: So those are like drink some water, get some rest, take a day off,
20:37
Speaker0: hit the gym, like get some exercise and, you know, be a healthy person and don't
20:42
Speaker0: only read theology, mix in some of the sports page and like,
20:46
Speaker0: you know, just good stuff.
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Speaker0: I don't know if self-care is the word you want to use, but take care of your mind and your body.
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Speaker0: The other upright to the bridge is a renewed mind.
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Speaker0: So this is all of the, this is, you know, read and put all of those spiritual
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Speaker0: disciplines into place.
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Speaker0: And this is the fasting and this is the celebration and this is the prayer and
21:09
Speaker0: this is all of that stuff.
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Speaker0: And so if you if you build those uprights well, your mind and your body will
21:16
Speaker0: be able to take a certain amount of pressures.
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Speaker0: So the things we put on top of those that are the pressures of life.
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Speaker0: And I think one of the big things is those are not all bad.
21:27
Speaker0: Sometimes you took on too many good things.
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Speaker0: Sometimes you just don't have the ability to handle everything that you have
21:36
Speaker0: put on your table. And I also think like we automatically go to this is a spiritual issue.
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Speaker0: Sometimes it is a physical issue. We are embodied beings like so it could be
21:47
Speaker0: that you are there's been a medical issue in your life and you're dealing with
21:52
Speaker0: that and you feel like, oh, well, I should be able to.
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Speaker0: Deal with that and take on everything I've always taken on because God is with me.
22:00
Speaker0: And you go, God is with you, but God's with the people that you're serving too.
22:04
Speaker0: And so to think about when I'm feeling like there's too much,
22:08
Speaker0: when I'm feeling like I can't do it, when I'm feeling like there's so much pressure
22:12
Speaker0: on this table that I can't bear it, you have a couple of issues.
22:17
Speaker0: You have a couple of options.
22:18
Speaker0: You strengthen your mind, strengthen your body, or take some of the pressures off.
22:22
Speaker0: And I think that, you know, we are all hired by wonderful, sweet congregations
22:29
Speaker0: who have no idea what it means to be a pastor.
22:31
Speaker0: And so they are fully willing to put as much on top of your table as you will say yes to.
22:39
Speaker0: And not only that, but you're raising children or you're in certain seasons
22:44
Speaker0: of life and you have parents you're taking care of and all of these things.
22:47
Speaker0: They don't have to be bad, but they are pressures.
22:50
Speaker0: And I think it's also okay to say, I might not be able to take on everything the guy next door can.
22:56
Speaker0: Yeah. I don't know why God, he's going to have to stand before God on his own.
23:00
Speaker0: And I'm going to have to stand before God on my own.
23:02
Speaker0: And so if you feel like that in the bridge metaphor, if you feel the bridge sagging.
23:08
Speaker0: Don't wait till it breaks. You have to articulate. And this is where you go
23:12
Speaker0: to some friends too and go, here, are there things in my life that I could gird
23:16
Speaker0: up, that I could be strengthened?
23:17
Speaker0: Are there spiritual disciplines? Are there friendships?
23:20
Speaker0: Are there like, do I need to, you know, buy a bike and get in better shape?
23:26
Speaker0: Like, would those things help?
23:27
Speaker0: Or is this an issue of there's just too much on the table and no good,
23:31
Speaker0: healthy person is going to be able to do this forever.
23:35
Speaker0: And so the idea that my options are the bridge breaks or it doesn't,
23:42
Speaker0: that's not, those are wrong choices.
23:45
Speaker0: The truth is probably that the table of your life is going to get weaker and
23:52
Speaker0: weaker and weaker over time.
23:53
Speaker0: And by the time you're using words like depression and despair man there were
24:00
Speaker0: signs a long time ago and so when you feel that that the burden is too much.
24:06
Speaker0: Either take something off or find a way to gird yourself up.
24:09
Speaker0: And if you go, I'm trying to gird myself up, I'm fasting, I'm giving,
24:14
Speaker0: I'm praying, I'm memorizing, I'm doing everything.
24:17
Speaker0: And I still feel this unbearable burden.
24:20
Speaker0: Take something off your plate. It's the only option because it's going to cost
24:24
Speaker0: you, it's going to cost you much more in the near future.
24:28
Speaker0: And, you know, I do, I said it before, and I do think that building into those
24:34
Speaker0: most primary relationships, you know, I think there's a reason that Paul tells
24:38
Speaker0: Timothy, hey, find guys whose family is in good order.
24:41
Speaker0: It's not that like you have to have your kids and better not be a mess and embarrass the church.
24:47
Speaker0: No, it's if you have stuff going on at home that is causing a huge burden on
24:53
Speaker0: you, go take care of that.
24:55
Speaker0: Like that needs to be the thing that you care about. That's gonna take a lot of time.
24:59
Speaker0: So there might be a season where you go, guys, I'm not going to potlucks for
25:03
Speaker0: a while. I gotta take care of some stuff at home.
25:06
Speaker0: This is, you know, I'm going to only be in the office a couple days a week for
25:09
Speaker0: a season because I've got to take care of home.
