Latest / Dadical / 2. Focus on Your Kids' Strengths, Not Their Weaknesses | Dave Cameron

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2. Focus on Your Kids' Strengths, Not Their Weaknesses | Dave Cameron · Dadical

• Seth Stoker: Welcome to the Dadical Podcast. In today's episode, you're going to get an opportunity to hear from a dad who approaches fatherhood from a very different perspective. He's an analytical mind that recognizes patterns, focuses on segmentation, and it's reflected in the way he parents his children. You're also going to learn why fixing weaknesses may not be the best strategy as a dad. I'm excited to introduce you to Dave Cameron. Dave was one of my instructors at the University of Chicago in the Chief Revenue Officer course. What's so impressive about Dave is he had a very successful career leading customer segmentation for Nielsen Company. He left that career to be more present for his children because he cares about the impact that he can have as a father. He's going to share with us his successes as a dad and a couple of moments he'd love to have back. And I'm excited for you to hear his story today. A couple of administrative notes before we dive into the episode. Do you know a dad with a story worth sharing? If you do, I'd love to talk to them. Fill out a contact form at my website, dadiclepodcast.com. In addition, you can follow Dadical Podcast on all the social channels you use. Subscribe, like, and rate the episode so that other dads who are interested in these conversations can find us. Okay, let's get into it. Here's Dave Cameron. Dave, thanks so much for joining the Dadical Podcast. Really excited to have Dave on the podcast today. I met Dave through the University of Chicago. He was one of my instructors. And Dave teaches a class called predictive analytics. And one thing that I learned very quickly about Dave is that he thinks very differently than I do. Dave is an analytical thinker, analytical mind. And because of that, I thought it would be really cool to get to know Dave's approach to fatherhood. as such an analytical thinker and how that kind of differs from from my vision of fatherhood and things like that. And so Dave, we're excited to get to know you and your background and and your journey as a father. Why don't you introduce us to your family, tell us a little bit more about yourself and then we'll dive in from there. Dave Cameron: Great, thanks Seth. Appreciate your invite. I you know, quickly professionally, as Seth said, I'm a I don't know what you'd call it, mainly marketing analytics for the most part. I have a master's degree in it. It's been my career, I've done well. and I have been married for I'll admit 40 years now. I have two two quote kids. One is 30, the other is 24, and Seth Stoker: Congratulations. Dave Cameron: I've been married for nine years or so before my first child was born. And part of that is I was focused on, you know, I want to do well in my career. I want to, you know, make sure my marriage, you know, we're strong if something happens and all that. And so my first child was born when I was 33. And it definitely changed my life. And I made some decisions throughout with both of my offspring. My daughter, my daughter is a 30-year-old, my son is a 24-year-old. But both of them are well adjusted adults who have a a a good work ethic and are respected within their fields. Seth Stoker: Very cool. So so Dave, let's let's back up. I I I'd love to learn more about your kids and and things like that, but I'd love to back up to even when you were growing up. Tell me about your father or or maybe if it wasn't your father, the most impactful father figure that you had in your life. Dave Cameron: Yeah, my childhood was interesting because I was the I was an only child. My parents had a rough time having kids. My mom found it tough to get pregnant and everything. And she even said I came along later than they'd hoped. They'd been married for seven years, which was really unusual the nineteen sixties, you know, type of thing, and saying, man. but when I was born, see, my parents got married when they were nineteen. And in reality, they pr I'm not I'm not gonna complain because I'm here. But they probably shouldn't have. They weren't mature enough. And they ended up going through a divorce when I was young. And I first got moved with my mom because that's what happens, right? You know, you you go to the mom, she's the mother figure, and that's what the courts decide, what people do. But it really wasn't working out. I was going into adolescence and I needed that father figure. And so I ended up moving back in with my dad, and he knocked himself out to make sure that. I, you know, with without having a mother around that I would grow up to be a well-adjusted adult. and so my actual biological father became much more of a role model at age eleven when my parents divorced and when I moved back in with them than earlier. And it was great because I went through things where when we first started, you know, he's my dad and so on and so on. By the time I was in high school, we were actually having conversations as if I were an adult. You know, and it it was great. We got it gotten far enough that he was treating me as if I was twenty five instead of fifteen, you know, and and talking through explanations. And I I just felt that was so valuable. I I matured more quickly because of it. And you know, he was forgiving of mistakes, not to say we didn't have time for we yelled at each other. But that transition I don't think would have happened if my parents had gotten divorced and my dad recognized that, at eleven years old when they got divorced, he was still treating me as I was an eight year old. By the time I was fifteen, he was treating me as if I were twenty five, you know. it's funny one thing stuff I remember you to get stories is that I was 19, I think. yeah, it was between my freshman and sophomore year of college and I moved back, you know, I was in the dorms and I came back and I got a job selling vacuum cleaners. You know, I was trying to make money to get myself through college. And it was miserable. You ever try going door to door sales, you know, and you're doing vacuum cleaners. I mean, just think about that. It's like, yeah, it it was rough. And when I told my dad I wanted to quit, and I said, Well, sales, door to door sales is definitely not for me. He encouraged it and he says, You're gonna work the rest of your life. Take this summer, enjoy it. Maybe the last time you get to do it. Now that wasn't necessarily the case, but it certainly was for quite a number of years afterwards. And that kind of pragmatism was really good. Seth Stoker: yeah. So your dad, you you mentioned that your dad talked to you like you were an adult, even when you were younger. How can you be more specific? Because I'd love to understand that a as a dad with with a thirteen year