Latest / The Joe Rogan Experience / #2526 - JD Vance

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#2526 - JD Vance · The Joe Rogan Experience

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Joe podcast check it out.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: But Joe Logan experience Train by Day.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Joe Rogan podcast by Night all Day. So the last
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: time we talked, last time I saw you, we were
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: at a cage fight at the White House.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's that's one of the craziest experiences of
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: my life. It must have been one of the craziest
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: experiences of your life.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. It took me like two weeks afterwards to recover,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: just to like, go, did that actually happen? That seems
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: it seems so insane.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, The most insane part of it, which I guess
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: was was before you got there, to me at least,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: is you know, like you come into work every day
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: in the White House, right, you know, I have an
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: office in the West wing. There's the Oval office in
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: the West wing, and you look out the window and
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: as this like eight story complex was growing up, it
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: was it was just the most unbelievable thing. It's like
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: the south lawn of the White House, but you've got
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: the eighth Wonder of the world up around and every
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: day I'd look at it and be like it would
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: take me a couple of seconds and be like, what
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: the hell is going on and I'd be like, oh, yeah,
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: it's UFC coming to a couple of weeks.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: The whole thing was surreal. First of all, it was
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: crazy that the weather just went around us, like there
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: was a real moment where the fights would have been
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: postponed until ten thirty pm start correct, and last minute
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: the storm just diverted.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: That's right. Well, and you know, this this this book
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: that I have that I guess we'll talk about a
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: little bit. But the book tour started the next day,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: so I was flying to New York the next day
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: to talk about it, and all I could think about
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: is every time we got the update from white House Weather,
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: oh it might not start until ten thirty, I was
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: seeing myself, Holy shit, that means I'm gonna go to
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: bed at like four am. I'm going to look like
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: a total crazy person trying to go talk about go
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: talk about this book. But yeah, it amazingly it did
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: work out. Honestly, it actually helped a little bit because,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: as you know, it was hot as hell out there
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: and super humid, you know, mid June in in DC,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: and I think the weather actually helped cool it down
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: a little bit because by about ten o'clock or so
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I was not thinking it's hot as hell out here anymore.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't too bad. But I talked to Justin
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Gatchee about it, and he said it was a problem
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: when he was fighting. He said the air was very thick,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: like it was like right after the first round. He
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: was like, boy, like, this is rough. It is that hot,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: humid air, and yeah, you know it's yeah, no, it's
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: it's it's fine walking around, it's.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: It's I mean, it's okay walking around. It still feels
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: it is a swamp, right, that's why people call it
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: the swamp. So you know, that's obviously June fourteenth.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: That's the president, not why they call it the swamp.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: That's one of the reasons why they call it the swamp.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: They call it swamp because of my colleagues.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Too, because it's filled with mud and water and gunk
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: and shit and swamp monsters.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Man. So that's June fourteenth, So that's the present's birthday.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: That's also was that was my twelfth wedding anniversary. Oh wow,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: and my wife, So that's that's the one thing. Like
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: if somebody runs in here, it's because my wife's going
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: into labor because she's like thirty nine weeks pregnant. But
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: I remember we go out to dinner, like right before
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: the UFC fight, and we of course checking the weather
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: report to figure out what's going on. And you know,
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  Speaker 2: my wife normally likes to come to the cool stuff
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: of being vice president. That was the one where she
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: was like, it's hot, I'm super pregnant, and I'm not
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  Speaker 2: going to sit out there for six hours.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I couldn't imagine. Also, it was just there
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: was so much chaos, and the potential for real chaos
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: was always there. First of all, you have the ellipse,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: So the ellipse has what eighty five thousand people outside,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: and for people that are watching at home, like we
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: could hear them like when the fights, when something would happen.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: And like kind of a delayed way. Yeah, yeah, you.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Hear the cheers from the people that were near. So
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: it was like three thousand plus people tightly close to
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  Speaker 1: the octagon and then you had eighty five thousand people
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  Speaker 1: and yeah, in the background. It was very eerie.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually loved that, Like I loved the delay
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  Speaker 2: reaction to where you know, somebody get a good punch
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  Speaker 2: in or you know, you get a takedown and then
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  Speaker 2: it was almost like the wave. Yeah, because there was
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: the initial center of it and then the people outside
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  Speaker 2: of it.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: It was pretty sick.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: It was pretty sick. I think Dana said not once
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: in a lifetime or not once in a generational once
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: in a lifetime experience.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's once ever. Yeah, I don't see
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: any other president. I mean, if you become president, you're
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: not going to.
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  Speaker 2: Do that, right, I don't know, man, I wouldn't.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to do.
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  Speaker 2: It's actually very cool, it's very very cool.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Get it over with, do it once. It was the
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: only time in the history of the sport where there's
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: been seven stoppages, seven seven knockouts, Like every single fight
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: was a Oh I didn't realize that every single fight. Okay,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: but the thing is, like, we've had seven knockouts and
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: a card. I think this last weekend we had ten
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: ten stoppages. But that was different, Yeah, because it was
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: like fourteen fights, right, we all fights. Every single fight
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: was a knockout.
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  Speaker 2: So the last fight, when did you realize that was over?
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: With Connor? Yeah, when he fell down a second time,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is not good. For the
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: first time, I thought he just slipped. It's hard to tell.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: It's wild. It's in the moment. I thought he slipped.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: And then when he got up and he threw a
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  Speaker 1: kick again, I'm like, oh, I don't like how his
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: leg just gave out. That didn't seem like I'm still
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: hoping he's just slipping. Yeah, I'm hoping he's just freaking
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  Speaker 1: out because he hasn't been the octagon in five years.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: And then he started moving around and he grabbed his
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: knee and buckled.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, and there was some conversation.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was some conversation going on between him and
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Max Holloway, and I was like, you know, Max is
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: saying he can't fight, like something's wrong, and he say
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: fight me. He's like, get up, and so he lets
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: him up and then he's his knee buckles and then
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: the referee stops there. Fight.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there. It's always so the very I think
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: it was the very last fight where the ref tried
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: to call it at the end of the third round,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: and then because he was he was saying that there
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: was a concussion issue. I mean, I couldn't tell.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: What was this Elia Taporia fight? Justin Gatsche fight, The
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Tuperio justin you couldn't see okay, he was saying, you
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: couldn't see, well, something was wrong with his right eye.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Well, and it looks like his whole face was puffed
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: up so he cadn't see anything. But okay. So I
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: thought it was a concussion thing, but it was not
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: because of his vision.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: No, they never then. I mean, the concussion thing would
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: only be if someone had been battered. There's a lot
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: of times where fighters are fighting with concussions. Yeah, it
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: happens all the time. Yeah, you get dropped in the
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: first round, you probably have a concussion. Yeah, you get
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: back up, you keep fighting. You're fighting on instincts. There's
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: been many times where fighters wake up in like the
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: fourth round, sure, and they fought three rounds and they
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  Speaker 1: don't remember it at all.
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  Speaker 2: Why, that's pretty crazy. Not the best way to make
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  Speaker 2: a living, Not the best way to make a living man. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: No.
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  Speaker 2: So we saw Geechee at the White House a couple
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  Speaker 2: of weeks ago.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that.
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  Speaker 2: I asked him, I was likes her, are you done fighting?
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: And he kind of hesitated a little bit, And then
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: I think it was his mom.
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  Speaker 1: Was in the Oval office with her She's like, yes, yeah,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: but you know, if they offer him some life changing
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  Speaker 1: money for one more fight after that performance, I have
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: a feeling he'll take it.
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  Speaker 2: Like what is what could he fetch for his next fight,
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  Speaker 2: like fifty more?
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: It's a good question, you know. I don't know what
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: his contract is. I don't know how it works. I
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: don't know what the most anyone's ever. I try not
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  Speaker 1: to pay attention to that stuff. Yeah, because I'm not
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: on the business end of the sport.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: You can kill your perception a little bit.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: It can, and it's also it's I mean, I want
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: them to get paid the most amount possible. That's my perspective. Yeah,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: but what I'm my job is just to analyze and
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: to see what's going on and to commentate and try
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  Speaker 1: to give color and life to what's happening inside the octagon.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't I try to dwell too much on
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: the money. I just want them to get paid a lot. Yeah,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I want them to be able to retire and never
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: have to do anything ever again. Sure, I don't know
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: if Justin could do that.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: What's crazy about it to me is just how much
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: the sport has replaced boxing, and like there's still obviously
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: boxing is still a big deal and the fighters still
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: get paid a lot of money. But like I remember
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: when I was I don't know, in high school, I
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: feel like people would get really excited about the big
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: heavy white. Wait, now it's the UFC thing. So culturally,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: it's like UFC has taken over boxing, and I don't
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how or why that happened. Like,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's just good marketing or if
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: it just the fights are so much more real and intense,
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: but it's it is a crazy shift that's happened in
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  Speaker 2: twenty years.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I've had some I had some friends this past
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: weekend that managed fighters, my friend Josh Dubin and a
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: few other friends that actually manage boxers. Yeah, come to
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: the UFC, and they were all like, oh my god,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: this is so much better than a boxing promotion. Yeah,
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: because you all the fights are exciting. With boxing, most
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: people are just there for the main event, and a
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: lot of people don't even stroll in until I fifteen
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: minutes before the main event. Sure, like all the famous
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: people that sit in the front row in the UFC,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: that place is packed for you five six, seven fights
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: in yeah, you know, and there's fourteen fights in the
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: night and all of them are amazing. It's like in
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: the beginning, it's usually like half full, depending on where
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: you are. If you're in a place like Salt Lake City,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: it's pretty packed, like right away because they only get
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: like one event every year or so. But it's just
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: a more exciting sport. There's more ways to win, it's
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: more dynamic, more things happen, and there's more stars. There's
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: so many stars in the UFC.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'd never seen a fight live before, like
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: I watched them on TV, but I'd never been there live.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: So kind of crazy that it's literally in the south
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  Speaker 2: lawn of the White House. But the thing that I
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: found completely shocking about it was like I would think
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: those those like arm bar takedowns are just done, like
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: that's it, you're over. But there were a couple of
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: times where somebody had another person's arm.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah that was Josh Hogan Derek Lewis.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: And it's like, holy shit, yeah he has your arm
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: broken off.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: He didn't he wasn't doing it right, Okay, Josh Hokit
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: is a great wrestler and he's an excellent fighter, but
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: he's not really a submission specialist. I mean, he did
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: get the arm bar, but he didn't do it right.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: He was basically like pulling on you have to elevate
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: your hips and you have to create space so that
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: the arm is bending back this way, his arm is
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: essentially flat to his chest, which is not what you want.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: What you want is a back arch like this where
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: you see like how it is right there. So what
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: he wants to do here, what he should do instead
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: of having his hips down his knees up, what you're
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: supposed to do is heavy leg, curls with the leg
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: and elevate the hips up and pull it way back
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: so he'd almost be bridging in it. He would be
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: on the top of his shoulders and bridging, and then
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: he would have broken his arm. The other option is
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: you pull it off to the side like this, Yeah,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: and you put it to the side of your hip
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: and you can break it. Okay, but it's just bad technique.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Yah Okay. So watching it, yeah, yeah, watching it, I
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: didn't realize that. I just could not believe that dude
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: held out for like thirty seconds.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Was that more shocking or when he said Michelle Obama
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: as a man. Which one was more.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Shocking, definitely the arm bar part. Man, I work in politics,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: people say crazy stuff all the time.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Well he says that every fight does. Yeah, yeah, he
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: said that the last time I interviewed him.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Oh man, Well.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: He's like a pro wrestling character.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Like. People lost their minds about it, I know, lost
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: their minds about it to the point where again I
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: had the view either the next day or the day after.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: And to sort of promote this book that must be fun.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: It was crazy. It was harder than any anything I've
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: done in politics. But the to the point where all
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: of my comms people, the thing they were most worried
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: about was They're gonna ask you about Michelle Obama being
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: called a man, Like, what are you going to say
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: about it? And I was like, what an amped up
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: fighter told a joke after a fight, said something after
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: a fight, and that's actually national news. I'm still surprised.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: I've been to politics now for three four years. I'm
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: still shocked this shit that people get really fired up about.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Well, I kind of understand it because it's at the
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: White House. First of all, A cage fight at the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: White House is crazy already. I mean, if he said,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Michelle Obama is a man at the T Mobile Arena
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: in Vegas.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: It's like it's a lost of a story.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: What he is is he's a very good fighter, first
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: of all, and but sometimes it's not enough to get attention.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: And so what Josh has done is created this persona,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: like this pro wrestling bad guy persona. When you talk
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: to him off stage, he's like very normal, very smart guy. Yeah. Yeah,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: it's just like he's decided, like, look, I want to
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: maximize the amount of eyeballs that see me, and I'm
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: gonna create this crazy person. He comes out to the
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Hulk Hogan song, I'm a real you, sunglasses of American
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: flag bandana. It's you know, he's he's I mean.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: I love I love the present. I love the presentation.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: But again, I like, not the.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Best thing to say at the White House, Michelle Obama's
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: a man is not the best thing to say.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Fair, But the reaction to it to me was still
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: totally disproportioned. Yeah, of course, dude, people say stuff all
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: the time, and what I Okay, I work in a
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: business where obviously people make life decisions, life and death
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: decisions all the time, and I'm always a little bit
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: caught off guard by the culture that just overreacts when
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: clearly the thing that Josh is trying to get is
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: the overreaction in the first place, Right, So you give
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: him exactly what he wants, and like, the worst you
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: could say is, oh, that was an offensive comment, and
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: you get on with the rest of your life, Like
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: that's the worst that you could say. The people who
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: really flip out about it and kind of lose their minds,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I just I don't understand that.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Well. First of all, I think a lot of it
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: is there is an economy that is essentially based on
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: getting reactions correct, and there's a lot of people that
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: are just, for a lack of a better term, they're
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: they're not real. They're they're their reactions are performative. Like
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of what they're doing is just trying to
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: trying to comment on things and get clicks and likes
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: and views. And social media has ruined discourse in a
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: lot of ways because people people are not having like
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: real conversations about things. They're reacting to things on Instagram
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: and Twitters, and you know, they're just they they look
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: at an opportunity like that, like, oh, I found a
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: gold nugget. Yeah, like this is going to give me money,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: or this is going to give me attention, it's going
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: to get Oh, I can't wait to have.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: A take on that. That's exactly right. So but okay,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: So my response to that is so many things is like, oh,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: he was being funny, he was being outrageous, and I
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: just move on with my life. What I find very
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: interesting is that people who say, you know, oh, that
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: was a joke, like when when Tony do you remember
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: he told like the Joker around the world in Madison
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Square during the twenty twenty four election. I remember getting
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: into an argument with somebody about this, and maybe not
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: like in an interview, but I don't remember. Could have
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: been private too. Anyway, I'm like, he told a joke,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: and the person's response is, well, it's not a very
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: funny joke. And my response to that is, you know
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: what happens when somebody tells me a joke that's not funny,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: I don't laugh, and then I move on with my life.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: This whole industry around outrage, especially getting outraged around humor,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: I think is actually really hurting the country.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Well, in that case, first of all, I told Tony
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: a long time ago, that joke was going to get
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: him stabbed. I really did. He even jokes around about
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: it on stage. He talks about me telling him that's
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: the one, dude, that's the one that's gonna get you stabbed.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Any good joke, at least it's going to run you
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: some risk.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: A racial joke, and that joke being about Puerto Rico.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: By the way, no one takes a joke better than
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Puerto Ricans. Puerto Ricans are some of the best people
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: at telling jokes, Like it is a culture of joking
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: and around with each other and talking shit like they're
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: great at Yeah, so.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Like guys in the Marine Corps, man, that's absolutely true.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: They love him still. You know, like even after that.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Joke, you you advised him not to tell that joke.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Well, it was kind of half joking, you know, Tony.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: That's what Tony does. You know what by I just said,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: that's the one that's going to get you stabbed. But
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: I mean that's what Tony does. Tony is like the
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Josh Hokitt of comedy. Like he but very talented. You know,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: he's a really good he's a roaster. He's just like
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: roasting his specialty. But it's also like he's trying to
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: ruffle people's feathers. That's what he wants to do. He
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: wants to piss people off, Like that's he likes being
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: a pro wrestling heel. He always he's a huge pro
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: wrestling fan.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Well, so well he so Tony. I like, I'm a
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: huge fan of his comedy. I've only met him a
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: couple of times. I don't know him particularly well, but
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: he's act like, you know, more political, I would say
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: than most comedians. Do you think it's there?
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, so very supportive of like Trump, Like.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: He's on the Republican teams.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: He's on the because he's experienced so many looney left
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: wing people in California. Yeah, that's why he had to move.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Well, somebody sent me a clip I think it was
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Shane Gillis at a roast where the joke was they
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: were roasting Tony and they're like, Tony Hinchcliff is the
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: only dude who would be excited if Jade Fance was here.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: And I was like, one, that's a very good joke,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: and number two, I feel like I had made it.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Like there have been a few moments where I feel
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: like I've made it when your.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: South Vice South the United States. I think you made it.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: When South Park spoofed me, I felt it more than
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: when I got it scorn In as Vice President of
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: the United States.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: That's hilarious. That's very funny. This episode is brought to
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  Speaker 1: you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research
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  Speaker 1: slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Yeah,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Tony is I mean that's his style, like like he
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: loves like being the heel. He didn't get the kick
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: out of it, yeh yeah, oh yeah, he's one of
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: the first people that moved out here with me. Okay, yeah,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I mean we've been here for six years now. Yeah,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: and every time we go back to California, we're like,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: we were right, Yeah, we were right. It's falling apart,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: keeps going further and further down the toylet.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: How do you feel like Austin is going Because the
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: criticism of Austin, call it five or six years ago,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: is that all that like it's a cool town, it's
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: got its own unique culture, It's Texas, but it's also
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: its own thing. But that all of the blue Staters
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: moving in, we're going to like totally change the politics
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: and the culture of Austin. I actually don't think that's happened.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: I think the Blue Staters that moved here moved here
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: because they recognize that wherever they were living was not tenable.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: It was falling apart. And all of these places like
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: New York and really California, like especially Los Angeles and
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: San Francisco, they're falling apart. And I have a bunch
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: of friends that are stuck there that can't move, like
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: maybe they have family there or maybe they have a
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: business there, and they fucking hate it. And then I
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: have a bunch of people that are trying to move
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: but they can't sell their house. Like it's nuts there, man.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I don't think people. First of all, you get gas
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: lit by Gavin Newsom. I mean he's just gaslighting everybody
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: about how well you know all the gdp of was
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: like the fifth largest country in the world. That's what
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: California is.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: It's like, dude, hey, bro, it was like that before
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: you were the government exactly. Also, how much does a
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: U haul cost if you're leaving California or how much
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: does it cost if you're going to California, Because that's
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: the real measure of whether a state's doing well.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the state has more people moving out than moving in,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: and that has never had happened before California's when I
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: moved there in nineteen ninety four. Until I left, it
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: was always every year traffic got worse every year, more
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: people moved there every year. And I loved it. I
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: loved it. I loved it. From the time I moved there,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I was like, this place is great. It's warm all
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: the time, the weather's fantastic, there's so much cool stuff
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: to do. The people are great. Yeah, and then politics
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: ruined it.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: That's right. So my wife's from South California, San Diego,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: and so we spent a fair amount of time there,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: and I just, I mean, I still feel a certain
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: sense of like heartbreak over La Oh, because every time
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I'm in la you can see why this was like
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: the quint essentially American city. The architecture is beautiful, it's
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: got its own vibe going. Like you said, the weather
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: is amazing, and then you drive through skid Row and
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: you're like, how could any state or any city let
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: this happen.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Skid Row is now fifty five blocks. It was fifty blocks, Yeah,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: just like a year or two ago.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, So my first experience with skid Row was so
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Usha used to work at this like very fancy litigation
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: firm in southern California. Of course she was a second lady.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: She was a corporate litigator. So there's a Christmas party
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: in downtown LA and you get these instructions from her firm,
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: and they're like, this really convoluted way of this is
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: how you have to get to this Christmas party. And
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: I'm like, why don't I have to follow these direct directions?
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Why don't I just put it in Google Maps?
