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So Who Cares Anyway E36 The Power of Art at Work; Caring for those who care · SoWhoCaresAnyway

• 0:05
  Hi, I'm Ruth Germaine, and this is, so Who Cares? Anyway, a podcast shaped by my deep curiosity about who cares, what do they care about, what do they do, and why does it matter? My aspiration is to build a community that listens with intention.
• 0:20
  And explores care from every angle from the North Yorkshire malls to behind clinical doors.
• 0:27
  Each episode invites people to share their stories, their ideas, and talk about what matters to them.
• 0:34
  Together we reimagine what care could be and how we might shape health and wellbeing through the assets, values, and the lived wisdom of our communities.
• 0:44
  And why does it matter? Because for too long, health and care have been treated as things to be delivered, often depleting systems and the people around them, and it's time to rewrite the narrative to center everyone as a contributor, not just a recipient, to offer joy, hope, and meaningful belonging.
• 1:04
  To invite each of us to shape the future of health and wellbeing with courage, with creativity, and with care.
• 1:12
  So who cares.
• 1:13
  Anyway, hi, it's Ruth here, and in this episode I'm joined by two brilliant guests.
• 1:20
  The first one is Claire O'Donohue.
• 1:22
  Claire and I, um, were Darcy fellows together back in 2019, and Claire is an art psychotherapist and I really wanted to have somebody from one of the allied health professionals that people didn't understand or know so well.
• 1:34
  So I was excited when Claire put something up on LinkedIn about some of the work she'd been doing and got in touch and said, Claire.
• 1:40
  I'd love to have you on my podcast, but Claire said I can't come on my own.
• 1:44
  I need to have Sophia with me.
• 1:46
  And Sophia is a doctor and a psychiatry registrar.
• 1:50
  One of the things that really came through in this episode is Claire and Sophia were talking about how they were told you've got a million other things to do, but actually they stood their ground and said, brains need time to relax too.
• 2:01
  So together she and Sophia.
• 2:03
  Created something powerful, which is a way for clinicians to take off their doctor's hats, in this case doctors, but it could be anybody, and be a bit childlike again, and use art to support their emotional health.
• 2:16
  So what they've done doesn't just help doctors.
• 2:18
  It changes the way people are cared for.
• 2:20
  It's moving, it's hopeful, and I think it's something everybody can learn on.
• 2:24
  So be creative and hope you enjoy.
• 2:29
  Hi, and welcome to this next episode of So Who Cares.
• 2:31
  Anyway, and today I'm really delighted.
• 2:33
  I've got two guests with me and I'm going to introduce you, first of all to Claire.
• 2:37
  I've known Claire since 2019, um, and Claire is an art therapist and, um.
• 2:44
  I'm gonna ask Claire to introduce herself a little bit further in a moment, but we've done a Darcy Fellowship program a few years ago.
• 2:51
  We do, yeah.
• 2:51
  So, which is how we know each other.
• 2:53
  Um, and I think I've spoken a little bit about the Darcy program on this podcast before.
• 2:57
  So unless it comes up, I won't go into detail.
• 3:00
  And then I also have SIA and Safia as a doctor within the, um, cams.
• 3:04
  So the registrar, and that's the children's mental health.
• 3:08
  Um, so, so yeah, I'll come to s afterwards to give it a bit of an introduction.
• 3:13
  So Claire, over to you first of all, if that's okay, please.
• 3:16
  So, hi Ruth.
• 3:17
  Thank you so much for inviting me, uh, to your show.
• 3:20
  It's a real pleasure to be here and happy New Year.
• 3:22
  Um, I'm, uh, Claire o Donahue.
• 3:25
  I'm a senior art psychotherapist at Bium Borders Partnership Trust.
• 3:30
  I also work, um, as a freelance consultant, arts, like a therapy consultant.
• 3:34
  Uh, providing treatments and also, um, wellbeing groups to people.
• 3:40
  Um, and, uh, I've been working in the NHS for about 15 years.
• 3:48
  A long time and I love my job.
• 3:50
  Absolutely love it.
• 3:51
  Wonderful.
• 3:52
  That's really nice to hear and very important.
• 3:54
  So thank you Claire and Sia, if you would introduce yourself please.
• 3:58
  Hi Ruth.
• 3:59
  Thank you also for having me on today.
• 4:01
  I'm so excited to have this conversation with yourself and Claire.
• 4:05
  So, um, I'm a Cams registrar.
• 4:08
  Which is a psychiatry resident doctor specializing in child and adolescent psychiatry.
• 4:14
  Um, so prior to this, I did general psychiatry.
• 4:17
  Uh, I've been a doctor since 2015.
• 4:20
  Um, and I met Claire uh, a couple of years ago whilst I was doing a more generic psychiatry job.
• 4:28
  At, sorry.
• 4:29
  And Borders.
• 4:29
  I currently work at Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children.
• 4:33
  So thank you.
• 4:34
  That's, um, really nice to hear and you've both given your background, so, but what I want to do is just clarify a little bit around your role.
• 4:41
  So I'm gonna come to you, Claire, first of all, because you've mentioned, and I said at the beginning that you are an art psychotherapist, but I think that's something that people probably aren't so familiar with.
• 4:50
  So I wonder if you could just give a little bit more, more detail about.
• 4:53
  What that role is placed and what that entails.
• 4:56
  So art psychotherapy is an allied health profession.
• 4:59
  It's also specialist psychology.
• 5:01
  Um, it's, um, basically we provide, um, treatment to all ages, um, in all different settings.
• 5:08
  Um.
• 5:09
  But in my role, I'm, uh, work for Complex Trauma Pathway.
• 5:13
  Um, so we have an art therapy service, which incorporates music therapy and drama therapy.
• 5:19
  Um, and I'm an art therapist with a specialism in trauma, complex trauma.
• 5:24
  And basically where we sit in a mental health service is at the very.
• 5:28
  Of the, all the, the kind of initial frontline treatments.
• 5:32
  So most people, if they have a mental health difficulty, they will get access to their GP and they'll go through, um, various treatments.
