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Transcript

“That Sounds Like An Endorsement” — 'Mud Season' Episode 3 · Politics Between Us

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, everyone.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Allison B.A.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in my 50s.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I live here in Maine, and I have decades of civil rights work behind me.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Luca DeAngelis.
• 0:10
  I'm in my 20s,
• 0:11
  living in New York City,
• 0:12
  and I'm just trying to figure things out.
• 0:14
  Luca and I have been talking about politics and our personal
• 0:16
  lives for over a decade now.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and now we're bringing that conversation to you.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: This is a project about politics,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: purpose,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: and how to live a good life across generations,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: across disagreements,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: and across 30 years.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is Politics Between Us.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to episode three of Mud Season,
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: our limited series on the main U.S.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Senate primary race.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Today, we're going to be sitting down with Lucas St. Clair.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've been really looking forward to this episode, Allison.
• 0:49
  Lucas has been one of the kind of big political players in the
• 0:52
  state of Maine over
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: the last decade.
• 0:54
  And he also has been a central figure in this big conservation
• 0:58
  battle in northern Maine.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess this is like kind of earlier in the 2000s now at this point,
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: but his mom,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Roxanne Quimby,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: the founder of Burt's Bees,
• 1:07
  she bought these large tracts of land in northern Maine with
• 1:11
  the goal of turning
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: them into a national monument.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: I remember the battle so vividly.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was like all in the news.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:18
  for a lot of people who lived in Northern Maine or actually for
• 1:21
  a lot of people in
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maine,
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: just generally,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: it felt like a threat to their very,
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: like their very way of life.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Luca, do you even remember that?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: How were you like six years?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess it's hard to pinpoint exactly when it started.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Were you born?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I guess I don't think I was born when she started buying the land.
• 1:37
  But I do remember ambiently hearing about this battle from my
• 1:41
  dad and my uncle,
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: who's involved in some land conservation stuff.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like,
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: as a little kid who loved running around in the woods,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: I was like,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: National Park?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't think I understood.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: There was this really huge backlash in Northern Maine about this.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: And when Lucas took over from his mom to try to get the park through,
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: he was walking into some very,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: very hostile environment.
• 2:04
  And I'm really curious what it was like to enter into
• 2:08
  communities that were that opposed to him.
• 2:10
  I wouldn't do it,
• 2:11
  but he turned it around and he won,
• 2:15
  which is pretty awesome.
• 2:17
  And in 2016,
• 2:18
  Katahdin Woods and Waters became a national monument under
• 2:21
  Obama.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually remember that.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: maybe it was that success that led him because,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: right after that,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: he ran for Congress in the second CD and he lost in the primary,
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: but he ran and he certainly he went right back into the fire,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: like one hostile environment to the next,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: you'd say.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Second CD being the second congressional district here in Maine,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: which is this like super rural,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: politically independent,
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: hard to pin down place in in northern inland Maine.
• 2:50
  Do you actually know that it is the largest congressional
• 2:53
  district east of the Mississippi?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: I did actually know that because I actually grew up here, Allison.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, easy.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I was a geography bee nerd.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: But anyways.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I never knew that about you.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was third in the state GOB in eighth grade.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: GOB?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: What is a GOB?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Is that like a spelling bee?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's a spelling bee, but for like geography questions.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I used to know every capital of every country in the world.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: We got to put a pin in that, but we're coming back to it.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways, back to Lucas.
• 3:25
  He ran in this congressional primary for the second
• 3:28
  congressional district here in Maine.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: He lost that primary to Jared Golden,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: who,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 3:33
  went on to win that seat in the general election and still
• 3:36
  holds it today.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm really interested in how Lucas thinks about that campaign now.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he probably learned a lot about Maine and Maine voters and
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: given how much we love to talk about Maine voters and what's happening,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it'll be great.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, think about it.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to get to talk to someone who he knows rural Maine.
• 3:53
  He definitely knows how institutional power sort of works in
• 3:57
  the state and the Democratic Party.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: He also is going to just like have a particularly,
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 4:02
  powerful insight on what's happening right now and what you and
• 4:05
  I like to talk
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: about a lot,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: which is the U.S.
• 4:07
  Senate Democratic primary between Graham Plattner and Governor
• 4:10
  Janet Mills.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think Lukash will have a really...
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: nuanced take on this race and the candidates.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know we love nuance, so I can't wait.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Before we start,
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: everyone,
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: make sure to stick around after the interview to check out Age Bait.
• 4:27
  That's our segment where Luca brings me something from the
• 4:29
  internet and asks me if
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I even understand what the heck is going on.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and what it means culturally and politically.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was just about to say that.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was just about to say that more important point.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Alright.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, last thought, our disclaimer.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: I am a faculty member at Colby College and Luca works there too,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: but the views expressed here are entirely our own.
• 4:52
  This show is a personal project and is not produced or endorsed
• 4:55
  by the college.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, now let's get to the interview.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get into it.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Lucas.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: We are so excited to have you here at Politics Between Us.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Allison.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to be here.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Luca, it's nice to meet you.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, lovely to meet you, Lucas.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, Lucas, you are in lots of powerful spaces right now.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: You run your family foundation.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: You are the chair of the Trust for Public Land.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: You are involved in democratic politics.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: You seem pretty fancy to me.
• 5:46
  You're pretty fancy,
• 5:46
  but I know enough about you to know that you didn't always
• 5:49
  start fancy.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Take us back.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like you didn't grow up this way.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't grow up in the halls of power.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: How did it all start?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: No, I didn't.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: I still don't feel fancy, but I did grow up in humble beginnings.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: My parents were back to the Landers in 1972.
• 6:06
  The Transamerica building was finished in San Francisco where
• 6:09
  they were living.
• 6:10
  My mom had just graduated from the San Francisco Art Institute
• 6:13
  and they were like,
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: San Francisco is ruined.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: We're out of here.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: And they had enough money to buy land in Piscataquis County in Maine.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's where they ended up.
• 6:22
  And they built a cabin back in the woods with no running water
• 6:25
  or electricity and
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: planted a garden and got some beehives.
• 6:28
  And my twin sister and I were born there and we lived there for
• 6:32
  the first four
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: years of our life.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: And my parents separated and I kind of bounced around rural areas.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: towns in Piscataquis County.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:40
  So for people who don't know much about these towns,
• 6:42
  right,
• 6:42
  these are super rural communities.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: What was it like to actually grow up in that community?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: It was interesting where,
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: when I was younger,
• 6:51
  my parents' community was made up of people at the Unitarian
• 6:54
  Universalist Church
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: and the co-op.
• 6:57
  And it was a group of people that had all made a very conscious
• 7:00
  decision to move to
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: rural Maine to live in a
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: subsistence lifestyle.
• 7:04
  So there was a lot of intellectuals and artists and a
• 7:08
  cooperative communal living
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: was very much embraced.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so I knew nothing other than that.
• 7:14
  And so it wasn't unusual not to have electricity or television
• 7:17
  or running water.
• 7:18
  And that all felt relatively normal until I started to go to
• 7:24
  middle school.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: In middle school,
• 7:28
  I started to make friends outside of this group of people that
• 7:32
  I was growing up
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: with and started to recognize the differences that our family,
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: the ways in which our family was living.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we were not from Maine.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: So there was a sense of like being from away.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I always felt a little bit of like an outsider.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: It was also amazing.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 7:50
  I would go get on my bike and I would ride till it got dark and
• 7:55
  eventually someone
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: would recognize me and
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: put my bike in the back of their truck and drive me home.
