Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Two College Students Dead, Killer Lurking at Gas Stations?

Transcript

Two College Students Dead, Killer Lurking at Gas Stations? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Tonight, two beautiful young college students dead. The killer lurking
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: at gas stations. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Two Ole Miss students have died in separate incidents on
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: and near campus. Authorities say the deaths do not appear connected,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: but packaged kratom from a retailer was reportedly found during
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: both investigations.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: When things tragic like this happen, it's important to me
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: for students to know that this is a person, not
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: just a giant headline.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: This is somebody that you went to class with.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Two young students dead, the killer lurking at the gas
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: station right around the corner. Again, I'm Nancy Grayson. This
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you for
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: being with us. That from our friends at CBS. Straight
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: out to Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Dave Mack,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: tell me about the two students and how they were
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: found dead.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Nancy, we have two students. One, 18-year-old freshman Aiden Hamilton
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: from Englewood, Colorado. 20-year-old Robert Strang, a junior from Atlanta, Georgia.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Both students are around the Ole Miss campus. To be
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: very specific here, Aiden Hamilton was on campus at Ole Miss.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Robert Strang at an apartment just off campus, but within
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: the campus area.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Dave, I hate to interrupt you, but I'm trying to
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: get some specifics. Were they found in their off-campus apartment?
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Were they found in their dorm? Were they in bed?
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Were they in the bathroom? Were there visible signs of
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: any type of violence?
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Anything.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Give me the facts about how they were found, the
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: condition of their bodies. Who found them? What time?
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Aidan Hamilton. The 18-year-old freshman from Englewood, Colorado, found unresponsive
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: in his dorm room at Stuart Hall on the Ole
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Miss campus. This happened in the afternoon on Monday. Dispatch
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: records show that emergency responders were sent to Stuart Hall
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: just after 1.30 p.m. He was unconscious when he was
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: discovered by friends. CPR was attempted and continued while on
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: phone with 911. until the first responders arrived. Straight out
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, our now psychoanalyst.
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: You can see her on Hulu, on Bravo, on Peacock.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: She's got a brand new.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Hit podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. Dr. Bethany,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us tonight. When you work
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: your whole life, okay, you pour all your love, all
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: your time, blood, sweat, and tears, all your money, your efforts,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: your hopes, your dreams, I could go on into your child,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: your children. Then you think, hey, we made it. They're
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: on their way to college. They're in college. They're doing fine.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: And then you get the phone call Your son is
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: dead in his dorm room where you've been to the dorm,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: you've examined the dorm, there's security, everything's fine. How is
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: he dead? I don't see how a parent gets past this.
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: And you know, Nancy, these parents have gone to college
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: orientation where they are taught that there's security on campus,
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: that there is an adult in the room, metaphorically, that
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: there are people there to watch out for the children.
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: There's so much rah-rah and they're also looking forward to
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: a future. with their college student. They're looking forward to
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: that person getting their first job, getting married, having grandchildren
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: and grandchildren. So all those hopes and dreams cut short.
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: And you know, Nancy, when a kid goes to college,
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: it's a terrifying time for a parent because they cannot
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: watch over their child day to day, hour to hour
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: for the first time. And this happens also, Nancy, mortality
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: rates are statistically very low. on college campuses. So it's
• 4:21
  Speaker 5: quite a mystery as to how this could have happened.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Dr. Bethany, it's not just that. It's the self-blame. The
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: self-blame by parents that they send their child to school,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: a good school, here, Ole Miss, and the child, the teen,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: is dead in their dorm.
• 4:42
  Speaker 5: And the type of self-blame takes the form of, should
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: I have sent them to a different school? Were they
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: too young to go? Did I not give them enough
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: instructions on safety? Did I not educate them about always
• 4:54
  Speaker 5: having a friend with them? I mean, the self-blame takes
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: the form of endless questions and recriminations. And that's not all, Nancy.
• 5:03
  Speaker 5: Then all of a sudden, the community piles on and
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: starts to make the parent feel guilty. They'll even start
• 5:10
  Speaker 5: to question the victim and say, well, were they out
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: late at night? Was this a girl wearing a sexy outfit?
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: Was this somebody who just partied all night long. And
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: so the self-recrimination, the blame from the community just amplifies
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: an already terrible, terrible situation.
• 5:29
  Speaker 6: He was the funniest dude in the room.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: Whenever you walked in, he was so charismatic.
• 5:34
  Speaker 6: How do your loved ones, you know, appreciate them more
• 5:37
  Speaker 6: because you never know what's going to happen.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at Scripps News. Dave Mack, you've
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: told me about Aiden. What about the second victim?
