Latest / nondriver / How Transit Access Connects Social Movements
Transcript
- speaker-0: There's so many wonderful stories of resilience and also hope and community that really happen on the bus that happen when you take the time to slow down and move at the speed of public infrastructure. This is an act of climate justice. We need to reduce our emissions, but we also need to build stronger social relationships. Climate justice demands that we build strong, thriving communities where we meet the needs of people who historically haven't had. Their needs met. speaker-1: Welcome to non driver. speaker-2: Real stories of navigating our world from people who can't drive. And I'm Anna Ziebarts, and I'm so excited ⁓ to be with you all today ⁓ for our ⁓ guest interview with Una. ⁓ Unafonti was born legally blind and grew up in rural Vermont, where there was no non-driving transportation options. And high school, a scholarship brought Una to Germany, where non-drivers could move through the world independently. speaker-1: I'm Devin Silvernail. speaker-2: Una went on to study at Smith College, graduating recently with a thesis examining how Massachusetts Complete Streets program affects mobility access for disabled residents. Una is currently based in Northampton, Massachusetts, moving to Cambridge in September, and is turning that thesis into an academic paper and a policy brief. Welcome, Una. Thanks for being here. I want to have you start just ⁓ telling us a little bit more about your experience with transportation growing up. speaker-0: I'm from rural Vermont. I joke, but it's not a joke that I grew up in a swamp surrounded by a forest, surrounded by a cornfield. and with that, there wasn't any bus. ⁓ the nearest bus stop was like an hour walk away, and the bus definitely ran if it felt like it. I think my first sort of brush with getting a little more involved with transportation organizing was doing ⁓ youth climate work. I did some work with like Fridays for Future. And I remember like Trying to get to the statehouse to do Fridays for a future. And it would mean getting up at like five, begging my mom for a ride to the bus stop, which came at six, getting a connecting bus. And it would be like this whole four-hour ordeal for a drive that's an hour and a half. And I'd get to the state house late. I'd be exhausted and be like, hey, this is a huge issue. We're all driving to get here. This is reducing a bunch of emissions. ⁓ And it just never was anyone else's top priority because no one else was ever like dealing with the bus like that. And then I remember I'd come back and I'd get the bus to Burlington, which is the major city in Vermont. ⁓ and then get like left there because the bus didn't show up. And it would be like calling people, being like, Hey, anyone have like an extra like forty-five minutes to come up and drive like me? Cause the bus didn't come and there's no other bus. So yeah, very much like the classic rural car-centered area. ⁓ I think part of it is we have very dispersed populations. And some of it is like, ⁓ well, we don't have enough funding to run transportation. People live so far away. And at the same time, I remember moving to Germany and seeing like these train stations and rural tiny towns and buses running out to the middle of nowhere. And thinking, like, why can't we have that? speaker-2: Yeah, so tell us how did you end up in Germany? What was that? How did that happen? speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, for anyone who knows, shout out to ⁓ UWC United World College. ⁓ they were farmed after World War II with the kind of idea that if people from different places and cultures studied together, they'd be more willing to cooperate later on. And now there's 18 schools around the world. and I'd been doing some youth climate organizing in Vermont and I had a mentor tell me about UWC and was kind of like, you need to apply. And so I did. I didn't think I would get in. ⁓ And then lo and behold, I got a full scholarship. ⁓ I got sent to the school in Germany. And I guess the rest is is history. I had my first tram ride, and now I want to work in transportation. The summer after I graduated high school, ⁓ I applied for an organizing fellowship with 350 Vermont, who is a group that does amazing ⁓ environmental justice work ⁓ in Vermont, who I That involved with as a youth climate organizer attending their marches and everything. And after I graduated, I was thinking about how do I put everything that I've learned in Germany and bring it back to the community where I grew up. And I wrote a proposal to be a fellow, which was really me getting out like a lot of anger about like transportation not being considered a key part of environmental justice. Because especially in the Northeast where I'm from, it makes up the largest share of emissions in Massachusetts, it's 42%. I forget the exact number in Vermont, but I think it's somewhere around 40% of all greenhouse gas emissions. And for a really long time it was no one's top priority because it just seemed like this massive issue that was so hard to tackle. ⁓ so I applied to be an organizing fellow with 350 Vermont. ⁓ they accepted my me and my rant. and I spent the summer building connections with people who are non-drivers, with people who had insecure access to transportation. And I was doing this survey of like to Vermonters