Latest / Aspergers & Autism Podcast [The Aspie World] AuDHD / Autism Therapy Interesting New Wave Info (Must See)

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Autism Therapy Interesting New Wave Info (Must See) · Aspergers & Autism Podcast [The Aspie World] AuDHD

• 0:00
  As we go back to another as we will podcast, what is going on?
• 0:02
  Like I say, every time these recorded live or doesn't go out
• 0:04
  live, so you're seeing a pre recorded message.
• 0:06
  So if you do leave any comments, just be sure to know that I will
• 0:10
  pick them up at a later date. It's not live, so stay tuned
• 0:12
  guys, what's going on? I have a cold, so if I sound
• 0:14
  like, you know, congested, it's because these Dang germs are
• 0:19
  hanging around. But anyway, regardless of my
• 0:21
  physical health and well-being, but other than I'm fine, guys,
• 0:25
  don't worry about me. I'm here joined with with an
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  awesome guest. It's taking me ages guest on the
• 0:29
  show because like I've been trying for ages and like one
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  thing after another. But anyway, we're here and it's
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  it's really awesome. So Megan, welcome to the show.
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  And do you want to kind of introduce yourself like what you
• 0:37
  do, who you are, that kind of thing?
• 0:39
  Oh my gosh, like autistic anxiety just came over for me
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  and drew it. Down.
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  Emphasizing these are not my skills but OK.
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  I'm a psychologist in the states.
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  Clinical psychologist. I'm autistic ADHD.
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  I used to see the pronouns, gender expansions been part of
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  my unmasking experience. I'm a nerd avergent parent to
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  nerd avergent kids. Oh, I sounded nerd avergent
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  insights. So I create, I think kind of
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  what I'm known for is I create infographics.
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  I try to distill the research into highly visual infographics
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  'cause my I think in visuals. And so that I've been doing that
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  for a couple years. I have a book coming out,
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  self-care for Autistic people. And then I just I like to make
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  Wellness and kind of psychological information
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  available for the nerd divergent person in mind.
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  A lot of times we need to adapt some of the conventional like
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  Wellness and psychological strategies for our brains.
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  So that's really what I enjoy nerding out and doing and then
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  also making it highly visual because that's how my brain
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  works. Amazing.
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  How did I do with the intro thought?
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  You did really well. I mean, that really summed it
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  up. And I love that because I and I
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  love the the psychology aspect of it.
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  I was going to do my undergrad degree in psychology, but I
• 2:02
  changed it to chemistry because chemistry really kind of like I
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  like psychology, but I like marketing psychology more than
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  anything else because I find it fascinating.
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  What triggers someone to recompulse emotionally to say I
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  want this thing. All right, I learn that aligns
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  with me. You know what I mean?
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  Humans are fascinated and and you see that in marketing
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  psychology or like motivational psychology of like what
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  motivates us as humans. Yeah, I agree.
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  That's a really interesting. Yeah, and I and everything that
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  it all started because like being, being a YouTube, right,
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  right. And YouTube titles.
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  What's emotionally compelling? What's going to make someone
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  think this has emotional value to me?
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  And I think, you know that that whole thing is amazing.
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  So and my uncle is a psychologist.
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  He's a hypnotherapist and all stuff.
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  So I very interesting. I know it's not all Freudian,
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  kind of like, you know, sex based psychology, but but I do
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  think Singapore is quite right about a lot of things anyway.
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  But. I, I like Freud.
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  I, I, I'm borrow from the psychodynamic world.
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  That's one of the world's I kind of dig deeply in.
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  So yeah, I like not everything Freud said, obviously, but that
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  psycho and analytic thinking is pretty interesting to me.
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  Yeah, I think like as long as it'll go down the Pavlov kind
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  of, you know, era of like conditioning and and stuff like
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  that, it kind of gets more animalistic then, right.
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  So. Yeah, autistic people have a bad
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  history with all of that conditioning.
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  Yeah, rearing of psychology, absolutely.