• 8:02
  And it was perfectly acceptable to just be in a community where
• 8:06
  everyone was sort
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: of looking out for each other.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: And politics wasn't something that got in the way of a communal spirit.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: The wealth differences wasn't something.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: It was just, you know, it was a small town and it was all hands on deck.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: But also during that time,
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: after my parents separated,
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: my mom met a beekeeper named Bert Chavitz.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: He was selling honey out in front of the Dexter shoe factory.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: He picked my mom up hitchhiking one night.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: My mom worked at a restaurant.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: We didn't have a car.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: She would hitchhike home.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: Bert picked her up one night and they hit it off.
• 8:38
  And she started thinking about ways to use Bert's honey and
• 8:43
  Bert's wax to make
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: products that she could sell and she could sell at local craft fairs.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: And that is how Burt's Bees started.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: It started in a one-room schoolhouse in Parkman,
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: Maine,
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: on a wood stove,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: melting wax and making candles.
• 8:58
  But it also happened to be kind of a perfect time for a
• 9:01
  business like that,
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: which was natural gifts.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: It evolved into natural skincare.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: Burt's Bees and Whole Foods started at about the same time.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so it started to grow relatively fast.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: So by the time I was done with middle school,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: My mom had enough money to send me to boarding school.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so I left Guilford, Maine and went to Gould Academy in Western Maine.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: And again,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: it was sort of that same outsider feeling being like,
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 9:27
  now we have money and more money than a lot of people in this
• 9:31
  community in
• 9:32
  Piscataquis County and started being perceived as wealthy kids
• 9:36
  because we were
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: going to boarding school.
• 9:38
  But when we got to boarding school,
• 9:39
  we were like,
• 9:39
  oh no,
• 9:40
  these are wealthy kids,
• 9:41
  right?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's a totally different level of wealth.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so again, it was like kind of being on the outside coming.
• 9:46
  There wasn't a lot of people from Guilford,
• 9:48
  Maine coming to Gould Academy.
• 9:49
  And so kind of figured out how to make my way in that community
• 9:53
  and that upbringing as well.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: But all the while spending time in rural Maine.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: so you mentioned,
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 9:59
  thinking of yourself in some sense as an outsider in these
• 10:02
  different spaces.
• 10:03
  You also mentioned that politics was like kind of not as much
• 10:07
  of an impact in these
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: early stages of your life.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't see it in the community as much.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a first political memory?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: I...
• 10:18
  You know,
• 10:18
  politics was like how much of a Red Sox fan you were basically
• 10:23
  growing up.
• 10:24
  And I know that may sound weird,
• 10:26
  but it was like that was the thing that held people together.
• 10:29
  That was sort of like the communal spirit and where people
• 10:33
  organized around.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: But,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 10:35
  I remember Charlie Prey was running for state Senate in
• 10:41
  Piscataquis County,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: and he had yard signs that said Prey for Maine Senate.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember thinking that was hilarious because I was like,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: there must be a problem with the Senate because we've got to pray.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: We've got to pray for it.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember my mom having to explain to me,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: no,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: like his last name is pray and he's running for this legislative body.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: And the
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Senate as part of that.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, oh, that's interesting.
• 11:05
  But I didn't really think about how rules were made at that
• 11:08
  point through elected officials.
• 11:10
  And then I turned 18 the same year President Clinton was
• 11:16
  running for office.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I voted for Clinton right out of high school.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: That was my first memory of mine.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: participating.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: But for the most part, it wasn't really part of my upbringing.
• 11:27
  I didn't really think about it much until I was in my late
• 11:32
  teens and early 20s.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: So for people who don't know the full story, you're starting
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: and get into it a little bit.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Your mom founded Burt's Bees.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then at some point after selling Burt's Bees,
• 11:45
  she started to buy 100,000 acres or more in Maine's northern
• 11:50
  woods and kind of set
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: out to preserve this land near Katahdin as a national park.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was really deeply controversial at the time.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people in the area viewed your mom not as a benefactor,
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: but as this outsider,
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: despite spending much of her life in that area.
• 12:07
  And then eventually she handed off this effort to preserve the
• 12:10
  land to you.
• 12:13
  But you kind of inherited this issue that was not really just
• 12:17
  about conservation.
• 12:18
  It was also about trust with the community and the people
• 12:22
  around the park.
• 12:23
  How did it feel like when you first walked into that issue and
• 12:26
  decided to take it over?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it felt really exciting to answer the question most directly,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: but to give a little bit of context,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: when I left Maine,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: I was working in the hospitality industry.
• 12:39
  I went to trade school,
• 12:41
  went to culinary school,
• 12:42
  spent 15 years working in
• 12:43
  the hospitality industry and was just kind of getting burned
• 12:46
  out from it.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I was living in Seattle at the time.
• 12:50
  My wife is from Seattle and I was reading these newspaper
• 12:53
  articles about the
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: challenges my mom was having.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: It was so controversial and I still subscribe to the Bangor Daily News.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was reading the Bangor paper and was like,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: oh my gosh,
• 13:03
  like people hate my mom and this is so controversial and seems
• 13:06
  like such a
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: nightmare.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: And my mom had a board meeting.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: President Obama put her on the board of the National Park Foundation.
• 13:14
  And they had a board meeting out in the Olympic Peninsula in
• 13:18
  western Washington.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so she invited me to join that meeting.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: I did.
• 13:23
  And at the time,
• 13:24
  the Secretary of Interior,
• 13:25
  Ken Salazar,
• 13:27
  was the chair of the board.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: And he said something that was super interesting to me.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: He said,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: Roxanne,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: which is my mom's name,
• 13:36
  you need to think about this national park effort as if the
• 13:41
  concept of the park is
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: running for U.S.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Senate.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Imagine what would have to happen.
• 13:49
  And Ken Salazar was a senator from Colorado,
• 13:51
  and so he had run for Senate,
• 13:53
  knew what it took.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: You have to do some polling to see if it's a popular idea.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: You have to develop messaging based on that polling.
• 13:59
  You have to identify messengers that can talk to the people
• 14:03
  that need to be
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: convinced that this should happen.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: You need to think about this as a Senate campaign.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so after that board meeting,
• 14:10
  my mom and I are driving back to Seattle so she could catch a
• 14:13
  flight back to Maine.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, you know, mom, this sounds really interesting to me.
• 14:17
  You know,
• 14:17
  I'm interested enough in politics now that I would like to
• 14:21
  engage in this.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: I was born up here.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: I hunt.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: I fish.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a male.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think potentially that could help move the needle on this.
• 14:33
  And if we could work together to develop that campaign and
• 14:37
  develop the apparatus to
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: actually work on it,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think we could do it.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: So when she said yes, I was really excited.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: Back to the original answer.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: I was like,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: this is an opportunity to build something that I've never done before,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: to get back to the place that I love and call home.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Now I'm getting to go and take people into this amazing place.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: Let's go.
• 15:01
  And so it was really just a huge amount of enthusiasm and a
• 15:05
  huge amount of
• 15:07
  naivete like i had no clue what i was getting myself into
• 15:11
  that's what i wanted to
• 15:11
  ask you because when you're sitting here saying you're excited
• 15:14
  i was like wow
• 15:14
  that's a new side of you i mean i know you're optimistic but to
• 15:17
  see given the
• 15:18
  animosity that was happening that says a lot but it sounds like
• 15:22
  maybe you weren't
• 15:22
  fully prepared for the level of distrust that was happening
• 15:27
  like was it a big
• 15:28
  surprise when you talk about what happened when you came back
• 15:30
  to maine to start
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: this
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I came back with a really open philosophy.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: I wrote an op-ed in the Bangor paper and said,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: anyone that wants to talk about this,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: get in touch.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Here's how to get in touch with me.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'll have any conversation with anybody at any time.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I was really starting in listening mode.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't trying to convince anybody of anything.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: Basically, I was starting by saying, OK, that idea wasn't popular.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: Let's reset.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Let's have conversations.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: And let's see what this community needs.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: And our family owns this asset of 100,000 acres of land.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: How could that land best benefit this community?