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: This is like five or six, seven years ago, So
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: we realize that the reason why they gave you these
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: convoluted directions was so that you could avoid skid Row
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: at night. And so you get to this party, you
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: drive through skid Row if you follow Google Maps's directions,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: you get there and it's like this beautiful facility with
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: like fancy food and fancy wine, and then there are
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: armed guards outside of it and these gigantic walls. And
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I realized when I was there, you know what this
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: reminds me of. This reminds me of going to the
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: US Embassy and Port Prince Haiti, like super security, crazy
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: wealth and privilege and status on the inside and squalor
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: and misery on the outside. Like it's the first time
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: I'd ever thought America, Like, this part of America is
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: actually more like a third world country than anything that
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I thought we'd ever become.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, Yeah, why is it that
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: large population centers like places like Los Angeles and New
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: York are almost always run by the Democrats? Yeah, Like,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: what is it about? First of all, what happened with
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the last election in Los Angeles, just the primary. I
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: think it was crazy, So super suss. And here's why
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: it's supersius. Not just super sus. That Spencer Platt, Spencer Pratt,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: who was in second place got overtaken by Nitia Rahman
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: in the mail in ballots, but that the mail in
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: ballots also passed a tax hike. People voted to pay
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: more taxes in a state where you have the highest
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: that's right. They're like, we don't pay in that that
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: is insane. And then when you have direct evidence they
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: were recruiting homeless people and they were getting homeless people
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: and giving them cigarettes and cash, there's evidence, yes, to
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: use their their address and mail in ballots.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would have I would have beat the Californian
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Joe who wakes up in the morning and says, you
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: know what, I'm gonna go and vote for higher taxes.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: I don't pay enough taxes. I feel like we can
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: fix this if I more taxes.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: The crazy thing about it, too, is it's that, okay.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: So after the initial ballots all came in, it was
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Karen Bass was number one, Spencer Pratt was right behind her,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: and then number three whatever this one is, Smith, youram okay?
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: So you would expect the mail in ballots to be
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: more or less like the original ballots in terms of
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: one too. I'm not saying Spencer Roskin to win the
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: mail in ballots, but it just so happened that the
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: third place person in relative terms did a lot better
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: than the first and second place person portionately, such that
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: the Republican was actually kicked out of the race, so
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: that there's not actually a real election in California. That
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: to me was the crazy part. It's like you were
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: designing the vote share in order to kick Pratt out
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: and put the third person into second place. That to
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: me is like very very bizarre, because what is the
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: theory of the mail in vote that is somehow like
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: so much more pro nithia relative to Karen Bass.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Makes makes no sense, makes no sense. Why would it be?
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Why why would it be? I mean Karen Bass was
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: ahead by every metric.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean, okay, so you asked a question,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: why do all these blue states or why do all
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: these big cities population centers end up becoming end up
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: becoming blue? And I think it's like a very complicated right,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: So one thing, And you said this a few months ago,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: and like when you said it, I was like kind
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: of annoyed by it. But then I like thought, there's
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: like an element of truth to it, which is that
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Republicans still fundamentally have a cool problem, right, There's something
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: more charismatic, more cool about the Democrats as opposed to
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: the right. And so you said something about there are
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: too many dorks or something on the right.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of doarks, you know.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Fair, I'd say there's a lot of dorks whatever left too,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: but it's a different it's a different kind of dork.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: But the point is that there's something you know, like, Okay,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: if you're a pop star, you're a rock star, you're
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: an actor, you're in all these cultural centers you're more
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: likely to be left than right. And so I think
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: that a lot of young people who are attracted to
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: these population centers, they sort of move along with the
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: prevailing culture. I think that's one thing that's going on.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I think a second thing that's going on is the
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: people who are sort of attracted to a certain kind
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: of right of center politics. They want the suburbs, they
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: want the single family home. They kind of want to
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: be left alone. They don't want sort of to be
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: able to hear what their neighbors are doing. So I
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: think a little bit of it's just cultural self segregation.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: And that's meant that a lot of these population centers
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: have gone blue. But it's very complicated. I've thought about
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: this a lot, and I also just, man, I like,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not one of these people who says we should
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: just abandon California to the Democrats, like let them deal
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: with their own problems. I think California is like a
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: quintessential part of the American dream. Like if you just
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: abandon California, you've like lost something very core to American culture.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: And I just I don't want to give.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Up on it.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Like I'm not saying we're gonna win California in my
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: lifetime necessarily, But I don't like the idea of giving
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: up on it.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not just giving up on I mean giving
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: up on it would be terrible. It's an awesome state.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: The real problem is it's deeply corrupt. I mean deeply
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: deeply corrupt. And what they're trying to do is make
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: it impossible for the other side to win. Yeah, and
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: there should be laws against that. First of all, the
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: idea of mail in ballots for anybody other than people
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: who are invalids who can't live their homes, or military
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: or people that for some reason they're serving overseas, they're
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: doing something overseas, it should not be legal, right, And
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: the fact that it became ubiquitous during COVID, which is
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: a giant problem.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this raises one of my total segue here sidepoint.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: But so if you remember in the aftermath of the
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty election, where there was all this like debate
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: about was the election stolen, was the actionnot stolen? All
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: the litigation that moved through, there was a case in
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Pennsylvania that like didn't get very much attention, And I'm
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: going to butcher it a little bit but basically it
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: was a guy in a rural area of Pennsylvania saying,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: you're undercounting my vote because we didn't have the opportunity
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: to do the mail in ballots like they did in
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. And like, the argument was a kind
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: of disparate impact, right, the cities ginned up all the
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: mail in balloting and the ballot harvesting. You didn't do
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: that in the country, and that hurt sort of our representation.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: They take this case to the Pennsylvania courts, and what's
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: crazy is the Pennsylvania courts basically say, you're making kind
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: of a good point here, like the ballad harvesting did
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: affect Republicans in a more negative way. It did mean
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: that certain people in the more rural parts of the
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: state were underrepresented it. But then the court conclusion was
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: this is not a problem the court can fix, Like
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: that's a political problem. Change your local elections leaders, change
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: your laws, Like that's not a remedy that the court
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: has to fix. And so everybody saw that case and
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: they're like, oh, the judge rules against Donald Trump, rules
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: against Republicans for saying that there was something illegitimate. But no, actually,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: the judge kind of said, there is something kind of
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: fishy here. We're just the wrong venue to fix it.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Well, it's just very disheartening that you have to consider
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: the fact that it's really possible that the elections get stolen,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: and the California one was a big one for me.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: And why not just have mail in or why not
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: just have voter ID?
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah? You actually that's not only did they not have
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: voter ida. You can't show your idea, You're not allowed
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: to show your ear.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Can impact be like prosecuted if you try to force
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: somebody to show their eyes.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: That seems like you want people to cheat exactly. And
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: it's just from the same people that we're saying you
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: have to have an ID that shows you've been vaccinated
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: just four years ago to go.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: To Rosty shopping or to go to a restaurant. Yeah, no,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: it's it's definitely. That's the part about it that I
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: think makes most people of my political persuasion skeptical of
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: what the Democrats are doing. Like, if you don't want
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: to cheat in the election, then just make everybody actually
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: show an ID. The other thing people don't realize is
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize it until a couple of years ago.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: The voter ID solves a lot of the mail in
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: ballot problem because if you have to show an ID
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: in order to get a mail in ballot in order
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: to actually, you know, confirm that there's a real identification
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: attached to that vote, that solves a big chunk of
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: the problem.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: Too logical, Yes, Like I don't, I'm not. Every country
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: does it. I'm not skeptical. I'm accusing them. I think
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: they stole the election, yes, and I think it's common.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: And you know this idea that elections can't be stolen.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I always say to people, Okay, do you think that
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: the amount of election fraud is zero percent? No one
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: thinks that. Yeah, no one thinks it's zero. There's always
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: some over zealous person that works somewhere that's doing something.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: There's always crazy people that like blue. No matter who,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: we gotta win or read no matter what, there's always
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: people right and left that are going to try to
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: rig the election because they think it's imperative our nat Like. Look,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: we saw there was people like Oprah Winfrey was saying
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: it like if we don't win this election, you may
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: never vote again. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: why who's going to tolerate that left or right? That's crazy.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: But that attitude allows people to us to find cheating correct,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: And I think they cheat, and I think they've been
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: doing it forever, and I don't think there's any other
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: reason why you would have no voter ID. And they
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: try to say, oh, it's racist to have voter ID, Like,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Do you think other races
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: are incapable of going to the d m V.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: That's insane, that's racist's actually super racist. That's really the
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: implication of their argument is literally like blacks and Hispanics
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: cannot go to the DMV and to get an ID.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: By the way, if you look at the polling, black
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Americans are as pro voter I D. Even though the
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: most Black Americans vote Democrat, there's still pro voter ID
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: as much as white Americans is.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Most Americans are voterized the ID except for operatives.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: So I'll offer on the Joe Rogan podcast this deal
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: is vice president of these United States that if Democrats
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: really don't think that there's any cheating, give us voter ID.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: I just don't know, and we'll stop.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Talking about is that not a federal thing?
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: We are trying to make it a federal thing. So
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: we are right now trying to pass the Save America Act.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: One of its main provisions is a requirement that you
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: do voter ID and we actually have I think a
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: majority of the Senate that would support it. But this
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: is just weird Senate procedural bullshit. There is a sub
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: segment of people who want voter ID but won't blow
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: up the filibuster in order to achieve it, and so
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: they're so married to these old world Senate procedures that
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: they're going to make it impossible for us to pass
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Save America.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: We are, for what it's worth, trying to fix that
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: and trying to address these like weird procedural archaic things.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: It's insane though, Like if you ever okay, I'm sure
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: you hear people talk about the filibuster all the time. Yeah,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Here's what the filibuster is. It is a pure Senate rule.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: It is a creation of the Senate procedures, which basically
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: says that anything that has to do with the budget
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: is a fifty vote threshold, and anything that everything else
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: non budgetary is a sixty vote threshold. Now, as you
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: can imagine, there's some gray area on things that maybe
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: your count as budget issues and should be fifty, or
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: are not budget issues and count at sixty. So what
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: we have tried to persuade the Senate to do is
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: to treat the voter id as something that can fall
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: within the fifty vote threshold. And there is no law,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: there's no provision in the Constitution. It is legitimately that
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: there are senators who are so attached to the idea
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: that budget is fifty non budget is sixty, that they're
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: quite literally willing to prevent voter idea in America. God,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: it's nutsty, it's crazy.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: And it's also like the idea that somehow or enough,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: like Kathy Holtchell had the craziest take on it.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Did she often does?
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Did you see her take on it?
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: I have not.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: She was talking about black people in inner cities not
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: even knowing what a computer is. Did you ever see that? No?
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: I didn't see that.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, it was so crazy. And then this
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: one comedian, this black comedian, did this hilarious video where
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: he was like circling around a computer, staring at it,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: like touching it like you didn't know what it was.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: It's like, what are you talking about? Everyone has a phone,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: that's a computer.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: So many of these Democratic talking points presume that their
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: own voters are actual idiots. That's actually there's a big
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: difference between you know, Republicans. We sort of presume that
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: our voters are adults, and you don't see that with
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: a lot. I'm not saying every Democrat, of course, I
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: don't want to cast too broad of a brush here,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: but it's it's like, you know, Gavin Newsom did this
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: speech a few months ago the president. I think it's
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: the funniest thing ever because he's like speaking to a
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: group of black leaders and black businessmen, but it's like
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: an audience that is ninety five percent black, and they're
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: asking him about his dyslexia and his struggle with education,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: and he basically says, yeah, you know, I'm not very
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: smart like a lot of you.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: And it's like I'm like you, I'm like you can read. Well.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: There's a ton of interviews where he's talking about all
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: the books he reads, like he's.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: So full of shit. Yeah he's he's full of shit,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: but it's.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: It's admirably full of shit. But it's it's I admire
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: the fucking the sheer tenacity that he has and being
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: full of shit.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: It's amazing, It really is amazing. But it speaks to
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: the incentives of there's kind of like, look, there's a
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: real populism that I'm very much a fan of because
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: I think you should be responsive to people, but there's
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: like a faux populism of the way that I'm going
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: to appeal to people is by assuming that they're idiots
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: and acting like they're idiots. And then but if you're
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: committed enough to that bit, eventually it kind of leaks
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: out what you're doing. And I think that's that was
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: sort of what Gavin did there, as he told on
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: himself a bit.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well it was just it's just he's bizarre.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: I will say, I I've only met Gavin. I think
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: I've only met him one time in my life, and
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: it was it's such a crazy experience. So the debate
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: between Biden and Trump during the twenty twenty four cycle,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: and I'm there, I'm actually doing an interview for a
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: documentary when the debate starts, and there's this clip of me.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: The debate starts, I'm in the middle of this interview,
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: there's a big screen behind me as I'm talking to
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: the camera which is here, and I kind of freeze
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: and I look back at the TV and I'm like,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: oh my god, Like this is actually happening. Biden is imploding,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: because if you remember, it was obvious from the get go.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: So I go to the spin room afterwards, and that's
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: where you know, all these reporters and all the surrogates
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: of the candidates. This is before I was the VP nominee,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: and I'm just like, you know, talking about how great
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: the president did, how bad President Biden did. Okay, I
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: see Gavin Newsom there and he literally looks like he's
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: seen a ghost. Like I've never seen a person who
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: as good of a bullshitter as he is who realized
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: there was no selling that performance. Like, but can you imagine,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: like try to put yourself in the perspective of a
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: human being. I always try to, you know, be empathetic.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Where Joe Biden has just had that debate and you
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: have to go on CNN to talk about how great
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: of a job Joe Biden did.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Well, my favorite is Joe Scarborough because Joe Scarborough before
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: it was like you know, I'm gonna say something and
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: f you if you can't take it. This is the
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: sharpest Biden we've ever seen. Have you ever seen that? I? Oh,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: it's amazing. And then after the debate he's like, we
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: got to get rid of him. He's got to go.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: He's gotta go, hey, hey, hey, what did you say?
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: You just said a couple of months ago, this is
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: the best Biden ever.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: That's wild.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Well, it's like, I wonder what was going on with that,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: because like the debates were earlier than they've ever been before,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: and it seemed to me it's like there was a
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: concerted effort to hide what was wrong with Everybody was bullshitting,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: everybody was gaslining us. We all saw it. I remember
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: a friend of mine who's super progressive, super liberal, you
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: know what I talked about on a podcast. I'm like,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: this is crazy. Even if he wins, he's not going
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: to be the guy that's the president. You're going to
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: have his cabinet that are running everything. Turned out I
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: was right, and they were saying, oh, don't you understand
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: that he has a stutter? And I said, where with
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: funck was that stutter in the nineteen nineties, Like that's crazy.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Like a stutter that only shows up when you're eighty
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense. Yeah, yeah, like this is
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: a lie. You're lying. He's had two brain surgeries, like
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: where they have to take the top of your head off.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Literally they have to take like a cap.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Wait, Biden had two brain surgeries. Oh yeah, how did
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: I know this?
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: You didn't know this.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that he had two brain surgery.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Two brain surgeries. Jamie, please let us up. Make sure
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: that I'm right. I'm ninety nine percent sure I'm right,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: But I know he had. Did you get in that? Well?
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: It kept him alive. It kept him alive, I mean
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: he Biden has not undergone recent brain surgery. He underwent
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: two successful life saving oh, brain surgeries to a pair
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: to intracranial aneurysms in nineteen eighty eight.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty crazy.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: His medical professionals have stated that he made a full
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: recovery and suffered no lasting brain damage or cognitive impairment
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: from these procedures. Oh, it's from the Washington Post, so
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: you know it's accurate and definitely not bias at all.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: And these medical professionals were those the same people that
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: said that the COVID vaccine is safe and effective. It's
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: it's we we live in a wonderful time for bullshit.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: It's like, because they'll bullshit, you're right to your face
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: like we do. They have two brain surgeries, like major
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: brain surgeries because you have an aneurysms. I don't care
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: who you are, that's probably going to do some damage.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Aneurysms are.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people die from aneurysms all the time. That's the
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: crazy thing is I never even knew about that.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: How did you not know about that? That's nuts. I
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: knew about it.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Well. It speaks to how constrained our media environment is
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: that even I had never.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Heard right, it was not a part of the narrative.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: It's certainly not from the Democrats. But yeah, he's it
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: was clearly. I just don't understand why they ran him
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: in the first place. The whole thing made no sense.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: And then to have no primary and just stick Kamel
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: in there and then all of a sudden pretend that
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: she's the best thing ever and like this idea, like
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: complete flip of her being the least popular vice president ever,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: always sticking her foot in her mouth, always saying crazy shit.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: How dare we say Merry Christmas. Remember that one, Like,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: what the fuck is what are you saying? Like joy
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: is bad? Merry Christmas?
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Legitimately, when the campaign consultants told me, hey, we're gonna
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: hit this line because Kamala Harris came out in favor
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: of taxpayer funded sex changes for illegal aliens, and I
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: remember the myself, come on you guys, like she didn't
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: really say that, it's taken out of context. And then
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: I go and look at it. I'm like, holy shit,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: she actually said that, and she was she really was
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: like the very worst version of what the Democrats were
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: producing in twenty twenty. The thing is it was they
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: were all doing it because that was the incentives of
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: the party. Like if you remember the debate where it
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: was do you want taxpayer funded Medicare for illegal aliens? Which,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: like Medicare is the program to provide healthcare to the
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: elderly that people pay into for like you know, your
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: entire working life, you see your little Medicare tax statement.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: And the idea that we were going to give taxpayer
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: funded healthcare to illegal aliens, it was just insane. It
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: was a ninety ten issue, but their party in twenty
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: twenty got kind of taken over by the radicals. And
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: I think, actually maybe you're seeing a little bit of
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: that happening right now, where it seems like the radical organizations,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: the nonprofits, the donors are pushing the party in a
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: direction that most of the voters haven't gone in. Like
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: you ask why Joe Biden was the nominee, and I'll
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: say something in defense of Joe Biden, so, like, was
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: he the most effective politician know had he had two
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: brain surgeries, yes, and clearly had shown the native signs
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: of aging. But he was kind of the only candidate
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: if you go back to twenty twenty, who could hold
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: together like the reasonable middle class Black American and the
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Atlanta suburbs with whatever is going on on the far
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: left of the Democrat Party. And I think this is
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: sort of the issue their party has. I mean, our
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: like to be candidate, Our party has its own coalition problems,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: and it's always tough on a two party system to
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: hold everybody together. Like I think about this a lot.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: I think it's really tough on the Democrats because the
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: core of their party, like the most important voting block
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: in the Democratic Party is middle class Black Americans socially
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: moderate to even socially conservative, maybe a little bit more
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: economically populist on certain business and tax issues. You know,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: they don't want to give tax breaks to major corporations.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: They also don't want to trans the kids. That's the
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: base of their party. But then you've also got like
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: the crazy people, and you have to kind of hold
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: that together. I think the argument for Biden was he
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: was one of the only people could hold that together,
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: even though he was an awful politician in his own right,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: even before he was like old.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Well, because he was he was Obama's vice president exactly,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: and you know, he's established, he's a known name, and
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: for the people that were kind of casuals weren't really
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: paying attention to politics, he's a proven commodity, right.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: He doesn't read as a crazy person to the general electorate,
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: even though you know.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: God, Harry Larks tell me Tory, He's like, oh, tell
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: you about cord Pop, Like what oh fuck is going on?