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  Like, there's a lot of healing we have to do in our
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  relationship to psychology when we think.
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  Yeah. You know, and I think it comes a
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  lot of fact that like, you know, it's it's kind of like if you
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  think about your grandparents, grandparents, they'd be slapping
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  their wives in order to think of anything of it, right?
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  You know, the guys would be coming home drunk and like beat
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  their wives up and no one cared because, like, it was just
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  something that happened in like the the 20s or, or, you know, I
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  mean, all the 1900s. But like now, it's preposterous
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  to think that any person would have a toxic masculinity allowed
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  like that in a house, right? It's absolutely disgraceful.
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  So it's kind of like that in psychology, like the psychology
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  back in the day. I was like, yeah, it will
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  persecute somebody for being, you know, having additional
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  needs is fine. And now we're like, it's
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  absolutely bonkers. But we have to take it in the
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  stride how it was presented and the intelligence of the of the
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  society at the time. And as we know, society has
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  grown, right. You know, if you go back like,
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  you know, even like, you know, the average person, I think was
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  like 1910, the average person would have the amount of
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  knowledge a person would gather would could fit on a copy of 1
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  issue of the New York Times. But like now, obviously people
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  digest up daily, right? That was an entire lifetime for
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  one person back in late 1910. So it's kind of like our
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  intelligence has grown and our understanding of, of thyself has
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  grown. And I think that's something
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  really important to look back. Like we can't just go like
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  everything sucks because it was. I don't think the intelligence
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  has huge amounts to do with it, but fascination.
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  Oh, sorry. I just, I like where you're
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  going with that of contextualizing.
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  I think sometimes we forget to contextualize these ideas from,
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  yeah, the cultural context, what was happening, what was.
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  Accepted. Relative at the time, what was
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  accepted, like how much? Yeah, we've grown so much
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  developmentally in our understanding of identities and
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  and and equity and justice. But to be able to contextualise
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  this was the context of which this idea was birthed.
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  Is it because I think there's a really important part of the
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  conversation whenever we're looking at these?
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  Things 100%. I think I had a conversation
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  with a friend of mine, a woman called Sara Harvey.
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  She used to be agonyorty. I don't know if you ever come
• 5:27
  across any of your content. And agonyorty, she's had a lot
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  of trouble, you know, lesser. She's dealing with her own
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  thing. But we were talking about the
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  whole idea of because obviously Hans Asperger heavily involved
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  in kind of like some really. Yeah, Yeah.
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  But we should never ignore the yeah, it's very problematic.
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  But it's 1942, you know, everything was problematic in
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  1942. We had lead in toys, for
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  Christ's sake. You know, kids are shooting on
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  lead toys, smoking it, smoke, love Johnny, you know.
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  Oh, yeah, salmon. Yeah.
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  Have a cigarette. You know what?
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  And it's crazy. But but that researcher Hans
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  Asper did it was very dominant. And and some of it is very
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  logically thought out. Not the not the eugenics and not
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  the kind of persecuting people ethic cleansing, none of that
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  stuff. Typical stuff.
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  A behavioural based monitor monitoring of research.
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  You know, we use a lot of Hans Asperger research and Leo
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  Kenneth's research still to this day from what Lorna Wingpick did
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  have in the 80s, right? She still uses it today.
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  But a lot of people have an issue with Hans Asperger's
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  research rather than his character, right?
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  So his research was like any scientific research, but his
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  character was untaught, right? So I think that's another thing
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  we have to kind of like when we think about psychology, we think
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  about our history of everything. You know, like you said, not
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  everything Freud said was right. You know, I don't think, you
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  know, having kites with your patients is going to cure them.
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  But, you know, he did. He tried everything in the book.
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  And I think we have to be mindful of that, especially when
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  we're dealing with like things like the mind.
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  You know, when you go back to well, you go back to 1950s, you
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  have like L Ron Hubbard coming out with like diabetics and, you
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  know, there was everybody was about the mind, right?