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Robert Strang, 20 years old. He's a junior from Atlanta, Georgia, Nancy.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: And his situation is considerably different than Aiden Hamilton. Robert
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Strang was found deceased in an off-campus residence in a
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: house in that he was living in in Van Buren Avenue.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: At this point, investigators have not released who found his body,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: what condition or what circumstances surrounded him. It's almost behind
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: a veil, a curtain, so to speak. We don't even
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: know who called 911 with regard to Robert Strang's passing.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: We only know that it was in a residence off campus,
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: and he had this death, was reported immediately. 911 was
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: not informed of CPR being performed or first responders doing
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: the same. So a very different situation with the death
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: of Robert Strang as opposed to Aiden Hamilton who died
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: on campus.
• 6:45
  Speaker 6: We didn't think to come back to like such sad
• 6:47
  Speaker 6: news of losing two classmates. College is supposed to be
• 6:50
  Speaker 6: where we grow and like gain new experiences. It's not
• 6:52
  Speaker 6: supposed to be where our lives end.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: That's pretty terrifying honestly to know that like all that
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: stuff is there that like You might not even know
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: how dangerous it is because you don't know what it is.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: WSB TV and GMA straight out to Vanessa Walsh joining
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: us tonight, star of Unmasked True Crime. Vanessa, thank you
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: for being with us. While the COD is not being announced,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: there is a common killer on the scene that is
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: lurking in gas stations right around the corner. Explained.
• 7:32
  Speaker 7: So what immediately caught investigators' attention is that there was
• 7:37
  Speaker 7: retail packaged kratom near the students at both of the
• 7:42
  Speaker 7: death scenes.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: So Randy Kessler joining us, veteran trial lawyer out of Atlanta,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Emory Law School professor, former chair of the ABA Family
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Law Section, and author of Divorce, Protect Yourself, Your Kids,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: and Your Future. Randy, thank you for being with us tonight.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: While they're not coming out and stating what is the
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: COD cause of death or MOD manner of death, it's
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: too much of a coincidence that Kratom is at both scenes.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: In my world, there is no coincidence in criminal law,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Randy Kessler.
• 8:16
  Speaker 8: Right, but coincidence is not equal conviction. And as we know,
• 8:20
  Speaker 8: we want to find the culprit. We want to find
• 8:22
  Speaker 8: what happened. We want to find who's responsible.
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: But we have to be careful.
• 8:25
  Speaker 8: We jump to conclusions and all of a sudden, A
• 8:27
  Speaker 8: lot of people might get caught up in an investigation
• 8:30
  Speaker 8: that are not guilty. It does smell, feel, taste like
• 8:33
  Speaker 8: this has something or maybe everything to do with it.
• 8:35
  Speaker 8: But so far, they've not determined the cause of death.
• 8:38
  Speaker 8: The toxicology report has not been done. We need to
• 8:41
  Speaker 8: know what was the actual cause of death. It was
• 8:44
  Speaker 8: a coincidence, and you're exactly right. But you wouldn't walk
• 8:46
  Speaker 8: into court simply based on a coincidence and ask the
• 8:49
  Speaker 8: jury for conviction.
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: We've got to get more. The evidence has to be
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: more further developed.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: I don't believe we're at that stage yet. We don't
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: even have the autopsy reports on these two young boys.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: But to say jump to conclusions, I don't even know
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: what you're saying. Are you just like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: Because they're dead, same campus, within a mile of each other,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: and there's Kratom on both scenes, and you think I'm
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: jumping to a conclusion. Did I hear that?
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: No, I said nothing.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I did hear it, and you said it.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: Well, you're a prosecutor.
• 9:23
  Speaker 8: I said it smells like, feels like, tastes like. Yes,
• 9:25
  Speaker 8: it looks like that was the cause, but that's not
• 9:28
  Speaker 8: the proof we need in court.
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: So you're right.
• 9:29
  Speaker 8: We're not in court yet, which is why you've conceded
• 9:32
  Speaker 8: that this is not a convictable situation yet. We need
• 9:35
  Speaker 8: to have the evidence. We don't know what killed them
• 9:38
  Speaker 8: according to a toxicology report. We don't know how they died.
• 9:41
  Speaker 8: It is a coincidence. It's a very strong coincidence. But again, yes,
• 9:46
  Speaker 8: it does seem from a lay point of view, from
• 9:47
  Speaker 8: a conversational point of view, like that's what happened. But
• 9:51
  Speaker 8: when we get to a court of law, and that's
• 9:52
  Speaker 8: why I think you have me on here as a lawyer,
• 9:54
  Speaker 8: we don't have enough to convict anybody yet, in my opinion.
• 9:57
  Speaker 9: I absolutely would say all messes up.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: A safe school. We're a classy place.