old kid at the youngest and a nineteen year old kid at the oldest, maybe there's some things that we can capture from that as as dads of younger children. Dave Cameron: Well, one thing, I was i i I don't want to make it sound like I'm bragging about myself, but since you already talked about University of Chicago, the neighborhood I grew up in was heavily blue collar. It was five miles from Ford Motor Company's largest assembly automotive plant in the world. and fifty percent of the guys on my block, the men, work for Ford Motor Company as laborers. And I found out when I was like seven years old that my friends could take a car engine and apart and put it back together and I couldn't. On the flip side, I was considered smart. And in seventh grade, I they posted, I went to a junior high school. So where I went elementary school was through sixth grade. Seventh grade they posted the grade point. And at the first quarter, I was fifth out of a class of 200 people. And I was like, wow. And my dad recognized that too. Eighth, so I decided I'm gonna shoot for it. Eighth grade I was number one. And so He actually switched me to a college prep high school, but he explained it to me. He says, Look, you come out of here, the high school you're gonna go to, most people get jobs on the assembly line when they get out. They play the lowest common denominator. If you want to go to a good college, you want to go to good university, I'm gonna pay and it's gonna be hard, but to switch schools, but you gotta knock yourself out. You gotta give it your best effort because if you can make it through there, you might be able to get a college scholarship, you might be able to get through. And you know, he laid it on the line for me and he was basically saying, Look, I'm putting ten percent of my income away for this. This is really important, so don't F it up, you know, was kind of the thing. but he also talked about the benefits on my end that said, Look, you're not an assembly line type of person. This could get you into a good college, this could get you a good job afterwards. And he started talking about, you know, gradually talking about careers and stuff like that. But it wasn't that wasn't all one discussion. This took several over the course of weeks because you had to I don't know what's the really ingrained thoughts, but it went against what most people did, so you had to gradually work into it. Seth Stoker: Man, I love that story because as a dad, it it seems like if I'm taking a principle from that story, it's your job as a dad is to recognize the potential that your kids have and where their strengths are and to help them figure out how to magnify those strengths and help them understand their potential. Dave Cameron: you nailed it with a strength, Seth. I'll give you an example for my son. My son was a 3.7 student in high school, 93rd, 95th percentile on the ACT. but yet he went to university for one year and now he's working full time because he was also an actor and he was good. He was the best actor in his high school for all of for the four years from h you know his age. And he now has a job full-time acting, performing, which is what he really wants. It was his strengths. I mean, he used to one of the stories we'd come back to is I I worked with him when he was in c Boy Scouts. And he became we had about 80 kids in our Boy Scout troop. And the way it would work is you had a meeting that started at seven and finished at 8:30 with different activities. But when kids were going to get rank advancements, there was a board of parents who would Take the kids, interview, talk to them, make sure they were ready for it, and then vote yes or no. Well, sometimes it would run over. And what my son had done at one of these scout meetings was he went through and he he basically did a one act no, that's not improv in front of solo improv in front of the group. And like he started off, he says, You know, we were working with all these boxes today. Now I just came back from the zoo and I saw an ox. And then there are multiple of and they're oxen. So if I'm working with a box, if the plural of ox is oxen, why isn't the plural box boxen? And he just had everybody, eating out of his hand and everything. We talked for a while and it was like, no, he's not gonna be a desk job person. He could do well in sales, but he if he's gonna I mean, he would have done okay in sales, but for for forming was just so much there. And that's what happened when he was twenty years old. He got a job as a full time actor, and he's been doing it for four years. So when you said play into your strengths, most parents would have said, Hey, look, you're a three point seven student. You got the I did just quick quick check, you got a ninety fifth percentile on the standardized test. You need to go to a university for four years. But that wasn't his I mean, it sounds like his strengths, but n he's ninety-ninth percentile for acting. You just gotta go there. Seth Stoker: You know, and what I'm hearing from both your experience and your experience with your father is you have to be a present dad in order to recognize those things. You've got to be involved, to be able to see the strengths that your kids have so that you can help them realize that potential. And what I love about your dad's story too is he said, Look, I'm gonna invest in you. Like I'm gonna help you accomplish this, but You have a big responsibility in this too. This isn't just handed to you and then and then you do with it what you will. It's I'm gonna make a deal with you. I'm gonna invest in your future and help you magnify your strengths, but you better stick to this standard. awesome. Okay, so so we we've got a little bit of that in your experience with your son, help helping him you know, encouraging him to focus on his strengths and things like that. Tell me more about how your experience with your father and the impact that he had on your life, how did that shape the type of father that you became? Dave Cameron: Well, you hit on one of it is understanding strengths. I think that everybody's different. So if you think back, try to put yourself in my place where you're eight years old. You're growing up in a neighborhood where everybody's blue collar, they're but they take pride in their work. This is a town where we we were solid, you know, middle class people worked hard, they took pride in their work, but it was heavily working, you know, again, as laborers at Ford Motor Company. It wasn't necessarily working on the assembly line. Some of them were building stuff, right? And the fact that it was really valued in my neighborhood to take, you know, be able to build a car, take it apart, understand all this. And I couldn't understand it at all. But recognizing that fast forward a few years, I was an all-A student in eighth grade, being able to say, hey, everybody's different. There are, you know, how many, I