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  So I don't think, I don't think Hans Asperger's alone in his
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  crazy attempts to do things. But yeah, I would do.
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  Interesting. What's your what's your view on
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  that? Which part of that?
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  Like, you know, I get a lot of stick because like I allow
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  people, I'm I'm accepting the people still want to say the
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  word. I have Asperger syndrome.
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  I'm like, OK, cool. That's how you want to identify.
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  It's cool, man. You know, I, I take people who
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  say, ah, you tell me you're pronouns.
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  You tell me, oh, you would be labeled as that's cool.
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  I'm cool with it. But people get like a big stink
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  about it. Like, well, you can't use a Nazi
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  and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, but like Siemens
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  electronics, VW cars, like Francis, like, you know, Hugo
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  Boss made the the, the uniforms for the Third Reich.
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  It's like you can't just hold these people accountable
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  forever. As in like you can't just say,
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  oh, because they had a, a shady past.
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  That doesn't mean that they are shady now, you know what I mean?
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  Because like Hugo Boss, you'd still probably buy that perfume,
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  right? You wouldn't say I'm not going
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  to take it because they made the Nazi uniforms or I'm not going
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  to buy Siemens electronic equipment because they made the
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  gas chambers, because that was, you know, a different time.
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  And there was a different set of people involved, those people
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  who managed Siemens back in 1930, but not the people who
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  manage it now. So it's a very interesting
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  concept. And if we're going to
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  decompartmentalize every single aspect of Nazi regime, I think
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  we'd be left of very little of today's society.
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  This is not the direction of the conversation I was expecting.
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  Sorry, we went off on a tangent. I'm sorry.
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  We'll go over it a little bit because this is just
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  interesting. I think these are, I think these
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  are very complex and I think I want before I speak, I think I
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  would want more processing time to be able to speak to the
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  complexity of that this conversation deserves.
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  Yeah, good. Answer.
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  Good answer. It is.
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  It is. It's highly complex, but I'm
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  highly involved in the complexity.
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  I like. I love to talk about it because
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  I love to see, let's see what people's minds are out with it.
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  Anyway, moving on from that, I have a question that's very
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  relatable. How does it feel being a, you
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  know, a working psychologist or a, or a practical psychologist
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  with a neurodevelopmental condition that you could learn
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  about? Like, you know, because like I
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  go to see a psychologist or I go to see like a neurologist and
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  they'll tell me things about my brain and my actions and I'm
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  like, I learned something. What's it like being the person
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  to teach yourself? Like, what's that like?
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  What's like experience? I mean, I, I think first time, I
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  think that's why I became a psychologist because I was like
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  trying to understand and decode my experience of the world.
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  I think in that kind of classic and I, you don't have to be a
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  girl for this experience. Just in the research is often
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  like that autistic girl, but boys do this gender expansive
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  people do this. I was a social, I was a little
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  social scientist as a kid, like trying to figure out like what
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  what people were doing socially. And I've always been curious
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  about my brain. And I think that's what led me
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  to psychology. And I actually, I didn't come to
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  my diagnosis till after, right after I'd graduated with my
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  doctorate. So I think the reason I became a
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  psychologist was to try to decode my brain and understand
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  it. I love it because for me, once I
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  can understand what's happening in my brain or my body, I feel a
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  lot more grounded. I feel a lot more empowerment.
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  I'm like, oh, OK, I understand what's happening and I
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  understand this is sensor overload, or I understand my
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  nervous system has just flipped into a freeze mode.
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  OK, what am I going to do about it?
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  The ability to narrate through my experience has been so
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  grounding for me as a nerd divergent human.
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  Does that give you like the upper hand to manage certain
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  traits, you know, or certain kind of characteristics like so
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  say you're going through a meltdown or say you're going
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  through like a, a burnout. Are you able to kind of like,
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  you know, you can figure out what's happening?
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  Are you able to manage it a little bit more like?
