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What is Eugene De Kock likely to know? · Drive with John Perlman

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  Speaker 1: You're with John Perlman on 702. 702 Drive. Let's focus
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  Speaker 1: on what I think was a remarkable and perhaps very
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  Speaker 1: significant testimony yesterday by former commander of Flakplas, Eugene de Kock.
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  Speaker 1: And he was giving evidence at the Gampepe Commission. Eugene
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  Speaker 1: de Kock. substantial prison time for his role in apartheid
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  Speaker 1: era death squads. But appearing before the Kampepe Commission, he
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  Speaker 1: said that he would have been able, had he been asked,
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  Speaker 1: had anyone bothered to ask him to give significant information
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  Speaker 1: in regard to the generals in command, the generals who
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  Speaker 1: instructed him to do what he did, and the politicians
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  Speaker 1: who in turn had given those generals their instructions. So,
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  Speaker 1: What is the significance of what he's saying and what
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  Speaker 1: ought to happen next? Jacques Poe is a journalist who
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  Speaker 1: in the 80s uncovered much of what was going on,
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  Speaker 1: wrote about this in substantial detail and more recently directed
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  Speaker 1: a documentary about, Eugene de Kock called, prime evil. Jacques Poe,
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  Speaker 1: welcome and thanks very much for your time. Eugene de
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  Speaker 1: Kock says he has a lot to say and would
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  Speaker 1: have said it if he'd have been asked. What do
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  Speaker 1: you make of his assertion that nobody seemed to be interested?
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  Speaker 1: Good afternoon.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, John. Yes, you know, he was found guilty of
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  Speaker 2: murder and sentenced to 212 years and a few life
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  Speaker 2: sentences in October 1996. And he then went on to
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  Speaker 2: testify before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Now, after the TRC,
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  Speaker 2: we all waited for the big prosecutions to start. And
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  Speaker 2: I'm talking about, you know, Adrian Flock and Johan van
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  Speaker 2: der Merwe and Barsi Smit and Magnus Malan and all
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  Speaker 2: these guys. Nothing happened. And we wrote in the early 2000s,
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  Speaker 2: we all wrote about the lack of prosecutions. What's happened
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  Speaker 2: to the promise of the new government that they were
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  Speaker 2: going to charge those security operatives who did not get amnesty?
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  Speaker 2: But nothing happened. And it's true what Eugene de Kock
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  Speaker 2: is saying is, you know, I don't know how many
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  Speaker 2: politicians Eugene de Kock could have implicated, but he certainly
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  Speaker 2: could have implicated the generals. Klappis Engelbrecht, Basie Smit, Johan
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  Speaker 2: van der Merwe, all these people who then would have
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  Speaker 2: had to say where they got their clearance or their
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  Speaker 2: approval from, which obviously came from the politicians. But nothing
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  Speaker 2: ever happened. Those prosecutions never took place. Only one politician.
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  Speaker 2: has ever been convicted of an apartheid-era crime, and that
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  Speaker 2: was Adriaan Floch, who was in 2007 found guilty of
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  Speaker 2: attempting to murder Frank Shikani. Now, that whole trial was
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  Speaker 2: a complete sham because it was a plea agreement. between
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  Speaker 2: Johan van der Merwe, who was Commissioner of Police, Adrian
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  Speaker 2: Flock and the NPA. With other words, there was no trial.
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  Speaker 2: Adrian Flock never had to say or never had to
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  Speaker 2: explain where his approval came from or who instructed him
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  Speaker 2: to assassinate Frank Shikani. Neither did Johan van der Merwe.
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  Speaker 2: So it is... Absolutely, absolutely shocking. And we need answers
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  Speaker 2: about why those prosecutions never happened. At the time, the
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  Speaker 2: head of a unit within the NPA that was set
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  Speaker 2: up to do these prosecutions was headed by a man
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  Speaker 2: called advocate Anton Ackermann, SC. He was the man who
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  Speaker 2: prosecuted Eugene de Kock, prosecuted Ferdie Barnard, prosecuted Wouter Besson.
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  Speaker 2: He is a man of incredible integrity. I know him personally.
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  Speaker 2: And he would absolutely have gone for those generals and
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  Speaker 2: those politicians. But something kept him back. And that's the
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  Speaker 2: answer we're seeking at the moment. Why did it happen? Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And I mean, on the subject of Anton Ackermann, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: he was singled out. It seems to me, or not
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  Speaker 1: singled out, but certainly singled. He occupied a substantial amount
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  Speaker 1: of Eugene de Kock's testimony in regard to somebody who
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  Speaker 1: failed to do what he should. You're suggesting that if
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  Speaker 1: he had done so, he would have had to fly
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  Speaker 1: in the face of an incredibly strong wind. Where was
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  Speaker 1: that wind coming from?
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  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I spoke to Anton Akerman when he
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  Speaker 2: was still headed to unit in the NPO. I spoke
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  Speaker 2: to him various times about prosecutions. And we knew, and
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  Speaker 2: he told me, that there were huge resistance from the
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  Speaker 2: new government, from the ANC government, because they were scared
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  Speaker 2: that Ackermann was also, that the NPA was also going
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  Speaker 2: to charge people within the ANC that never received amnesty.
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  Speaker 2: So nothing ever happened. There were not prosecutions done. On
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  Speaker 2: either side, it just simply died down. And it's quite
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  Speaker 2: incredible that the former Minister of Justice, former President Thabo Mbeki,
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  Speaker 2: they all came and they sat there as though they
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  Speaker 2: are completely innocent, as though they played no role in this.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. We're going to have to leave
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  Speaker 1: it there with Jacques Pau, author, journalist who uncovered much
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  Speaker 1: of what is being discussed, certainly in the 1980s. Him
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  Speaker 1: and the rest of the Freie Wirklichkeit team are really
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  Speaker 1: doing some extraordinary digging and finding things that really contributed
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  Speaker 1: to a much wider conversation about what was going on.
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  Speaker 1: We'll continue looking at this story, perhaps get Jacques back
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  Speaker 1: for a longer chat. 27 minutes past five.