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: The thing I couldn't get where Biden is is just
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: bad staff workman. The way that he ate ice cream.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: I mean it's like, you know, we could bring some
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: of this stuff up, but it's like they would get
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: him eating ice cream in the most ridiculous, suggestive way imaginable.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: I never even paid attention.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's just such bad optics. Okay, So
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: there's there's a clip I want to say from the
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: twenty sixteen campaign where somebody is campaigning in Iowa, and
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: like us, the Iowa State Fair is like one of
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: the main things you go to when when you're running
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: for president, and they give somebody a corn dog, and
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: somebody eats the corn dog and it becomes like a
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: major news cycle for a long time, and I will
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: never forget. In twenty twenty four, I'm sure we are.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: I know you got a little fun sometimes though. But
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four, somebody is holding up a sign
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: at the Iowa State Fair, and I think it may
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: have been the Vikes, one of a Vakes event, Vake
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Ramaswami's events, and the sign says, eat the corn dogs,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: you cowards. The best political signs I've ever seen.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: That's funny. That's funny. Yeah, you'd have to be a
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: very manly man to be able to eat a confidently,
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: confidently eat a corn dog.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know that I could do it, Joe.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: I eat them. They're good. Yeah, but its good.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Are you footing? I love corn dogs. I've been graphed,
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: You've been photographed eating a corn dog.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: I'm sure someone has one of the immort.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Life that I've led.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: I try.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: I try to eat my corn dogs. That's between that's
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: between me and my kitchen.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not scared to eat a corn dog. I just
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: think it's funny that people just they're so afraid of
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: being anything that looks like a dick. You can't bananas,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: corn dogs.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: You're gonna be careful when you're politics. This isntics based
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: business here.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: What are those popsicles? The ones that yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: I get it. I mean, but it's just like, that's
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: how crazy we are, that that's what weird people out.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: The way someone eats a hot dog.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: It's like, okay, well that's that's where we are, man.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's the difference between you know, the crazies and
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: the real reasonable Democrats is so stark to me. I
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: did I. And it's also with the right, it's like
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: we're always the party is always defined by the worst
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: examples of the right that's right, you know, yeah, or
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: or of the left, you know, whatever it is, whether
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: it's a Patriot Front or whether it's Antifa.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, so who do you think is the worst example
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: of our side? Like who do you read about on
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: our side? And your reaction as holy shit, and don't
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: say jade fans is gonna be very awkward interview. I'm
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: screwed with you.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Well, the people that you know. One of the things
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: I had James Tallerico on the podcast, and one of
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: the things that I think he has a really good
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: point about, even though I know you're a Catholic and
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: you're very religious, putting the Ten Commandments in schools, I
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: don't think is the right way to do it. And
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: this is a guy Tallerco who was in seminary and
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: is very Christian. He just thinks that even though he
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: believes in the Ten Commandments, if you're just only representing
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: the Christian faith in these schools, you're forcing your religion
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: into other people's lives, and that this is going to
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: push people away from Christianity rather than encourage them to
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: pursue it. Yeah.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think you'd ever want to force things
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: on people, and I do. I think one of the
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: core Christian contributions to Western civilization is the idea of
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: freedom of religion. It's actually very much a Christian idea
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: because you recognize the dignity of its individual and part
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: of recognizing that dignity is that each person has to
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: find their own pathway to God. You can't force this
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: on anybody. I don't think putting the Ten Commandments up
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: in school is like forcing things on any But it's
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: public schools.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: So I mean, if you're going to do that, why
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: not put Buddhist scripture, Why not put you know, Muslim's stuff.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: You could, you could you could make an argument why
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: you should have a bunch of different religious tenets in school.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: I think in the Supreme Court there actually are a
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: lot of different sort of historical cultural legal documents that
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: are up there, and I want to say that Moses
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: coming down with a tablet is one of them, but
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: I think there actually are other cultural and maybe even
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: other religious elements of this. Like where you recognize is
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: that a big part of sort of the law giving
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: tradition in Western civilization is the is some of these
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: religious texts not exclusively Christian religious texts, obviously some Jewish.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: There's like an important contribution from the Muslim world in this,
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: So I guess I don't think of it as exclusionary,
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: while also recognizing that, you know, America is a society.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Our founders were people who were very much influenced, even
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: if they weren't Christians. A lot of them, of course were,
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: but were very influenced by Christian culture and articulating American law.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: So my argument would be, even if you're not a Christian, like,
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: does seeing the Ten Commandments? Let me put it slightly
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: every way, does seeing the Ten Commandments force religion on
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: a non Christian child? I mean, my argument would be no.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: And I'd illustrate this by saying, well, there are all
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: of these ways in which you actually could try to
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: force religion on a child, right.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not the worst way to force religion on
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: a child, but to have it and not represent any
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: other religion. This is Texas, by the way. So what
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: he's talking about was that there's these Christian nationalists, these
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: these guys that are very wealthy that are trying to
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: fund Christian schools and trying to defund public schools or
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: any other kind of religious school and what they want
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: to do, and they pass this to get the Ten
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Commandments in all public school classes. And he's fundamentally opposed
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: to that as a Christian because he thinks it's going
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: to force people to have this in their class and
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: it's going to push people away from Christianity.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, I understand the argument. I just don't see
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: it that way. I mean, I guess if I'm if
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: I hear you, But if I'm a non religious student
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: and I'm sitting in there and I see the Ten
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Commandments at the very least, I think I can appreciate it.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, I, you know, okay, but what.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: If you're Hindu. What if you're a Muslim and you know,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: and you are seeing that represented but not your faith.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a public school, first of all, I think
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: that you you. I mean, I'm pretty sure Muslims. I'm
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: not hardly an expert on Islam, but I think all
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: of the Abrahamic faiths recognize the Ten Commandments as like
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: a significant thing. But I think if I was a
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Hindu looking at the Ten Commandments, I mean, again, it's
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: hard for me to say this right from my perspective,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: but I certainly went through an atheist phase in my youth.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: And what I would see that as as a non
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: religious person or a different religion is I would say
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: this is like an important cultural element of the Western civilization,
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: which is the foundation of the classroom that I'm sitting in.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: And this idea that the law comes in a sort
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: of above any man, even if you don't believe in
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: God yourself. I think that's like an important concept. I mean,
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: if you look at the Ten Commandments, probably eight of
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: them or something that I would hope that everybody would
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: agree with, even if they're not themselves religious. So I
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: guess here's my view on it. Like I would not
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: be offended if I Saturday classroom as a Christian, or
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: if my kids sat in a classroom is a Christian
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: and saw, you know, a religious text that wasn't Christian
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: on the wall, I would encourage to see that. Now,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: I'd encourage them to see that as a learning experience.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: What if it was from the Qur'an? What a bunch of.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: If it's like something crazy, But but no, I mean,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: if it's if it's something that is like culturally interesting,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I guess I don't. I don't have a problem with
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: my kid reading.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: The problem is it's mandated. Like if you have a
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: classroom and the teacher is Christian, and the teacher wants
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: to have it in their classroom, maybe that's one thing.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: But if you're mandating that you're going to have the
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: Ten Commandments in classrooms, that's a different thing, because now
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: you're you're pushing Christianity on kids, and this is tallary
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: ghost position. And as a Christian, he's saying, I think
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: this is going to push children away from Christianity.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: So again I understand what he's saying. I just I
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: think that part of living in a society where you
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: have different people with different perspectives, but you do have
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, Christianity is the majority religion of the United States.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: It is the religion that was extraordinary influential to our founding,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: to the constitutional principles. Again, freedom of religion is itself
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: not really a liberal concept. It was originally derived from
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: a Christian idea about free will and the dignity of
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: the person. I think part of that is that you
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: accept that you're going to have exposure to different things.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: And if a state legislator in a majority Christian state
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: wants it's not like they're putting the Ten Commandments in
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: front of these kids and saying you have to read
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: this and write it five hundred times a day, they're
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: exposing kids to something. And I'm comfortable with kids being
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: exposed to a lot of different things. I think that's
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: part of living in a society where there's a free
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: exchange of ideas. And what I worry about with Talerico's
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: sort of perspective here is again I'm not saying that
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: I don't want kids to be exposed to anything that
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: is outside of the Christian candidate, like I actually want
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: my kids exposed to things. I write about this in
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: the book that I think it's important to have a
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: ground and enough faith that you can engage with a
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: lot of different ideas and still ultimately, you know, sort
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: of hold on to your Christian faith. But isn't part
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: of just living in a like pluralistic democracy that people
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: are going to be exposed to different things. And you know,
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: I would kind of put it on too, Lerico in
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: a slightly different way that for a long time in
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: this country, they were actually Supreme Court rulings that said
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: that you cannot pray in a school, even a student
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: organization led by the students, or that you cannot put
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: the Ten Commandments up even a teacher who chose to
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: do it in their own classroom, And so I think
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: you're always kind of trying to strike this balance, you know,
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: given that we have the First Amendment in this country,
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: between allowing the practice of religious faith in public spaces
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: and possible forcing religion on other people, I think you
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: have to strike that balance the right way.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: I guess.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: I just say is that if the Ten Commandments being
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: in a classroom is the thing that you think is
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: forcing religion on somebody, was he equally offended when the
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Ten Commandments were like quite literally prohibited from being listed.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: And I don't know. I don't know if he was
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: offended by that or if he was opposed to that,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: But the idea of being exposed to it is one thing.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: It being mandatory is another. And to mandate that in
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: classrooms is a different thing, because you are promoting, clearly
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: promoting Christianity. And his position is that promoting Christianity in
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: that way is going to have an opposite effect on children.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: You're pushing it on them, and so you're not just
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: exposing it to them, you're pushing it on them. And
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: especially if you're pushing it on children who come from
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: a household that has a different faith.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: I guess I just think the balance in our country
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: the last thirty forty years has actually been much more
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: in the other direction, which is that we try to
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: completely remove religion from the public square. And I think
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: that poses its own problems, because you know, people practice
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: their faith in all kinds of ways.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: I think that that's the responsibility of churches and synagogues
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: and where that. Like, if you want and in the community,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: if you want to promote religion, promote it that way.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: But promoting in public schools should be just educational. And
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: if you're in a religious class and a class is
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: teaching about religion, that's a different story.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: Well, you're right, it's certainly the responsibility of churches and
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: synagogues and mosques and so forth. But I also think that,
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: you know, the late Supreme Court Chief Justice William Rehnquist
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: sort of said this that if your approach to religion
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: in public life, always and everywhere is to push it
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: out of the public square, then you're actually embracing a
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: religion of your own in the public square, which is secularism.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: You're just taking one religion and replacing it with secularism.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: And I guess what I'm saying is I'm kind of
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: comfortable with people of different faiths sharing the public square together.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: But part of that is that if if I'm in
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: a ninety five percent Christian community and my local city
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: council wants to put up a Nativity display on you know,
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: Christmas Eve, I'm okay with that. And that was actually,
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: like for a long time in our country, actually prohibited.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: And so what I think is that we got we
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: we sort of put ourselves in this frame in this
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: country where we said every public display of religion is
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: somehow illegitimate. But I mean, I don't know. I try
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: to live my faith in a way that's consistent across
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: different spheres of my life. You know, I don't preach
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: to people. I don't like walk into the White House
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: to tell my employees, you know, you need to be
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: you need to follow Jesus as your Lord and savior.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: I just try to live my life in a way
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: that hopefully makes people a little curious about what, you know,
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: what motivates me and what inspires me. But I also
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: don't think that the expectations should be that we tell
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: religious people they're not allowed to be religious in the
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: public square, because I think that's what we've done last
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: thirty or forty years. I guess you know we can
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: agree to disagree. I see the Texas thing as an
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: attempt to correct that.
• 58:07
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• 58:58
  Speaker 1: com and sign up to day Well. I think living
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: by example is probably the best promotion of any good
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: way to live your life, whether it's Christianity or any
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: other religion. I think that's definitely the way to do it.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: But the point is that this is being promoted by
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: very wealthy people who are Christian nationalists who want this
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: to be they want it to What is going on here,
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: jam You got Bible stories become required reading in Texas
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: public schools. Yeah, see, well now that's a you're taking
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: it to another level. So this is June twenty sixth,
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: this is very recently. That is that kind of thinking,
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: and that kind of mindset is what bothers me the
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: most about some Republicans.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: I see what you mean.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: And then there's people that, again, they live their life
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: in a very beautiful way and they follow the teachings
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ and they're very admirable, and I think
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: that's very attractive, and it makes people very curious about
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: that religion, and I think that brings people to Christ
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: and I think it brings people to religion. But then
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: there's people like did you read that report that came
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: from at the start of the Iran War where there
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: was a guy who was an officer, noncommissioned officer who
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: was at a briefing and this guy came in as
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: explaining to them that they didn't need to be afraid
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: because this war was important because Trump had been anointed
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: by Jesus Christ to bring about his return, and the
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: way they were going to Jesus is going to return
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: is by bombing Iran.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: I did not see that report. Sounds pretty far out
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: there to me.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: This is the kind of right wing I see thinking.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: So here it is military commander tells troops bombing Iran
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: is part of God's divine plan. So we started getting
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: calls the wee hours of Saturday morning from people saying
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: their commanders were just jubilant about this, trying to tell
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: people don't worry, It's all part of God's plan. They
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: promised a two hundred mile long river that is four
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: and a half feet deep, filled with nothing but the
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: blood that their weaponized version of Jesus will spill at
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: the Battle of Armageddon. Weinstein said, what was the one? Uh?
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: There was a there was an article where the guy
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: was explaining the actual quotes that the the one officer
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: was telling them the one commander. Uh. Yeah, but it's
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: not that it was very specific. He was. It was
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: very specific what he said.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, for what it's worth, my attitude on this
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: stuff is I mean, first of all, as a Christian,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: you sort of believe that everything is part of God's plan,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: even things that are ultimately very terrible. I mean, you
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: kind of have to hold up.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Let me let me read the quote here. I urged
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: us to tell our troops that this was all part
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: of God's divine plan, and he specifically referenced numerous citations
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: out of the Book of Revelations referring to armageddon and
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: the imminent return of Jesus Christ. He said that President
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Trump had been anointed by Jesus to light the signal
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: fire in Iran to cause armageddon and mark his return
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: to Earth. Okay, if I'm in that meeting, I hit
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: the breaks.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: Well, that's that's where you need some of the psychedelics
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: we talked about at the last Joe Rogan Jadvan's conversation.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: That would definitely help.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: I mean my response that, first of all, like, obviously,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: do I endorse that. No, do I think that it's
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: important that people reigning in a little bit, because I'm
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: sure you're right there were a lot of troops there
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: probably a lot of Christian troops there are Like, uh,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure this is exactly right, right, But the
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: important point is I think it's important as a Christian leader,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: as Christian's period, one of the things we have to
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: do is just have humility in the face of God's plan.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: There's a lot that we don't understand. There's a lot
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: that we don't get, and I think especially on matters
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: of war and peace, the approach that I try to
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: take is you try to make the best decisions that
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: you can. You hope that you're on God's side. You
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: don't assume that God has taken your side. That's that's
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: a very famous Abraham Lincoln quote, and that's the attitude
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: that I take. So for that, what I you know,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: what I would encourage that NCO to say is, you
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: know what, God is in control. We don't know what's
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: going to happen, but let's pray and try to do
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: as good of a job as we can trusting in God.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: If I was speaking to a group of Christian troops,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: that's what I would say.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: But you're speaking to a group of troops sure don't
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: know of their Christian Yeah, yeah, I mean you're essentially
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: letting these people know that you believe that Trump was
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: anointed by Jesus to bomb Iran, so that Jesus can
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: come back, just.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Come back in a fire.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: Can I get the fuck out of here? Yeah?
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: No? Look yes, And I uh, that's that is the
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: first that I have ever heard of this particular story.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: Have you not heard of this and Biden's two brain surgeries?
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: Apparently I live in a bunker, man.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: How do you not know?
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, here's the other thing I'll say is having heard
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: about this for the first time, just now to your
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: point about the media, I do think it's possible, let's
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: be honest, that whatever that dude said, maybe it was good,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: maybe it was bad, has been misreported by the press.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: So I always have a filter on this stuff, Like
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: I don't automatically assume.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: It's also possible that this is the other thing he said.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: The commander supposedly had a big grin on his face
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: when he said all this, which made his message seem
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: even more crazy.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: And I think that's again, I don't think anybody should
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: have War is sometimes necessary, but it's never a good thing.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: And I think that's like a fundamental Christian principle is
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: there are just wars. There are necessary wars, but war
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: is always something that you try to right.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: But saying that this is what's being referenced in the
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: Book of Revenue, I should get.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: I think that is nuts. I also don't know that
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: that you know, I want to be confirmed, to confirm
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: that this person actually said that before teeing off on it,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: because what that sounds to me is like somebody butchering
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: or misrepresenting something that you know, somebody that I know
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: might have said.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: Quite possible, So I just you got to be also
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: quite possible that you've got a really looney guy who
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: is a Christian nationalist, who is a commander, and who
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: is in this position where he's actually excited because he
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: does think that this is a holy war and this
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: is going to bring back Jesus.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: Well, it's certainly possible. I mean, America's got three hundred
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: and thirty million people, and we've got a lot of
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: people believe in a lot of things. But I can
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: assure you that we don't encourage people to talk like that.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: And again, all I can do is a Christian leader.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: I'll look into that story, certainly, But all I can
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: do is a Christian leader is talk about how I
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: think about questions of war and peace, which is is
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: we try to do the right thing we try to
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: figure out what it is that is consistent with Christ's
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: moral teaching, and we try to comport our foreign policy
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: with the cause of justice. And that's what we try
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: to do, recognizing it's always going to be imperfect. But
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: I don't think that we should ever have an attitude
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: towards war like this is a great thing. I'm gonna
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: grint and smile about that. All I'm saying is I'm
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: skeptical that anybody took that approach, because the media misrepresents everything.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: Do you think that this the way that you just
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: described it aligns with our campaign in Iran?
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that the goal is certainly good, which
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: is to prevent a ran from getting a nuclear weapon,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: and I think that there are obviously a lot of
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: questions about how best to achieve that. There's both a
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: short term and a long term piece of it. I
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: think the short term piece of it is effectively what's
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: already been done, which is you destroy the nuclear sites,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: and you destroy and eliminate the ability to rebuild the
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: nuclear sites. I think there's a longer term thing, which
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: is where like a lot of the debate is focused
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: on right now, which is that building a nuclear program
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: is hard, but it's not impossible, and it's expensive, but
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: it's actually not even that expensive if you look at
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, you could go on YouTube right now and
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: find out how to build an atomic mom So part
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: of our Iran policy, and this is where I get
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: frustrated with the people who say you should never negotiate
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: with Iran. Part of our Iran policy is like solving
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: the long term problem that if we could create the
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: sort of circumstance where Iran would commit not just to
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: not have a nuclear weapon right now, but over the
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: long term, to not try to rebuild that capacity. Like, yeah,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: I think that that is a good and valuable thing.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: If it was your call, would you have done exactly
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: the same thing.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the presidents said publicly that JD was
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: less enthusiastic about it. I think was the exact phrase
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: that he used. I mean, my attitude towards this man,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: as you know, is the vice president. I'm not a
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: public commentator. Like my job is to give the best
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: advice I can to the President the United States. I
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: think he's said a little bit about what that advice was.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: But once the president makes a decision, so long as
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: I think that it's you know, legal and ethical and
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: all that stuff, and I certainly think whether you agree
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: or disagree with it, what we've done has been legal.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: My attitude towards it is I try to make it
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: as successful as possible. And I've got friends, of course,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, you've expressed some skepticism of this.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: I've got a lot of friends, both in private and public,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: who've expressed skepticism of this, who say, well, this is terrible,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: we disagree with the decision, et cetera, et cetera. I'm
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: not a public commentator. My approach to this is not
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: to Monday morning quarterback a decision that was made three
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: months ago. My approach to it is to try to
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: make it as successful as possible, which is why I
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: poured my heart and soul into these negotiations, which is
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: why I've tried to make that goal a ran not
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: having a nuclear weapons something that's not true, both not
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: just now, but it's true in the long term. And
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: that's the way that I try to approach it.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: Going on with Iran, where it seems like the President
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: keeps saying that a deal has been reached, the negotiations
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: have been successful, and then it all falls apart and
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: we start bombing them again.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so how long do we have here? Because it's
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: like as much as so I have to explain a
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: couple of things in the background, so you sort of
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: fully appreciate people fully appreciate what's going on here. So
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: so number one, it's a bit of a simplification, but
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: you have two elements within the Iranian system. You have
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: and you sometimes hear hawkish Americans say this that they're
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: all crazy people they want to bring about you know,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: the twelthy mom and the apocalypse and all that stuff.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: There are people in Iran who believe that they're also pragmatists.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: You've got the crazy people and you've got the pragmatists. Okay,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: So when we struck this MoU, and really what the
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: MoU says, and I've it was misrepresented more than almost
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: anything that I've ever worked on in public life. What
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: it says is Iran is going to open the straight
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: up horn moves, the violence is going to stop, and
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: then we're going to negotiate to see if we can
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: come to a broader deal on the long term nuclear issue.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: That's what we wanted and what the Iranians wanted of course,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: was long term economic consanctions relief. Now here's the problem
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: with where we are right now. And I guess my
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: summary view Joe is that I, of course can't predict
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: the future. I don't know exactly where this is going
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: to go, but I think fundamentally we are on the
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: right trajectory. It's just going to be really messy and
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: there's going to be a lot of stops and starts.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: So what happens the first week after we'd signed the MoU,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: we get twenty million barrels a day of oil out
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: of the strait of horror moves. That's what it was
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: before the war. The price of oil comes way down,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: and there are elements the hardliners in the Iranian system
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: kind of freak out a little bit. They're like, oh shit,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: did we just give away our major leverage point. Screw
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: nuclear weapons. We just gave away this sow in this MoU.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: And so there was this kind of freak out in
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: their system. So they shot at a couple ships. We responded,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: I think that's entirely appropriate. Of course, if they're to
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: shoot at ships, we are going to shoot at the
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: people who are shooting at the ships, or we're going
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: to destroy the facilities that they're using to shoot at ships.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: So that happens, okay, and then the Ranian is like,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: oh no, to fine, you're right, we shouldn't have been
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: shooting at ships. So then they come back to the
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: table and there's a few more days of negotiation, and
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: then the phase that they're in right now is the
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: hardliners have really really reacted strongly to all the oil
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: that's coming out of the straight of horm moves and
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: they've basically said, we're going to try to shut this
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: thing down. We're scared about losing our leverage. Now the
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: pragmatists in their system are saying, this was a mistake,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: let's keep on talking. And again, do I know how
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: this is ultimately going to shake out? Of course I don't.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: But what we're doing is a delicate diplomatic dance where
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: we're using economic leverage points, we're using carrots and sticks,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: we're trying to talk to the pragmatists, and then of
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: course when they commit acts of violence, we're responding to it.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: And all those things are happening simultaneously to get us
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: on a better trajectory. Now that said, yes, right now
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: they're shooting right now. Last night they shot at some ships.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: But with all that said, is their nuclear program still destroyed?