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  I I think so and the reason I would say I think so is because
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  my reference point so I, I didn't start my doctorate till I
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  was already a parent of young children and is parent my
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  doctorate, I think at 31. So when I look back to how I
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  managed meltdowns like and partly also right parenting,
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  neuro divergent children handling their meltdowns, which
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  and what that would trigger me, my ability to cope has changed
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  so much with the training I have as a psychologist.
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  And so I would say it, it definitely comes in handy.
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  Particularly I lean a lot on kind of mindfulness traditions
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  like third wave, CBT wishes, acceptance commitment,
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  acceptance commitment therapy is one of those third waves.
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  I lean a lot on that as a way to self attune, kind of radically
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  self attune and to narrate, OK, here's what's happening for me
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  right now. My child's having meltdown that
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  just triggered A narrative and me about how I am as a mom, I'm
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  going to notice that versus getting totally hooked on it.
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  So yeah, there's a lot of tools that that come in hand that have
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  really helped me the last the last five or six years.
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  That is fascinating. And I think like was it is so
• 11:45
  cognitive behavioral therapy you referred to, right?
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  So this is it's considered 3rd wave.
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  CBT often gets a bad name for autistic people for
• 11:53
  understandably, I think a lot of us, it just makes us kind of get
• 11:57
  in our in our own heads. And yeah, the a lot of that
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  conditioning comes from CBT. So there's a third wave of CBT.
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  So ACT would fall into that. DBTI believe it's in that third
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  wave and these are it's the emphasis shifts.
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  So it's traditional CBT. It's about let me change my
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  thoughts, right? So I'm having a cognitive
• 12:21
  distortion. I'm seeing something.
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  Let me reality test this. There's actually pieces of that
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  I do like and I do use the, the thing you have to be careful of
• 12:30
  whenever you're working with a marginalized group, A lot of
• 12:32
  those thoughts are based on our past experiences of
• 12:35
  victimization, isolation. Yeah.
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  So if you start targeting some of those thoughts, it could
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  quickly invalidate that experience.
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  And then also with the narrow divergent brain like we just
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  tend to, I noticed from me when I try CBT, I'm like, let me
• 12:50
  reality test that thought and then I get an argument with the
• 12:52
  reality tester. So we spiral.
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  Or some of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Except potential too, right? Potential too, if if our brains,
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  I guess some people respond really well to it.
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  They're like, yeah, this is logical, this is linear.
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  This works for me. I really like act because it's
• 13:08
  not about changing the thought, it's about changing your
• 13:10
  relationship to the thought. I'm having a painful thought.
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  Can I distance from this? Can I notice it's a mental
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  script to my mind is producing in this moment.
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  So it's a current way of yeah, exactly.
• 13:21
  That's. Really interesting because like,
• 13:23
  you know, I don't look I mean I don't have any I think like CBT
• 13:27
  can and has been used for for kind of quite traumatic things,
• 13:30
  same as ABA, right? Any behavioral therapy can be
• 13:33
  used negatively. But I do believe that ABA now
• 13:35
  the modernized ABA is kind of carefully, it's completely
• 13:40
  different to how it was. And when I first heard about AB
• 13:42
  and I saw something that I was like, but but the stuff I'm
• 13:45
  seeing now coming out of the stage and I'm like, wow, like
• 13:47
  this is like crazy good stuff. Like it's actually helping
• 13:49
  people. It's it's not helpful.
• 13:50
  There's nothing kind of you're not oppressing anybody.
• 13:52
  Like it's really interesting. And I do believe that you move
• 13:55
  away from those stigmas from like the Phase 1, you know, roll
• 13:58
  outs and again, because it's ancient kind of tech, right?
• 14:01
  I think it was like Eric Lovas, I think his name is, that was
• 14:04
  the guy he was, or Lovas was like he was the original guy
• 14:07
  from the Halo therapy. And it's, it's an issue to say
• 14:11
  that because what you were talking about then reminded me a
• 14:15
  lot of like Buddhism and, and we, we seem to kind of like
• 14:19
  separate clerical from clinical or secular from from clinical,
• 14:24
  but I believe there isn't a separation there.