• 10:02
  Speaker 9: Stuff like this doesn't happen often. We don't have deaths
• 10:06
  Speaker 9: on campus like this. That's why it's so shocking. And
• 10:11
  Speaker 9: you come here, you'll see that it's a great town
• 10:14
  Speaker 9: filled with really good people and It's terrible when something
• 10:21
  Speaker 9: hits this community like this because it just brings us
• 10:24
  Speaker 9: all down because we're not used to it.
• 10:26
  Speaker 7: You might think you're buying this in the store and
• 10:29
  Speaker 7: it says it only has this potency, but the thing
• 10:32
  Speaker 7: is that it's not regulated.
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: People can develop real addiction to it.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: We're concerned that it's coming from a common source and
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: if it did result in the death of these two
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: young individuals, we want to make sure that we identify
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: that source. We're not even sure that both of them
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: were overdosed.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Everybody's so afraid to call it what it is. It
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: looks like a duck. It walks like a duck. It
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: quacks like a duck. Two dead teens and Kratom next
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: to them. That's from Fox KUSA and CBS. Straight out
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: to special guests joining us tonight.
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: Dr.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Ernest Scioto, toxicologist, physician, biomedical engineer. He has multiple degrees
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: from both Oxford and Harvard universities. former medical director, manager,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: medical public health services, city of Detroit. Never a lack
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: of business there. And author of Toxic Tort Medical and
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Legal Elements. Okay, you're way over the top. But Dr.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Ernest Scioto, what is kratom? Why are two young boys
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: found dead and cold? College students at Ole Miss. Why
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: is this happening?
• 11:48
  Speaker 10: Well, first off, kratom is a plant in Southeast Asia.
• 11:54
  Speaker 10: It's been used for many years, for centuries, as a
• 11:58
  Speaker 10: herbal medicine. It does have a chemical in it that
• 12:04
  Speaker 10: acts as an opiate, as a partial opiate material. There's
• 12:10
  Speaker 10: a claim that it can cause stimulant effects. It can
• 12:14
  Speaker 10: cause adverse health effects. It can cause weight loss, anxiety, constipation.
• 12:23
  Speaker 10: But for it to cause by itself, death is very,
• 12:28
  Speaker 10: very unusual. It can cause respiratory depression. So if it
• 12:34
  Speaker 10: is involved in death, it's usually worse combined with another
• 12:37
  Speaker 10: respiratory depressant. Fentanyl is one example, or other opiates, or
• 12:45
  Speaker 10: even benzodiazepines, things like Valium, or alcohol. So when you
• 12:49
  Speaker 10: have a combination of other respiratory depressants, people can die
• 12:54
  Speaker 10: because they stop breathing. But in and of itself, as
• 12:59
  Speaker 10: a cause of death alone, it is very rare.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Let me see those symptoms again that you just had
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: up on the screen because Dr. Ernest Scioto, of course,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: you're the MD, I'm just a JD, but seizures, coma,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: high blood pressure, arrhythmia, abnormal heartbeat, overdose, liver problems. Put
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: them up, please. Dr. Scioto, I'm not quite sure how,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: if kratom can cause all of that. You're saying, oh,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: you don't die of it by itself. A coma?
• 13:31
  Speaker 10: It's a fact. Well, a coma, I mean, a coma,
• 13:37
  Speaker 10: how long are you taking it? Is it something that
• 13:39
  Speaker 10: builds up over time? Liver disease, same thing. But to
• 13:44
  Speaker 10: cause acute death, acutely due to an overdose, no, it
• 13:50
  Speaker 10: is rare. So somebody put that out, I'll disagree with it.
• 13:54
  Speaker 10: I'd just say the likelihood that Creighton was the only
• 13:59
  Speaker 10: cause of the deaths in this matter is low. Now,
• 14:03
  Speaker 10: what else could happen? There's a lot of things that
• 14:05
  Speaker 10: could have happened. For example, there's about 28,000 students on
• 14:08
  Speaker 10: the campus of Ole Miss. If you have 28,000 students, one,
• 14:15
  Speaker 10: there could be other involvement, fentanyl death. We don't know
• 14:19
  Speaker 10: the toxicology yet. Alcohol, even alcohol is in enough amount
• 14:25
  Speaker 10: is deadly. But also just say congenital heart disease. Maybe
• 14:31
  Speaker 10: these kids had enlarged hearts. Enlarged hearts, you can have
• 14:35
  Speaker 10: a fatal arrhythmia.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Please put him up. Who murdered Dr. Ernest Liotto and
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: is wearing his skin? You're actually stating that maybe they
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: had a heart ailment? Vanessa Walsh, how old are these
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: two students?
• 14:49
  Speaker 7: 18 and 20. 18 and 20 years old.
