Latest / The In-Between Tech and Trust Podcast / Innovation Sovereignty: Trust, Technology, and the Future of Europe - EP07

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Innovation Sovereignty: Trust, Technology, and the Future of Europe - EP07 · The In-Between Tech and Trust Podcast

0:07
Welcome to the In Between Trust podcast, the podcast at the
0:10
intersection of tech and trust. In the latest episode, I sit
0:14
together with Sergio Peyton, who is an technology expert at the
0:18
intersection of engineering, AI and compliance.
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He's known for scaling distributed teams and navigating
0:25
complex regulatory environments, and most recently for also
0:29
entering the discussion about innovation sovereignty.
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Together, we dive into what this actually means, what it has to
0:36
do with bravery, like on the European but also on a global
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level. And we also dive into the
0:42
benefits of open source, IT as a value stream, and why relying on
0:47
American companies could mean that history repeats itself.
0:53
Welcome to the In Between Trust podcast.
0:55
Sergio, I'm really happy to have you and I would love to dive
0:59
into some questions on trust, sovereignty and your perspective
1:04
on the impact of technology with you.
1:05
Thank you for having me, a pleasure to be here.
1:08
Let's start right in because I'm super curious to know what trust
1:12
means to you, not from a systems perspective, but from your own
1:17
way of working. Trust for me is the foundation
1:20
of quality. I'm saying it's sits between you
1:25
and everyone else, that it's helping you build something in
1:30
your life, whether that it's a family life, job, platform, you
1:34
name it. It's behind every single
1:37
relationship that I'm looking. It's something it's not build
1:41
their own trust and it's doesn't.
1:44
It's not sustainable and it's not worth investing.
1:47
So it's probably the foundation pillar for everything I'm trying
1:50
to build in. And what you're like
1:52
professionally building and have been building for the past
1:54
couple of years with your teams as well are like cloud
1:58
infrastructures and platform teams overall.
2:01
And if you look into that, what does build trust between those
2:05
systems of technology, but then again, also from you and your
2:09
teams? Very good question.
2:11
I have to go back probably five years because it's hard to go
2:16
more than that. And initially in 21 when I
2:20
started my journey, my current journey with Allianz, that was
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the main thing that we discuss was how do we manage to build
2:34
culture of trust is around solid principles that had to be named
2:38
and how do we manage to maintain it?
2:41
Maintaining it, It's not as easy as it sounds.
2:44
Maybe this is the one lesson I had during in the past years,
2:48
because you need to have very hard conversation with yourself
2:52
and you have to be very honest and then you have to have this
2:55
conversation with persons that you trust.
2:58
You cannot open up with something so personal problem in
3:02
front of someone that you don't trust and degradation is
3:05
inevitable. Conflicts are everywhere,
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especially in work now. Whenever you have different
3:12
situations, you have someone not performing, someone maybe not
3:17
being perceived as honest. Sometimes all those things might
3:21
end up in destroying the main foundation that that you had and
3:25
making trust something very scarce.
3:27
And this is the time when you have to be brave enough and
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probably you still need to have enough trust in the room so that
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you have hard conversation about how to fix all the things you
3:38
have and make sure that you heal.
3:41
If you don't heal, it just waits for the degradation to happen.
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That's something we learned during the years.
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So we didn't know it from the beginning was something we had
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to practice. And I believe, looking now at
3:54
the relations I have with my my peers and my team members, I
3:58
believe we did a decent job. You mentioned.
4:01
Bravery. What does bravery mean to you
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and when were you brave the last time?
4:07
I like to think I was brave every single day.
4:09
It's so much easier to lie than to lie to yourself, to lie to
4:15
everyone else, to just go with the narrative, then to be
4:19
original and step up and really look in the mirror and try to be
4:24
as honest as you can. So I believe every morning I'm
4:26
waking up, I believe I decide to be as brave as I can and keep
4:30
the trust that at the level that I'm happy with.
4:33
One of the futures that I know that you're looking into is
4:37
about like cultural, but also like in a broader sense,
4:40
sovereignty. And sovereignty has like many
4:43
ways of being looked into but also being defined.
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So what is your personal definition of sovereignty?
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And maybe you also want to give a bit of context on how you look
4:54
onto it and why you're so passionate about the topic.