• 14:26
  I think that you, I think they, they, they changed terminology
• 14:30
  so people don't get like it's a whole, you know, Mumbo, Mumbo
• 14:34
  because the, yeah, the the, you know, in involuntary negative
• 14:39
  thought overcome by positive voluntary thought is the way the
• 14:43
  Buddha, right? And it's partly a full part.
• 14:45
  Yeah, I I love that you want that this is actually a critique
• 14:48
  I have of some of the Western psychologies like ACT is that
• 14:54
  parts of them This might not be Yeah, OK, I'm just going to say
• 14:58
  it and then I'll see how I feel about it.
• 14:59
  Saying that I they have appropriated a lot of Eastern
• 15:02
  spirituality. I think some would say borrowed
• 15:04
  from it and I think some people the way that they integrated
• 15:09
  honors Eastern spirituality better than others.
• 15:11
  But I think in the kind of crude way that some of these
• 15:14
  psychological interventions are taught, it is more of an
• 15:17
  appropriation of Eastern spirituality.
• 15:21
  But absolutely, these come from Eastern spiritual traditions, a
• 15:25
  lot of these mindfulness based practices that we've been like
• 15:28
  psychologized, which I definitely have complex feelings
• 15:31
  about. Yeah, I, I think you know,
• 15:33
  because like I learned a lot about Buddhism and Buddha, you
• 15:36
  know, the Buddhists up. Like I think, you know, he, he
• 15:41
  the voter was more of a scientist or a psychologist than
• 15:43
  he was a spiritual being. What I think he, he tried to, to
• 15:47
  say was that if you, if you can just allow yourself to be
• 15:50
  present and be a person of the earth, of the Mondial, then you
• 15:54
  can resonate with that frequency of, of life.
• 15:57
  Kind of like the plants grow and the rainfalls and, you know,
• 16:00
  rabbits chase mice and stuff just happens.
• 16:03
  Nobody's conscious in making anything happen.
• 16:04
  It just is, you know what I mean?
• 16:06
  Well, I think partly like if we go back to pre modernity, people
• 16:10
  were just more integrative thinkers.
• 16:12
  So actually I have a another degree in masters of divinity.
• 16:15
  So I studied like world religions and oh really?
• 16:20
  Oh, wow. But yeah, like before modernity
• 16:24
  hit people like spiritual leaders, spiritual traditions
• 16:28
  were psychological. Like there, there wasn't this
• 16:32
  division that we now have of like spiritual, psychological.
• 16:36
  And I'm really drawn to integrative thinkers and
• 16:38
  integrator integrative ways of being in the world.
• 16:41
  I feel like Deepak Chopra is kind of one of those characters
• 16:44
  who kind of does blend that together again.
• 16:46
  And, you know, and it's, it's true, I think like, you know, I
• 16:49
  think more of a, it was more egosystical that kind of created
• 16:52
  this massive separation between spirituality and, and, and kind
• 16:55
  of like the, the clinical aspect of it.
• 16:57
  And, and there's so many different kind of, you know,
• 17:00
  you, you see this time and time again, you know, the same type
• 17:03
  of thing where you're saying like, well, even even down to
• 17:06
  like, you know, I wrote a book on theology and, and even, I
• 17:10
  say, I think I see this in my first book, like, you know,
• 17:12
  Scientology's main principle of Dianetics, right?
• 17:16
  You, you, you must have studied this, right?
• 17:17
  So auditing is basically like a, it's just a counselling therapy.
• 17:23
  And that comes from the Buddha, like, you know what I mean?
• 17:25
  And, and they do a lot of these, what the hell they call it one
• 17:28
  hand clapping the cones, Buddhist cones, right where you
• 17:32
  say, what's the sound of one hand clapping?
• 17:34
  And so the Buddha asks you like, what's that one?