don't know how many people, 330, 350 million people in the US. There's a lot of different jobs. You know, find f find one that you placed your strengths that you can be excellent at. I think that, you know, taking something from below average to above average isn't really the way to go. It's taking something that's good and saying, I can make it great. Right. And then my company will do well, I'll do well, all that kind of stuff. And the same thing, like I said with my son, it's like, understanding that 90th percentile means you're better than 90% of the people at something, 50th percentile means you're better than 50% of the people. What I've learned in parenting and in just you know, that kind of life in general is that if you're 50th percentile at something, you can work your tail off and maybe make it to 80th. But if you're already 90th, you've got a chance to be great, you got a chance to do something where you can be top and g really strong in in your field and if you like it so much the better. So a lot of what we're taught in schools or what some people are taught is, you need to fix your weaknesses. You're an A student and everything, but you're a C student in math, start doing math. And I tell you, no, just don't go into math. You know, where you're an A student, focus in that area. I had a student recently who took a programming class for me who was a marketing major and she was really struggling. And I said, Well don't Take the class. You know, you're not gonna be a programmer type. But she understood that paid search was falling by the wayside with what was going on in AI long before the rest of us did. And it's like, you're really good there. You need to leverage that and become great. And that's what I t I didn't I couldn't tell that to my kids in those words, but that's the way I approached it with them. And that's the way my it went back to my story. My dad approached it with me when he realized, Dave's a lot different than most people in this neighborhood. He's really academically focused, albeit he can talk well. so perhaps we're gonna really focus on this grades and college prep school and everything. and again, it's one of those things that you can't get across in a tw ten minute conversation. It to my mind it has to be evolutionary over years. Does that make sense? Seth Stoker: totally. Well, and and and the fact of the matter is, you don't just recognize their strengths all at once either. You see them develop, see what works and what doesn't work, and then you help them refine it from there. It reminds me of my 19 year old son. He's my oldest, and he hated school. And and we had high expectations. We were very strict. One year he wasn't able to go on a fishing trip that we went on because he didn't keep above a B average, which was our expectation for him and things like that. But But he's the only kid I've had who has pushed back so hard on on the academic side of things. And he's a smart kid, but just hated school. And so I wasn't about to encourage him to go to a four-year year university, continuing to do things that he already hated. So he's he's actually enrolled in trade school and working as an electrical apprentice right now. And with the way things are going, you know, what we've seen in software and and a lot of the the white-collar jobs. blue collar jobs and and blue collar opportunities are becoming bigger and bigger and and so I think he's he's made a great choice, but that's exactly it. We recognize what's going to be good for them, what what their personality traits help you will help lend them to most effectively and things like that. And then we encourage them to double down on those things. And I think he's gonna love that career. Dave Cameron: Could. Yeah, and and as long as you can make a living off of it and that and certainly those as you pointed out, the market is strong in that area. I can't see why you couldn't make a strong living off of it. Seth Stoker: Yeah, for sure. So so let's talk about how you view your responsibility as a father. You it sounds like you had a great example of a dad in your own life. what is your biggest requirement or responsibility as a father? Dave Cameron: That was evolutionary too. one of the things that I had when my when I was a little kid, my mom had got a book called How to Raise a Brighter Child. And it wasn't about how to become a four point student. It was about how to recognize what's going on in the world and how to adjust to it and adapt and all that kind of stuff. And so for me It was trying to understand their viewpoint and then explain how that would work in in in the real world. one of the things I think people find it really hard is to get in somebody else's head, right? I actually, back to my professional side, I led consumer segmentation for the Nielsen company globally for many years. And know, Seth, when you did the introduction, you talked about taking a class me in predictive analytics. you probably remember the segmentation example I gave. And the idea was when you get into as an adult, you i th there are different segments of the US and and one of them could be like the blue collar town where I grew up in, and v very homogeneous. I mean, I don't know anybody ex you know, out of the parents I grew up with that had a steady white collar job, but everybody that had blue collar jobs and a lot of them were, you know, some were like I said, just working on the assembly line, but most of them were more you needed more trade stuff but that was totally foreign to twelve miles north of where I was where it was a heavy more executive at companies type of thing and stuff like that and neither could understand where each other came from. And I think one of the reasons it came to me is because I didn't fit in in the neighborhood I was. Early on it was actually more of somewhat almost an inferiority complex because I didn't fit in with everybody else. But later on, when I realized, but I actually can get a steadier job than them with the white-collar skills and not be tied to an employer, it worked out better in the long run. And because of that recognition as a parent, it's the same thing for me is I take the time to understand what my kids are thinking, and then I gradually work towards saying, okay, within that, kind of segmenting in my own mind, how do I help them within that sphere? And an example was when my daughter took up violin lessons. And it was one of the things she thought about. She got into orchestra and stuff like that. And I'm like, okay, let me find out what it's like to be in an orchestra. Let me find out that kind of stuff. And learn how to help her become a successful orchestral performer. Now that phase only lasted a couple years. But it was at least getting through that and deciding is this something I really like? And at the end of two years she realized, nah, I'd keep it up if I was going to do it for a career, but