Latest / Walk Talk: Faith in Motion / 017: Book of Enoch
Transcript
- Randy: Alright, so the book of Enoch, it's not in your Bibles, but some of the earliest Christians believe that it's the inspired word of God. We're going to get into why that is today and a whole lot more. All right, so thanks for joining this episode of the walk talk. How you doing today, brother? Pj: ⁓ I'm hanging in there, man. How about yourself? Randy: I'm doing good, doing good. So I'm looking forward to talking about, you know, the book of Enoch and, know, it talks about giants who fell. It talks about, you know, different things that were happening on the earth at the time, same time as Genesis, right? And so I'm really looking forward to getting into some of the details of the book of Enoch, what it says itself, as well as some of the commentary out there on why it wasn't included in the canon. Pj: Right? Yeah, man, you know, this is a book that I've been, you know, involved in conversations about. Honestly, I've never read it myself. ⁓ You know, I do know some people who have read it, and those are mostly the people who have brought it to me. And ⁓ yeah, man, some pretty interesting perspectives and stories and just things in general, you know, circling around this book. Randy: Yeah, absolutely. So I'll say that, ⁓ for me, I read the book of Enoch or at least first Enoch. And we should probably, we should probably clarify that there's actually three books of Enoch. One of them is, you know, was part of the Ethiopian Bible and that was first Enoch. ⁓ and the other two came much later, definitely have a lot less credibility to them. ⁓ but first Enoch I read, geez, man, it had to be. 20 plus years ago, back when I was a lowly machinist working at a train. Pj: Wow. Randy: Yeah, so I read it way back then. So I'll be honest, I haven't read the whole thing since then. I did actually listen to a reading of it not too long ago though. Geez, think it was actually, you know what? was when I went down, when was it? When did I go down to see you guys? Was it Thanksgiving or right after Thanksgiving? Pj: I think it was right after Thanksgiving, yeah. Randy: So actually, I think on the way home, I listened to most, if not all of it. It was a long drive home. So it gave me the opportunity to listen to some audio books. And I listened to, I think, most of the book at Enoch. So it's kind of fresh, but I also thought it'd be good to just read at least a little bit of it so we have a little bit more context. ⁓ And so for me, I think the thing that I would say right off the bat is I know that it wasn't included in the Bible. for various different reasons and we'll get into those reasons and it was included in the Ethiopian Bible. ⁓ But I think for me, I wanna start with where I really get into the book of Enoch and what makes me think it has any credibility at all. And I think it's with the Bible because there are times where the Bible alludes to the book of Enoch or directly quotes the book of Enoch. So. With that, let's go ahead and jump into Genesis 6. If you don't mind reading Genesis 6, ⁓ I forget what verses it is, 1 through, I think it's like 1 through 7, 1 through 8, something like that. Pj: Yeah, so one through eight is titled the wickedness and judgment of man So starting in verse chapter 6 verse 1 now it came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and Daughters were born to them that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful and that they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose and the Lord said my spirit shall not thrive with man forever for he is indeed flesh yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. There were giants on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of man came into the daughters of men and they had born children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Then the Lord saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his hearts was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that he made the man on the earth and he was grieved in his heart. So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them, but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. So that's one through eight. Randy: And I think, okay, thanks brother. And I think Noah, I remember correctly, I think he was actually the grandson or great-grandson of Enoch. Do you remember? Pj: I believe he's a grandson so I believe ⁓ Enoch begot Methuselah and Methuselah was dad, I think that's the way it works. Randy: I think so. Yeah. Methuselah was the oldest living person in the Bible, right? He lived like the longest out of anybody, 900, almost a thousand years, 900 and something years, something like that. Okay. So, do me a favor. So that thank you for reading that. Can you just read the very first part of the first verse one more time? Pj: Yeah, I believe so. Now it came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them. Randy: Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So now I'm going to read from the book of Enoch and I'm going to start in Enoch chapter six. Okay. ⁓ because I think one theory, and this is a theory that I would personally ascribe to is that section is coming from the book of Enoch and book of Enoch goes into a lot more detail describing what a lot of Christians have debated for, for centuries. ⁓ you know, regarding what you just read. So Pj: ⁓ well, so how do we know that the Bible is quoting the book of Enoch and not the other way around? Randy: So we'll get into that, but can I just read this section first? All right, so keep that question now, because I think that's a good question for us to come back to. Okay, so here's what I got for Book of Enoch chapter six. It says, it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of heaven saw and lusted after them and said to one another, Pj: Okay, no, no, I was just curious. Okay, yeah, I was just curious. Randy: Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children." And I'm going to butcher these names. And Simjaza, who was their leader, said to them, I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed. I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin. And they all answered him and said, let us all swear an oath and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations, not to abandon this plan, but to do this thing. Then swear they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all 200 who descended in the days of Jared on the summon of Mount Hermon. And they called it Mount Hermon because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders. And then it goes into a whole list of leaders. And then it goes into chapter seven. I'm just going to read a little bit more. from chapter seven. And all the others together with them took upon themselves wives and each chose for himself one and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them. And they taught them charms and enchantments and the cutting of roots and made them acquainted with plants. And they became pregnant and they bear great giants, those whose height was 3000 L's who consumed all acquisitions of men, and when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind, and they began to sin against bird and beast and reptile and fish and to defour one another's flesh and drink the blood, and then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones." So I'll stop there. I mean, obviously, this is a whole book, it goes on and on and on. ⁓ But in my opinion, I think one of the reasons why You know, Genesis doesn't go into ⁓ super great detail regarding any of this story in Genesis six is because I believe this was already something that was that was