• 5:40
  It could be antidepressants, it could be, um, formal treatments like CBT or Mind Matters.
• 5:46
  And then, um, if things are still, um.
• 5:50
  Troubling or there are challenges still exist or someone has got complex trauma, then they're more likely to be referred to myself, um, or another art therapist, like a music therapist or drama therapist, um, for, um, specialized psychological treatments.
• 6:06
  Thank you.
• 6:07
  That's really helpful.
• 6:08
  And I think a bit more about what you do will come out as you and Safia start to talk about the work that you've been doing later on, Safia.
• 6:15
  I wonder if you could just, you spoke about that you were in a more, I think you called it a generalized role area, Ron, so I wonder if you could just give a look more, more detail about, um.
• 6:24
  The work that you were doing, because I think that was when this project first started.
• 6:27
  So if you could explain that a bit more please.
• 6:30
  So, um, how psychiatry training works is you spend the first three years doing triangle or rotating through various subspecialties in psychiatry, including general, adult, old age child, and various other ones you have the option to pursue.
• 6:46
  Um, so at the time around, coming up to two years ago now, I was just coming into my.
• 6:53
  Rotation in medical psychotherapy, which is a specialty of psychiatry, and they're all six months long each rotation.
• 7:00
  And, uh, that's the team psychotherapy is the team under which Claire's art therapy team sit.
• 7:07
  So we had the opportunity to meet at the time since I was joining the medical psychotherapy team, um, and that, that's when we connected.
• 7:14
  So we had a, a really lovely meeting actually.
• 7:19
  A coffee and we were just chatting and Sia just asked me randomly what I, I did and I explained to her about art therapy.
• 7:27
  Um, I always explain with a lot of excitement, I never get bored of explaining about art therapy.
• 7:33
  And I think maybe you might have picked up on that, SIA.
• 7:36
  Yeah, definitely.
• 7:36
  But I was explaining, I was.
• 7:41
  Uh, uh, s article, art Therapy is an, and like you picked up on Ruth, it's really difficult to explain.
• 7:47
  Um, but basically, um, art therapy is just, it's a wonderful, um, profession to be in.
• 7:54
  It's, um, where you get to, um, use art, um, and where you get to use art as well as talking, or some cases not talking to help.
• 8:05
  People to find themselves, find meaning, find purpose in their life, have more self understanding, self-awareness.
• 8:13
  Um, I know that was asking at the time whether you had to be good at art to do it, and I explained that that wasn't the case.
• 8:20
  Anyone can do it.
• 8:21
  And if you think about like 3-year-old children or even younger, I mean, any kids really, they love art.
• 8:28
  That's our human natural ability is, is to, you know, use art.
• 8:33
  And, um, so you don't have to be good at art to do art therapy.
• 8:36
  Um, but it provides an opportunity to help people to see themselves in a really meaningful way that brings on healing.
• 8:45
  And I was explaining to Safia at the time of the story of, you know, one of the many groups I've run in the past.
• 8:51
  Um, in this case it was for a drug and alcohol unit and how, um.
• 8:57
  I was sat with 15 people, um, who were very nervous and didn't know each other at all well, including myself.
• 9:04
  Um, we or everyone was asked to do some art and, um, everyone was asked then to present their art, but in an anonymous way.
• 9:13
  So we'd have each person who's in the group, um, looking at a piece of art.
• 9:17
  And the idea was the artist did not say who they were.
• 9:21
  So anyway, um, the story is, there was one lady in particular who was very frightened, bless her.
• 9:26
  She had been, um, brought onto the ward, um, as a heroin addict.
• 9:32
  Um, and, uh, she was a, a street worker too, and she was very traumatized and very, very nervous of going into this group.
• 9:41
  But she did create some art and.
• 9:44
  I knew what the art was and possibly everyone else did as well.
• 9:47
  But everyone was looking at the art together and, and outcomes.
• 9:51
  Her art, which is a tiny little, um, like plaster.
• 9:55
  It was made of plaster scene, but like a little plaster scene urn with a little fetus inside, but there was a lid on it.
• 10:01
  And we didn't know about this fetus until this man, this big, burly man looking very strong, very rock hard.
• 10:08
  No one would wanna cross with him in a street, picked up her.
• 10:11
  Piece of art and was really curious.
• 10:13
  And his, he, there were tears in his eyes as he opened this lid, and everyone in the group were like, what, what, what have you seen? And he said, I've seen a little, um, little baby inside.
• 10:24
  And, and he, the way he held her piece of art.
• 10:27
  The way he held that earn and the way he showed compassion was so powerful and everyone wanted to look and everyone was sharing.
• 10:35
  And I could say, look, you know, if, if that, what do you think that baby needs? And someone said that, that baby needs a hug, that baby needs to be cared for and looked after.
• 10:45
  And it was just incredible and, and literally everyone really felt something meaningful.
• 10:51
  Um, in that, in that particular session.
• 10:54
  And, and that's the nature of the arts, whether it be music, whether it be art, drama, it stirs people up and I get to witness that and there's great healing that can come from it.
• 11:04
  Yeah, I remember, so hearing this exact story, I was honestly blown away and it was what you said at the start there.
• 11:10
  You delivered it or you talked with so much passion that it was just, it really came through your passion for art therapy and the work that you do and just how powerful it was.
• 11:19
  It was just so palpable in our conversation and I easily get excited by things like that too.
• 11:24
  So hearing your story and the work that you do, it just felt like, I dunno, like you said, there was an instant connection and.
• 11:32
  I don't remember the first thing that was said, but in that very first conversation, we basically, um, thought about maybe connecting and doing something together, collaborating.
• 11:42
  Um, so I have a slight background in medical education in that I did a, a bachelor's degree in medical education and I have an interest in, um, sort of.
• 11:50
  Training and trainee wellbeing and things like that.
• 11:53
  Uh, so listening to Claire and the work that she does, I guess I just started thinking, where else could this be applied, um, to help us as resident doctors.
• 12:03
  And we all know, um, you know, it's, it's not easy working in the NHS, not just for doctors.
