Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 692: How I Wrote Erin Brockovich with Susannah Grant

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IFH 692: How I Wrote Erin Brockovich with Susannah Grant · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to IFAH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Indie
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Film Hustle Podcast, Episode number six ninety two. Life is full of challenges.
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How you handle these challenges It's what builds character. Never be afraid to
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be who you are. Aaron Brockovich broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood.
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It's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and
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thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's
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your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie
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Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
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sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur. How to turn your independent film into
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The book is available in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook. If
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you want to order it, just head over to www dot film bizbook dot
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com. That's film Bizbook dot com. Well, guys, today on the
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show, we have Academy Award nominee Susannah Grant and Susanna wrote the Oscar winning
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film Aaron Brockovich, as well as Twenty eight Days with Sandra Bullock, in
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Her Shoes with Cameron Diaz, Catch and Release with Jennifer Gardner, Charlotte's Webb,
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The Soloist with Robert Downey and Jamie Fox, and So so so much
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more. Susanna and I have a deep sit down conversation about her process,
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her journey as a screenwriter, and advice that she gives to up and coming
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screenwriters trying to break into the business today. So, without any further ado,
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let's dive in. I'd like to welcome to the show, Susannah Grant.
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How you doing, Susanna, I'm great, Alex, how are you.
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I'm doing very good. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
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I've been a fan of your work from twenty eight days too in her
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shoes. I love romantic comedies of course, Aaron Brockovich and even polcahannas too
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when I was good well in the ninth I have some quibbles, I'm sure
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you do. I'm sure you do. But even but you were coming in
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pocahonas, you were coming in at that wave of the nineties. Yeah,
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eight late eighties, early n The Little Mermaid, Lion King a Lad and
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it was just they do printing money, Yeah, they were. They were
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doing really beautiful work and bringing back the movie musical which was fantastic and um
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so I was really happy to be a part of it. And you know,
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it's not how it's not how we would make a story about Native Americans
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today, which shows you that we've Oh, yeah, there have been some
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advances. Um, there has. But I learned a ton. I learned
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a ton. I have not gone back into animation because animation is not covered
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by the guild. So, um, oh it isn't. I don't know,
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it's not. It's actually covered by a different union oddly, which has
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to do with the history of animation. But um, no writing for writing
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for so you know, I look at Linda Wolverton, who wrote these huge
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Disney movies, and the amount of money she has not received for her work
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that she would have been a Union project anyway, that's another story. But
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I have not worked in animation since, largely because of that. But um,
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but it's a really rigorous place to start because the tradition of animation is
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that the story artists tell the story storyboard artists. That was how it was
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done early in the day at Disney, and Howard Ashman and Alan Menkin brought
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in writers and that was the beginning of this sort of renaissance that they that
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they brought in. So we were writers. I had two partners on that
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M. Karl Binder and Philip Zevnik, and but there were also story artists
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who considered themselves writers, so you would there was a lot of tension in
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it, which was you know, good and bad, but there was.
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It was incredibly rigorous. You know, there's no scene in that movie that
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was written any fewer than thirty thirty five times. It was just over and
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over and over for your first gig. It's really good. It's a it's
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like a boot camp, you know. And how does I mean seriously?
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Because I was gonna ask you about Polkahan, But since we started there while
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and we just keep going. Because I have friends who are animators. I've
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been inside the Disney studios. I see how they work, and he told
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me all about the process and the directors and how they work with it the
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storyboard artist. But it must be frustrating as a writer to have storyboard art
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basically storyboard artist dictating story as a writer. And it must have been just
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been this really interesting thing to deal with as a as a young writer as
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well. Yeah. Well, and I haven't been there in the sort of
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post Pixar universe, and you know, I don't know how they're doing it
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now. And at the time you know, the animation tradition is very profound
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and sacred to people, so you don't want to dishonor that I was.
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I was still in film school, you know when I got that job.
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So you get the job, you know. I my first year of film
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school, I won the Nickel Fellowship, which is a fellowship that the academy
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gives and that just gives your work more visibility. And then you start meeting
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folks. And I did, and I had I was in school. I
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was still in school. I had a second year of film school. So
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I would get offered jobs that just smelled like really bad jobs that would go
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nowhere. And I had the luxury of being able to say no because I
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was in film I was in school, you know, so it had to
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be appealing enough to pull me away from getting my masters, which I want
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to get. And then eventually, you know, after I said no to
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a few things from Disney Animation, I learned quickly that's saying no doesn't mean
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they'll never ask you again. It just means they'll offer you something better.
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So eventually they came to I mean, it came to me with some ideas
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like we don't even know what this is it's just a word, you know,
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whales, just whales. And I thought, no, I don't that
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that movie is never ever getting me. By the way, all the things
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they pitched me before this, I think there were about five of them,
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none have gotten made. So really, I actually had a wonderful teacher in
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film school named Jerry Cass and I would sort of float it by him and
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he'd go, now, don't do it, don't do it. And then
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they called one day and said this one has a release date and I thought,
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Matt, all right, all right, knock out of hild school early
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for something, the whole poka, Yeah, the whole polkahonest thing. I
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think it works. Yeah, I think we have a release date. It's
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gonna go. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, I was new,
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and I was green, and I was humble, and I had two other
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writers who were great pals and great writers, and uh, you know,
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anytime it gets rough, for god's sake, you're doing a Disney animated movie,
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and you're you know, I was. I was never unaware of how
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fortunate I was, so even on the difficult days, I was happy to
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be there. Yeah, it's it's it's a magical place. I've been in
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and many times of Disney animation, and it is it's a beautiful, wonderful
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and I've heard stories. I remember Tangled was in development for ten years.
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Everything on it I saw. I saw that the art was a completely different
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from what we saw a year before release. Stripped it all start again.
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And they did that with every single movie since No White Hard. Oh they
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are not precious. And the great thing is when you're working on one of
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them. You know, when we were working on Pocahontas, Lion King was
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in its finishing stages, so we had the advantage of being adjacent to that
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work, which was tremendous. And then Hunchback was behind us, so we
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were aware of that as well, and so um, you know, you
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had a part of this continuum. Um. It was a magical time.
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It wasn't that that that those that five to ten year window of Disney animation
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was pretty remarkable. It's hard for people to understand because it was pretty much
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dead in the water. Yes, it was until a Little Mermaid showed up,
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and then we're like, oh, okay, until Alan Menken and Howard
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Ashman came in and said we can Katzenberg and Katzenberg came in and started doing
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some stuff, and there was some professional meeting. Was a meeting with Jeffrey
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I think it was at seven thirty in the morning on Mother's Day Sunday.