of hey, what are your transportation needs? What would those needs look like beyond a car? And I got flooded by responses by people who were like, I am one missed paycheck away from losing my job because if I can't afford gas, I can't get to work, people struggling to find work because they couldn't drive, ⁓ talking to elderly adults who were terrified of losing their license, ⁓ hearing like, Stories from new immigrants who didn't have their license yet and were stuck in like the middle of nowhere with limited language and limited mobility, and realizing, ⁓ wow, this isn't just like a gripe that I have with transportation. It is something that connects so many of us and we're not talking about it. ⁓ but you look across the state, I think it was within like two weeks I had over 300 responses to this survey and like countless people willing to come and talk to me more. speaker-2: Yeah, there is so much untapped anger, I think, and frustration and desire to change things in that community, our community of people who can't drive, right? And I don't think people see that or recognize that, right? ⁓ that that how much it really does impact people, like you're saying, right? I'm curious why why do you think that that is the case? And and in particular like in the climate space, that that transportation or this need for transportation access just isn't recognized. more broadly or more widely. speaker-0: There's historically been some tension there between disability and environmental organizers. Yeah. Overcoming that tension would be one way, I think, to tap into that potential. ⁓ I also think like, I mean, you're a non-driver, you you know how much time, especially if you're living in like a rural or suburban area, just goes into like figuring out rides. It's hard to show up to events in person. It's hard to get tapped in. ⁓ if it takes you, you know, four hours to get to the march, you're probably not gonna go. ⁓ and also just like climate organizing is so vital to the health of our planet and to the health of people and to building community. And it is extra time and like labor, both emotional and like physical. And once again, if you're spending like so many hours on your day coordinating transportation, less time to do that. speaker-2: I think there's also the recognition that, you know, talking about that might require some changes in people's lives, right? That are that people can't even imagine how they would live without driving, people who do drive, right? And so it's not something they really want to think about or talk about. yeah, which which brings me back to to Germany and like ⁓ when when we were talking earlier, you mentioned being able to access like there was a point where you and your your ⁓ other students ⁓ that you were in school with went out and and took the train to go to a hike or something and that that the access to nature and access to rural areas was also available to non drivers. speaker-0: I've lived in Boston area for the past two summers, and you can take the commuter rail out to like some lakes and things, but not really like out to like you can't just go into the woods easily. ⁓ and I think like I grew up in Vermont. I spent so much time making ferry houses and forts out of trees, and like that's where I fell in love with the environment and wanting to become an environmentalist. and being in Germany was so cool. You It was just, ⁓ yeah, of course the bus runs to the base of this mountain and then you could be in this beautiful forested area and go on a hike. ⁓ of course the bus or the train runs out to this like remote village where there's a beautiful lake. ⁓ and you can go camping. And that's just not as much the case in the US. I think to be fair, like we have bigger issues. Like there's so many places where you can't get the bus to the doctor's office to the grocery store. ⁓ I remember my first summer in Boston. ⁓ the nearest grocery store that had like quasi affordable prices meant like crossing a highway and there was really no bus route to get there. speaker-1: Looking at Germany, I was just reading the other day, ⁓ that in response to all of the crisis that's happening around the Strait of Hormuz, they've decided to just freeze the cost of long distance rail travel for the next year because, you know, they they recognize that more people are going to be taking the train, maybe people who didn't take the train before. And that's an incredible thought. And, you know, those are the kind of policy decisions that are kind of left behind when you're either when you're kinda siloing yourself, when you're either talking about transportation organizing or you're talking about ⁓ climate organizing or housing. You know, we we tend to silo ourselves, but you know, at the end of the day, ⁓ I think as non-drivers, we do see this idea that e ease of access is almost the kind of underpinning thing that can bring all these things together that can provide us a better, more climate resilient place to live, ⁓ to to help us live in more affordable places. It's really quite interesting how it seems like a place like Germany, at least very recently, maybe forever, but I I noticed very recently has been nailing that in, you know, as you said, a place like Boston, with, you know, some of the like one one of the most famous bike mayors in the country and things like that. You would think