known. This was a story that was passed down orally, if nothing else, ⁓ you know, since the days of Enoch. And so therefore they didn't feel like they needed to, you know, go into a lot of detail in Genesis to explain it. That's that's kind of my thoughts on that. What do you think about? what I just read there. Pj: I mean, I see the similarities. just so and again, I I haven't read it and I have, I guess, a ⁓ limited and look, some of the stuff that I've heard, you know, because I'm not very well versed on. I mean, you know, you'll be mostly in the driver's seat and I'll probably be having more questions than anything. But like so going back to my question of how do we know that that Randy: Sure. Pj: the book of Enoch is not quoting the Bible because from my understanding, I want to say in specifically, you know, with the first, the first book of Enoch or whatever, you know, ⁓ that it was written between 300 BC and, 100 AD, which, you know what I mean? It's like, at that point, you know, there was already, Moses was, you know, already writing this, this our version of the Bible. know what mean? I don't know. That's where like I don't I don't know. So I mean, does it explain like is there is there a definitive either way like where it says like has it has one been predated before the other? guess is the ultimate question. Randy: All right. So the dates that you just came up with are the same dates that I had too. So, ⁓ and I think that mostly comes from the fact that, you know, it was found, ⁓ at least, you know, fragments of it was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, ⁓ in Qumran, which was, geez, I don't know, in the forties, 1940, something like that. And it was found with a bunch of other, you know, scrolls like the Isaiah scroll, for example, and those documents that they found, some of them were hundreds of years. older than the others. So there was this whole range. And again, I'm not, I'm not an expert. I'm not a historian on this stuff, but my understanding is that they found all these fragments of scrolls, some, some more intact than others. And they were all, you know, written within hundreds of years of each other. ⁓ and that's like the oldest, you know, versions that we have. ⁓ what we do know is that if, if, you know, outside of that, ⁓ finding ⁓ you know, most people thought the book of Enoch was actually for fairly recent and either written, you know, a lot of people thought it was written after the time of Christ because there really weren't any preserved copies other than in the Ethiopian Bible. The Ethiopian, ⁓ Ethiopian, Ethiopian Bible is really the only place where the entire book of Enoch was, you know, actually captured. Cause obviously the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was fragments, right? So they found fragments, but they didn't find, you know, entire books of anything, even the Isaiah scroll, which I think they had the, you most of, ⁓ it was still just fragments and pieces. So I think that when they found it, it gave a lot of validity to the Ethiopians keeping it in their Bible, but I don't think we know definitively the exact age of it. Pj: I got you. And I guess in my mind, I can see finding them next to the Dead Sea Scrolls gives validity to the age. But I mean, I think about it like this, like if in a post-apocalyptic version, you know, if some future civilization walked into a public library that still remained. They found you know, the Bible and Alice in Wonderland. They can't be like, ⁓ man, these must be Real do you know what mean? Like so I mean, I and again, this is just these are just me asking questions that that like I guess I'll be honest. I mean you I'm sure you can tell like I do have my skepticisms about the book of Enoch ⁓ I I think that it was probably left out of the canon for Randy: Yeah. Pj: for a ⁓ pretty good reason. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy it. In the same way whenever we talked about, you know, in our Christian media ⁓ episode, and we talked about the Book of Eli. I mean, there's a bunch of biblical themes there and things that line up and things that could be quoted. And I enjoy the idea of it. But I'm like, for me, I guess what it boils down to is I'm like, does this, is this sharpening? Randy: Yeah. Pj: like my, I don't know, like it is fun to think about and speculate about. I think the attraction is because it is much more detailed and we want to know these things. You know what I mean? Randy: Well. 100 % man, 100%. And let me just say that, look, I'm going to go through some of the reasons why it wasn't included in the canon in our Bible today. And I would say that, you know, for me, I don't necessarily think it should have been included in the Bible. So I think it's in its rightful place, which is kind of off to the side with like a question mark above it, right? Because there's a lot of things about it that, you know, well, let me just get into some of the reasons. So Pj: Okay. All right, yeah, I'd agree with that. Randy: The first reason why it wasn't included was the authorship, right? Because obviously Enoch, seventh from Adam, lived a lot longer than 300 BCE, right? So obviously if the oldest copy, if they think it was written around that time, it wasn't written by him. Pj: Yeah, let me just interject this because like before all this, you know came up I think this is how the initial conversation where I found out about the book of Enoch happened I was talking about how Enoch is one of my favorite people in the Bible because it says it just has the smoothest line like Enoch walked with God and he was not and I was like what he was what Like that's that's dope. You know what mean? Like like what happened? ⁓ God just God was like, you know what? I like this dude so much. I'm taking you with me so I always thought it was cool and then so like Randy: Sure, sure. Pj: And maybe that's, have partiality there as well because I'm like, what y'all trying to do with my boy Enoch? Because, and I don't know if you're gonna get into this, but, and I don't know if it's even in the first book, because I know there's multiple books, but there's something that I heard about Enoch becoming like Megatron or Metatron or something, some kind of transformer or something. Randy: That yeah, that's that comes that comes in. Think the book of ⁓ the third book of Enoch or something like that. That's where things start to get kind of crazy. in this. Yeah, in the second and third book is where things really start to kind of get crazy. But if you want to know, according to the tradition, right, what what happened to Enoch besides just, hey, he walked with God and then, you know, wasn't because God took him. I mean. Pj: out of control. So the spin offs are always always way worse. was not, yeah. Randy: the book of E.DOT goes into that. It goes into how God took them and what happened when God took them. you know, it gives them, it gives a lot more information. So go ahead. Pj: Does it it cite how it knows because I mean like if me and guys walking and he's foops me up And I'm out of here like this somebody seen I was like, ⁓ look at that. I mean like I don't know you know what I mean like Randy: What it does, it says that he didn't just stay there, he came back and essentially told people about what he saw. Pj: ⁓ really? Hmm. ⁓ like God abducted him like an alien. He came back. That's wild. I didn't know that. Randy: funny you mentioned that. Yeah, no, I mean, it seriously does. So it says that, you know, and I'm kind of just going off of memory here. It says that, you know, he essentially, you know, went up to heaven, God showed him a bunch of things that were says back and forth