4:58
Why? It's a topic I really, I really
5:01
think a lot lately, mainly because probably is now it's the
5:06
time to talk about it. It got in the mainstream.
5:10
I was thinking and speaking about a certain flavour of
5:13
sovereignty since two years ago. Main the main reason for that
5:17
main trigger was that I realized five years ago when I build my
5:23
journey in Allianz that true what I call innovation
5:27
sovereignty. You can accomplish so many
5:30
things than actually staying as a as a consumer.
5:34
From my point of view, from my point of view, innovation,
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sovereignty is the capacity to create.
5:41
And coming from an open source culture, the CNCF and its
5:45
foundation, what I always felt like every engineer and every
5:49
professional has to make this simple choice, decide to create
5:54
something I will create to consume.
5:57
And this simple answer or this simple choice that you make
6:00
every single day a few times is going to shape who you are.
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That's on the individual level. And I saw that personally how it
6:08
can impact me and I chose personally, and again, probably
6:12
talking about bravery, I chose to create as much as I can.
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And that's what gives me pleasure.
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I like creating stuff and building and that's why I also
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have a history being entrepreneur.
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And I wanted to to take that with me on a daily basis.
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And that's how I also shaped my my career.
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I wanted to reflect the same passion to create in a larger
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environment. I became a manager and therefore
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I wanted this to be the principal behind my teams.
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So then I took this principle a little bit further on a
6:44
different dimension. And then I demanded my teams to
6:47
create as much as they can. And I found that the right way
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to do that. It's not by recreating something
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that exists by by simply continuing a long journey now
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sitting on the shoulders of of previous innovators.
7:00
And just look on how you can add on top of that.
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And open source for us in that situation was the way forward
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because it's you have basically so much wisdom and so much
7:10
validation from so many bright minds.
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And there's no reason for you to rebuild that again and again and
7:17
again. You just have to be connected to
7:19
that stream and do your part. So that was the core PC World
7:23
behind what I managed to achieve through my journey doing DevOps
7:27
and engineering. And the teams reflected that
7:30
principle. And funny enough, it became
7:33
financially sustainable. Because it's something, once you
7:37
do it right, once you build the right culture and the right team
7:41
behind it, it can get very cheap.
7:44
In the 1st place, you have an army of externals building
7:49
innovation for you. You have to just to be creative
7:52
enough to use that and ideally even a little bit more creative
7:56
to add on top of that small part.
7:58
And then everyone benefits from it.
7:59
And yes, I mean, it's also allowing you to keep up with the
8:04
accelerated innovation cycles that we have.
8:07
You had to cloud native revolution, then now you have an
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AI revolution. You know we are very much well
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equipped navigate all these revolutions as long as you have
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this curiosity and capacity to create whatever that creation
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means. And if you look into it from a
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like also organizational perspective in a more holistic
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sense be using either open source or existing
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infrastructures, do you think we can be sovereign?
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I believe, I strongly believe we can.
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This is luckily for us, this question was already answered by
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other parties, by other regions, other countries.
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I'm looking at China honestly, and I believe they can be the
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perfect laybook of how to achieve sovereignty.
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I'm not talking necessary about what they build, I'm mostly
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talking about how they build. And also looking at the starting
9:01
point. They started with so few
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capabilities and they managing a record time to achieve so much.
9:08
I believe they do have the pure digital sovereignty and now they
9:14
can go and build their own destiny, both physically but
9:18
also in whatever innovation means in the future.
9:22
I don't see that in Europe honestly, not now.
9:24
I do believe Europe, it's in a much better place than China was
9:28
20 years ago. That's what's lacking is
9:31
probably the will to do a multi year strategy and really focus
9:36
on that. We are too comfortable to do
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that, I believe, and something needs to change fast because we
9:42
are out of time if. Europe were brave.
9:45
What would they change? I don't want to say everything
9:47
that would mean I'm honest, right?
9:49
But I would like to change the time frame.
9:54
We are thinking in Europe everything has a cycle of one
9:58
year less actually because August and December nobody
10:01
works. So we have actually 10 months a
10:03
year to build something that it's measured by the KPI's of
10:08
that year and nothing else. We don't have 10 year KPI in our
10:12
strategy. Why we don't have that?