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Of course, of course there was some rigor to that, to say the
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least. So so your first writing gig was out of school, was straight
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into Disney Studios working with it. We'll be right back after a word from
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our sponsor, and now back to the show. So after you've done with
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that whole process, you then started working on television. You went into Party
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five, which you and I really hadn't had a planned to work in television,
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you know. I my sort of house of worship growing up, as
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it was, was a movie movie theater. So that felt like the sort
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of form of American storytelling I was dying to be a part of and contribute
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to. And that was a conversation I wanted to be a part of.
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But I got this pilot shown to me that was made by Chris Kaiser and
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Amy Lettmann called Party of Five, and it was beautiful and it felt like
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my sensibility and they were the best people in the world. And I didn't,
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you know, And so I went and did that for a bit.
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Yeah, you did that for a few years. So let me ask you
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what were some of the biggest lessons working in that writer's room. And and
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really kind of because it's one thing is being a feature writer and another one's
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being a TV writer. It's it's a grind. It's a daily grind with
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television as opposed to feature screenwriting, which is take your time. You can
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think it's also a daily grind. It is no, no, it is
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no. I was lonely or daily grind, right, But a lot of
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times if you're doing a spec or something, you could you could be on
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that spec for five years. This is like there's a deadline and you gotta
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go, you gotta go. There is Yeah, what you learn. Um,
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it's funny when I look back at it, I really think of the
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lessons I learned less being about craft and um being more about how do you
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how do you choose to live this writer's life. That was a remarkably wonderful
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group of people who were kind to each other and supportive of each other and
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funny and you could you could share your idiocy with them and they would only
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love you more. You know. Is exactly the kind of environment you want
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for a beautiful collaborative workplace. And it's sort of set in my head that
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as a bar, and I've really actually been quite fortunate and that I've had
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very few professional collaborations that have not felt like that. I mean, I've
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had them, you know, and you sort of work through them as quickly
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as possible. But but that was the biggest lesson there that for me,
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not for everyone, there are people who thrive in chaos and conflict and their
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best work comes out of it. For me, that is the environment that
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brings out my best work. So that was one lesson and the other was
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you just keep working on it till it's good enough, you know, you
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just keep working on it till it's good enough. And I would put the
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scenes up on my wall that as you sort of outlined it together, and
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I would have a bar for myself. I wouldn't put a red check mark
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on it saying it was done until I had surprised myself in the scene and
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turned it into something that I hadn't anticipated, or found something within it that
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I hadn't anticipated would be there from the outline, you know, So it
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just I found I guess a bar that made the work feel alive and interesting
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as opposed to flat and dead. You know the scene where X happens,
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Well, if it's the scene where X happens, how can you make that
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alive? How can you surprise yourself? How can you surprise your viewer?
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How can you find an element of it that you didn't know was going to
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be there? Going in? You know, which is the most exciting stuff
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to watch where humanity sort of peeks out unexpectedly. So you mentioned that,
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you know, you've obviously had some not so hormone collaborations. I think in
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the business in general, we all have that. We all have to deal
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with that at one point or another. Do you have any advice on how
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to walk that path a bit? And depending on collaborators and who you're working
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with, because we're talking about there's the difference between a PA's collaborating with a
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director and a writer collaborating with a director or an executive producer on the show
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things like that, how do you deal at that higher level when you're with
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collaborators, Boy, it really all depends on who that collaborator is and what
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their particular approach to work and a work environment is. I've had ones where
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I've worked with a director where it felt like, how to say it delicately,
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ego was a big, big, big presence in the room at the
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and and then just by sort of sitting there, it felt like there were
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three people in the room at the beginning, me, the director or in
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the ego. But if you just sit there calmly and say and just don't
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don't I don't dance with it, you know, don't don't dance with it,
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don't engage it, don't fight it. Just it. If if the
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creative vision matches gradually, sometimes that will just ease its way out of the
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room, you know. But sometimes it won't. Sometimes it's just like sometimes
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you are working with a chaos monster and you will never see eye to eye.
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You know. There are a couple of projects where I look back on
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it and I realized I was holding onto my job so hard that I lost
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grip of the of the film, you know. And some you know,
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there's one movie I look back on and I think, oh, I should
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have walked. Not for me, but maybe maybe if I had walked the
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director, this is an original too, Like I would never walk off an
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original, but maybe if I had walked, I mean, there is always
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going to win, right, Maybe if I've walked, they would have found
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something that wasn't what I wanted it to be, but was better than what
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it ended up being, which was sort of a mishmash, you know,
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of try a mishmash between that director's idea of what it should be in mine,
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you know. And when something like that happens, how blamed are you
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as a writer to the good and bad of the good and bad of the
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sort of director worship? Is that not so much? I mean, it
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was a good spec, it was a good it was a good original script,
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and it wouldn't have gone into production if it hadn't been. And but
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it's just one of those things. If you guys, you don't share a
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vision, sometimes it won't come out the way you want it to. And
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a lot of times I've noticed is that ego when the ego isn't there.
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I love that term. By the way that their egoes that third first in
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the room. It's because of either fear or insecurity. And once they feel
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that like, oh, this person is not going to hurt me, that
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we're on the same page, it does kind of recess a little bit.
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Yeah. I had the really wonderful good fortune of working with Curtis Hampson.
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He was just most wonderful man and wonderful filmmaker, and he had a I
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think I learned a lot from him because he would point out something in the
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script didn't quite work, quite makes sense, and I would say, yeah,
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it does, Yeah, it does, like fight and hold on,
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and then he'd say no. He's lean in really kindly and say no,
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no, no, Susannah. This is a good thing. This means we
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get to go find a better thing together. It's great. And he would
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see every problem and he would always say, no, no, no,
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this is a good thing. And you make a whole movie with someone who
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thinks that way, and it starts to inform your own thinking and you start
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to see problems as good things. And I think that does feel less threatening
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sometimes to partners if you walk in saying, I know that things can always
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get better. Let's keep making it better till we run out of time,
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you know. And that's that's kind of the TV mentality as well as a
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TV writer, because that's right. Yeah, not as much the screen,
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not as much the features writers. From my experience, and from what I
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have who I've talked to, it's not as much it should be, but
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as well as much sometimes, I mean, feature writers are so rarely given
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the opportunity to have that too in their work, so and often have the
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experience of it not getting better or not getting closer to what they had wanted
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it to be at the outset, but further from it. So, you
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know, working with Curtis was it was a blessing because that's not the norm,
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I think, And he was incredibly lovely and generous. He was wonderful.
