Latest / Finding New Waters / Rising from the Depths: Shauna Vick's Journey to Joy and Sobriety

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Rising from the Depths: Shauna Vick's Journey to Joy and Sobriety · Finding New Waters

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I know from the time I pick up a drink that I don't want it to
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stop. I always want one more.
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I was seeking that relief because I had lived for so many
0:07
decades in sobriety. So let me let me clarify.
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I was sober and working a program and then I was dry.
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OK, I wasn't working any sort of program.
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I was being very self reliant. And then I was in what I call
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prelapse mode, and a lot of old behaviors that aren't healthy
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behaviors for me were coming up. And then I took that drink and I
0:34
was in a relapse for about 2 1/2 years, and I could not
0:39
understand why I could not get sober again.
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I was hopeless. I couldn't.
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I just couldn't understand that I'd lived decades without
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alcohol. Why could I not get back?
1:15
Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Graham Durge and I'm
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the Founder and CEO here at New Waters Recovery.
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Thank you for joining us in our weekly podcast, Finding New
1:23
Waters. Today we've got a very special
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guest, Shauna Vick. Shauna is a woman in long term
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recovery from alcohol use disorder, workaholism, Wonder
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Woman syndrome, perfect wife life, and mother syndrome.
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Having decades of sobriety, Shawna experienced A devastating
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relapse and fought her way back to sobriety.
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After this experience, she decided to leave a successful,
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decades long career as a software sales executive to
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found Return to Joy, Recovery and Intervention so that she
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could spend the second-half of her life helping others navigate
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their way to recover from addiction and stay sober.
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Born and raised in Toronto, Canada, currently resides in
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North Carolina with her husband, daughter and two Labradors.
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Her favorite pastime is to spend early mornings by the fire pit
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to meditate and start the day. Nature, no matter how cold it
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is. After years and years of office
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life, constant cross country travel, her preferred place to
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be now is outside gardening, hiking, golfing, skiing,
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kayaking or fly fishing. Most people know that if you're
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looking for her, you better check outside first.
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Welcome to another episode of Finding New Waters.
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I am B Reeves. I'm the Director of Business
2:29
Development here in New Waters, sitting here with my colleague
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Justin McClendon, who is our Executive Director, and our
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friend and colleague Shawna Vick.
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I'm just going to read the first paragraph of her bio and then
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we'll go from there. Shawna.
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Excuse me, Shawna McKenna Vick is a woman in long term recovery
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from alcohol use disorder, workaholism, Wonder Woman
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syndrome, Pinterest, perfect wife life and mother syndrome.
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Welcome Shawna. And I want to start by just
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asking you, what is Wonder Woman syndrome?
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Well, that was quite a mouthful. I know that bio details quite a
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bit in that. But Wonder Woman syndrome and
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Pinterest, Perfect Wife Life and Mother syndrome, I feel, led me
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to my alcohol use disorder. I I'd had decades of sobriety B,
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and I found myself on that hamster wheel of unattainable
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societal pressures from Pinterest.
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I call it the Pinterest Perfect Wife Life and Mother Syndrome.
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Because you're on Pinterest. I was making, you know, flower
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arrangements with peeps, peeps with, you know, those peeps for
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Easter that went in one vase and then the other because it all
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had to appear correctly. But I was dying on the inside
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trying to keep up. I was a full time working mom.
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I traveled for work. I was a software sales
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executive. I was traveling every week.
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I wanted to make a magical life for my daughter, so I was also
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involved in all of her schooling and managing everything for her
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care. I was what I call a stay at home
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mom who worked full time time and traveled because I had this
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pressure that I put on myself that I in order to be the
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perfect wife and mother, I had to do all the things and I
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couldn't ask for help and my life imploded.
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I had gotten into recovery very early in my in my adulthood.
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And I I follow the 12 steps and AAI like to say A A gave me such
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a great life that it took me away from A A and I started to
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do everything on my own and started to really feel the
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societal pressure once I had my baby and I wanted to make, like
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I said, make life magical. So I became Wonder Woman or I
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thought I became Wonder Woman. Well no, I actually thought I
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was and I bought the costume. So I have the Cape, I have the
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bodice. I was a Wonder Woman for
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Halloween a few times, but it really felt like that, that I
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needed a superpower just to live.
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And when I was working full time and managing all of those
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things, I found that I was becoming more and more empty.
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My cup was very, very empty. And because I had had alcohol
5:23
use disorder early in my life, I knew that there was something
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out there that could help me to medicate myself.
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And I wasn't working a program. I wasn't taking care of myself.
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My mom was dying at the time, and I was so overwhelmed.
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An example of what I would do is I traveled every week for work
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and on Sundays I would do all of the meal prep for my family in
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individualized containers, would be in the fridge and freezer so
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that they didn't have to worry about cooking.
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When I was gone because the my level of mom guilt of not being
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there was so high. I had to take care of
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everything. And when I needed the relief, I
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turned back to alcohol. I turned back to alcohol to give
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me that much needed relief. And I see it.
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I see it today. So many women we need, we're
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we're working full time. We're managing the house or stay
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at home Moms who are super busy. Believe me, they work just as
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many hours as working moms working outside the home and
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looking for that drink at the end of the day or some at 3:00
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or some at 2:00 or 1:00 PM in the afternoon so that their
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shoulders can release and that feel up happens.
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It's. Funny, because keeping up with
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the Joneses is as old as time, and so is alcoholism.
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But now that recovery and sobriety are more socially
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acceptable, for lack of a better term, the pressure with the
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Pinterest, perfect life and social media exacerbates the
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keeping up with the Joneses. And it's almost like it keeps up
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with the accessibility to treatment and recovery.
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Does that make sense? Where mothers while it's more
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and more acceptable and there's less stigma it but the pressure
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is is more severe because of social media it seems like yes
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because I mean I'm I'm 46 I mean I'm my friends you know wives
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and my friends who are female or you know they all have kids and
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a lot of them are stay at home moms and I'm I know this is a
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thing you know. I think, if I heard you
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correctly, understand correctly that yes, we have destigmatized
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treatment and seeking help to a point, to a point, to a point.