• 17:36
  And W like, I have no idea, but that's not what he's asking you,
• 17:39
  but what is asking you to dig deep from.
• 17:41
  And as you dig deep to find out what the sound one had got, you
• 17:43
  start to unravel things and you start to think about yourself
• 17:46
  and become a bit more aware. And it's funny because that's
• 17:49
  what when I was reading about Scientology, that's exactly what
• 17:52
  they adopted. But it's not just them.
• 17:53
  It's any kind of any religion office kind of counselling has
• 17:57
  taken that on board all the way back to kind of like, you know,
• 18:00
  Eastern, an Asian kind of philosophy.
• 18:02
  But it's absolutely fantastic. It's it's but but you look now
• 18:05
  like all the therapy classes, I go through forces and they're
• 18:08
  always pushing them these, you know, mindfulness, but but a
• 18:11
  space, you know, like all of it is.
• 18:14
  I think, OK, this is old and I don't like to try, I don't like
• 18:17
  to try and incite research that I don't have at the tip of my
• 18:19
  head. But I, I feel like I saw some
• 18:21
  research actually about how when you divide mindfulness from the
• 18:25
  spiritual traditions, like if you don't essentially capture
• 18:29
  the energy and the essence that comes with it, and if you make
• 18:32
  it an intervention, it's actually less impactful.
• 18:34
  Like you, it's because it is a, it's a philosophical way of
• 18:38
  being in the world. And so if you're just like, OK,
• 18:41
  learn this mindfulness and it's going to help with your anxiety
• 18:44
  as an intervention, that's really different than like,
• 18:46
  let's talk about how you experience yourself, how you
• 18:49
  experience the world, your philosophy of being that's
• 18:52
  substantive, that's going to stick.
• 18:54
  Yeah, 100% because it's, it's feedback reinforced because you,
• 18:58
  you do feel the ground beneath you, you know what I mean?
• 19:01
  You can see that the desk is there.
• 19:03
  I think there's it's so it's fascinating.
• 19:05
  We've got a crazy tension here. But I think it's all relevant
• 19:08
  because I did, I did a couple of real videos and fix up videos
• 19:12
  all about like autistic individuals and spirituality and
• 19:15
  not saying that all autistic individuals are spiritual.
• 19:17
  But what I'm saying is that the interest and the idea, because
• 19:19
  we can, we can think in those abstract ways.
• 19:22
  You know what I mean? Yeah, well, and I, it's
• 19:25
  interesting, I had a reflection few years back, so theology,
• 19:29
  religion was the absolutely special interest of mine for
• 19:32
  decades, but it's kind of eased up since discovering I was
• 19:36
  autistic. One of my takes is at some point
• 19:39
  I realized I can't figure out myself fully, but if I can
• 19:42
  figure out like existentialism and philosophy, maybe I'll feel
• 19:45
  more oriented in my existence. And it's been really interesting
• 19:49
  as I've discovered I'm autistic and ADHD and integrated those
• 19:52
  identities, the existential dread has lessened for me, which
• 19:56
  I, I just, I kind of watched that dialectic and I was like,
• 19:58
  that's really interesting because I spent so much in my
• 20:02
  20s and existential angst. Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of
• 20:06
  people can relate to that kind of experience because especially
• 20:08
  if you're autistic and ADHD, you have this kind of like, you
• 20:11
  know, like and, and it does, it does play.
• 20:13
  It does play on you. So I want to know because we are
• 20:17
  really outside, but I want to know about the book.
• 20:19
  What's this book you've got coming out?
• 20:20
  Like you said, you were writing a book.
• 20:21
  Are you? How about coming out?
• 20:22
  Yeah. It's coming out in March.
• 20:24
  It's so I don't know if you've seen Doctor Sasha's like
• 20:26
  self-care for ADHD people. It came out a couple years ago.
• 20:30
  It's within publisher and they reached out to me and they're
• 20:32
  like, we want to write a self-care book for autistic
• 20:34
  people. And I was like, that's awesome.