• 14:55
  Speaker 10: Okay.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Dr. Shayoto.
• 14:57
  Speaker 10: Your parade.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: The parents have spoken. Nobody said anything about heart enlargement
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: or congenital heart problems or lung problems. And 233 deaths,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: 233 from Kratom in the U.S.
• 15:16
  Speaker 7: Alone.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Now, you stated that this comes from Asia. Why is
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: it here and in gas stations?
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: I really don't know.
• 15:25
  Speaker 10: I mean, it's sold. I don't think it's a good
• 15:29
  Speaker 10: idea for people to buy it. I don't think it's
• 15:31
  Speaker 10: a good idea for it to be sold. Please put Dr.
• 15:35
  Speaker 10: Scioto up.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, Dr. Chiodo, I know you're the toxicologist. You're the physician.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: You're the biomedical engineer. You're also a lawyer. You went
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: to Oxford. You went to Harvard. I did not. You're
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: clearly much smarter than everybody on the panel put together.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: But is your advice, you actually said, I don't think
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: people should use it.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that's true.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Amen, brother. But I was expecting a little more scientific
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: data from you than, hey, guys, I don't think you
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: should use this. Hit me, doctor. What is this stuff?
• 16:09
  Speaker 10: It isn't arsenic. It isn't cyanide. It's something that is really,
• 16:16
  Speaker 10: it's an herbal material that really, I don't think, the
• 16:22
  Speaker 10: FDA has investigated it. It has not found that it
• 16:26
  Speaker 10: has any particular... benefit from a medical standpoint or health standpoint.
• 16:32
  Speaker 10: And it has some safety concerns, but the likelihood that.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: It's just like heroin. I don't care what you're doing
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia. Not my problem. This is my problem.
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: No.
• 16:49
  Speaker 10: First off, we're putting the cart in front of the horse.
• 16:52
  Speaker 10: When we see the autopsy results... When we see the
• 16:59
  Speaker 10: toxicology results, we'll know more. But in the meantime, just
• 17:03
  Speaker 10: as our fellow lawyer, the law school professor for memory said, hey, coincidence.
• 17:10
  Speaker 10: Until you show it isn't just coincidence that these kids
• 17:13
  Speaker 10: both had kratom by them when they were found dead,
• 17:18
  Speaker 10: we're just speculating.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Guys, that video of Aiden in the grocery cart that
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: we keep showing you, And doing the water bucket challenge,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: the ice bucket challenge. That's where our friend is over
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: at Scripps. Look at him. He should be in classes
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: right now. He should be in the library. He should
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: be at the frat house. He should be having a pizza.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Both of them. They're dead. Their parents are trying to
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: figure out what to do next. I want to go
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: back to Dr. Ernest Chiodo. If this is probably not
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: the cause of death, why is it banned in 10 states?
• 18:04
  Speaker 10: Because it's not shown to have any beneficial effect, and
• 18:09
  Speaker 10: there are some adverse health effects. But sudden death due
• 18:13
  Speaker 10: to overdose, sudden death is rarely reported. Now, again, if
• 18:22
  Speaker 10: you start mixing it with other respiratory depressants, Then you
• 18:27
  Speaker 10: can have a problem. So once the autopsy result comes back,
• 18:32
  Speaker 10: to make sure these kids don't have congenital, that is,
• 18:36
  Speaker 10: they wouldn't know that they had it.
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: Oh, my goodness.
• 18:37
  Speaker 10: Born with an enlarged heart.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: I need to see him. This guy is a renowned toxicologist, physician,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: biomedical engineer, for Pete's sake. That's what my son is studying.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: And lawyer, Oxford, Harvard. And you're still on the enlarged heart.
• 18:53
  Speaker 10: Until we know that he doesn't have it, then we
• 18:57
  Speaker 10: can't rule that out. That is a cause of death
• 19:00
  Speaker 10: in young people. Okay, so I hate to tell you,
• 19:04
  Speaker 10: those are the facts. So until we see the autopsy
• 19:08
  Speaker 10: result and see that the heart is not enlarged, we
• 19:12
  Speaker 10: can't rule it out. So we'll wait for the autopsy result.
• 19:14
  Speaker 10: Same thing with the toxicology. When we see the toxicology
• 19:19
  Speaker 10: result and see that there are no other substances involved, fentanyl, Opiates,
• 19:27
  Speaker 10: other opiates, benzodiazepines, alcohol, we can't rule it out.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: And by the way, if it is a.