I'm not going to do that. Seth Stoker: What I love about that though is it sounds like it's really important to you. If your kid goes down a certain path, you're you're bought in and all of a sudden you're learning how to how to help support her, becoming the best orca orchestra performer that she can be or whatever the case may be. And so as a dad, you're jumping in and supporting them in whatever it is that they're choosing to pursue. Dave Cameron: Right. And then they can come to the realization at some point, so back to my ninetietth or fiftieth percentile type of thing, my daughter realized she wasn't gonna be a ninetieth percentile violin player, but she could be a fiftieth, and she's like, Well, okay, it's a hobby, but I'm not gonna spend the time on it I was spending Seth Stoker: that's cool. it's so interesting as a as a dad too. Like so I've got two boys and a girl. my boys are my oldest and my youngest, and my girl's in the middle. And I coach basketball with my with both of my boys all growing up. And so it's super easy to get into their stuff. my daughter has been big into dance since she was four or five years old. And so we we've been a dance family for a long time. And I'll be honest, before my daughter got into dance, I had zero interest in dance. And now I 10 years later, I'm the biggest dance fan there is when it comes to my daughter. I I don't particularly enjoy watching other people's kids dance, but I love watching my daughter dance. And and it's just funny how as a dad, you just learn to buy into whatever it is that you that your kids love to do, and you want to encourage them doing stuff that they love to do. Dave Cameron: one more story on that. When I talked about my daughter for my son, he jo I mentioned he was in Boy Scouts. I don't like camping. you know, and you've got to do that with Boy Scouts. So when he first joined, I didn't sign up. I just let him so okay, do his thing and whatever. and then something happened in the summer. He went to a week long summer camp. He went and the guy that drove him back, I don't yeah, he didn't have a cell phone yet. He was eleven. And the guy that dro drove him back. didn't call me and tell me that my son was there. And he just left him in the school parking lot. He's an 11-year-old. And I went ballistic. You know, I called the Scoutmaster and Scoutmaster said, Hey, this guy didn't follow, you know, protocol, but he didn't know and all that. and everything. And and that gave me this thing and said, Well, maybe instead of complaining about it, I should join and sign up. So I did, and and back to the strengths thing is I never helped set up the camping gear. I never helped. Seth Stoker: Oof. Dave Cameron: do, you know, all that kind of stuff and load the trailer. But on the flip side, one of the things that scouts had to do, I said when the rank advancement is they had to present in front of the parents what they did and why the r they deserved the rank advancements. I became the coach for that because as you can tell, you invited me on this, I've taught that's a strength of mine. And my son really liked that too and he got into it where he would say, okay, I'm gonna be the one who's gonna talk in front of the troop, and it led to that improv type of thing. And so recognizing 70% of the kids were introverts and would prefer to just set up the campground. I said, Well, that's fine, you just need to do well enough. Some of them were the like my son was at the top couple percent for extroversion. I recognized I needed to work with him to say, Hey, get in front of everybody, talk, get them motivated, get them excited. Seth Stoker: So you waited until 33 to have kids. That that's a significantly different path than I had. I think I was twenty three when I had my first kid. tell me about when you when you did make the decision to go ahead and and have your first kid, you said it changed your life. How? Dave Cameron: so when I was in my late twenties, my wife didn't tell me this until after my daughter was born. You know, friends of ours that were our age were having kids and they would come over, we go to theirs, and she said I'd run the other way. and everything. What happened when my daughter was born is that changed. I embraced it. I I would come home. I actually had a job at the Nielsen company where I was traveling like 30% of the time. I I ended up leaving that job and I took one with a local phone company doing the same sort of thing. It was target marketing. But I only had to travel maybe once a quarter. And that way I could be there when I came home. I could spend time with my daughter and that kind of stuff. she was really into stories when she was two, three years old. I would read to her every single night. and I I would you know I would then she would come up with her own stories and we'd play and she'd go through and all this kind of stuff as she got a little older and what have you. And I I would just spend a lot of time with her. And you know, i it encouraging the stories, she's still a good storyteller, but encouraging the stories was a good way again to understand where she's coming from, how she thinks and spend time with her. Seth Stoker: You know, I love that because I think it's easy. Let's be honest, a two or or th or three year old kid, pro I guess especially a three year old kid, their stories are not interesting most of the time. You know, I I I've listened to many a boring story from my kid. but it it's Dave Cameron: Okay. Seth Stoker: Cool to see that that regardless, you took the time to be present and listen. and that became that became an important experience, it sounds like for both of you. What do you what impact do you think it had, investing that time early on and and reading to your daughter every night and things like that? Dave Cameron: I I think she recognizes that and going a little bit beyond that I'm willing to listen to her type of thing. And so when she has situations that she's run across in her adult life, she has no problem with saying, Hey, I could use somebody to listen and give some advice here. one of the things that both my kids got impacted with was COVID, and you understand because yours would have as well. Seth Stoker: Mm-hmm. Dave Cameron: And how to deal with that. Well, she was actually an adult at the time because she was 23 when it hit. but what happened is she was in New Zealand, she had a job there, she was working in her field and everything. And all of a sudden, because of COVID, she had to quit the job and come back to the US because she wasn't a New Zealand resident. And that was really hard. She had to give up a job because of it that she liked. she had to move back in with her parents because of forced unemployment and all that kind of stuff. but instead of getting resentful about it, which me may have originally, at one point she just said, Can we go out for a walk and talk? And I think we covered four