• 20:38
  So I just just this week finished final edits and it's
• 20:42
  the way it's written. It's written in a way to
• 20:44
  actually, I feel like it's very ADHD friendly.
• 20:46
  It's in little like, Oh yeah. So it's like over 100 tips
• 20:52
  clumped into different categories.
• 20:53
  So like physical self-care, social self-care, relational
• 20:56
  self-care, emotional self-care. So yeah, that's that's the
• 21:01
  project. Dude, you missed out.
• 21:03
  Spiritual self-care now only joking.
• 21:05
  No, I like I That's funny. I did, I have thought about that
• 21:09
  because I actually in my past before pre diagnosis, I actually
• 21:15
  wrote a lot in the integration of spirituality and psychology.
• 21:18
  That was kind of my academic career base.
• 21:22
  I think it's so I do want to talk about spiritual self-care.
• 21:25
  It gets so tricky because a lot of us also like religious drama.
• 21:28
  I. Was going to say the same thing.
• 21:29
  You can't. Yeah.
• 21:30
  It's just so difficult. Yeah, yes, you know, and I think
• 21:34
  like when we're all on a journey like and you know, people will
• 21:36
  they will come to a time when they kind of will want to read
• 21:39
  and research about it. But again, you can't just you
• 21:42
  can't just kind of generalize it because it becomes quite sticky.
• 21:45
  So how do people find out more about you?
• 21:47
  How can they buy the booklet us out?
• 21:49
  Like tell us, where do we find you online?
• 21:51
  The best way to find me is through my website,
• 21:53
  nerdivergentinsights.com and that's that's where I've got
• 21:57
  weekly blog blog posts that come out Instagram.
• 22:01
  If you're on Instagram, I create a photographics there.
• 22:04
  You can pre-order my book from my website.
• 22:07
  I also have I have a podcast called Divergent conversations
• 22:10
  with which with a fellow autistic ADHD therapist and we
• 22:14
  host weekly conversations where we kind of like analyzed
• 22:18
  ourselves while also talking about all these things.
• 22:20
  So it's so you. All you're missing is a brain
• 22:24
  scan like live brain scan. That would be amazing.
• 22:28
  Oh my gosh, that would be amazing.
• 22:31
  That's called diversifications. So you can find us there.
• 22:35
  Yeah, I think I have a newsletter, so that's probably
• 22:38
  the best way. If people want to reach out to
• 22:41
  me. I work hard to respond to people
• 22:43
  on many who e-mail me from my new newsletter.
• 22:47
  Otherwise it's kind of hard to get a hold of me.
• 22:48
  I've I've recently created some very healthy boundaries for
• 22:52
  myself with social. Oh goodness.
• 22:55
  Well, look, if you could, if you could send me an e-mail with
• 22:57
  every everywhere who can get you.
• 22:59
  I'll put it into the the description of this video, guys,
• 23:01
  and also in the show notes of this podcast.
• 23:03
  So you can, you know, link through to to her podcast or you
• 23:05
  can check out all of Megan's cool stuff.
• 23:07
  I think this is super dope and this has been a fascinating
• 23:09
  conversation. Like it's been nothing like I've
• 23:12
  ever had on this show. Really.
• 23:15
  Yeah, like, like. I'm curious about that.
• 23:18
  Yeah, people are scared to talk about spirituality.
• 23:20
  We are. And I think that like especially
• 23:23
  when it crosses to psychology because people want it as far
• 23:25
  away from each other as possible.
• 23:26
  And I don't think that's true. I think they're one of the same
• 23:28
  thing. But but that's just me and
• 23:29
  that's just how I think about it.
• 23:30
  But it's been fascinating time of conversation.
• 23:32
  So, Megan, thank you so much for having that conversation.
• 23:36
  Absolutely, Thanks so much for having me on and I I've enjoyed
• 23:39
  this this conversation. Amazing.
• 23:41
  Thank you.