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But it's very difficult to make that more mainstream when the
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pinking of alcohol has happened so much by the large, by big
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alcohol. OK, we have all these women's
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drinks or these mommy wine clubs organic together with your, with
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your girlfriends afterwards, bringing the kids over, having a
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bottle of wine per person, right.
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We're seeing a lot of that and it's so normalized.
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Drinking this huge amount of wine is normalized because it's
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we're we're telling moms these are, like I said, the
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unattainable expectations or societal expectations and that
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they need to have this wine to get through.
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It's no different than mother's little helper.
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If you think about it, it's no different than mother's little
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helper that we were giving to women in the 50s and 60s.
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And yet I was, I was speak. It's been really on my mind
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lately because I was speaking with a therapist earlier this
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week and she's seeing a lot of women for anxiety and
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depression. And I just said, well, do you
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find that they drink a lot? And she said, well, we know,
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yes, yes, we do. But we have to get to that
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point, to uncover and to help people realize that drinking a
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bottle of wine a night is actually not normal.
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Right, right. Right.
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If we look to what the CDC or the National Institute of Health
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states of what recommended drinks, and I'm going to get
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this wrong because, you know, my brain at my age doesn't hold
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statistics perfectly, but let's just call it that.
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It's 3 drinks. It's 3 servings.
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Yeah, 3 servings of alcohol a week.
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For women, a week, a week, a week, 3 servings.
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That's 1/4 ounce glass. Let's let's say that Justin and
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I are wrong and say it's 7 servings of alcohol a week.
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Let's let's air on the side of more.
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So 4 oz. Because I believe it's 4 oz.
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Pour that they're talking about. That's a small wine glass, not a
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goblet. 7 * a week that is. Might be a bottle and a half
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over the course of the week. I know it's actually not that
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high. Justin, I think you're right
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that it's about 3 glasses a week.
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Let's just say that was it. If we were to say to just an
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average group of ladies who meet a couple times a week to have
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wine and have the kids over and share dinner and they go through
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3 bottles for a group of however many, what if we were to ask
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them? Can you stick to the
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recommendations? The answer might be, well, why
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would we want to, right? We're not in any trouble.
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We're not getting into trouble. I'm not an alcoholic.
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No, and that is not what I'm saying, right?
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I'm not labeling anybody, but are we self?
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Are we normalizing it so much that women are self medicating
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to just get through, not realizing that drinking alcohol
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with anxiety is like pouring gasoline on fire?
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Yeah, absolutely. And depression for that matter.
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And depression. Yeah, 100%.
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And you know, it's interesting what's coming up for me as
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you're saying that is, you know, this idea of like the relief,
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right. Just like you said you
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experienced for yourself. And that's what I'm hearing,
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right? Is that like they don't think
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it's a bad thing or maybe it's a it's a time for them to
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socialize and things like that. But I do think there is that
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element of you know, they're engaging in that to seek relief
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from you know all the other things that are going on in in
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life, right. The the stress the the anxiety
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that trying to, you know, the keeping up with the Joneses.
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Joneses are there, as you say that the Pinterest perfect
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lifestyle and it's just it's not sustainable.
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It's not sustainable. It's not sustainable and I think
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it is true that like a person that is engaging in that level
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of, you know, just continued motion and trying to keep
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everything up and so forth, you do have to have relief.
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There has to be some kind of relief point there.
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But when someone starts to find that in alcohol or other drugs,
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I mean we also see this with, you know, people starting to
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abuse like benzodiazepines or things like that and not to
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knock like other medications, but even other, you know, being
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prescribed other, you know, depression or anxiety
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medications. Because the same thing, needing
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that relief from from all of this, this chaos that they're
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trying to manage when the reality is, is if we maybe could
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change the chaos or change how we're living life, then we could
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find relief in a different way, I think, right?
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Right, exactly. And that's, you know, I love
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what you said that the sustainable, it's not
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sustainable. You know, that was the point
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that I I couldn't quite get to. I couldn't sustain it and you
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are on on a hamster wheel, you're always going and then
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you're in perpetual motion. You've painted a great picture,
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Justin, in just of how we are as women and in life.
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It can be men too, you know, who need to just take the edge off
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when they get home from work. So I'm going to pour a couple
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belts of Scotch or bourbon or whatever and have a few beers
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while I'm cooking things. So this is not limited to women,
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but it's this normalization of overusing alcohol and then the
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prescription Enzos, right? How many people do I know that
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have been prescribed Xanax to help with their anxiety that is
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caused by this perpetual motion that they're feeding with
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drinking a lot and not sleeping? And so they need something to
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help with their anxiety because work pressures are getting to
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them. So if they take a Xanax during
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the day and then you know it helps to settle them through the
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day and then they're going home and pouring themselves the first
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glass of wine, it is just then you're in perpetual motion too
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of that cycle. So here you're trying to, you're
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trying to keep up with this the unrealistic expectations that
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society has put or that we've put on ourselves, right.
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That we've put on ourselves and you're trying to manage it, the
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feelings here. So.
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And when I'm coaching women, I often will say, you know, it's
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not don't think of it as that we're taking alcohol away.
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This is an additive process. What do we need to add back in?
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What do you need to add back into your life so you can manage
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those feelings, so you can find something different, so you can
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be present to your children. I mean that I think is the
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greatest heartbreak of all is that you have women parents who
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are together and it's you see it in neighborhoods and this is.
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I'm not judging. You just see it in
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neighborhoods. The parents all get together.
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They're all having some drinks. The kids are over here playing.
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What happened to. I actually love my kids and then
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want to be present to them and have the kids present with us so
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that they can see us watching them and were unable to because
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we're looking for the relief from all the other things that
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we're we're going through. Right.