• 12:08
  I think for any healthcare professional, you know, they'll tell you, and obviously resident doctors are very kind of topical at the moment with all the strikes.
• 12:17
  And Claire and I were talking about this, um, recently, weren't we, Claire? It's not just about the pay, it's about the working conditions and it's tough.
• 12:26
  I mean, for me personally, I'd say my F1 F two years, which is the first two years after you graduate, it was a.
• 12:32
  Really tough in.
• 12:34
  In fact, it was so tough that I decided to give up my license to practice and I moved to a different country, but I came back eventually 'cause I couldn't stay away.
• 12:42
  And I do.
• 12:43
  I absolutely love what I do and it's an honor and a privilege, but boy, it's hard at times, you know, working in the NHS.
• 12:50
  So anyway, when Claire was talking about this amazing work that she does, I just thought.
• 12:55
  Maybe we can do it as doctors.
• 12:56
  What, you know, it would be great for us doctors to have the opportunity to, to just relax or not just relax, but to express ourselves in a way that maybe we can't, um, otherwise.
• 13:07
  Um, so I think it just took off from there, wasn't it, Claire? Um, maybe I just floated the idea past you and we just sort of bounced off each other and before we knew it, we'd um, come up with the.
• 13:18
  A brilliant idea for a project we did indeed.
• 13:21
  And just still makes me smile.
• 13:23
  Let's be zaia because we had to jump hoops, Bruce.
• 13:26
  We really did, didn't we? Zaia because, um, I suppose we are in such demand.
• 13:31
  Uh, you know, and anyway, long story short, I was like, yes, let's go for it.
• 13:36
  Sia.
• 13:37
  It would be my honor and pleasure to, to support you.
• 13:40
  And I've done this many times before with colleagues.
• 13:42
  Um.
• 13:44
  Like sometimes, you know, other, my, my boss at the time said, oh no, Claire, you know, you're always that eager to go and do these things, but you've got so many other things to do.
• 13:54
  And I said, no.
• 13:54
  I said, you know what? I said it will.
• 13:57
  I just really wanna do this.
• 13:58
  Sorry to just interrupt you one second.
• 14:01
  I had the exact same pushback from my end as well, which I think I might have told you about the time my supervisor was saying, Safia, you've got a million things to do, like besides the clinical work, you know, you're juggling.
• 14:11
  I was doing a master's at the time, I had exams to prep for, and I had another spirituality project I just started.
• 14:17
  So this just really felt unnecessary and looked like I was being crazy to my supervisor, but there was something about it.
• 14:22
  I really, I just believed in it and it just felt so right.
• 14:26
  Agreed.
• 14:27
  We were literally, it was literally the stars aligning because the next thing we know, so we, we both had this pushback and we thought, no, no, this is right on all levels.
• 14:36
  There's intentions.
• 14:37
  I think that's what's key is it was the best intentions and I think anything that comes out of something that has good intentions is always gonna do well.
• 14:46
  We've thought about this so many times, but, so we did this for just our colleagues and each other and, um, it was my opportunity to, to, to explain it bit about art therapy and, and give, um, doctors a lived experience of what it potentially could be and, and the power it has.
• 15:03
  And, and it was also just a joy 'cause I know this works and it works really well.
• 15:07
  So we opened up something that actually ended up being much larger than we realized because obviously SAT's cohort 30 people.
• 15:17
  And then of course I had to, we had, we had to offer the other two cohorts the same.
• 15:22
  So my boss was really like going, oh my God, what have we done here? Although he was supportive in the end.
• 15:29
  Um, and you know, so we ended up, you know, going from sort of 30 to a hundred and, I dunno, 120 people.
• 15:37
  And it was very, it was just, it was just all.
• 15:40
  Fantastic.
• 15:41
  And you know, it's an opportunity really that we, we would ra rarely get, and I think that's partly down to the innovative team in medical education.
• 15:49
  I mean, they're great visionaries and they could see something here and it's literally gone from strengths to strengths.
• 15:55
  I mean the, the scores, the clinical scores, I think.
• 15:59
  Far kind of, it was that it exceeded any expectation.
• 16:02
  I don't think there was any expectation of clinical scores.
• 16:06
  It was just an opportunity to support colleagues in something.
• 16:09
  I know that works and will help them.
• 16:11
  Yeah.
• 16:12
  Just to second what you're saying, Claire, although we had pushback from our respective supervisors, the medical education team who are going to help us roll this out, was so supportive and yeah, we absolutely have to.
• 16:24
  We, you know, I, they were so supportive and we couldn't have done it without them.
• 16:29
  They literally said, buy whatever materials you want and we'll pay for it.
• 16:34
  We'll provide you with the venue, the location, and um.
• 16:38
  Whatever all the materials you need.
• 16:40
  And they were, without that, we couldn't have been as good.
• 16:43
  It couldn't have been as good as it was, I think.
• 16:45
  Um, so I wonder if it'll be really helpful, Claire, just to, um, break down what the structure of the sessions were and how you came about designing this bespoke workshop.
• 16:58
  Really for resident doctors.
• 17:00
  That would be great, to be fair.
• 17:01
  So, um, but before you go, I just want to ask, um, just go over a little bit and just recap for the people listening, because I think, you know, you've really articulated well about what happened and how you met and, um, and what the really started to paint a picture, if you like, of the, of the art therapy and what you were doing.
• 17:20
  But I think the bit that was really important that you have both said.
• 17:25
  That has come through here and it's come through in so many of the previous podcasts is about that.
• 17:31
  I call it emotional labor from, um, Rebecca Myers who joined before, so that you've really started to talk about that.
• 17:39
  And I just wanted to come back to that because we are not talking about, um, patience for a want of a better word.
• 17:45
  It's not my favorite word.
• 17:46
  Per se we are talking about here about treating doctors or helping supporting doctors in order to be able to do their work.
• 17:53
  And I just think that's a really important thing to, to remember that actually if we don't support our staff to do their work, and you have both said this, but if we don't support our staff to do their work, then actually the work they do is not going to be as good.