25:12
Speaker0: You're not going to be able to bear all of the burdens, all of the pressures
25:15
Speaker0: that life is going to ask of you.
25:18
Speaker0: You're going to have to find out what is peak me. How do I be as strong as I can be?
25:23
Speaker0: And then what's the appropriate amount of things I can say yes to?
25:27
Speaker0: And if it's more than that, if you go to a congregation and go,
25:31
Speaker0: guys, I've got too much on my plate and I feel like I'm breaking,
25:34
Speaker0: I need to say no to some things.
25:36
Speaker0: And they respond badly to that, then you need to go find another place.
25:41
Speaker0: Like you need to, you need to
25:42
Speaker0: find someplace that, that understands that a person can only do so much.
25:47
Speaker0: So I think if what you're talking about is situational depression,
25:52
Speaker0: just the world is caving in on me.
25:54
Speaker0: I can't, I can't bear this up anymore.
25:58
Speaker0: You know, sometimes you have a great victory and you defeat all of the prophets
26:04
Speaker0: of Baal and you feel great.
26:06
Speaker0: And then the next day you're sitting under a tree crying and feeling like you're all alone.
26:10
Speaker0: And some of that's just welcome to life in ministry. But when it's year three
26:16
Speaker0: under that broom tree, it's time to go, I've taken on too much.
26:19
Speaker0: I have to take some stuff off of this. And then if I can't gird myself up to
26:24
Speaker0: the point where this is joyful, I got to figure out what has to go.
26:28
Speaker1: All right. Those are good insights. And yes, of course, we may be over-medicated
26:33
Speaker1: as a society, but there is nothing in scripture that would rule out a person
26:38
Speaker1: with literal clinical depression from getting medicine.
26:41
Speaker1: And I know the church has shamed that in some instances, and we have,
26:45
Speaker1: I think, wrongly done so. Yeah.
26:47
Speaker0: I think that's part of the body, part of mind, body, and spirit. Am I strong?
26:52
Speaker0: If you've got a problem with your brain, It's not necessarily a problem with
26:57
Speaker0: your mind and get healthy.
26:59
Speaker1: Be healthy. Yeah, agree. Dr. Stewart, what would you like to add to all that?
27:03
Speaker2: I think that was pretty comprehensive. I don't have a whole lot more to add to the issue.
27:08
Speaker2: I just think one of the things that I have dealt with is, and it's been from
27:12
Speaker2: guys who've been in the ministry a while, and it's been a real,
27:16
Speaker2: it's been challenging for their families.
27:18
Speaker2: And it's when they come to the road where they're really their wife is saying,
27:22
Speaker2: she just can't do it anymore.
27:24
Speaker2: And that is, can't do it anymore. She feels like she's faking it.
27:28
Speaker2: And that caused, there's all kinds of challenges that come with that.
27:32
Speaker2: And if that's you and you're listening, I would say to you that you're one flesh.
27:37
Speaker2: The Christian marriage is totally different than the secular world.
27:40
Speaker2: You are one flesh before God. And at that point,
27:44
Speaker2: You need to, I would say, you need to take care of her.
27:48
Speaker2: And as hard as it would sound, go before the Lord and pray with her about stepping
27:53
Speaker2: down from that level of leadership.
27:56
Speaker2: Not stepping away from the Lord or stepping away from his church,
27:59
Speaker2: but stepping away from that level of leadership so that her heart can be restored
28:05
Speaker2: to whatever God has next.
28:06
Speaker2: But if she's there and you're not listening, that will be a bad ending.
28:11
Speaker2: And she's got to be an honest person, too. God put, you know,
28:14
Speaker2: and I've helped, I would say, five or six guys over my ministry deal with that issue.
28:20
Speaker2: And some lost everything because they believed that they had to stay in the
28:27
Speaker2: church in order to honor God, and they would be able to lose their wife and stay in the ministry.
28:32
Speaker2: But that seems sideways thinking to me as to what the Lord was wanting to do.
28:39
Speaker2: Anyway, so that can be a huge issue going on in people's lives. So get some help.
28:43
Speaker2: You know, the things we reiterated, there's people care about you deeply,
28:47
Speaker2: people you don't even know.
28:49
Speaker2: If you're a pastor, honestly, with a lot of Christian people,
28:52
Speaker2: if you say you're a pastor and you need help,
28:55
Speaker2: triggers all kinds of spiritual things inside of the hearts of the normal believer.
29:01
Speaker2: And so just take that to heart.
29:03
Speaker1: Yeah, good word. And we have an upcoming episode where we're going to be talking
29:07
Speaker1: about wives in ministry, ministry wives, supporting them.
29:10
Speaker1: And I think it's the kind of insight we would get from somebody who pastors
29:15
Speaker1: pastors that an issue struggles in the pastor's wife can lead to struggles in everything.
29:22
Speaker1: Because generally speaking, at least in my experience, with my wife and most
29:27
Speaker1: of the pastors I know, our wives are not just a pastoral wife.
29:32
Speaker1: They are playing the game. They are in it. They are, you know,
29:35
Speaker1: maybe we're a point guard, they're a shooting guard, something like that.