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Yeah, absolutely. So how did you So you work with
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women? You've mentioned your own
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struggles with alcoholism and your recovery.
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How did you go from being a traveling software executive,
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super mom, Wonder Woman trying to have the Pinterest perfect
15:44
life, to now being an interventionist coach and sober
15:49
companion everything you do, How did you make that transition?
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Well, my life imploded as I said.
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And let me tell you, when I say in my bio, it'll say something
15:58
like a devastating relapse. I kid you not.
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It was a devastating relapse for me.
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I will the the I have no problem sharing my story.
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The I have no problem recovering out loud.
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I feel that I, you know, I'm grateful that I had another
16:17
chance at life. I will often say that you don't
16:20
have to hit rock bottom to seek helper, get recovery.
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That is not my story. I hit rock bottom and it was so
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bottom. So I realized that, you know, I
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had not realized. I know from the time I pick up a
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drink that I don't want it to stop.
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I always want one more. I was seeking that relief
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because I had lived for so many decades in sobriety.
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So let me let me clarify. I was sober and working a
16:49
program and then I was dry. OK, I wasn't working any sort of
16:54
program. I was being very self reliant.
16:57
And then I was in what I call prelapse mode and a lot of old
17:02
behaviors that aren't healthy behaviors for me were coming up.
17:09
And then I took that drink and I was in a relapse for about 2 1/2
17:13
years and I could not understand why I could not get sober again.
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I was hopeless. I couldn't.
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I just couldn't understand that I'd lived decades without
17:28
alcohol. Why could I not get back there?
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And the disease does progress. I mean, I I have been on other
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podcasts and, you know, I've heard other people talking about
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a continuum of alcohol use. You know, you have alcohol use,
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maybe the social or moderate drinker who can actually stick
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to the three drinks a week or doesn't even have to think about
17:47
sticking the three drinks a week because they can take it or
17:49
leave it and they don't. And then you have, you know, and
17:52
I'm not a clinician. So this is the Shawna alcohol
17:55
use continuum. It's not written anywhere.
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Alcohol use, misuse, abuse, dependence and addiction.
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Well, you know, as through my life, my disease progressed.
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Even though I wasn't drinking and I was an alcoholic early on,
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a very high bottom. I just walked into an A, a
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meeting and realized I need to change my relationship with
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alcohol. I was successful at work.
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I was a single woman. I just moved to the States from
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Canada and I was transferred there.
18:24
There was, I had no consequences that it happened, but I knew
18:28
that it alcohol was actually holding me back.
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And so I knew because I also come by it genetically.
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My mother was an alcoholic, my grandfather was an alcoholic.
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That I I just knew that I had a disordered relationship with
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alcohol. One was too many for me because
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Two's never enough. And so when I first entered the
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rooms of a, A or I first sought help, I was what I would call
18:57
very high bottom. With the disease progressing, I
19:00
was in and out of treatment. Well, let me tell you a bit
19:03
about how I started drinking when I I was on a business trip.
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So it's very safe. My husband wasn't there and I
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thought, oh, you know, I haven't drank in however many years.
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I'm who cares? I'm just going to have one.
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Well, of course I couldn't stop drinking that night and I
19:21
thought it was just a slip. I thought it was a one off, an
19:25
outlier, like oh, OK, so I never really did regain control of
19:31
being able to. But it felt good and I got that
19:34
relief and I felt different. I had been so uncomfortable in
19:38
my skin and in my life. I wanted to change the way I
19:42
felt. I knew alcohol could do that for
19:44
me. So it wasn't for about 6 or 8
19:49
weeks later, maybe 12 weeks later, until I picked up again.
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And then it was maybe 4 weeks. And then it was 3 weeks.
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Then it was 2 weeks, then it was regular.
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Now you have to remember that I hadn't drank.
20:03
Everyone knew me as sober. Shawna.
20:05
I was always the designated driver.
20:07
I never drank. I was always very open about
20:10
that. I was in recovery so I had to
20:13
drink in my closet in my car. I had to drink in secret, and we
20:18
know that secrets do keep us sick.
20:20
And I had to. I couldn't let people know I was
20:23
drinking. I mean, they eventually figured
20:25
it out, but I hit it as well as I could until I couldn't, and I
20:31
had to take a leave of absence from work.
20:33
And I I did a gradually escalating treatment.
20:38
I started with an IOP and it wasn't enough for me.
20:43
And I went away to an inpatient treatment and I took a long term
20:48
leave of absence because I knew I wanted to get my recovery
20:51
back. And I had some bumps through the
20:54
way, picked up a couple of times and ended up, you know, in that
20:58
course of 2, 1/2 years, I probably only drank about seven
21:01
months. But because when I picked up, I
21:04
went right down to that very dark rock bottom place and I had
21:08
to be separated from alcohol in order not to drink.
21:11
So I, you know, I went to treatment three times.
21:16
I lived in sober living for four months.
21:18
I did every IOP in the Raleigh area.
21:21
I would just moved around and I also had some sober time and I
21:25
went to 12 step program and I had some sponsors and I just, I
21:29
wouldn't give up. Although there were times that I
21:31
felt like giving up head. I was hopeless at times just
21:34
saying if I picked up again and I was down in that dark place,
21:37
you know, I tried to kill myself a couple of times, you know,
21:39
because I thought I can't keep doing this to my family.
21:43
There has to be like, something has to happen, and the miracle
21:50
happened. When the miracle happened, it
21:52
took what it took. You know, in retrospect, Justin,
21:54
you can appreciate this. The first time I went, I went
21:57
for 30 days. It was recommended that I stay
21:59
longer. I stayed 45 days.
22:01
We know that 30 days of treatment is an insurance, not a
22:07
scam, an insurance recommendation based on
22:09
insurance. My total time and inpatient
22:12
treatment upon reflection is 90 days.
22:16
How about that? Over the course of 2 1/2 years.