miles. And she was explaining that, hey, I been out of university for a year, I had a good job, I had moved out, I was in a different country. I don't want to feel like I'm leeching off my parents. And the fact that she could be open with that, I think was is a consequence of those listening to those stories. Seth Stoker: Yeah, now she's never going to feel like, I don't want to bug dad with that because he's he's too busy or he's got more important things to do or that sort of thing. She feels comfortable bringing her challenges to you and talking them through with you and it sounds like you're able to give her good counsel. It seems like okay, so if we're if we're looking at it from a principal's perspective, I think the the thing to take out of that is is it is so important for them to realize That you value communication with them. The same way that you said your dad talked to you as if you were an adult and things like that, that still impacts you today. Like I can tell when you tell the story that that still impacts you. And now your daughter feels comfortable counseling with you with her challenges and things like that. And you're still able to have a big impact on her, even as an adult. So, as parents, I think. We have a million things going on, especially now. We got plenty of distractions. As a parent, you've you've got a phone in your hand that can certainly take away most of your attention and things like that if you let it. And all the while your kids are watching how you choose to interact with them, how you choose to be present with them. And you can either shut down communication. and really hurt your relationship with that kid and and hurt your your ability or opportunity to be a resource for them. Or you can be present with them, you can give them your full attention and as a result, counsel with them and and really help them through challenges in their lives. Dave Cameron: You're right. Seth Stoker: So let's let's move forward then. I would love to understand what some of the most fulfilling experiences you've had are as a father. What are what are your best memories as a dad? Dave Cameron: I'll say it's being present for events, but it's not necessarily an event per se, like, I've been to all my kids' baseball games. It's a turning point or or what have you. Like when my son did his first play, you know, I mentioned he's a performer for a living now at age twenty-four. he was like eight years old. It was a elementary school, a church thing. I really honestly don't remember. But what I do remember was he was so excited about it and how it went and and all that kind of stuff. And the fact that, I was I had just been, what is it right now? I just been promoted to director. Things were busy, but I, you know, again, made the time and I went and all that. And it's funny because when he got in high school, you know, I didn't go to every single one of his performances. It would by then it was more of a routine. But when it's not the routine, when it's something that all of a sudden it's like, it's the first time this has happened or the first time it hits or stuff like that. And so that was an example with him. and in Scouts it was interesting because at the end, he actually so there's a thing in Boy Scouts, it's called national youth leadership training. You have to show leadership traits and be nominated by like the Scoutmaster to take it because you know not everybody's meant to be a leader. And, you know, with his performance in front of the group and that kind of stuff, they recommended it for him. Well, when he did it, he was running it for for a week and it was at a camp in Michigan. I live in the Chicago area, it's a four hour drive. And there's an amusement park nearby. And when it was over and I picked him up, I said, let's go to the amusement park. And for the first two hours he unloaded on me and all the challenges he had and all that kind of stuff. And I knew that was gonna happen. And so I said, Well let's go someplace where he's gonna like where you know, we're not going to a restaurant. We're standing in line waiting for the roller coaster. And then he could talk for a while. We get on the roller coaster and he forgets about for a while. We get to the next l l you know, line and that kind of stuff. So it's when you said things that are stuck with me, it's like, I wanted to find a way to make that one an event where he would feel comfortable but not overloaded. Where he would talk for five minutes while we're in line. We'd get on the ride and then take a little break. Then he'd come back to it. And little by little he'd just, you know, get it off his chest. Seth Stoker: And I guarantee, something that seems like maybe a a small, a s a small scenario or or a small act that you did, just taking him to the amusement park no park, no big deal. I would imagine that's a pretty good memory for him of time he spent with his dad. Dave Cameron: I would hope so. Seth Stoker: So what's a what's one that you would like to have back? A a a mulligan where you feel like, hey, I didn't get that right as a dad, and I'd love to go back and redo that. Dave Cameron: my son had again, I told you he was a good student, but he wasn't like again, 3.7 in high school, 95th percentile on the standardized test. But my daughter was more in in reality, she wasn't quite as strong as he was academically, but she did almost as well grade wise. but she was still strong too. She was you know, she was like 90th percentile or whatever. And he but he would There was an online system where I don't know if you got this for your kids, but like when you're in high school and junior high, at least they you could go in and you could see how they were doing for grades and assignments and stuff like that as an a as a parent that, my son was lying to me. He was telling me, I finished this assignment or I did this. And pretty soon I got a note from the teacher that said he's getting a D in the class. And I, told him you gotta step it up and everything, and he did, and then he came back and he says, Well, I did that assignment, but it didn't show up on the thing. I got really mad. I have a front closet that has a mirror glass window in front of it and I slammed them against it and broke the window and everything like that. And that's what I regret because I just felt like we've been talking about this. I don't like it when my kids lie to me and this was important. But the fact that I like literally lost it and and and that that that was something, you know, I wish I hadn't done. Seth Stoker: So reflecting back on that then, what what impact do you think that had on him? Dave Cameron: I think he realized how serious it was for me at the time. but I think it was also one of those things where for a while it made him rebellious, you know. He's a teenager, right? And that kind of stuff. And it took a while to get around that. In the long run, it worked