• 18:07
  And Sia, you spoke about how you left and came back again, and I think that really demonstrates that emotional labor that you.
• 18:15
  Were going through at the time and why this work is so important and probably why this work was so important to you.
• 18:21
  So it sounds like you were not only excited about the art therapy, but there was probably something there that you were thinking to yourself, do you know what? This is really important and this really needs to work.
• 18:31
  So I just wanted to draw on that point a little bit more before Claire goes into what it was that you were actually doing.
• 18:37
  So I think I'm sort of repeating it, but I think it's a really important point to get across.
• 18:42
  You are absolutely right.
• 18:43
  I think listening to Claire at the time in our conversation, yes, I was excited by the art therapy side of it, but when I thought we could use that to help doctors, it became even more exciting for both Claire and myself at the time.
• 18:55
  This was 2024, the, the national training survey of 2024, which is a, a general medical council GMC survey of doctors.
• 19:03
  Um, they.
• 19:05
  Measure various things including burnout, risk, and I think at the time the 2024 survey showed that resident doctors were at moderate to high risk.
• 19:15
  63% of resident doctors who did the survey were at moderate to high risk.
• 19:20
  Of burnout, which was surprisingly even higher than pandemic levels.
• 19:25
  And that was really striking.
• 19:26
  Um, and it was ref and it wasn't surprising, even though it was striking because as a resident doctor, it is really tough.
• 19:32
  Um, and I think working on the front lines, it's not easy.
• 19:36
  I don't think it's easier now than it was 10, 15 years ago when I graduated.
• 19:41
  Um, sorry, it's not 15 years, it's just 10 years.
• 19:46
  Um, so I think that was a huge motivator for, for this piece of work.
• 19:51
  And I knew, I knew that a shadow of a doubt, the way I was excited was going to be.
• 19:57
  I, I knew all the junior doctors would feel, or resident doctors rather, would feel exactly the same way at the opportunity to engage in something like art therapy during work hours.
• 20:08
  I knew they would love it and they really, really did.
• 20:11
  So, Claire, do you want to come back in now and talk about the actual, what you put together and how it all worked? Well, it was actually a co-creation with Safia.
• 20:20
  Um, we both talked and discussed the needs and, and you know, I, having worked with doctors and other healthcare professionals, I know how tough it is working in the NHS and I kind of got a sense that.
• 20:33
  Most of us when we are stressed, we just need time for our brains to just relax, to switch off.
• 20:39
  And, and that's something partly what art therapy can offer.
• 20:42
  Definitely art therapy and, and wellbeing, um, group.
• 20:45
  But also we didn't want to sort of have therapy.
• 20:48
  We didn't, we agreed that it wouldn't be therapy, it would be a wellbeing.
• 20:52
  We didn't even wanna use the word wellbeing, did we? Here it was.
• 20:55
  It was to, to gain an experience of what it might be like to be in an art therapy group.
• 21:00
  And that in terms of educating.
• 21:03
  Um, colleagues as well about art therapy.
• 21:06
  It was a win-win situation, so we, we chose for the, uh, the group to be anonymous.
• 21:12
  Um, kind of a real, sort of similar model actually to, to what I described earlier with the, um, the drug and alcohol groups.
• 21:20
  And I think that's why it was so successful that particular type of group.
• 21:23
  Not all art therapy groups are like that, but we didn't want it to be therapy.
• 21:26
  We wanted it to be it to be art, like a therapy informed.
• 21:29
  So we were getting doctors as close to the edge of art therapy as possible, and I think Saffy will agree.
• 21:35
  It really was lots of things and at times quite close to the edge.
• 21:40
  As well in terms of emotionally, uh, but not quite therapy.
• 21:44
  Um, so I think that was really helpful.
• 21:46
  Um, it was, uh.
• 21:49
  We, we kind of had like a several different areas really.
• 21:52
  I mean, art therapy is a, is a bottom up therapy.
• 21:55
  It's also a top down therapy.
• 21:56
  It's also a sideways therapy.
• 21:58
  But in terms of helping with stress, bottom up approaches, um, are really, really powerful because if you think when we are stressed or we're traumatized, our ability to think our prefrontal cortex, which is, which relates to kind of, um, context, um, it relates to, um.
• 22:16
  Being rational that goes out the window.
• 22:18
  I mean, when you are fighting something, when you are stressed, there is no way you get the luxury of thinking.
• 22:24
  And, and, and this I think also brings home as well, the importance of having this type of intervention for people who are about to burn out or are burning out.
• 22:33
  They're under stress, they can't think properly.
• 22:36
  And that's why it's so crucial.
• 22:38
  Absolutely crucial for anyone in decision making.
• 22:41
  Um, professions, and I'm not just talking about healthcare, but any main um, frontline.
• 22:47
  Um, workers, they, they need, they need time to, to understand, um, how they can reduce that stress.
• 22:55
  And, and so part of the, part of the, um, workshop was incorporating, um, we call it polyvagal nerves.
• 23:02
  Informed exercises, not actually polyvagal nerve, but that's the name of the theory, a polyvagal nerve theory.
• 23:09
  Um, which that art making naturally does.
• 23:11
  It, it promotes the vagus nerve, which is the, the, um, nervous system.
• 23:16
  It activates it, it helps to regulate, it helps to bring back a bodily sense of calm.
• 23:23
  And, and often you get, well, always you get this from, um, you know, anything that's cross lateral.
• 23:28
  You know, people say yoga's really good for relaxation for that reason.
• 23:32
  Right to left cross bilateral movements, which, which art making can do really well.
• 23:38
  Um, and also we, we ran some exercises that were art based, again, cross lateral, unilateral, just to kind of help promote the sense of wellbeing and, um, emotional regulation.
• 23:51
  Um, and then there was the art making part.
• 23:53
  Um, which was lots of fun and, and art making is connective.
• 23:57
  It's fun.
• 23:58
  It brings about a sense of joy and, and it's, it's an opportunity for people to, to take off their doctor's hats and just be themselves and just be, and, and no one needed to be good at art as well.