29:38
Speaker1: They are so immersed in the life of the church. And if they're not being taken
29:42
Speaker1: care of, if they're not resting enough, and it's something I have to remind
29:46
Speaker1: myself of all the time, if they're not resting enough, then the whole thing
29:50
Speaker1: is, your whole ministry is in danger.
29:53
Speaker2: Well, have me back on that episode. I'll tell a great story that will resonate
29:57
Speaker2: with your audience. Well, fantastic.
30:00
Speaker1: We will do that. One more thing before we go out.
30:03
Speaker1: Pastor Grant, tell us about your role with the GCA just in general,
30:07
Speaker1: how you work with pastors.
30:09
Speaker1: I know it's a relatively new role for you, but tell us what you do and how it's going so far.
30:15
Speaker0: Yeah. Well, an expert at it. I've been doing That's fantastic.
30:40
Speaker0: The people you serve think that you live at church and would be shocked to see
30:46
Speaker0: you elsewhere or whatever.
30:47
Speaker0: And so to have a, I think the role is connecting us, doing some team captain
30:52
Speaker0: stuff, pastor to pastor encouragement.
30:54
Speaker0: And with all things, this is the way ministry is, whether it's visiting other
30:58
Speaker0: churches or hospital visits or whatever. Or, you know, what I'm already finding
31:02
Speaker0: is I walk away from every meeting saying, well, I'm the one that got blessed there.
31:08
Speaker0: There's a great bunch of guys in the GCA that genuinely are answering sincere
31:17
Speaker0: call to an important assignment.
31:20
Speaker0: You know, let's over the next year or so get a system where we don't feel alone,
31:25
Speaker0: where we have built some relationships, where there's genuine friendships there.
31:30
Speaker0: And so it'll be sort of slow going, you know, I'm very part time.
31:33
Speaker0: And so I'm meeting individually with guys right now, trying to figure out who
31:37
Speaker0: has a heart to get together, who has a heart to set aside some time.
31:41
Speaker0: You know, the one of my biggest hopes is that we would be able to do some ministry
31:46
Speaker0: alongside each other, too.
31:47
Speaker0: It's one thing to be friends together. But, you know, a lot of us are the size
31:50
Speaker0: churches where it's hard to do a big men's event or a big event of any kind.
31:56
Speaker0: But if three or four of us got together, we could have a pretty good time and
32:00
Speaker0: not have to be the one running the whole thing and generating every idea.
32:04
Speaker0: And so if we can have the idea that we're together in friendship,
32:07
Speaker0: we're together in ministry, that would be a real blessing. It's something that
32:12
Speaker0: I crave, that I have hoped for.
32:16
Speaker0: And the other thing is we have some small churches, and to have the message of, man.
32:23
Speaker0: The hope is not always that every church triples in size. To be a loving church
32:28
Speaker0: family of any size is so important.
32:31
Speaker0: You are the man, the family that God has called to proclaim Christ as King on
32:37
Speaker0: that corner, on that street, in that neighborhood.
32:40
Speaker0: And that is a profound and noble and sacred work that has nothing to do with
32:46
Speaker0: how many people are in the pews or what exciting story you have to tell.
32:51
Speaker0: And so to help people sense the importance in that role and to know that people
32:56
Speaker0: are praying and serving alongside, that's the, that's the.
33:00
Speaker1: That's great. I don't know your official title. I do sometimes I've forgotten
33:04
Speaker1: it, but I consider you kind of the ambassador of the message that you are not alone.
33:09
Speaker1: And we need a lot of those people in the field. Well, Dr. Starr,
33:13
Speaker1: Dr. Stewart, do you have any parting shots or last words before we close out.
33:17
Speaker2: I think this has been a great topic. It's one that, you know,
33:20
Speaker2: you don't talk about this. You don't go to the pastor's meeting and say,
33:23
Speaker2: hey, let's talk about how I'm depressed.
33:25
Speaker2: So hopefully if you're riding in your car, you're sitting in your church office
33:29
Speaker2: thinking about this, this is
33:30
Speaker2: something the enemy will use for us to get fixated on what's not working.
33:35
Speaker2: And you're not alone. A lot of guys come to this. It's like you're saying,
33:38
Speaker2: there are guys that get to the point 20%, It's not 20%. Don't let that happen.
33:43
Speaker2: I'll just say, be proactive. What Grant was talking about. What's your bridge feel like?
33:48
Speaker2: And you don't have to take everything. You don't have to take everything that
33:52
Speaker2: everybody else wants to hand you. You have a high calling. Filter.
33:57
Speaker2: Filter what gets onto your bridge and say, you know, brother,
34:00
Speaker2: sister, I love you, but that's not me. I can't bear that.
34:04
Speaker2: This is my—I'm running in this lane. God will provide.
34:09
Speaker2: I was listening to some guys talk about they needed things.
34:13
Speaker2: They needed people to help and that kind of stuff. And I asked them,
34:16
Speaker2: have you prayed for this? because they kept asking me, you know,
34:19
Speaker2: that, hey, I need people.
34:20
Speaker2: Have you prayed about it? Because this is going to most benefit you.
34:24
Speaker2: Have you prayed about it? No, I haven't yet. Well, you pray about it, brother.
34:27
Speaker2: And, you know, the pastor has other things that can do, but this is important.