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: Are the Straits not necessarily fully pre war traffic. But
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: are we getting enough oil and gas out of the
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: Strait of horror moves to prevent a worldwide energy crisis?
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: And all of these things are happening in the context
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: of the broader negotiation over the nuclear program. You never
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: know where this is ultimately going to end up, but
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: that's where we are. And then can I just say
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: one other thing about this, because there are people, you know,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: you see Mike PINNs, who's sort of a super hawk,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: my predecessor, who say this. There are people you know
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: who are super hawkish in the American system who have
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: attacked the deal and frankly, in some ways have tried
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: to derail the deal. And what I always say to
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: those people is, what is your proposal? What is your
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: actual argument? So just take the straight of Horn moves
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: like the narrowest. But in some ways the most important
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: part of this back and forth right now, straight of
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: hormone is a narrow waterway. To the extent you shut
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: it down, you shut down twenty five percent of the
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: world's energy supply. Okay, Joe, you could take one hundred
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars and go buy a bunch of drones on
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: the black market and post yourself on an island and
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: the straight of Horn moves are near it, and you
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: could fire drones of those ships. Okay, Now, what does
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: that mean? Some oil and gas is still going to
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: get out because some ships and some ship captains going
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: to say screw you. Now, the United States can help that, right.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: We can shoot down some of those drones, We can
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: shoot down some of those missiles, and so we can
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: facilitate the flow of traffic. But the people who are
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: like you cannot negotiate with the Uranians. The reason why
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: that's fundamentally idiotic is because so long as you have
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: some person who's willing to fire off a few cheap drones,
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: you're gonna have some ship captains who say, no, no, no,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: we're not willing to do this. So we got to
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: kind of use all tools at our disposal. The military
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: is one tool, but diplomacy is another tool. And I'm
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: very frustrated by the Americans and frankly by people in
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: other countries who are like you cannot negotiate with the Iranians. Well, then,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: what is your proposal to get people to stop shooting
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: at ships in the straight of horn Moves. You can
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: bomb them, you can take away their radar, you can
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: take away some of their drones and some of their missiles.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: But it's just too easy to fire at ships in
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: the straits. So you've got to actually be willing to
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: talk and to try to figure out the problem.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: What is their proposal? The people that think you shouldn't
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: negotiate with.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: Iron I think that their proposal is to bomb and
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: bomb and bomb. And the honest view Joe is that
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: they do not actually have a solution. If you actually
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: ask them what do you want us to do? What
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: is the goal that you're trying to achieve, they'll say
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: things like, well, just bomb them to oblivion. Okay, we
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: can do that. We can drop a lot of bombs,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: but what does that accomplish if there's still a crazy
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: person who's still unwilling to shoot a few drones of
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: the Strait of Hoorn Moves. What the President has done,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: I think, very very capably, is said we're going to
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: use militar Harry force in this situation when it's connected
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: to something we're trying to achieve. So if you shoot
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: at ships, we're going to shoot the facilities at which
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: you used to shoot at the ships. But we're not
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: just going to do something open ended indefinitely. We're not
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: just going to bomb and bomb and bomb. We're going
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: to try to use our military force as one of
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: the many tools that we have to solve the problem.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: And obviously, like I'm biased, but I think that's exactly
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: the right approach. I actually you have to read between
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: the lines a little bit, because if you look at
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: what Mike Pence or some of the conservative hawks, like
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: people who voted for US but have been very critical
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: of me, very critical of the administration, if you actually
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: look at what they're proposing, they just want the military
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: campaign to go on forever, and they can actually identify
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: what it is that they're trying to accomplish. None of
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: them can identify what it is they're trying to accomplish.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: And I read two things between the lines. I think
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: some of them want us to accomplish a complete change
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: in the government of Iran, to topple the clerics and
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: to replace that those clerics with somebody who's much friendlier.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: But like, look what is our experience with doing that.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: It's not good.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: It's not good, right, and so like, if the Iranian
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: people want to rise up and change their government, that's
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: up to them. But we're not going to send one
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand ground troops in order to accomplish
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: a change in a regime unless the people on the
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: ground themselves want to accomplish that outcome. Now, we're not
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: going to send the troops in regardless. But like to
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: propose sending in the troops, you're basically saying that the
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: US military should do the job for the Iranian people.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: We're not in that business anymore. We're just not. And
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: then I think a second outcome that people are whether
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: they're aware of it or not, is what I call
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: the Libya outcome. So, if you look at the end
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: result of our Libya policy after Gaddafi was killed by
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: the Obama administration, by the way, again a very stupid decision,
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: what happened. Libya basically turned into a failed state. You
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: had a refugee crisis, you had people pouring into Europe,
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: pouring into other parts of Asia, other parts of Africa.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: You had a lot of violence, a lot of terrorism
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: come from that. I do think that there are people
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: who would like that to be the outcome in Iran.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: But then I say, again, what is in our interest?
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: How is it in the United States's interest to have
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: ninety four million desperate people flooding into Europe, flooding into
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: the United States to have, you know, sort of the
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: terrorist infrastructure that can get established when you fan terrorists
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: all over the world. We've run this experiment before, and
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: so our policy right now, what we're trying to accomplish
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: is get the straits open, ensure the free flow of
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: oil and gas. Obviously, want to keep the Iranians from
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: having a nuclear weapons program, and using the tools of
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: diplomacy and military power to accomplish that.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: And Libya failing and the collapse of Libya is a
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: lot of what's fueled the migrant crisis in Europe as well.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: Correct exactly that in Syria, another failed state that was
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: created by bad Middle Eastern policy. So there is precedent
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: for the United States doing this. Every time that has happened,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: it's caused a refugee crisis, it's caused a spike in terrorism,
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: and it's also not incidentally to the moral considerations, it's
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: led to a lot of innocent civilian deaths.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: Now, what was the talk about. I think the number
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: was like three hundred billion dollars in concessions to Iran
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: to rebuild.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so this is another just bullshit argument that
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: the critics made against the deal. And again, like I
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: just to back up a little bit. This is my
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: own little hobby horse. But the coalition that Donald Trump
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: piloted to the twenty twenty four election campaign, it was
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: a landslide. We won seven states. It was historic. Nobody,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: certainly no Republican had actually led a coalition like that,
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: at least since the days of Ronald Reagan. So like
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: literally before I was alive. Okay, So Donald Trump wins
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: this great coalition, and look, it's got man, it's got hawks,
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: and it's got people who hate foreign wars. Okay, it's
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: got people like you and people like Tucker. It's also
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: got people like Mark Levin and others.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: I just accept that as a reality. That's part of
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: the coalition. I don't say that anybody is welcome or unwelcome.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: I say that if you're willing to sort of help us,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: you're gonna get a lot what you want. You don't
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: get everything that you want. What has really annoyed me
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: about the Hawkish side of this thing is they attack
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: any effort to negotiate, They attack the president, they attack
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: me personally. Donald Trump is betraying me. Wait a second,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: if you if you want to have like a hawkish
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: policy towards Iran, the idea that Donald Trump has betrayed
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: you because he's also trying to negotiate to get a
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: good outcome for the American people is crazy. And so
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: you've seen a lot of these people completely flip on him.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: And that brings me to the three or three hundred
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: billion dollar point. What we did with with the MoU
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: is we actually work not just with the Iranians, but
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: with the golf Arab states. What is the term MoU
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: What is memorandum of understanding? It's the basic It's the
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: basic structure that we set up for the negotiation. So
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: what happened here is okay. So people sort of think
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: of of the Middle East as like Iran versus Israel.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people do. There's also a
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: massive number of golf Golf states that are really important,
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: good allies to the United States. You know, they and
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: Israel don't always see eye to eye, but we're obviously
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 2: very close to both Israel and to the Golf States.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: And the Golf States actually came to us and said,
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: you know what, if the Iranians are willing, really willing
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: to change their behavior, we'd like to invest in rebuilding
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: their country. Now, whether they change their behavior is something
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: that's going to be determined over the long term, right,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: we want to see real changes. We want to see
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: them to stop funding terrorist organizations. And also, of course
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: none of that money comes from the United States. But
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: if RAN's biggest enemies in the region are saying we'd
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: like to invest if they've changed their behavior, would the
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: United States let us when we release the sanctions that
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: would make it possible for the UAE and Saudi Arabia
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: and other countries to invest in Iran. Our attitude was, well,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: isn't that a victory for us? If Iran's biggest enemies
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: see that they have changed themselves so much that they're
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: willing to invest in the Iranian economy, isn't that like
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: the definition of a win win? And then you had
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: all these people saying no, no, no, no, no, you can't
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: give them three hundred billion dollars. It's like, we're not
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: talking about giving them three hundred billion dollars. We're talking
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: about letting other countries invest in Iran. If Iran has
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: changed the way that it treats the Golfab countries. It's
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: fundamentally between them, meaning the Iranians and the golf Arab countries.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: So there's this line in the MoU that basically says
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: that if Iran meets all of its obligations, then we
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: will permit other countries to invest in Iran. That's it,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: and that like again, the Hawks attacked us and misrepresented
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: this and lied about it and said the Trump administration
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: is going to give the Iranians three hundred million dollars,
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: and it's totally fake. It's completely made up, and it
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: was done purely in order to politically tank the negotiation.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: So there's been this interesting dynamic here where as we've
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: been trying to negotiate, there have been these extraordinarily well
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: funded efforts to tank the negotiation, to prevent us from
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: reaching a deal, to change American public opinion, which, by
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: the way, if you look at the public opinion, people
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: love the idea of actually getting to a final resolution
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: on this thing Americans do not. They're not game for
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: long term, you know, open ended regime change wars in
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: the Middle East. They're okay with us using the military
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: to accomplish discrete objectives. They're not okay with open ended obligations.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: What do you think the motivation of the Hawks, says
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: Do you think this is by defense contractors or the influence?
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: What is what's the reason why they're so keen on
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: continuing to bomb.
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: I think with any big group of people you have,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: you know, you have a diversity of opinions. So so sure,
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that you know you have people who are
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: influenced by defense contractors. You know, there's a lot of
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: talk about how how much is the Israeli government influencing
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: American politics? And there are certainly certain people within the
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: Israeli government who hate the deal, and we see exact evidence.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: There was a Time story that came out yesterday that
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: basically there are certain influencers in America who are being
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: paid in order to attack the deal. I think some
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: of it it's just pure political ideology, right, it's foreign
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: policy perspectives that is that are much different from mine.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: They think that America should just that we can basically
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: you can wave a magic wand with a military and
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: accomplish whatever you want. And you know, it's it's not
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: that simple. You actually have to have a very clear objective.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: Military power can accomplish a clear objective, but you've got
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: to have that clear objective. You can't just say we're
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: going to bomb until something good happens. That never works.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: The United States has tried that before, so I think
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: it's a combination of things. But I definitely think you
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: have seen this very discreete extremely well funded campaign to
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: try to derail the negotiation and try to derail the deal.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: And you know there was again there's this time article
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: that came out yesterday. A friend send it to me.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: It's like worth reading because it lists a bunch of
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: people who have quite literally been paid by a former
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: Trump campaign person who was himself paid by certain elements
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: within the Israeli government. And those people are attacking me
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: viciously for quite literally trying to accomplish the negotiation objective
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: that the President's set for the country.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: So what is their position, like, are they're attacking you? How?
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's it's social media posts. It's either they're leaking
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: to reporters. They're attacking me obsessively saying that we should
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: not be negotiating with Iran, we should just keep the
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: military campaign going indefinitely, and that is their explicit position,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: and coming after me saying that, you know, people have
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: come out for me and say that I'm influenced by Qatar,
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: that I'm influenced by foreign governments, that you know, I
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: take my marching orders from Tucker Carlson, and there's just
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: so much bullshit out there when what I'm actually trying
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: to do is accomplish what the President of the United
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: States told me to accomplish, which is a settlement of
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: this that accomplishes our objectives. Iran doesn't have nuclear weapon,
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: we have the free flow of oil and gas. And
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: like I should be clear, you know, like I don't
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: actually mind. I don't mind.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: That the.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: You know, let's say certain elements of the Israeli government
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: want to criticize the deal or have disagreements about the deal.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: I don't even mind an effort to try to influence.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: You know, foreign governments try to influence the United States
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: all the time. You know, Israel does it, Other countries
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: do it. It's just sort of the nature of the Beast,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: what bothers me is actually when Americans allow, meaning American leadership,
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: allows that influence to affect their judgment and to affect
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: what they are advocating for. That's what really bothers me.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: People are always going to try to influence the United
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: States of America, whether they're allies of ours or whether
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: they are enemies of ours. But again, when I open
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: up the pages of Time Magazine and I see that
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: there's a literal foreign influence campaign being funded to tank
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: the very deal that I was pursuing. And oh, by
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: the way, many of the people who were receiving that
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: money were actually attacking me in completely dishonest ways.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: My response to that is, well, go to hell. I'm
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: going to do what I have to do for the
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: American people. I represent Americans first, and that's the way
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: that I've tried to do this job. And I you know, Joe,
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: the crazy thing is, I'm like, people realize this, I'm
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: actually in this. You know, there's this massive pro Israel
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: anti Israel debate in the United States of America. I'm
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: like the reasonable moderate And I think that's what so
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: many people don't realize is, you know, I've been accused
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: of being an anti Semite. I've been accused been accused
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: of for what reason, quite literally, for I've been accused
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: of trying to I guess some people say that I've
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: insulted the Jewish religion, which is insane, Like I like,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: I have a ton of respect for the Jewish religion.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you specifically, did you say, I don't know.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: I've never heard a good compelling argument for why I
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: am an anti Semite, even though I've been accused of
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: being an anti Semite by many people. But it's what always,
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: what I say to these guys is look at public opinion.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: Look at the way young Republicans versus publicans over the
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: age of sixty five approach this issue. Like right now,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: Israel is losing the public opinion battle in the United
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: States of America. It is a simple and obvious fact.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump has said that publicly. It's a simple and
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: do you think that is well? We finished this point, Okay.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: My attitude is towards this is Israel is an ally
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: like France or like the United Kingdom. We're gonna have
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: disagreements with them. We're gonna have agreements with them. There
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: are areas where we're going to have similar interests and
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: areas where interests are going to diverge. So my approach
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: to this is to say, you know what, when we're partnered, great,
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: let's work together. And we're not, let's just be honest
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: about it. And I for that, people attack me for
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: being an anti Semite or anti Israel, and they don't
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: see the writing on the wall that I'm actually just
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: the guy advocating for a normal relationship with a normal
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: country that's based around shared interest as opposed to based
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: around something else. So why is Israel? Why is Israel
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: losing American public opinion?
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: Well, the narrative is that Israel has a very disproportionate
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: effect on American politics.
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I see that narrative. I mean I actually think
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: that they Look do they try to influence American politics? Yes,
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: But like I said earlier, a lot of other countries.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: Do, I think to the extent that Israel does.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: Because some are better at it than others. I think
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: the Israels are definitely more effective at it than most,
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: But I wouldn't say that they're the only effective country
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: by any means that tries to influence American politics. I
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: just think you have to be self aware about it.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, why wouldn't you. It's a country of nine
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: million people. We have three hundred and thirty million people,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: And so of course they're going to try to persuade Americans.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: They're going to try to move Americans in one direction
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: or another. I think that's just the nature of the beast.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: But it's more than that. The concern is that they're
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: spying on American politicians, that they're there's concerns about funding,
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: there's concerns about influence. There's concerns about whether or not
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: politicians are whether they're aligned with Israel, or whether they're
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: aligned with the United States.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: First, well, there's certainly, like I definitely get those concerns,
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: But my sense is that the way that all foreign
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: influence works in the United States is people try to
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: manipulate American public opinion, and then from manipulating a public opinion,
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: they try to get the outcomes that they want. And
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: this thing is a very good example of this. So
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: you know, like we know, I'm telling you beyond a
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: reasonable doubt. We know that the negotiation strategy that the
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: President has asked us to pursue, and again with limitations
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: like when the Iranians hit ships, the President has been
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: willing to knock the hell out of the Iranians in response.
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: This is not just a negotiation. It's negotiation, it's military
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: as all these things. But I know, beyond a shadow
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: of a doubt that there have been people within the
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: Israeli government who are trying to like actually shift us
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: away from that policy because they want to continue the
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: military campaign. And by the way, like, there are people
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: within their government that I love, I have good relationships with,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: I hope, and I don't think that they're part of this.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the ambassador of Israel to the
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: United States I think is actually really good guy. Obviously
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: he cares about Israel first. I care about America first.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: But there are some people within their system, we know,
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: beyond a shadow of a doubt, who are manipulating and
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: trying to change American public opinion to keep the war
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: going on indefinitely, again, not towards any objective, but just indefinitely.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: So like, does it happen, Yes, But I guess what
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: I would say to the Americans who sort of see
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: this and are frustrated by it, My attitude would be
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: you should be frustrated at American leaders, who are you know,
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: persuaded by this, affected by this? Countries are going to
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: do what countries do. I really don't. It doesn't bother
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: me that Katar tries to influence the United States of
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: America and they do I like a lot of the Guitaris,
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: just like I like a lot of the Israelis. Doesn't
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: bother me in Israel tries to do this. It frankly
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: doesn't even bother me that Russia or some of the
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: other countries do it. It's just the nature of being
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 2: a political leader in twenty twenty six. What does bother
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: me is when those operations, those influence campaigns actually affect
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: American political judgment, because they shouldn't, because we should be
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: thinking what is in the best interest of the United
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: States of America.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: Do you think that Israel is affecting American political judgment?
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, I certainly think that there are a lot
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: of talking points, and there are a lot of arguments
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: that make their way into American political discourse. I think
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: there are a lot of social media campaigns that definitely
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: influence US Americans and affect Americans. Do I think that
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 2: it's been dispositive on any particular issue, Like, I think
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: that's a much more difficult question.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: Do you think that we would have started this war
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: in Iran without the influence of Israel?
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: I think the president completely separate from any influence from Israel,
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: believes very strongly and again I agree with this that
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: a Ran should not have a nuclear weapon, right way
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: to do things?
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: Bomb them in June, right, that was the initial attack, right.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: June of last year, miniammar Yeah.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: Right. Do you think he would have continued with the
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: most recent campaign if it wasn't for the influence of Israel? Yes,
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: I really I do.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I mean I think again, and I see this,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: and I see it even from people that are in
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: our coalition. And this would be my flip side to
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: the hawks who have been attacking me or the president
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: mercilessly of a negotiation. I would sort of turn this
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 2: back on some The doves are some of the realists
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: who have been attacking the president of United States. The doves,
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: those are the piece people. Doves. You never heard that phrase.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: I've heard hawks.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: I've heard hawks.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever heard doves hawks and pigeons
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: hawks And I don't know good right, So what what
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: I I think a lot of people I've heard this
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: argument is, is this idea that Donald Trump, you know,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: was sort of I've even heard people say he was
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: blackmailed into this. That's not true, dude, It's just it's
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: just not true. I've seen the decision making up close. Again,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: whether you agree or disagree with our negotiation, or whether
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: you agree or disagree with the decision to launch the
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: campaign epic fury to begin with, the idea that Donald
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: Trump is being like back blackmailed is crazy to me
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: because again, I see the way that he makes decisions.
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: I see the way that he processes this stuff, Like
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: the idea that he picks up the phone with anybody
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: and says, hey, like I'm going to take orders from you. No,
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: That's just not how Donald Trump operates.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: Can you understand though, why people would come to that conclusion,
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: especially because the of the Epstein files. What do you mean, Well,
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: the Epstein files were supposed to be released were and
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: there was a tremendous amount of resistance to those files
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: being released, and that discerned a lot of people because
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: if you're talking about very wealthy, powerful people that were
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: engaged in crimes.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: I see I see, you're basically saying, like there's a
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: the fear is that whatever's in the Epstein files was
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: used to blackmail like the administration into doing the ran thing.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: Or at the very least the people that were involved
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: in the Epstein files that didn't want them coming out
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: had undue influence.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: Well again, like say this with all candor, like we
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: absolutely screwed up the comms of the Epstein files, like
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: we just did. But do I think the reason we
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: screwed up the comms because we were trying to hide something? No?