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He's a wonderful, wonderful filmmaker. Now, you know, you did
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write a little film called Aaron brock something or other the other a little while
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ago. And how did that project Aaron Brockovich come to life? Because you
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are credited the only writer on this, I'm assuming this is an original or
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were you high it was an original? Yeah? It was, but it
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was I had I had just written ever after and it was very which I
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love. And I'm not the only writer on that. The director came in
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and he did some rewriting with his partner, so they're pre credited writers on
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that. But um, but I had just done that and it was I
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love it, but it was very sort of precious and delicately. I mean,
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it's she's meaty too, which is good. But I just wanted to
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I just had in my head that the next thing I wanted to write was
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I had this phrase kick ass broad in my head and I don't know why.
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I was like, I don't know, I just sad, kick ass
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broad. And I went to have a general meeting at Jersey Pictures and Gail
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Lyon was there and told me this story, and they had met Aaron through
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a chiropractor. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
20:06
now back to the show, because you know, that car accident that starts
20:11
the movie actually walked Aaron's back out and she then would go to a chiropractor.
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Well, Michael Schamberg, who was like the president or something of Jersey
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at the time, his wife went to the same chiropractor. So that's how
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they heard Aaron's course, although they had optioned it, and I was,
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you know, I don't know that. I mean, maybe Pocahontas had come
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out, um, but it certainly there was nothing that would suggest that I
20:42
was the right person for the film. Except for that I knew that I
20:47
was. And um, and they I think they said at the time,
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well, actually we're out. We're out to Cali Corey, all right,
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all right. So in two weeks I called up and said, hey,
20:57
just wondering if you'd heard from Cat and they'd say, yes, yes,
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now we're out to Scott Frank And I'd sit for two weeks and then I'd
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call back, and it was I think my polite persistence wore them down.
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I just kept calling and saying, did that other superstar writer pass yet?
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And eventually enough of them passed, and I had checked in often enough that
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they said, all right, well we'll let you meet her. And then
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Aaron and I got on like a house on fire, so so and it
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and just took off from there. Um, there's and there's The dialogue in
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that movie is so beautiful. I love I still remember that scene of like
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numbers, I'll tell you some numbers. That whole I was just sitting there
21:41
in awe because I was like, that's such a wonderful come back to a
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guy obviously hitting on her and this it was so so beautiful, and Julia
21:51
Roberts was saved their performances and the scene and just wonderful and you know,
21:56
but every directed it perfectly, and you know, that's one of those.
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Yeah. I had two films in production at the same time, and one
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of them I was on the set many of the days, and the other
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one and I was also pregnant, so I wasn't there that much, honestly.
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And then Aaron Brockovitch was shooting at the same time, and I was
22:17
never on that set. And Aaron Brockovich looks exactly like the movie I had
22:25
in my head, and the one where I was on the set every day
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looks nothing like the movie that I had in my head. So, you
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know, does being on the set make a difference. I don't know.
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You know, I don't know that scan sometimes but if it's not the right
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team, So why do you get they got it was Stephen got what you
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were doing and that you guys were both mind melded. Apparently that got that
22:52
vision. He saw what I saw, And I don't know how much of
22:56
it was suggested on the page and how much of it just was the luck
23:00
of um, you know, two people who who happened to see something the
23:06
same way, so they didn't really talk about it that much, you know,
23:10
So what was it like working with Steven Because that was a heck of
23:12
a year for him, if I remember correctly, he also did Traffic Try
23:17
did that other little movie called Traffic the same year. It was like,
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well, it's unheard of what he was, what was going on in his
23:22
career at that time, and he's a legendary filmmaker and he's he's a fantastical
23:27
How I didn't work that closely with him, so really it was just not
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at all. Really that's fascinating. I mean, you met with him obviously
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a bit. Yeah right, I did. Yeah, you met with him,
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but he just read the script. It is like I'm good, let's
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go. Yeah yeah. Basically, I mean nothing, nothing's that simple,
23:45
but yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Um So then the Oscars come
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around and you get a nomination I did, And what is what's that like
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at that point in your career You're only like, what five six years in
24:03
at this point? I don't know, was I don't know? I guess
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I guess it was interesting at that At the premiere, um, I saw
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Amy Pascal, who was always has always been extraordinarily lovely and great, and
24:17
you know, we've had a nice um, done a lot of nice work
24:19
together. But I saw her this was early on and I knew her.
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And after the premiere I was filing out of it and she pulled me over
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and she said, this never happens, and I thought, well, maybe
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it does, and maybe it will again. Like she was just smiling me,
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this is remarkable. Appreciate it. Um uh, you know it's it's
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it's it's wonderful. It's it's great and strange and and and you think this
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is, you know, something I've dreamed about and then also doesn't matter at
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all, you know. Yeah, Um, were you that clear Were you
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that clear headed at that time in your life? Because I know as we
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as we all get older, we look back and like, ah, you
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know, but when you're younger coming up like the Oscar, the Oscar,
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the Oscar, you know, yeah, it's probably about my family of origin,
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but those were not our values like growing up, they just they just
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weren't not better, not worse, they were just other. So, um,
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I did you know. I brought my brother and sister to it,
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and I thought they thought it was a kick, you know, so sure,
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it's fun. It was fun. It was a kid. It was.
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So it isn't like I don't want to denigrate the Academy at all.
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It's it's a lovely thing they do, and it's it's nice, and it's
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also incredibly surreal. We were sitting at the ceremony, my husband and I
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and um, and he said, boy, if you dropped down from outer
25:52
space into this theater, you would think that this is our God. I
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want an amazing what an amazing observation. It's a bit of that. But
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it's lovely, and the Academy is great, and the you know, to
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have the fellowship of you know, all these remarkable people who've told the stories
26:18
that ordered your brain growing up and and and into adulthood is just an incredible
26:26
luxury. And to be part of that community and to be fair and to
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be fair to your husband. He's not wrong at all. He's wrong.
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He's not wrong at all. And in Hollywood, that is other than the
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dollar. The Oscar is a quite close second. If I'm not gonna say
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so. You go through the ceremony, you go through all of this,
26:48
you know, all the hooplah then, because I've had many Oscar winners and
26:49
Oscar nominees on the show before, and I love asking what happened after?