22:18
But it was 90 days and I haven't picked up a drink since.
22:22
After that last trip and I'm very active in my own program
22:26
and I took the time off. I took the time off from work.
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You asked how I made the change. Sorry little ADHD.
22:33
So I'm going little tangential here.
22:36
Took the time off from work, took a leave of absence.
22:38
I did resign from that position. We made a family decision that
22:41
I, you know, wasn't going to go back to to selling software.
22:48
Not because I couldn't do it, but because I wanted the
22:51
second-half of my life to mean something.
22:55
I get it. I sold software before I was
22:58
came to this field as well. Yeah, because I just wanted to
23:01
be able to give back. And I I I loved selling
23:06
software. I loved my life.
23:08
I loved everything. But we made some really
23:10
difficult decisions. I would no longer be able to do
23:13
that. Pinterest.
23:13
Perfect Life Life and Mother have that Pinterest Perfect
23:18
Life. We made some financial decisions
23:21
and sacrifices for me to be able to do that, to take the year
23:24
off. It did coincide with COVID.
23:26
I was able to homeschool my daughter for a year and I did
23:29
all of my certifications that year as well for coaching and
23:33
for sober transport and sober companion.
23:36
So I spent time transitioning by doing that in that year and then
23:42
more recently I became a certified interventionist.
23:45
So that's how I made the jump. It was, it was a risk and I'm
23:50
grateful that I did it because I'm able to see where I can help
23:54
people. And I, you know, I'll go to the
23:57
ends of the earth for my clients, do a lot of value added
24:00
services around around that. I said to someone last night, I
24:05
said I feel like what I provide to my clients is the Cliff Notes
24:09
version of how to get and stay sober because I tried it for so
24:13
long. For those 2 1/2 years I tried
24:15
everything sober. Companion.
24:17
I tried a coach, I tried treatment, I tried IOP, and they
24:22
all contributed to me getting well.
24:25
Oh, and therapist and psychiatrist.
24:27
So that's how I made. But it was.
24:29
I got to tell you, B, it was there are some sacrifice that
24:32
come with it, but I'm no longer driven by that need to keep up
24:40
and you know, being happy, joyous free, a simpler life has
24:48
has really benefited me. I spend time in my garden now,
24:51
out by my fire pit. It's one of the lines I use my
24:55
coach. How do you create a life that
24:57
you no longer need a vacation from?
24:59
How do you create a life that you know not longer need to get
25:02
relief from what needs to change?
25:08
I hear well, you know working in this field often you know,
25:11
especially when I'm out on the road doing more of the outreach
25:14
part and and also here, you know, I just sometimes over have
25:18
this sensation like I'm like I don't feel like I'm working and
25:22
it's a familiar feeling because I used to feel it five and a
25:25
half, six years ago because I wasn't and I was supposed to be
25:28
but I was like still asleep or you know telling somebody I was
25:31
somewhere else or whatever. But the feeling of like I'm not
25:35
working, but I'm actually at work working is great because
25:37
that means I love what I'm doing.
25:38
So absolutely. And it it is fun and we'd like
25:41
the vacation part. You know, they're limited in
25:43
this field, but you know, it's, you know, it's a it's a pull.
25:47
It's attractive to be able to help people as part of part of
25:51
our work, so. Absolutely, Yeah.
25:53
I mean it's it's great stuff. I mean to be able to to work in
25:58
a field where we get to provide value to people and help
26:00
hopefully, you know, guide people to living a a better, a
26:04
better life, a better way of living to where they can have
26:06
some of that relief incorporated into their day-to-day
26:10
existences. I mean I I can't think of
26:12
anything better to do for work to be honest with you.
26:15
A little bias, but. No, I I'm with you, Justin.
26:18
Just to see someone be able to have that interior joy or
26:26
delight with simpler things and to be able to take that deep
26:31
breath and pause. Maybe they've started a
26:36
mindfulness practice, maybe they're doing something.
26:39
And I was at a lunch today with actually your previous guest on
26:42
the podcast and I said to him, I said I used to function at such
26:48
a frenetic pace. I was, you know, and you
26:50
probably saw it at the beginning of the podcast because it was
26:52
amped up and ready to do it. And then, you know, I take deep
26:56
breath and they slow down. And I'm much more deliberate in
26:59
my speech, in my actions throughout the day.
27:02
And I credit that to my mindfulness practices, right?
27:05
I spend an hour and a half in prayer and meditation in the
27:08
morning to call me, to ground me, to center me so that I can
27:12
have the space and be present where I am.
27:15
Whereas before it was always what else do I need to do?
27:18
What do I need to do? And I got to get this done, got
27:19
to get this done, and it's this frenetic pace and I I don't live
27:23
like that anymore. And maybe that's how it feels
27:25
like you don't need, because you do need a vacation from that.
27:28
You cannot. It is unsustainable to stay at
27:31
that frenetic pace. Absolutely.
27:34
But on the meditation subject, you know, I, I tell people this
27:38
a lot is, you know, we still, we also need some kind of relief.
27:42
And the truth is I still like, I still like to feel good, but I
27:47
just don't have drugs and alcohol to make that happen
27:49
anymore. And so, you know, prayer and
27:52
meditation and, you know, a program of recovery.
27:54
But, you know, I meditate twice a day, every day and have for
27:57
almost the entire time I've been sober.
27:59
And, you know, it's like, and when I'm spiritually fit and
28:05
some days, even though I do the same thing every day, there are
28:07
certain, you know, sometimes I just wake up on the wrong side
28:09
of the bed. Sometimes there's something in
28:11
external force that's a little more powerful than I wanted to
28:13
be or whatever it is. But when I'm spiritually fit and
28:16
on the beam, as we say, all that, you know, Pinterest,
28:20
perfect life stuff is just means nothing to me.