between him and these watchers, the ones who actually, you know, married the women where he talked to them. Then he went back to God and talked to them. And then God tells him about his plan to flood the world. And he says he's going to do it, you know, after Methuselah ⁓ is basically gone, which, you know, part of God showing God's patience is the fact that Methuselah was the longest living person in the world, right? And then essentially, think, I ⁓ yeah, I think he comes back and tells Noah or something about it. And then Noah builds the ark, you know, it's, it's, don't remember all the details, but it goes into all this kind of stuff because One of the things that you were just getting into at the end of that section you read in Genesis six, you were just getting into the flood, the whole story about the flood. That's all connected. what Enoch basically tells us is that the reason for the flood was not just in response to the evilness of man, the wickedness of man, but it was in response to this hybrid. Pj: a lot. Randy: that was created and God's intent to like get rid of these hybrids, these hybrids of, you know, Bani Elohim, sons of God and humans, and also to get rid of a lot of the teachings and technology that they had given. Because that's something else the Book of Enoch goes into. It says that these fallen angels, these watchers, whatever they are, gave man this technology and essentially in exchange for their daughters, gave them the ability to work metals into weapons and create armor and talk to them about astrology and all kinds of crazy stuff. So a lot of those things that are, consider evil or wicked today have their roots in, you know, these fallen angels and Enoch kind of explains that. Pj: Well, I just wanted to note this out because I find it interesting and I think it kind of gets breezed over ⁓ in that little section that I read, you know, because what we do know about the flood is that the only ones that make it out is Noah and his wife and his three sons and their three wives. But notice, mean, here in Genesis, right, it says... Randy: Mm-hmm. Sure, sure. Pj: blah blah blah it says okay so verse four so it says there were giants on the earth in those days and also afterward right so it's i like i just i'm like okay so we're talking about the days right of post-flood so like is it saying and i guess my mind goes to maybe because you know obviously if we're talking about nephilim being giants and these people then obviously the most notable giant is Goliath and so it's like you know and his brothers and so it's just those things like okay well did so were they able to survive where the rest of humanity was wiped out because they had they're like a hybrid like they're like Aquaman you know what mean they're like the water ain't bother us like we we gonna you know they I don't know, like does it explain anything about that? Like what does it mean about there were giants in those days and the days after? Randy: ⁓ I don't know if the book of Enoch explains that. ⁓ I have theories about that, but I was trying to go down the rest of the reasons why it wasn't included in the Bible. Pj: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This is just it's an interesting thing and it just brings and this is right back to this Genesis like anyways, we'll get there. We'll get there. Randy: All right. So, so another reason, so the authorship ⁓ is the main reason why it wasn't included. The dates that's, you know, we're able to tie to it. And then it says the manuscript tradition, it says the complete text of one Enoch exists primarily in the ancient Ethiopia language, ⁓ which is, which was why it was included in the ⁓ Ethiopian Orthodox Church, even though only portions of it were found at Qumran. It says the structure, the book is divided into several sections. But one of the main things is the Watchers and the role of the fallen angels. There was just basically a lot of ⁓ questions that the early church fathers had that they didn't understand ⁓ how it really worked with the rest of scripture. ⁓ not to mention like the Jews themselves, you know, when they looked at the Old Testament, when the Council of Nicaea came together and they looked at what the Jews had considered scripture, it wasn't considered scripture to the Jews. It wasn't considered the Word of God, right? Now for the Jews, essentially, the Word of God to them is the Torah, which is the first five books, right? So that's all the Jews considered the Word of God, which is an interesting, you know, note because Pj: Right. Randy: The rest of what we call the Old Testament is not considered scripture to the Jews, right? They only considered the Torah. Pj: Well, I thought the different sects. I thought, wasn't it like the Pharisees, they accepted all of it and then the Sadducees were like, nope, only the first five books. Something like that, right? Randy: Yeah, so there definitely was that division, right? There definitely was that division. And I think you're right, the Pharisees saw the prophets, the writings of the prophets. Because, I mean, what does Jesus say all the time? He says ⁓ the law, which is, he's usually referring to the Torah and the prophets. He'll say like the law and the prophets all the time. But then you also have other writings, like the wisdom books, right? Like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, and you got Psalms and things like that. And yeah, you're right, varying different degrees, different sects of Judaism considered some of these books more inspired than others. But even among the Jews, they didn't have a consensus regarding like what books were considered inspired word of God. So therefore when everything got translated into Greek, ⁓ because you know, Rome took over, right? Rome took over ⁓ Israel and Judea, and they pretty much like, you know, conquered the known world before Jesus arrived in the scene, which was, you know, good timing if you want to spread the good news, right? ⁓ But actually, you know, Rome, the common language wasn't Latin, it was Greek. The common tongue was Greek. And so that's why all those books were transcribed into Greek in the Septuagint. ⁓ And so, ⁓ but the book of Enoch, again, because it wasn't like considered by any of those sects to be like inspired word of God wasn't included, which is one of the main reasons why the early church didn't include it either. Pj: Well, and didn't they say it ⁓ it contradicts scripture, correct? Or I mean, that's I believe that's Randy: I don't know. What have you heard about that? Cause that part I hadn't heard of any contradictions, but I think there's definitely some question marks around, you know, some of the things that it says. ⁓ Cause it does have some pretty out there, you know, ⁓ context. Pj: So. Well, right, right. So one thing that I see here is it says, you know, in Matthew 22, 30, Jesus states that at the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given a marriage. They will be like angels in heaven, which is indicating that angels don't marry. And the book of Enoch depicts angels, beings who marry and procreate with human women. So I guess they're saying that that's contradictory. And then a contradictory, excuse me. Randy: Yeah. Right. I don't see the contradiction in that at all. You have to explain the contradiction to me. Pj: the book of Enoch saying that angels marry women, human women, to procreate with them, but Jesus says that angels don't marry. Randy: Yeah. Well, he says that we won't, right? That's not what God's plan is. And that's why those angels were punished so severely because they went against that. Pj: Hmm. All right. ⁓ So this says for salvation, says