• 16:10
  And I also was very clear about the recognition of the
• 16:13
  challenges those communities had faced.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: at the time,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: Great Northern Paper was still operating the East Millinocket Mill,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: but barely.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: And the Millinocket Mill had closed.
• 16:24
  When I was growing up,
• 16:25
  those were the two largest paper mills in the world.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Millinocket was called the Magic City.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: It had the highest per capita income in the state of Maine.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: And now, you know, half the population had left.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: The young people had left.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: The mills were closed.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: clear that I understand the challenges that the community was facing.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: we're seeing that all around the country still play out in rural America.
• 16:49
  People are pissed off because they feel like the energy and the
• 16:53
  investment is going
• 16:54
  to cities and going to college educated people and rural
• 16:58
  America has been left
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: behind.
• 17:00
  And that was very much the feeling when I showed up in the
• 17:02
  Katahdin region.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 17:04
  I think it's really interesting because I feel like I'm not
• 17:06
  sure that Democrats or
• 17:08
  progressives were thinking a lot about the pain of rural
• 17:10
  communities back in those
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: days of the 2012 to the 2016 when you're doing this.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've always admired that part of you that you were just like this.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: this like six foot five tall guy,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: just like,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: here I am at Dysart's,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: which is Maine's like favorite truck stop.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'll have coffee with anyone.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I'm curious, where did that come from in you?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you seem open to talking to anybody.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Was that just who you are or was it political calculus?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: A little bit of both, but probably leaning more toward who I am.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up going to craft fairs with my mom every weekend,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: talking to people that came in the booth.
• 17:47
  And as a teenage kid in high school,
• 17:50
  I was selling women's health and beauty aids.
• 17:55
  And I really had to reach to be able to feel like people would
• 18:01
  take me seriously.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was sort of my programming in a lot of ways.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I just really love people.
• 18:06
  I'm really curious about what people are thinking and doing and
• 18:10
  what affects their behavior.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: So that was a big part of it.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then I felt like the Katahdin region especially is pretty isolated.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: And Maine in general has a sense of isolation.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's very parochial.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: People don't move around a lot.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so...
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: these towns were feeling like no one's coming to listen to us.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: When anyone shows up here, it's extractive.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: They want to take something from us.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: They want to take our paper mill.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: They want to take our trees.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: They want to build a dam.
• 18:36
  They want to do something that's not going to help this
• 18:39
  community in the long term.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so I felt like, well, this is a place that needs some love.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: And if I could show up with joy and love and openness,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: then perhaps conversations can come from that.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I really didn't
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: did and do care what people want in rural Maine.
• 18:57
  And I think people that have been living there for generations
• 19:01
  have the best ideas
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: for what they want and need.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: What's interesting to me is that I think a lot of people's intuition now,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: people maybe in my generation,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: their intuition is like when they see a lot of hate,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: like people run away from that now,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: And you kind of ran right towards it.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Was there a moment when you're like,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm actually making ground here,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: like I'm breaking down this hate a little bit?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there were a few times.
• 19:32
  One of the things that also was really surprising when I
• 19:34
  started working on it was
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: how much social media was influencing communications among communities.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't realize that
• 19:41
  towns were talking to each other just through Facebook until I
• 19:46
  showed up in the Catan region.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: And someone was like, hey, there's a Facebook page called Ban Roxanne.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: You should go look at it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I would look at it and there were people talking,
• 19:55
  just saying crazy stuff like Photoshopping my face and like
• 19:59
  making me look like
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hitler and just,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: really kind of crazy things.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it seemed very strange to me.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: It didn't seem, it wasn't impactful like, oh, that's hurtful.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: It just felt like, oh, that's strange.
• 20:10
  why that's happening that might be your disposition though
• 20:13
  because i think a lot of
• 20:14
  people would be like okay yeah so i you know but i was like
• 20:17
  okay there are some
• 20:18
  pretty active users on facebook and so i would find out where
• 20:20
  they live because
• 20:21
  it's a small town and i would go to their house and i did that
• 20:25
  to this one woman
• 20:26
  one day she said something crazy about me on facebook and so i
• 20:29
  just drove to her
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: house and knocked on the door and she came out and answered and was like
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: She looked shocked.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, oh, no, no, no.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's safe.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not here to, you know, do anything.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: I just want to understand better.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why you say these things?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: And she was so sweet.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: The first thing she did was call her husband,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: who was working at a machine shop in town,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: and was like,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: can you come home?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: Just so I feel safer.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: Which he did.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: And she invited me in.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: And we sat around her dining room table.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, look, every time I Google...
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: why national parks are bad.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: Here are the things that I find.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it was all kinds of stuff, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: They banned snowmobiling,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: they banned hunting,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: all of the different ways in which parks can be harmful.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, have you ever Googled why national parks are good?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: And she was like, no, I never have.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, let's see what happens.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, let's Google it right now and see what comes up.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: And beautiful pictures and Ken Burns and all these great stories.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, look,
• 21:26
  The way you're getting your information is incumbent on the
• 21:30
  questions that you're asking.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: So let's ask different questions.
• 21:34
  And rather than having conversations with each other on a
• 21:37
  computer screen,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: let's have them in real life.
• 21:40
  Because I don't think you would say the things that you said
• 21:43
  about me last week right now.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: now that we're sitting across the table,
• 21:48
  now you can like feel the body temperature raise in the room if
• 21:51
  we start to get a
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: push on sensitive things.
• 21:54
  And leaving that house that day,
• 21:56
  I was like,
• 21:56
  oh,
• 21:57
  I like touched the live wire.
• 21:59
  You know,
• 21:59
  I just felt the electricity of like,
• 22:01
  it was scary as hell to do.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: First of all,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't like just nonchalantly walking up to a stranger's house,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: but I left feeling like this is what needs to happen.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: We need to have conversations in person.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: We need to understand each other.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: We need to recognize that we have a ton in common.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Let's think about
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: the 90% of the things that we have common and work toward those goals,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: and then figure out how we can make this work on the margins.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: And that, so we started doing that much more.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: I would go to the high school gymnasium and have these,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: we call them science fairs,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: like put out placards that say like,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: here are the top 15 questions that people ask about a park.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: And people would come into the gym.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: And at first the,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 22:43
  the cops would stand outside and make sure that it wasn't going
• 22:46
  to be violent.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: But after a while that went away.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: After a while,
• 22:50
  the polling started to show people were more supportive and it
• 22:53
  just calmed
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: everything down.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: And we started to see success.
• 22:58
  One of the reasons why I'm so interested in what you did with
• 23:01
  the National Monument
• 23:02
  is it does suggest to me there is still hope for that old
• 23:06
  school little p politics
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: where you actually lead with curiosity.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: You lead with like, how are we going to find solutions, right?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: As opposed to I know the answer,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: which is what a lot of politics is like,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: here's my talking points.
• 23:19
  here's my solution,
• 23:21
  without even knowing necessarily what is the real problem.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like the National Monument was just an incredible,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's why I've always admired you,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: like you actually did the hard work.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, democracy is slow.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a lot of conversation and
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Social media has really gotten in the way.