26:53
How did the town treat you afterwards? When you got you know, all
26:57
this because the spotlights on you and it's there's a window, there's a window
27:02
of time where you're the it girl, the it guy. What was that
27:07
like? What was that kind of journey for you? Honestly? I just
27:11
uh um, I'm a bit of a hustler and I don't ever like honestly
27:21
any um. I don't like thinking about awards. I don't have any.
27:29
I mean, I'm I'm thrilled to have received some awards in my time,
27:33
but I don't have any of them any place I can see them because I
27:36
just don't. I don't know that that would do anything good for my head.
27:41
So what I am ware of is at it up your price like it's
27:44
great. Your agent asked for more money, and I think writers should get
27:48
more money always, So if you can do that, if you can bump
27:52
up your price, great. I didn't just keep rocking and rolling because I'm
28:00
I'm being more diminishing of it. I guess what I mean is it probably
28:03
did stuff, but I'm so afraid of resting on laurels, and it never
28:08
ever ever makes the writing easier. In fact, I think it might make
28:11
it harder if you pay attention to it. So um, you know,
28:17
it doesn't make any difference if you were out, you know, at the
28:21
Vanity Fair party till to the night before, you're gonna sit down in a
28:23
computer and it's not going to be one iota easier, not one iota.
28:29
So in terms of my work, no difference. Yeah, it almost seems
28:38
the work itself. It almost seems because again speaking to so many who have
28:44
done gone through what you've gone through, it seems almost like a burden in
28:48
a certain way because now I win. So it wasn't a burden, you
28:52
know, it was Cameron Crows burden. Yeah it was exactly. But but
28:56
the them the burden of like if you get it, if it gets in
29:03
your head of life, oh my god, what's next? All I have
29:07
to do this or I have to do that, it does kind of tweak
29:10
with you a little bit. But one thing I've really fascinated by talking to
29:12
so many, you know, accomplished screenwriters like yourself and filmmakers, they're still
29:18
in the roses in their work. They still don't think in many ways that
29:23
they're like it's still tough. I still don't think I'm good enough. I
29:26
still think someone's going to walk into the room at any second and go,
29:30
what are you doing here? You're not supposed to be in here? Security
29:32
get her out? Is that kind of the vibe? Do you still feel
29:34
in any ways? Well, the second part not anymore, you know,
29:38
the second part. I mean, I've been doing this a long time and
29:41
friends and we all, we all. Security is not taking you out.
29:45
No, but absolutely it's still challenging and you're still facing a wall every day.
29:51
But that's u A the fun of it. We'll be right back after
30:00
word from our sponsor and now back to the show. It doesn't feel like
30:08
fun, but it is what makes it interesting. And b I don't think
30:14
the work is for me is much good without that. I think if it's
30:18
sort of like what I was saying earlier about what I discovered about writing scenes
30:22
in Party of five, if I feel like I can do something and yeah,
30:26
I'll just whip this one off, it's not going to be good.
30:30
It won't. And I always have to feel as if there's something I'm trying
30:34
to figure out, and I like a little bit of panic associated with my
30:44
with my work. Very early on, I knew herb Sergeant, who was
30:51
Alvin Sargeant's brother, and I was talking to him very very early on in
30:56
my career, and he said, oh, yeah, every time Alvin takes
31:00
a job, he calls me up and says, I can't do it.
31:02
I got to give the money back. Now, I think Alvin Sargeant has
31:07
written some of the most beautiful movies I've ever seen, and he was a
31:11
lovely man, And I thought, Okay, Alvin Sargeant, it's tying himself
31:15
in knots and saying he has to give the money back. Maybe that is
31:19
not a glitch in the system, in my system. Maybe that doesn't mean
31:23
I don't belong here. If Alvin Sargeant has proceeded with that and done the
31:29
work he's done, maybe it is in fact an integral part of good work.
31:33
So that was an early gift you when you're writing, do you have
31:38
the experience of sometimes being in that flow where when you're done writing, you
31:44
look at it and go, I don't know who just wrote that, but
31:45
that's fantastic. I don't look at my work right when I write it that
31:51
carefully. What I tend to do is look at it the next morning,
31:55
look at the prior day's work. And usually I go over a prior a
32:00
few days work before I start writing. And it is kind of exciting when
32:04
you look at something and you don't really recognize it. It's pretty great it
32:07
does, and it's kind of like we all strive for, is to have
32:12
that that flow moment that you just are there and it just kind of goes.
32:15
Do you what is your schedule like when you write? Do you actually
32:19
have a time? Do you like, you know, like Eric Roth has,
32:22
like this time, and it's understand I do. I've got a pretty
32:24
set day, you know, I've spent It's I'm actually just getting back into
32:30
it now because I'm finishing post on a movie I directed. But it is.
32:34
I have a ridiculously early wake up, but actually many writers I know
32:37
have this week. I get up at four thirty and make a cup of
32:39
coffee. I work for well, it used to be when when my kids
32:45
were at home, I would work for three hours and then that was long
32:49
enough to get into some sort of roove so that I could, you know,
32:53
go do the breakfast thing, get folks off to school, okay,
32:58
and come back and still feel as if I was invested in work anything less
33:02
than that, it would be hard to get back into it. So I
33:05
needed about three hours to feel like, oh, I got to get back
33:08
to work, you know, um, and then I usually write till about
33:15
midday ish, you know, twelve one something like that, and then and
33:22
then you know, business stuff emails fucking around what happens in the afternoon.
33:29
Fair enough, So let me let me ask you a very simple question.
33:32
What what is it about writing that you love? What keeps you? Because
33:37
this is, you know, it's tough. Very early on in life,
33:43
like as a kid, I got this idea that this whole life thing was
33:46
a massive rip off, that you only got to live one of them,
33:51
like there's there are infinite numbers of This was before the notion of multi versus
33:57
entered our consciousness, and who knows, maybe that changes that everything, But
34:00
but I thought, it's just a rip off. I only get to be
34:04
me, and I don't get to be that cowboy, and I don't get
34:07
to be that, you know, that sanitation worker, and I don't get
34:14
to be that, Like, how is that seems so unfair? It just
34:17
seemed like someone had presented a massive boot massive buffet and said you can have
34:23
one shrimp and that's it, you know, and so um, just imagining
34:30
other existences started really really early. And for a while I thought, for
34:36
a little while, I thought I might be and I might go at it
34:39
by acting. And I did that for a little bit after school, but
34:45
it just disposition only the life didn't work for me, and and and I
34:52
got I got bored doing it. You know, I do a show two
34:54
nights in a row, and by the third night, I think I just
34:58
did this. Why am I doing it? So? You look? Really
35:01
I didn't have the right mentality of you're looking every night life on Broadways not
35:08
for you. It's basically, you know, like anything more than a two
35:10
night run. And I was out very short career. Yeah, but then
35:15
I was I was, you know, fairly lost in life and didn't know
35:20
what I was going to do because I didn't. I also thought I might
35:22
be a journalist, which is also another way to sort of gather up experience,
35:27
and then that that didn't seem like the thing either, and then I
35:32
just like I moved to San Francisco, which is what you do when you
35:36
have no idea what you're doing. Because no one else there knew what they
35:37
were doing either, and and I was really lonely. So I tried writing
35:45
a script and I thought, oh, oh this I could do. This,
35:49
I could do for a long time, like just keep creating a world
35:53
over and over of my imagination. Yeah, that's beautiful, that's really beautiful.