34:31
Speaker2: But it's only as important as you make it before God.
34:34
Speaker2: And you pray about it and then see what God does. And then I'll be,
34:38
Speaker2: I'm praying for you to pray.
34:40
Speaker2: And so I just say, filter what gets onto your must do or have to do list.
34:47
Speaker2: Grant has some wisdom there, your calendar, all the things that can protect
34:50
Speaker2: you. Do the work God's called you to do, but don't do other people's work.
34:55
Speaker1: Yeah, yes. Amen to that. Well, I will close this out with a quote from my guy,
35:00
Speaker1: Charles Spurgeon, probably my ministry hero.
35:03
Speaker1: He was one of the first megachurch pastors, brilliant mind, and he struggled
35:08
Speaker1: greatly with depression and he wrote about it frequently.
35:12
Speaker1: And this was in the 1800s. And it's kind of shocking that depression in the
35:16
Speaker1: church still has the stigma that it does now, considering some of these early
35:20
Speaker1: guys, Richard Baxter and Charles Spurgeon, who talked about it a little bit.
35:24
Speaker1: Of course, he didn't differentiate between clinical depression and situational
35:28
Speaker1: depression, but he did say, our depressions may tend to our fruitfulness.
35:34
Speaker1: A heart bowed down with despair is a dreadful thing.
35:38
Speaker1: Proverbs 18, 14, a broken spirit who may bear it. But if you have never had
35:43
Speaker1: such an experience, you will not be worth a pin as a preacher.
35:47
Speaker1: You can't help others who are depressed unless you have been down in the depths yourself.
35:53
Speaker1: You cannot lift others out of despondency and depression unless you yourself
35:58
Speaker1: sometimes need to be lifted out of such experiences.
36:02
Speaker1: You must be compassed with this infirmity too in times in order to have compassion
36:07
Speaker1: on those in similar cases.
36:09
Speaker1: Our whole nature, says Spurgeon, as feeble men may be turned to the noblest
36:15
Speaker1: use if it calls forth our compassion towards others.
36:19
Speaker1: When we are less than nothing, the all-sufficiency of God will be all the more manifested.
36:26
Speaker2: I think that's a good truth to end on.
36:28
Speaker1: So thank you, Dr. Stewart. Thank you, Pastor Grant, for your time.
36:32
Speaker1: May the Lord bless you and your ministry.
36:35
Speaker1: Well, so if you're a pastor or church leader, I think you're going to have gotten
36:38
Speaker1: a lot out of that interview.
36:40
Speaker1: Grant is a stand-up, straight-shooting kind of guy, my favorite kind of guy.
36:45
Speaker1: And I love talking with him about things in the ministry and pitfalls to avoid.
36:51
Speaker1: Well, credibility and integrity are important. I mean, that's pretty obvious, right?
36:58
Speaker1: I don't think any real Christian would disagree with that statement.
37:02
Speaker1: Jesus spoke the truth. He identified himself as a truth speaker,
37:07
Speaker1: a truth teller in John chapter 8.
37:09
Speaker1: In fact, he noted that some of the Jews wanted to kill him because he told them
37:13
Speaker1: the truth. The truth isn't always popular.
37:17
Speaker1: And in John chapter 8, Jesus also noted that Satan was the one who peddled lies.
37:23
Speaker1: In fact, Jesus said to the Jews, you are of your father, the devil,
37:27
Speaker1: and you want to carry out your father's desires.
37:29
Speaker1: He was a murderer from the beginning,
37:31
Speaker1: and he does not stand in the truth because there's no truth in him.
37:35
Speaker1: When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature because he is a liar and the father of lies.
37:42
Speaker1: When we lie, we identify and support the father of lies, as it were,
37:47
Speaker1: and we repudiate and reject, at least temporarily, Jesus, the way, the truth, and the life.
37:54
Speaker1: Over the past five years, I've
37:55
Speaker1: seen a genuine flood of Christians publicly sharing false information,
38:00
Speaker1: and very few things other than hypocrisy does more to erode and undermine our
38:06
Speaker1: claims about Jesus than sharing lies about other things.
38:10
Speaker1: I've seen Christians share just tons of unverified lies.
38:15
Speaker1: Urban legends, myths, rumors, that sort of thing as true.
38:20
Speaker1: I'm seeing it more and more, more than ever in my lifetime.
38:23
Speaker1: And honestly, it kind of worries me greatly.
38:26
Speaker1: Think about it. What skeptic would trust a habitual liar to point them to the way of eternal life?
38:32
Speaker1: At some point, I'm hoping to have a deep discussion with our co-host,
38:37
Speaker1: Pastor Christopher Cole, on Christian urban legends and the Christian spread
38:42
Speaker1: of myth as fact in an upcoming episode.
38:45
Speaker1: I expect such things from worldly sources. For instance, Joe Rogan's podcast
38:50
Speaker1: a couple years ago had a New York Times writer and college journalism professor named Michelle Dowd on.
38:58
Speaker1: And she had a lot of claims about the Bible. For instance, she claimed that
39:02
Speaker1: the first gospel written about Jesus wasn't written until about a hundred years
39:07
Speaker1: after his death. And look, that's just not true.