• 23:37
  And I think what you did in Maine still serves as a really – a
• 23:41
  great reminder that
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: this doesn't have to be – there are other ways to do politics.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know, Luca.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Do I sound like my typical like Pollyannaish like old lady?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree.
• 23:50
  And that was one of my takeaways from like reading so much
• 23:53
  about you,
• 23:53
  Lucas.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: But –
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: I also was like a little bit sad because like,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: it seems so like local Maine specific,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: like you didn't have to change that many hearts and minds.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was the second congressional district of Maine,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: basically,
• 24:09
  which is you probably met most of the people who lived near or
• 24:13
  adjacent to the
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: national monument.
• 24:16
  So it made me a little sad to think about like,
• 24:19
  how can we do this on a larger scale?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 24:21
  there were 9,000 people in northern Penobscot County in the
• 24:24
  seven communities
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: around the park,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: and I probably met most of them.
• 24:27
  And the second congressional district is made up of small towns
• 24:31
  where people turn
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: out to listen,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: and they still gather in Grange halls,
• 24:36
  and they still gather in high school gymnasiums to talk and
• 24:39
  listen to each other.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a possibility of it.
• 24:42
  But I think it still can be done at scale if enough people are
• 24:46
  going into the practice of...
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: communicating honestly and directly and in person.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I know.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree that Luca, you should be supportive of this.
• 24:55
  You're the one who works in a bar and keeps talking about how
• 24:57
  we need to be like
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: spending more time together,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 25:00
  Like your generation,
• 25:01
  like you have to get off your phones and,
• 25:04
  and be in community.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: You also have to get off.
• 25:06
  I assume the person who was writing nasty things on Facebook
• 25:09
  about you was over 60.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: No, no.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like Luca, I think you're so, you're absolutely right.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: old people are using social media like crazy,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: and they're being affected by it in adverse ways.
• 25:23
  And it's leading to isolation and loneliness and all of the
• 25:28
  things that we know now
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: that are contributing to some real challenges in American culture.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a perfect segue to where we wanted to go next.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk first about your run for the U.S.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Congress,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: which that was after you had actually won,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 25:43
  And President Obama had declared the Katahdin Woods and Waters
• 25:46
  as a national monument.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then you survived even a challenge by the Trump administration.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you had this great success.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you decided to run for Congress,
• 25:56
  which I think from the outside either suggests you definitely
• 25:58
  have a very strong
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: sense of civic purpose or a very high tolerance for suffering.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not really sure which.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a great question.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I, you know, I really do have a civic purpose.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: I do feel the importance of civics.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: And when I was working on the park,
• 26:16
  Congressman Poliquin was representing the second district and
• 26:19
  was doing a really,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: really bad job.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: He wasn't really doing anything to support the people in the district.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was so frustrated by him.
• 26:28
  And I was feeling the need to help represent rural Mainers in
• 26:33
  Congress in a way
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: that I felt like I had a unique ability.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: to.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that was the motivation to run.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I ran into the Democratic buzzsaw.
• 26:43
  There was already a candidate that the Democratic Party had
• 26:48
  seen as their person.
• 26:50
  And while there was a lot of conversation with me saying they
• 26:53
  weren't going to put
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: their thumb on the scale,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: I
• 26:56
  progressive movement building in the second CD really was in
• 27:00
  support of my
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: competitor in the primary.
• 27:02
  And that was frustrating because I felt like it wasn't really
• 27:05
  aligned with a
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: progressive viewpoint.
• 27:08
  And we've seen that play out a bit because Jared Golden was the
• 27:12
  competition in the primary.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: He ultimately won the primary and then beat
• 27:15
  Congressman Poliquin to become the member from the second CD
• 27:19
  and was much more
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: conservative than I think many people thought,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: at least when he was running.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: But regardless of all that,
• 27:27
  I saw a bit of a disconnect between what people need and what
• 27:33
  they think their
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: members of Congress can do for them.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Knocking on doors,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: people were like,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: there's a pothole at the end of my driveway that I want fixed.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I want you to go to Washington and impeach Donald Trump.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: That was what people were talking to me at the doors about.
• 27:48
  And I thought,
• 27:49
  oh boy,
• 27:51
  I don't know if people understand how a legislative body works.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that was really tricky.
• 27:57
  And it was also very clear that there are communities that have
• 28:03
  been left behind in
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: so many ways.
• 28:07
  And there was so much anger stemming out of these communities
• 28:12
  that at one point
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: were thriving and now they weren't.
• 28:16
  And the answers to revitalize the economy and to rebuild the
• 28:23
  infrastructure
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: was going to take a lot of investment,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: especially federal investment,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: and it wasn't coming to them.
• 28:29
  And they were looking at the fact that we had been at war in
• 28:34
  the Middle East for a
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: long time,
• 28:36
  and so much money was being spent on making this idea of free
• 28:41
  college or paying for
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: student debt.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: If you worked as a fisherman your whole life,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: And all of a sudden,
• 28:48
  you couldn't make the payments on your truck because of federal
• 28:51
  regulations around
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: the fishing catch limits and a variety of other different things.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you weren't getting any help.
• 29:01
  And the people that had gone to college and taken out big loans
• 29:05
  were getting their
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: loans forgiven.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: That felt like a real punch.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it was just like,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: People are really angry for those reasons.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't blame them, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it makes perfect sense.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't feel fair.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: What's so interesting to me,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Lucas,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: is what I hear you talking about is anger,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: both from talking about what happened with the park,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: the potential park,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 29:35
  And then talking about running in the second city,
• 29:37
  that there's this real anger in people.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: I see it's like you're alchemizing the anger differently, right?
• 29:42
  You seem to see this anger as something we're not actually
• 29:46
  going to then reflect back out.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're not going to then take that anger and then shout it out.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying, can we understand the anger?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: And can we then build a movement that helps get people what they need?
• 29:57
  Because I feel like a lot of what happens in politics now is
• 29:59
  like,
• 29:59
  let's just stoke the rage.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: The one thing I will just jump on and add is,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: to me,
• 30:05
  when you describe the way you kind of absorb anger while also
• 30:10
  really listening to
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: people,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: it sounds a lot like Zora Mamdani to me,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: which is what I've always appreciated about his campaign,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: is that he...
• 30:17
  was really able to absorb people's frustrations and metabolize
• 30:21
  it into a more
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: joyful campaign,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: which is interesting because,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Lucas,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen you described as a happy warrior before.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe you were just ahead of your time when you ran in 2018.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I'll take that as a compliment.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: I do,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: when people talk about MomDomni,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: it's very much like people talk about a smile,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like, it's a very real thing.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: Stoking anger is not productive.
• 30:50
  If my children are really pissed off at me and I do the thing
• 30:55
  that's pissing them
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: off even more,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: they just get madder.
• 30:59
  And so we need to figure out ways to hold space for people to
• 31:04
  say what they're mad
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: about,
• 31:05
  figuring out how to help people articulate what the root of the
• 31:09
  problem is and
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: stoking
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: The rage is not going to help.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: Helping people be heard is, I think, going to help.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately,
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: though,
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of politicians right now are stoking rage and are actually being,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: electorally rewarded for that,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think we see.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to actually turn now to the U.S.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Senate Democratic primary in Maine,
• 31:30
  which is what Alice and I talk a lot about and talk about on
• 31:34
  this podcast.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Is there a Senate race going on right now?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there happens to be a Senate race going on.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the things you've mentioned are,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: remain very relevant,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: eight years past your congressional run,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: rage in rural communities,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: certainly the federal government investment in rural communities.