36:00
It seems like you had a thirst for life, and this is the
36:02
way you kind of suck the bone marrow the marrow out of the bone of
36:07
life in many ways. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I do think
36:12
it's important to say they were fairly torturous years finding that, you know.
36:16
And I talk to a lot of young people who sort of, you know,
36:23
just just are hungry, understandably hungry to figure out how to get to
36:30
a place. And you really have to go through some gnarly stuff to find
36:35
out who you really want to be. And maybe they always want to say,
36:38
listen to yourself, maybe this will be what you want to be,
36:43
but maybe something else will come out of the blue, and be open to
36:45
it. Keep your ears open, because if I had just had like my
36:49
nose to the grindstone with acting, would have had a very unhappy life,
36:52
you know. So so you know, the uncertainty and the fear and the
37:00
panic and sleepless nights and all that. I think they're important to pay attention
37:05
to, and they can lead you someplace good, you know, if you
37:08
listen. If you listen, that's the very key point there. Now,
37:13
you got a chance to direct the film, your first film, which is
37:17
Catch and Release, which I loved by the way I saw that. It's
37:22
a fun, little, wonderful, little wonderful little film. What was your
37:27
biggest lesson directing, because I know you directed a bit on television, but
37:30
it's a bit different. Yeah, it's a bit different. Well, really
37:34
it's my lesson from that film was less about directing, although there are a
37:38
bunch of those, and more about being clear on the movie you're making.
37:47
And Amy Pascal, that was a Sony movie, and she and I have
37:51
talked about it since then. But that movie should have been a five million
37:54
dollars Sun Dance movie. But she gave me, I think it was thirty
38:00
million dollars to make the movie. And I kept thinking, I don't feel
38:06
like a thirty million dollar movie. But she's right in the check, so
38:07
I'm not going to argue. And then as we got close to shooting,
38:15
it became clear, and I guess we just hadn't spoken to each other clearly
38:20
enough beforehand that she had expectations of a kind of romantic comedy that I didn't
38:24
think we're inherent in the script, and so all during production we were trying
38:29
to sort of pull it into something that would hold on to what I loved
38:34
and deliver on what she felt she had bought. And like I said,
38:39
she and I have talked about it plenty since then, and it has a
38:44
lot of lovely little moments in it, but I think we spent too much
38:46
money on it, you know, And so it has an ending that is
38:51
sort of a classic romantic comedy ending, which wasn't where we started, just
38:57
trying to deliver on a sort of studio product that it probably shouldn't have tried
39:04
to be. So that's that's the lesson there is just be really clear upfront
39:08
with what movie you're making with the people who are giving you the money,
39:12
because because eventually they're gonna want what they bought exactly, and you driving to
39:21
the set every day like rewriting the ending way too much. Um. But
39:27
but I had some great, great partners on that I had. I was
39:30
working with the cinematographer named John Linley, who I've worked with many times since
39:36
then, and he made a bunch of movies, and every now and then
39:40
I would just sidle over and say so and just ask him a question.
39:45
He always had a great answer. So, when you're reading the script,
39:49
when you're shooting a film, do you how can you tell which scenes are
39:52
not going to make it in the final cut? And he said to me,
39:54
well, if it says blashback, be right back after a word from
40:00
our sponsor, and now back to the show. And so since then,
40:12
I've thought I put a very high bar on any flashback I used because somebody
40:16
who had made twenty movies before me said he shot a bunch of flashbacks that
40:20
didn't make it in cuts. Why is that, you know, just a
40:23
lot of wisdom like that night shoots, Yeah, night shoots, rainy night
40:30
shoots. Try to get those out of the script reproduction. Funny you should
40:32
say that. I have pictures of us at night in just looking like drowned
40:37
rats because we were in Vancouver, were a ring constantly. But I really
40:44
love all the performances in that. Oh, I don't think everyone does a
40:47
beautiful job and I think I learned also that I don't think. I don't
40:54
think I had fun doing it for about the first half of the shoot.
40:58
I think I was so intent on being ready and prepared and professional and you
41:04
know, successful at the job that I that I forgot to have fun for
41:09
a bit. And actually having fun for me is a really important part of
41:15
that job. It makes you relaxed, it makes other people relaxed. It
41:21
is a fun job. It's an incredibly fun job, so it should be
41:24
fun um and and you know, relaxing. There's always a feeling I have
41:31
at the beginning of any scene of oh God, I hope it works,
41:37
you know, before your shoot, the first out of it, and the
41:44
play when it doesn't quite and the play of finding finding that again that unexpected
41:50
thing within it, and he is really enjoyable, really enjoyable, really fun.
41:57
So as directors, you know, there's always that one day on set
42:00
that you feel the entire world's going to crash it down around you. Now,
42:02
that should be every day if you're doing your job right, but there's
42:06
that one day that you just like, I don't know if we're going to
42:07
make it today. I don't know if I'm gonna make my day. I
42:09
don't know if I'm gonna get this shot. You know, what was that
42:13
day for you? And how did you overcome it on catch and release?