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: I think the reason we screwed up the comms of
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: the Epstein files is one you know, Pam said, Pam
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: BONDI said, the client list is on my desk. Right.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: Well, they had binders, there were front.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: But those binders were largely documents that had already been released. Right,
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: So here's let me try, well what was let me try.
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: The purpose of that performative display of the Epstein files.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: And she was saying, there's tens of thousands of hours
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: of film.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the purpose of it was, but
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: I know that the effect of it was to make
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: people mistrust the entire effort. And I think what I
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: think was happening. Look, I know Pam, I like Pam.
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: I don't think there was anything malicious going on. I
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: think Pam was trying to respond to the political moment.
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: I think she overstated what we had and what we
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: didn't have. And I think that she, you know, got
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: roasted for it publicly by a lot of people, including me.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: Like you know, you and I have talked about this
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: a lot. I'm one of the og Epstein conspiracy theorists.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: I've probably gone down every single rabbit hole we could
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 2: go down most of them today. Look, the original sin
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: of the Epstein investigation, and obviously I'm biased here, but
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: it was not what Donald Trump and the administration did
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five. It was you have to go
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: back to two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight,
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: the original alex Acosta investigation of Jeffrey Epstein, where he
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 2: basically dropped the federal charges. I think Epstein ended up
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: getting prosecuted on some sort of local thing. But the
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: original warrant. You to the original warrant back in two
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: thousand and eight, What was he looking for? What was
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: he allowed to look for? What were they collecting? It
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: was not looking at a broader conspiracy. So that happens, Okay,
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: Epstein gets pinched. I think he goes to prisoner. Maybe
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: this is when he was on house arrest. But like
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: anything that existed from the eighties and nineties up to
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, anything that
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: existed that we didn't get back then was disappeared.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: So like when people say, has what you've seen on
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 2: the inside make you think that the you know that
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: Epstein never blackmailed people, or that Epstein never engage in
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 2: brought our sex trafficking. No, absolutely not. What I have seen,
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: and I've looked at most of the files is that
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: they're just wasn't dispositive evidence, And if that dispositive evidence
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: ever existed, it was probably destroyed after two thousand and six,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. Now, like again, in our defense, yes,
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: was there some you know, bitching and moaning, and was
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 2: there some back and forth, Yes, but we eventually collected
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: six million documents as part of the effort the president.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: People say the president was forced into releasing the documents.
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: Like again, the idea that Donald Trump could not have
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: killed that legislation, especially with the United States Senate, is
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: a joke. He absolutely could have killed it. What did
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: he do? He actually said, nope, We're going to release
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 2: these files. He thought, you know, he was annoyed by
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: the story. He was annoyed by the Democrats accusing him
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: of doing things bad. By the way, like, do I
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: think there is any I've never seen a single piece
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 2: of credible evidence that the president the United States engaged
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: in wrongdoing with minors. Ever, so, like when the president
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: says the hoax, that's what he's talking about. Is this
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: democratic idea that he somehow was a was a pedophile.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: It's absurd, there's no evidence for it. Now, the Epstein,
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: the Epstein you know law gets signed, we find six
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: million documents, we find out three million of them are
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: actually responsive, has something to do with the Epstein estate.
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: We release all of them, with the exception of a
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: few things that are like, you know, the courts have
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: said that we have to redact certain things, we can't
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 2: release certain files. But like, we did release all these files.
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: Did it take longer than it should have taken, Yes,
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 2: but we did release these files. And again the problem
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: here is not like anything that's in the files or
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: not in the files. The problem is if you go
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: back to the original investigation, it was designed in a
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: way that was way too narrow. If there was a
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: broader conspiracy, and you know, my view is that there
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: probably was. The evidence that existed in two thousand and
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: seven that was the opportunity to get.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: So when you say there probably was a broader conspiracy,
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: what exactly you're saying?
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 2: I think there are a few different options. I mean, look, man,
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 2: I like you could you know, I could literally do
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 2: two episodes about this. I have gone on down to
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 2: every rabbit hole. There's this funny New York Times story
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: that's somewhat true, somewhat false, but where Susie Wiles, the
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: White House Chief of Staff, says, well, we know JD's
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: a conspiracy theorist on this, Like I am, actually I've
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 2: I've gone down every rabbit hole here. Look, so there's
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 2: the theory that whether it was American intel or foreign intel,
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: that Epstein was sort of using, Epstein was using sort
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: of the sex ring to blackmail and powerful people. There's
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: that piece of it. You know, I think there's a
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: separate conspiracy that hasn't gotten covered as much, which is
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: that Epstein actually Okay, if you go back to the
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: original Epstein guy was Les Wexner, Okay, who Columbus, Ohio
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: was the wealthiest person in Ohio maybe still is the
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 2: wealthiest person in the state of Ohio. The thing that
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: everybody in Columbus I lived there for a time knew
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 2: about the Westerner Epstein relationship is that Epstein was his
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: tax guy. That Epstein was like the genius at identifying
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 2: weird tax strategies that would allow you to not have
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 2: to pay taxes. But if you were being a little skeptical,
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 2: would also say that it would allow Epstein to either
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: blackmail people or to have a separate nexus of influence
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 2: and control on rich and powerful people. And so I
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: think there's an underreported, under explored story of was Epstein
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: like doing a lot of tax stuff that was not
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: on the up and up, and is that one way
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: in which he gained blackmails And it's not opposite of
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: the sexual blackmail story, but in some ways it's it's, uh,
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: you know, you could imagine both things being true. I
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: also just think there's an element of he was a scumbag.
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: He was a very sick person. He built relationships with
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: a lot of other rich and powerful people who just
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: didn't have any real moral judgment about the fact that
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: guy was obviously a scumbag. And again to go back
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 2: to defending Donald Trump. I know people don't want to
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: hear this these days, but who was the guy people
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: say Donald Trump's blackmailed by Jeffrey Epstein? Who was the
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: guy who narked on Epstein to the Palm Beach police.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: That's in the Epstein files. It was Donald Trump.
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: It's just it's obvious that Epstein was sick.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, But if people want to say we mishandled the
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 2: Epstein release, guilty, we did missay, especially the communications.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: Of what do you think should have been done?
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: I think that we should have just dropped everything at
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: the very beginning, and like, obviously it takes a little
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: time to review the stuff, to find the stuff, to
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: redact things where you have victims and so forth, But
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: we should have just done it as quickly as possible.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: But some of the stuff that was redacted, some of
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: the names that were redacted and weren't victims.
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I've looked into this, and my understanding of this,
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: having looked at a lot of this but not all
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: of it, is that it is sometimes hard to draw
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: a distinction between victim and co conspirator. And like, let
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: me highlight this in a very sort of obvious way. Rocanna,
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 2: who's been one of the most one of the loudest
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 2: voices on the Epstein file, well, he became very loud
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: on the Epstein files the minute Donald Trump became president
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 2: didn't seem to care about it. During the Biden administration,
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: he actually brought one of the Epstein victims I think,
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: to the State of the Union last year, or maybe
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: it was the year before last. Well, like that victim
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: and I'm not accusing, I'm not saying she wasn't a victim.
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know anything about it her particular case. She
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: was also listed as a co conspirator in some of
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: these documents. Right, So there's an idea that some of
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 2: the people who were engaged in the sex trafficking were
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: also you know, facilitating it as.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: Well, so they were incentivized to get more girls.
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but yes, that's right. But the idea is that
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: it's it's hard to sort of it's sometimes a little
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: bit of a gray area between you know, some of
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: the people who were alleged victims were also alleged co conspirators,
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: and so what DOJ tried to do was kind of
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: make that judgment as best they could and release as
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: much as possible.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: But it's clear that he was trying to get in
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: contact with people that he felt were influential. It was
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: clear that he was trying to get people to get
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: together on the island and meet at parties. So there
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: was something he was doing where he was trying to
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 1: either influence people or compromise people.
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: So it's not there's some sort of an operation that was.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: If there is a story there, and you know, I
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 2: will go to my deathbed believing there's a story there,
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 2: but I can't prove it. And I promise you there's
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: not some document that at least I'm hiding that allows
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: us to prove exactly what was going on in He.
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: Was also trying to get scientists, and this is one
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: of the reasons supported Well he got that.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, so branch in New Mexico. So a friend of
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: mine has this element. Sorry, I should step back. Conspiracy theories.
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: One of the ways you discredit conspiracy theory. I thought
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: about this a lot, is to try to hide it.
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: Another way you discredit conspiracy theory is by flooding the zone.
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: So one of the things I've tried to do when
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: I look at all this stuff is to try to
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: understand sort of where it fits in, and you know,
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: try to separate the real from the fake. But one
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 2: really interesting element of the whole Jeffrey Epstein saga. Okay,
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: so he dies in twenty nineteen, right, this is at
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: the very end of the first Trump administration. His death
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: coincides very very closely. This is not my observation. This
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 2: is a friend, but I don't want to reveal confidences
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: here where it coincides very closely with the end of
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: what you might call the era of censorship in academia.
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: So back in twenty nineteen twenty twenty, we reached sort
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: of peak academic censorship, where people wouldn't publish a medical
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: study because it might have sort of disparate impact racial undertones,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: or people were getting fired from academia for not doing
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: land acknowledgment stuff like that. Okay, I'm not saying that
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: stuff has completely gone away. But Epstein, we know was
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: funding a ton of scientists. By the way, where did
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: his money come from? It was funding a ton of scientists.
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 2: But like when he died, it's almost like the era
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 2: of censorship started to break because he wasn't just he
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: was also planned to do a lot of in academy,
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: but also you know, he's plugged into the social media companies,
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 2: like this is a dude who knew everybody. He knew everybody.
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: So look, so.
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: Why don't come from.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: Well from given part of it is suspect tax advice
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: and setting up tax schemes for a lot of very
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: very rich people, right.
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: But why was to influence academia and what was the purpose?
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that question. I mean
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: I have theories. There's there's of course.
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: The well, most people think he was Masad.
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Massad or Cia or some other deep state, whether
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: in America or Israel or another country or both. You know,
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: look was he He clearly had connections to the upper
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 2: the highest levels of American intelligence. He clearly had connections
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: to the highest levels of Israeli intelligence. In fact, one
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 2: of the interesting stories, one of the interesting things the
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: Epstein Saga reveals about, and I try to make this
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 2: point is one of the reason why I'm always careful
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: and I say, there are some elements within the Israeli
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 2: government who don't like our peace process because there are
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of elements within the Israeli government that actually
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: do like our peast process. They recognize that this indefinite
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: campaign is not good for them either. And the Epstein
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 2: thing is interesting because, as much as I know, you know,
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 2: Prime Minister nat Yaho not a particularly popular person in
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: the United States of America right now, Epstein seemed to
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: be connected to the elements of the Israeli deep state
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 2: that were left of center. Like I've always found that fascinating.
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like he was super connected to the right
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: of center of Israeli politics America. He was connected across
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: the board. Like he had Republican friends, he had Democratic friends.
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 2: He had much deeper connections to the Israeli left of
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: center than right of center. I don't know what that means.
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: I've always hanging out with Steve Bannon en Noam Chomsky exactly.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: He had Again in America, he had friends across the
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 2: political spectrum in a way he didn't necessarily have in Israel.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: I had one of my guests try to get made
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: to made them really yeah when twenty seventeen, See, that's.
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: Crazy to me because that point he had already gone
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: down for at least one like sex abuse thing that.
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: Was my possession. I'll show you the emails. Okay, it's
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 1: kind they're kind of funny, which actually read them on stage.
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: You want to say, Okay, fine, people can find it.
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to have the guys already ruined. Sure,
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: but but it's I googled it and I'm like, what
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: the fuck are you talking about?
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 2: See, but this goes back to my original But this.
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 1: Is part of what he was doing, right. He wanted
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: to get influential people.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: But you go back to the original two thousand and
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 2: seven warrant on Jeffrey Epstein. All of the really crazy
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 2: shit happened from the nineties to two thousand and seven.
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: That's when he was at the peak of his power.
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: That's when he hadn't yet gone down on a sex
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: abuse scandal. Like, I mean, to your point, right, even
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 2: if you have some scumbags who were willing to introduce
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: them to Joe Rogan in twenty seventeen, there are a
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: lot of Joe Rogan's are at least some who are going
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: to say, wait a second, I'm gonna google this guy.
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: But a lot did, a lot that was really crazy,
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: a lot didn't. But some did, and my point is
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: that would limit his influence. But if you go back
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: to like the nineteen nineties, the early two thousands, that
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 2: is the stuff I think that is like the black
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 2: hole of the Epstein saga. We don't have nearly enough
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: from that era. And because it was destroyed, I think
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: we had a prosecution that explicitly was so narrow that
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: whatever existed would not have even been caught.
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: Up right, So they were specifically going after him for
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: underage sex, and they did the picture of the operation.
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: They didn't even try to They didn't even try to.
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: Well, that was one of the things about the prosecutor
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: was told that he was above their pay grade. I
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: mean it was one of the things that.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: He said he was like CIA or something.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, he said, I was told he was intelligence.
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: And yes, I've asked where they're like or their docus
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: means connecting Jeffrey Epstein directly to our intelligence agencies or
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 2: anybody else's And the answer is no. But if that
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 2: shit existed, it wouldn't exist. In twenty twenty.
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: Six, what is it like being the vice president? Like
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: how much access do you have to information?
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: Because so I'll give you another conspiracy so I have
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: like effectively unlimited.
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: Access to information unlimited.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: But I think that the one of the things that
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: I've learned about the job is it's you're doing so
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: much on the day to day, Like you're calling Senators
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: and trying to get them to pass a piece of legislation.
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: You're meeting with staff about what should go in the
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: housing bill. You're negotiating with the Iranians or the Cutteries
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 2: or the Israelis about something that's going on in the
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 2: Middle East, and a lot of it like the UFO thing.
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 2: Like I've said that I'm gonna like I'm going to
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: look into the UFO thing, and I've been saying that
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: for a year and a half and I haven't done
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: it yet because I haven't had the time. And so
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: some of this is like you just have to have
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 2: the time to actually punched through the walls and to
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 2: like go to the gatekeepers and say you have to
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: open up that gate because I'm the vice president, and
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: some of it is just hard to actually get to
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: because I don't have the time to sort of focus
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: on that one issue for any particular period of time.
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: So the answer is, you have unlimited access to information.
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 2: The constraint is not people tell me no. The constraint
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 2: is you're just so busy doing other shit.
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: The UFO thing, I think would be something that I
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: would want to pursue, Yes, I mean just for my
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 1: own personal information. I would want to know what is
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 1: going on. Correct. So the question is are these special
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: access programs that are above top secret and that this
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: is our own stuff or is this something that's far
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: more bizarre and something that is interdimensional from another planet whatever?
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 2: Fill in the black gay is it foreign? And if
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 2: it's foreign, is it six thousand miles away or like
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 2: six thousand lives years away?
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 2: Yes? Right? And that is that is I will answer
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 2: that question eventually, really, yes, I'll get to the bottom
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: How how are you going to have the time to
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: do that? Like? And what will.
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: Would be Eventually I'll have like a few weeks where
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 2: I could just sit down and worry about that problem.
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 1: You said something that thought, here's an interesting thing though,
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: I will say that is one of those conspiracy theories.
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: That there are a lot of people in our government
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 2: who are interested in this, meaning our current political leadership
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 2: who are interested in this question. And it has it
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 2: like nothing has really happened yet, which makes me a
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 2: little bit less interested in it because there are a
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: lot of people with access to those files and access
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 2: to that information, and nothing has changed since Biden left office,
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 2: which which makes me think other people have looked into
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 2: it and they just haven't necessarily found something. But anyway,
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 2: I eventually, I promise you, I'm gonna like sit down
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: and spend a couple of weeks trying to figure out
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 2: what's in these files. I actually haven't done it yet.
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: You said something that I thought was very odd. Okay,
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: you said that you thought that they were Demonskay.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, I did say that.
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: What did you mean by that?
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I, first of all, they're not just in Christianity,
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 2: but in a number of world religions. There are a
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: number of like, you know, mystical things that happened, extra dimensional,
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: extra like. I'm not one of these people who's like
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 2: a hyper rationalist, like I think that there are things
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 2: happening in the world that we're not always seeing. I
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 2: you know, I believe in God. I think that there
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 2: is a kind of what's what's the word I'm looking for,
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 2: not extra real, supernatural, supernatural. There are supernatural things that
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 2: are happening. Okay, so if you look historically at you know,
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 2: things that are similar to the alien phenomenon, where oh,
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: some like strange being it kind of looks like a
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 2: human being but doesn't look like it's not human, and
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 2: it shows a particular interest in human beings, and then
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: it takes the human beings and you know, like does
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: weird experiments on them. I think my argument is that's
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: either bullshit, right, You're either talking to a crazy person,
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 2: which I don't like. I'm not saying just because I
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: believe in the supernatural, doesn't believe me, and I believe
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 2: in everything supernatural. But if we're talking about an extra
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 2: terrestrial being that is human like but not human, that
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: contains effectively infinite powers and it's torturing human beings, you
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 2: can call it an alien if you want. But I
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 2: think there's a lot of historical precedent to call out
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: a demon.
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: Well, a lot of these stories, in these accounts, we
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: have one right now, demonic Oster. Yeah, that's the mothership logo.
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: A lot of these accounts are not of beings being
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: or people being tortured. They're people that are being exposed
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: to information, like the Travis Walton stories, a very famous case.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: Read about it on the way back.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: Though. This guy right here, I got a Travis. He's
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: one of the most famous UFO abduction stories. There was
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: a movie with D. B. Cooper in the UH.
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: And like, what is the information that they gave Travis
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 2: Walten was D B.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 1: Cooper? The that was the T. B. Sweeney. D B.
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: Cooper was the guy who stole the money and jumped
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 1: out of the plane fire in the sky.
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 2: There's a movie, of course, I remember this movie. I
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 2: don't think I ever saw it.
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: Though, nineteen ninety three. Good movie, but sensational. And Travis
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: Walton says, they made a bunch of shit up and
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 1: that's not what happened. But the story was that he
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: was a logger in Arizona and he was leaving a job.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: They were all together in a truck and the these
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: loggers saw this thing, this light land in this forest,
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: and they went to go investigate. He jumps out of
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: the truck and he gets close to it and he's
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: hit by some beam of light and knocked to the ground.
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: They take off and then they realized, like, we've got
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: to go back. We don't know what's going on. They
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: turned around, they go back to get him. They freaked
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: out and panicked. They go back to get him. He's gone.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: The police interview them. They think that they killed him.
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: They they you know, there's an investigation. Five days later,
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: he shows up wearing the same clothes, and he has
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: this crazy story and he had been in this spaceship
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: for five days, is what he said, and that they
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: had fixed him, they healed him, and then they had
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: communicated with him telepathically, and he had had this but
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 1: very bizarre encounter with these beings that aren't from here,
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: or if they are from here, they're very different than us.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, So I guess my response to that would be
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 2: extra powerful beings in this case communicating telepathically helping people.
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 2: Sounds like an angel. So I guess he's let me
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 2: make the Like the Steelman version of my recommend it's that, Okay,
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 2: my dog, there's no real difference between me and God.
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 2: To my dog, I can literally walk into a room
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: and turn the light on. I can make food appear instantaneously.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: I can transport myself across time and space very very rapidly.
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 2: If you're a human being with intelligence but not supernatural intelligence,
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: I guess my point is again, this could all be bullshit,
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 2: This could all be fake. That's a possibility. But if
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 2: it's real, is there really a meaningful difference between an
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 2: angel or a demon and a space alien with super technology?
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: Just to our perception, they would largely just look like
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 2: the same thing.
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 1: I think we're capable of nuance, and we're capable of
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: understanding that human beings are far more complex and evolved
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: than chimpanzees. And we could imagine a world where if
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 1: we don't blow ourselves up, and there's not a nuclear
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: bomb and there's not a we don't get hit by
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: an asteroid, if we live another million years, that we
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 1: would have technology that's indistinguishable from magic.
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 2: Right exactly, That's right.
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 1: That does I mean we could share demons. It just
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: means they're hyper evolved advanced civilizations from somewhere else.
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 2: And what I'm saying is the perception of those beings
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: to a more simple intelligence. Sure, there's not a meaningful
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 2: there's not a meaningful difference. So you're you're asking, you're
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 2: like talking about what it is that these things actually are.
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 2: And I guess what I'm talking about is how would
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 2: a human being with my level of intelligence or your
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 2: level of intelligence in twenty twenty six understand what's going on.