• 24:11
  So there was no stress or pressure in any way.
• 24:14
  I mean, art can be anything.
• 24:16
  Art can be literally taken out, uh, something from your bag and seeing it as, as a sculptor.
• 24:22
  And that can be produced.
• 24:23
  You know, there there's no, there's no pressure.
• 24:26
  And even just a mark, you know, if you think like I, I mean, Ruth, you could say, oh, I'm not very good at art, but like, if you just did one single line on a piece of paper, no one else can make that.
• 24:35
  That's your personal imprint, and that is you, and that is art too.
• 24:40
  So, so art therapy is very, uh, inclusive.
• 24:44
  Um, and also it's multisensory.
• 24:45
  You get to engage with the gooey art materials.
• 24:48
  You get to be a child again if you want to.
• 24:50
  You can get to, you know, get your plasticine and, and, and make something and, and it's just, it's a really.
• 24:57
  Nice thing to do.
• 24:58
  Or some people even just write or, or write poetry.
• 25:01
  Everything's, everything's on, on, on welcome.
• 25:04
  But I think with the art therapy, the, the psychoanalytic bit, the psychotherapeutic bit comes in the second phase after the art making has, has been done, uh, we then get to look at the art and part of this particular.
• 25:18
  And we were looking at other, you know, art, just to sort of think about emotions and how they're expressed and, and how powerful art is to express wor express feelings beyond words that we don't have words to describe.
• 25:31
  And, and just by sitting and acknowledging and.
• 25:35
  Being together is very unifying and, and connecting, and it just helps everyone to realize that they're not on their own and that we're all humans.
• 25:44
  It's a very collective experience.
• 25:46
  Um, and I think that's, I, I think that was what was picked up and that's why the outcomes were incredible actually, like.
• 25:54
  More powerful than we realized that session, it was only what, two hours and a lot happened in two hours.
• 26:00
  And I'll leave that to Sia to talk about.
• 26:03
  Thanks Claire.
• 26:04
  Um, I was, just to add to what you've said, um, when we were thinking about the planning of what this was going to provide or be, um, in my head there were two streams.
• 26:15
  There was the, the main thing for me, the primary aim, um, I guess was around seeing whether.
• 26:21
  Engaging in art therapy, um, or art.
• 26:24
  These art experiential workshops could improve wellbeing amongst doctors in various measures, which I'll come on to talk about.
• 26:33
  And the secondary aim, which is really relevant because you need to remember this happened.
• 26:37
  At a mental health trust.
• 26:38
  So all the doctors there that were rotating through were either doctors specializing in psychiatry, or they were gps or foundation doctors who are currently in a job in psychiatry.
• 26:50
  So the secondary aim was to improve doctors understanding of art therapy, um, in order that they can help their patients and, um, maybe think about referring patients to art therapy, um, more routinely, um, because.
• 27:06
  At the point, at that point, I, I hadn't, I'll be honest, I didn't know much about art therapy and I knew most of my colleagues would not either.
• 27:13
  Um, so they were the two mainstreams of why this.
• 27:18
  Project was carried out.
• 27:19
  Um, and so when we were designing the workshop, I really wanted to measure this and evaluate this because it felt really special and I, I knew it was going to be the start of something important.
• 27:31
  So I, we really wanted to evaluate it.
• 27:34
  Um, so I had to, we designed a survey, a pre-workshop survey, and a post-workshop survey that will measure the aims that I've just, um, outlined.
• 27:43
  Um, so.
• 27:45
  Essentially just, you know, a, a summary is that there were five measures that we measured.
• 27:51
  They were, uh, relaxation, pre and post workshop.
• 27:55
  Um, self-awareness, self-confidence, positivity about the day ahead, connection with others.
• 28:02
  They were the five measures that we measured.
• 28:04
  Um, and we asked some other questions as well, pre and post, such as, um, how well do you understand art therapy or what's your understanding of art therapy? Um, and do you think it could be beneficial to adopt.
• 28:14
  Us personally or professionally.
• 28:17
  Um, so essentially it was the same survey before and after, um, and the, the results honestly blew us away.
• 28:24
  Um, so it was, it was mostly a statistical analysis.
• 28:28
  There were qualitative answers as well, um, which were really, really interesting to read.
• 28:32
  But, um.
• 28:33
  In essence, all the measures that I've outlined had improved, statistically improved.
• 28:39
  And for the listeners who are, you know, that statistically sort of inclined, um, or interested, we used, um, independent samples t tests and they were, the results were all statistically, statistically significant for increasing in those five wellbeing measures pre and post survey.
• 28:57
  Um, so.
• 28:59
  There was no doubt that it was, it had done something amazing for all the doctors there.
• 29:04
  Um, not all the doctors did the survey, so it was optional.
• 29:07
  But we had 62 responses, which is a, a good number of responses to work with.
• 29:12
  And we also had.
• 29:14
  Loads of free text, qualitative responses, um, with doctors saying how it was, um, incredible relaxing.
• 29:21
  It helped them self reflect.
• 29:23
  Um, and they'd, and, and the overwhelming majority of them wanted to do it again, and we've had such, um.
• 29:31
  Uh, a really positive response, haven't we, Claire, for doctors wanting to do this again, um, routinely, you know, once or twice a year at least.
• 29:39
  That sounds amazing.
• 29:40
  Safia and listening to you there, you've talked about the difference that it's made.
• 29:45
  This work and, and people wanting to come back again.
• 29:48
  Sounds incredible.
• 29:49
  And of course you talked about that self-reflection and uh, so much of what I've spoken about and I'm sure you do at work as well, you know, most professionals, we talk about being able to reflect on practice, yet you spoke earlier on Claire, that actually we, our brains need time to relax in order to be able to think, let alone reflect.
• 30:06
  So this is really important part of clinical work that people don't think about is stopping, thinking about what's happening, reflecting and how to do that differently, both for your own.
• 30:15
  Personal self and for, for the people that you are, that we might be caring for.