• 19:37
  Speaker 10: Cardiac event, even if he doesn't have an enlarged heart,
• 19:43
  Speaker 10: you have cardiac events. And again, there's nothing you can't
• 19:45
  Speaker 10: do an autopsy and see an electrical event that could
• 19:49
  Speaker 10: have caused the death so we're putting the heart the
• 19:52
  Speaker 10: cart before the horse when the autopsy results come out
• 19:57
  Speaker 10: when the toxicology results come out then we'll know more
• 20:00
  Speaker 10: but in the meantime it could just be simply coincidental
• 20:06
  Speaker 10: 28,000 students two students dying on the campus I'm time
• 20:10
  Speaker 10: after a football game.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: My ears are bleeding. My ears are bleeding. It's banned
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: in 10 states. And Dr. Scioto, the nickname, the moniker,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: the street name is gas station heroin. Oh, okay.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: Wait, wait.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Okay. Kessler, you better help Scioto because he just fixed
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: his mouth to say, well, it's legal in 40.
• 20:36
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: You know what, Nancy?
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: That makes it okay? Just because it's being done doesn't
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: mean it should be done. And it's in freaking gas stations.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: My twins can go and get this. Listen to this.
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: It's from Southeast Asia. Why is it here? Somebody grinds
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: up leaves from a tropical evergreen tree.
• 21:01
  Speaker 10: What? Okay.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Psychoactive compounds. It can produce stimulant and opioid-like effects. And
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: its chemical compounds bind to the brain's opioid receptor. And
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: when I hear the word opioid, that's really all I
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: need to hear. And the defense is, hey, all these
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: gas agents are going to hire Shiodo as their expert.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: Because his defense is, eh, it's a coincidence. Two dead
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: on one campus within, what, 48 hours? Tell that to
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: the boys' parents. A coinkydink. Don't worry about it. Gas
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: station heroin? My rear end. I am not going to
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: be happy until we find who supplied it, find the
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: gas station or wherever they got it, and take them down.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: I don't want to even see the station. I want
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: it to be rubble. Okay, Randy, give it your best shot.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Help Chiado out. Throw him a bone.
• 22:09
  Speaker 8: I think Kratom is underexplored, and we need to cover it.
• 22:11
  Speaker 8: I'm glad you're covering it. I'm glad we're going to investigate. But,
• 22:13
  Speaker 8: you know, there are parents all over the country saying,
• 22:15
  Speaker 8: who gave my child alcohol? Alcohol is illegal in every
• 22:18
  Speaker 8: state up until a certain age, yet then it's illegal.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: Alcohol, if you put the warnings up on the screen
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: for what alcohol can do to you.
• 22:25
  Speaker 8: I guess they're very similar or sometimes even worse, depending
• 22:28
  Speaker 8: on the quantity, when it was used, how it was used,
• 22:31
  Speaker 8: in conjunction with what.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: So I'm not saying Kratom is not the quality.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Are you actually comparing Kratom to a what? A Mic Ultra?
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Are you serious? A White Claw?
• 22:42
  Speaker 8: No, but to a couple bottles of vodka where kids
• 22:44
  Speaker 8: drink bottles of vodka.
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: You just did it.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Did he just compare it to alcohol, Jackie?
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: She's nodding her head yes. Yes, you did. Why every
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: time is there a dangerous drug you try to compare
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: it to liquor?
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: Ask the doctor. I bet you I'm right. I bet
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: you I'm right. Alcohol is terrible.
• 23:00
  Speaker 8: Ask him what?
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: If alcohol can be as bad or worse than Kratom.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: That's where we are right now. Alcohol is terrible. That's
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: what you've got to say. Tell me how I can
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: bring down the gas station. That's all I want to
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: hear from you. When your mouth opens, that's what I
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: want to hear. Come out.
• 23:14
  Speaker 8: I want to have a bring down people that over
• 23:16
  Speaker 8: serve alcohol, but give alcohol to minors that let out.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: That is my, I can't hear it. My ears are now.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: There's no blood left. Vanessa Walsh. Help me. Help me. Uh,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: They didn't find drug paraphernalia. They didn't find a bong.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: They didn't find a needle. They didn't find fentanyl. And please,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: everyone stop saying fentanyl. It's not fentanyl. It's fentanyl. None
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: of that was found. What was found is kratom. And
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: isn't it true? You can get it at a local
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: gas station. It's so like those horrible little bottles of ginseng.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: What is that? That said, students buy it. And I
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: believe one of the effects, I'm going to go out
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: on a limb and take my chances and ask Yodo this.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I think that it can act as a stimulant to Vanessa.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: But I want to hear some more about the facts
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: surrounding the discovery of these bodies. Do we know how
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: long they have been dead? I want to find out
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: what they were doing the night before where they went. Because,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: you know, you can look on your iPhone and see
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: everywhere that you've been with your phone. You know, they
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: both had their phones. Did they go to the same
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: gas station? Did they go to the same freak one
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: floor below them that has Kratom? I want to find
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: out if they're just too close together in proximity and time.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: That is not a coincidence, Vanessa. Just tell me everything
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 24:41
  Speaker 7: So those are some of the biggest unanswered questions. But
• 24:43
  Speaker 7: what's important here is we don't know a lot about
• 24:46
  Speaker 7: the retail package Kratom that was found. And what's not
• 24:50
  Speaker 7: being mentioned is we don't know if it was traditional Kratom.