out great because what looking back at it is realizing that that tells me he wasn't geared for like an academic type field or going to a college or something like that, even though the had the aptitude for it. Seth Stoker: Mm-hmm. Dave Cameron: it wasn't in this interest set. And finding something different, like the acting type of thing, was there. But, you know, you can imagine, as you said, most parents, you mentioned the one with your own son and the be in fishing and all that kind of stuff. Similar type of thing. It was like looking back at it now being more mature, I realized, yeah, but he shouldn't have lied to us, but maybe we kind of put him in a position where he didn't feel he could be honest with us. Seth Stoker: Hm. What do you mean? Dave Cameron: because it was so important for us to say, Hey, you you can be an A student, why are you screwing up here? you know, type of thing. Seth Stoker: Got it, got it. So looking back, you feel like maybe you created an environment where i it didn't feel safe for him to be honest with you, and so he felt like he needed a lie. Do you feel like maybe some trust was lost that had to be built back up after that scenario? Dave Cameron: Yeah, yeah. And I think it definitely was later on. It it because it was a realization for me too, because I I hadn't gotten that angry with him for a long time. Seth Stoker: Yeah. I mean, as parents, we all have those moments that we'd like to have back. We're we're tired, we're busy, we're we're we've got a lot going on, and and so w we don't always act at our best. I guess maybe my neck my follow-up question to that would be, how did you handle that? Knowing that you that you should have handled it better, how did you earn that trust back? Dave Cameron: I think it was just gradual over time of support for other things. He actually did pick it up a little bit and realized, hey, I haven't decided what I want to do in life. And so there was a good side to it from that perspective of saying he got the grades up, like said graduated of 3.7. It kept his options open. for me, looking back at it, it would have been more like my dad treating me as more as an adult and saying, I should have explained to him, look, you've got options in life. You you don't want to. Turn one off at this stage when you're fifteen years old. Seth Stoker: Yeah. One thing that I've noticed with with kids in general and and especially obviously with my kids because that's the bulk of my experience is they are quick to forgive if you're willing to to own it. Because the same way that I don't think any of our kids as much as they would love for us to be perfect, and as much as we'd love to be perfect, I don't think they're in under any illusion that we're perfect either. And so being able to go back and say, Hey, I wish I would have handled that better. I'm I I'm sorry, and and showing them Showing them an example of of how to own your mistakes and things like that. I I I think they can learn a lot from that as well. And kind of in my experience, because I haven't batted a thousand, just like nobody else has, that's been a that's been a great tool for me as a dad to just just say, hey, I made a mistake and I was wrong. And I I think I've seen that in my kids that they're more willing to apologize and and own mistakes because I've been able to try and model what that could look like for them. And that's gone a long way. on on the note of of lying, I do think the honesty is is such a critical thing to instill in your kids. And so I I totally see why you flew off the handle when when you felt like he had lied to you. I guess one thing that I feel like was important for us is to let our kids know that they would always be i if they told the truth and they were honest with us, they would be in a lot less trouble than if they lied. And so I I don't know, were were there those types of things that that you tried to go over with with your kids as you instilled values with them? Dave Cameron: I don't think so. I I think it was just more the do by example type of thing and so that's one of the reasons I consider it a mistake or what have you. I mean we talked to him about it but we didn't come back to it. And he wasn't Boy Scouts at the time and they stressed it or what have you. y you know, also for me, and I don't know if it's the same way for you, given that I've had the high income jobs, my wife's more had the hourly, you know, type of stuff, is she was more likely to sit down and instill that kind of stuff with them than I was. Seth Stoker: Okay, got you. Well, as you decided to be as you decided to have children and things like that and prepared for being a dad, were there certain values that you had in mind that I want to make sure that that they grow up with these particular things as as key components of their lives? Dave Cameron: Yeah, I mean one was work ethic versus entitlement. I mean, I I recognize I have to be careful here because there are also like political overtones to this, but I don't mean it in that sense. It's it's more of a you know, I grew up in a community and my wife did too, where nobody cared what you did for a living as long as you had a really strong work ethic. I mean, unless you were selling drugs, right? You know, type of thing. But and and that's how we wanted to Seth Stoker: Sure. Dave Cameron: treat our kids. And so when COVID hit and my daughter lost her job I you know in New Zealand solely because of COVID, you know, and she came back and said she didn't want to leech off her parents. She got a job at a local paint factory stacking I don't know warehouse stuff and I I don't even know totally what she was doing. But it would be easier for her to sit back and say, I'm gonna try to stay in my field. I'm gonna focus on that. She couldn't find anything she's and she said, okay. By that time she he was 23 or 24 actually she just turned 24. And she had said, I I don't want to leech off my parents. I'm gonna find something. And it's like a real grunt job at a factory for a woman that's a hundred and thirty pounds that's lifting heavy stuff and all that kind of stuff. But she did it. And, you know, my son is the same way. i I I for us that was really important of saying you're responsible for your own life. nobody owes you anything. do the best you can with what you got. And, you know. sometimes you just gotta take the hand you're dealt and work with it. Seth Stoker: How do you teach that? Dave Cameron: Gradually, through truth the fact that, you recognize certain things that if I I suppose as a little kid it's it's more privileges taken away if you're not doing your share type of stuff. And as you get older, recognizing the impact on on on certain things that would happen. trying to think of a good story here. I think when my son had joined Boy Scouts, everybody had to do different things than you were. responsible for it and you were assigned it and everybody