the book of Enoch suggests that salvation can be achieved through works and knowledge, which contradicts the fundamental Christian belief that salvation is a gift from God received through the faith in Jesus Christ. I don't I don't. Randy: I don't, so it's been a long time since I read the whole book. So I don't know where does it give like a specific reverent reference to where it refers to works. Pj: It doesn't ⁓ reference the book of Enoch where it says that here. Obviously it references Ephesians in the Bible where it says that we're saved by faith and grace. ⁓ Randy: Yeah, I mean, to me, I would say that, you know, until you have the gospel of Jesus and the new covenant, there was probably a pretty reasonable understanding under old covenant as well that works played a big role in it. So I don't know if that contradicts anything other than what, you know, they believed at the time under the old covenant. If that's the case, then I would say the old covenant contradicts the New Testament. But again, I would say it doesn't in my mind because it's just a fulfillment. So I could see why there might be some insinuations there, again, without the reference, I don't remember what I read. Pj: there. Yeah, and I guess this would be the biggest one and you might be able to I mean if you remember it says ⁓ the book of Enoch's descriptions of the end times differ significantly from those found in the canonical books of Daniel and Revelation these discrepancies can lead to confusion misinterpretation of biblical eschatology so I don't I don't know obviously what kind of ⁓ in times the the book of Enoch describes But apparently according to this it's saying Randy: I think that's important. We should figure out what that's referring to. I have no idea what that difference would be. Pj: Yeah, I don't know. just says it differs significantly. So I don't know, you know, whatever. Well, so this is this site that I'm referencing right now is let's see what is it's I'm sorry. Randy: Well, if it says we should probably find out what it is and what it actually is. You got to love references without context. if you're going to say, if you're going to say it's good, contradicts it, but then not tell me how or what it actually says. Then it's not, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to believe that. Pj: Well, again, yeah, again, these are just things, you know, I'm looking at two sides. I'm hearing, you know, what you remember from reading. And so this is from ⁓ ever growing, ever growing Christians calm. ⁓ And then it's specifically ⁓ saying this is questions answered. Why should we stay away from the book of Enoch? 10 actual reasons. So that's just noted here. And so I was just curious, well, people who are out there and who are deep diving into this from both sides, like, what are they saying for and against? Now, you're right. This site, I would have liked a reference from the Book of Enoch in contrast to a reference from the Bible because I haven't read the Book of Enoch. You know what mean? So. Randy: Well, now I'm super curious how the book of Enoch, you know, gives a different story of the end times, that's going to be, you know, if it's saying that, does it give you whatever you're reading there, does it give any more information as to what that difference is? Because that sounds, that's important. Pj: Yeah. No, like I said, so yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. It would be. Randy: That's like, if I say I'm going to vote for Donald Trump because he's a good guy and I'm not voting for Kamala because she's a bad guy, you just quote me on that and leave it like that without me ever giving you any details as to why one's good and one's bad. Pj: Right, right, right. And look, I'm just asking the questions that I see. I didn't know if you knew offhand what it does say or what it doesn't say, because it does not reference, like, it doesn't give me any quotes or, so does the book of Enoch have, like, chapters like the Bible does? Like, Randy: It's not broken out by chapters and verse. are chapters. ⁓ They're pretty short chapters. But like I said, I haven't read the whole thing in a long, long time to be able to even have a clue as to what it's referencing there, unless it tells you like a chapter in the book of Enoch to look ⁓ at. Pj: Yeah, no, it don't. It don't. And that would have been helpful. So ⁓ if anybody from ever growing Christians that come ever listen to this do a better job of referencing. So we have, you know, so I don't I don't need to go and read the whole book of Enoch since I've already read the Bible to understand what you're talking about, because now I just I really I don't know. That might be a very, very valid point. You might just be making stuff up. We don't know. But I was just curious if you knew offhand, ⁓ you know, and maybe one day I will ⁓ maybe we'll read the Book of Enoch. I don't know. It's not necessarily on my to do list. I do. Like I said, man, I like I've enjoyed hearing some of the theories like, you know, that I say there is but things that people have talked about from reading it, like even what you're saying. I'm like, man, these things are like it's interesting because I think Essentially it's questions that we've all wondered at least at some point in time or the questions, these are the kind of questions that will come up during your walk and it's like, hmm, what? And like I said, again, I like the extras, like the fillers, like I like to know the extra details. So Randy: Yeah, so, yeah, so think we've covered a lot of the reasons why it wasn't included in the canon. I'm not sure about those specific reasons, because those were not things I had looked at before. But I definitely think that what the early church fathers were looking at in terms of how the Jews looked at the Book of Enoch and, you know, not being able to really validate the timing of when it was written or the authorship, I think those to me are good enough by themselves. Pj: I am intrigued. Randy: for the book to not be included in the canon. However, ⁓ you know, obviously the Ethiopians thought it was worth including. So let's talk about some of the reasons why it was included in the Ethiopian Bible. So I'm interested if that same website has any of that side of the argument or if it's only there for building straw man's ⁓ because I mean, because one of the reasons why it was included in the Ethiopian Bible is because the Bible quotes it. ⁓ I mean, directly it's quoted in Jude, which is in our Bible, where Jude essentially says, he not only quotes it word for word, but he actually says that, you know, was, Enoch was a prophet and this was prophesied and then he quotes it. So you gotta ask yourself, well, if Jude, who is a writer of the Bible and were considered Jude in his work to be inspired by God, then if he's quoting the book of Enoch and saying Enoch was a prophet, then you kind of have to think, well, that work is also inspired by God. So I could see their argument there. Pj: Well, I think though it would only be that way if it actually came from Enoch, but it didn't come directly from Enoch, right? It was written by other people. Randy: We don't know. That's the thing. one theory is that, you know, it was actually originally written down by Enoch. Matter of fact, in I think it's First Jubilees, which again, that's not in our Bible, but it is in the Catholic Bible. It was part of that original canon at the Council of Nicaea. In the Book of First Jubilees, it does say that Enoch was a scribe of heaven or scribe of the angels or something like that. And so people have speculated and said, well, if he is actually, you know, mentioned in