• 30:20
  And the other thing that you've spoken about there, Safia, is how, um, there was, uh, qualitative that, um, free text.
• 30:28
  So for anybody who's listening, qualitative is a way of talking about.
• 30:32
  Data if you like, but actually it's something that people have said or they've written, so it's sort of words or verbal in some, some way, written or verbal.
• 30:41
  This podcast is all about collective voices, so if you're enjoying it, please subscribe and share it across your networks, your friends, your family, your colleagues.
• 30:51
  This way we can amplify the voice, share the stories further, and it'll help to keep the podcast going.
• 30:57
  Now back to the conversation.
• 31:01
  So I wonder if either of you and I, I dunno if this might come back to you, sfi.
• 31:05
  I know that you've just spoken, but if could perhaps tell um, a story or something that happened from those workshops that can really show the impact.
• 31:13
  So I know you've talked about the data, but maybe from those stories or from your own experience, or maybe you had a conversation with somebody who said, do you know this was happening and now? It's like this and it looks so much better to really give us a visual about what's going on, if that's okay.
• 31:29
  Please.
• 31:30
  Um, I can tell you something.
• 31:31
  So one of the consultant came up to me and said, Claire, you've gone viral.
• 31:35
  And I said, what are you talking about? She went, oh, I've heard about yours and Safia's project.
• 31:39
  And she said, see that? She said, see, there's people who've got their artwork up in the office.
• 31:46
  And every time they have look at the artwork, it gives them joy.
• 31:50
  And I thought, wow, that is powerful.
• 31:52
  If that can, if that one workshop in two hours can do that, I've, I've done a really good job and I felt really pleased.
• 31:59
  And, uh, yeah, that, that just made, just summed it up for me and unfortunately.
• 32:04
  With the art therapy because it's, um, maybe a smallish profession.
• 32:09
  It's not that well known, but I keep shouting.
• 32:11
  I never stop.
• 32:12
  My boss used to say to me, why did you get so excited all the time? No, you know, everyone's, you know, why are you so, continue to be excited about.
• 32:21
  I said, because I get to see it.
• 32:23
  It's like a, a best kept secret.
• 32:25
  I get to see what it can do.
• 32:27
  And I think really in terms of like trauma, now there's more and more emphasis on trauma and more research and trauma.
• 32:33
  You know, how it's held in the body and how, you know, we need to look at that.
• 32:37
  And we really need to think about how important it's to engage the body in a therapy, a psychological therapy, um, which art therapy, the art therapies do so well.
• 32:48
  Um, you know, obviously they, you know, they, they are a cognitive therapy as well, but they do both.
• 32:53
  They.
• 32:54
  Thanks Claire.
• 32:55
  Um, referring to what you said earlier, the most powerful part of the workshop for me and for all, all the participants, I think was the group, um, reflection.
• 33:06
  Um, so this was after we'd produced our art pieces.
• 33:10
  We sat round in a massive circle and the art pieces were laid out on the side and the facilitators, so Claire or her boss, or one of the other art therapists would pick a piece.
• 33:23
  Of art, um, and they were all anonymous and they'd bring it to the, the center of the circle and lay it on the floor and we'd all just spend like a minute in silence just looking at it.
• 33:34
  And, um, much like in a group psychotherapy environment, people just said what came to them or arose.
• 33:42
  And we had some really, 'cause I was there for all three of the workshops in the first year and it was.
• 33:49
  So powerful.
• 33:50
  Honestly, so powerful.
• 33:51
  And it was really humbling for me, um, because you see an artwork and that's just your perspective and you think, oh yeah, that's a boat and it looks really cheerful and happy, or it's blue and someone else sees something completely different.
• 34:05
  And it's so humbling to, to think, wow, there are a million different perspectives on, on just one piece of artwork.
• 34:11
  And so, and, um, maybe a psychiatrist or doc.
• 34:15
  Um, or the fact that we've chosen this specialty, we're interested in the mind and emotions anyway.
• 34:19
  Um, but there was a lot, um, people connected what they were seeing to emotions and maybe even stories, and people were hypothesizing.
• 34:29
  And the, the person that made the art, um, had the option to reveal themselves.
• 34:34
  Sometimes they did, sometimes, I think most of the time they stayed silent, didn't they? Claire? And I think for that person, 'cause I, I had my RPS selected once as well and it's really nerve wracking, but really exciting.
• 34:47
  It's like someone's reading you, um, it's a very vulnerable place to be in, but it's also so insightful actually.
• 34:55
  And you walk away, um, with.
• 34:58
  May you walk away with a lot more insight on yourself and, and you are you.
• 35:04
  I think if you approach it with curiosity, you might be left with more questions than you started because people will, will offer their perspectives, which makes you think more, but that's the, that's the part that makes yourself reflective.
• 35:15
  I think it increases that capacity to be self-reflective.
• 35:18
  Um, and it's, it was such a powerful process every single time and all the doctors, um, agreed.
• 35:24
  Um, and it came through in the responses and the surveys and the comments I got afterwards as well, just saying, oh, that was great.
• 35:30
  Or Claire was great at the art therapy.
• 35:32
  That was such a great experience.
• 35:34
  We'd love to have this again.
• 35:36
  Um, and the other thing I observed in, in the session when there were, when there was art making was just how much people.
• 35:43
  Relaxed and really just got into the artwork.
• 35:47
  Uh, we had a bit of light music on in the background.
• 35:50
  Um, and the doctors, you could just see they became almost like childlike.
• 35:56
  'cause we, we don't get the opportunity to do things like this, even outside work, let alone during work hours.
• 36:02
  Um, you could just feel the energy in the room was just so, um, light and relaxed.
• 36:08
  Um, so yeah.
• 36:10
  Thank you both and there's some really powerful.
• 36:13
  Stories and I can feel and see 'cause other people won't see us.
• 36:17
  See the passion in your faces of how much difference this is made.
• 36:21
  But I'm just wondering, just going back to that sort of story bit as well.
• 36:23
  Is there something that you can tell us about somebody or even yourself, um, SIA, about actually doing this? What, I know you've talked about extra, you know.