had to take everybody loved to cook. A lot of people loved to cook, but everybody had to take their time turn washing dishes. And that kind of experience for him realized that look, there's times that it's just part of the job. You know, you gotta do what you gotta do here. And if you don't do the dishes, well geez, you're gonna you're gonna camp out, you're gonna get bugs climbing in there and it's gonna be worse the next morning and people are going to be all over your case. You're gonna lose, you know, respect and all that kind of stuff. So recognizing that I realized I didn't have to do anything. He'd learn through that. Seth Stoker: One thing that I would like to have back as a dad as I as I tried to instill work ethic in my kids. And and I I I my kids work hard, so I I don't want to insinuate that they don't, but one thing that I learned is it was always more effective to work with them than to say, go clean your room or or go, you know, go do this chore. If if we're w working together to clean the kitchen, for example, and and we're working alongside them, they're always more willing to buy in and and and do the work than if you just kind of send them off to do their own thing. And I you get things done a lot quicker by yourself sometimes. And I wish I I had slowed down at times and worked with them and allowed them to work with me because I think I think that has a huge impact on their desire to actually do a good job is you're right there with them. Dave Cameron: Yeah, that's a great point. Seth Stoker: So your kids are your kids are grown now. You you've got adult children. What what do you feel like your role is now that they're grown and out of the house and they have their own careers and things like that. What's your role as a father? Dave Cameron: just to listen to them for things, you know, still do stuff together. my son, when he got his first apartment couple of years ago, we we went over and we, you know, he says, Hey, come on over, I'll make you guys dinner, we'll play a game, all that kind of stuff. But sometimes he'll reach out. So so it with part of my son's role, there's a big physical component to it. the what he's doing now is is like a renaissance jousting type of role. And you need to be control the horse, you need to be fit and all that, you need to be able to run. And he I I was a runner in high school. I did track and cross country and stuff, and he did too. But he asked my advice. He says, Okay, now that I'm not on a team, I need to get good enough in shape, I need to be able to do stuff. You know, you were I was doing it for health reasons when he was young and and also just to for you know, I I did enjoy like racing and stuff like that in my age group. And so he started asking my opinion as doing it as an adult, because even though he was twenty four years old, it was a big difference between seventeen and having a team around you and saying, I gotta motivate myself, go out and do this. I gotta be kind of scientific about it. And saying, okay, great. let let's talk about that. Seth Stoker: So as as an analytical guy like yourself, how do you measure success as a father? Dave Cameron: I would say b the self reliance, the work ethic, and also, you know, success in taking the hand you're dealt and being able to make a living with it. I mean, you and I know we've been around long enough to say, yeah, things don't always work. You could do your best and something happens, you know. I I've been for the last nine years, I've been teaching and I r running my own business as a consultant. Well, I had one client that, you know, their biggest vertical was cruise lines, and then COVID hit. I was making ten thousand a month off this client, it went away just like that. Not because I wasn't doing good work, not because they didn't want me, but because they just lost twenty five percent of their business and nothing you could do about it. You just have to take the hand that you're dealt, go out for a good stiff drink and come back and start over again. And if my kids recognize that, they're gonna be a lot more successful in life. They won't need counseling, they'll figure, okay, it's time to bounce back and that kind of thing. Seth Stoker: You know what's interesting? What what I'm hearing from you, I I've heard you say it a couple of times now, is just deal with the hand that you're dealt. You can't control your circumstances all the time and things like that. And and and and to me, that that exemplifies resilience. And it reminds me of a story that that Molly Fletcher, I believe, I believe it's Molly Fletcher, she was Tiger Woods' agent a long time ago. And and she had lunch with his swing coach, if if I'm remembering the story correctly. And she asked him, she said, Look, you've coached all these different Professional golfers. They all can hit the same shots. Like if everybody can, everybody on the tour can hit a 325, 350-yard drive, whatever, they can hit the fairway, they can they can sink putts. So what is it that separates somebody like Tiger Woods, the the best of the best? not anymore, I guess, but the best of the best as opposed to just an average golfer. And it's interesting the response that he said the difference between great and average is the way they respond to adversity. Meaning when Tiger Woods hits one bad shot, at least back in the day, when he hit one bad shot, it was one bad shot. One bad shot didn't become two bad shots and then three bad shots. He was able to bounce back, shake it off, and roll with the hand that he's dealt. And I think that's so important for us to be able to teach to our kids. And I I don't know the perfect answer of how to do it. I think just going through challenges and and letting them experience experience challenges, not removing every obstacle for them, but actually letting them go through some pain and things like that so that they can learn to bounce back and learn that that's not the end of the world. I think anyway, I think I think as parents, we've got to be super, super diligent and intentional in teaching our kids to be resilient. Any thoughts on how to do that as a dad? Dave Cameron: I think what you just hit on is letting them make the mistakes and learn from it. one thing that people knew in the neighborhood where I was growing up, you again, it was Ford Motor Company territory. The Ford current Ford Motor Company, which is 123 years old now, which is amazing that a company can do that well. y you it's it was Henry Ford's third or fourth company. but he would learn from each one. And he started it when he was forty. And it wasn't that, I just decided to become an entrepreneur at age 40, I'm Henry Ford. It was like, no, he decided at 28 that he'd start a company and things would change and he'd learn from it and so on and so forth. But you know, he would go back, he would blow off steam, whatever, and then he'd come back and start again and