Jubilees as a scribe, maybe he actually did write down this book of first Enoch. And maybe, you know, we just don't have any copies of it. And our oldest copies are not old enough to ascribe to him. Another thought is they could have been passed down orally, which we know a lot of the Bible was passed down orally until it was eventually written down. you know, I don't know. I don't know the answer, but I think. These are just reasons why the Ethiopians included it in their Bible. Pj: Yeah, I got you. And so on the side note, speaking about the Ethiopian Bible, I remember a while back, ⁓ you know, there was a bunch of stuff that I saw that I was going around about how, you know, the Ethiopian Bible is the oldest Bible and this, that, the other. know, it cites reason like this because all it includes, you know, all these books that the mainstream Bible took out and this, that, the other. then, you know, I was I heard I think Wes Huff saying something about that, that not being factual or something. So I don't know, do you know more about that? What's the true story with that? mean, does the Ethiopian Bible predate the rest of the literature that we see as far as today that we have access to? Randy: Well, so I don't, I wouldn't, I don't know the answer directly to that man. But what I would say is this, when you're talking about a Bible, you're really talking about a book that is a collection of books, right? So what are you asking? If you're asking if the Ethiopian Bible is older than the Bible that I have in my house and a hundred percent, because the Bible I have doesn't, I mean, I don't mean my physical copy. mean, I mean like the, Pj: Okay. Right, right, right. I was like, look, I bought this one 20 years ago. So he's the opening. Randy: No, no, I mean like the version I have didn't exist till after the Reformation, which was in like the 1600s, right? So that's what I'm talking about. If you're going back to the original canon from the Council of Nicaea, well, you and I wouldn't even look at that Bible and consider it all inspired because our Bible excludes some of those books. So if the question actually is, the version of books that are compiled as the Ethiopian Bible older than the Council of Nicaea? Pj: Yeah, okay. Randy: I actually don't know the answer to that question. We have something we should probably look up because it might be, I don't know. Pj: Now I got another question for you because I know on a previous episode you said that you, I believe so, I don't want to misquote you. Did you say that you did read the Satanic Bible at one point to see what it said, Randy: I did a long, long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. That was back in the days when I was reading Enoch as well, back when, back when I was doing some machining and didn't have a smartphone and had to just do a whole lot of reading to occupy my time. Pj: Just reading books. Now let me ask you this. because I don't know, I haven't read that one either. ⁓ Does the satanic bible quote the bible at all? Randy: I do not remember what I all I'll tell you I only remember a couple things about it. I just remember the main thing I remember was this was kind of my takeaway and we're going way off on a tangent here, but that's that's all right. My big takeaway from reading the Satanic Bible was oh my gosh, this is not a book about how to worship demons and spirits and summon and possess people and all. Pj: I'm sorry, sorry. Randy: This is a book that's very similar to what's being taught in classrooms and in mainstream culture. This is a book all about like, thy will be done. As long as I don't hurt anybody, I'm okay. I'm gonna do whatever I want. And like, know, if might is right and you know, the strong survive and like survival of the fittest, like that's what I remember. Like if you have the power and strength to do something, then there's nothing wrong with you doing it. Pj: ⁓ wow. Wow. Randy: regardless of what anyone else says or how other people feel about it. That was kind of my takeaway. It was very much a carnal book all about like, how do you live your best life, which is a term I hate hearing by the way. Pj: Yeah, so it's basically instant and self gratification, instant self gratification. Randy: It's like if you take the Bible, whatever version of our Bible that you're reading, and you say that this is a book about growing as a spiritual being, then the Satanic Bible from my perspective was the exact opposite. It was about how do I be more carnal, more fleshly, more dominant, right? That's what I took away. Like I said, man, it's been decades since I read this stuff. We could do an episode on a Satanic Bible. I'm all right with that. Pj: how old or young or whatever it is. Flash, got you. That's wild. Randy: But we, know, give me some time to read it first. Pj: I we, well, and I mean, it might be worth looking into because I mean, we're looking at the book of Enoch. And I guess the point that I was getting to is, know, I get it, ⁓ know, Jude quoting it, that was like one of those things. I'm like, well, you know, it is what I mean, that's that's pretty, I would say it's substantial. ⁓ But but I guess at the end of the day, it's like, well, But it's like, you can acknowledge something that's not necessarily, you know, like, you know, I guess like in my mind, like the the the if the satanic Bible was quoting the actual Bible, I don't think that it was doing so to be like, hey, look, that's that's a good book. That's that's that's something that you should, you know, trying to validate it in a way, you know. Randy: Yeah, and it might for all I know, it might quote the Bible, but I see where you were going with that. And no, don't know enough to say if, you know, if that comparison holds up or not. What I will say, though, is, you know, Jude directly quotes it. ⁓ Jubilees mentions Enoch as a prophet, which I would say I don't disagree with that. I mean, if God took him up, you know, because he walked with God and he wasn't. great, he's a prophet that still doesn't tell me that the book was written by him as a prophet. And even if it was passed down orally for hundreds or thousands of years, by the time it was documented, is it considered, you know, inspired at that point? Probably not. So I could, you know, my personal thought is I lean more away from it being included and more of it being a good reference. And I think that's why Genesis six doesn't go into detail because they already had a good reference. Pj: Right. All right. Randy: and they didn't need to spell out this whole story again. But I do think that before we as Christians start to go in and have all these debates about like, for example, whether sons of God is talking about the sons of Seth and daughters of men are talking about the offspring of Cain. Pj: That is a cane, Randy: or we start making up all these crazy theories, I think it's probably worth looking at the context and the culture and the understanding of the people at the time to see like, did they have any of these kinds of thoughts or did they have something else that they were referencing in? And I think in this case, they were probably, you know, very familiar. I think all the way up until the time of Jesus, I think they were very familiar with the book of Enoch. And I think that's why Jude quotes it. And here's the number one thing. And again, I don't, don't, think it should be included. But here's the number one reason why I think the Ethiopians had a good argument for including it is that Jesus doesn't quote directly word for word the Book of Enoch, but he references several ideas from the Book of Enoch. When he says, in my father's house, there are many