• 24:52
  Speaker 7: or if it was actually one of these newer, much
• 24:55
  Speaker 7: stronger products like the Kratom 7-OH that is much more
• 24:59
  Speaker 7: dangerous than traditional Kratom. And I think what's important here
• 25:03
  Speaker 7: for these two students' deaths is that Kratom has been
• 25:06
  Speaker 7: banned in Oxford and in Lafayette County since 2019. So
• 25:11
  Speaker 7: one of the big questions here is, did these kids
• 25:13
  Speaker 7: get it locally? And if they did, how were they
• 25:17
  Speaker 7: able to obtain it since it's been banned for the
• 25:19
  Speaker 7: past seven years?
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: I guess the same way people get pot and crack
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: and fentanyl, the whole shebang. Where do they get it?
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: A dealer.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: But this is actually sold in gas stations. I'm just
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: wondering how seriously L.E.
• 25:39
  Speaker 10: Took.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, law enforcement's dealing with street shootings and murders
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: and dope lords. Do they really have time to trot
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: down to the Quick Trip or the 7-Eleven to check
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: for kratom at Okay, hold on. Dr. Bethany wants in.
• 25:56
  Speaker 7: Dr.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Bethany, please help me. Please save me from Randy Kessler.
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: Nancy, let me break it down for you. Kratom is
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: actually making its way into my Beverly Hills office. It
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: is not banned at the federal level. It targets youth
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: because it comes in these neat little packages that confuse
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: the purchaser into thinking that it's FDA approved. And it
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: is not. It comes in gummies, powders, liquids, teas.
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: Pills.
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: And what happens with these students is when you take Kratom,
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: it initially has that stimulant effect. So let's say you're
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: this great A-plus student. You want to stay up all night.
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: You want to study. You want to get a good grade.
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: What are you going to try to get? Kratom. You're
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: going to go to the local tobacco shop, vape shop,
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: gas station, and try to get a stimulant. And initially,
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: it's similar to Adderall. But what happens is that at
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: higher doses, higher concentrations, it becomes a sedative. So Nancy,
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: think about it. You are a great college student. You
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: want to stay up. You think, oh, I'll take more
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: and more because I'll be able to study till 5 a.m.
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: But then when it builds up in the system, it
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: starts to suppress your breathing, aka Heath Ledger, right? And
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: then if that student goes to a party and they
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: mix alcohol, it becomes deadly. because the breathing is further suppressed.
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: And here's what's worse, Nancy, kratom builds up in the
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: system over time. So let's say the student takes it
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: over weeks or months, all of a sudden, bam, they
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: can just have a negative effect. And Nancy, these single
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: use death drugs, kratom is one of those. It is
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: like a fentanyl. And in 13% of all cases, when
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: somebody uses kratom, there is some type of adverse effect.
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: It is an epidemic. And one more thing, you know, Suboxone,
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: you give it to patients who are trying to withdraw
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: from heroin or from opioids, some other type of opium,
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: you give them Suboxone. Now Suboxone is being prescribed for
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: people who are addicted to Kratom because it works on
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: the opioid receptors. So this is our next opioid epidemic.
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: And sadly, it's not being grown in some plantation somewhere
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: in East Asia. It's now being made in a lab
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: and it's being synthetically manufactured.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: You know it's bad when the American Kratom Association. Yes,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: there is one. Why don't we have an American Crack
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Cocaine Association? Well, OK, the American Kratom Association working to
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: keep Kratom consumers safe. Okay, why would you even put
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: something on the market where its main advocate is working
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: to keep it safe? Right now, the Connors and Gas
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Station Heroin Act, a day late and a dollar short,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: proposed federal legislation aimed at banning and removing this particular item.
• 29:14
  Speaker 8: Why?
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Because A young man, Connor Neelaman, died from a 7-0-H overdose.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Marketed his Kratom at a Texas vape shop. Straight out
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: to Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. I'm pretty sure
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: we know where this deadly Kratom came from. Tell me. Nancy.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: After the deaths of Aiden and Robert, we've got a
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: raid that takes place at Puff's Vape Tobacco and Beer
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Store in Oxford, Mississippi. The narcotics raid led to the
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: arrest of two employees, Yahweh Muhammad Musleh, who's 51, and
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Islam Muhammad, 18, both working at this Puffs vape, tobacco,
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: and beer store. The owner of the store, a guy
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: who still owns it, Nancy, a mayor, Al-Aldi, was indicted
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: on narcotics trafficking charges and fled the country. Now, this
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: recent arrest, while they were at the raid, 500 units
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: of kratom, THC cartridges, gummies, other suspected narcotics as well.