say, okay, recognizing here's what went wrong enabled him to become you know, head of a company and build it to be at the time he was last running it, the biggest auto company in the world. General Motors didn't pass him until around the time, Henry Ford retired. if he hadn't failed the first few times, it would have never gotten that big. It probably would have succeed succeeded, but it wouldn't have become that big. So it's like your Tiger Woods thing. Ford Motor Company at the time was the most respected auto company in the world. you he had Done things like, I'm gonna go into racing. Well, there wasn't a big market for racing cars, you know, type. It was originally. It was when the Indy five hundred started and all that kind of stuff, but it didn't take off and he recognized, nah, I need a car for the masses. If I'm gonna succeed, I can't just have this specialty thing. Seth Stoker: That's why I love sports as a teacher so much because the goal is to learn to win, right? Everybody wants to win. It's high competition, but the consequence is that you also learn how to lose. And I think that's so important for kids to go through loss, go through struggles and be able to bounce back and things like that. And I I think sports is a a a great or competition in general is a great teacher of resilience. So let's let's fast forward. I I I love asking this question. you're 50 years down the road. And you're you're no longer around. Yeah, and your kids are asked to describe your legacy as a father. What do you hope they say? Dave Cameron: that's the one I haven't really thought of. I I think it goes back to the thing with my dad in high school is that, you know, respected them, treated him as an equal human being when they were ten, fifteen years old, even though they were still a dependent under you, to be honest. Seth Stoker: Well well well Dave, I sure appreciate all your insight as a father, as a leader, and and it's been really cool to to learn from you. Any any parting wisdom for any young fathers out there getting ready to start this journey? Dave Cameron: yeah, I guess as a closing comment, it's goes back to the strengths of of recognizing what they're good at and encouraging it. But also one thing I didn't say is ensuring they realize it's not an obsession. They still need a sense of humility. You know, you talked about winning and losing. Okay. I don't know who the best baseball player is right now, but You know, hitters like somebody like Otani, I mean, say he bats three thirty. Okay, you fail two thirds of the time. You know, or or if you're Tarek Skuck of the Tigers and you're pitching, I mean the guy's won the last two Cy Young Awards, I think. Except, you know, he still loses a quarter of his games, right? It's gonna happen. You and that keeps you recognizing your not infallible sense of humility. The people that I've seen fail the most in life are the ones that can't admit they could be wrong. I worked with a guy who I mean when I was doing as a consultant, he was a client of mine and he'd been very successful. He'd run a a successful hedge fund, he'd start a business that had done very well. And he was less likely to listen to me and my experience than somebody who'd failed because he'd never failed before. And I'm like, well you brought me in as a predictive analyst and this is my specialty. But he still felt that he knew things better than I did, even though it was my field and I made a living off of it. And guess what happened? My predictions were right and his were wrong. And the business fell noticeably in terms of revenue. And it wouldn't have happened if he'd had the humility to say, this isn't my field. I know a lot more about the business I'm in than this guy does, but he knows a lot more about analytics than I should build his analytics in. And so I I want to stress that. You need to understand your own strengths, but also need to understand if somebody's stronger in an area than you are, listen to their expertise in that area. And my last thing is a very successful president, in my opinion, was Dwight Eisenhower. And since he's before all our time, when he came out of World War Two, you know, he was a what he was he, Supreme Commander of the Allied forces, then he became president. He took foreign policy, he took the military stuff, he'd he made decisions. But when it came to domestic policy, he's like I don't understand it as well as my head of commerce or when it came to, you know, housing. I yeah, I don't understand that either. I lived in barracks. He would recognize that at the end of the day it was his decision, but he would take counsel from the people who their this was their strengths, this is where they succeeded. And he had the humility, even though he was like the most successful military guy of his time, to say, Yeah, but that's not my area of expertise, it's theirs. I'm humble enough to know they're better at it than I am. So is a i for your kids, when they learn their strengths and they go into their field, recognize, all right, my son's an actor. But if somebody wants to understand how it gets sold and how to direct it and stuff like that, he should listen because that's not his strengths. Seth Stoker: I appreciate the call out. I think it's so important as a parent to exemplify humility and to teach it in your kids and help them understand that they're not the center of the universe and they're also not the greatest thing in the universe either. and by by learning that you learn how to actually compliment other people. Understand what your strengths are and recognize that other people can add really big value to you as well. So Dave, thanks so much. Really appreciate your insight and thanks for joining the Dadical Podcast. Dave Cameron: All right, appreciate it. Seth Stoker: That's it for this week's episode. Thanks for listening. And a big thanks to Dave Cameron for his time sharing his insights and letting us learn from him. Big thing that sticks with me is the same as being a leader professionally, being a dad is very similar in the sense that you've got to understand and recognize your kids' strengths, weaknesses. And in order to truly do that, you've got to be present. Once you understand their strengths, you help them lean into those strengths and develop them rather than just focusing on what needs to be fixed. Super grateful to Dave for sharing those insights. Remember, if you know a dad with a story worth sharing, I would love to talk to them. So make sure you go to daddycopodcast.com and submit the contact form to let me know who I should talk to next. As always, you can follow Dadical Podcast on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and wherever else you might find yourself on socials. Be sure to like and subscribe. Give us a rating and review so other dads who like these conversations can find the podcast as well. And as always, don't sleepwalk through fatherhood. Be daddy.