28:22
But when I'm rattled, then I can start looking at my friends who
28:27
are like, you know, building a second home at the beach or
28:30
whatever, and start really judging my comparing my insides
28:34
to other people's outsides. But being spiritually fit, I'm
28:37
able to when I when I'm really on the beam and all that is just
28:40
completely meaningless to me. And Oscar Wilde said comparison
28:44
is the thief of joy, right? Love that.
28:47
Love that. That is exactly where I go to
28:50
be. As soon as I start to feel like
28:52
I'm losing my joy, it's usually because I'm comparing and so I'm
28:58
not settled inside and I what you said about I still do things
29:03
to make myself feel good. You know one of the things that
29:07
brings me so much good feeling is I go outside by my fire pit
29:15
that I built myself. I dug up in the ground, built
29:18
this fire pit in the coldest of mornings and I light my fire and
29:23
throughout the winter I will be out there in the middle of the
29:25
afternoon just for an hour. For whatever reason, it just
29:31
makes me feel good. Maybe because I'm Canadian and I
29:34
just love being outside in the cold with the warm fire.
29:38
But there's something about it and I I figured it was very
29:41
meditative for me, so it was like getting in some extra
29:43
meditation time. And I don't know if you've ever
29:46
seen the Muse headband for meditation.
29:49
It gives neurofeedback. And last week I was curious to
29:52
see if I was in a meditative state when I was out there
29:56
tending the fire. Because why do I feel so good
29:59
after it? I'm not talking to people.
30:02
I'm not whatever. I mean if people want to come
30:03
over, absolutely. But I feel so good.
30:06
One is the nature and it's scientifically proven that when
30:09
we sit in nature it does impact our OK Shawna Shawna, not the
30:16
the non Shauna clinician quoting stuff, but something about
30:19
hormones or something. Just it raises our level.
30:22
I maybe it's serotonin, but I wore the Muse headband while I
30:26
was just tending the fire. Let me know.
30:30
It's great for people with ADHD because you're always trying to
30:32
figure out how to set fire so the flames are building.
30:36
But it was I was in a pure meditative state, in a calm
30:38
state. And you hear the neurofeedback
30:40
of birds when you're in that state.
30:42
And that is why. That is one of the reasons that
30:45
I think I feel really good, but that's my #1 go to is get
30:50
outside. I have, you know, winter
30:52
vegetables growing in my garden now, just going out and seeing
30:55
how they're doing and yes, talking to them, it just makes
30:59
me feel good. But it's it's amazing.
31:01
B isn't it? When you're spiritually fit,
31:04
when you're not self medicating with alcohol and drugs, that
31:09
there are simpler things that can make you feel good.
31:12
Sitting with my daughter and playing a hand of cards, OK,
31:18
it's not like a big dopamine rash, but it is more of you know
31:23
that the balancing hormones, the the serotonin and just the good
31:28
feeling, the good feeling body chemicals.
31:32
Absolutely. And I couldn't have done that,
31:35
couldn't do that when I was drinking, right?
31:37
Right, exactly. Right, because all I was
31:39
thinking about is when can I get her to sleep so that I can have
31:42
more. Right, absolutely.
31:44
And what did I miss? Thank God it was only 2 1/2
31:46
years. For sure.
31:48
And we don't have to live like that anymore, right?
31:51
So coaching, if you don't mind if I shift gears with you, I'd
31:54
love to hear a little bit about so, as you mentioned, so
31:58
coaching sober companion, what else is?
32:03
It interventions. And interventions, Can you tell
32:04
us a little bit about, you know, what does that look like for
32:06
you? What kind of clients do you
32:08
serve? What is, what does that look?
32:10
What does the work look like for you?
32:12
What? Does the work look like for me?
32:13
Well, so we've been, I've been doing a lot more interventions
32:18
than the coaching. And that's just, you know, when
32:22
people are coming out of treatment, they are usually
32:26
doing some some sort of intensive outpatient.
32:31
They're seeing a therapist that might be in a 12 step program to
32:34
have an extra layer of support, not always necessary.
32:38
So the coaching, I don't do a lot of that type of coaching.
32:42
The recovery coaching or sober coaching that I do are more with
32:45
the Gray area drinkers. Just like I was saying, like say
32:49
the women who are using too much wine may not feel like they're
32:53
abusing it but want to change. So they're in this Gray area on
32:57
the continuum. So do some coaching with them.
32:59
Again, more of the additives. So what do you need to add back
33:02
in your life? What is, what is your ideal life
33:04
look like? How you know, how do you stay
33:07
present with your children and your family?
33:08
How do you manage your stress? And we look for those things.
33:11
So that's what the coaching, the other coaching that I've done a
33:14
lot of recently is for young adults or emerging adults,
33:20
college age youth, they're all the kids of my friends.
33:24
They say Shauna you got to give some coaching and so many
33:28
cohorts of children lost children, adults, young adults
33:33
lost so much during COVID. They lost their ability to do
33:37
even life skills planning, organizing, interacting and so I
33:41
do that life skills emerging adults.
33:44
So what do I do next or finding your purpose.
33:48
My, my niece and nephew who are college age, we're sharing with
33:52
the their family and friends over Christmas how lucky they
33:55
were that they had a life coach for an aunt because they could
33:58
call me and I do a lot of coaching with them and and they
34:01
were grateful for that. But that's why I'm invested in
34:05
that age group because I see it in my nieces and nephews.
34:09
So that's the coaching side and the companion.
34:12
I am a live in, sober companion usually for women who are
34:17
chronic relapsers like myself and the purpose is to really
34:23
help them to establish their life in recovery and wrap their
34:28
real life around their recovered life.
34:31
What happened to me is I came home and it was like mom's home,
34:36
Shawn is home OK, everything goes back to normal and I had to
34:40
wrap my recovery around my life doesn't that's that is
34:43
unsustainable. Recovery first, live next.
34:46
So I do. I've just launched for 2024 the
34:49
24, pardon me, the 72 hour Transition companion and it's
34:54
specific for women coming out of treatment who may have been a
34:58
couple of times and for that extremely vulnerable time.