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 1: Right, But from a biblical perspective, there's a very big
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 1: difference between a demon and a hyper intelligent being from
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: somewhere else.
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, a demon or a hyper intelligent.
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: If demons are real, if there really are dark forces
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: in the universe, and they're disembodied dark forces, these things
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: that exist, these yes, and then there's also powerful light
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: forces in the universe that they don't have to be
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 1: mutually exclusive to the concept of hyper intelligent other species
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: when you're looking at an insanely vast universe.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 2: I don't think they have to be. But I think
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 2: that it is interesting to me that for most of
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 2: human history we would have understood supernatural, hyper powerful, hyper
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 2: knowledgeable things as sort of celestial or we would.
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 1: Have thought of a cell phone as being sorcery. I mean,
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: it doesn't That doesn't mean it is sorcery. Maybe it's not.
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 1: It was just technology. I just that argument doesn't make
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: any sense to me. Well, and this is not discounting
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 1: the possibility of demons or discounting the possibility of angels.
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 2: Well, I guess I understand your point. Conceptually, I don't
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 2: actually disagree with it. So I don't think we're saying
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: something different that you know, metaphysically, there could be two
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 2: separate things going on. There could be celestial there could
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: be extra Earth outside of Earth space aliens, and there
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 2: could also be angels and demons could be too totally
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 2: separate things. One could be true and not the other.
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 2: That's I totally concede and agree with that point. I
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 2: guess what I'm saying is it's a distinction that is
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 2: conceptually interesting to me. But if a space alien with
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 2: like superhuman technology comes to the Earth and has malicious intent,
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know how I'm supposed to tell the difference
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 2: between that and demon.
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: If they have malicious intent. But I mean, isn't that
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 1: also the case with visiting people? Right? Like you could
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 1: have a country and you get visited by the Peace
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 1: Corps or you get visited by pirates. Yeah, you know,
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 1: and are the pirates demons as the Peace Corps angels? No?
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 2: But I think we're talking about something much different.
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: Are we Are we talking about something different or are we
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: talking about a hyper advanced version of.
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 2: That we're talking about? I mean, as I understand it,
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 2: we're talking about things that exist outside the United States, sorry,
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 2: outside of the Earth, okay, and two different types of
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 2: beings that could exist outside of it. I mean, okay, maybe.
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of people you know who thinks that they're.
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 2: They're here is Atlantis or there's something else that.
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 1: They're there somehow or another. They are survivors of a
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 1: long gone civilization that live under the ocean. Yeah, it's
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: just as kooky here.
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 2: Here's what I would put it. Is like there's also
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 2: a difference between a demon and a ghost. Right, these
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 2: things are two very different conceptual things. But if I'm
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 2: a human being and I meet a malicious ghost, maybe
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 2: I think it's a demon. And maybe all I'm saying
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 2: is maybe there's some there's some point at which the
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 2: conceptually interesting this is such a weird conversation, at which
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 2: point the conceptually interesting discussion of what it is is
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 2: separate from how it appears to me and how I'm
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 2: going to understand it as a human being in my
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 2: particular social and cultural context in twenty twenty six. But
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 2: if you're looking for me to concede the point that
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 2: there is something different or could be something different between
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 2: an angel, a demon, a space alien, a supernatural, but
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 2: non any of those other things beings. Yes, I can
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 2: see that.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the question is what does what do these special
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 1: access programs like, what is the information that's available like
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 1: Rush and a lot of these other people that there
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: have been crash retrieval programs.
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, and so I've talked today before. I think I
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 2: called him actually after it was on your podcast. So
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 2: there's like the crash retrieval stuff of whether that's that's
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 2: real or not, whereas it et cetera. There's the videos, right,
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 2: there are all of these videos, some of which have
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 2: been released and declassified that seem to me show some
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 2: pretty weird stuff. And then there might be other pieces
• 2:04:52
  Speaker 2: of evidence as well. I'm not saying there is or is,
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 2: and I just don't know. I try to keep an
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 2: open mind about this stuff. All I'm saying is I'm
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: fascinated by it. I don't have like some secret sauce,
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: at least not yet that tells me what's true and
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 2: what's false. I'm just saying this is something that I'm
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 2: interested in, but it doesn't it's because it's it's like
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: anything in life, where do I have to figure this
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: out this week?
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 1: No?
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to do the things that I have to,
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 2: like negotiate with the Uranians and try to get this
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: bill passed.
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 1: So let's imagine a world where the Iranian negotiations go swimmingly.
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 1: Everything's gone, all these Gulf Arab states decide, Hey, let's
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 1: invest money and Iran let's change hearts and minds. Who okay,
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: avoided a gigantic apocalyptic scenario? What could be done? Like
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 1: if we have information, well, who has this information? And
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 1: why are they holding onto this information? And what do
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 1: you know? The how put off story? So how put off?
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: We used to work for NASA said that he was
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 1: brought in during the Bush administration where they were going
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 1: they were proposing disclosure, and they were saying, this is
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 1: what they were saying. They're saying, we have biological remains
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: and we have physical crafts. We're proposing disclosure. And they
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 1: brought in a bunch of a bunch of thought leaders,
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 1: different disciplines, different schools of thought, and they said, I
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: want you to compile a list of pros and cons
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: and put a numerical value on how this is going
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: to affect society, How's this going to affect religion? How's
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: this going to affect government, how's this going to affect economy?
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 1: All these different things, And when they compiled this list,
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: every one of them had more in the con than
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: in the pro and they decided against disclosure because of that. Now,
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 1: if that's the case, what are we talking about, Like,
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 1: who who has this information? And what is this information?
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, if that wasn't just a thought experiment, if
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 1: they weren't really just fucking with these people, which I
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 1: don't understand why they would do that, but let's assume
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: what is known and why would they prevent that information
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 1: from getting out?
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 2: Well, that's that's a big if.
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 1: Have you seen the movie The Age of Disclosure?
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 2: I'm not okay.
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: Well, a lot of people, including intelligence officers, different people
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 1: in the government, are in this documentary and one of
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 1: the things that they're saying is part of the problem
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 1: with all this is if they have had these programs
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 1: going on for so long, that means they've been misappropriating
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 1: funds and they've been lying to Congress. So all these
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 1: people that were involved in the program, Solul Alizondo and
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 1: all these other people have said, look, what we're gonna
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 1: need is mass amnesty for people that are involved in
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 1: this it's the only way you're ever really going to
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 1: get to the bottom of it. So from what that is,
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 1: if you've got unlimited money and you've got misappropriation of
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 1: funds and lying to Congress, I garon te some of
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: that money has gone to places and shit like it does.
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like it's always very hard to engage in
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 2: these like super generic, super general I should say hypotheticals,
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 2: because you know, like, yeah, if if look, we've got
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 2: remains of space aliens and we're hiding them, then there
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 2: are a million other sort of there are a million
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 2: possibilities for that. What would explain it, how it would
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 2: have happened. I am skeptical that's true. And the reason
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 2: I'm skeptical that it's true that we have the physical
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 2: remains is not because I don't think that's something that
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 2: like is physically possible or that the government, like the
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 2: government's willing to do and able to do a lot
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 2: of a lot of crazy stuff in our history and
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 2: the history of all governments. I am skeptical of the competence.
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 2: She made this point to Dave when we talked. I
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 2: think he's a very interesting guy, so I don't mean
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 2: to insult him. Or sad disagree with him about everything.
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 2: But I made this point to Dave when we talked.
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 2: It's like, if we have literal space alien remains in
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 2: the custody of the United States government, there is no
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 2: way that that wouldn't get lead, that wouldn't leak out
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 2: in some way.
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 1: Well, it has leaked out anecdotally.
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 2: Well that's I guess that's the counter argument.
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 1: But I think you know history.
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 2: But the next week, no, I want to hear that.
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 2: But like with cell phones in every way that we have,
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: like it's plausibly you could hide that in an era
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 2: where you have to have a giant camera the size
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 2: of these antlers in order to take a photo of something.
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 2: But dude, I can take you know, like you have
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: cameras now that are like literally this tiny. That's the
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 2: part that I'm skeptical of that we're hiding them.
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 1: Let me push back that, because you know that if
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 1: you have any sort of top secret, like if you
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 1: go into a skiff, like, there's no way you're bringing
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 1: cameras in there. Okay, you're you're Look when I came
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 1: here to this podcast studio, they had a dog and
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 1: it's studio my trunk. Yeah, Okay, I'm gonna blow up
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 1: my own studio.
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but okay, so you know what I'm saying. But
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 2: the okay, the counter argument though, is they check that
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 2: stuff on you. They don't check that stuff on everybody.
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: Everybody here.
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 2: They did everybody here. Yeah, but all you play you
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 2: need is one official with like the highest security clearance. Now, okay,
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 2: you're right, certain devices like give iminate signals that they
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 2: can pick upon, Bluetooth and all that shit.
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 1: But like, but to have access to go into a
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 1: room where they have these things and know they did
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 1: have these things, I guarantee you they're gonna make sure
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 1: no one's got anything They could easily scan you to
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 1: make sure that you don't have any kind of electronics,
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 1: any kind of camera, any kind of recording device. That's
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 1: not hard. I mean, especially if you've got something squirreled
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 1: away an area fifty.
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 2: In the next two and a half years, are going
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 2: to run this experiment because I got two and a
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 2: half more years as VP, and I swear to you,
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 2: if there are little green men like body remains, well,
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to I'm not gonna text to you,
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna try to smuggle a camera and get a
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 2: photo of these things.
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 1: Well, how would you, the vice president of the United
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: States of America, have to have a camera smuggled in
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 1: to do that?
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 2: Well maybe I wouldn't, but again, I've seen.
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 1: You think that you have authority. It's like, look, let's
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 1: imagine you find out that right Powderson Air Force Base,
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 1: they have a secure facility somewhere. Maybe it's not there,
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 1: maybe it's yeah, maybe they've kept it under wraps. Maybe
• 2:11:35
  Speaker 1: it's in the mountain somewhere. And you find out that
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 1: this thing exists. Do you think it's as simple as
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 1: you could just go out and tell everybody, or do
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 1: you think that you get briefed on the implications of
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 1: what would happen if you disclosed all this information.
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 2: I would definitely get briefed on the implications.
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 1: And they would probably tell you, Hey, you have to
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 1: bullshit people.
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but dude, I'm not You're not gonna bullshit. Well, look,
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 2: I have I have many skills as a politician in
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 2: some vices, but like one of them is I'm just
• 2:12:05
  Speaker 2: not a good liar.
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 1: Well, then they're not going to show it to you.
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: You just fucked up. You just fucked up on this
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: podcast by saying that the ladies on the view that's
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 1: that's that's right, the intellectual vie.
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 2: They show it to the lazy of the view. It
• 2:12:22
  Speaker 2: will be said two hours two hours later. Anyway, I
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 2: am give.
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 1: This show it to them, just so that no one
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 1: will believe it.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 2: I do want to look into this stuff. I'm just
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 2: telling you I have not yet seen the evidence that
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 2: we have certainly extraterrestrial remains, but there's a lot of
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 2: stuff before extrastrial remains. It's also interesting, like the flight patterns,
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 2: and some of these videos are super weird.
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 1: Well, the Commander David Fravor stuff is bananas. It goes
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 1: from fifty thousand feet above sea level to sea level
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: and look acond to what.
• 2:12:51
  Speaker 2: People say, right like, because one of the arguments I've heard,
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 2: for example, is you know, could this just be a
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 2: visual oar on the camera or something like that. Okay,
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 2: that that's sounds to be plausible. I'm not an expert
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 2: in cameras. But then what the pilots their reaction to it.
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 2: It's not like they're looking at a visual or on
• 2:13:08
  Speaker 2: a camera. It's like they're looking at something else. That's
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 2: really really weird and difficult to explain, given what they
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 2: know about you know, physics and aeronautical engineering, et cetera.
• 2:13:16
  Speaker 2: So anyway, I am fascinated by this, but I just
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 2: don't want to tell people like, oh, I've uncovered the
• 2:13:22
  Speaker 2: truth or I haven't because I haven't looked at it yet.
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 1: Right, well, I would if I was you. That would
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 1: be the first thing I did a storm right in there.
• 2:13:29
  Speaker 2: And let's talk about tax policy.
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 1: Is that you want to talk about?
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 2: No, we can talk about tax boics way more interesting.
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 1: I would want to know. I mean, I think the
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 1: world wants to know. I think it would fundamentally change
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 1: our understanding of what it means to be a living organ.
• 2:13:44
  Speaker 2: Well, okay, what do you think? Like, what is your
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 2: at You've you know more about this than I do.
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 1: I don't think we're alone, but okay, you're alone. I
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 1: just don't understand what it is.
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know if it's you don't have like
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 2: a strong view about what it is.
• 2:13:59
  Speaker 1: You're just I don't have any injury. I don't have
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 1: any data, right, so I don't have any proof. So
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 1: I believe Commander David Fraver. I believe Ryan Graves. He
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 1: was a fighter pilot that said that when they upgraded
• 2:14:12
  Speaker 1: their their equipment on these fighter jets in twenty fourteen,
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden they started seeing these things that
• 2:14:20
  Speaker 1: were staying completely motionless at one hundred and twenty nine
• 2:14:23
  Speaker 1: wins and there were a cube inside of a sphere,
• 2:14:28
  Speaker 1: a black cube inside of some sort.
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 2: Of Yeah, well, okay, so this is a I know
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 2: you've talked to Eric Weinstein, yes, and you know I
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 2: haven't talked about this lately. But one of the things
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 2: that Eric sort of kind of persuaded me.
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 1: Of a couple of years ago was it's Weinstein. They
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 1: get very sensitive.
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, oh got it, Eric Weinstein, good thought. Speaking of pedophiles.
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 1: I was a pedophile. He was.
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 2: He had many sins, but not that one.
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 1: Cannie own says he's innocent old sing okay or not
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 1: not guilty of everything that they said.
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 2: He was, so okay. Eric Weinstein, this probably three or
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 2: four years ago, persuades me of this. Actually, it's an
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 2: interesting theory. His argument is in the same way that
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 2: I would say, what's the difference between an extraterrestrial and
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 2: an angel or a demon depending on its intentions from
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 2: the perspective of a human in twenty twenty six, his
• 2:15:25
  Speaker 2: argument would be, what's the difference between a space alien
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 2: and a human being? But just a human being with
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 2: super advanced technology, right, And so I don't know if
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 2: this is still his view, but he kind of was.
• 2:15:37
  Speaker 2: He was like, let's say you had human beings who
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 2: just were super scientifically advanced. Like what we know of
• 2:15:46
  Speaker 2: the laws of physics as I understand it is that
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 2: light speed is sort of the upper limit of what
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 2: one of our space ships could travel. You can't go
• 2:15:54
  Speaker 2: any faster than the speed of light. Well, that's a
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 2: problem because everything else that could support of extraterrestrial life
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 2: is much is many, many, many many light years away. Okay,
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 2: So his argument to me again back in the day
• 2:16:07
  Speaker 2: was if you figured out a new physics and the
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 2: same way that you had an understanding shift from Newtonian
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 2: physics to Einsteinian physics, if you have a new understanding
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 2: of physics that allows you to travel much faster than
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 2: the speed of light, you could just have human beings
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 2: either from a different planet or maybe they went to
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 2: Mars and started their own civilization, and then that got
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 2: old and they at this point there are many millions
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 2: of light years away, but they can move through space
• 2:16:33
  Speaker 2: and time in a way that is quite literally like
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 2: divine from our perspective, or space aliens, but they're just
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 2: human beings.
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 1: It could be human beings from the future.
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 2: If time travel is possible.
• 2:16:46
  Speaker 1: But also it also we know that life exists on Earth.
• 2:16:50
  Speaker 1: So if life exists on Earth, Earth is a planet.
• 2:16:54
  Speaker 1: There are hundreds of billions of stars that have hundreds
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 1: of billions of planets. We have no idea how many
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 1: planets there are in the known universe that could potentially
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 1: support life. And if these things live on these planets,
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 1: and they live far longer than we have, Like if
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 1: you showed a nuclear bomb to someone from one hundred
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 1: years ago, they would say, that's the craziest fucking thing
• 2:17:21
  Speaker 1: I've ever seen in my life. You show them a reactor,
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 1: show them a television, so it's like my dog with
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 1: a light switch, right, just be able to FaceTime someone
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 1: in New Zealand. How what is that? What are you doing? Now?
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 1: Advance that forward one million years? Then you know, instead
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 1: of using propulsion, you are instead manipulating space time.
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 2: So that's exactly right. And one of the things I've
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 2: talked with Elon about this, and Elon is obviously a
• 2:17:50
  Speaker 2: super smart dude, but I've never heard like a super
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 2: satisfying answer to this. One of the things that worries me, Like,
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 2: I want humans to be a multiplanetary species. I want
• 2:18:01
  Speaker 2: us to go to Mars instead of a colony, and
• 2:18:03
  Speaker 2: you know, like that's sort of I love humanity, I
• 2:18:05
  Speaker 2: want to continue. And the problem with space travel that
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 2: I've again not heard a satisfying factory solution to is,
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 2: you know, when we're outside of the Earth's gravity, our genes,
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 2: like our actual DNA seems to not function as well
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 2: when it's not on Earth style gravity, which makes sense, right,
• 2:18:30
  Speaker 2: We developed in these conditions with this gravity. So whenever
• 2:18:35
  Speaker 2: you have somebody who goes to the National Space Station
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 2: for like three months or six months and they come
• 2:18:38
  Speaker 2: back and they are totally jacked up because like literally
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 2: the cells in their body are starting to like discombobulate
• 2:18:45
  Speaker 2: in response to a low gravity environment, I don't like
• 2:18:49
  Speaker 2: we have to figure out a solution to that problem.
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 2: That to me is sort of the most interesting part
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 2: of space travel of going to Mars setting up a
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 2: colony on another planet is if you set up a
• 2:19:00
  Speaker 2: colony on Mars, but in what it takes you like
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 2: two years to get there, in two years to get
• 2:19:05
  Speaker 2: back or something like that. But in that time you've
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 2: gone from a functioning adult healthy to like you dead
• 2:19:12
  Speaker 2: if you're in space for four years. That that part
• 2:19:16
  Speaker 2: of space travel is very fascinating to me. And I
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 2: don't know that I've heard any satisfactory solution to it.
• 2:19:21
  Speaker 1: I don't think conventionally there is a satisfactory solution. But
• 2:19:25
  Speaker 1: if you're talking about manipulating space time and not traditional propulsion.
• 2:19:29
  Speaker 2: You probably can figure that out.
• 2:19:30
  Speaker 1: You could manipulate you could essentially contain this environment and
• 2:19:34
  Speaker 1: exactly the same way it is and travel to somewhere
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 1: else with that environment. So this is the idea of
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 1: them living under the surface of the ocean ice. How
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 1: can they live in the depths of the ocean, Well,
• 2:19:46
  Speaker 1: because they have a completely contained environment.
• 2:19:49
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, I.
• 2:19:50
  Speaker 1: Mean, who knows, it's maybe just nonsense.
• 2:19:54
  Speaker 2: Maybe they figured out how I can eat like steak
• 2:19:57
  Speaker 2: and Greater's ice cream and have the blood profile of
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 2: you know, chicken and well.
• 2:20:02
  Speaker 1: I don't think chicken and sell is a way to go.
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 1: I know you don't. I'm a mistake guy. I think
• 2:20:07
  Speaker 1: just eat a little bit of ice cream every now
• 2:20:08
  Speaker 1: and then. By the way, ice cream is one of
• 2:20:11
  Speaker 1: the very best desserts for you because it contains fast.
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 2: A lot of fat, protein.
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 1: Right, that's right. It's a little bit of sugar, but
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 1: it's all it's a moderation.
• 2:20:20
  Speaker 2: Thing, that's right.
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, anybody really want to eat ice cream? As
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 1: a communist, there's nothing wrong with ice cream. Ice cream,
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 1: Speaking of communists.
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 2: The democratic socialism, Yeah, that's actually what they do at
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 2: their events is they throw the ice cream into the
• 2:20:33
  Speaker 2: Boston Harbor instead of the Yeah.