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: They have to be tested.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Now, Nancy, one thing I want to point out, Kratom
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: is legal in Englewood, Colorado and Atlanta, Georgia, where both
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: victims originated. Aiden is from Colorado. Robert is from Atlanta.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Kratom legal in those places, but has not been legal
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: in Oxford, Mississippi in years.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: There it is, Vanessa Walsh. Puffs. as in Puff the
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Magic Dragon, as in a puff, a vape, tobacco and
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: beer store, and poisonous kratom, allegedly. What can you tell
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: me about that place, Vanessa?
• 31:08
  Speaker 7: Well, when investigators did rate it, they seized over 500
• 31:12
  Speaker 7: units of kratom, THC products, and some other suspected narcotics.
• 31:18
  Speaker 7: And of course, two of the employees were arrested, a
• 31:20
  Speaker 7: 51-year-old and an 18-year-old, and both of them were booked
• 31:24
  Speaker 7: on charges of possession of a controlled substance with intent
• 31:27
  Speaker 7: to distribute. And yeah, the big question there is how
• 31:31
  Speaker 7: they were even in operation, because as Dave mentioned, the
• 31:33
  Speaker 7: owner had already been brought up with narcotic charges in
• 31:36
  Speaker 7: 2022 and fled the country. So that's another big question
• 31:40
  Speaker 7: in this investigation.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: So he fled the country, Vanessa, and then came.
• 31:45
  Speaker 7: Back I'm unaware if he came back, but the business
• 31:49
  Speaker 7: still kept operating business as usual.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: So, Dave Mack, the owner is still on the lam,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: so these are employees that were arrested?
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: Correct.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: And the big part about this, Nancy, is that investigators
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: in Oxford, Mississippi, have been aware of this store, Puff's Vape, Tobacco,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: and Beer store, for some time for this illegal activity.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: And the raid happened very quickly after the two deaths.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: They all came inside and they were in there for hours.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: They closed down the whole place.
• 32:23
  Speaker 10: I haven't heard much about Kratom ever.
• 32:26
  Speaker 6: As far as I knew, it was not a substance
• 32:28
  Speaker 6: that college students or anyone I've ever been involved with
• 32:31
  Speaker 6: took part in recreationally or as some way to soothe
• 32:34
  Speaker 6: any pains. So I was very, very surprised to hear
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: that it was possibly the source of some.
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: Of these overdoses.
• 32:40
  Speaker 6: Terrible, because you could go in like looking for something
• 32:43
  Speaker 6: that You may think it's good and it can actually
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: kill you.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: All the drugs going around. It's really bad.
• 32:48
  Speaker 10: I've seen how it affects loved ones back home and
• 32:51
  Speaker 10: even here.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: I was shocked.
• 32:53
  Speaker 7: It's like my stomach dropped.
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: When I seen it, I was just like, that's crazy.
• 32:57
  Speaker 10: We were just worried.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Everyone's always buying something.
• 32:59
  Speaker 10: You never know what's actually in anything anymore. And it
• 33:02
  Speaker 10: was just out of nowhere.
• 33:03
  Speaker 11: People go to the games and they think they've got
• 33:05
  Speaker 11: to do all this drinking and all this partying and
• 33:08
  Speaker 11: all this taking things and trying things. And they're young
• 33:12
  Speaker 11: and nothing's going to hurt them. That's not the way
• 33:15
  Speaker 11: it is. And here's proof of it. And I hate
• 33:16
  Speaker 11: it for the young people and for their families.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: That's not the way it is. For my friends at Fox, NBC, WTVA,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: the parents devastated.
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: There were no labeling instructions whatsoever on them, nor on
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: their website.
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: And so it was a lethal dose. I miss them
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: every moment of every day.
• 33:36
  Speaker 12: Micah was not taking this for a long period of time.
• 33:40
  Speaker 12: This was one time. Unfortunately, it took his life. You
• 33:44
  Speaker 12: can die from it taking it one time. It's sad.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: It's pitiful.
• 33:49
  Speaker 13: She had EDS, but she was taking it for pain relief.
• 33:53
  Speaker 13: She wanted to avoid opiates, so she turned to opiates.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: A natural remedy.