• 31:53
  I think those are things that I hear a lot when reading about
• 31:56
  the campaign right now.
• 31:58
  Before we really jump in,
• 31:59
  do you have a candidate that you're supporting?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Or am I allowed to ask that?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, of course.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: So in the Senate race, I have not supported anyone financially.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I...
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: have been watching from the sidelines a bit.
• 32:17
  I've had more conversations with Graham Plattner than I have
• 32:20
  with Janet Mills,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: because the conversation with Janet Mills was an email and a text saying,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: would you give me money for my campaign?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I responded by saying...
• 32:29
  No,
• 32:31
  I'm disappointed in your position on tribal sovereignty and a
• 32:35
  wealth tax.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: And the conversation ended there.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: So we haven't talked since then.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: And Graham is more engaged in the organizing circles that I am a part of.
• 32:49
  And so I've had more conversations with him and I'm excited
• 32:53
  about his campaign.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: So how is that for an answer?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, nicely done.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to jump into a different,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: probably Allison and I's favorite topic now,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: which is identity and authenticity.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about it a lot in this race,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: and this race has particularly revealed a lot about this issue.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to try to set something up here.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: In Maine right now,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: in the Senate race,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: there's an effort to cast Janet Mills as an insider,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: as an establishment.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Even though,
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: as Alison has many times reminded me,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: she spent her whole career as an outsider,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: as a woman in main politics.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: She was the first woman to serve as DA, as attorney general, as governor.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: So she's always been kind of an outsider to these institutions.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: But then on the other side,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: we also have Graham Plattner,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: who is similar to you,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: running against kind of the D.C.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: establishment Democrats.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: What's really interesting to me is
• 33:52
  Graham Plattner has kind of portrayed himself as this working
• 33:56
  class person,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: veteran,
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: oyster farmer,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: harbor master,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: all of those things.
• 34:02
  But then the attacks on him from the outside right now are that
• 34:05
  he went to private
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: school,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: his father was
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: He was a lawyer.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: He was recruited by New York City media elites.
• 34:10
  And what was interesting to me when reading about you is your
• 34:13
  opponents came after
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: you in a very similar way,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: using your biography,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: how you went to culinary school and you lived in New York City.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: in Seattle.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: They used your biography against you.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just interesting.
• 34:27
  Allison,
• 34:27
  I oftentimes think about this question of who gets to define
• 34:31
  your identity.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Is it you or is it the voters?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: So when thinking about Graham,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: I just am wondering if you kind of relate to him at all from this kind of
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: perspective of his background,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: the way he is a little bit of a class straddler.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: And do you think these attacks are going to be like effective on him?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 34:52
  I think it's a really important question and one that I wrestle
• 34:55
  with and certainly
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: wrestled with a lot in 2017 and 2018,
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: feeling like other people are telling my story,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: other people are defining who I am and what I stand for.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: And there's no way to stop it.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: Believe me, I tried.
• 35:08
  I tried to turn the volume up on what I was saying and what I
• 35:12
  stood for as opposed to
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: where I come from and the experiences that I have,
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm never going to not be a wealthy person.
• 35:20
  I can't take that history away and I'm never going to be from
• 35:23
  anywhere other than
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: rural Piscataquis County.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's just the way it is.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I,
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: People portrayed me as a rich person that was out of touch.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: And the arguments were a little boring.
• 35:37
  And I think they're a little boring in the way they respond to
• 35:40
  Graham to say his
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: father's a lawyer and he went to boarding school.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: And it's cool.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: What an interesting facet to a young man's life.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: And 25 years ago, I had a restaurant on the coast of Maine.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: in the town of Winter Harbor.
• 35:53
  And I would drive over to Sullivan Harbor Farm and buy smoked
• 35:56
  salmon from Graham's mom,
• 35:59
  Leslie.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I've known that family for at least 25 years.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I know that their hard work
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: I know they've been lifelong Democrats.
• 36:09
  I've known Graham to have served his country in a really hard
• 36:14
  and difficult time in
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: American warfare and American democracy building.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: There's not a clear battle that was raging in the Middle East,
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: but he chose to go and participate in it.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad that he has a good education.
• 36:32
  I'm glad that his parents are entrepreneurial and have worked
• 36:37
  really hard and
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: instilled those values in Graham.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: And whether or not it'll work, I'm not sure.
• 36:45
  But I think that what he's doing to push back against it is
• 36:49
  putting himself out
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: there as much as possible.
• 36:52
  By the time the primary comes around,
• 36:54
  he'll have had 60 town hall meetings.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: He's done 40 so far.
• 37:00
  He's giving Mainers a chance to meet him in person to answer
• 37:06
  their questions and to
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: go to places where he knows that he is not popular and
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: be able to say, okay, you may not like me, but here I am.
• 37:18
  Tell me why,
• 37:19
  you know,
• 37:19
  let me have an opportunity to hear from you about what you
• 37:23
  need.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I just so appreciate that.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds a lot like, sounds a lot like you.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Here I am.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: You might not like me, but tell me why.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 37:34
  I mean,
• 37:34
  I think I don't like it when someone pokes their finger into my
• 37:37
  chest out of anger.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: But the benefit of it is that they're close enough to touch me.
• 37:42
  And that means that we're close enough to have a conversation
• 37:45
  with one another.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I see Graham doing that over and over and over.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: And what Governor Mills is doing is not that.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, the Penobscot Nation is hosting a
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: a candidate forum,
• 37:56
  and she's not going because she knows that the tribal nation is
• 38:00
  not supportive of
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: what she's done around sovereignty.
• 38:03
  And so to skip out on learning something from the Native
• 38:09
  community that's here in
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: Maine,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: why would you do that?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: Why would you...
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: waste that opportunity to learn and grow and develop a new perspective.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: the other piece that I think is so refreshing about Graham is,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: and for the last three years,
• 38:26
  I was spending a lot of time working with organizations that
• 38:29
  are organizing white
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: men in America.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, organizing for racial justice, correct, right?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: Social justice, racial justice, for economic justice.
• 38:41
  You got to be clear when you're saying that you're organizing
• 38:43
  groups of white men.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: I've definitely gotten a lot of weird looks from people.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, what are you up to exactly?
• 38:51
  But I there's 100 million white men in America and they are
• 38:55
  being organized like
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: crazy by the Andrew Tates and the the manosphere.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: in a way that makes me extraordinarily uncomfortable,
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: especially raising a young boy in this country.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 39:09
  I have a 12-year-old son and I can see the way in which the
• 39:12
  algorithmic internet is
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: feeding him things about how he should cut his hair,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: the clothes that he should wear,
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: the fragrances that he should spray on himself,
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: the things that she'd hang on his wall.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: And Graham has been able to take his masculinity and use it
• 39:31
  to stand up for communities that don't have a loud voice like
• 39:37
  he does and do it in
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: a really thoughtful and engaging way.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: we need more organizing like that,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: and if Graham doesn't win this election,
• 39:50
  I'm still very excited about what Graham is doing to build the
• 39:55
  organizing power to
• 39:57
  bring more white men into the fold to really address the
• 40:03
  challenges that are being
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: faced.
• 40:05
  I'm not saying that men need another footing to recapture their
• 40:10
  dominance in
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: America,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: but I am saying that we need influences.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: We, as in white men, need influences that are willing to
• 40:18
  teach us and nurture us and make sure that we are doing the
• 40:21
  very best that we can be doing.