35:03
That first 72 hours when you leave the bubble of treatment
35:07
and you're going home and when you leave when you leave your
35:10
house to go to treatment you've been in your disease and you're
35:13
my life is a blank show it's did you like that You didn't have to
35:19
beat me beat me beep. So it's a it's a really, you're
35:25
in a bad spot and you have to go home to that and the shame
35:28
associated with that. It can unravel a lot of the
35:32
great work that you did in treatment where you were
35:35
surrounded by staff therapists, other women that you processed
35:40
with out on the patio. You know if things you had a bad
35:43
phone call home, you might not have been able to see your
35:46
therapist, but you could process with people.
35:48
How do you go from that, all of that support to back where you
35:53
were last in your disease? I mean this, that 72 hours is so
35:59
crucial and I don't know what, I'll never know the answer to
36:02
this, but I got home from treatment at 10:30 in the
36:05
morning on a Wednesday and a guy took me to a meeting at noon.
36:09
And then some other friends I knew took me to a meeting that
36:11
night. And I'd if I hadn't gone to a
36:13
meeting that same day, I just don't know what would happen
36:16
because I I just it's so important for it to be a
36:20
continuum whether it's you know going from detox to res to IOP
36:24
or just from treatment to the rooms of recovery.
36:28
But I I think that is absolutely a great idea to have that 72
36:33
hour landing pad if you. Will it is.
36:36
It really is. And so I pick up, we pick up the
36:39
women at treatment, travel home with them and we're there for
36:42
that first 72 hours, The first trip to the grocery store.
36:45
Yeah, first meetings. What meeting are we going to
36:49
today? You don't have to walk in there
36:51
alone. That's huge.
36:52
It is huge. So it's been very well received
36:55
by the treatment centers and you know considering how much we
36:58
invest in treatment, it's a, it's a small investment because
37:02
hiring a sober companion for three weeks or four weeks is
37:05
daunting. It's as much as the cost of
37:07
treatment. And not saying I wouldn't do it
37:09
and I've done many engagements like that, but I really think
37:12
this 72 hours is so much more consumable and so much more
37:17
helpful. So I'm doing that.
37:18
And then of course the interventions is the
37:20
Invitational style, a gradually escalating style where the whole
37:24
family is involved. It's a six month contract and we
37:28
work with the family and the person of concern.
37:31
It's not an ambush style intervention.
37:33
It is not surprised the the person of concern is invited to
37:38
participate. They may or may not participate
37:40
but it's really about healing the family and the
37:42
intergenerational trauma so that everyone gets well and we can
37:46
pass recovery down to the next generation.
37:49
So the arise model for interventions and then the sober
37:53
companion, the 72 hour transition companion and you
37:57
know we provide transportation from just takes the burden off
38:03
the family to have to transport their loved one to treatment.
38:08
It really, and I mean the emotional burden, right, The
38:11
emotional burden. I don't want to go, I don't
38:13
really want to go. It just it eliminates all that
38:15
it's benefit to the family and then the coaching.
38:18
And so with that, with the 72 hour transition companion, I
38:22
also will meet with them weekly, buy Zoom if they're not local or
38:29
meet with them weekly for three months.
38:30
So that is just all part of it to you know, so that they always
38:34
have someone on their on their team because our care teams go
38:39
wide and deep. So to have an additional person,
38:43
oh, and I do the other thing I do is event companions.
38:47
So if someone has a wedding or a board meeting or whatever or a
38:51
sales meeting and then to travel, I'll go and become a bit
38:55
of a chameleon. Oh, I'm just a I've done a few
38:57
weddings. Oh yeah, I'm just, they'll just
38:59
say, oh, this old friend of mine from Raleigh, and I'm just there
39:02
with the with the mother of the bride or as a wedding guest,
39:06
additional wedding guest. So that's that's been really
39:08
fun. That's really smart.
39:10
I mean, that is really smart because I mean, how many times,
39:13
right? I mean, gosh, how many times
39:15
have I heard how fearful someone is about you?
39:19
You name it. Right.
39:19
Exactly. Those things.
39:20
Especially. Especially.
39:22
Right. Yeah, you got the champagne
39:24
toast. I mean, all the various
39:26
situations that people get just really, really afraid of how are
39:29
they going to navigate that, you know?
39:31
So, I mean, I think that's just ingenious, right, to to have
39:34
somebody there in your corner, you know, just Incognito, just
39:38
there for support and if you need them, I mean, that's that's
39:40
great. Yeah.
39:41
That's really good. And then I haven't done this but
39:44
executive companions for back to work.
39:48
You know how I position it is that I'm just a consultant and
39:52
they just say they're consultant and because B, you could do that
39:56
too. We've been in business for so
39:57
many years, we can easily, you know, fake our way through or
40:01
fit right in. And we're, they just hired me
40:04
for a project and it doesn't have to be, but it's someone
40:06
there who you can process with through the day, just just
40:10
having someone in your corner. You don't have to do anything,
40:13
you just have someone there in your corner in the most
40:15
stressful times. Because I mean for a lot of
40:18
people I mean that is the most stressful part of trying to you
40:21
know figure out how you're going to navigate the new life and
40:24
recovery is those type of things right.
40:26
How I'm going to deal with my family.
40:27
How am I going to do these events, how am I going to go
40:29
back to work, you know all of those things.
40:31
So I mean I just feel like that I can see where that would be
40:34
extremely helpful for a lot of people.
40:37
So that's great. I'm really glad that you're.
40:38
Doing the show, that's. Great.
40:39
And I'm loving it too. You know, like I, there's not a
40:42
lot of vacation time because even when we're on vacation,
40:45
we're getting calls. You know, there was a survey on
40:47
LinkedIn that said will you take calls from clients over the
40:50
holidays? I'm like, Oh my gosh, like it's
40:53
the most difficult time for clients.