39:10
Speaker1: Textual evidence argues strongly against that.
39:13
Speaker1: But those kind of things are said all the time by skeptics and conspiracy theorists
39:17
Speaker1: and people who claim to be experts but aren't.
39:20
Speaker1: And Dowd also said that the expression pearls before swine was somehow related
39:26
Speaker1: to the parable of the prodigal son. It's not.
39:29
Speaker1: Tamar and Bathsheba are ignored or treated poorly in modern Christianity,
39:34
Speaker1: and I don't think they are.
39:36
Speaker1: And most Christians solely blame Eve for the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden.
39:42
Speaker1: And you know what? That's not biblical, and I haven't really heard Christians do that.
39:47
Speaker1: Yes, she got deceived, but honestly, in the Bible and in most people's thinking,
39:51
Speaker1: the blame falls on her guy, Adam.
39:53
Speaker1: Romans 5.12, Paul says, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one
39:59
Speaker1: man and death through sin, in this way death spread to all people because all sinned.
40:05
Speaker1: Or 1 Corinthians 15.22, For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
40:13
Speaker1: And I see secular academics and pundits and journalists and podcasters and broadcasters
40:19
Speaker1: or whatever, they make factual mistakes and false claims about the Bible all the time.
40:24
Speaker1: And again, I suppose that's not very surprising, but preachers and Christian
40:30
Speaker1: leaders and Christian teachers should not do the same thing.
40:34
Speaker1: There's a reliance out there on unverified illustrations and stories and things
40:39
Speaker1: like that to go along with the teaching of the word.
40:43
Speaker1: And it leads to this terrible repetition of preacher myths, which kind of itself
40:48
Speaker1: carries some really significant long-term risks to our credibility.
40:53
Speaker1: When listeners discover that an illustration or story used to substantiate or
40:59
Speaker1: illuminate a core theological truth is a fabrication,
41:03
Speaker1: the credibility of the theology is compromised big time as well as the overall
41:09
Speaker1: believability of the preacher.
41:11
Speaker1: Beyond that, I guess the borrowing of illustrations without independent verification,
41:15
Speaker1: without doing your homework, it kind of borders on plagiarism as speakers.
41:21
Speaker1: They share these myths as truth, and it spreads around in a viral sort of way,
41:27
Speaker1: and it's just bad for our credibility.
41:32
Speaker1: Well, TLDR, lying preachers are bad, and that's what we're going to talk about a little bit today.
41:37
Speaker1: We're going to talk about preacher myths, and I've got five of them for you.
41:42
Speaker1: We're going to begin, number one, with made-up verses or near verses.
41:47
Speaker1: And there look there's a lot of pseudo bible verses out there like cleanliness
41:51
Speaker1: is next to godliness that is not
41:55
Speaker1: a Bible verse, but a Bible guy, I guess, a preacher came up with it,
42:00
Speaker1: John Wesley, who said that let it be observed, the slovenliness is no part of religion.
42:07
Speaker1: Neither this nor any text of scripture condemns neatness of apparel.
42:11
Speaker1: Certainly this is a duty, not a sin.
42:14
Speaker1: Cleanliness is indeed next to godliness. And even back in the second century,
42:19
Speaker1: Rabbi Pinchas Benyar, not a
42:20
Speaker1: Christian, but a teacher of the Jews said that zeal leads to cleanliness.
42:26
Speaker1: Cleanliness leads to purity. Purity leads to restraint.
42:29
Speaker1: Restraint leads to holiness. Holiness leads to humility. Humility leads to fear of sin.
42:35
Speaker1: Fear of sin leads to piety. Piety leads to divine inspiration.
42:39
Speaker1: And he was one of the earliest guys who really connected cleanliness with godliness somehow.
42:46
Speaker1: And it It sounds like he also was an early discipler of Yoda.
42:50
Speaker1: The Bible does not say money is the root of all evil, but the love of money is the root of all evil.
42:57
Speaker1: It does not say spare the rod, spoil the child, but it does say something very, very similar.
43:03
Speaker1: Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children
43:08
Speaker1: is careful to discipline them.
43:10
Speaker1: Now, I guess spare the rod, spoil the child is kind of a boiled down version
43:15
Speaker1: of that. It's in the neighborhood, at least.
43:17
Speaker1: Most Christians and preachers actually know those verses are in the Bible,
43:21
Speaker1: or that it really is the love of money, not money is the root of all evil.
43:26
Speaker1: But that might not be true for preacher myth number two.
43:30
Speaker1: Will the lion indeed lie down with the lamb?
43:34
Speaker1: Well, I guess it's possible. It sounds like it's very plausible,
43:38
Speaker1: but the Bible doesn't actually say that.
43:42
Speaker1: Instead, specifically, the Bible actually says in Isaiah 11,
43:46
Speaker1: 6, the wolf will dwell with the lamb and the leopard will lie down with the goat.
43:53
Speaker1: And in Isaiah 65, 25, similar, the wolf and the lamb will feed together and
44:01
Speaker1: the lion will eat straw like cattle, but the serpent's food will be dust.
44:07
Speaker1: And there's also passages about babies playing near snake holes.