• 40:23
  And oftentimes that means being allies to communities that are
• 40:26
  being intentionally marginalized.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I see Graham doing that extraordinarily well.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that's exciting.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if he continues to do that,
• 40:36
  the arguments and the critiques that he gets that he went to
• 40:40
  boarding school or his
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: dad's a lawyer,
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: just kind of land flat.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like I want someone that's smart and well-educated
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: standing up for me, right?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: I want someone like that.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that if he continues to do what he's doing,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: he has a great opportunity to be successful.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I- Not endorsing.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: If that didn't sound like an endorsement, I don't know what did.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about,
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 41:09
  the parallels between how you ran and what Graham is doing are
• 41:12
  like sort of even
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: more clear in this conversation.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: What I will say, though, is Graham doesn't have your smile.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that like not just sort of in jest,
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: but I actually when I first saw his campaign launch,
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: I thought,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Luke and I talked about this extensively.
• 41:28
  What an amazing model of a different kind of masculinity of
• 41:31
  both strength and
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: openness and kindness is.
• 41:35
  But I have watched as the campaign has gone on,
• 41:39
  and I have felt like there's been more anger.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And some of this is about politics, just brings that out, right?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: It asks you to be
• 41:46
  you know,
• 41:46
  in competition with someone,
• 41:48
  like you are literally fighting against another person.
• 41:51
  And so now it turns out actually Janet Mills went negative
• 41:54
  before Graham,
• 41:55
  right?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Janet was the one who actually put out negative ads that,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think we could debate whether that was effective or actually backfired,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: but he has not.
• 42:02
  But I do feel like politics sometimes pushes us and has pushed
• 42:06
  Graham to be more
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: aggressive than he was when he started.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to bring it back to you because, you
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't actually go negative.
• 42:14
  And I know there were people pushing you to go negative against
• 42:17
  Jared Golden.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And who knows if that would have made a difference, but you chose not to.
• 42:22
  Talk to me about why you didn't go negative when you were
• 42:25
  running for Congress.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: There are a few reasons.
• 42:29
  The first is that my wife,
• 42:31
  Yamaya,
• 42:32
  had made a huge sacrifice for me to run.
• 42:36
  And that was moving to a small community that she'd never been
• 42:40
  a part of to raise
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: our children while I was campaigning.
• 42:45
  And she said,
• 42:45
  look,
• 42:45
  if we get into the race,
• 42:47
  it's we,
• 42:48
  you and I as a team running this campaign.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: I want to make sure that when we're done,
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: we can hold our heads high and say,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: we ran on our values,
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: on our principles and our ideas.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the way we'll either win or lose.
• 43:06
  And she was like,
• 43:06
  that's the way that you were able to get the national park
• 43:09
  completed.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the way I'd like you and us to run the campaign.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: And the other thought is,
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: I really, really wanted to beat Bruce Poliquin.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: And not necessarily me, but I wanted Bruce Poliquin out of office.
• 43:23
  And I felt like if during the primary,
• 43:26
  the candidates tore each other down,
• 43:29
  We would limp into a general election with scars and exhaustion
• 43:36
  and an angry edge.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: And that would be distracting to the task at hand,
• 43:43
  which was to run a really successful campaign against Bruce
• 43:47
  Poliquin and beat him.
• 43:49
  And I remember the day very well when I was doing a meet and
• 43:56
  greet at a diner in Searsport.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: And while we were sitting in the diner,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: I looked up on the television that was playing there,
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: and I saw an ad in support of me that the campaign did not put out.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, huh, where is that coming from?
• 44:14
  It was a pack that had started to go up on television talking
• 44:18
  about how I was a
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: good person for Maine.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, oh, I wonder what's going to happen from this.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: And by the end of the day,
• 44:28
  Jared Golden went on TV with a negative campaign ad that was
• 44:33
  saying that I was
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: using dark money.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it was like it was just super negative.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we're driving home and talking to our communications person.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yamaya and I were in the car together and he said,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: if you don't respond to this ad in a really direct,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: really intentional way and call Jared out for what he's doing,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: you're going to lose the race.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: And Yamaya and I were like, we're not going to do it.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: We're not going to get into a fight with Jared Golden on television,
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: three weeks before the primary election.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's just, it's not worth it to me.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 45:10
  They were like,
• 45:11
  all right,
• 45:11
  well,
• 45:12
  this probably marks the end of our ability to win.
• 45:16
  And I completely respect your decision,
• 45:18
  Lucas and Yamaya,
• 45:19
  but just know that this is it.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: And...
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we lost by a couple thousand votes.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: So they were probably right.
• 45:27
  And I don't regret it for a second because Jared went on to win
• 45:33
  that election.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: A week after the primary,
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: I held a fundraising party at our house for Jared,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: and I invited everyone that contributed to our campaign to come.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I
• 45:46
  Yamaya and I got up and specifically asked everyone that was
• 45:49
  there to support Jared's campaign.
• 45:51
  And we went to the Bangor Library and we did the same thing
• 45:55
  much more publicly with
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: the press and gave my full endorsement of Jared.
• 46:00
  And then we spent the next several months knocking on doors and
• 46:03
  making phone calls
• 46:04
  to donors and worked our asses off to make sure that Jared won
• 46:08
  that election.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I felt so disappointed.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: great on election day when Jared won.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: I felt like it was, I was part of the victory, right?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: It felt so good.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that,
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 46:21
  my takeaway and what I'd like more people to understand is that
• 46:25
  focusing on winning
• 46:27
  in the longterm is much better than getting in fights like what
• 46:32
  potentially could
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: devolve in the Janet Mills,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: Graham Plattner race right now.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to make sure that we take this clip,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: and when we have our primary winner in June in Maine,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: we will play this for whoever lost,
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: and hopefully they will take a cue from you and Yamaya.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I just can't tell you how much I appreciate this conversation.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Luca and I are 30 years apart in age,
• 46:55
  but I think we both share this belief that politics actually
• 46:59
  can be affirming,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: It can be a way to build community.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: It can be a way to come together for a shared purpose.
• 47:06
  And I love hearing someone as committed as you to that real
• 47:11
  human connection and engagement.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just really in a world of negativity,
• 47:16
  it feels very hopeful that there can be folks like you who will
• 47:21
  get out there and
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: do the work.
• 47:23
  That wasn't actually the closing of the episode,
• 47:25
  but I just felt so fucking inspired by you.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: So we're not closing there, right?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was going to come in with a totally different angle.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: I have a lot more skepticism of this because I'm just like,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: you have to work out your differences.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: I do think it's important to reconcile in the end.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: But if you have really fundamental differences with your opponent in a
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: race, you should call them out.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: You should make that clear to voters.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: They're not stupid.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I'm not saying you should go negative on personal attacks.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's good.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: But for instance,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: if your opponent is taking money from APAC,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's fine to go negative on that.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's values-based for a lot of people.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there are instances where it's somewhat accountability and
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: But wait a minute, Luca.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want to ask if you think this is influenced by,
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: this may not be generational,
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: but is it partly,
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like your generation,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 48:26
  you have made fun of each other in a very public way or like
• 48:29
  it's a rough world in
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: social media,
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I take your point that like,
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: people my age are doing that as well.
• 48:36
  But how much of this is influenced by the fact that your
• 48:39
  generation is more
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: comfortable with,
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: or there's less sort of decorum.