40:55
Of course I will. And my family is so grateful
40:58
that I'm sober that they are like, go, go take calls or if a
41:02
sponsee calls. I sponsor women in the a, a
41:05
program, sponsee calls. Right At dinner time, the whole
41:07
family goes, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
41:10
You know no one has ever said anything about that because they
41:12
know in order to keep it I have to give it away.
41:15
But I I called my company. Return to joy recovery, Return
41:18
to joy. And the reason for that is that
41:22
I had lost my joy when I was seeking that Pinterest perfect
41:25
life. And I had always been known as
41:27
happy shiny Shawna. And I didn't feel it.
41:30
I could still fake it to a point, but I didn't feel it
41:34
inside. And that's the difference
41:36
between happiness and joy. And that just joy for a living.
41:39
And I spent time. I bought my company website a
41:44
year before I relapsed because I knew I wanted to eventually go
41:47
into recovery coaching and into this.
41:50
And so I bought Return to Joy Recovery before I ever picked up
41:54
my first drink. And isn't that cool?
41:57
Because I really wanted to return to Joy.
41:59
That was when I was in that prelapse mode.
42:01
I knew that I wasn't joyful. I didn't have that piece in my
42:05
heart. And so I that's why I named it.
42:08
To Return to Joy. So I can help people navigate
42:10
their path back to to a joy filled life.
42:14
I love that. I love that.
42:17
And we'll also make sure to put all of your contact information,
42:20
social media handles, all that in the in the show notes so that
42:23
everybody can access that as well.
42:25
I try to stay current. On content with social media,
42:28
but I have a 15 year old who I say needs to stay off her phone
42:32
and so I try to model that and then I find that I have to be on
42:35
it, you know, to stay relevant and stuff.
42:37
But I I do have social media handles.
42:40
I have a website and and I always will take any call.
42:44
That's the other thing, you know, people get are afraid to
42:48
call an interventionist because they're afraid that it's going
42:52
to be this big deal we have. Hijacked that.
42:56
Term in behavioral health, that that's what it is.
43:00
And really, we intervene with each other on a daily basis.
43:04
We might ask someone to eat healthier, a loved one to eat
43:07
healthier. That's an intervention for
43:09
intervening. And I don't want everyone,
43:11
anyone to ever be afraid to pick up the phone just to chat.
43:15
Like call me if you think you have a problem, if you think you
43:19
may have a disorder relationship.
43:21
It's a judgment free, you know, call judgment free. 30 minutes.
43:26
Let's chat about it. I don't want anyone to feel
43:28
alone like they have no one to call.
43:30
What you just said, reminded. Me of the two best pieces of
43:33
advice I got when I started working in this field #1 Don't
43:36
let My Job be my program of recovery.
43:38
They can complement each other but they are separate and the
43:41
number two is always answer the phone because I get so much joy
43:44
out of getting a call with when there's there's no way this
43:48
person is going to make sense for our program.
43:50
But giving them sharing a contact and give them your
43:53
number, giving them whoever's number it is, it's just a great
43:56
feeling to be able to at least help even if it's not going to
43:58
be like they're coming here. But that, I mean, that's what so
44:02
much of this job is about, is literally sharing phone numbers
44:05
with each other, right? Exactly.
44:06
And we do it. We do it joyfully.
44:08
It mean might mean like someone said to me, Sean, I can.
44:10
I was gonna call you up. I was gonna pass an intervention
44:13
over to you. You know that's from a business
44:15
perspective you don't necessarily want to change over.
44:18
But he's like, it wasn't a fit for me.
44:20
I think it would be a better fit for you.
44:21
And I do the same thing. I had someone call me and I said
44:24
I'm so sorry. This is way out of my scope.
44:27
I'm going to refer it to someone else because we always want
44:30
people to have the right and we know how to navigate through
44:33
exactly, even if you don't. Need an intervention?
44:35
You know you want to go to treatment, but you don't know
44:37
where you want to go because we're the ones who are doing the
44:40
research, right? We're the ones who know us.
44:43
I mean, I just. Always want to encourage them to
44:45
call us instead of trying to do their own research, because that
44:48
can end in a total disaster, total disaster.
44:51
You know, I was just having the same.
44:52
Conversation with someone last night at the the dinner in that
44:57
you know the treatment community, I guess if we want to
44:59
call it that like nationally is is huge, right.
45:02
I mean there's so many treatment centers, there's so many people
45:04
involved in this work. But the The funny thing is that
45:07
like it is still so small. Everybody knows everybody.
45:11
Everybody knows what each each program and each person is doing
45:14
and what the specializations are.
45:16
And that just feels so good to me that as as we're saying,
45:19
right, you get those phone calls and you also know who's doing
45:23
good work and who's not doing good work and just being able to
45:27
get that person connected to where they need to go so that
45:29
they have a fighting chance at having some change happen.
45:32
I mean it's just I I can't think of anything else that I would
45:35
rather be be doing for sure. I was talking.
45:38
To a personal friend, this. Morning.
45:40
I've known my for my entire life and I he's got a situation with
45:44
a friend and Co worker who who needs help and he keeps just
45:48
profusely thanking me and saying I'm like man, you have no idea
45:52
this, this helps me. If nothing else, this helps me
45:55
stay sober one more day And it's just, I mean it's I hate to say
45:58
it's fun but it kind of is because it feels so good just to
46:01
be doing anything we can to to help people.
46:04
Definitely. Definitely.
46:06
And I you know I have a call to. Action.
46:07
If there's any women out there that are drinking a bottle of
46:11
wine a night, just give me a call.
46:13
Doesn't mean we're going to have you to stop.
46:15
I'm just curious. I'm just curious, you know, if
46:19
you're drinking a bottle of wine a night, what are you not doing?
46:22
What are you missing? Let's see if there's something
46:24
we can help you pull back in. Because I'm just going to say
46:28
it, and this is not just a bottle of wine a night.