44:10
Speaker1: So lots of things like that are going to happen, but the Bible never specifically
44:15
Speaker1: says the lion will lie down with the lamb.
44:18
Speaker1: Now, you're not being led too far astray with that preacher myth.
44:23
Speaker1: But we should still strive for accuracy, which brings me to number three.
44:29
Speaker1: And this one might disappoint some of our Benny Hester and Phillips Craig and
44:34
Speaker1: Dean old school Christian music fans.
44:38
Speaker1: But the fact is that first century Jewish men sometimes did run.
44:45
Speaker1: Now, lots of preachers and several popular Christian songs share that widely
44:51
Speaker1: repeated claim that in ancient Jewish and even broader Middle Eastern culture,
44:56
Speaker1: it was considered deeply shameful,
44:59
Speaker1: humiliating, and entirely unprecedented for an older noble patriarch to run.
45:05
Speaker1: And part of that, I guess, the thought was that running requires a man to lift
45:09
Speaker1: his flowing robes, therefore exposing his ankles, his bare legs.
45:14
Speaker1: And it was seen, the story goes, as a profound loss of dignity.
45:17
Speaker1: And therefore, in the parable of the prodigal son,
45:21
Speaker1: the father running to his returning son represents this earth-shattering break
45:26
Speaker1: from cultural norms symbolizing God
45:29
Speaker1: casting aside all dignity to welcome a repentant sinner. but is it true?
45:36
Speaker1: Here's the thing. It's not exactly true.
45:40
Speaker1: Honestly, we have virtually no evidence for those claims.
45:44
Speaker1: It was probably unusual and socially undignified for an older patriarch in the
45:51
Speaker1: Middle East in the first century during Jesus's day to run in public,
45:56
Speaker1: but it certainly wasn't a law or anything like that.
46:00
Speaker1: And in the Bible, you're going to find Abraham ran, and so did John and Peter.
46:04
Speaker1: Of course, John outran him.
46:06
Speaker1: Laban ran. Moses ran. Esau ran. And the origin of this, probably in modern times,
46:12
Speaker1: goes back to the New Testament scholar Kenneth Bailey in his 1976 book, Poet and Peasant.
46:19
Speaker1: Now, Bailey was a good scholar, and he cited Aristotle,
46:22
Speaker1: and he cited the apocryphal book of Sirach and he cited modern Middle Eastern
46:30
Speaker1: society and argued that oriental noblemen with flowing robes never ran anywhere to do so is humiliating
46:40
Speaker1: But the problem is, he didn't really have historical backup for that.
46:46
Speaker1: Historical context demonstrates that while a slow,
46:50
Speaker1: deliberate kind of walking pace was generally a sign of dignity among people
46:56
Speaker1: in the first century, especially men, it was not as taboo as some preachers
47:02
Speaker1: seem to have made it. Men ran in war.
47:05
Speaker1: They ran to convey urgent news. They, of course, ran in athletic competition,
47:10
Speaker1: and they ran at times of emotional distress, and probably they ran to go to
47:15
Speaker1: the bathroom and get water and things like that.
47:18
Speaker1: To state categorically that first century men never ran kind of artificially
47:24
Speaker1: inflates the cultural shock of that part of the parable.
47:28
Speaker1: And here's the important thing. It's totally unnecessary, and it adds nothing
47:35
Speaker1: to the story of the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15.
47:40
Speaker1: The running is not emphasized in the text because the running is not really the big deal.
47:48
Speaker1: It's a detail. It might be somewhat significant, but the bigger mind-blowing
47:54
Speaker1: detail is the father met his son.
47:57
Speaker1: And instantly dismissed his silly plan to get a job, the son get a job with
48:03
Speaker1: the dad, he fell on his neck and kissed him.
48:07
Speaker1: Surely that massive hug and kiss is the bigger and more potent symbol of love,
48:14
Speaker1: grace, mercy, forgiveness, and welcome.
48:16
Speaker1: But wait, there's more. Because the father called for his best robe,
48:22
Speaker1: his rings, sandals, a fattened cap to be slaughtered, and a feast, a party.
48:29
Speaker1: These are the big things. These are the massive things.
48:33
Speaker1: Great. The dad ran. But all of those other things really just speak louder.
48:38
Speaker1: The father rejoices incredibly. I mean, even to the point where his older son
48:43
Speaker1: is like, why all this commotion and all this fuss? This isn't fair.
48:48
Speaker1: Why we focus on the running part is strange to me.
48:51
Speaker1: The song really should be more along the lines of when God had a party and all
48:56
Speaker1: of heaven celebrated, which is,
48:58
Speaker1: again, more impactful than running and also very biblically accurate because
49:02
Speaker1: Luke 15 portrays multiple celebrations in heaven and joy by the Father, by God himself,
49:11
Speaker1: the creator of everything, when the lost are found and sinners repent.
49:16
Speaker1: All right, number four, horses and donkeys. Everybody knows Mary rode a donkey to Bethlehem, right?
49:24
Speaker1: And not everybody knows, but a lot of people know that Paul fell off of his
49:29
Speaker1: horse on the Damascus road in Acts 9 when Jesus appeared to him in a vision, right?