that They would be there too. That's really interesting. speaker-0: Germany definitely has a huge c ⁓ car culture with like the Autobahn and everything. But in the US, we're overcoming a lot of car culture and a lot of like struggle to interconnect systems. I think a big thing about Germany is that local trains, and you mentioned those long distance trains, it's an integrated nationwide network. In the US, our transportation systems are broken up and so fragmented in ⁓ mass where I'm from. There's the MBTA, which is the greater Boston area. And then I forget the exact number, but it's somewhere around, I think maybe 10. ⁓ but don't quote me on that. RTAs are regional transit authorities that serve it's not even counties, they're like clustered chunks that are broken up and they're different from county infrastructure. And there's like where I'm living right now is technically in Northampton, which is mostly part of the Pioneer Valley Transit Authority, but the bus line I'm on is part of the Franklin Transit Authority. ⁓ and so it's this very disjointed net like network, and they're all governed slightly differently. speaker-2: Can go on and on about transit governance. I'm kind of obsessed right. But I was just thinking when Devin was talking about freezing the the long distance rail ⁓ prices in Germany. I was trying to get home gosh on Friday from Oregon and the Amtrak trains were all sold out. I think there's a huge, I mean they've had they've been sold out, but I think it's even more pressure right now because of the the gas prices and people really wanting to switch to rail. And the and the trains are sold out. And so I ended up they weren't sold out ⁓ the full distance. And so I got like halfway to Seattle on on Amtrak and then managed to switch to ⁓ some local buses and it took forever. ⁓ but that was, you know, and because there's all these little local systems that aren't, you know, always totally integrated. And I was glad to have those options. But, you know, we really need to be thinking about, yeah, with with gas prices the way they are and likely going even higher, what does that mean ⁓ for people who are on that? ⁓ edge of not being able to afford getting where they need to go and and and the climate potential ⁓ in that, like thinking about that from a sort of a just transition framework. speaker-0: Like you said, like it was sold out. There's definitely this demand for it. You can like people are riding it and thinking about like what would it mean to actively meet that demand. And and like you said, in doing so, provide a much more affordable option for people. I know Mass recently passed ⁓ has a fair share of tax. 70% went to education, 30% went to transportation. And With this, they brought in more revenue than they thought and all regional transportation has been free. ⁓ it's set to expire this summer. So fingers crossed it gets reauthorized ⁓ in the next budget round. But it's ⁓ a model that I think would be interesting if other states also considered making regional transportation free. speaker-2: Some of the smaller systems in Washington State have gone fare free in the pandemic and stayed that way. And it is it's cool. So one of the buses that I caught home ⁓ to Seattle the other day ⁓ was through our state capital region and and they're they've been fare free for a while. And it it is cool to see the ridership and I tend to be one of the oldest people on that bus that goes. ⁓ I just to me it's interesting to see how many young people are using transit. And I I imagine just, you know, percentage-wise, many of them probably have licenses. But it's probably a cost thing. And, you know, going up to Seattle can be really expensive gas-wise. You're sitting in traffic, you have to pay for parking. And just seeing ⁓ that that shift and seeing a lot of young people taking advantage of that free transportation to me feels exciting. That the other day, not this last trip, but another trip, there was someone transporting a very large like reptile, like fish tank kind of thing, like terrenium. And I don't know what was in it. And I was a little afraid to ask, and I really wish I had asked. It looks like they were moving apartments potentially and they were had all their stuff in a cart, including this terrarium and I I was quite a moment. speaker-1: I think Uno, you really touched on something too, that y you're allowing people to live without a burden as well. You know, when you don't feel you like you have to decide between paying for the bus or, you know, maybe paying for your kids' lunch at school, or you don't have to worry about getting chased down by the fare enforcement because there's no fare enforcement. Those are the kind of things that really live ⁓ in the back of people's minds that ⁓ you know, policymakers always forget. And ⁓ and if they were just to join you on the bus and see that, I think that that could be a pretty eye opening experience for them. speaker-0: I think that's one of the things I really admired about like hearing about the non-drivers movement is just getting politicians and planners on the bus. Cause so few of them like know what it truly is to not just take the bus when it's convenient, not just be a commuter going in on like the train once or twice a day when it's convenient, but to truly rely on this to have it be your first, second, third, and last option. and