rooms, ⁓ that is something that comes directly from the Book of Enoch. Pj: Mm-hmm. Randy: when he calls himself, the title he used for himself more than anything else, he calls himself the son of man, that comes from the book of Enoch. The only time we see it in our Bible is when Daniel references one who was like the son of man, not a title, but saying an adjective, a descriptor. The book of Enoch is where you get that title, son of man, and Jesus calls himself that over and over again. So to me, like I said, I still don't think it should be considered part of our Bible. Pj: Son of a man, Randy: But I think we shouldn't stay away from it like that ⁓ website that you were reading from said. I think we should embrace it. I think we should learn from it and we should try to understand if it actually adds any extra color, if it adds any extra dimensions to things that maybe we don't quite understand but would like to understand about our Bible. Pj: Absolutely. I mean, I echo in what you were saying. I mean, if this if this site that I was looking at, like gave me a direct, you know, representation from this book of Enoch saying, hey, look, this contradicts this in this way and blah, blah, blah, then then, yeah, I can I can see saying, OK, well, look, maybe not. But but I guess I've always kind of thought of the book of Enoch. And even like some of the other books, know, the what is it the Macbies and Jubilees and all these things that they took out, you know, what comes to mind with that is I remember, you know, I used to have like a 45 minute commute to work in the mornings and in the afternoons. And so I would listen to my audio Bible. And I remember I was in like Kings or something. And, you know, it's going on talking about these people. And it's like, you know, Randy: Right. Pj: Like I thought he's were commercials until like I looked at my bottom like no, that's what it says It's like well if you want to know more about these you could read it about it in the book of and it references a different a whole nother book And I'm like, you know, I mean, I'm like, okay. Well, like basically this is the Bible saying hey listen I'm giving you like a little synopsis here about this king if you want to know more about it He got his own whole own book. It's not the inspired word of God It's not but I'm letting you know like this is who that is, you know, so can kind of I see those things man Randy: Mmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Pj: ⁓ And I'm like, okay, I think that there is value to add context by if you go and read those things about, you know, these kings or what have you, you know what mean? So. Randy: Right. Yeah. I mean, to me, I think, look, I think that there is a difference between some of the books that are probably considered more like Gnostic books, right? Like the so-called Gospel of Thomas or, or Mary or the writings of Jesus or whatever they are. Like those books, they are totally different to me than some of these extra biblical books. that are either part of an apocrypha or were part of like the known writings and you know part of the culture at the time. ⁓ And I would say that probably if you know we really got into it probably second and third Enoch are probably more in that vein of a of Gnosticism and this goes down this crazy path. I don't see the book of first Enoch as being in the same vein as those other two. I see it as being Pj: Right. Randy: If I had to guess, would say that because it's quoted and because it's referred to and because it does seem to complete things that are left out of the Bible, I would think that it probably mostly should be attributed to Enoch, which I didn't mention this earlier. But in Jubilees, I don't know if it explicitly says this, but it like alludes to or at least hints at the idea that not only was Enoch the first scribe or I'm sorry, a scribe of heaven, but he might've been the very person who brought written language to the world. Like in other words, like writing might not have even existed before Enoch, you know, ⁓ before Enoch. So I think that's very interesting too. And something that, you know, we can't probably fully attribute to him, but it's probably, I would say, I would believe it. I would believe it. Pj: Yeah, man. Well, another thing, you know, makes me think about, you whenever whenever you're just talking about things like this in general, you know, there I think I mean, obviously we have the canon for a reason. But, you know, like John said, like if I was to write down everything just about Jesus, like, you know, more than all the books can contain in the world. So it's like there there there was so much extras going on that the Bible just leaves out for whatever reasons. You know what I mean? and focuses on certain points. But again, that's not to say that these things were not happening. That's not to say that there's no validity to what was going on behind the scenes that's not talked about. know what mean? ⁓ So, I mean, and that's why I do think that these things are cool because, you know, in the same way that it's important for us to look through the scriptures and put things in the correct context so that we can understand it correctly in the way that it was tended. Randy: Yeah. Right, right. Pj: It's like, it's easier to do that whenever you have more details that kind of help paint that picture so you can kind of be more immersed there. You know what mean? So I do like that. And I mean, like we talked about, like, that's why I like watching stuff like The House of David, you know what I mean? To just kind of see, you know, like just things. I don't know, just, you you just kind of let yourself fall into this world that they're painting all around you where, you know, it's just things start to feel familiar, you know what mean? Like, it's just cool. I like that. And so that is the attraction for me to, know, anytime I've heard people talking about these stories or things that they've read in the book of Enoch and whatnot. I mean, yeah, man, like you said, I can see why it's not canon, but do I think that it's worth dismissing? I don't think so, Randy: Yeah. Well, so and look, I'm not a historian here. I don't know the exact details, but my understanding from what I've, the research I've done, the limited research I've done is that a big conversation around the canon, the early church fathers, when they were trying to decide, you know, what books were going to be considered sacred scripture, inspired word of God, and what books were going to be, you know, heretical, right? Like the Gnostic books, right? They looked at, first of all, what do the Jews consider to be scripture? What do they consider to be sacred? Because obviously our faith is built on Judaism, right? And Jesus was a Jew and the whole thing, right? We're worshiping the God of the Jews, essentially. And then they looked at the New Testament and what they included in the New Testament. Pj: That's right. Randy: And primarily my understanding is they were looking at which writings could be attributed directly to the apostles and the people who walked with Jesus. I'm including ⁓ Paul as an apostle who, Paul says he's the least of all the apostles as one being born out of time, right? ⁓ But yeah, mean, so I don't know that there was any books ⁓ in the New Testament. I don't think there is. any books in the New Testament that's not directly linked that they felt very confident this book was written by one of these 12 apostles, right? And so, you know, so they would have looked at a book like Enoch. so I got some notes here. So Tertullian, I don't know if that's how you say his name, he was the one who was the most pro-Enoch. He's