49:35
Speaker1: Well, maybe.
49:38
Speaker2: Maybe not.
49:40
Speaker1: We don't know really because the Bible never mentions a donkey in the Jesus
49:44
Speaker1: Nativity stories and it doesn't mention a horse on the road to Damascus.
49:49
Speaker1: In fact, in reading the Acts account, number one, there's not a horse mentioned
49:54
Speaker1: in the whole book of Acts.
49:55
Speaker1: But number two, it seems very likely reading Acts 9 that Paul was not riding a horse.
50:02
Speaker1: I mean, probably it would have been mentioned. It does say he fell down,
50:05
Speaker1: but I think Luke would have told us if he'd fallen off of a horse.
50:09
Speaker1: That myth is so pervasive that it has infected most modern AI platforms.
50:16
Speaker1: And when I today asked both Gemini's Nano Banana 2 and ChatGPT to produce a
50:22
Speaker1: picture of Paul meeting Jesus on the Damascus Road, as recorded in Acts 9,
50:28
Speaker1: Both of them made illustrations that prominently featured Paul falling off of a horse.
50:35
Speaker1: Similarly, the same thing happened with Mary and the donkey.
50:39
Speaker1: I said, and I quote, please make a similar illustration of Mary and Joseph traveling
50:45
Speaker1: to Bethlehem using only what is recorded in Matthew and Luke.
50:50
Speaker1: The only person who rides a donkey in the New Testament is Jesus.
50:54
Speaker1: Did Mary ride a donkey on On the way to Bethlehem, maybe, but the Bible just doesn't record it.
51:01
Speaker1: And of course, ChatGBT and Jim and I both produced pictures for me of Joseph
51:07
Speaker1: leading a donkey with Mary on top of it.
51:11
Speaker1: But I will say this, kudos to Jim and I, however, who after producing that picture said,
51:17
Speaker1: The detail of Mary riding a donkey, though perhaps the most iconic image of
51:23
Speaker1: this journey, is actually a traditional addition and is not found in either Matthew or Luke.
51:29
Speaker1: However, there's a big however here.
51:32
Speaker1: However, since a literal illustration based only on the few verses in the Gospels
51:38
Speaker1: might appear too abstract or sparse,
51:42
Speaker1: I included this traditional element to make the scene immediately recognizable.
51:50
Speaker1: And you know what? Preachers for hundreds of years have done the exact same thing.
51:57
Speaker1: They, we, have added to the story to, at least in our minds,
52:03
Speaker1: make it better or to fill in the gaps.
52:06
Speaker1: And friends, that's dangerous.
52:09
Speaker1: The core is good enough. It's awesome enough. It's powerful enough.
52:14
Speaker1: In fact, it's more than good enough.
52:16
Speaker1: You don't have to add salt to a perfectly seasoned steak. It just makes it worse.
52:24
Speaker1: And we don't have to add our own embellishments in drama to the perfect story
52:30
Speaker1: because it just makes it worse.
52:33
Speaker1: You can't add to perfection.
52:36
Speaker1: Last one for today, and some people might be a little bummed out about this one.
52:40
Speaker1: Number five, the folded napkin that supposedly sent a message.
52:45
Speaker1: You remember John chapter 20.
52:48
Speaker1: It gives us this amazing peek into the empty tomb of Jesus.
52:53
Speaker1: And we'll read verse three, John 20, verse three, Peter and the other disciple
52:57
Speaker1: went out heading for the tomb.
52:59
Speaker1: The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and got to the tomb first.
53:06
Speaker1: Stooping down, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in.
53:11
Speaker1: Then following him, Simon Peter also came.
53:14
Speaker1: He entered the tomb and saw the linen cloths lying there.
53:18
Speaker1: The wrapping that had been on his head was not lying with the linen cloths,
53:23
Speaker1: but was folded up in a separate place by itself.
53:26
Speaker1: The other disciple who had reached the tomb first, then also went in, saw and believed.
53:33
Speaker1: Now, you might have heard that this folded cloth, sometimes called a napkin
53:38
Speaker1: because of the King James translation,
53:40
Speaker1: was a code that Jesus left indicating that he was coming back.
53:46
Speaker1: In a lot of modern sermons and social media posts regarding the resurrection of Jesus,
53:52
Speaker1: a lot of attention to detail is paid to this face cloth or napkin that was left
53:59
Speaker1: in the empty tomb and was neatly folded by itself.
54:02
Speaker1: The prevailing myth claims that in the first century Hebrew tradition,
54:07
Speaker1: A folded napkin at a dinner table carried a highly specific coded symbolic kind of meeting.
54:15
Speaker1: According to this, which is a myth, if a master wadded up his napkin and tossed
54:21
Speaker1: it onto the table, it meant he was finished eating, signaling his servant to clear the plates.
54:27
Speaker1: But if he folded it neatly and placed it beside his plate, the servant would
54:34
Speaker1: not dare touch the table because the folded napkin meant...
54:38
Speaker1: I am not finished. I'm coming back. Well, this preacher myth claims that Jesus,
54:44
Speaker1: in leaving a folded napkin, was
54:46
Speaker1: communicating a deliberate message to his disciples that he was returning.