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those fucking people scare me. I'm really conciderned that
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 1: people think that's a good idea and that they think
• 2:20:44
  Speaker 1: that socialism just hasn't been done correctly. That drives me
• 2:20:49
  Speaker 1: nuts because I think a lot of like really well intentioned,
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 1: really kind and empathetic young people think that that's the
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 1: way to go, and I do not think they understan
• 2:21:00
  Speaker 1: stand the dangers of this ideology because it always leads
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 1: to one thing. It leads to a very powerful military
• 2:21:10
  Speaker 1: government that controls the population period, end of discussion. And
• 2:21:15
  Speaker 1: if you if you play it out, is literally the
• 2:21:17
  Speaker 1: only way that can get people to give up their money. Yes,
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 1: it's the only way they can get them to give
• 2:21:21
  Speaker 1: up their property. And when you're hearing like Momdanie talk
• 2:21:25
  Speaker 1: about freezing rents and taking bad landlords and then confiscating
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 1: their property, like, do you this is step one of
• 2:21:36
  Speaker 1: what's happened in every communist dictatorship throughout history. This is
• 2:21:40
  Speaker 1: what happened in North Korea. Give the government the land
• 2:21:43
  Speaker 1: and we'll make sure that no one ever has to
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 1: worry about food. What a great idea. Look how it
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 1: turned out.
• 2:21:49
  Speaker 2: So I don't know who said this, but the whole
• 2:21:52
  Speaker 2: argument of communism is that you seize the means of production.
• 2:21:56
  Speaker 2: But because the means of production, the most powerful means
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 2: of production is the in mind, you ultimately have to
• 2:22:01
  Speaker 2: get intotalitarianism. You have to have control of that most
• 2:22:05
  Speaker 2: fundamental element of the human person.
• 2:22:08
  Speaker 1: You also take away motivation. And there's a thing that
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 1: people here don't like, which is extreme wealth. But you
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 1: have to understand that if it wasn't for the motivation
• 2:22:18
  Speaker 1: of extreme wealth, you would not have an iPhone.
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 2: So here's we have these things, okay, So here's here's
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 2: let me give you my uh my, my Christian answer
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 2: to this, and it's a good plug for my my
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 2: new book, Communion, finding my way back to face.
• 2:22:33
  Speaker 1: Book Communion, which is all about aliens.
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, did you know that no coincidence?
• 2:22:38
  Speaker 1: Pull up the pull.
• 2:22:43
  Speaker 2: I want all your listeners to buy.
• 2:22:45
  Speaker 1: The problem is that you didn't know about this book.
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 1: I would have told you to come up with a
• 2:22:49
  Speaker 1: different title.
• 2:22:50
  Speaker 2: Seriously, Well, there we go. Okay, so we want that
• 2:22:54
  Speaker 2: is wild and then there's my first Communion is Okay,
• 2:22:57
  Speaker 2: that's like a kid's book. But yeah, we want people
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 2: to buy the second one, the one that says JD
• 2:23:01
  Speaker 2: vance on it. But okay. So this is one of
• 2:23:04
  Speaker 2: the things I talk about in the book is like
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 2: there's a there is a Christian idea of political economy
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 2: that's actually been lost in American politics, where it's it's
• 2:23:13
  Speaker 2: like we think of it as libertarianism, the hardcore free
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 2: market versus socialism or communism, and there actually is a
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 2: third way that has existed in pretty much all Christian
• 2:23:26
  Speaker 2: economic thinking going back two thousand years ago, which is
• 2:23:29
  Speaker 2: that yeah, extreme wealth inequality does create problems, but you
• 2:23:34
  Speaker 2: still got to have private property, you still have to
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 2: have a state that protects private property rights. And there's
• 2:23:39
  Speaker 2: a way to balance these things that I think we've
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 2: sort of lost in our country a little bit, And
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 2: when I like, Okay, let me play Devil's Advocate with
• 2:23:48
  Speaker 2: with the DSA, because I think that their ideas are crazy,
• 2:23:51
  Speaker 2: and I think that you're right, they will lead to
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 2: a very totalitarian place. I'm not defending a single thing
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 2: that they say, particularly their hatred of ice cream. What
• 2:23:59
  Speaker 2: I am what I am saying is and maybe this
• 2:24:03
  Speaker 2: is just sort of the way my mind works. I
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 2: tend to be a little bit more empathetic. Why are
• 2:24:07
  Speaker 2: young people attracted to socialism in twenty first century America?
• 2:24:12
  Speaker 2: One of the best interviews that Charlie Kirk ever gave
• 2:24:15
  Speaker 2: it was right before he died. It was an episode
• 2:24:17
  Speaker 2: that he did with Tucker Carlson where he talked about
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 2: the fact that if you don't give young people a stake,
• 2:24:23
  Speaker 2: if you don't give them ownership, if you don't give
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 2: them a sense of the American dream and of possibility
• 2:24:27
  Speaker 2: in the future, they're going to become socialists. Like if
• 2:24:31
  Speaker 2: you have a zero sum environment for a twenty five
• 2:24:33
  Speaker 2: year old in this country, they're going to start to say,
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 2: the only way for me to get anything is to
• 2:24:37
  Speaker 2: take away from somebody else. So we have to get
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 2: away from like the zero sum thinking. I think that's
• 2:24:42
  Speaker 2: like the root cause of this. But I also think that, look,
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 2: we've ran an experiment in the United States of America,
• 2:24:48
  Speaker 2: and you know, I think that we have undone that
• 2:24:52
  Speaker 2: experiment taken a different direction of the Trump administration where
• 2:24:56
  Speaker 2: ship all the factories overseas and let low wage fourn
• 2:25:00
  Speaker 2: make our stuff. That was a bad deal for American workers. Again,
• 2:25:04
  Speaker 2: it takes a long time to reverse that trend, but
• 2:25:06
  Speaker 2: I think it's one of the best parts of Trump
• 2:25:08
  Speaker 2: administration policy is you do see that trend starting to
• 2:25:11
  Speaker 2: reverse this idea that nobody should own anything, we should
• 2:25:14
  Speaker 2: all become renters, whereas what we're trying to do is
• 2:25:17
  Speaker 2: lower registrates. You actually have seen housing costs stabilized in
• 2:25:21
  Speaker 2: the country of the last year and a half. Frankly
• 2:25:23
  Speaker 2: because of immigration. We had way too many people going
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 2: after way too many homes you close the border. This
• 2:25:29
  Speaker 2: is one of the reasons why rents and housing costs
• 2:25:31
  Speaker 2: have stabilized a little bit. So I think that unless
• 2:25:35
  Speaker 2: you go down that pathway of allowing young Americans to
• 2:25:40
  Speaker 2: own something, socialism is the inevitable outcome. Do I think
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 2: that's good. No, but I really do worry. And I
• 2:25:46
  Speaker 2: see this, frankly more in my own party than I do.
• 2:25:48
  Speaker 2: On the other side. There is this revulsion to socialism
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 2: that's totally justified without enough thinking about how did we
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 2: get here in the first place. And man, if we
• 2:25:59
  Speaker 2: don't fix that, and I would say, if we don't
• 2:26:01
  Speaker 2: get back to a more Christian sort of understanding of economics,
• 2:26:06
  Speaker 2: socialism is the alternative like that, that is where this
• 2:26:10
  Speaker 2: goes well, if people don't own anything exactly, and in
• 2:26:14
  Speaker 2: some ways, Joe, the game is rigged. I mean, if
• 2:26:17
  Speaker 2: you look at I mean again, I just I think
• 2:26:22
  Speaker 2: so much of housing because you know, this happened. I
• 2:26:26
  Speaker 2: think it was during the presidential campaign. Maybe it was
• 2:26:28
  Speaker 2: right before, but I was I was talking to some
• 2:26:31
  Speaker 2: family members over Thanksgiving, and you know, just a sort
• 2:26:36
  Speaker 2: of a younger friend of my wife's. There were like
• 2:26:39
  Speaker 2: five or six years behind us. They were just about
• 2:26:41
  Speaker 2: to get married, and this young woman, successful engineer makes
• 2:26:47
  Speaker 2: a higher salary than most Americans. She just sort of
• 2:26:50
  Speaker 2: like tossed out there that you know, when her parents'
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 2: generation was coming up, it was like possible to own
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 2: a house and to raise a family and not be
• 2:26:59
  Speaker 2: worried that much about things. And my thought was, Okay,
• 2:27:02
  Speaker 2: you're an engineer. You make way more money than seventy
• 2:27:05
  Speaker 2: five percent of people your age, maybe ninety percent of
• 2:27:07
  Speaker 2: people your age, and you think that it is like
• 2:27:10
  Speaker 2: this ridiculous, unachievable objective to have literally what your parents had,
• 2:27:15
  Speaker 2: which is a decent job and nice house in a
• 2:27:17
  Speaker 2: safe place like at that at literally that same dinner.
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 2: Like another guy, another friend of my wife's, was talking
• 2:27:24
  Speaker 2: about this and he, you know, South Indian family grew up,
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 2: you know, his parents immigrated, he was born and raised
• 2:27:31
  Speaker 2: in San Diego, and he was like, you know, when
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 2: I was growing up in Ocean Side, this is like
• 2:27:34
  Speaker 2: a suburb of San Diego where there are a lot
• 2:27:37
  Speaker 2: of Marines live in Ocean Side. It's close to Camp Pendleton.
• 2:27:40
  Speaker 2: So when I was grown up, all of my like
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 2: the kids that I played with, that I rode boat
• 2:27:45
  Speaker 2: bikes with, that I was, you know, playing street hockey
• 2:27:47
  Speaker 2: with and football with. All of those kids were the
• 2:27:50
  Speaker 2: sons of enlisted Marines in Ocean Side, California. And then
• 2:27:54
  Speaker 2: we went and looked at like Oceanside, California rents. Again.
• 2:27:58
  Speaker 2: This is a couple of years ago, rents and housing prices,
• 2:28:02
  Speaker 2: Like every house was north of a million dollars on
• 2:28:04
  Speaker 2: the street. This guy grew up in and listen Marine. Frankly,
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 2: most Marine officers could not afford to buy a million
• 2:28:09
  Speaker 2: dollar house. So, like, does the socialism thing scare me?
• 2:28:12
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 2:28:12
  Speaker 2: Is it the wrong solution? Yes? But one thing I
• 2:28:15
  Speaker 2: try to persuade my fellow Republicans of is socialism is
• 2:28:19
  Speaker 2: the alternative. If we don't have a pathway to give
• 2:28:23
  Speaker 2: people a sense that the system is not rigged and
• 2:28:25
  Speaker 2: that the American dream is attainable, that's like our job,
• 2:28:29
  Speaker 2: that's what we have to do. I'm not saying Rome
• 2:28:31
  Speaker 2: was built in a day. It's not going to be
• 2:28:32
  Speaker 2: easy to undo some of these economic trends. But man,
• 2:28:36
  Speaker 2: we ran the experiment. We ran the experiment of offshoring
• 2:28:41
  Speaker 2: all of our industrial jobs, of becoming a services and
• 2:28:44
  Speaker 2: finance economy, and allowing Wall Street to come in and
• 2:28:47
  Speaker 2: buy every asset of modern life and turn it into
• 2:28:51
  Speaker 2: an investible. You know, line goes up asset and what
• 2:28:55
  Speaker 2: is that done? It's created a generation of kids who
• 2:28:59
  Speaker 2: kind of are attract to socialism. You have to fix
• 2:29:01
  Speaker 2: that problem.
• 2:29:02
  Speaker 1: Well, kids that do feel and you're correct, and I
• 2:29:06
  Speaker 1: agree with you. The system is rigged. Kids feel like
• 2:29:10
  Speaker 1: there are no options other than to burn it down,
• 2:29:13
  Speaker 1: and that's the problem. And because they feel very frustrated.
• 2:29:16
  Speaker 2: And this is part of our job is to provide
• 2:29:18
  Speaker 2: an option that isn't burn it down, but is not
• 2:29:21
  Speaker 2: just doing the same things that we've done for the past.
• 2:29:22
  Speaker 1: They're also terrified about the future because of AI, because
• 2:29:26
  Speaker 1: I feel like jobs are going to be taken away
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 1: and there will be no place for people that have
• 2:29:32
  Speaker 1: education in very specific avenues, like very specific jobs are
• 2:29:38
  Speaker 1: going to just be irrelevant. They're going to be completely
• 2:29:41
  Speaker 1: wiped out by AI.
• 2:29:43
  Speaker 2: There is a huge fear of over this. So I
• 2:29:45
  Speaker 2: let me kind of give my own my own spin
• 2:29:47
  Speaker 2: on this. I was talking to a CEO not of
• 2:29:50
  Speaker 2: an AI company, but of a tech company, and he's
• 2:29:53
  Speaker 2: one of the few CIO CEOs that's sort of right
• 2:29:55
  Speaker 2: of center, and I was like, well, you know, what
• 2:29:58
  Speaker 2: do you think do you think AI is going to
• 2:29:59
  Speaker 2: come take all the jobs? And his basic take was,
• 2:30:03
  Speaker 2: the real historical analogy is the Industrial Revolution. And you know,
• 2:30:08
  Speaker 2: did it the Industrial Revolution displace or change a lot
• 2:30:11
  Speaker 2: of jobs? Yes, it also created a lot of jobs
• 2:30:14
  Speaker 2: that didn't exist before. So he was like, my concern
• 2:30:16
  Speaker 2: here is not that fifty percent of Americans are going
• 2:30:20
  Speaker 2: to be unable to find a job. There will be
• 2:30:23
  Speaker 2: some displacement, some sort of churn in the labor market,
• 2:30:26
  Speaker 2: but that's not the main issue, he said. The main
• 2:30:27
  Speaker 2: issue if you go back to the industrial Revolution, is
• 2:30:30
  Speaker 2: that there was a lot of demand for workers, but
• 2:30:32
  Speaker 2: the inequality in the country got completely out of whack,
• 2:30:37
  Speaker 2: like this is the era of the robber barons. And
• 2:30:39
  Speaker 2: then the robber barons in both the Europe and the
• 2:30:41
  Speaker 2: United States led to fascism, it led to communism again
• 2:30:44
  Speaker 2: to this point about giving people an option. If you
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 2: don't give them a good option, then it leads to
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 2: fascism and communism. Now there's this fascinating and cyclical written
• 2:30:54
  Speaker 2: by Popolei of the thirteenth I'll send it to you.
• 2:30:56
  Speaker 2: It's one of the best things that I think has
• 2:30:58
  Speaker 2: ever been written by a Christian leader, where it's written
• 2:31:01
  Speaker 2: in the late nineteenth century, and the basic argument of
• 2:31:03
  Speaker 2: it is that in the age of industrial churn, there
• 2:31:08
  Speaker 2: has to be a middle way between six year olds
• 2:31:12
  Speaker 2: working on the factory floor and socialism. And part of
• 2:31:16
  Speaker 2: that solution is to give workers a sort of say
• 2:31:20
  Speaker 2: in what's going on, give normal people some power in this,
• 2:31:24
  Speaker 2: in this, in this system. And I think that's the
• 2:31:27
  Speaker 2: thing we have to figure out what AI. I won't
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 2: say that I have all the solutions, because I haven't,
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 2: but I think the fundamental question is, how do you
• 2:31:33
  Speaker 2: ensure that normal people have some control over this, control
• 2:31:38
  Speaker 2: over what's their kids are seeing, control over, you know,
• 2:31:42
  Speaker 2: the the economic forces that are being unleashed by AI,
• 2:31:46
  Speaker 2: some certainty that they're not going to wake up in
• 2:31:48
  Speaker 2: a world where they can't buy a home but some
• 2:31:50
  Speaker 2: other guy owns thirty five mansions, right That That, to
• 2:31:53
  Speaker 2: me is the fundamental challenge of AI is it's going
• 2:31:57
  Speaker 2: to unleash a lot of wealth creation. If that wealth
• 2:32:00
  Speaker 2: creation all goes to some some segment of people, you're
• 2:32:03
  Speaker 2: gonna have communism. Like that, That is, that is the
• 2:32:05
  Speaker 2: choice before us. Is a lot of wealth being created,
• 2:32:08
  Speaker 2: that's good, by the way, I like. I like wealth
• 2:32:10
  Speaker 2: being created, but if if you don't ensure that there's
• 2:32:13
  Speaker 2: some broader prosperity from that wealth creation, Like we have
• 2:32:17
  Speaker 2: run this experiment before and it leads to communism.
• 2:32:20
  Speaker 1: Right, So if the system is fucked, how do we
• 2:32:22
  Speaker 1: unfuck it.
• 2:32:23
  Speaker 2: So you have a magic wand, I mean, look, I
• 2:32:27
  Speaker 2: this is what I'm saying. I'm being honest with you
• 2:32:29
  Speaker 2: that I don't have a magic wand. I think there
• 2:32:32
  Speaker 2: are a few things that that that we should sort
• 2:32:34
  Speaker 2: of take from this, I think, Okay, the first is
• 2:32:38
  Speaker 2: that we should give workers a real say at the
• 2:32:42
  Speaker 2: bargaining table. Okay, So what really worries me about AI
• 2:32:48
  Speaker 2: is the is the fact that private sector unions have
• 2:32:51
  Speaker 2: largely disappeared from the United States of America. There are
• 2:32:54
  Speaker 2: a couple of exceptions, but if you go back to
• 2:32:56
  Speaker 2: like why do the United States in Britain whether the
• 2:32:59
  Speaker 2: Industrial Revolution better than literally every other Western country, I
• 2:33:03
  Speaker 2: think you can make a good argument strong religious institutions.
• 2:33:06
  Speaker 2: Right now we have very weak religious institutions. Number two,
• 2:33:08
  Speaker 2: I think you could say strong worker participation institutions and
• 2:33:12
  Speaker 2: not just private sector labor unions. That was a big
• 2:33:15
  Speaker 2: piece of it. But people don't realize that, you know, Hollywood,
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 2: major studios would actually work with community groups and churches
• 2:33:26
  Speaker 2: to sort of help like develop content. Now this wasn't organic,
• 2:33:31
  Speaker 2: this was a natural cooperation. This wasn't mandated by some law.
• 2:33:34
  Speaker 2: But where they'd go and say, help us produce content
• 2:33:37
  Speaker 2: that actually speaks to your membership, that speaks to your community.
• 2:33:41
  Speaker 2: And there was this sense of participation in American society
• 2:33:45
  Speaker 2: that I think we've lost, and that's the thing that
• 2:33:48
  Speaker 2: I think that we have to rebuild a little bit.
• 2:33:49
  Speaker 2: It's interesting that the Trump administration, the President personally certainly me,
• 2:33:53
  Speaker 2: have been accused of being too pro labor for Republicans.
• 2:33:58
  Speaker 2: But one of the reason why I'm pro labor as
• 2:34:00
  Speaker 2: a Republican is because, and I'm not saying unions are perfect,
• 2:34:04
  Speaker 2: some of them have very serious problems. Like I'm open
• 2:34:07
  Speaker 2: eyed about this, Like the alternative may very well be
• 2:34:10
  Speaker 2: communism in the United States of America. Not next year,
• 2:34:13
  Speaker 2: but down the road. You've got to give people a
• 2:34:16
  Speaker 2: seat at the table. And I think that's that's one
• 2:34:18
  Speaker 2: answer to the question. I think a second answer to
• 2:34:22
  Speaker 2: the question is competition. So if you go back again
• 2:34:25
  Speaker 2: to what worked and what was broken about the Industrial Revolution,
• 2:34:29
  Speaker 2: hyper monopolist style companies that had way too much power.
• 2:34:35
  Speaker 2: I mean Teddy Roosevelt famously talked about how, you know,
• 2:34:39
  Speaker 2: some of the steel trusts were more powerful than the
• 2:34:42
  Speaker 2: United States government, so you could vote, your vote didn't
• 2:34:46
  Speaker 2: matter as much because the corporations were more powerful than
• 2:34:49
  Speaker 2: the government. I think raining that in making sure that, Like,
• 2:34:52
  Speaker 2: how do you what's the most obvious way to give
• 2:34:54
  Speaker 2: normal people participation? It's democracy. But if a single corporation
• 2:35:00
  Speaker 2: has monopolized an entire space, then you don't have a
• 2:35:03
  Speaker 2: real democracy unless you reign in the power of that company.
• 2:35:08
  Speaker 2: And I think that that is another big risk with AI.
• 2:35:11
  Speaker 2: It's that we have a hyper monopolist who dominates the
• 2:35:14
  Speaker 2: space and then influences the government, influences a nonprofit sector,
• 2:35:19
  Speaker 2: and then real people are effectively cut out of the bargain.
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 2: So again, I'm not gonna pretend sitting here that I
• 2:35:24
  Speaker 2: have all the solutions. I think about this more than
• 2:35:26
  Speaker 2: almost anything else right now, But it's the solution has
• 2:35:31
  Speaker 2: to be giving normal people actual authority over their own lives.
• 2:35:36
  Speaker 1: But how can the government get involved in those steps?
• 2:35:39
  Speaker 1: Like what could be done on a federal level to
• 2:35:42
  Speaker 1: implement that?