42:16
Yeah? You know. I I'm going to preface this by saying that one
42:22
of my I've heard it's very good in terms of longevity, but one of
42:27
my qualities is that I do not remember bad stuff that well, oh oh
42:32
god, no, I can remember. There was a scene we were shooting
42:37
that was supposed to be the last scene, and you know, like I
42:40
said, I just kept trying to deliver an ending that would fit with the
42:44
movie, and and we ended up reshooting it because I knew it wasn't that
42:51
good, and the actors knew it wasn't that good. It wasn't what it
42:54
should be, and none of us were saying it out loud. We were
42:58
just trying to deliver on it. And it was this like it this big,
43:01
it just it was. It was. It's that when you're the only
43:07
thing that's uncomfortable is when you're doing something you're trying to tell yourself it's working
43:10
and it doesn't, So I stop stop doing that. Then, Um,
43:15
yeah, that was that was a bad day. Did you but we got
43:20
it. So yeah, when you go through when you're going through that,
43:22
though, it does take a certain level of confidence within yourself in the skill
43:25
set. You have to either say stop, this is not working, we
43:30
need to just stop it from here. But this was your first big this
43:32
is my first thing. I didn't know to do that. I should.
43:35
I would do that beat now absolutely absolutely, like we're wasting film or wasting
43:39
time. Let's just stop and figure out if this is worth our while.
43:44
Yeah, and on the set with an amazing casset you have where anytime you've
43:49
directed, have you had to deal with opposing opinions of what the story should
43:54
be and having to fight, whether it be crew members, whether it be
44:00
videos, whether the actors. How do you overcome that as a director?
44:06
Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. Right, you win some of you
44:08
something and you know, look, you have to accept that it's a collaborative
44:15
art form, right and you're hiring people not just for their face and body
44:21
but for their inner life. And and like I said with the when I
44:27
was those two films before, you never really know until you get into the
44:30
sandbox with someone if they if you have the same idea of what you're building,
44:35
you know, um so, and sometimes it turns into something else that
44:40
is different than what you had in mind but is but is really remarkable too.
44:45
You know, there was one performance and I won't name it, but
44:50
the first couple of days I was thinking, um, this is this feels
44:55
really different than what I had in mind, but she seems to really committed
45:00
to it. It ended up being a fantastic performance. She won awards for
45:05
it. It was it was so you know, you have to leave yourself
45:09
open to the idea that your partner has a great idea, and it might
45:13
be it might challenge your idea, and sometimes sometimes it makes it better,
45:19
and you just have to be alert to when it's not doing that. You
45:22
know. Yes, I think one of the themes of this conversation is listen
45:28
to yourself, Listen to the gut, listen to you instincts for both both
45:31
those sides, whether it's something like I think this is going to go awry
45:36
and crash into a wall, or I feel there's something here, I don't
45:39
know what it is. Let me just step back a little bit and let's
45:43
see what happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I mean it's
45:46
all you have, right everything came from your gut. It's just um and
45:53
I I think that the conscious mind, when it comes to create vity,
46:00
is probably the least important element, you know, I try to write.
46:05
The reason I write when I write at that hour is that I think I'm
46:08
still kind of asleep, you know, there's part of your sleeping brain that's
46:13
still engaged. And I get my coffee all set the night before, so
46:17
I don't have to do much. I can go pretty quickly from sleep to
46:21
work because I think you're unconscious and you're subconscious, are more alive at that
46:27
time after before you've made lists and phone calls and cooked eggs and whatever else
46:32
you're doing. This boring. That's a very interesting thing, though, because
46:37
you're right, you're kind of like in that in between sleep and awake stage.
46:40
Your brain hasn't really turned on yet, so it's not the noise of
46:45
the crap that we have to deal with. The voices in our head and
46:49
all that stuff is a little bit quieter, so you can kind of just
46:51
tap into whatever that ether is to get the ideas in the in the flow.
46:57
Correct. Yeah, And you also can convince yourself at four thirty in
47:01
the morning that you're the only person awake on the planet. You know,
47:06
it feels like it's just you and the moon, and you know, great,
47:10
fantastic now you also you also you also worked on a little film called
47:15
Charlotte's Web, which is such a beautiful film. I mean, it's such
47:20
a beautiful story. How did you approach adapting literally one of the biggest classic
47:29
children's classic books? Ever? How do you approach that? Well, it's
47:32
interesting because in the beginning, I spent a lot of time in Maine on
47:37
the actual lake where eb White wrote. So I'm very reverential of his work,
47:45
and that work in particular, and I thought, okay, straight up,
47:51
faithful, loyal. And I got about halfway through the script and I
47:55
read it and it was just dead. It was just flat and dead and
48:00
lifeless. And I thought, okay, that's not going to work. So
48:07
I infused it with just with just more life, and I thought, the
48:14
book will exist as long as humans exist. This book will never go out
48:17
of print. Everyone will read it, love it. This has to different
48:22
medium, it has to have different um dimension to it. So I did
48:29
that, and then I remember what happened. It could have been that I
48:32
went off to make catch and release. At some point I ended up having
48:37
to leave and carry Kirkpatrick came in, who's a wonderful writer and um,
48:44
a very funny writer, and he sort of um, he brought a whole
48:52
other, you know element to it as well. So um. So that's
48:57
that's the thing. You just can't feel like you are just typing the book
49:05
well, I think it won't have the life it needs. It's the same
49:07
thing when you're writing a story about a real person, you know you have
49:12
to I the first time I did it was with Aaron Brackovich, and I
49:19
knew her and I really liked her and really admired her, and I would
49:23
start writing and I would think, well, I'm not I'm not sure what
49:25
she would do here. Maybe I should ask Aaron. I'm not sure what
49:29
she should do. And then I thought, God, I feel like i'm
49:30
writing with handcuffs on. So I decided in my head there are two Errands.
49:36
There's the erin whom I really enjoy and admire, and then there's the
49:45
erin I'm writing, and they're totally different. And I'm just going to trust
49:49
that I know her well enough and I am not I'm interested in just representing
49:57
her we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to
50:06
the show. Truthfully, but that's but it's but this one's mine, and
50:12
I ended up with a much more faithful representation of her than I would have
50:17
had I not given myself that license. Yeah, and that's that is a
50:22
mistake. I think a lot of people who adapt do is the whether the
50:25
real life person or a real life story or a book, because I mean
50:30
I remember watching The Godfather behind the scenes and watching what Francis did with the
50:34
book, and he just, I mean, what he pulled out, what
50:38
he wanted. Yeah, yeah, he was he was constructing a blueprint and
50:43
it was wonderful to see his process. It was. Yeah, but you
50:46
really have to be master and commander when you're writing something. You have to
50:50
be it has to be your world. You're in charge, nobody over you.
50:54
It's your And obviously then it goes into production and then you're making a
50:59
film and then other voices. But when you are writing that script, you
51:02
have to feel it's you're in charge and you're the ultimate authority on it.