• 48:44
  There's more of a way that you're comfortable with people being
• 48:46
  taken down.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: To me,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: that seems kind of naive because I'm like,
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: politics has always been a nasty,
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: nasty business.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but hold on.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's always been nasty, but people have always said they hate it, right?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you're saying like, ah, I'm okay.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you want to go negative, you go negative.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm just saying it's like accountability.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I hear your point about accountability.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_03: And let's be clear,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: I could have been the best member of Congress,
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: but I couldn't win,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_03: So you may appreciate my strategy of being like the happy warrior,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_03: but that didn't get me into Congress,
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 49:15
  So I wouldn't necessarily say that I have a winning playbook
• 49:19
  for getting elected.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot like relationships.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about timing.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe your playbook would have worked eight years later now.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Zoran Mamdani just won using that playbook.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean...
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: I also have been thinking about this a lot in the sense that people ask,
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: am I going to run for something again?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_03: And of course I might.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: I do want to represent Maine.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: I love this state.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: This is where I'm from.
• 49:43
  I feel so proud of everything that Maine has and the way we
• 49:48
  show up in a national discussion.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: And this isn't the first time that we've been recognized for our
• 49:53
  politics on a national level and for all the great things that
• 49:56
  have come out of Maine.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_03: This is an extraordinarily special place.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so,
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 50:00
  I would love to be able to represent Maine and its people in
• 50:04
  Congress or in some
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_03: way.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I also wonder what I can do from the outside.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I think about the ways in which I can organize and
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: If I had won the race in 2017,
• 50:23
  I don't know if I would have made the personal transformation
• 50:27
  that I have made to
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: understand the intentional marginalization of
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: black and brown, and indigenous people in America.
• 50:36
  I have certainly come to understand a lot more about that in
• 50:39
  the last several years.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that would have happened while I was in Congress.
• 50:44
  And I would not have been as privy to the structural organizing
• 50:50
  that I've seen if I
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: were in Congress.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: I would be the
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: people would be trying to organize me, right?
• 50:57
  And so I think there's importance to being a good member of
• 51:00
  Congress or a good
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: politician who has been elected.
• 51:03
  But I think there's also an extraordinary amount of power and
• 51:07
  importance of being a
• 51:09
  good citizen and leading by example and doing everything that
• 51:13
  you can to affect the
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: people that are making policy and that are legislating.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so I
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:23
  I just kind of go back and forth on whether or not I wish I won
• 51:27
  or how much power I
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: can wield from either outside of office or inside of office.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of ways to be involved in politics, right?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of ways to engage in the democratic process.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean being elected.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: Although I do say,
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: depending on what happens in this year's second congressional district,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: in 2028,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: if you decide to run again,
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: Please come join us on Politics Between Us for your first interview.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to put that in there, right?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was going to say, I was hoping we're going to get a scoop.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: Lucas Sinclair announces he might run for office again.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: Does that count as a scoop?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: He kind of did say that.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Might?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Could you say might?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's like, it counts.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's a maybe.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's sort of a headline there.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: But I do think though,
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: when I graduated from culinary school,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: I moved to New York City and I worked for Danny Meyer at 11 Madison Park.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: That was my first job.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: And what I learned there, I've used
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Every moment of my life since.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so,
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: we can end cap this conversation by saying,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_03: put down your phones,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: 10 bar,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: go work in a restaurant,
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: be with people.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: That is where you're going to learn things.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: Become the most active listener you possibly can.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 52:38
  don't try to change someone's mind if you don't know them and
• 52:42
  don't know where
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_03: they're coming from.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that might be my favorite line ever.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: Don't try to change someone's mind if you don't know them.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we have to be in relationship.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we're so glad we're in relationship with you.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Likewise.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: Likewise.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: It was really, I learned a lot today.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's great to be with you both.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you so much for doing this podcast.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's really timely and worth doing.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_03: And thanks for having me on.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: All right, it's time for age bait.
• 53:21
  This is when Luca shows me something from internet culture and
• 53:24
  we test my knowledge.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: So Luca, what do you have for me today?
• 53:27
  Okay,
• 53:28
  in the past episodes,
• 53:29
  I've shown you about AI Erica Kirk and about Polymarket.
• 53:34
  But if those didn't convince you that we were kind of living in
• 53:38
  a dystopia,
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: today I'm talking to you about looks maxing.
• 53:41
  That is something I feel like I've started,
• 53:44
  maybe I've heard about,
• 53:45
  but I'm not sure what it is.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think it is kind of everywhere right now.
• 53:50
  But I don't think people kind of understand,
• 53:53
  like,
• 53:54
  the full extent of it.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to play you a little clip to get us going.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: This next election cycle, who's gonna win?
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be Gavin Newsom against J.D.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Vance, because J.D.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Vance is subhuman and Gavin Newsom mugs.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: J.D.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: Vance is subhuman?
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: What makes you say that?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he's got a very short total facial width to height ratio.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's obese.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, very recessed side profile.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas Newsome is like 6'3 Chad.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know what to make of what, what was that?
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: Who is that?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: That is clavicular, as he's known.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: Clavicle?
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: Clavicle?
• 54:35
  It does refer to his clavicles because they're supposed to have
• 54:38
  a certain width apart.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: But his biblical or birth name would be Brayden Peters.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 54:44
  And he's a TikToker,
• 54:45
  influencer,
• 54:46
  and he's become one of the faces of looks maxing.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: In this clip,
• 54:50
  he's being interviewed by this conservative radio host about
• 54:54
  kind of the political
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: implications of looks maxing.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: But looks maxing itself is kind of this subculture about maximizing your
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: appearance,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: essentially so that more women want to sleep with you.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 55:07
  So you're saying that men,
• 55:08
  there's a whole subculture,
• 55:09
  and this is younger men?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is like,
• 55:14
  is this just an extension of a culture that always like – this
• 55:19
  is what women have
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: been subjected to forever and now we're just doing men?
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: Although I – my spidey senses are like that seems darker than that.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is much darker than that.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: there's always been like racism and beauty standards,
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_02: but here,
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: like it's very,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: it feels very eugenics adjacent there.
• 55:38
  I mean,
• 55:38
  in this clip,
• 55:39
  you're even hearing him talk about skull ratios and stuff like
• 55:42
  that.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: And some
• 55:42
  Some of the stuff that people who are really into Luxmaxers get
• 55:45
  into is lots of
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: steroid use,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: breaking their facial bones to get a better symmetry,
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: and also lots of other really extreme dieting and plastic surgery stuff.
• 55:58
  The even darker part is that this kind of whole concept comes
• 56:02
  out of incel culture,
• 56:03
  like an online community of mostly men who see dating and sex
• 56:07
  as this kind of like
• 56:08
  brutal hierarchy where a small number of men get all the
• 56:11
  attention and everyone
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: else gets shut out.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's not super surprising to me that,
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 56:19
  I think about like working right now with young people and AI
• 56:22
  is totally changing
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: everything about their futures and their job,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: what the jobs are going to have and everyone's uncertain.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it's not super shocking that as a time when,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: for most of last hundreds of years,
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: the mind was the way that you advanced,
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: The intellect, your brain, right?
• 56:39
  And it seems like intellect,
• 56:41
  your brain is going to be less and less important.
• 56:43
  So I guess it's not super surprising that a group of people
• 56:47
  that was feeling sort
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: of like lost would find,
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: the mind won't matter anymore.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to define myself by my looks.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you're so sympathetic to this.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: Easy.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: I did not say sympathetic.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a bad thing.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: I said I loved it.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I got defensive too quickly.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: But honestly,
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like a lot of people look at this and they see,
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: oh my God,
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: these young men,
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: they are like totally poisoned on the internet.