10:15
That's that's a lack of of vision from my point of view.
10:19
And if you look into like governmental responsibilities
10:24
and organizational responsibilities, who would you
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expect to shape it? It has to be from the government
10:31
point of view, it has to be if something works well, not
10:35
necessarily positively, not every single time.
10:38
It's regulation. When regulation is demanding
10:42
something normally that happens. There is already you have a
10:47
whole ecosystem of defining and enforcing and executing on
10:52
regulation. And I can tell you that the
10:54
board is really sensitive to that.
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And the boards from every single company will make the focus,
11:00
will bring the focus and the money to execute on the right
11:04
compliance and the right regulation.
11:06
So I would say that through regulation, through a very well
11:11
thought regulation, we can achieve huge change.
11:15
And this is also parallel with China.
11:17
You could say that while the Chinese government is doing
11:19
it's, it's more or less a certain kind of regulation on a
11:23
whole different level now. But they achieved the innovation
11:27
through this level of, of regulations.
11:30
I believe that's the way to to follow.
11:32
So within Europe where like a lot of different kinds of states
11:36
where like large scale companies that are within those States and
11:41
in order to achieve like collaboration or like cultural
11:44
innovation on on European level, that would mean that we have to
11:49
exchange thoughts, ideas, trust for conversations to be brave
11:54
together. What I found interesting to
11:57
witness these days is that there is not like there's no trust
12:01
into could bringing everyone together on the table and
12:05
exchange those open thoughts. Because on one hand side, we
12:09
think that the information is either used against us or it's
12:13
like maybe even not hurt. What do you think would need to
12:16
change to recreate the trust between like the European states
12:21
also on a global level to exchange and like move this
12:24
forward so that we move more and I can from an innovation
12:29
perspective into like leaps forward?
12:32
I agree. The trust, it's like the way
12:36
Europe under the narrative is being organized is not a
12:40
relation based on trust. So the question is, can you
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build anything that lasts without trust?
12:47
When we come back to, to the first question, I would say
12:49
that's very hard. If we look geopolitically in
12:52
what is happening now with the conflict in in Ukraine, you see
12:55
that Europe, it's not really one Europe.
12:58
You have several flavors of Europe.
13:01
You have the East's block, which is so much more concerned with
13:05
what Russia might be bringing as a threat to, to to their
13:09
countries. And they tend normally to get
13:12
closer to United States, for example, because what they are
13:15
lacking is protection and they don't feel that protection is
13:18
being done by the West countries in Europe.
13:22
So right now, instead of having a conflict that unites Europe, I
13:27
feel the opposite is happening. And mainly because countries,
13:31
they still have their own personal agenda and they are
13:34
conflict one and they just want to have bigger consumption
13:38
markets but nothing more above that.
13:42
So I don't know. I don't have unfortunately an
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answer here. But I believe the first thing
13:47
that needs to happen is just to look beyond narrative.
13:51
Understand exactly the root causes of the mistrust.
13:56
Address them openly, again with courage.
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Now be brave about speaking about them.
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Obviously you can't do that, maybe in public, but that needs
14:04
to happen somewhere. And then have a more honest and
14:07
trustful relation around the European countries.
14:10
You should accomplish that minimum level of trust.
14:13
It's pretty clear there is an economical interest, common of
14:18
economical interests that it's worth fighting and if you define
14:22
that well then you can start and implement 1020 years strategy
14:27
around what that means now and the consequences on sovereignty.
14:31
It would be huge. Do you think technology plays a
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role in that sense? Could it be like a connector or
14:39
is it like potentially more of a divider infrastructure in the
14:43
future? It can be both technology, it's
14:46
critical as we find out everything happens in the the
14:51
virtual space. We are talking about how dating
14:54
habits are happening in the digital space.
14:57
So we have, we have outsourced so much of our physical space in
15:01
the digital space that you cannot take away the digital
15:05
implications in in your world, in your reality.
15:09
So yes, technology is going to determine that.
15:12
One could example, it's what happened in Romania.
15:16
It's where you had presidential elections.
15:20
And basically because of what's happening in the digital space
15:24
on a platform which is controlled by different
15:27
countries with different agendas, you had a new candidate
15:31
that became the prime candidate and no one in the country, in
15:35
the actual country knew who that person is.