the one who said that, look, it should be taken seriously. And he mostly pointed to what Jude had to say. And you know what Tertullian said? Pj: Quite right, right, yeah. Randy: I thought that this was very interesting. He said that the main reason why Jews of his day or of Jesus's day were rejecting the book of Enoch was because it pointed to Jesus as the Christ. Pj: Hmm. So... Randy: Yeah, and again, it's been a long time since I read it, so I don't know exactly, you know, maybe that's for a part two episode. I don't know exactly what it said that pointed to Jesus as the Christ, but that was what Tertullian said. He said that, you know, hey, it should be taken seriously and it's only not considered were inspired by the Jews because they don't want to admit that Jesus is the Christ. Pj: Still not, still don't. Randy: still don't, right. Origen said that he acknowledged it and said that it was good for teaching, but it was not authoritative, authoritative, inspired word of God. He said it was interesting. He said it was something that, you know, we should be aware of, ⁓ but it wasn't inspired. in Augustine, St. Augustine said that, you know, he said writings like Enoch were not preserved in the canon, but they should still be preserved, even though they were not. going to be in the canon, they should still be preserved. And he warned against giving it equal weight to the Bible, but didn't necessarily say that it was something that was just totally to be just done away with. Pj: Over. I would say that that's the assessment that I align myself the most with right there. mean, that seems pretty, well-putting, pretty logical. I I would agree with that. Randy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's kind of where I'm at too. I think, I think it's a book that helps us answer some questions and where it helps us answer some questions. I think that it's super helpful. And honestly, man, you know, and we talked about this a little bit before. I really do think right. That there is something going on. There is something that is coming. There is something that Christians need to be prepared for in terms of. a great deception and Jesus talks about it in Matthew 24 and he says that you know even some of the elect are going to be deceived and I really do think it's going to be tied to angels and demons and aliens and there's going to be you know there already has been this very slow revealing this very slow you know disclosure that's been happening Pj: Bless the leaf. Randy: And I really do think that, you know, the reason why we're seeing more more public officials come out like JD Vance did recently and say that aliens are demons is because there's going to be an attempt to convince people that we were all created by aliens and therefore there is no God and that, you know, Christianity is fake. And I think that's what, I think that's what Jesus was talking about, man. And that's going to convince some people. Pj: And look, know, some people watching right now, if anybody might be like, ⁓ here you go. You're talking about aliens and this, that, the other. And that all sounds crazy in today's context. whenever you think about it, ⁓ this is exactly how the Pharisees viewed Jesus. He may as well have been alien like the Messiah, not the Messiah. We know better than that. You're not him. And they believe that all enough to kill him over it. Right. But you have conspired. Randy: Right, right. Right. Pj: conspiracy theorists like the wise men and and you know ⁓ These shepherds who were following a star to go find where this baby Jesus was born because they heard a prophecy You know what I mean? But they were conspiracy theorists until Jesus grew up and was exactly who he said he was So whenever you hear these buzzwords, you know Because the lies get thrown in our face all the time to numb us down and to take that take away that shock factor I mean you you I grew up in a time whenever Randy: Mm. Mm. Yep. Right. Pj: You know, people were viewed as like lepers if, you know, they were claiming, ⁓ I saw a UFO or I was abducted. Like people would write them off as the crazies until today. You know, the government who most people blindly trust against, I would say better judgment, but who blindly trust will come out and say, yeah, UFOs are real. And then you have the vice president of the United States saying, yeah, aliens are real. And nobody even says anything. They're like, ⁓ okay, whatever. Scroll, scroll, scroll. Randy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Pj: Back in the day, that kind of acknowledgement, man, that would have flipped the world upside down. And now we hear these kind of things and we don't even blink. So, man. Randy: Yeah. Well, I definitely think that's one of the reasons why I think people should understand the Book of Enoch because I personally ascribe to this thought that yes, angels and demons are spiritual, they're spiritual beings, but I don't think that necessarily means that they can't do physical things, that they can't have physical bodies or inhabit earthly vessels, right? Pj: I would say maybe supernatural, right? Let's just call him supernatural because... Randy: Well, mean, supernatural, mean, that's fine. I would say that to me, like, maybe they're what Adam, they're more, they're more similar to what Adam was before he said, and what we're going to be again, when we get our heavenly bodies, right? And, and, and we know based on Jesus himself, that that, that heavenly body is a physical body. it have, does it have properties that seem Pj: heavenly bodies? ⁓ Yeah, it's Kaporu, Randy: spiritual, like he just shows up places, right? He seems to like, just like appear or, you know, he, seems to somehow be able to transport himself from one place. That's, know, really far from another place pretty quickly. ⁓ but he also still eats and you could touch him and feel them. And, and it's like, so what's going on there? Like, is it possible that maybe these angels, you know, fallen angels, these watchers were in a similar way able to you know, have a relationship with women and have kids with them? And are we going to see more of that? Because look, I mean, one of the other things that I've mentioned before is, you know, we have other government officials that not only say that aliens are real, other officials who are not necessarily saying that aliens are demons, but they're saying we're doing some sort of genetic mutations with them to make hybrids. That's exactly what Enoch talked about and what the Watchers were trying to do. It's mind blowing, know it, I'm not trying to go down a conspiracy rabbit hole, but doesn't it say that in the end it's going to be like the days of Noah? What was happening in the days of Noah? All this stuff was happening. Pj: Yeah, well, mean, you you can give up on not wanting to be called a conspiracy theorist because if you believe if you believe that Jesus is coming back, you're conspiracy theorist. And I'm cool with it. You know. Randy: Hahaha Well, that is true because yeah, if you believe that yeah, he is going to be coming back, then you're right. There's a lot of people who, you and there's a reason why one of the crowns is for those who loved his return, right? Who look forward to his coming. Pj: Yeah, so. Endured to the end. Yes for sure and man like, know, I think I think that that that deception, know people just think it's it's gonna be like, you know Think of it as like a magic trick sleight of hand and then look ⁓ it's going and I think it's a slow deception that's already started and it's just being perpetuated further and further like, you know, because I Mean you you see you see it, you know