Latest / Cait & Court's Cozy Corner: Romance Readers / Let's Talk About: The Poison Daughter with the author Sheila Masterson

Transcript

Let's Talk About: The Poison Daughter with the author Sheila Masterson · Cait & Court's Cozy Corner: Romance Readers

• Cait: Hi. Court: Hi. Cait: Welcome back to season two of Cait and Court's Cozy Corner: Court: Romance Readers. Cait: Where we only talk about books that we love. And we're bringing you all of our favorite romance and romantasy reads because Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: our motto is Court: When people say that you don't need spice to make a book good, well you don't need running shoes to run, but it helps. Caitlin Stryker: And you know the drill, like and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcasts. Cait: Hi. Welcome back. And without further ado, you can see her on the screen. We have a special guest today. Sheila Masterson. Sheila: Hi. Hello, it's nice to see you. Cait: It's so nice to have you on with us. Today we are talking about Sheila's book, The Poison Daughter. Court: Yes, it's finally out. Cait: So amazing. Court: It's gone from indie published to traditional published. So now it's available in Sheila: Yes. Court: bookstores everywhere. 'Cause it released like a year ago, correct? Sheila: October 3rd of 2025, so a little less than a year ago, which is crazy. I can't believe how much has happened in a year. Court: Big year for you. It's been like... Sheila: Yes, for sure. Yeah. Court: And I've heard about this book since you released it, Sheila. And we'll go and let you give a little synopsis on it. But this book came out last October and I heard about it on the booktok and everyone's ranting about it. And then I heard a quick thing like, it's getting traditionally published. It's gonna be out next summer, which is when we started like, okay, let's try to talk to Sheila Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: for when her book's coming out next summer, because it's gonna be huge Sheila: Yeah. Court: and such a good book. So why don't you tell everyone what your book is about? Sheila: The Poison Daughter is a standalone enemies to lovers romantasy. And it is about a female vigilante with a poison kiss who uses that magic to lure unsuspecting abusive men to their death until one night she kisses a man and he doesn't die. And he turns out to be her new betrothed. So chaos ensues. And it is just- it's definitely the kind of book where if you feel like you're in the middle of like 20 series, no judgment, no judgment, this is a judgment free zone. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Sheila: But I really wrote it to feel- to have the same feeling as like sinking into like a really rich, like series kind of world where, where there's a good amount of world development and a lot of character development, and you get that same feeling of getting to know the characters, but all in one book. And it is a long book, but it, it does move. So that's really- Court: It does, yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: That's what I really was trying to do with this book. And you, you definitely have your enemies to lovers kind of stuff. But you also have a really strong sister relationship, you have really complex family dynamics, and there's also chronic pain representation with our FMC Harlow, who suffers from migraines. So... It's very- This book is very near and dear to my heart. Not that I write, not that I put out anything that doesn't feel like very personal to me, but this one in particular was like a big one for me. So... It's really exciting to see it doing so well. Yeah. Cait: Oh, it's so good. Court: You did what you just described. Like literally what you said you wanted, I was shocked. I, I made sure I knew nothing about it before I read it. And I was gonna read it last January, February, and then something came up. And then when we heard we were gonna get to talk to you this summer, because it was being traditionally published, I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna wait. And I knew nothing going into it other than the name and cover and that everyone loved this book. And it was such a fun ride. And you're right, you built this world that feels like you're reading a series. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: But it was so satisfying and done in one book. And the richness, the way you use color in this book, like it, Cait: Yeah. Court: it's from the cover, like just the purples on the cover. Like that's what this whole book is like. I feel like it's this gorgeous, like jewel-toned story throughout the whole Cait: Yes. Court: thing and consistency, and consistently, which is hard to do in one book, but you really built this world so clearly and vividly for the reader. It's amazing actually. So congratulations to you on that. It's so Cait: Yeah. Court: good. Sheila: It's so funny It's so funny to me too, because I feel like for years, one of the things I've struggled with is like describing like the room. Like Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: a lot of writers, my first drafts can sometimes be, it'll be like one scene is like super vivid, and then like the next scene, it's like they're in a white room. I've described nothing. Cait: Yeah. Court: Ha Sheila: Nothing in this space. And I'm like, oh yeah. So... Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Sheila: So I think like I've, it's definitely something I've worked on and it's nice to feel like it's paying off. Not everything- not every writing skill feels like that. Like sometimes you're like, Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: oh yeah, I've done this many books and I still suck at this thing. So... Court: But Sheila: Humbling. Cait: I love hearing you say that. I've done so many books, I still suck at this thing because I think Court: Yeah. Cait: there's something to be said for like, but you keep, you keep going, you know, in spite Sheila: Yeah. Cait: of the face of being like, am I getting any better or am I improving at this skill that I really want to be great at? And, and then you get to here where, like Court said, I mean, as far as the description's concerned, and filling everything in, in a Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: Yeah. Cait: one book. Like this is, this is exactly what you wanted it to be. It's very in depth. It's feels like you have the full, whole world built and you could totally see it. Sheila: Yeah. Cait: And it's one book and I love that so, so much. Thank you, Sheila. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: I'm one of, I'm one of us. Okay. Like I also am in the middle of too many series. And it Cait: Yeah. Court: Yes. Sheila: was also like as an author, I was like, oh gosh, like I really don't want to try to put together a pub schedule for like a duology or a trilogy. Like I wanna just Court: Right. Sheila: be able to like put it all into one book. So Cait: Yeah. Sheila: that was definitely like one of the things with this. And I, I had written another standalone, but it was sort of part of an interconnected... Like the first in a series of interconnected standalones. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: So it, it does stand on its Cait: that's cool. Sheila: own. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like if a small town romance, you know like how it's like the best friends Cait: Yes. Sheila: from the first book are like the main characters in the second book. It's kind of like that. But there's also kind of an overarching fantasy story payoff if you read them in order. But you can read them in any order. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Because, you know, as we all are in the midst of so many series and hanging off multiple cliffs, trying Sheila: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Seriously. Court: Yeah. Cait: to keep track of character names and all the things. I guess. Court: Remember how you got to that cliff before the next Sheila: All all All of it, exactly. I know I'm like, do I have short term Court: one. You're like, my gosh, this is too much. Sheila: memory loss? I remember nothing. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Like how? Did I even read this book? Yeah. I yeah. Cait: Hmm. Court: that- Would you hold it up? Like, that makes sense. Because Cait: Yeah. Court: I remember looking, because I read on my phone everything. And I looked, I'm like, I'm only at 25%. I'm like, huh, where's this going? Like... Sheila: That was like the funny thing about, about like talking to people and like meeting with editors and stuff. They were all like, It's how long? And I was like, Oh, thank God. Because I Cait: Yeah. Sheila: thought for sure they were gonna be like, You need to shorten it. but luckily everybody Court: No, I love it. Sheila: was like, No, the pacing was great. Yeah. Cait: The pacing is great. Court: It is. Cait: It's just it, it because it comes at you as a standalone, it's so funny, I almost messaged Court to be like, BT, like by the way, like don't leave Poison Daughter too late because it is, like it- Sheila: Yeah. Cait: Because it's, because it's in depth. Like you really build the Sheila: Yeah. Cait: world. Like I, as we are sitting here talking, like I can see Lunameade, I can see Mountain View, I can- Sheila: Yeah. Cait: I have such a clear picture of the Drained. I even have, and this is like some stuff that we're gonna start getting into talking about the plot Sheila: Yeah. Cait: and everything, but like I even have, I even have Henry's black and white vision. You know, like Sheila: Yeah, Yeah. Court: That was very clear. I was seeing it in black and white whenever he was and you described that. You're right. Now that I think about it, I literally was picturing everything. Not like the Cait: Yeah. Court: full- I don't always p- picture their full faces or but I'd see it. Like I'd see her lipstick being dark or her lips Sheila: Yeah, yeah. Cait: No. Yeah. Court: being dark or the dr- Like I Sheila: Yeah. Court: fully went there with you. You're right. While I was reading this, Cait: Yes. Court: I, it made me see Sheila: Va Court: because it was pointed out. Sheila: Yeah, and we were talking about like, like tr- challenging yourself in different ways with each book. And that was Cait: Yeah. Sheila: the thing that I did in this book that I- Well, I wrote first person present, which I, I haven't done in a like high fantasy before. Like I have a contem- Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: I've been working on a contemporary fantasy series. And in that one I did first present, which feels like it makes more sense because it is contemporary and so I'm like it, it does feel Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Right. Sheila: like it just for that genre it makes a lot more sense. But for Cait: Mm. Sheila: like high fantasy, like I've done in the past, I've mostly done third past. And so I was like, but I, because Harlow is a character who has chronic pain and is Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: also very hard to get to know, I was like, I feel like I need a really close POV for her. And Cait: Yeah. Sheila: I don't think we're gonna get the same, I don't think I can get quite the same thing from third. And I want it to feel very claustrophobic when she's in pain Cait: Mm. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: and you're like stuck in there with her. So I wanted that. Cait: Oh god it really does. Court: Yes. Sheila: Yeah. And I, I really wanted it to feel like that. And then I also, the other challenge I gave myself was Henry only seeing in black and white, which is not really a spoiler. It's like established really early on. Cait: No, yeah. Court: No, yeah. Sheila: But it is... I was like, oh yeah, this'll be like a really cool thing. And then it's one of those things where I'm like, Oh, Sheila, you bitch. When, when I wanted Cait: Ha ha ha ha ha. Sheila: to write it, 'cause I was like, it is actually really hard to t- to not put color into things when you can see in color in real life. And so you're like Court: Right. Sheila: describing Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: the room. And then I'm like, no, no, it's not red, Sheila. And like 40 times I had to go back and be like, nope, no colors, no colors. And then it's like, how do you describe this entire room in grayscale? And then I had to Cait: Right. Court: Yeah. Sheila: like take pictures of stuff and put them into grayscale. So I could try to think of how I would explain it and stuff. Like how do you explain someone blushing? How do you explain like so many different Court: Yeah. Sheila: things. And I was like, wow, Cait: Well Sheila: this is one of the most annoying things I've ever done to myself. And then Cait: And Harlow's lips are like- they change color. Court: Yes, the Matt hur 'cause it darkens. Sheila: Yes. And then, and then I had to go back and write bonus content after the fact. And I was like, and both of the bonus chapters for the U- both the US edition and the UK edition have different bonus chapters from Henry's POV. And I was like, Oh, what a stupid choice. Here we are again. Cait: Ha ha ha. Sheila: Here we are again, not seeing color. Yeah. Yeah. Cait: that is so exciting. Court: Well that's exciting. I'm so excited to find the POVs. After all this. Sheila: They have been shared, so we, we can say what they are actually. I w- I wasn't sure for a while, I was like, am I allowed to say but then they finally revealed it. So the US edition is Henry's POV of their meet cute, so when they first meet. Yeah, and the- Cait: ooh. Court: nice. In the bar? Okay. Sheila: Yeah, yeah, and the UK edition is, has a bonus chapter of Henry's POV of the marriage ritual scene, which Cait: nice. Spicy. Sheila: I Court: UK went a little spicier. UK got to go... Sheila: I was like, oh cool, I'm gonna send this to my editor. And I like sort of forgot until I like had to send the email and then I was like, ew gosh. And I was basically like, hey, Court: Mm. Sheila: I broke my record for using- Cait: Here you go. Sheila: broke my record for using the P word. Sorry. I Cait: Ha ha ha. Court: my gosh. Sheila: I was like I'm so sorry. I can't Cait: Hello! Sheila: be held responsible for Henry's thoughts. I was just in the room reporting like a journalist. Cait: Ha ha Sheila: I'm not involved. Court: And he has some dirty thoughts. He is a, a super sexy, sexy man. Oh my gosh. Oh my god, I can't wait Sheila: He is fighting for his life in that scene. He is trying so hard to hate her and it's hard. Cait: Yes. Court: to read those. That is amazing. Yeah. We should Sheila: Yeah. Cait: Wow. Court: say because like at this point, we'll probably go into some spoilers. So if Cait: Yeah. Court: you haven't read this book Sheila: Yes, yeah. Court: yet, please go read it and come back as we chat because Cait: Go read it. Court: this is a fun book to chat about and it's got everything you want in a romantasy. So go read it and come back. Cait: yeah. Sheila: And, and even if you're a person who likes spoilers, and I've told a lot of people this and even the people who like to look up spoilers have been like, I'm so glad I didn't look up spoilers for this. So I when I say you really don't Cait: I think yeah. Court: I agree. I agree. Sheila: want spoilers for this one, I, I promise you really don't. Cait: You really don't. Especially, especially like the final stuff. You know, Sheila: Yeah, yeah. Court: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cait: maybe if you had a little bit of things leading up, you'd be okay. But man, Sheila: Yeah. Cait: you really blow it for yourself on this one if you, if you spoil Sheila: Yeah. Cait: some of the final things. Court: And it does move quickly. So that's me. Like Cait: yeah. Court: normally I'm one that does look up spoilers and I thought I knew where the book was going. And I looked and I'm like, 25%. Wait, what's gonna happen? Like I, I knew, I'm like, there's gotta Sheila: Yeah. Court: be something else that I'm not even like thinking of because we're Cait: Yeah. Court: only this far in. but I'm so glad I wait, because normally I am one of those people that will look ahead and like look at things and see... because I'm just impatient. But I did not. Cait: Really? Sheila: I told everybody at the beginning, even my own team, even everybody who I know normally looks stuff up, I'm like, look, I get it, but I promise, like just trust me on this one, I would not lead you astray. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. No Court: I think it's really well marketed that way too because without going to spoilers yet, like even just Cait: Mm. Court: the name and the name is accurate, like The Cait: Yes. Sheila: Mm-hmm. Court: Poisoner's Daughter it is, but it really Sheila: Mm-hmm. Court: doesn't give you anything else about what this book is. And it's Cait: Doesn't tell you anything. Mm mm. Sheila: Yeah. Court: but in a bril- in a brilliant way, because it does pull you into the world with the artwork and the cover and the colors and Sheila: Yeah. Court: the name, but it's- you have no idea. And it's... just there. Sheila: Yeah, and that's what I was going for. I so proud I was so proud of the, the name, the title of this one 'cause I was like, it's so good. Like it's so it's good for so many reasons. Cait: You don't know where you're going. And by the end, Yeah, because by the end, you're like, it's all in the title. But yeah, Sheila: Yeah. So it's true. So true. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. And so, and you know, the other reason, because we're, we, we are about to drop into spoilers, but the other reason why I think I just like I'm really recommending this book to so many people, and you know, we're coming into like the fall season, which is my favorite anyway, but it just has all, it has my favorite fantasy elements, like with the, the vampire Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: element in there and the magic element in there. And you Sheila: Yeah, yeah. Cait: build out these two different worlds with like deep family lore and everything too, and Sheila: Yeah. Cait: side characters, and you can follow all of it along, and all the different things that happen are, as I was reading it, I was like, I love this book so much. I was like, this is everything that I want. Sheila: Yeah. It's so It was so funny because everybody was getting like so excited when I said I was doing a vampire book and I was like, oh no, no, no, no. I'm doing vampires wrong. And they're Cait: Yeah. Sheila: they're grotesque, Court: Yes. Sheila: horrifying vampires. And everybody was Cait: Yeah. Sheila: like, Oh! But then like just like a testament to the fact that like monster romance is such a thing. Everybody's like, yeah, but like, let that thing do. But not like, are you guys good? You guys need therapy. This is a judgment free zone. Court: Listen, when there was this Cait: Because Court: This is, I'm gonna say this is a slight spoiler, so pop out, get out. Quick little, it's like a dip-in. Get out, 321. But even when you Cait: This is spoilers. We're going into spoilers now because I know where Court's going with this. Yeah. Get out now. Yeah. Sheila: Ha ha ha my god. Yes. Court: got to the like advanced breeder and watching, and because of how Sheila: Yes. Court: you'd been writing, I'm like, are we gonna see like what they're getting down Cait: Yeah. Court: to? And I was like, this is Sheila: Listen, I know. Court: gonna be some super like... It didn't, but I was like, I was ready in case it did. Sheila: Everybody was like, wait, but but like what's he up to? Cait: Bye. Sheila: And then the- everyone else was like, It talks! Liter- literally, like the Cait: Ha ha ha. Sheila: number of DMs I got that they were like, cool, it talks, great. And I was like, Yeah, yeah. Cait: That was so That was so creepy when it starts to talk. So creepy. Court: Yes! Cait: But then, okay, and then Sheila: It's And Henry is like what the fuck? Court: Yeah, and that it pointed out Gaven. Cait: And then now we are full spoilers. Now we are full of Sheila: Yeah. Cait: spoilers and I'm jumping Court: Okay. Cait: ahead and we're gonna go back. But- And then when we find out about Henry. And then Sheila: Mm-hmm. Cait: when they have sex and there's fighting. Court: Ugh. Before even that, there's, there's Before even that, there's sex and their marriage ritual sex that breaks the hundred-year-old sigil before that. Cait: Yes, but once when the biting starts. that's right. Sheila: The biting. I know. Court: But the biting. The... I didn't even click till I read your note to readers about like, hey, if you had like Twilight, so you picked up this book. And I didn't even think, and of course I was a Twilight girly back in the day, but I'm like, right, he is more Cait: Duh. Court: of a traditional vampire. But I still because of Deathless and being used in the book, like I didn't even Sheila: Yeah. Court: go there, even though clearly that's what he is. But my brain Sheila: Ha ha ha ha. Cait: Yes. Court: just there's so much happening. I didn't even get that part. Plus, he's like- Sheila: Yeah. Court: Okay, take what you like about Twilight Vampires as a teen or a young Cait: Yeah. Court: adult reading it, and then make Sheila: Yes. Court: it super fucking sexier and hotter and bigger and musclier and a better guy. And then you get this book. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: He's formative. It's almost like Court: Like if you want Edward on like 10. Sheila: And it's like if a vampire wasn't Like if a vampire wasn't also Mormon, you know, like if it wasn't a Mormon vampire book, which no offense to Mormons, of course, but like it's a very different vibe. Yeah. Court: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Cait: Yeah Yeah. No, but you know very Court: No, but also Henry. You wrote Henry Cait: different vibe. Court: so well. Henry is so hot. Like, Cait: Ugh Love Love. Sheila: I love Henry. He was so fun. Yeah. Court: His- because everything about him is attractive. His like personality, Sheila: Yeah. Court: the way, the way he was with her when they first meet, their meet cute. The way he is with her Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: after, the way he is with his friends, like everything about Henry, you like took the perfect main male character that almost like contemporary romance kind of pulls to, and then you put him Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Mm-hmm. Court: in a high concept romantasy which is hard to balance and do, because he kind of is like as close to like a cinnamon bun romantasy main male character, as you could get. But he's still at the edge, like he would kill you in a second. Sheila: I so badly like want to write an Alpha and I can't do it. I, I know. Cait: Yeah Yes. Court: Like Sheila: Yeah. And that's yes. Yes. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. Court: it's just like he did kill that one guy. He like he slit that guy's throat. So.. But yet you still feel like he's that like good guy. Cait: In a second. True. Court: It's crazy. Sheila: I so badly like want to write an Alpha and I can't do it. You know, he'll be like broody and grumpy, but then they Court: Yeah. Sheila: like have a heart of gold, or they're like a fuckboy, but they have a heart of gold. And like you're like, my gosh, like you're just baby. Underneath Court: Like a like Bryce. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. This Sheila: you're just baby. And, and I, I really love, I loved writing Henry because like his, if you think like we're in Harlow's head kind of for the beginning of the book. And then and Cait: Yeah, we are. Court: Yes. Sheila: then we go over to Henry. But like if you think about what his arc of the story is, like He goes out and he meets this woman who he thinks is going to give sh- he thinks that she's a spy who's going to give him information about, you Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: know, the family or whatever. And that's what he thinks he's doing when they meet, which is so fucking funny to me. That's part of why I wrote that scene. Cause I'm like, imagine how confused he is when Court: Yes, I liked when that got revealed. Sheila: he when she's like, let's go upstairs and then is like flirting with him and he's like, I thought Cait: My gosh, yes. Sheila: I thought it was like getting information, but like she's very beautiful and like I'm gonna go with it, basically. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah, 'cause he was getting married the next day too. Yeah. Sheila: Like, I mean, he is just a man. Yeah, very attracted to her. And so like he, like he has that moment. And then when he walks in the next day, he has this idea in his head of who she's going to be, and he thinks she's gonna be like this spoiled, coddled city girl, like kind of a bimbo. And he walks in and he sees this girl that he almost banged last night and he was like, I've got this in the bag. Like he's like, Cait: Yeah. Sheila: This is done, like, like it's over. And that's and you can see it in the way he's flirting with him and we're in Harlow's head in that scene and she's like, oh no, oh no, oh no. Like he's about to find out that I just tried to kill him and it's gonna start war between our families and like this is a mess. And then, and then they, they sign the contract and he finds out what her magic is and he goes from being like, I've got this in the bag to being like, She literally tried to kill me last night. Cait: No. Sheila: Like it, like imagine the moment that you find out that the, the bimbo that you thought you were marrying is actually a serial killer. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yes, and the why. Sheila: And this is like her hobby. Cait: Right? Sheila: Yeah. I was Court: That's what's so funny that you have that and you have their banter and them laughing about that. Like it's funny moment. And then at the same time you have this old man with a family that's about to die from her kiss. Like your juxtaposition of the things happening that Sheila: Yeah. Court: make it this high concept romance. But at the same time it's like you've got this levity of those two throughout the whole thing with also all this trauma. Like that's hard to do and you really weaved it in this Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Court: way that you never dive too deep, but you still feel it when you're going through the winds as well. It's... Cait: Yeah. Court: I mean, yeah, it's cr Sheila: And I think you need the humor to, to kind of, like you need the tension to keep the story going, but you also Cait: Yes. Sheila: need the humor to break that on occasion too. Like you, you Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: You do. Sheila: really can't have it be too heavy because there are a lot of- Like I, I think like I don't really think of their romance as dark. Like there are definitely some, some Court: No, it's Sheila: you know kinkier things involved, but I don't really yeah Cait: But they're so consensual that it's like just really fun. Sheila: Exactly, Court: Yeah. Sheila: exactly. He's always looking for her permission. He's very like he takes it really seriously. But he also knows her and to know her is to know she's never going to be like enthusiastically like, Yes, I wanna do this. And so he finds other Cait: Yeah. Sheila: ways to make sure that she wants to do it without her ever having to say yes, which is also like he gets it. Like and he can feel Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: what she feels too, which is the other thing that I think people forget. Like he can tell if she's in pain Cait: Yeah. Sheila: or he can tell if she's like too uncomfortable. He's picking up all this stuff off of her all the time. And Cait: Yeah. Sheila: like some of it she realizes that he's picking up like the pain because she knows he's a healer. But like the other stuff, not so much. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yeah, she forgets. Cait: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, Sheila: Yeah. Court: Yes. Cait: which is Which is wild. And I mean, it as you say that, I'm just realizing how many different reveals happen throughout the book. Like how Court: Yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: many times I was like, Court: So many times. Sheila: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: You know, which is really fun when you're like deep Sheila: Yeah. Cait: in these books and you're going along. Like we have the humor, the banter between the two of them, and the friends, which is great. Like, Sheila: Yeah. Cait: particularly his friends. Sheila: His friends are so... I had such a good time writing them and I was like and also just like two people who very quickly know how fucked he is. Like who Cait: Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: immediately are like, oh. And, and Henry the entire time is just like, No, I've got this under control and they're like, Do you? Like... Cait: No. They're like They keep being like, You're you're gonna be seeing color soon, bro. And he's like, No, I'm not Sheila: Yeah, they're like, you're gonna be seeing color tomorrow. He's like so sure. Court: Yeah. Sheila: He's very like fixed on it and they're like, nah. Cait: Yeah. Which is really fun as the reader, because as the reader, we know he's gonna be seeing color. So it's nice that we have characters. Sheila: All of the romance anybody I don't even Court: Yeah. Sheila: I don't even really think it's like a spoiler because anybody who reads romance sees that first part, hears that they're gonna fall like when you fall in love you see Court: You know what's gonna happen. Yeah. Sheila: color again and is immediately like, When is this man gonna see color? And everybody's Cait: Yeah. Sheila: like, I can't like when is it gonna happen? Like the whole book, they're Cait: Let it wait. Sheila: like waiting for it and then when it happens they're like, oh my god. Court: Okay, I have a question about this that I was trying Sheila: Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: to figure out. And you will be the one person that would have the answer. Sheila: Yeah. Cait: Ha ha. Court: So Cait and I don't have to debate it, because you know. So in the woods with the Claiming, which is an extremely hot, hot scene. So hot. Hours Sheila: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. So hot. Mm-hmm. Sheila: Yeah. Court: of just sex and biting and orgasms and like amazing. And people watching. She had a great time. Sheila: She had a great time. Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Then when he's like, but then he's saying to her, like, maybe I'll let them keep using her to do that, but tonight it's just me. Sheila: Mm-hmm. Court: Was he saying it because he was continuing that storytelling for her, but it's still like all them? Because that's where I'm like, I feel like he's now that possessive claiming and husband, like, that's my wife guy, that I want him to be at that moment. Like, was he just saying it to get her hotter, or is he actually, is that a part of it? Okay, thank you. I would have been upset if it went the other way. I was like, no, we're here now. This is Sheila: No, to get her hotter because because also because also earlier when they're Well, no, no, no. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: And I think like in, I think he would have a very hard time with it, but I also think that if, if it was what she wanted, Court: If she wanted it, yes. Sheila: he would do it. Like and but he would also be probably like a little cranky afterward, like a little more. Court: Yes. Yeah, that well that's Cait: Yeah. Court: That's what I kept feeling about him. So when, when they said it, I'm like, this Sheila: Pisce of afterward, yeah. Yeah. Court: seems off and I'm like, oh wait, he's just retelling literally what the guy said in Sheila: Yeah, because Court: the story. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: because Because when he first meets her and, and I always think about, I think about consent a lot in like whenever I'm writing and, and I've, I've thought about it so much in all of my series and one of the things is how does the character who has more knowledge so Harlow is not a virgin, like she's she's had multiple partners, she yeah Yeah Court: Which I love also too, that that part was like taken off the table. It's Cait: I love how old they are and that they're, yeah, the best. Court: just like yeah. Sheila: and I, I, I didn't even really want that to be a thing. And I, one of the things that I love about writing a character like her who is older, who has a poison kiss, is that she's had a lot of experience with physical intimacy but not emotional intimacy. Court: Mm. Sheila: And kissing, if you've never kissed anyone, like she's essentially having her first kiss at 30. Like it's the first time she's ever made out with someone is this guy. And like everyone else has died immediately. And then she's sort of having this moment where she's like, I thought I- like I thought kissing was just like novel because I couldn't do it, but like now I understand why everyone likes it, like basically. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: And so she's had all of this like physical intimacy, but not like this more like emotional intimacy. And kissing is like very intimate. If you, if you've not done it and then suddenly you're just like doing it with someone, especially someone you've like just met, like that's very intimate. And, Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: and like there's no distance there, you know, you're just like right there. And so I thought a lot about like, for someone who is more experienced, you know, they both have had multiple partners, they both know what they like, but she was way less aware of their customs, of like what exactly the marriage ritual was going to be like. And so when she first gets there and she's like poking around the library, trying to figure stuff out, and he catches her and she's all like annoyed because she like wants to go in knowing stuff, not like have him Cait: No, no, no, no. Sheila: tell her anything. She just wants to like know it all. And, and then he is very like practically explaining to her what's going to happen. And he's teasing her a little bit. Like in the moment, like Cait: Yeah. Sheila: they're sort of like jabbing Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: at each other. But he is literally telling her everything that's going to happen. He's telling her that she can decide what she wears and what level of nudity she's comfortable with and like all of that stuff. And then he, you know, he says, well like what do you like? And then she's like, well let me just show you because she's trying to get a rise out of him. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: And then, I mean that's the f- that's the first sign right there that she like does, maybe has a thing for being watched. And then she does Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: it again in the safe room. And then the actual like marriage ritual, he's like, Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: like she like taunts him or whatever about like the nudity. And he's like, oh really? Like, oh okay. Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: So I think like he picked up on a lot of that earlier on. And he would say that she likes attention. And then the Shane scene, like there's, there's several different times where Court: Yeah. Sheila: she certainly does not Cait: Several. Sheila: mind being watched and the reminder that people are watching, you know, and like Cait: Yeah. The The hunt scene with Shane. Yeah. Yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Court: Yeah, yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Cait: I love what you said about kissing being intimate. And what I think is interesting about that is so like obviously I'm obsessed with the movie Pretty Woman. And I always remember when Sheila: Yes, I'll be saying. Cait: she was like, just no kissing, no kissing on the mouth, you know? And I remember Sheila: No kissing, exactly. Yes. Cait: kind of being like, come on, like, what is that? Like, how is that the barrier? You know? And then I'm Sheila: Yeah. Cait: reading this book, and you wrote it so well, and as I was reading this, I was like, Wow, she's really right. Like kissing really is maybe the most intimate part of like, you know, of sex and lovemaking. Like there's such a... No. Sheila: It's so true. And and we don't we don't think about it because if you If you can kiss people when you're younger and you've had your first kiss at like, you know, 14 or 15 or 16, like whatever Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: it is, that's like the first thing you do. And it feels like, it feels like lower stakes than all of the other things because of the way Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: our culture is. At the same time, you are in someone's like close, intimate space and like Cait: Yeah. Sheila: you are picking up all kinds of signals and stuff from their body and, and all of this stuff that if you were not kissing and if you always had to remind people to not kiss Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: you, you would have a lot more distance in any sort of physical intimacy that you're doing. And that's like, you know, she talks about it with her relationship with Bea and how like it is, it's hard. It's hard to ask someone to not have physical intimacy because Court: Yeah. Sheila: like or to have that kind of physical intimacy because it is a big emotional connection. And she Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: recognizes that and also is like, I can't ever like I can't ever relax in, in this situation Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Sheila: because I'm always afraid- because other people will forget because they are like wrapped Court: Yes. Sheila: up in things. And so, Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: you know, I think like it leads to definitely an interesting dynamic because much as she hates Henry, there's like something that's so novel about the fact that she can kiss him and, and Court: Yeah. Sheila: he's literally the only person. Cait: Which is so wild. And then I love when we, when we learn why she could kiss him. I couldn't figure it out. No. Court: yeah, not what I thought, yeah, not at Sheila: Mm-hmm. Court: Not at all what I thought the reason was gonna be. That was like- It was a Cait: No Court: great reveal. Cause I was Sheila: Yeah. Court: like, why, what is it gonna be? Why can he kiss her? That was one of the first reveals of him of like, oh okay, that Sheila: Yeah. Court: he is Deathless and he's been brought back. So he, every way that he's ever been killed, he can never be killed again. And his mother keeps bringing him back. Sheila: Yeah. Court: That whole concept of it was just like, wow. Cait: So cool. Court: Yeah, it was really, really cool. Sheila: And I think it's... One of the funniest things about, about that scene and everything is that people are so much more forgiving of Henry's parents. And I'm like, let's like hold on for a second because like I know that Harlow's parents are horrible, but like Cait: It's true. They're horrible. Sheila: there are some really direct parallels between these two. I was like, they have literally, like quite literally been killing him repeatedly. And like, yeah, Cait: In like vicious ways. Court: Yeah. Sheila: and like Of course for like a good reason and because they're Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: grieving and, and whatever, but like also fucked up. Like that's fucked up. Yeah. Cait: Very yeah. Court: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. That one I can ha- handle a little more because it's like for his own good to a degree, which I guess is probably what Harlow's parents thought. But yeah. Like he has consented to it. Yeah. But it Sheila: He's allowing it too. I mean I he like he's also permitting it to go on. Yeah, yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Court: is crazy and not something I think I've read in a book before. Like I don't think I've read that version of it at all. So it totally wasn't even Sheila: Yeah. Court: in my mind of like, this is why he can do this. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Court: Which was Which was really, really cool. And I loved with Bea like how you wrote that relationship and it was there, but it wasn't a problem. But also I totally agree because I don't think I could do relationship without kissing. Like I really don't. Like even with the best sex Sheila: Yeah. Court: ever, it is an important part of intimacy of a relationship. It really is. So Sheila: Yeah. Court: that totally made sense how you put that in there. Sheila: And it's also the emotional And it's also the emotional intimacy too. Like I think, you know, Bea is one of the people that she is closest with, but I think that for as smart as Bea is and as careful as she is, Harlow is still like, it's not a good idea for her to be like too involved with anyone because to have someone that, that they know that you care about is to like have a target. And that's like, that is like her first context for anybody that she cares about. And it's very difficult for her to overcome that. And I think part of the reason that she can with Henry is because he is kind of indestructible. Like I mean, not Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: totally, Cait: Hello. Sheila: but you know, as as we learn. But, but he Cait: Yeah. Sheila: is in, in the grand scheme of partners pretty indestructible. Cait: And I think she loves that. Like I, as she goes along and is constantly trying to figure out how she's gonna kill him and she's constant- and it becomes this game and it becomes this Sheila: Romance. Yeah. Yeah. Court: Right. Cait: flirt and the fact that he, even though he is such a cinnamon bun, the fact that he is also so strong in like fighting back against her, like both Sheila: Mm-hmm. Cait: of them appreciate, the only reason I think they fall for each other is because they don't want to and they can't, you know? Sheila: Yeah. Court: Mm. Cait: And then, and it's that sort of tension for both of them that's like, oh you- and they both have the parent issue as well. And they're like, you see and understand me in a way that nobody else could, you know? Sheila: Yeah. Cait: Now let's, on the parent issue. Can we just take a moment Sheila: Yeah. Cait: to discuss the Carrenwells? Like, Oh my God. Court: my Oh my gosh. Sheila: They're very, very hateable for sure. Yeah. Court: Yes. Yeah. The father and then the mother even more so for just like ignoring it and Cait: Going along with it. Court: go like that part for some reason always makes me angrier. Sheila: my god, thank you for saying that because people people are always like, oh he's the worst. I'm like, I think she's worse. I think that she's worse. Yeah. Cait: She is, she Court: Yeah. Even Even when she confronts her, Cait: is worse. Court: she's like, Well, you were prone to hysterics. Like, what? They're literally being abused. Sheila: Yes, yeah. Because because to, to Because to give any ground is to admit like her failures on such like a large Cait: Yeah. Sheila: a large Court: Yeah. Sheila: scale. You know, like it's just Cait: But like beyond, because it's like eight kids, you know, like so it's like a deep failure of like all of them And then how Sheila: Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: damaged they all are. And the depth of the abuse and everything. And the whole... Sheila: Yeah. Cait: And the difference I think, I think the difference between Henry's parents and Harlow's is the- with the Carrenwells, it's that it was just to maintain power over Sheila: Yes. Cait: everyone Court: Yeah. Cait: else in Lunamede, you know, whereas Sheila: Yes. Mm-hmm. Cait: with Henry's parents, it was like, it was about protecting Mountain Haven and like finding a way. So the motivation Sheila: Yeah. Cait: behind Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: it being literally just power Sheila: Totally different. Cait: hungry was so much more like evil. Sheila: Yeah, completely Court: Yes. Sheila: agree. Completely agree. Cait: Which was then really enjoyable when Harlow had her vengeance moment. Sheila: I know. I was like, it's gotta be, it's gotta be a really Court: I loved it. Sheila: like, Cait: Yeah. No. Sheila: it can't be fast. And Court: Yeah. Sheila: it also, like it needs to be her because Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: I think that often in these books, like the, the love interest will like fix it. And Henry would love to, like make his day, you know, like he would love to once Cait: Yeah. I mean that was his goal. Sheila: he finds out, yeah. But he also I think in that moment, like when she says you have to leave, he doesn't want to leave, but he also is like, this is her like, this is her thing, and I trust her. I trust her to know. And I think that's the whole dynamic between them is like he wants to do it, but he, he trusts her to know what she can do and that it's important for her to do it. Of course, he doesn't know that's exactly what she's going to do, but like, you know. Cait: And I and I think as the reader we love that. No. Court: No, but there's like Sheila: He's not expecting her Court: that sense. Sheila: to do that to be honest. He's expecting like a confrontation, so Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Yeah, well, Cait: Yeah. Court: also his I'm sorry. Okay, one thing, Gaven, it heart Sheila: Yeah. Court: broke my heart that Gaven died. Sheila: Oh my god. Yes. Court: And then And then when she calls him out on it and Cait: Yes. Court: he's like, But if it makes you feel better, I didn't know it would kill him because I was gonna heal him. And I'm like, wait, what? You said you were gonna kill him. Like, your plan was to kill him. Maybe not right away, but that was your plan. Sheila: To be fair, to be fair, I mean Cait: But like ultimately. I I know. He's a little Sheila: did yeah. Cait: bit like he just he died too fast. I'm so sorry. Court: Like that's Sheila: Basically, Yeah, he's like, Oops, sorry. Cait: Here's Court: Yes. Cait: what I thought was very interesting as well. Harlow manages the whole situation, but her brother, Kellan, and him showing Court: Mm. Cait: up. And then I just love how it he keeps bringing up, even towards the end. Did you poison my soup as well? Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: This is the question that I get asked by everyone. They're like, is the soup poisoned? Everyone? I'm like, I'm never answering that question. What do you think? Cait: I think yes. I think she did. Court: She did from just Just from how she said what I could- Look, I think she was so broken at that point and blaming everyone. And then even what he revealed, if he hadn't real revealed himself as Rochelli, which he didn't yet at that point, it's still Cait: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sheila: Mm-hmm. Court: even though he tried in his own way and was broken in his own way, there's still so much that I think she could have put blame on him for. And it was there. Like Cait: Yeah. Court: if he didn't help Sheila: Boom. Court: her with her parents, it was like the backup. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: But it because Sheila: Yep. Court: Because he agreed to help her with the parents, then it wasn't going to. That's what I think. I think it was like, Sheila: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Court: that was the backup situation, depending on his next move. Sheila: And the other Yeah, and the other thing with Kellan is you know, Kellan is... doesn't have the same level of like hubris that her father has, for example. Cait: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: So I think that, I think that what he has going for him is that he does know Harlow very well. He knows what she's been up to. He, I think is a little more cautious. And also I think he's really, if you pay attention, the entire book, he's really the only one who is a little concerned about like her mental health. And we, Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yes. Sheila: we s- we see it and, and I think when you're reading the book, when you're reading earlier in the book, you're not really sure what that is. Or you're thinking... You're Cait: No. Mm-hmm. Sheila: thinking it's where, where Harlow's attention is because she's sort of like directing you. But, but if you go back and you look at Kellan, he there are certain scenes where he's sort of like he can tell that something is off and he can't Cait: The Sheila: he can't quite put his finger on what it is. And she never says anything to him about Aidia like being there or Cait: Yeah. Sheila: anything. Like she never directly talks about it. But from his perspective, if she was like really, really grieving and like really having a hard time and then suddenly was sort of like okay, and like back out there hunting again and doing all this other stuff again, and he's sort of like, Like, is she really okay? And we see it at a couple points where he's sort of checking in. And then Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: when he, he has that conversation with Henry when Harlow has the migraine. And Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Sheila: and Kellan knows what's going on in, in that scene, and he's very surprised that she's letting Henry be in there. And like, Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: there's this exchange between the two of them where Kellan's kind of like challenging him, and Henry just is sort of giving it right back, like sort of like. What are you doing? Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: You know, like I saw her back. Like, you know Cait: Yeah. Sheila: what I mean? And, Court: Yeah. Sheila: and like I think, I do think it's like an interesting dynamic because you, you can if you go back and reread, which my, my story team today just got the advanced listener copies of the audio. And so they're like, this is crazy on the reread. Like when you know all the stuff and then you're rereading it, you're like, it's all here. Like, how did I not Court: Yeah. Sheila: notice this? But, Cait: Nice. Sheila: but you really can control, like this is a thing that I learned. My first series is multi-POV and you can you like all characters are in some way an unreliable narrator. And it's not, Cait: Yes. Sheila: it's not in the same way that like a thriller is or whatever, but they are seeing the things that they want to see. They're presenting you with like their point of view. And so in my first series, The Lost God series, the first book is almost entirely in the FMC's point of view. So it's almost all CeCe. And then toward the very end of the book, We get to the two love interests. And everybody has a very specific idea of Cece's bodyguard with like this first book because Cece sees obstacle, sees brick wall, is like, Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: this is a problem. But like he like people are like, my gosh, why is he always like getting in her way? Why is he obstructing her? Like all this stuff. And I'm like, because it's literally his job to keep her safe and she is like determined to run toward danger. Like it is Cait: Yeah. Sheila: it's literally his job to protect her. So of course, like she sees him as an obstacle. He sees her as like, oh my god, will you please like calm down? Like just like Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Right. Sheila: trying to contain her a little bit. but then we also get this third point of view from this other love interest, which is like everybody's like, this is so interesting. Cause once you get into his head and you see what he's thinking versus what he puts out, and then what the other love interests, how the other love interest perceives the two of them, it's like all of a sudden. you're not just getting her point of view and like the way that she sees him and everybody gets into the second book and reads like it's one of the first chapters of Rainer's in the second book. And they're like, How dare you make me like him? They're like, I Cait: Ha ha ha. Sheila: have been so wrong. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah. Because that's Cait: Yeah. Sheila: what happens. Like it's not you're not really lying. It's just people, people have their fixed ideas about how relationships Cait: Yes. Sheila: are, especially older relationships or or, or friendships that they've had for a really long time, you get kind of into this fixed place. And so there were a lot of things in this book that I used like Harlow's certainty about how the world works Court: Mm. Sheila: or Henry's certainty about who she is and who her family is to, to really like point the reader at one thing instead of like whatever else was in that scene that was relevant. So Cait: And I love that. And Court: Yeah. Cait: this plays into a question that I have as well. There are so many secrets. Sheila: Uh-huh. Cait: Everyone has so many secrets. Like with each of their point of views, and even things that as the reader, it feels like with everybody having so many secrets in this book, and they're constantly coming out with these surprises, Sheila: Yeah. Cait: it's like, Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: A, how did you, as the writer, keep track of all of them? Because they were very key. that they didn't get revealed at the wrong time. Sheila: Thank you. Court: Yeah. Cait: And B, you know, which I think you already answered is just how much so that as the reader, I was like, who's telling the truth here at any Court: Yeah. Cait: given moment? Sheila: Yeah, and that's how I wanted it to feel is like, like you genuinely don't know who to trust. And in some Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: ways, like in some ways Harlow is a like an extremely reliable narrator in that she's so like direct and in other ways she's Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: not because she sort of has this very big blind spot. Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: But everything else she's like on about. So... Cait: Yeah. Sheila: So honestly, I, I have to I think what I did was I'm not a super plotter. I usually know like the broadest strokes of a story and every draft I say is sort of like an exercise in trust between me and my and my brain because Cait: Yeah. Sheila: the, the type of of thinker I am. And I took this course with Becca Syme, who's a writing coach, and she talks about writing style and personality and ever- and like she talks about Enneagram and Myers Briggs and CliftonStrengths. And everybody who has the same top strength as me in CliftonStrengths, all of them are like not plotters. They have to sort of like Cait: State. Sheila: it's like they have the whole story at once and you're kind of unraveling a bottle- a ball of yarn. And so Cait: Yeah. Sheila: like sometimes you hit a snag and you're like, ooh, what do I need to do here? So usually I have like the very broad strokes of the story, and I don't quite know how things fit together. So sometimes I'll put something in earlier and I'm like, I don't know what I need that character for. And then later I get to a scene and I'm like, that's why I put that character in. That makes sense. So then I then I have like a way to go back. But it's always like trusting my brain where I'm like, what are we doing right now? And Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: there were several times when I was working on this book and I t- I, I talk things through. I'm a verbal processor when it comes to story stuff, and I'll talk things through with I've two very close critique partners and one is a thriller writer, which- super helpful person to have in your corner. Yeah. Cait: Very dead. Yes. Sheila: And the other is a romance author. So Tanya Grant, who has a thriller with Berkeley called Made You Look and Liz Leiby, who is Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: an indie romance author. Her latest book is called Last Resort. And so I will talk to the two of them and sort of be like, okay, well, I have this thing and I'm sort of stuck on how to do this next part. And one thing that Tanya has said, she's so good at like asking questions. And Cait: Hmm. Sheila: with most of my books, I will tell Liz likes spoilers, so I'll usually tell, Liz kind of like most of the story. I did not tell her the biggest twist in this one. I didn't tell her that part, but I did, I did tell her everything else. And Cait: You can't. Yeah. Sheila: and with Tanya, I usually don't tell her anything. So she was talking me through it and I was like, okay, I'm like stuck on this one part with Henry's motivation. And this is what I have. So I'm trying to vaguely tell her about things without actually telling her anything. And it's really hard. And then she would ask a question and I answer. And she's there's, she's like, no matter how many questions I ask, you can always answer them. She's like, which is the funny part because she's like, it's almost like you have too m- too much information in your brain. And I need to Cait: Mm. Sheila: ask the question for you to know what's most relevant next. So some of it is I think just doing it piece by piece. the rest of it is I did have to go through I, I always have a lot of editing in my work because I'm Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: I'm like a discovery writer. So usually the first draft is like me telling myself the story and sometimes I'll realize stuff as I'm going. Usually when I send the book to Liz and Tanya, I, I can write down what I think their feedback is going to be and I'm like pretty good Cait: Yeah. Sheila: at it at this point. They'll come up with like a couple of smaller things, but like in terms Court: Yeah. Sheila: of broad strokes, I usually know what they're gonna say. And so, so I think that one thing that I did when I was editing this one was I was like, Okay, who knows what when? And you have to like kind of go through Cait: Ha ha. Sheila: chapter by chapter Court: Yeah. Sheila: and say like, Okay, this person knows, but the but everyone else doesn't know that they know, which Cait: Yeah. Sheila: is Kellan for a lot of the book. Like, I mean Kellan knows a lot. Cait: And nobody knows that he knows as much as he knows. Yeah. Sheila: Mm-hmm. Court: Yeah. And same with Gaven. Sheila: And, and that's the thing. I think at the very end when, when they have that conversation and she's still like really mad at him, and he's like, I had one chance. Like, I had one Court: Yeah. Sheila: chance ever. Like our mother said to me, like the second that he suspects that you're not on his side, like you're done. Like you're only Cait: Yeah. Sheila: as valuable to him as long as he thinks he can control you. And so that's Cait: Yeah. Sheila: why Kellan has a family that he really cares about. That's why Kellan cares about Aidia and Harlow and like is more involved with them and stuff. And we do see him try to advocate in different ways and to put up enough resistance for it to be believable, but not so much that his father would think that he was actually gonna come up against him. Like to always be the practical one, you know, and, and to always be like making pragmatic choices so that they never suspect him. But Like he's playing a very long game because he needs Cait: Yeah. Sheila: a lot of resources and a lot of allies to feel like this is something that he can pull off because Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: Harrick is entrenched. I mean, he is in there, he's everywhere. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: And then you also have Rafe, who is like Court: Rafe. Sheila: creating this like secondary chaos and I Court: Somehow he was worse to me. I, I don't know why Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Sheila: I think it's that he's gleeful. Yeah, it's like gleefully Cait: Yeah. Sheila: like that. Where like with Harrick it's sort of like this is a result of something else. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Like a madness. Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: And like he's not well, and that doesn't excuse it, but like he's not like excited about it, you know? And where Cait: Yeah. Sheila: like Rafe is like almost like gloating in the very first scene. Yeah. And it's Court: He's like a true villain, like from the Cait: Yeah. Sheila: and, and he's that guy. Like he is the exact guy that would abuse that kind of magic, that would like. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: like take pleasure in having that kind of manipulation magic. And I think that that thing that she says in the first, in the first scene, like when she's sitting across from him at the table, was like one of my like breakthrough moments in writing Harlow, because there's always like a line that comes up somewhere early in drafting where I'm like, yeah, that's like the character. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: I love that. Sheila: and for her, it's I cannot make him sorry, but I can make him suffer. And she it's like her Court: Yes. Sheila: like sitting across the table and like fantasizing about murdering him, as one does. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: And, and like just kind of having that thing where she's like, I can't do this right now, but like I'm, I'm gonna make him, I'm gonna make him suffer, that's for sure. Like I might not Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: ever be able to get him to actually feel sorry because I think he's just the worst human on the planet. But, Cait: He is, yeah. Sheila: but I can make him suffer and that's that'll have to be enough, basically. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah, I love that. You- I agree. That was one. And then there's a line you had near the very end of the book when Henry was pulling Harlow back. And it had to do with what he would rather like be tortured by her presence than w- something her absence. Sheila: Yeah, Court: You Sheila: yeah, I can't Court: wrote it so well, Cait: yeah. Court: and it's escaping my brain right now, but it was such a good line. It's like burned in there, and I loved it. can Sheila: think it's I think it's on the back of the of the UK edition, I think. Court: It's just such a good line and it just explained it so well for the two of them. And I, I loved it. Yes, Sheila: Yeah. Romance. Court: that and it, it gave that moment. Okay, but I am curious, what do you think is the biggest reveal in this book for both of you? Like what was your biggest my gosh moment of all of it? Sheila: Definitely, definitely, Aidia. Like, I Cait: Yeah. Sheila: that was the one where I was like, if people find that out, I'm, I'm like if they see that spoiler, I'm always disappointed because Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: it really does change the way you look at the story. That's why everybody Cait: It y yeah. Sheila: going back and reading it now, they're like, this is crazy. Like, how did I not notice all these things? Court: Well, because off the top you have her come to the dinner table. I think the rest of it you can like see, like she's only appearing in the closet. She was kinda hidden. Like, but the very first Sheila: Yeah, yeah. Court: time we meet her, she's at the table. He ignores her and doesn't pull the chair out, but she's there. Sheila: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Yeah, but we've set up exact and that's the thing. I'm directing everyone's attention by saying her parents don't like to look at her face when it's bruised. She's wearing this Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: badge of honor to the table. Rafe is ignoring her, which feels on brand. Like all of this Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: stuff feels like it fits who Harlow has decided who everyone is. And so you don't Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: question any of it. And that's why- And even later, you know, when, when they're going down to the well together and Aidia says something to Gaven as they're like walking by or whatever. But Gaven doesn't respond. But like but she is like theoretically interacting with other people. 'Cause some people Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yes. Sheila: like, Well, she's always like in the closet and stuff. And I'm like, Well, yeah, I mean, that's that's their thing. They like sneak around, you know. Court: Yes. Yeah. Sheila: So yeah. Cait: And she's you know and you are like, you know that she's trapped by Rafe. And like that's all very believable. And I, I mean that was the biggest yeah. Sheila: And, and also that she is a illusion, like that her magic Her magic is illusion. So she could literally make herself theoretically invisible by like reflecting the light in a certain way. So which we learn from like the way that they made it look like, like it was like the fort was fallen the entire time when it wasn't. You know what I mean? So Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Sheila: yeah. Cait: Exactly. But yeah, no, that was the biggest one for me. And it really shocked me. I didn't see it coming before. Court: No. Cait: And, and it was so heartbreaking. And then it was also- then the details of what happened to her and Harlow. I mean, it was so brutal. It was so Sheila: Yeah. Cait: brutal that I was just like, woah. Wow. This is, it was, it was already deep and dark enough. And then it just I Sheila: Yeah. Cait: went to such a place where I was like, how do, how do we get out of this now? Like where... Sheila: Yeah. But you, you Cait: I kept thinking it was the husband. Yes. Court: Yeah. 'Cause it was the same timeline, six months for both of them. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Sheila: You know, all of the stuff around the ceremony at the end when and Kellan says the thing to Court: And the performance she does. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone's so moved. Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: her, like I didn't think like I thought you would want to say more, you know, and he's Cait: Yeah. Court: Yes. Sheila: he's expecting her to talk about Aidia, but like you, you there's no way of knowing that it's like subtle enough that you don't realize, but Court: Yeah. Sheila: then when you find out you're like, there's all this stuff around it. And... Cait: So much. Sheila: And from Kellen's point of view also, okay, so then he's also flagging this because he's like, how is she not saying anything? Like Cait: Yeah. Sheila: how is she like, is this a protest? Like what, like what is she doing? You know? So Cait: Yeah. Sheila: that's also why when he pulls Henry aside to tell him, because Cait: Mm. Sheila: he, he sees like he sees Henry's manipulation magic, which is like, that's also a big one. Court: Yes. Sheila: Obviously that's probably the biggest one for Harlow. Well, I mean, maybe it's still probably Cait: That's a big one too. Sheila: the biggest one for Harlow, but like everybody's like, oh my God, when she finally uses the safe word, and it's like not for any of the sex stuff. It's like for like emotional reasons. I was like, yeah, because her threshold for that is so much lower. Like, I think it's just she can't do that. Court: Yeah. Yeah. So good. Cait: that was so good. That was so good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sheila: And she was so like betrayed by that because she wants him really, like she really badly wants him to say that he's never used it on her. And like... Cait: Yeah. Sheila: And then she like doesn't trust herself either because she, like Kellan says that to thing to him, like Harlow's a hard hook. And he is Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: saying, like, it's it's hard to use that magic on her because she has really learned how to not get hooked by it. And also that is because of Rafe. Like it's also because of that whole thing. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: So it's like there's, she has really trained herself with that. And it's such, oh god, it's such like a big betrayal for her to find that out. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. And Court: Yeah. Cait: And it you, you know, knowing the rules and the rhythms of how these things go, like when the two of them got together and they were having this happy moment, I was like, there's too much book left. Goddamnit. Sheila: Mm-hmm. Everybody always knows. They're like, it's not safe. It's not safe. They're in too much of a good place. Court: Yeah, there's There's something gonna happen. Well, that and then the Cait: Yeah. But like I didn't know. Sheila: Yeah. Yeah. Court: other reveal of Kellan, like all of it together. I thought though, when Henry Sheila: No, yeah. Court: was mad, when he walked away mad with his friends after speaking to Kellan, Cait: yeah. Court: what I Sheila: Yeah. Court: thought he found out is that her plan was to leave in the tunnel. That's what I thought he was upset about. Sheila: Mm. Cait: Yeah. Same. I I thought sh- he was upset 'cause she was still gonna leave him. Yes, I did too. Court: Yes, Sheila: Yeah. Court: That's what I thought he was having a fit about until- and then when they started with the white rose and the going, I was like, okay. I started to like guess what it was gonna be. I didn't expect it to have Sheila: Yeah. Court: been so brutal and like how it happened, Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Yeah, most people figure it out Court: but I started to guess. Sheila: like right as they're like walking into the garden. They like know Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Yeah. Sheila: that something is wrong. And, and Harlow does too, because like Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Yeah, she picks it up. Sheila: we've seen this a couple of times where there have been a couple of times where she's, she's sort of been like hesitant about that part of the garden. She has the conversation at one point. Gaven says that he left roses. Like people, people like miss like huge chunks of things 'cause they're not looking for it. But Cait: Yes. Court: Yes. Sheila: but Gaven is the one who goes out and he goes to North Hold at one point. And he says something to her, I can't remember what it is. He says something to her about like leaving white roses and, and Court: Yes. Cait: Yes, that's right. Sheila: everybody's like, How did I not see this? Like Court: Well, but also that's Sheila: I, I mean it's Court: Also that's the color of rose that Kellan has Henry give her in the bar, probably to try to make her kill him mo- quicker or Sheila: Mm-hmm. Court: to make her more upset or something, because that's the rose he gives her in the bar, Sheila: Yeah. Court: which is the part I thought about after Sheila: Well and Court: I'm like, it's a white rose. Cait: Oh my gosh, I didn't even Sheila: Yeah. Cait: I did not connect that Court. Oh my gosh. Court: Yeah. Sheila: Yeah. And so Cait: Wow. Sheila: And like, she's like, you almost started a war. Why would you have me do that? And he was, and he was like, I, I've like they'd met before and he was like, I knew he was either who I thought he was or you would kill him. And it would be fine. Yeah. But to be fair, he did not Court: Well, she was actually wrong, but but but I did I did appreciate I di Cait: Yeah, it was actually wrong. Sheila: anticipate that particular twist. So yeah. He doesn't know, he doesn't know everything. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yes, but I did I did appreciate that he I did appreciate that he was trying to save her from being forced to get married again. Cait: Mm mm. Yes. Court: And even when they were meeting up in the room in the beginning, like she recognized he was a good guy. He wasn't like her normal marks, he was asking consent. Like he... Sheila: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Court: And then knowing Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: now he thought that she was just someone that was gonna give him information, you can see why he's like, are you sure- like why he was so considerate of it? Like we don't have to do more. We don't have to like, what is happening? It's so fascinating. Sheila: Yeah, he's like, what is going on? Yeah. He was so confused. He's like, I'm here for information. And she's Cait: Yeah. Sheila: like, let's go. Like this, this man is so Court: And he can't help himself. Sheila: confused. Yeah. Cait: See this is why I, I do I just that's why one of my biggest questions, I was like, you have a lot going on in this book to keep track of as the author. Okay. Court: But as part Sheila: Yeah. Court: But is part of it's coming to you, like are you writing and then like, wait, but this she's doing this, but we're not gonna tell them. Like, is that kind of like how it processes Sheila: Yeah, Court: through? Sheila: Yeah, so- and it's also sometimes like I really don't know what was going on when I was writing this book that it just kind of worked. But it was it's sort of like little by little where I'd be like, okay, like we just did this, so now... Like things kind of start to- you do all this build up, you open all these like loops and then you slowly start to close them and you Cait: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sheila: sometimes when you close them, you open up something else. And so I think the things that feel satisfying are when not everything is like a simple answer, but sometimes the answer creates like a new question. Cait: Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: So... And that's what I think is like, is like one of the things that's like so fun about, about reading when there's like a mystery, because you're like, okay, wait. So now we know this, but we still now we have this other open question because if it's not Cait: I love it. Yeah. Sheila: this person, then like could it be Bea? Like could it be... Court: I was glad it wasn't Bea. I, I was glad that there wasn't Cait: Yeah. Me too. Sheila: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: Yeah. Court: There was a lot of that part of it happening, it was just like that was there, it was fine and I loved that. Sheila: Yeah... I, I love like justifiable jealousy, but like I don't like, I don't like the competition between women. I- it's really a thing I try Court: Mm-hmm. I agree. Sheila: not to do in any of my books where even if there's like a new love interest or something for for like an ex or something like that, I try to like establish like a level of respect. Even if the jealousy is there, like it's Cait: Mm. Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: never a thing that's like I'm gonna put this other woman down because she's with this person. Like, I, I Court: Exactly. That's the difference. Sheila: don't like that. And I think like you can still feel like some type of way about like your person moving on while still like respecting another woman and like normalize that, you know? Yeah. Court: Like no one likes it. No one feels like you know I do want you to be happy. However, I want to pretend it's in a vacuum and I move on first and I'm happy and then you go do you. Like that Sheila: Yeah. Yes. Cait: Yeah Yeah. Sheila: Exactly that. Exactly that. With someone Cait: That's totally it. Yeah. Sheila: who's not quite as hot as me, but like still is good to you. Like I want you to have I want you to have good things, but not as good as me. Like... Yeah. Yes. Court: Yeah, a little less. You'll always remember that it was a nice time in your life, but like be happy. Exactly. Have the version down. Yeah. Cait: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Or at least not better, you know. Yeah. Sheila: Yes, exactly, exactly. Court: Yeah. Like I hope they're really nice and then slightly less hot. Sheila: So real, it's all Cait: Gosh. Sheila: real. Cait: It is okay. So speaking of hotness, Sheila: Yes. Cait: it ri- I really picked up on this one. The description of Harlow's fashion in this book. I mean, she is like dressed Court: Mm. Sheila: yeah. Cait: like a lingerie siren, like she is always going into prom night, like it was amazing. Court: Yes. I love it. Sheila: Truly. Yeah, yeah. When she, when she goes out and, and Henry catches her when she takes Shane upstairs in the bar and, and he tries Cait: Yeah. Sheila: something and then she like ties him to the chair and she like has to go down and wait for him to like wake up or whatever. And then she like goes to the bar and Bea's like, I don't know what you're like... I don't know what little like game you guys are playing. Court: I did not know what was gonna happen there. Cait: You're playing. Court: I had no idea what she missed. I'm like, is she about to be attacked in the courtyard? Is Bea like is something else totally going on? Is there a secret meeting? I had no idea what that was gonna be. Sheila: Listen, I, I die well, Cait: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What are you wearing? Court: Yes. Sheila: And she's like, do you like it? And he- like she is just... He's completely thrown her off because she's not expecting him to be there. And she's like, oh fuck. And, and Cait: Yeah. Sheila: she like senses like the tension in him. She's like, oh he's so mad. And then she's like, but Cait: Yeah. Court: Yes. Sheila: like, what other button can I push? Cait: Mm. Court: Which Cait: And then we get that spicy Sheila: And, and so she yeah, and she's got this, this Court: I love. Cait: scene. Sheila: dress, and he's like, if that's a dress, surely it's unfinished. Like he Cait: Ha Court: I loved that Sheila: is like looking at her and he's like, are you kidding? Walking around like that. And he's Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Well, that was why I was like, Would he share her after that? Like he just seems so possessive Sheila: Ha ha Court: of her that I was like, I don't fully buy even in this animalistic moment that he would be like- unless she really wanted it, I doubted that that would be a thing that he would do. Sheila: He'd exactly. Yeah. I know, Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Sheila: I know, because so many people have been like, well, what about Bryce? Like would, would he bring Bryce in? Court: No Sheila: Because Bryce is- Bryce is clearly a fan. Huge, huge Court: Bryce is a fan Sheila: fan. Yeah. Court: and he could be a side book like you talked about, when it's like not the same story, but like, hey, let's go follow hot Bryce and who he conquests Cait: Yeah. Court: for a book. I'm in. I will go follow that. And he can have his imagination Sheila: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Court: about it. Maybe he has a dream of the three of them in that book. Just an idea, but Cait: Ha ha ha ha Sheila: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Court: you should like Sheila: I mean, l truly just like to antagonize Henry. I mean, that's really like the only thing. Court: Exactly. Which I love. I Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: love that best friend dynamic when they point like when they do it to push their buttons and talk about it. I love that. I yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Well and also I think like that's one of the things early on where like they know that something is different. Like Bryce like says that thing, like when they first see her, and he's like he's like, Court: Yeah. Sheila: That's her? Like, oh god, poor you. Like poor Cait: Yeah. Sheila: you, you have to bang your hot wife. Like that's so, that's so terrible for Cait: she Court: Yeah, exactly. Sheila: you. Yeah. And, and he says the thing like, like that's quite a dress or whatever. And Henry says it looks like something that belongs in a brothel. And Bryce like Cait: Ha ha. Sheila: looks like something that belongs more like on my bedroom floor. And, and, and Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: Henry is like immediately like excuse me, like he's like immediately Court: Yeah. Sheila: having a moment. And Carter's like watching the two of them like what's the yeah, he's like, what's going Court: He's like, You're gonna rip his throat out right now. Take a breath. Like you're literally Cait: Yeah. Sheila: on right now? This is- there's a weird energy here. And what do you mean you care? Like you both were banging the same girl like last weekend? Like what's like what's happening here? Yeah. And Court: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Yeah, during the hunt. Right. Sheila: Henry's like, I don't think it means anything. And they're like, okay, buddy. Okay. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Ho ho Yeah. Sheila: So I think like in that scene, like we see Henry appreciate it and we also see him like pick some of her clothes. And like also him Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: picking stuff out for her that she then Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: like very begrudgingly likes. And she's like, Like she's Cait: Yeah. Sheila: like, I, I'll wear it because it's nice, you know? And she's like Cait: Yeah. Sheila: she's like but not because she told me to, but like it's also like exactly to her taste. And she's like, why does it fit? Why is it to my taste? Like it's just... Court: It's perfect. Well, everything Sheila: Yeah. Court: Everything about him, he's her perfect match. He really is. And then, Sheila: Yeah. Court: and not to go, because we I jumped us, but that scene, I have to say, you having her kill that guy in the room after Henry has her fuck herself with her fingers and turn them poison and literally like shove Sheila: Yes Court: her like Sheila: sir! Cait: my gosh. I was like Court: taste in his mouth to kill him was like, oh my god, this is amazing. Sheila: I almost cut that scene because I was like, this Cait: No. Sheila: what was I on this week? Because I, I, I have this thing that happens when I write spicy scenes where I, I I think in order for a spicy scene to be good, it's because you're, you really understand the characters and the reader really understands the characters Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: to understand why it's hot. Because like There are things- like otherwise everything is just mechanical. It's just like a physical Cait: Yeah. Sheila: thing. Court: Yes. Sheila: But to understand why a scene is hot is to understand like the psychology of these two characters who have been at each other this whole time and why like he understands certain things about her. And so I completely forgot that I wrote that scene because I think I'm so close in on the characters that to write that a scene like that, I'm so like in Harlow's head that it just sort of like, it's like I'm like not there or something. So then what happens is Cait: I got it. Sheila: I come back during edits and I'm like, I literally remember I was like reading that scene. I was like, my gosh, I forgot this was here. Cause in my brain I'm like, yeah, there's like two really big spicy scenes. Like there's the ritual and then there's like the, the claiming scene. And Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: I was like, but there's actually a bunch. And I was like, how Court: Yes. Cait: Yeah, there's a bunch a Court: There's a lot more than that. Cait: lot more. Sheila: I know. And this scene in particular, I was like, oh my God. And when I was rereading it and got to that line where he says, say my wife is beautiful, Shane. I was like, what? I must have been ovulating. Like I must have been ovulating that week. I don't know what Cait: Ha Sheila: was going on. Like that's all I can say because I was like, I genuinely like that was like an Cait: Ay. Sheila: out of body experience rereading that. Cause I was like, what on earth? Like, and Cait: my god. Sheila: it is so, he is so crazy in that scene. Court: He is. Cait: He's so crazy. Sheila: And she is like, Court: I love it. Sheila: Why do I like this? And Cait: Yeah. Sheila: why do I think this Court: Mm-hmm. Sheila: is hot? This is so messed up Cait: It was amazing. Okay, so on that note, we have a yeah, the spice Court: It was yes. We should get to our spice, yes. Sheila: It did make me laugh. Yes. Cait: we have a pumpkin spice meter. so Sheila: my gosh, yes. Court: I mean Cait: Court, where does this fall on the Court: one spicy- one pumpkin, two pumpkin, three pumpkin, sassy pumpkin, spicy pumpkin. That's our Sheila: Okay. Okay. Court: meter. and so far we have not had a spicy pumpkin. I Cait: I see. Court: I put I, I put that in like the world of like Zodiac Academy or when it's like multiple people, multiple things. I will say Sheila: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Court: your book is probably the closest to Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: is it sexy pumpkin, spicy pumpkin or spicy pumpkin, sexy? I've forgotten. Sassy! Cait: It's sassy. This is sassy. This is like Level four. This is level four. Sheila: Yeah Court: Sassy and then sexy. Yours is the closest to level five that we've done on this podcast. A hundred percent. Yes. Because like the claiming scene, the death of him, like you really Cait: Yes. Which is a compliment. Sheila: my god, yeah, I'm honored. I'm honored. Yeah. I mean, He really went for it. Yeah, he really the, the control was gone at that point. So yeah. Cait: Yeah. And she was Court: Yes. Cait: And she was like, I just want this forever. And, and Sheila: Live. Court: And just like gushing and like just the continuous Cait: you know, yeah. Sheila: Yeah. Court: and like the venom making her walk-like all of it. It was Sheila: Yeah. Cait: And like this, like Court: Very hot. Cait: Those spicy scenes like in this book, like I not that I necessarily care too much about someone reading over my shoulder, but like I do not Sheila: Yeah. Cait: want to be reading them on my commute, on the bus or the subway to Court: Yeah. Cait: work. Like I wanna Sheila: No. Cait: be Court: Yes. Cait: at home where it is like I can thoroughly enjoy. Sheila: I have a list of the worst chapters to read in public. It was like one of the Cait: Ha ha. Sheila: I, I should actually I should you just remind me that I should like put that back out again. Court: We should put that out after the drop. Cait: You shed. Sheila: They're not all the spicy scenes, but they're all scenes that will get you, you know, get things going for you one way or another. So Cait: Yeah. Sheila: you might cry or Court: Mm. Sheila: or it might be horny. We don't know. Like it's Court: Yeah. Sheila: not all for the reason that you're thinking 'cause I'm like, when I tell people not to read them in public, they always assume that I mean spicy. And then I've got so many messages from people where they're like, what the fuck? And It's like... Cait: Ha ha Sheila: They're like, they're like in their car on their lunch break and they're like, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Court: That's the theme of this summer. Yes. The timing of Cait: Yeah. Court: The timing of this book coming back out traditionally published, like it's been sad girl summer all summer long. Everything I've been reading, it's that and crying or is that like that. And this is in that same world. Like this is the perfect continuation of Sad Girl Summer because that Sheila: Yeah. Court: has been the theme this year. Cait: But we get but we're like But we're on our way out of summer and we're getting into some vengeance here. You know what I mean? Like she gets to, which is nice. Court: Yeah, we get both. We get the Yeah, We get both. This gives the spice with the tears. But you're right, there are quite a few. And I did have to read it on the bus because that's when I get so much of my reading done, because I commute Cait: Yeah. Court: each way. But there are a few that I was like Sheila: Yeah. Court: double checking. Like, I hope no one's Sheila: Yeah, you're like, these are on, right? They're not Court: looking at me right now. Like Sheila: gonna like shut off. I'm not at the gym and my headphone like my thing comes unplugged and then it's like la Yeah. Court: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like at one point I literally Cait: If you're audio booking it, my god. Court: covered. I was just like, I didn't want people seeing my face or my phone. Sheila: I, I was listening to the audiobook of Mate by or Ali Hazelwood, which I loved. Court: we did it on here, yeah. Uh-huh. Sheila: I loved. Cait: Loved. Sheila: But I was like right at a certain scene as I was pulling Court: Yeah. Sheila: into a hotel and I was sort of like, you know when you're like discombobulated because I didn't know exactly where the hotel was and I, I was pulling in and I wasn't really like intending to go to like the valet, but I, I sort of like Cait: Mm-hmm. Sheila: didn't really I didn't want to figure out parking and I was like, I'm Court: Yeah, fair. Sheila: this is gonna be a disaster. But I can't direct myself in there, not hit like the people who are walking around and pause my audiobooks. So it is like I Cait: Ha ha. Sheila: probably so loud outside of the car and they're like hearing about knots. And I was like, well... Cait: Yeah. Sheila: I am who I am of all parts of the book. Court: That Sheila: I should have paused it so much sooner. Of all the parts. Court: book like that that That scene, particularly those chapters, that's the like I need to go touch grass. Like, yeah. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Sheila: I was laughing so hard walking into that hotel and I was like, well, okay, it's fine. I'll never see that guy Court: Rapid. Sheila: again. But like interesting afternoon for him, that's for sure. Maybe he doesn't Cait: Yep. Wow. Court: Yep. Yep. He'll have something to talk about. Sheila: know what it is. Maybe he thought it was about trees or something. Who could say? Cait: That's amazing. Oh my gosh. Sheila, we could talk to you forever and ever and ever and ever, but Court: I love that. Okay. Really good. Cait: we have got to wrap this up. Thank you so much for coming on. Court: Yes, thank you. This Sheila: my gosh, thank you for having me. Court: is amazing. Cait: Thank you for writing this book, The Poison Daughter. Can't recommend it enough. It's so Court: Yes. Cait: great. It's coming out at the perfect time as well. Like it's the perfect time of year to read this book. Sheila: Yeah. Cait: and you get it all in one. All in one. You don't have to wait. Court: Yeah, it's a one go. Cait: it's the best. It's the best. And it's spicy. Sheila: Yeah, and a fabulous, Fabulous audiobook for anyone who does audio. It's in duet and it's Laura Horowitz and Anthony Palmini. Yeah, yeah. Court: I love that duet. Okay, great. Yes. Sheila: And it's just, I just, I just got the file so I just have started listening to Cait: Yeah. Sheila: it. And they're both just so phenomenal. So couldn't have asked for a better cast. The book Court: Yes. Cait: Yeah. Sheila: itself is beautiful, so like I feel, I feel very spoiled and very excited. Yeah. Cait: Yeah, rightfully so. I feel like this one too would this would be great as a good audiobook. Like you just would like really sink into watching like you'd be like, you know, Sheila: Yeah. Cait: surrounded by this incredible world that's so deep and fucked up and fun and sexy and like awesome. It would be. Court: Yeah. It'd be a bad one to pull up to the valet with as well. In certain states. Sheila: Yeah. So true, so true. Be really Court: It's a valet risky audiobook as well. Sheila: careful at the gym that your headphone jack doesn't come out. Like it's gonna be loud it's gonna be it's it's not gonna Cait: Yeah. Sheila: be the best one. Court: But it's so great. Cait: No. No. All right. Sheila: Yeah. Cait: Well, we can't recommend it enough. Sheila: Thank you so much for having me. Cait: Thank you for coming Court: Pleasure. Cait: on. The Poison Daughter by Sheila Masterson. Highly recommend you read it or audiobook it. Thanks for joining us on Cait and Court's Cozy Corner, and we'll be talking with you again soon. Bye. Court: Yeah and bye. Sheila: Bye. Caitlin Stryker: You know the drill. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast. Courtney: Thanks for tuning in to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner Romance Readers. Caitlin Stryker: Executive producers and hosts, Caitlin Stryker and Courtney Richter, Producers, Canasia Ngo and Hollie Lobosky. Original music, Cassie De Silva.