15:38
That's absolutely shocking. It's like you haven't seen that
15:41
guy in the news, You haven't seen them in mass media, in the
15:44
local mass media. No one knew who this guy is and
15:46
yet he was a prime president candidate.
15:50
That's a huge mixture of digital sovereignty with the national
15:55
sovereignty. You can't own one without the
15:57
other one. So and digital sovereignty is
15:59
being executed for technology. So Europe needs to have control
16:04
over the digital field because otherwise we're going to play
16:08
defensive when everyone is playing offensive.
16:11
We are building regulation that create consumers like EU AI Act.
16:16
The side effects of what EU Act is doing because we are afraid
16:19
of sharing information because we know we don't own none of the
16:23
platforms when we share the information is that we try to
16:27
educate everyone on how to consume responsibly.
16:30
If you would take all the that that money invested in this
16:34
level of educating consumers and we would build it in your
16:38
innovators, we would be able to play offensive and that's the
16:41
only way we can be relevant in the next century in this world.
16:46
And if you could choose like the next best step of where we would
16:50
need to go or where you would also look into to like not only
16:55
achieve it but also to implement it sustainably, where would you
16:59
start? I would start with open source,
17:02
you know, you know my, my affinity for open source, but I
17:07
really, I truly believe that Europe has a huge advantage on
17:11
how much open source we are both producing and consuming the
17:16
biggest foundation in the world. Now the mother of open source
17:20
applications and technology. It's called Linux Foundation
17:23
after an European, it's not called George Bush foundation.
17:26
And there's a reason for that because we have created as
17:30
Europeans, we have created so much value in open source and
17:33
that value is not being strategically used on the
17:37
European level. And open source fits very well
17:40
with the structure of Europe. We have fragmentation Europe, we
17:43
have not 26 plus countries. When you look at, you know, as
17:47
an extended version and when you want to have certain sovereignty
17:51
approach, strategy for such complex environment with so much
17:55
fragmentation. I do believe open source as an
17:59
open and transparent way of collaborating and creating
18:02
innovation is the right way to go.
18:04
It's accessible to anyone and you can't hide the the truth,
18:08
which means you rebuild trust in a certain way.
18:11
This would be one way to do it. And then Europe, if it executes
18:14
well on, on this strategy, Europe can become an exporter of
18:18
sovereignty towards the rest of the world because you have two
18:21
main powers which are sovereign and they're going to stay
18:25
sovereign for sure. And the others are struggling to
18:28
execute sovereignty by themselves.
18:29
And to have digital sovereignty or real estate sovereignty, you
18:32
need to have a certain critical mass.
18:35
So together in open they could accomplish a third version of
18:39
sovereignty which is available to everyone as.
18:42
But some of its part is larger, like it's also contributing from
18:46
a intellectual perspective, but from a like community like
18:52
aspect as well. How do you form connection or
18:56
communities on urban source in like this arrangement?
19:00
And also how could this be a way forward?
19:03
And what is your take on the counter part discussion on close
19:09
source? They all have their purpose.
19:11
Looking at open source, the main problem with the current state
19:15
of open source for Europe is that most of the critical
19:19
foundations are not driven by European companies.
19:23
They are a minority in the game and the way the communities are
19:27
working is that they create the leverage, the right leverage and
19:32
the light, the right Mac now to steer the future of the open
19:36
source projects or the future of technology.
19:38
And in order for Europe to be relevant here, they need to have
19:44
this strategic approach where you understand that open source
19:49
is the future for you. And then you create different
19:53
layers of strategical thinking about and consuming of open
19:56
source. The way right now there is a
19:58
certain mechanism in place, which I was teaching in my own
20:01
organization for for some years already without success for now
20:04
is the creation of so-called possible open?
20:07
Is it open source program office is the name.
20:10
And if you imagine something like that on a company level,
20:13
then basically every single company will be able to
20:17
strategically understand. What they consume, what is
20:20
critical for them and where to invest.
20:23
Engineers. Imagine that you could pay
20:25
external engineers, your own engineers, just to be
20:28
maintainers of an open source project.
20:31
And that's the job. There are companies, United
20:33
States, which are actively doing that.