54:52
Speaker1: Well, problem is, as near as I can tell, that concept is kind of a modern internet
54:57
Speaker1: fabrication that began circulating heavily in emails and online forums,
55:03
Speaker1: I don't know, 20, 25 years ago.
55:04
Speaker1: From my searching and the research of others,
55:08
Speaker1: there's pretty much no evidence in rabbinic literature or historical records
55:15
Speaker1: or archaeological findings or any of those kind of things of those kind of Jewish
55:20
Speaker1: dining customs in the first century.
55:23
Speaker1: In fact, in the first century, the Greeks and the Jews of that era predominantly
55:27
Speaker1: ate with their hands. They used bread to scoop food, and they didn't really
55:32
Speaker1: utilize modern table napkins.
55:36
Speaker1: Instead, they had ritual hand-washing before and after the meal.
55:40
Speaker1: The Greek word translated as napkin, like the King James Version and others, is sudarian.
55:47
Speaker1: And it really is not a napkin like we think of.
55:51
Speaker1: It's more of a sweat cloth or a face cloth or a face covering that was used
55:55
Speaker1: specifically for the dead and it was not a piece of tableware.
56:00
Speaker1: It's the same word used for the cloth that covered Lazarus' face in John 11.44
56:06
Speaker1: and the handkerchiefs that were touched by Paul in Acts 19.12.
56:12
Speaker1: The Jews didn't really use napkins like we do,
56:15
Speaker1: and projecting Western European or modern American dining etiquette onto ancient
56:21
Speaker1: Near Eastern burial customs is a bad idea, and it's just wrong.
56:27
Speaker1: Not only that, but it's kind of a weird message, too, regardless.
56:33
Speaker1: Look, even if it were true, because the disciples essentially got it,
56:37
Speaker1: again, were it true, after Jesus had returned. because they didn't go into the
56:43
Speaker1: tomb during the Friday night and Saturday while he was in the tomb.
56:48
Speaker1: The coded message, I'm returning to the table, would logically sort of imply
56:52
Speaker1: that Jesus intended to return to the tomb, which that kind of subverts the entire
56:58
Speaker1: Christian doctrine of a permanent victorious resurrection.
57:02
Speaker1: And beyond that, it's just silly. Now, that said, the sidarium,
57:06
Speaker1: the face cloth and the other burial cloths is indeed important in a lot of early
57:12
Speaker1: church fathers' writings.
57:14
Speaker1: Augustine talked about it, and he has a very interesting passage.
57:17
Speaker1: He's like, I'm sure there's meaning to this, but I don't have time to talk about it right now.
57:22
Speaker1: John Chrysostom saw it as a proof of Jesus' resurrection, but not like a coded message.
57:28
Speaker1: Just the fact that it was set there neatly meant that he had done it.
57:32
Speaker1: And beyond that, a couple of massive legends have arisen around that face cloth
57:39
Speaker1: and the other grave cloths in the tomb that persists to this day.
57:44
Speaker1: Of course, you've heard of the Shroud of Turin.
57:46
Speaker1: You may not have heard of the Mandillion or the image of Edessa,
57:50
Speaker1: which could be a face cloth that touched the face of Jesus, but also could be
57:55
Speaker1: this Sudarium we're talking about.
57:58
Speaker1: Now, those aren't exactly preacher myths, but I would say maybe the Mandillion
58:03
Speaker1: and the Shroud of Turin probably shouldn't form the basis of any sort of apologetic
58:08
Speaker1: about the risen Jesus...
58:10
Speaker1: Interesting as those things are, but maybe more on that one day.
58:14
Speaker1: Beyond these five, I have several more preacher myths, and I may turn that into
58:19
Speaker1: a standalone episode just like I did with the quotes on preaching last week.
58:23
Speaker1: But let me restate something important one more time in closing.
58:28
Speaker1: Lying, embellishing, exaggeration. Look, none of that adds to the gospel power.
58:33
Speaker1: We don't have to amp it up. We don't have to pretty it up. We don't have to
58:37
Speaker1: add things to it. we don't have to drama it up.
58:41
Speaker1: It doesn't add to it. At best, it adds a bit of fluff that might entertain the
58:47
Speaker1: immature and the lost, but more likely,
58:49
Speaker1: those kind of things will eventually catch up to us and cause not only a drop
58:53
Speaker1: in our own personal credibility, but a drop in the credibility of the message
58:57
Speaker1: we're talking about, the gospel of Jesus.
59:00
Speaker1: And the last thing any one of us should want to do is tarnish the beauty of
59:04
Speaker1: the gospel by adding to it or trying to over-season in it.
59:08
Speaker1: You don't improve perfection.
59:11
Speaker1: Well, that is all for episode number 14. Please do allow me to point you to
59:15
Speaker1: our website, Every Church Flourishing.
59:18
Speaker1: And as always, I want to end with a request to share the show with your friends
59:23
Speaker1: and neighbors and enemies and teammates and bosses and coworkers and anybody
59:28
Speaker1: you see on the street or in a cave you're exploring or while you're out swimming in the ocean.
59:33
Speaker1: Thanks for listening. Good day to you and God speak.