I think the It's something that everyone who's in office, anyone who works in a state DOT, anyone who works at the federal DOT should have to do, I think for at least a month is really these are the systems that you are designing. Rely on them. And also thinking about ⁓ the number I've been applying to jobs and like so I've gotten really familiar with requirements at DOTs and the number of job positions that require. Like you're working at a public transportation agency and ⁓ you need a driver's license. Like it's structurally enforced that the people who are making these systems are not the ones relying on them. speaker-2: Yeah, we've passed a bill here in Washington State based on ⁓ legislation in California and Oregon that tries to, you know, nudge employers to not have those driver's license requirements unless driving is quote an essential function, right, of the job. ⁓ and and then we've had, you know, various conversations with transit agencies, particularly being like, Okay, why does this transit planner need to have a driver's license? And had agencies push back on us, like, well, you know, they're going out to survey bus stops. like where where bus stops might be located in the future and they need to be able to drive to do that. And it's like, no, they really don't. Right. ⁓ they'll have a much better sense of what makes a good bus stop if there's someone who actually rides transit and knows, okay, what would make a good bus stop. speaker-0: Yeah, shout out to the ⁓ pickup and drop off bus stops on my current route where they're a six minute walk along a highway with no sidewalk. ⁓ so it's one's at the elder center, one's at the cemetery. And so on either end of the trip, someone is walking up a highway with no sidewalk and having to cross the street, either on your way back or your way there. speaker-1: I think that's actually probably a pretty good segue into talking about the complete streets ordinance or the complete streets laws in in Massachusetts. ⁓ I know I'm not familiar with them. ⁓ and I I'd be really interested to kinda get your your thoughts on ⁓ where they are now. I guess how they do respond well to the needs of non drivers and and where you see that there could be some work. ⁓ and then I'm also curious too, Anna and I have worked together in Seattle. It seems very easy to do stuff in Seattle versus in other parts of Washington State. I'm curious if ⁓ it's the same way i in in Boston versus the rest of Massa Massachusetts or ⁓ or how that works as well. speaker-0: Massachusetts has this program, Complete Streets. It's existed since 2016. ⁓ it used to be a three-tiered grant. ⁓ so in the first stage, municipalities had to pass some ordinance or policy committing their town to expanding complete streets, with complete streets being any street that supports multimodal transportation. So this means like you can drive, but you can also easily bike, walk, or take the bus all on the same street, and you can do so safely. And the program does have a really strong emphasis on like active transit, walking and biking as like the key priorities. If anything, they're those are the ones that should be easiest. ⁓ and then in the second stage, municipalities with some support from the state were required to create a prioritization plan, do community outreach, and identify what streets in their community would have the largest impact if they were made complete. And finally, they received funding to implement the complete streets program. So 10 years down the line, there's about an 336 grants issued. Almost every municipality has some ordinance committing them to complete streets. The state updated the program so it's no longer tiered. Anyone can just apply for a complete streets program, kind of under the logic. All right, most people ha already have an ordinance, already have some part of form of plan. Let's get this going. And so I would say complete streets are really good for downtown areas at a point like if you don't have a street, ⁓ If you're living out on a dirt road, you know, your streets probably not going to be the priority. ⁓ but the really interesting thing about complete streets and what's made them, I think, a win in terms of accessibility is they're inherently prioritizing a diversity of movement forms. And that works really well when you're trying to consider people who move, not like in the traditional way we think, be it with a car, like people who don't, who can't drive or people who use wheelchairs or anything. When you think about designing streets for a diversity of movement, you're expanding access. ⁓ and then what my thesis or my research has been looking at is kind of this notion of access friction. So in expanding access, there's now a greater diversity of people using the street. And so people with different needs, they're now more, they're interacting more. And it's you're noticing these moments of friction. And I wanna because this is not a bad thing. It's a sign that, like, ⁓ wow, we're having a win on equity. We're having a win on increasing mobility. And as we increase mobility, we now need to think about more users than traditionally have been thought about street design. And we need to think about, okay, not only how do we expand access, but how do we expand access in ways that are equitable and account for many ways of moving? Something I've been thinking