20:35
They are investing and maintaining a certain community
20:38
of independent maintainers. In this case, hopefully they
20:40
will be Europeans and they will be affiliated to a, let's say
20:44
geopolitical and geopolitical one European organization in
20:49
Europe. So we could have an army of
20:52
European containers that follow a certain conduit now about how
20:57
they they see and they develop technology.
20:59
And it's something like this when you would have a Federated
21:02
or spore maybe made mandatory by compliance, no and regulation.
21:06
And then on top of that, you would have all of those will be
21:09
part of European large or Spore that has a strategy for the
21:15
critical infrastructure and technology which which is being
21:17
driven by open source. And then these organizations
21:21
will be strong enough to steer the future and the road map of
21:24
every single technology that is critical for Europe and is the
21:27
backbone of sovereignty of digital.
21:28
Sovereignty, I do think that this is quite relevant, but also
21:33
given the current situation that we're in, like a quite like
21:37
ambitious goal to like work towards.
21:40
And if we come back, because I do think one of the most
21:43
important aspect to make it successful is leadership.
21:47
What aspects of leadership do you think it needs now and in
21:52
the future to collaborate, to incorporate values, and to have
21:58
like, brave conversations that create trust in the end?
22:01
You have no idea how much I'm happy that you asked me this
22:04
question. I believe Europe, it's missing
22:06
and was missing the whole understanding of the value of
22:11
technology. If you look at all the boards in
22:14
Europe, if you take the first I know and 2100 companies in
22:18
Europe and you would look at the board and you would ask who has
22:22
technological competence to make technological decisions.
22:27
You would be surprised to see that there is no decision maker
22:30
capable of understanding technology.
22:32
Most likely in those those rooms that decision is mainly
22:36
outsourced to consulting companies and not all consulting
22:40
companies are European companies and not all of them actually
22:43
have, let's say a sovereign agenda on the table, which means
22:46
that we are missing out on big decisions on technology.
22:50
And the same reflection happened not just on the board.
22:53
If you go around in most of the organization, you will see that
22:56
IT which at the end, it's now one way to achieve technology
23:00
independence is being treated always as a call center.
23:03
It's never an advantage. It's every single company
23:06
isolates, tries to centralized isolates.
23:10
It is making it a problem, a must have problem.
23:13
It has to be controlled, addressed and squeeze so that
23:17
you don't overspend. We always believe that value
23:20
only comes to business. Lately, that's not really true.
23:23
You only become dependent and addicted to external technology
23:28
and even to external knowledge. Because we look now at how cloud
23:31
native revolution came and how Euro reacted.
23:35
And we are right now at least five years behind Europe, behind
23:39
other states like China and United States, even UK now maybe
23:42
three years to UK. And why is that?
23:44
Because we never have, we had, we never treated IT as as a as a
23:49
value stream. We always treat it as something
23:52
else that we have to control. And whenever we had to cut
23:54
costs, we started always with IT.
23:55
We always trade that and we never build the wisdom.
23:58
We never build what I call no innovation sovereignty.
24:01
We never build internal capabilities to actually
24:03
navigate and make critical decisions about technology.
24:07
And now with AI, the history, it's being repeated because we
24:11
rely mostly on American companies to use, you know,
24:16
they're AI, genetic AI and so on, technologies.
24:20
So we are not learning anything from the past.
24:24
They're still lagging and lagging and lagging.
24:25
And it's so clear that the future is being written in the
24:29
digital space for all of us. What do we do?
24:32
We buy and we consume. We don't create.
24:35
What I've just learned from you, and it's super interesting for
24:38
me to reflect upon that is that we regarded infrastructure,
24:42
technological infrastructure as commodity.
24:45
We've incorporated it into our organization as like a backbone
24:50
to it. But what AI and like generative
24:53
AI inherently now changes is to switch it into a value stream as
24:58
you just said. And what we're not equipped are
25:01
the mechanisms to flip into the value creation through it.
25:07
And we still, as you say, buy and consume external
25:13
infrastructure that for like those who sell it, create the
25:17
value, but not like we don't create it for ourselves.
25:21
And I do think that a lot of organizations on one hand side
25:26
lack these insights and then again, as you said, lack the
25:30
bravery to decide that they want to invest into the switch of
25:34
like making use for themselves on the value of the stream,
25:37
right? Correct.