51:08
Now, if you had a chance to go back and talk to that young
51:13
film student, free Pocahonnas what advice would you give her? Well? None,
51:19
because it worked out really well. So obviously if I had known more
51:22
than maybe I wouldn't have. I don't know, you know, I used
51:27
to worry. I used to worry a lot about I mean, I would
51:30
you know, I would turn into script on Friday and I would be apoplectic
51:36
until Monday, And so I think, I don't. I don't do that
51:43
anymore. Obviously, I want people to like my work always, but I
51:47
don't turn myself into you know, knots over it. And I may trying
51:54
to tell myself he's up a little, but I don't know. Maybe that
51:58
level of anxiety what pushed me to make my work better than it would have
52:04
been otherwise. So I yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't say anything different
52:09
fair enough, I mean, you can't. I have no quibble with how
52:15
my life is going these days. And if every miserable step along the way
52:20
is what I needed to get here, I've take them all. You know,
52:22
isn't that a great life lesson Because a lot of people want to avoid
52:25
all the bad stuff. I like, but the bad stuff will makes you
52:28
grow. If the bad stuff is what makes you gets you to that but
52:31
it also gives you character to be a better writer. Yeah, and then
52:35
when that's what you share, that's what people respond to. You know.
52:39
The whole point of these stories is for people to feel seen, you know,
52:44
people for people, just to make the world a little less lonely.
52:47
You know, people watch something and say, oh, yeah, I feel
52:52
that too. Maybe I'm not the only one who feels that. Maybe I'm
52:54
not the only one going to and you're not going to. You're not going
52:59
to do that without living hard into the infer difficulties of life, you know,
53:05
without question. I'm gonna ask you a few questions, ask all of
53:07
my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter starting in the
53:13
business today. I struggle with this one a bit because the on ramps are
53:22
different now than they were when I was starting. You can make your own
53:24
films so cheaply now, and so I would. I would tell people to
53:29
do that as much as possible, But the quality of your work remains the
53:34
same. Be hard on yourself. I don't mean punishing of yourself on a
53:40
personal level, but be demanding of your work. Set your bar high.
53:45
I do this thing at the end of every script, when I think it's
53:49
ready. I read it as if I were an actor and I had a
53:52
lot of options, and and I try to figure out, if I have
54:00
a lot of options, am I going to do this one before all those
54:02
other great options? And um, and that is a that's a way I
54:07
hold my work to what I think is a higher standard. Um, So
54:15
I would find those ways you can. You can push yourself to make your
54:19
work as good as it can be, because nothing's worse than putting work out
54:22
there that isn't ready that you could have made better. And then you're just
54:27
disappointed in yourself and you're not getting yourself where you want to be. Do
54:30
your best work. Do your best work. I mean rough and very school
54:37
marmie. But that's what my advice is. Now, what is the lesson
54:42
that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film industry or in
54:45
life. Oh golly, oh golly, I wish I'd paid attention to these
54:51
before we spoke. Um, I'm gonna have to come back to that one.
54:58
Well, hold we'll hold it, will hold it, hold it all
55:00
right? Um, what what did you learn from your biggest failure that I
55:07
can survive failure? That's a good lesson to learn. There are worse things
55:12
than failure. Honestly, it can be rough if you are achievement oriented and
55:19
failure reverse. It can be painful, but that failure is not death.
55:22
Failure is often something you can learn a lot from. It is the process.
55:28
It is part of the process. You have to film it. And
55:30
if you win all the time, you learn nothing. And they're great,
55:32
There are there is gold in failure. It's painful, and it's the other
55:37
thing is that our work is public, so so failure is public, and
55:40
so you feel embarrassed and you know whatever, but there is real gold in
55:46
failure looking at something to say, okay, well, then next time I
55:51
won't do that. And what are three screenplays that every screenwriter should read?
55:58
Okay? Well, first of all, every screenwriting logistical problem is solved somewhere
56:05
within the script of Tutsi. So yes, it's just what learned Tutsi.
56:12
When you hit a wall, think what did they do in Tutsi? And
56:15
you'll find some way that one of those I think it was six writers figured
56:20
out a logistical challenge. So Tutsie is a good one witness because it's spectacular
56:27
and it shows you how little dialogue. You actually need um to make a
56:32
moment moment meaningful. Um gosh, it's hard. It's hard not to say
56:40
Godfather Part two, right, god one and two? You could put them
56:45
put together. That's okay, Yes to put one and two are considered the
56:50
same for me. Yeah, I mean you can't walt. I mean that's
56:52
I mean all. But then there are there are ones that I just adore.
56:57
You know, all the President's Men. Every scene forces you into the
57:01
next scene. There's no point you can't drop into All the President's Men and
57:06
not stay till the end. It is the most propulsive movie. And to
57:09
look at that and think, how did they do that? Fantastic. And
57:13
then there's I'm good, I'm giving you more than three Running on Empty by
57:19
Naomi Phoner. Yeah, just the most beautiful movie. And it's a great
57:24
opening. You meet River Phoenix and he's playing little league baseball. And this
57:30
is a guy who is not attached to anything because his family for those people,
57:34
his family is on the run. And he can't really play baseball because
57:39
he's never been parted, but he's playing anyway. And someone says to him,
57:44
I'm not going to quote it accurately, but one of the first lines
57:47
he says, someone says to him, why do you even play? And
57:50
he says, baseball is my life. And it's the most wonderful first line
57:54
for a character because in that moment with this guy who has not been allowed
58:00
to put down roots anywhere, in that moment, baseball is his life,
58:05
and it's it's it's shallow, and he's It's such a great first character introductions.
58:12
So that's another one too. I could go on all day. But
58:15
we I mean Chinatown, Network, I mean Shawshank, I mean, you
58:19
can just keep going. Network is the movie that got me into movies.
58:21
I should have said that one is that? How about Nashville Altman? I
58:25
mean, I mean the player. I love the player. I just love
58:30
watching the player. They don't do those pitches. They don't. Of course,
58:34
they don't do those pitch sessions anymore like they do than the player do
58:36
that. I think they do. But they don't buy pitches as much as
58:40
they used to. No, they don't. They don't. Well, it
58:43
depends on who you are. I mean, they probably not like that anymore.
58:47
Yeah, those those and let me ask you the days of like the
58:51
nineties of Shane Black, days and the Joe Esterhouse days where they were just
58:53
dropping two mil, three mil, four mil, five mil on on spec
58:58
scripts. Those days are pretty much they are gone. I think spect script
59:04
and still do really well. There's still there's a million two million, but
59:07
they're rarer. Before it was just like water. Yeah, I feel like
59:13
I had this theory in the first couple decades of doing this that there was
59:21
it was what I called the pile of stupid money, and it moved.