46:31
It's too much to be drinking. It's too much.
46:34
And if you're. Drinking and and I'll throw this
46:36
out there because I think there's a big misconception and
46:40
not to start this whole conversation back up again, but
46:42
as you mentioned, I think social media, media, I mean we have a
46:46
lot of shows out there now not to to kind of call anything out,
46:49
but that really glamorizes drinking alcohol use.
46:53
I mean it's just very mainstream.
46:54
I mean you see it everywhere and a bottle of wine a day, you are
47:00
going to experience withdrawal symptoms from that.
47:02
You really are like you you're going to need some medical
47:04
assistance to stop discontinue that drinking.
47:07
And I think a lot of people don't know that.
47:10
They don't realize that. They just see it as you know,
47:12
this is, this is normal. This has been normalized.
47:15
This is a routine for me. It's not a problem.
47:17
I haven't had a DUI blah blah blah blah blah.
47:19
But the reality is it's like when it reaches that volume and
47:22
you're doing it consistently, it is a medical problem.
47:25
It is a medical problem. And people joke around about
47:28
having the shakes in the morning.
47:29
They joke around about having the shakes in the morning.
47:32
Right. Oh, it's no big deal.
47:33
I just drank too much last night.
47:35
It actually is a big deal. Yeah, it absolutely.
47:38
And the. The normalization factor and and
47:41
and you know, I I knew that I'd partied pretty hard but I but,
47:45
but the people I grew up around and went to school with, it was
47:49
it was normal the way we behaved.
47:52
Remember one time I was talking to one of my best friends on a
47:56
Saturday after I've been at a rehearsal dinner for a wedding
47:58
the night before and he was asking me how it was.
48:00
I was like, yeah, standard. I drank 25 vodka sodas.
48:03
Just sort of kidding, but realized that I was completely
48:05
serious. And then, you know, it's funny.
48:07
He's actually now sober now for a few years too.
48:10
It's amazing. But we still joke about the 25
48:12
vodka soda thing and how we thought it was normal because it
48:15
was for us. But that is so far from normal.
48:17
I mean, that is so far from normal, right?
48:20
And I. Justin, I don't think we hear
48:22
that enough too about the withdrawal and how difficult it
48:27
is, especially if you're also taking prescribed Xanax, right.
48:32
You're taking a prescription drug from which you need
48:34
actually to medically withdraw from, which is why I'm grateful,
48:38
you know, for new waters because I've referred a few clients here
48:41
to have such a phenomenal place here in Raleigh.
48:45
And even if you don't live in Raleigh to come here because of
48:47
the way you address the mental health aspects, you do the
48:51
assessments, the mental health assessment, the alcohol
48:54
assessment, you can really, it's a really great launching pad.
48:58
It's a really great launching pad.
49:00
And I know it's, you know, but I I do fear for, that's why I'm
49:06
saying if you're drinking a bottle of wine and I call me,
49:08
but don't stop, don't stop drinking or I'm not going to
49:13
have you stop. But just call me, Just call me.
49:16
Let's just talk about it so. Again, we'll put all your stuff
49:20
in the show notes, but since you're giving that offer to
49:22
people, do you want to share your number now on the podcast?
49:25
Sure, it's. 919-867-1505, And that's a number where you can
49:33
talk or text and yeah, call me AI have no problem.
49:37
It's a Google Voice number so that you know well.
49:42
Shawna, it's you. I'm so happy for all that you're
49:46
doing because when I first met you, you were doing more just
49:49
the coaching. But now to see that you're doing
49:51
interventions and just you just, it's amazing.
49:53
I'm really happy to see what you're doing and we love working
49:55
with you. So thank you so much for being
49:57
here today. Yes, thank you.
49:58
Thank you. You know I.
49:59
Usually would say this. At the beginning.
50:01
But I am. I'm really honored to be here
50:04
and to be part. I've loved listening to all of
50:07
your podcasts and all of your guests and how just transparent
50:11
and real you address the issues. So thank you.
50:15
Thank you. And Justin, it's great.
50:17
I've known you for so many years that it is.
50:20
It's great to be able to sit here and share this experience
50:23
with you. Thank you.
50:25
It really warms my to be sitting here with you, Shauna, and
50:29
having this conversation. I mean, you do not.
50:31
Can we tell them? Can we tell?
50:33
Them you could tell yes. Is that OK?
50:34
Go. For it so.
50:36
When I relapsed, my first therapist was Justin and I I do
50:42
say that, but Justin saved my life because I was hopeless and
50:46
I needed a higher level of care than I was getting.
50:50
And he introduced me to the treatment center where I did go.
50:55
And so I He facilitated me getting well, and he stuck with
51:03
me. And not only that, I was sharing
51:05
this with someone that hit you were so unconditional in your
51:12
regard or your support for me. I never felt alienated.
51:16
I never felt like I'd yes, I knew I'd made a mistake.
51:19
I was self flagellating enough. You didn't have to do it for me.
51:23
But it was that unconditional therapeutic love in a therapist
51:29
way, that unconditional positive regard, say, that allowed me to
51:35
have the space to seek getting well as opposed to continuously
51:39
bashing myself. You just, I knew I would never
51:43
give up, but you also never gave up on me.
51:46
And that's why I do for my clients.
51:48
I will never give up on them if they continue to like crying
51:55
after getting well, trying to get well.
51:57
If you're not going to, I will work as hard as you.
51:59
I will never give up. And that's what I really felt
52:01
from you, Justin. I You played a big part in my
52:06
sobriety and recovery. I appreciate it.
52:08
I was. Grateful to be a part of it and
52:10
Shawna. I could not be any more proud of
52:12
you. Thanks.
52:14
It is nice to still. Hear that.
52:16
Thank you for Shawn of you that's so proud.
52:18
Yeah. Thanks.
52:19
Shawna, thank you. Thank you.
52:21
Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen.
52:22
Yeah. Great.
52:23
Awesome. Thank you.