a lot about in this research is bike lanes, where a lot of non-drivers, regardless of whether or not they can bike or not, have been like, ⁓ my gosh, bike lanes are amazing. They keep me separated from cars. They send this signal that this street values mobility beyond cars. And then a lot of people who drive or who rely on paratransit have been like, all right. The bike lanes are creating some new access barriers. They're not necessarily bad, but ⁓ I can't deploy an access ramp anymore and just get to the sidewalk. I now have to unload a mobility aid into oncoming bike traffic. And so complete streets, the next phase is all right, how do we solve these moments of friction and not use these moments of friction as an excuse to scrap complete streets or say, ⁓ bike lanes are inaccessible? Because bike lanes are actually increasing access for so many people. I think it's a bad faith argument to say that bike. lanes are against accessibility. It's no bike lanes create a chance for us to more deeply think through what it means to have access needs, what it means to be disabled and recognize that that is a broad umbrella we are a broad umbrella group and think through, okay, rather than just scrapping bike lanes, how do we design them in ways that deeply consider both non-drivers and people who rely on driving? How do speaker-2: you come to decide to do that your thesis on this? Like was there a personal ⁓ moment that you had ⁓ an experience of access friction with bike infrastructure or someone's someone's story that motivated your desire to do this research? speaker-0: think it had been kind of being in environmental and disability spaces and seeing some of the tension between those two movements and wanting something that brought them together and I think getting a little annoyed about what I felt like were bad faith arguments against like pedestrian infrastructure on the grounds of accessibility because I was always like, hey, that's that's helping me. That is accessible. But also wanting to like I ⁓ ran my school's disability ⁓ collective or co-ran it. And being like, ⁓ okay, like really recognizing my needs are not other people's needs. And at times these are very different. And I think I'm also lucky in that I come from a family where there's lots of different access needs floating around and they often sometimes are very different. ⁓ and so thinking through, all right, I can feel like this is a bad faith argument, but I can't just dismiss it as a bad faith argument because I do know that like there are some people who are disabled for whom driving is something that expands access. ⁓ and how do we think through how do we have a both and approach? And also like things that came up in my research were people who were like, ⁓ yeah, I would take the bus if the bus stop I could guarantee had benches where I could wait and sit, or if I could guarantee that the bus would come on time and I wouldn't be stuck waiting several minutes or even like hours out in the heat or the rain. speaker-2: Devin and I are both folks who, you know, can't drive but can bike. And I think we chatted a little bit about your your biking and in your vision isn't at a place where like urban biking is something that you would ⁓ consider. Cause I think a lot of times people working in this sort of space, you know, do sort of have that personal experience of being able to use biking as transportation and experiencing that access, right? ⁓ and so I think it's it's interesting that in and great that you're coming to this from a perspective that's that's not, you know, the way that you access the city. ⁓ but understanding the nuance that it can be somet a way that other other people do and other disabled people do, I think is is awesome. speaker-0: Yeah, and something I was thinking about. ⁓ I when I lived in Germany, I was visiting a friend in ⁓ Amsterdam. And I've like everyone holds Amsterdam up as this like, ⁓ wow, look at them. They have all this bike infrastructure. ⁓ they're such a model of sustainability of non-driver. And I Amsterdam was so bad for me. ⁓ I'm blind, like I'm blind, my vision's not great, so can't bike. And I just like kept getting almost hit by all of these bikers. There was no bike signals that were beeping. And I think it's still great that like you can move through the city center and if you're hit by a bike, you're probably not gonna die. If you get hit by a car, you might. Like there is that very like practical trade-off, but also thinking about all right, how do we also implement bike infrastructure in ways that protects walkers? And also being in like Amsterdam and be everyone's like, ⁓ yeah, of course you bike. The biking takes like, you know, 10 minutes and the train is gonna take you 40. ⁓ so also thinking what does it mean to have both quality public transit and quality bike infrastructure alongside each other. speaker-2: I think there really is this ⁓ we we don't acknowledge enough when we're thinking about complete streets. And I think about floating bus stops in particular, the the points of friction we are creating between pedestrians and cyclists and what that feels like as a as a pedestrian, especially a blind or low vision pedestrian, ⁓ when you aren't, you know, as cars make a lot of noise, bikes don't. And ⁓ and and that's that's that's a thing. And we are creating these these Points of conflict. speaker-1: Well, it's also, you know, a bike is a lot easier to kinda pick up and start doing than to get in a car, right? You know, and so there is that kind of level of safety. ⁓ I I think about ⁓ I got hit by a like a twelve year old kid on an electric scooter, maybe I don't know, six months ago crossing the street and he you know, he just wasn't paying attention and I didn't die. It I've been hit by a SUV. It feels a lot worse, but it still didn't feel good to be hit by that scooter and You know, there there are, like Anna said, there's still those those kind of choke points where e you know, maybe someone is riding the wrong way down a bike lane. You look one way when you're crossing the hit to go to the bus stop and you get hit. And, you know, like those are th those are those kinds of things that are teachable moments for folks. And ⁓ but, you know, I really like how y you kind of pulled out this idea that, you know, a lot of the folks in in all of these advocacy spaces, you know, we always end up being kind of our own biggest advocate. And if there are more of one group of people, for example in Amsterdam with bicyclists, you end up being this bicycle advocacy city. speaker-0: Often some of my frustration on like the climate end and policy end is it's not a bad faith argument. It's just people's last priority because it's not the thing people rely on. So it gets pushed down to the bottom of the advocacy list. And I think that's changing. I've witnessed transportation, I think, in the past few years come up a lot more in climate spaces. And granted, that may be the bias of I've just gotten a lot more loud about it. So people tend to come to me and I tend to seek out the transportation people. An organization that I think deserves a really big shout out is the group Transportation for Massachusetts. They've done a lot of work convening people from disability, from environmental, from like racial justice, from housing all together under the umbrella of transportation and helping make it a priority and really making visible and clear all of these connection points. speaker-2: When you were doing the research, was there anything that surprised you that came out of the interviews that you did? speaker-0: I was asking about these access frictions, and people were really strong on like, okay, okay, like sure, maybe some frictions exist, but really let's talk about shared access barriers. Let's talk about shared solutions. And there was really this sense of camaraderie among all of the participants in focus groups. That was something maybe not surprising, but I think that really stood out as something that was pushed by participants and a really clear point of view. And some of the work that I'm doing this summer is I'm Diving more into this research and taking more of a policy lens. I've done some very preliminary policy analysis. And when looking at complete street grants, like the documents, when they consider access, they consider the ADA as the gold standard of how we make it ADA accessible. And for participants, access didn't come from guidelines. It doesn't come from do this and it will be accessible. Because as the entire thesis is talking about, is there's so many different needs that need to be met. You can't standardize it. But what participants noted. Is that access comes through community? Access comes through having discussions with people with different disabilities. It comes from having people with disabilities, having people who are non-drivers, people who are transit reliant in the discussions about planning it and thinking, shifting the way that we perceive access from a set of checks and guidelines and codes to access as an ongoing iterative process that is community driven and based in relationships. speaker-2: Yeah, one thing I really appreciated about your thesis is that you also, you know, went into a little bit of the the different ways that people that gender or race or socioeconomic status impacts access, right? Which is not something really that the ADA can touch. ⁓ do you want to say anything more around those pieces? speaker-0: One of the things that came up in my thesis was this idea of access sometimes being uneven. These notions where access is financially or physically accessible, like people could be mobile, but because they had some social identity that was otherwise marginalized would be like I will use this infrastructure, but I don't necessarily feel safe. I think of the number of genderqueer and trans participants who mentioned taking pride pins off of backpacks who mentioned trying to present more in line with like a binary gender to avoid harassment on the bus. And also like thinking about how many of these participants were like, yeah, like definitely this is a mental toll. It feels unsafe, but I'm still going to use it because that's the option that's available. And thinking through what would it mean to have a world that isn't just accessible, but a world that is safe. speaker-1: It seems like with this work though you have been kind of moving on a progression, you know, looking back to when you were in Germany and you were saying that you wanted, you know, this is where you realize you want to work in transportation planning and you wanna make you know things more equitable and access better for all people and then you move y you know, into into school and you're