what mean? And and I don't remember where exactly in the Bible Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Pj: that talks about to where like God, God, it talks about how God just kind of gives them to their, you know, to the way to their desires, right? Like, oh, you want to believe that? Go ahead. And like, you know, I struggled with that. think I might have mentioned it in a previous episode where I'm like, man, like, how is it that people believe this crazy stuff that they believe? Like, you know what I mean? Just just things that are factual that they're just like, no, I want to live in fantasy. And I'm like, this doesn't make sense. And until I heard that verse and I was like, oh, wow, like, you know, they Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Pj: They're not doing it to be stupid or just to to like be combative like they they full-on believe it It's like that the person who lies so much that they start believing their own lies. I'm like, that's exactly what that is And I think you know, it's it's similar in this deception man, like people Have gotten to the point where they prefer to lie they prefer to be deceived You know what mean? They they prefer to just ignore anything and everything to do with truth So I think maybe not to the extent that Jesus was warning about, but I do think that a lot of that deception has already begun and has been going on for a while. Randy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I agree too. So, you know, just my final thoughts on the book of Enoch, you know, like we've already said, I think it's something that's worth reading. I definitely would not consider it to be canon. I wouldn't consider it to be word of God necessarily, but I would definitely say it probably does add some good context that we should know about. It's probably got some truthful information that's useful for us to know. And also I would say like, think critically, you know, if you hear that something Like the conversation you and I had earlier, right? If you hear that something is being dismissed, ask the next question. If it says, yeah, do some fact checking. If it says, well, it disagrees with the Bible's view of the end times. Okay, well, tell me more because maybe, maybe it doesn't. mean, because you could say that, yeah, you could say that, well, Jesus said that, you know, ⁓ you know, there's no one that's going to be married in heaven. Therefore there's no way angels could, you know, be married. I don't see the connection between those two any more than I see. Pj: Fact check. Yeah. Right. Randy: where the Bible says it's appointed for man to die once and then be judged. And yet we have people who have been resurrected like Lazarus, who are actually going to have to die twice. That doesn't mean the Bible is false. It just means that there is this general rule and there are sometimes people breaking those rules, right? Angels broke those rules. Jesus broke that rule when it came to the death. Pj: Yeah, His rule, he could break it. yeah, I mean, and look, that's factual. Like I said, I was reading this just, I didn't know if you would know, like you said, that was straw man status. But I mean, at the same time, you know how many times people misquote the Bible thinking that, you know, people believe that the Bible says follow your heart. Like, no, don't. Randy: That's right, that's right. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Well. Pj: It says that your heart is wicked. So you should never follow it. You know what mean? So Right, right, but so so unless you unless you go and read it or unless oh, like for somebody says well You know the Bible says you follow your heart. Okay, show me where that that is second not there You know what I mean verse? Didn't happen like whatever man like so just like this like well listen, you know what it contradicts the the scripture we're at In the book of Enoch. Well, we're at Randy: Well, and God helps those who help themselves, right? Pj: It's in there like, no, you know what mean? It just get, need the facts. We need the facts. Randy: Yeah, and so and I'm all for it man if people want to challenge and if someone wants to go and do the research and look it up and tell us exactly where and what it says and how it contradicts great in my mind something doesn't contradict if it's just like a rule that gets broken like in the case of you know person dying once or if it adds extra information that we didn't know about because maybe the Bible doesn't tell us everything I mean the The Bible tells us what we need to know for our faith and for our salvation, but it doesn't tell us everything. Like you said, in the audio Bible you're reading, it was saying to go and read these apocryphal books if you wanted to know more, right? So I mean, we know that it's not gonna include everything. So just because something is new doesn't mean it's contradicting what you already knew. Pj: Yeah. Extra. Right and and you know one thing that I've heard multiple times like people like ⁓ you know, ⁓ they took it out the Bible like you can buy it on Amazon like if it's that serious to you like have you read the Bible though, know, I mean I'd read the Bible first and then go check out the book of Enoch but like people get all upset about all these books. Well, why did why they take out this book? They don't want us to know the truth, but they didn't want you to know then probably wouldn't be available for $14.99 on Amazon any of them. So Randy: Yeah. Pj: You know, it's just it's one of those things, man. And I agree. mean, look, you know, like I said, I would read the Bible first. But but I think it's it's it's important. It's a you know, it's important. We consume so much extra crap like at least this is, you know, got some some weight to it, a little bit of added information. And you know, if you have read your Bible and you are walking with God and pray about it and use the sermon, if you feel like something is contradictory or it's not right or, know, and Randy: Right, right. Pj: And again, just because just because there may be some of that later in there doesn't mean that there could not also be some some helpful troops to help clear up other things. You know what mean? There could be both. So, yeah. Randy: Yeah, yeah. So at end of the day, think, you know, this was a good discussion. I think we need to get into some more of these books. When you agree, we need to get into more. So you guys stay tuned, listen in for future episodes where we get into more of the books that are not included in the Bible, more like the apocryphal books and things like that. Not the Gnosticism and all those. I mean, who knows? Maybe we'll talk about those two at some point. Pj: Yeah. Yeah. Randy: But we definitely want to talk more about the books that are not maybe included in the Protestant Bible, but maybe included like in the Catholic Bible and just give you our thoughts as to, you know, why or, you know, why they're good or why, you know, why not? So stay tuned. Pj: Yeah. And very much we're interested in hearing y'all thoughts. I mean, I know there's a bunch of y'all that have read the book of Enoch or have watched a little TikToks or this, that, the other, like, let us know what y'all heard. Maybe y'all can answer this question for this site and tell us, know, share your Enoch knowledge with us. What's the pros and cons from your perspective? Randy: Hmm All right, and if you guys like this episode, make sure you check out our episodes on heaven because they're very closely related and check us out in the future for more books that are not included in the Bible. Thank you all for listening. See you next time. Pj: God bless.