• 36:33
  That reflection and being more incited into yourself, but what difference did that make to anybody's practice? Did somebody say, actually, I was going to do this, or perhaps they were planning on leaving or they'd be doing something different.
• 36:46
  Did, did this have an impact on an individual or did anybody, and or did anybody have anything where they said, do you know what? I'm gonna do this differently now when I see people, I'm going to do.
• 36:58
  I'm going to behave in this way or I'm going to do something else.
• 37:01
  So not particularly just referring them for art therapy, but that, that difference it might make in and the outcomes for the people that they're caring for.
• 37:08
  So really I'm asking around the professional and the individuals.
• 37:12
  I know it's difficult to share stories from other people, but I'm just wondering what some of that, what you called, um, a quality of data, you know, that what people said really told you.
• 37:22
  That'd be interesting to hear.
• 37:24
  One of the, um, I guess, comments I got was the other part of the, the workshop we hadn't mentioned that actually was really powerful as well.
• 37:32
  Following the group, um, analysis of the art, uh, pieces, we, uh, Claire and the art, other art therapists brought out previous art pieces by patients.
• 37:45
  Um, and they were.
• 37:48
  In comparison to most of the art pieces produced by the doctors in the sessions, it was a lot more, I guess, mostly a lot darker, um, and really powerful.
• 37:59
  You, you look at the piece.
• 38:00
  So they brought out the pieces and we looked at them one by one, uh, and passed them around it.
• 38:06
  The pain and the suffering, um, was.
• 38:09
  Almost palpable.
• 38:10
  You could almost feel it by looking at the art pieces.
• 38:13
  And we weren't given any brief around what the mental health history was or what the patient had gone through or the diagnoses, but just looking at how dark the art they'd produced was, um, was really powerful.
• 38:27
  Um, we didn't need words for it, and I had doctors telling me afterwards, and it was in the, the free text survey responses as well around.
• 38:38
  How they could feel the pain of their PA of the patients.
• 38:42
  And they have a newfound respect for art therapy and they really understand the value of art therapy.
• 38:50
  And I think what, um, some people said was, if, if, if feels.
• 38:56
  This helpful for them as doctors in terms of relaxing them and connecting them to their colleagues.
• 39:01
  They can only imagine how helpful it will be for pe PE people with quite serious mental illness who, um, probably will often find it hard to express themselves, particularly verbally and how are, you know, could, will likely be a really powerful medium for them to express their really difficult emotions.
• 39:21
  Um, so they.
• 39:22
  I guess there was something around connecting more with patients and their pain and suffering through the artwork that they'd seen.
• 39:29
  Thank you, Safia.
• 39:30
  That's really helpful and I think gives a, a sort of much deeper picture.
• 39:35
  And you talked about that darker art that people had done and how, um.
• 39:40
  I don't know if, if this is what you were saying, but in my mind it was, it was easier for them to perhaps hold that and see that with, through a piece of art than perhaps when somebody said it verbally.
• 39:50
  Plus the person that was saying it was, it was easier for them to express that through the art, which perhaps they might not have been able to express because that might have come across as anger or crying or some other sort of format.
• 40:02
  Just going to ask Claire, um, to, 'cause I know she's worked with, um, in, uh, with inpatient wards, um, and the teams there and they've used art therapy during ward rounds and, um, I've loved hearing about this, so I'd, it'd be great if you can tell us more, Claire.
• 40:19
  Thank you Sia.
• 40:20
  Yes.
• 40:20
  Um, it's so powerful to use, uh, art, the, the art made in art therapy in um, in patient wards, especially when you're looking at the multi, when the multidisciplinary team are meeting because that patient no longer is a number.
• 40:34
  That patient is a living feeling entity within the art.
• 40:39
  That's how powerful it is There's a, a name for it.
• 40:42
  They call it the, uh, counter athe.
• 40:44
  It's the aesthetic transparent, um, is the term.
• 40:48
  Um, I won't get too, um, technical there, but it comes alive.
• 40:52
  You know, when your eyes are looking at a piece of embodied.
• 40:57
  Even if it's a mark, even if it's a crumple piece of paper or something ripped up, it explains so much about the person that did that.
• 41:05
  So it's not, it's not necessarily a beautiful piece of art that makes art powerful.
• 41:08
  It's, it's what it conveys.
• 41:10
  It's the energy that's made it and, and the colors that create it, that just mix together to, to present something that's palpable and powerful and it makes people think, and it, and it, and it's a really good advocate for.
• 41:25
  Uh, someone, a patient in this case, um, and I know that, you know, trialing that out in, um, ward Rounds was really effective.
• 41:33
  It was really well received by all staff.
• 41:36
  Um, and it made Ward rounds much more dynamic and meaningful.
• 41:41
  And I think that was really key too.
• 41:43
  And, and that was what the feedback was from colleagues, um, on ward rounds.
• 41:48
  When we did trial this out, this is going back about.
• 41:51
  Six or seven years.
• 41:52
  But you know, this isn't new where medics have really enjoyed and appreciated art, art therapy.
• 41:59
  But you know, it just so happens the stars were aligned this time and something came about, which was really, really, I think very important and very.
• 42:11
  Um, and also I think that, um, one thing that did happen is, uh, one of the medical directors of education came in, didn't he? Safia to participate.
• 42:22
  And I think that was really powerful as well, the impact on him.
• 42:25
  I'm really conscious now of time and, um.
• 42:28
  I'm gonna say you've painted a lovely picture, both of you, so thank you so much.
• 42:32
  Been really and interesting because I know we had a conversation about this before, but I've really understood a lot more today than when we met previously.
• 42:40
  Um, so I just wanted to ask before we go, just if you would give me, um, or for our viewers, not me particularly, and some final thoughts or a call to action or a reflection that you'd like to share with people.
• 42:53
  Um, and.
• 42:55
  I must admit that sort of going forward, you know, we've moved into a new year, I've been thinking as well, it might be a call to action, but it might also just be actually something, a message of positivity because there's so much happening, I think at the moment that sometimes a, a note to leave people with a little bit of hope so, yeah.