59:25
And when I first started, the pile of stupid money was all in specs,
59:30
in film specs, right, and it was just like, I don't
59:34
know where the money was coming from, but it was massive amounts for And
59:37
then the pile of stupid money moved into TV overall deals and they were just
59:42
the crazy overall. I mean, I'm sure that for a while there that
59:45
it was some Yeah, actress had actors, actors, actors had network deals
59:51
like overall looked deals. I don't know. I think I think those piles
59:53
of stupid money might be disappearing in the corporate conglomeration of our business. We'll
1:00:00
be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
1:00:07
show. I mean, they look a little harder at their spreadsheets than I
1:00:15
was when I had. I had somebody who worked who was the president of
1:00:17
Richard Donner's company back in the eighties. Can you imagine? And he's like,
1:00:22
I was there ten years And I go, what was it like working
1:00:25
with Dick on some of these projects? And he's like, this is how
1:00:29
it would go. He would read the script he got Lethal Weapon, he
1:00:34
read it, he said, I want to make this movie. He'd call
1:00:37
up the president of Warners. He goes, I got a script, I
1:00:39
want to make it. And the president of Warners goes cool, and no
1:00:44
discussion of money. Whatever Dick wanted Dick got. It's like and never like,
1:00:49
oh, you only can make it for thirty and but he was very
1:00:52
responsible. He was a hit maker and he and he had delivered consistently,
1:00:55
right, and he's Richard Donner for got six So that was and I'm like,
1:01:00
illegals, Yeah, that's when filmmakers run ran the studios. Yeah,
1:01:04
yeah, they don't mountain as much. If you read the Mike Nichols um
1:01:07
Oh biography, and every every time they got to the discussion of the catering
1:01:14
table, it's a very detailed and beautiful biography, but I would think,
1:01:20
man, you could not, Like, I can't imagine getting that catering budgetness.
1:01:25
Was it that extravagant? Oh he had the most spectacular catering really,
1:01:34
lobster and sushi every day? Yeah, absolutely fake? Nothing got the best?
1:01:39
Um and and last question, three of your favorite films. Oh,
1:01:44
well I said them. Um uh Rocky right up there. I adore Rocky.
1:01:51
There's a bad scene in Rocky. There isn't a bad scene in Ordinary
1:01:54
People. That movie is just perfect and brilliant. Um, I'm going for
1:02:00
I'm going for the unexpected ones like look, I love all that. I
1:02:05
love all the movies everyone loves. Um. But but my Little Secret Treasures,
1:02:12
I think truly, madly, deeply is an incredible I love that film
1:02:16
of a film. Oh God, bless his heart. Yeah yeah he was.
1:02:21
He was in the l Yeah. Yeah, he was in that movie,
1:02:22
wasn't he Yeah? Yeah yeah of course yeah, yeah, yeah,
1:02:24
such a great film. Um. You know I mentioned Running on Empty and
1:02:31
Witness and um uh the Way We Were is it's just so beautifully written.
1:02:43
There's a screenplay, there's an unconventional screenplay the first time. Yeah, I
1:02:50
don't know how long it is maybe it's the first twenty minutes or flashback incredible,
1:02:54
great, Maybe it's more. I mean, if you want to talk
1:02:59
about you know, and I'm gonna I'm gonna pat you on the back here
1:03:01
for a second. I mean the introduction to Aaron and Aaron Brockovich. It's
1:03:06
it's I mean, I've had people who are teachers of screenwriting who teach that
1:03:12
scene as a beautiful, almost perfect in introduction to a character because you learn
1:03:20
so much about her in a short period of time. It is condensed,
1:03:25
it is wonderful, it is comedic. You feel for you connected because if
1:03:30
that scene doesn't work, get done. Yeah, yeah, Julie Roberts,
1:03:37
guess what that well, there's yeah, right, exactly know. There's also
1:03:45
um, I like when movies do are that's thank you for saying that.
1:03:52
But there's also in Silkwood, one of the first things, you know,
1:03:57
one of the hardest, one of the gnarly things to do, is name
1:04:00
all your characters, right, like everybody knows who everyone is, you know,
1:04:03
without saying hey, Bill. And early on in Silkwood, they pull
1:04:09
up to the the Kermagie entrance and they're all car pooling and they lean out
1:04:16
the window and say their names so they can get into work. It's fantastic.
1:04:21
It's just you set it up. It's done. It's perfect. Yes,
1:04:27
Yes. And then here's a really good one. Okay, Dog Day
1:04:31
Afternoon. Oh so Frank Pearson came to a FI when I was there and
1:04:41
he showed that movie and he talked about it, and he talked about the
1:04:44
very beginning and you know, he comes in and he takes the gun out
1:04:47
of the flower box and it gets all messed up and it's very early on.
1:04:51
And he was talking about that scene and he said, the important thing
1:04:55
to do was tell the audience you can laugh in this movie. And I
1:04:59
had to tell them right up front. And it does that, it says
1:05:02
because if you hadn't had that, if you got well into what happens in
1:05:06
that bank and then expected people to laugh, they wouldn't have done it.
1:05:11
So that's a good that's a good little lesson there too. Yeah, because
1:05:15
that's a slightly intense film. Yeah yeah, but you feel free to laugh
1:05:19
when when you can, because he said, right up front, go ahead.
1:05:24
You know, Susanna, I can keep talking to me for hours.
1:05:26
I appreciate you coming on the show. So much. Thank you so much
1:05:29
for being on the show, for the amazing work you've done throughout your career
1:05:31
and continuing to be an inspiration to so many screenwriters out there. My DearS,
1:05:34
Thank you, Thank you, Alex. It's very nice to talk to
1:05:36
you. You have a great day. I want to thank Susanna so much
1:05:42
for coming on the show and dropping her knowledge bombs on all of us.
1:05:45
Thank you so much, Susanna. If you want to get links to anything
1:05:47
we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof
1:05:50
Screenwriting dot tv. Ford's Clash two and if you have it already, please
1:05:57
head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a good review for
1:06:01
the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you
1:06:04
again so much for listening. Guys, as always, keep that hustle going,
1:06:08
keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to
1:06:11
you soon. Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at Indie Film
1:06:15
Hustle dot com. That's I N D I E F I L M h
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