• 57:12
  Why do you kind of have this like more generous perception as a
• 57:15
  first reaction?
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, because I feel like, I think people are so lonely.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's the answer you'd expect,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: but like,
• 57:25
  I just feel that people are so lonely for connection and
• 57:31
  particularly this
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: generation,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: you're a little bit out of it,
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: but this,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about this generation.
• 57:36
  It's like,
• 57:37
  they're the first generation that was literally handed them an
• 57:39
  iPhone,
• 57:40
  right?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: When they're like in elementary and middle school,
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: then they get COVID and they're pulled from their communities for years.
• 57:47
  And then they're about to go out into the real world and AI is
• 57:50
  changing everything.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, loneliness is an epidemic in this country.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then you think about,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: to me,
• 57:55
  it is hard to live a good life if you don't feel like you have
• 57:58
  some purpose.
• 57:59
  And I just feel like people will use,
• 58:02
  like human beings will find value wherever they can.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: We need to have value in ourselves.
• 58:07
  And so I see this as a really painful adaptation to a very
• 58:14
  difficult world.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 58:17
  I would like to kind of pull this a little bit more into
• 58:19
  politics now and play you
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: a little bit more of this.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 58:22
  so then the interviewer asks Clavicular a little bit more about
• 58:26
  the impacts on
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: politics and the 2028 presidential election.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's say you got a vote.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's 2028.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm voting for Gavin Newsom.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're voting for Gavin Newsom?
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can't be that subhuman.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to pick the pro-
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: mass migrant,
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: pro-trans,
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: pro-murder-the-babies,
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: pro-burn-the-cities-to-the-ground,
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: pro-BLM Democrat,
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: because he's skinnier than the conservative vice president.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: 100 times over.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: OK, I'm not sure it's appropriate to make light of this.
• 59:04
  But as I was playing,
• 59:05
  I was like,
• 59:06
  oh,
• 59:06
  OK,
• 59:06
  the Democrats have a new strategy.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: As long as we have the tallest,
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: most chiseled face person running,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: we can recapture people who voted for Trump.
• 59:18
  Anyway,
• 59:19
  that is that is I guess shocking is not really a helpful word
• 59:25
  here.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, it's – so I want to say two things.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: One is because I feel like even in my showing empathy,
• 59:32
  like I don't – I want to get back to the fact that there are
• 59:35
  some vile and very,
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: very,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: very dangerous racist things that are coming from this.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say it is – it's almost comical,
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: to look at someone who's so young and so not developed intellectually or
• 59:52
  certainly emotionally,
• 59:54
  right,
• 59:54
  to have these comments and to say that about a politician.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll also say like there's plenty of evidence that we elect tall men.
• 1:00:03
  That has been in the social science data forever to suggest
• 1:00:07
  that politics and looks
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: are not intertwined.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's where my bigger point on this would be
• 1:00:13
  Isn't this just reflecting what is actually on the surface of
• 1:00:18
  our culture,
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: American culture constantly?
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: We are driven by looks.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: We are a vain culture.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: It is capitalist.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: It is make yourself be a certain way.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: We elevate people who are attractive.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: People who are attractive often have more powerful positions.
• 1:00:33
  So I think so much of what happens when these things come
• 1:00:35
  popping up is we like to
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: say like,
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: shock.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is shocking.
• 1:00:39
  Well,
• 1:00:40
  these are undercurrents in American political system that are
• 1:00:43
  always there.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: And people who are bearing the direct brunt of those,
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: stakes have been telling us that forever.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: So part of me is like shocked and not shocked, right?
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like this feels very American.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:54
  And it's no surprise that the internet is where these trends
• 1:00:58
  kind of bubble up
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: because social media is very like cyclical in like,
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: it brings back things from our history.
• 1:01:04
  So like on like a very light sense,
• 1:01:05
  people are like,
• 1:01:06
  oh,
• 1:01:06
  like 80s fashion is back.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: But like the internet's a very like extreme place.
• 1:01:10
  It's not that shocking that other dark parts of our history are
• 1:01:14
  going to circle
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: back,
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: including eugenics.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so interesting.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: the only good thing I could say is,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: at least for women,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: it feels like the body positive,
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: is there.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so maybe men are having their own sort of sense of like.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't know about that, Allison.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're missing that.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, body positive is over?
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't, I mean, I wouldn't say it's over.
• 1:01:37
  But I think,
• 1:01:38
  unfortunately,
• 1:01:39
  there's a lot of articles about skinny being back,
• 1:01:42
  heroin chic.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: and the ozemplification of everything.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, man.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: So now there's just a complete...
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's happening to everyone.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: Total body dysmorphia everywhere.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: Just to put a point on it,
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:01:58
  I think it is really interesting that young men were like such
• 1:02:01
  a topic after the
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: 2024 election,
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: how they swung towards Trump.
• 1:02:05
  And this interview makes me really curious to like how grounded
• 1:02:09
  those young men are
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: actually in conservative politics in a serious way,
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: or if it's just kind of this like unmoored dystopian online world.
• 1:02:18
  And like his political support seems grounded in,
• 1:02:23
  I mean,
• 1:02:23
  only looks and appearance.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:26
  I think your point is really interesting because this segment
• 1:02:29
  of the population,
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 1:02:30
  young white men has become a key voting bloc because they swung
• 1:02:35
  so hard against
• 1:02:37
  Biden and back to Trump that it will be interesting to see
• 1:02:41
  whether people hold up
• 1:02:42
  and sort of stay strong against this kind of culture or if
• 1:02:45
  there's some subtle and
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: –
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Newsom's an interesting example, right?
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 1:02:50
  what nods does he end up making to these communities for the
• 1:02:54
  political calculus,
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: which,
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: always raises the question for Democrats,
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: in my opinion,
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: is like,
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: how much do you hold on to your principles,
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: especially to the extent that they may cost you an election?
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where do you bend?
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'll make one last point here,
• 1:03:09
  which I think this whole concept of looks maxing in the
• 1:03:12
  interview I just showed you
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_02: shows a lot about the nihilism of my generation.
• 1:03:16
  Like they are grasping for connection and meeting or to ground
• 1:03:21
  their life in
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_02: anything that they can grab onto.
• 1:03:25
  And I think the trouble for Democrats is that Democrats are a
• 1:03:29
  very earnest political party.
• 1:03:31
  And they don't understand that the younger generation takes
• 1:03:36
  almost nothing seriously.
• 1:03:37
  There is so much nihilism and Gavin Newsom can't go out and
• 1:03:41
  like fabricate an
• 1:03:43
  authentic connection to Gen Z by like talking about mogging or
• 1:03:48
  whatever or looks
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: maxing.
• 1:03:50
  Like the understanding that like everything is not serious is
• 1:03:53
  like something you
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: kind of just like have or you don't have.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was interesting.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: I heard someone talk about how your generation,
• 1:04:00
  you sniff out authenticity so quickly because you're scrolling
• 1:04:04
  for content and have
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: been since you were young.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like no advertising company,
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: no focus group,
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: no political consultant is going to be able to get past what you all know
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: intuitively.
• 1:04:18
  And the problem is a lot of people in power,
• 1:04:20
  we don't really understand your world.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not how we grew up.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think you're right.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: I sniff out authenticity very well, Allison.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you do.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm always telling you.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: I know you do.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's my editing skill with you.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, that sounds like bullshit.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways, I think that's a wrap on age bait.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's a wrap.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: Let's be done.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's always a pleasure and I will talk to you tomorrow.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll talk to you tomorrow, Allison.