25:38
Maybe I can add it. It's even more interesting is
25:41
that right now we are funding by being consumers all the
25:45
innovation for countries like United States.
25:48
If you look at the Stock Exchange evaluation of
25:52
infrastructure and cloud providers, you will see that
25:55
they are so valuable that they could easily buy our whole
25:59
industries like with our own money, more or less.
26:02
No, they are investing now 10s, hundreds of billions in the next
26:06
revolution, data centers and technology.
26:09
They are building GPUs, data centers, AI data centers.
26:13
They are building nuclear power on a rhythm that was not met
26:18
before. So they are building through our
26:21
here's something that we should yield by ourself.
26:24
So we are the gap is only growing and that's growing
26:27
because we have paying for all that.
26:29
When do you think was the time when we should have gone into
26:34
the direction of trading ourselves and not like reusing
26:38
it? So I in my head it looks like
26:40
this road. How do you say that those two
26:43
directions and we are currently like walking into the One
26:46
Direction and I I'm just wondering are we too late?
26:50
To change it. No, that that would be, that
26:52
would be sad. That would mean we just don't do
26:55
anything right now. That would be not brief.
26:58
I would say no, that would be like, like just quitting before
27:01
you even try to fix it. It's the same logic applies also
27:04
with global warming. You see, like a lot of activists
27:08
which are saying that's it. Now we have to accept the
27:10
consequences and nothing to be done.
27:12
I, I, I don't agree. We still have means to, to we
27:16
can be more creative. Maybe we have to be more
27:18
creative to, you know, recover all the time we lost.
27:21
So yes, we have to act today. We will not act today.
27:25
We will act tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
27:27
But we do have to act and we have to act in a strategic way
27:31
most likely. And when was the best time?
27:33
I mean, since again, we we were in Europe, we create Linux and
27:38
we create some last technology. We never had the focus to, you
27:41
know, to to treat it as a strategic asset.
27:46
We saw. So that was at the beginning of
27:48
Internet. So we we missed that
27:49
opportunity. Then we saw China understanding
27:53
clearly and they have so much material about why they feel
27:57
they had to achieve digital sovereignty.
27:59
I mean that that's known to Europe.
28:01
We knew the reasons why they are going that direction and we saw
28:05
them executing and starting from nothing and we lost that
28:08
conversation as well because we are very comfortable.
28:11
So we lost that point as well. Now today we also, maybe more
28:16
than ever, we understand why it's important.
28:18
That's very important. To understand why it's important
28:20
today, we ought to also understand that it is possible.
28:24
Before maybe we had, let's say the excuse that we don't know
28:27
what is possible and what is possible.
28:29
Now we see China, what they accomplish, we see their
28:33
example, copy the playbook, of course, the reasonable parts and
28:37
we know we're going to end up in a certain place.
28:39
So it's predictable. You have less risk in executing
28:42
such a strategy. So now we have the urgency and
28:46
we have no excuse from my point of view.
28:48
So yes, today would be the the best moment ever.
28:51
Thank you for pointing that out. And as we come to a close also,
28:56
it's very interesting episode. I want to have some in between
29:00
moments with you as these are like moments that I share with
29:03
my guests that I provide like a sentence or a food for thought.
29:07
And I would kindly ask you to answer in like 1 word or one
29:11
thought that you might have on it.
29:13
And I want to start with the first reflection.
29:16
And you trust for you feels like.
29:21
And downtime for you feels like. Opportunity cost.
29:24
What is velocity? To you being effective looking
29:27
at the outcome. What would you say we need more
29:30
of? Trust and honesty.
29:32
And what would you say, do we need less?
29:34
Of I. Want to say bullshit which I
29:35
just said so less narrative. And then last one, one word that
29:40
you're currently in between. In decisions.
29:42
I'll take that. I take that eyes eyes was too
29:44
hard. Yeah, it's a hard one.
29:47
Thank you so much for like sharing all your knowledge.
29:50
Thank you for also providing us like with such a broad
29:54
reflection upon culture, digital and personal sovereignty topics
30:00
that we touched upon. And I'm very much looking
30:03
forward to learning more from you in the future.
30:06
Thank. You very much for having me.
30:07
It was a pleasure.