doing this thesis and you're turning this thesis into a policy brief. It really looks like there's a forward trajectory in all that you're doing. ⁓ you know, as you're turning this into a a policy brief, what does the future of that work look like for you? speaker-0: You I have been fortunate enough to talk to some people at ⁓ Mast Dots Mobility Program, which is a new program specifically looking to fill in the gaps for people with disabilities for older adults and kind of that transportation connection and access. I'm in a a position of kind of transition, moving out of college, thinking about moving to a new city. So also seeing where that will take me and will take this work, but I know for sure it is something that I want to continue on doing. speaker-2: I had to say the non-Darma movement is so ⁓ lucky to have you working in this space. ⁓ and especially with your background, you know, connecting those climate pieces, ⁓ understanding the rural experience, ⁓ understanding that we don't have to be limited by just what, you know, happens in the US so we can think more, more internationally. I think it's when you reached out and we started chatting, I was I was so excited because I I it makes me very hopeful for the kind of places ⁓ we can build. Is there anything else you wanna share with our listeners about your experience, about your hopes for the future, about non driver access, about climate justice? Well speaker-0: say thank you for like answering my email and for writing your book. I think when I read it, I was like, wow, I'm not crazy. Like there's other people doing this work. ⁓ and it's been really cool to see everything like you've done in Seattle to see like new transportation stops being added to like I there's one story you wrote about in your book, I think it was one politician had like a medical emergency and realized during the week with the realized he couldn't get to healthcare. And how that like ripple affected out into expanded like interconnection to healthcare through public transportation. And that was really cool to see. ⁓ in terms of one thing to leave listeners with, I think this is I'm gonna be speaking here more to the people who are drivers or who have the option of driving. Take your bus, walk on your street, and when you do so, talk to people. There is so many wonderful stories. Of resilience and also hope and community that really happen on the bus that happen when you take the time or are forced to take the time to slow down and move at the speed of public infrastructure. And do this not just as like a study and like human connection, but this is an act of climate justice. Climate justice is yes, we need to reduce our emissions, but we also need to build stronger. social relationships where we're not just tied in these bubbles of the people who are like us. Climate justice demands that we build strong, thriving communities where we meet the needs of people who historically haven't had their needs met. And so when you reach out and you talk to people, you're building community. And when you have people gathering, you're exchanging all of these stories and life experiences and really building up that like mutual aid network. We are in an era where Public transportation is being underfunded. There's not that much happening at the federal level. We're realizing that like the systems of public infrastructure are so based on this four year cycle. And even then, they're not like well funded and invested in. So what does it mean to start building out our own infrastructure of care, our own infrastructure of mobility? And part of that is reaching out to people. is building those connections, is offering people rides, is riding the bus together, is taking a walk together. And yeah, these are all practices of mutual aid. And I think we can build out mutual aid into systems of mutual care eventually. speaker-1: Honestly, like those are the the kind of things that people need to focus on when they're creating policy. You know, that care should be the central point of what a government does for its people. And ⁓ you know, hopefully as you're looking at the next step, you know, wha whether it's organizing, inside or outside of government, you know, those are the ki kinds of things that need to be taken into account. So I'm really excited for what we get to learn is next in on your journey. speaker-2: I'm speaker-0: Wicked excited to stay involved. ⁓ hopefully, not this year, but hopefully next year, there'll be a week without driving in Boston. ⁓ if I'm there and have anything to say about it. And am really appreciative of this podcast that that you've created in the ways that it's hopefully like building all of these connections across the country of people and across the world at the moment, doing this non-driver work. speaker-2: Thanks for listening to Non-Driver. I'm Anna Zievarts. speaker-1: And I'm Devin Silvernail. If today's conversation resonated with you, please subscribe and share the show with a friend. speaker-2: You can also leave us a review wherever you listen. It genuinely helps other people find the show. speaker-1: Non-Driver is brought to you by the Non-Drivers Alliance. Find more info at non-drivers.org. speaker-2: And this episode was produced by Devin. speaker-1: Wanna get in touch? Email us at non-driverpodcast at proton.me ⁓ speaker-2: We'll see you next week.