• 43:12
  I've extended it a bit there, but what, whatever it is that you want to share would be really lovely just to end this with please.
• 43:18
  Um, thanks Ruth.
• 43:19
  So, um, I just, I'd like to say that, um, I fully believe in, and I'm so passionate about this project today as I was two years ago when we started, when it started to come to life.
• 43:32
  Um, and I've now, you know, I've since left Surian Borders, but Claire has continued to deliver these workshops for all the resident doctors.
• 43:40
  Through the academic program and with the support of the medical education team.
• 43:45
  And I think it can go places, and I'm not just saying this based on this, you know, the results of our first round of, um, workshops.
• 43:56
  It's recently, there was even an article in the BBC about art therapy, um, for doctors that they'd rolled out.
• 44:04
  In a, a London Trust.
• 44:05
  I think it's parts trust, um, not specifically for psychiatry doctors, but for resident doctors in general and really, really similar results to ours.
• 44:14
  So I think it was happening sort of at the same time, and we weren't aware of this project at Bar.
• 44:20
  Health, trust, um, and we've only just, um, come to know of it.
• 44:24
  So anyway, I guess what I'm saying is it's really exciting that, um, the medic medical education departments and the people who are, um, in charge of training for doctors in this country are thinking of innovative, um, fresh ways to, to support the doctors and not just thinking about.
• 44:43
  Traditional ways of medical education because yes, that didactic learning and the the, um, you know, the learning of knowledge is really important.
• 44:51
  But more and more what we are realizing is, you know, staff retention is important.
• 44:56
  Um, looking after our, our staff and doctors is really important.
• 44:59
  Um, ensuring that, you know, we minimize risk of burnout is important.
• 45:04
  Um, 'cause loads of junior doctors or resident doctors.
• 45:07
  Are leaving training are leaving the country year on year to different countries.
• 45:13
  Um, and we, we don't want that.
• 45:15
  Um, and it's not just resident doctors, I think it's other healthcare professionals as well.
• 45:18
  So art therapy, I genuinely believe based on the work that we've done and other people are doing, um, really gives us a beacon of hope for something exciting, something fresh, um, and something that might genuinely help.
• 45:34
  Resident doctors reduce their levels of burnout and enjoy their work more, connect more with colleagues, um, and just feel more confident in themselves.
• 45:44
  Um.
• 45:46
  Yeah.
• 45:46
  Thank you.
• 45:48
  That, thank you, Safia.
• 45:49
  That was really, um, a powerful take home message there that this is exciting, it's new and actually there's a long way and lots of potential for this work.
• 45:58
  So I'm gonna come over to you.
• 45:59
  I think that's probably reduces it a little bit, but that I think was the main key points.
• 46:03
  And Claire, I'm gonna come over to you Please.
• 46:06
  I'm so excited too.
• 46:08
  Um, I never stopped being excited.
• 46:10
  Um.
• 46:11
  We do have a long way to go.
• 46:12
  Art therapy is a very small profession.
• 46:14
  Um, and because of that, we don't have the money or the people to, to get, um, RCTs more RCTs out there.
• 46:24
  I mean, it's, it's the same because particularly with trauma, I think, uh, art therapy is, is a, is really, really quite a highly viable treatment.
• 46:33
  We've got a lot of qualitative data.
• 46:36
  We have a few RCTs, but not nearly enough and it's very difficult to get.
• 46:40
  Um, get any traction.
• 46:42
  So hopefully this will, you know, anyone interested in looking further into an RCT for art therapy.
• 46:49
  We are always welcome.
• 46:51
  Always welcome you and, uh, I think, yeah, there's something here and I think there's a culture change at scale, hopefully within.
• 46:59
  Our, um, healthcare environments and, and potentially much further in other public sector, um, industries like, you know, police, fire, um, you know, everyone really, really suffer them when we are dealing with really difficult, challenging cases.
• 47:14
  Um, and we wanna look after our public.
• 47:17
  Um, we also need looking after too.
• 47:19
  So I think that's a, the takeaway message is think art therapy.
• 47:23
  Thank you.
• 47:24
  And that was a really good note to end on, so thank you both.
• 47:28
  I think thinking art therapy, but thinking art therapy as a way to support.
• 47:33
  Ourselves or the people that are providing care, doctors or whoever else, as you say Claire, in order that they can support everybody else that much better.
• 47:41
  So thank you for joining me.
• 47:43
  Claire, you're gonna say something gone? Yeah, sorry.
• 47:45
  Just to say, we are an allied health profession.
• 47:47
  You know, we are a regulated, we are, uh, you know, specialist practitioners, um, and.
• 47:54
  The art therapies are music therapy and drama therapy as well, and we all come as a collective under the word art psychotherapies, although it's a little bit.
• 48:04
  Hard sometimes to decipher all of us between that.
• 48:07
  But just wanted to add that too and, and really important because those roles are often under unheard of, underestimated.
• 48:13
  And I think what you've done today is show the power of them.
• 48:15
  So thank you so much for joining me.
• 48:17
  I really appreciate your time, um, and it was lovely to see you both again.
• 48:23
  I hope you found this episode interesting and inspiring.
• 48:27
  If today's conversation has stirred something within you, please share it together.
• 48:32
  Let's build the ripple that we need to create change.
• 48:36
  And if you haven't yet, please follow the show and leave a rating.
• 48:39
  You can also find on my link tree a link to my feedback form where you can share your questions, ideas, and reflections, and talk about what you'd like to hear on this podcast in the future and what matters to you together.
• 48:53
  Let's shape a space into something reflective and purposeful.
• 48:58
  So for now, stay caring.
• 49:00
  Stay connected and stay curious.
• 49:05
  Thank you for listening.
• 49:06
  I think that was a great episode, and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did too.
• 49:10
  And I just want to leave you with this final thought as you go back into your day, where might a little creativity help you feel more like yourself? What is it that you do to help you slow down and give your brain time to relax? And so until the next episode, take care.