• 33:59
  Speaker 13: And that's why she had started taking Kratom for her
• 34:02
  Speaker 13: to relieve pain from her UDS. But she didn't know
• 34:04
  Speaker 13: the dangers of Kratom.
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: We do need to wait for any results.
• 34:10
  Speaker 13: But I also agree that Kratom was found on the
• 34:12
  Speaker 13: scene of two of them and that's alarming. My daughter
• 34:16
  Speaker 13: wasn't taking extracts or 708. She was taking the pure
• 34:19
  Speaker 13: Kratom powder.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: From our friends at Fox. So Randy Kessler says, You're
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: still saying you think it's just a coincidence. They were found.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: It wasn't 48 hours. They were found within hours of
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: each other. Same campus, same Kratom in their vicinity.
• 34:42
  Speaker 8: No, I'm not saying it's just a coincidence. I think
• 34:44
  Speaker 8: it's a very, very strong coincidence. And it's very telling.
• 34:47
  Speaker 8: But we can't convict until we get better proof. That's
• 34:50
  Speaker 8: all I'm saying. I think it's great that we're exposing this.
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: They were covering it. They were investigating it.
• 34:55
  Speaker 8: I think it's good that there are these strong clues
• 34:57
  Speaker 8: that these things in common in both deaths may point
• 35:00
  Speaker 8: to the culprit and what happened and may prevent further deaths.
• 35:03
  Speaker 8: But we do not have enough to convict until we
• 35:06
  Speaker 8: know the cause of death is determined by the toxicologist
• 35:08
  Speaker 8: and the autopsy. That's my point.
• 35:10
  Speaker 7: Dr.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Bethany?
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: Parents, tell your kids not to buy anything unless it's
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: FDA approved. Yes, it's good that Randy Kessler is saying
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: to wait for the toxicology and this is being covered
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: and all of that. Nancy, this is a single case. Use, death, drug.
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: Just like fentanyl. No different.
• 35:30
  Speaker 10: Dr.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Scietto?
• 35:32
  Speaker 10: All I can say is right until we get the
• 35:34
  Speaker 10: autopsy result, until we get the toxicology result, we're just speculating.
• 35:39
  Speaker 10: And yes, I agree. This stuff probably shouldn't be sold. Yes,
• 35:43
  Speaker 10: I agree with that. Don't take it. Don't take drugs.
• 35:47
  Speaker 10: Don't take pills that you're not prescribed by your physician.
• 35:51
  Speaker 10: And don't drink too much alcohol. Because they all can
• 35:55
  Speaker 10: be harmful and kill you. Particularly when you're a young person,
• 35:58
  Speaker 10: you're out at college, you're out of the house for
• 36:02
  Speaker 10: the first time.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: It's OTC. It's over the counter.
• 36:07
  Speaker 10: Don't buy it. Don't buy energy drinks. You have too
• 36:13
  Speaker 10: much energy drinks.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: How about don't sell it? It's too dangerous. Ask the 233,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: now 235 families where their child died from Kratom-related usage.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: That's what I know.
• 36:29
  Speaker 10: You assume that they died from it. You assume they
• 36:34
  Speaker 10: died from it. Yes, I am saying do not take
• 36:37
  Speaker 10: this stuff. It has not been shown to be safe.
• 36:40
  Speaker 10: Don't buy it. And you know what? If you're in
• 36:43
  Speaker 10: the business of selling it, you probably should stop selling
• 36:45
  Speaker 10: it too because you're going to end up with all
• 36:46
  Speaker 10: sorts of legal problems. But until we find out what
• 36:50
  Speaker 10: the autopsy results And the toxicology result on these two
• 36:54
  Speaker 10: young men, and this is very tragic that they died.
• 36:56
  Speaker 10: But until we find out why they died, we're just
• 37:00
  Speaker 10: speculating when we're saying it was due to kratom.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: You think we're speculating. Well, okay. Then I guess we
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: should burn down the CDC too. Because they're the ones
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: that gave me the information. 233 deaths. 233 deaths died
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: from Kratom use.
• 37:28
  Speaker 10: How many have died from alcohol use? How much from
• 37:32
  Speaker 10: legal marijuana?
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Not my question. Why do you and Kessler hide behind
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: a bottle of booze? I'm talking about Kratom tonight. You
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: said it's just speculation. The CDC says 233 dead. Okay,
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: you know what? I know you're not going to admit it.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: But I'm siding with the CDC. I'm riding with them tonight.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything regarding this case,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: please dial 662-234-8477. 662-234-8477. We remember American hero officer Robert Potter,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: New Mexico police, 41, passed away in the line of
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: duty after seven years leaving behind a wife, Joanne and
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: son Matthew, American hero officer Robert Potter. Thank you to
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: our guests, but especially to you for being with us.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.