• 2:35:44
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think one of the things, and
• 2:35:47
  Speaker 2: we've looked at legislation along these lines. We haven't yet
• 2:35:50
  Speaker 2: pushed anything. But you know, one problem with the twenty
• 2:35:53
  Speaker 2: with with like the private sector labor union. One reason
• 2:35:56
  Speaker 2: why your Democrats will say, your private unions are at
• 2:36:00
  Speaker 2: low participation rates because the government has, you know, been
• 2:36:03
  Speaker 2: anti union. It's like some element of truth to that.
• 2:36:06
  Speaker 2: But the reality is that a lot of workers don't
• 2:36:09
  Speaker 2: see the utility in joining a union because it's like,
• 2:36:12
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, it's the twentieth century institution
• 2:36:15
  Speaker 2: when you need a twenty first century institution. So I
• 2:36:17
  Speaker 2: think updating the modern union to be to make more
• 2:36:21
  Speaker 2: sense in the twenty first century. I think that's that's
• 2:36:24
  Speaker 2: a part of the story, you know, I think antitrust,
• 2:36:28
  Speaker 2: how would you do that? Well, a friend of mine,
• 2:36:30
  Speaker 2: his name is Rang Cass, actually very fascinating guy, sort
• 2:36:33
  Speaker 2: of a right of center economic thinker.
• 2:36:35
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 2:36:35
  Speaker 2: His idea is that twentieth century labor law presupposes a
• 2:36:40
  Speaker 2: sort of zero sum conflict between the company and the union,
• 2:36:44
  Speaker 2: and that where you've seen unions actually thrive certain places
• 2:36:47
  Speaker 2: in Europe it's a little bit more cooperative and the
• 2:36:52
  Speaker 2: unions actually have a little bit more power themselves where
• 2:36:55
  Speaker 2: they can negotiate with the corporation with a little bit
• 2:36:58
  Speaker 2: more breadth than a little bit more freedom, whereas in
• 2:37:01
  Speaker 2: the United States we sort of set a floor, we
• 2:37:03
  Speaker 2: make we create a very small number of things the
• 2:37:06
  Speaker 2: union can actually negotiate over, and so a lot of
• 2:37:08
  Speaker 2: people say, well, why would I join a union, why
• 2:37:10
  Speaker 2: would I participate in it? So basically making the union
• 2:37:13
  Speaker 2: a little bit more cooperative, which requires changing the legal
• 2:37:16
  Speaker 2: form of it. I think that's interesting. I think anti
• 2:37:18
  Speaker 2: trust is a huge piece of the story. Now it's
• 2:37:21
  Speaker 2: a little early with AI because we don't yet know
• 2:37:23
  Speaker 2: which companies are dominant. But I think one of the
• 2:37:25
  Speaker 2: big mistakes man we made in the early two thousands
• 2:37:28
  Speaker 2: is we should have gone after the big tech companies
• 2:37:30
  Speaker 2: with anti trust. Like there is like a trust busting
• 2:37:34
  Speaker 2: mechanism that exists in the US government. We just didn't
• 2:37:37
  Speaker 2: use it. We're gonna have to be willing to use
• 2:37:39
  Speaker 2: it in the twenty first century.
• 2:37:41
  Speaker 1: And when it comes to unions, what like, what is
• 2:37:47
  Speaker 1: wrong with the current structure in terms of what power
• 2:37:53
  Speaker 1: the unions have to negotiate for labor? So let me look.
• 2:37:57
  Speaker 2: So there's a concrete example that orn you is all
• 2:38:00
  Speaker 2: the time. So in some European countries, you have a
• 2:38:03
  Speaker 2: minimum wage. Right in some European countries, the union can
• 2:38:08
  Speaker 2: can actually cut a deal with the employer to where
• 2:38:12
  Speaker 2: you pay a brand new employee less than the minimum wage.
• 2:38:17
  Speaker 2: Then you pay a more senior person higher than in
• 2:38:20
  Speaker 2: the minimum wage. But in order to pay the junior
• 2:38:23
  Speaker 2: employee less than the minimum wage, you have to provide
• 2:38:25
  Speaker 2: them job training and better benefits and so forth. And
• 2:38:28
  Speaker 2: so the idea is you turn the employee for the
• 2:38:31
  Speaker 2: first couple of years, you turn the company almost into
• 2:38:34
  Speaker 2: an educational institution. But in order to do that, the
• 2:38:37
  Speaker 2: union has to have flexibility. That kind of arrangement is
• 2:38:40
  Speaker 2: effectively illegal in the United States of America. So it's
• 2:38:43
  Speaker 2: that you create the ability for the union to be
• 2:38:46
  Speaker 2: more flexible and how it negotiates. You don't set all
• 2:38:49
  Speaker 2: the terms for it. You allow the union to figure
• 2:38:51
  Speaker 2: out what's in the best interests of its membership.
• 2:38:53
  Speaker 1: But people are opposed, like initially knee jerk reaction to
• 2:38:57
  Speaker 1: lowering wages. In lowering wage, I mean, most people feel
• 2:39:02
  Speaker 1: and I agree that minimum wage is almost impossible to
• 2:39:05
  Speaker 1: live off.
• 2:39:06
  Speaker 2: Of, especially with one hundred percent.
• 2:39:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
• 2:39:09
  Speaker 2: But what these unions are not asking for, I mean,
• 2:39:12
  Speaker 2: you have to kind of trust the labor representation of
• 2:39:15
  Speaker 2: the people to sort of make the right arrangement for them.
• 2:39:19
  Speaker 2: And so it's not Hey, let's create a minimum wage
• 2:39:23
  Speaker 2: or a wage floor that's lower than the minimum wage.
• 2:39:27
  Speaker 2: It's what about taking for the first year of a
• 2:39:30
  Speaker 2: person coming into the labor market where you know, they
• 2:39:32
  Speaker 2: work on an internship for zero dollars right at at
• 2:39:36
  Speaker 2: a company. Why don't we allow our workers to work
• 2:39:39
  Speaker 2: effectively in internship, get the training they need, get the
• 2:39:42
  Speaker 2: benefits that they need, and then join the workforce full
• 2:39:46
  Speaker 2: time at a much higher wage. The idea is that
• 2:39:49
  Speaker 2: you trust the union to come up with the starter
• 2:39:51
  Speaker 2: or the labor organization, whatever you want to call it,
• 2:39:53
  Speaker 2: is you actually give the union the ability to sort
• 2:39:56
  Speaker 2: of negotiate over this stuff on behalf of its members.
• 2:40:00
  Speaker 2: Don't assume the way the United States we do it
• 2:40:03
  Speaker 2: is we basically take all that authority away from the
• 2:40:07
  Speaker 2: union itself and we try to settle this stuff at
• 2:40:10
  Speaker 2: the level of the government. But again, where unions have
• 2:40:14
  Speaker 2: been more successful, where they actually have higher membership and
• 2:40:17
  Speaker 2: participation rates, what you see is the the these organizations
• 2:40:22
  Speaker 2: actually have much greater flexibility, and that ends up meaning
• 2:40:26
  Speaker 2: that more people want to join. That means these organizations
• 2:40:29
  Speaker 2: have more power, and then that means they can figure
• 2:40:31
  Speaker 2: out the arrangement that works best for their membership. So
• 2:40:35
  Speaker 2: you kind of have to trust people. You have to
• 2:40:36
  Speaker 2: trust that people are willing to do this thing for
• 2:40:39
  Speaker 2: their own for their own benefit. And you know, so
• 2:40:44
  Speaker 2: long as they've got the right authority and so long
• 2:40:46
  Speaker 2: as they've got the right tools you give, you can
• 2:40:48
  Speaker 2: trust people to do what's in their best interests in
• 2:40:51
  Speaker 2: these organizations, to do what's in the best interests of
• 2:40:53
  Speaker 2: their membership.
• 2:40:53
  Speaker 1: Well, the problem that people would have with that is
• 2:40:56
  Speaker 1: that corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders. They always
• 2:41:00
  Speaker 1: want to make the most money possible, and they have
• 2:41:02
  Speaker 1: to make more money next quarter than they made this quarter,
• 2:41:04
  Speaker 1: and one of the ways they do that is by
• 2:41:06
  Speaker 1: paying people less.
• 2:41:08
  Speaker 2: But that's why I think that you have to give
• 2:41:09
  Speaker 2: workers some some seat at the bargaining table. There's a
• 2:41:13
  Speaker 2: theory of like economics that dominated in the late twentieth
• 2:41:16
  Speaker 2: century America, which is basically that you know, the labor
• 2:41:21
  Speaker 2: market was entirely efficient, and maybe the corporation didn't want
• 2:41:25
  Speaker 2: to pay their workers more money, but they would be
• 2:41:27
  Speaker 2: forced to pay their workers more money purely because if
• 2:41:30
  Speaker 2: they didn't do that, then they wouldn't be able to
• 2:41:31
  Speaker 2: get enough workers. Now, I do think that there's an
• 2:41:34
  Speaker 2: argument for like, there are all of these ways why
• 2:41:36
  Speaker 2: we should give workers more bargaining power one of them,
• 2:41:39
  Speaker 2: and we've spent a lot of time talking about labor organizations,
• 2:41:41
  Speaker 2: and that's important.
• 2:41:42
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 2:41:43
  Speaker 2: One of the reasons why I'm such an immigration hawk
• 2:41:45
  Speaker 2: is because it is really important not to flood the
• 2:41:48
  Speaker 2: country with low wage immigrants. Because if you give a
• 2:41:51
  Speaker 2: corporation a choice between a low wage immigrant and a
• 2:41:55
  Speaker 2: native worker, who's going to require, by the way, a
• 2:41:57
  Speaker 2: native worker of any race, they're going to be forced
• 2:42:00
  Speaker 2: to pay the native worker more if there's not a
• 2:42:03
  Speaker 2: pool of low wage workers to go to. And this
• 2:42:05
  Speaker 2: is like a consistent finding in the economics literature, but
• 2:42:09
  Speaker 2: also just common sense that when you flood the country
• 2:42:12
  Speaker 2: with low wage immigrants. This is why I think the
• 2:42:14
  Speaker 2: DSA types are a little full of shit when they
• 2:42:17
  Speaker 2: talk about helping normal people. If you want to help
• 2:42:20
  Speaker 2: a normal person, don't provide a corporation nine low wage
• 2:42:25
  Speaker 2: migrants to compete against them when they're bargaining for wages.
• 2:42:29
  Speaker 2: You actually give workers more power when you have a
• 2:42:32
  Speaker 2: more restricted immigration policy.
• 2:42:34
  Speaker 1: Well that's the that's where the real con is, right
• 2:42:39
  Speaker 1: because a lot of Yeah, you've told me that you
• 2:42:42
  Speaker 1: had a conversation with someone who was at the head
• 2:42:45
  Speaker 1: of some corporation that was upset that they were trying
• 2:42:48
  Speaker 1: to shut down illegal immigration because he said, it's.
• 2:42:50
  Speaker 2: A hotel chain.
• 2:42:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:42:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because he said, basically, I want to be able
• 2:42:53
  Speaker 2: to pay my workers less money, and it's very hard
• 2:42:56
  Speaker 2: because the native workers expect higher wages. It's crazy now.
• 2:43:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's this story from a few years ago
• 2:43:04
  Speaker 2: was the New York Times. It was like unintentionally hilarious,
• 2:43:08
  Speaker 2: and it's talking about a you know, why Apple would
• 2:43:13
  Speaker 2: choose to manufacture in Asia over the United States of America,
• 2:43:17
  Speaker 2: And it's talking about how, you know, the American workers,
• 2:43:21
  Speaker 2: and it's almost kind of judgy towards the American workers.
• 2:43:23
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, you know, the American workers want to
• 2:43:26
  Speaker 2: go home and see their kids and have dinner with
• 2:43:28
  Speaker 2: their kids. And it's like, by the way, you go
• 2:43:31
  Speaker 2: to the Fox confactory and Apple and China, the Fox
• 2:43:34
  Speaker 2: confactory that develops products for Apple and China, and.
• 2:43:37
  Speaker 1: What do you see.
• 2:43:37
  Speaker 2: You literally see suicide nets around the top of the building.
• 2:43:41
  Speaker 2: Because yeah, the workers work seventy two hours a week
• 2:43:44
  Speaker 2: and they sleep in little apartments for to a bedroom.
• 2:43:49
  Speaker 2: But they also are so miserable you have to take
• 2:43:52
  Speaker 2: steps to prevent them from killing themselves. So, you know,
• 2:43:56
  Speaker 2: what I want out of American life is a little
• 2:43:58
  Speaker 2: bit more dignity, a little bit more oh you know. Yeah,
• 2:44:01
  Speaker 2: I can afford to feed my family. I can also
• 2:44:04
  Speaker 2: go home and actually watch my kids baseball game, and
• 2:44:06
  Speaker 2: that balance. I think if you're looking at it from
• 2:44:09
  Speaker 2: a pure profit motive, you know, maybe the corporation isn't
• 2:44:13
  Speaker 2: going to think like that, which is why you have
• 2:44:15
  Speaker 2: to give the people real power to push back and
• 2:44:17
  Speaker 2: advocate for their own interests.
• 2:44:19
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people in this country, if
• 2:44:22
  Speaker 1: they had to choose, especially people that have money, if
• 2:44:25
  Speaker 1: they had to choose between a phone that was manufactured
• 2:44:29
  Speaker 1: in America where people were paid a very good wage
• 2:44:31
  Speaker 1: and had benefits, and you have an iPhone that has
• 2:44:34
  Speaker 1: a little American flag on the back and you have
• 2:44:37
  Speaker 1: one that doesn't, I think a lot of people would
• 2:44:39
  Speaker 1: buy the one with the American flag on the back
• 2:44:41
  Speaker 1: because just they would feel better about their purchase. They'd
• 2:44:44
  Speaker 1: feel I feel weird when I'm holding a phone and
• 2:44:48
  Speaker 1: I know that someone was working in some factory in
• 2:44:51
  Speaker 1: some foreign country, working fifteen hours a day, right, and
• 2:44:54
  Speaker 1: being paid nothing.
• 2:44:55
  Speaker 2: That's right. I think that's true of our food by
• 2:44:57
  Speaker 2: the way, too. Yeah, they'd much rather it be, you know,
• 2:45:00
  Speaker 2: made locally. They're willing to pay a little bit more
• 2:45:03
  Speaker 2: so long as it's healthier and it's made locally. There
• 2:45:06
  Speaker 2: are obviously your exceptions to every rule, but I do again,
• 2:45:09
  Speaker 2: I think that we have run the experiment where we
• 2:45:13
  Speaker 2: just try to do everything with low wage foreigners, whether
• 2:45:19
  Speaker 2: they're in the United States via illegal immigration or whether
• 2:45:22
  Speaker 2: they're outside the United States via offsaring and outsourcing. And
• 2:45:26
  Speaker 2: what it has led to is I think a society
• 2:45:30
  Speaker 2: where socialism is a bit on the rise. And one
• 2:45:32
  Speaker 2: of our jobs in the administration I think about this
• 2:45:34
  Speaker 2: all the time, is how do you make things. I'm
• 2:45:38
  Speaker 2: not saying we're perfect, and I'm not saying there is
• 2:45:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of work to do, because there is. Like
• 2:45:41
  Speaker 2: we were left in quite a hole by forty years
• 2:45:43
  Speaker 2: of bad policy. People wways talk about the Biden administration inflation. Yeah,
• 2:45:47
  Speaker 2: the Biden administration inflation was terrible, got up to nine percent.
• 2:45:50
  Speaker 2: By the way, I think today's CPI report is you
• 2:45:52
  Speaker 2: had deflation in the United States. We actually had prices
• 2:45:55
  Speaker 2: coming down, which is good because the Iran war. Gas
• 2:45:58
  Speaker 2: prices came down, like prices.
• 2:46:02
  Speaker 1: Have come down now because of the Iran War.
• 2:46:05
  Speaker 2: Compared to where they were a month ago, right, so
• 2:46:08
  Speaker 2: they're not down from the beginning of the war, but
• 2:46:09
  Speaker 2: they're down from where they were a month ago. So
• 2:46:11
  Speaker 2: you had a good CPI report that a consumer price
• 2:46:14
  Speaker 2: inflation report today. My point is, yes, I don't ever
• 2:46:19
  Speaker 2: get to the nine percent inflation of the Biden administration. Yes,
• 2:46:22
  Speaker 2: the Trump administration has had a much better record inflation
• 2:46:25
  Speaker 2: than the Biden administration, nothing close to nine percent, even
• 2:46:28
  Speaker 2: in our worst month. But some of this stuff is
• 2:46:30
  Speaker 2: actually much longer term. This is forty years of failed
• 2:46:34
  Speaker 2: bipartisan leadership which is created really a kind of shell
• 2:46:39
  Speaker 2: corporation out of the United States of America. We don't
• 2:46:41
  Speaker 2: make enough of our own stuff, we don't have enough
• 2:46:44
  Speaker 2: self reliance, our workers don't have enough bargaining power. That
• 2:46:48
  Speaker 2: has led in a lot of ways, I think to
• 2:46:50
  Speaker 2: this kind of socialism fervor, and we have to keep
• 2:46:54
  Speaker 2: fixing these problems. Again, I think that we're going in
• 2:46:56
  Speaker 2: the right direction. Maybe people disagree, but it's going to
• 2:46:59
  Speaker 2: take years to fix this problem. And if we don't,
• 2:47:02
  Speaker 2: we're going to end up with a socialist president in
• 2:47:04
  Speaker 2: this country.
• 2:47:05
  Speaker 1: I think it's also a narrative change. And then the
• 2:47:09
  Speaker 1: narrative is stopping immigration is cruelty and your racist or xenophobic,
• 2:47:17
  Speaker 1: and that we should just instead give these people citizenship.
• 2:47:21
  Speaker 1: And it's not a coincidence that. I mean, like, what
• 2:47:25
  Speaker 1: we dealt with over the last four years was insane
• 2:47:29
  Speaker 1: where they just opened the border and not just encouraged
• 2:47:33
  Speaker 1: people to come across, but facilitated it, helped them, got
• 2:47:36
  Speaker 1: them on Medicaid, got them on Social Security, got people
• 2:47:39
  Speaker 1: they told people, do you have a bad back? Okay,
• 2:47:43
  Speaker 1: well your permanent disability and you get free money, put
• 2:47:47
  Speaker 1: them in a hotel, give them a phone, Like that's crazy,
• 2:47:50
  Speaker 1: and then move them to blue states. And then you
• 2:47:53
  Speaker 1: realize that that has a direct impact on congressional seats
• 2:47:58
  Speaker 1: because of the census, which is also nuts account citizens.
• 2:48:01
  Speaker 2: It should only count citizens, but it doesn't, and that
• 2:48:04
  Speaker 2: actually steals congressional representation away from areas that have lower
• 2:48:08
  Speaker 2: illegal immigration, right, which is its own its own problem.
• 2:48:11
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's the thing that I don't understand
• 2:48:16
  Speaker 2: about the democratic socialist of American obviously I disagree with
• 2:48:19
  Speaker 2: a lot of their ideas, but like if you go
• 2:48:21
  Speaker 2: back to Cesar Chavez, one of the original like founding
• 2:48:25
  Speaker 2: fathers of the American workers' rights movement, Okay, he was
• 2:48:30
  Speaker 2: a hardcore restrictionist on immigration because he thought that the
• 2:48:34
  Speaker 2: bosses would bring in low wage immigrants to compete against
• 2:48:38
  Speaker 2: his workers and that would drive down their wages. And
• 2:48:41
  Speaker 2: yet the DSA, which says they care about the wages
• 2:48:44
  Speaker 2: of workers, is quite literally like an open borders organization.
• 2:48:48
  Speaker 2: So I tend to think that it's it's allbs that
• 2:48:52
  Speaker 2: they are actually pursuing a set of policies that are
• 2:48:55
  Speaker 2: good for that are they're like corporations, care way more
• 2:49:02
  Speaker 2: about open borders than they do about any other policy
• 2:49:06
  Speaker 2: the DSA cares about. So while these people say that
• 2:49:08
  Speaker 2: they're trying to fight for workers and they're trying to
• 2:49:10
  Speaker 2: fight for the working man, the actual end result of
• 2:49:13
  Speaker 2: DSA policy is to flood the country with low wage immigrants,
• 2:49:18
  Speaker 2: which will destroy the middle class of this country. In fact,
• 2:49:20
  Speaker 2: we have run this experiment for decades now, and we
• 2:49:23
  Speaker 2: have a much weaker middle class than we did before
• 2:49:25
  Speaker 2: it started.
• 2:49:26
  Speaker 1: And I think this is a part of the problem
• 2:49:29
  Speaker 1: that this country has, that there's this narrative Republicans are
• 2:49:34
  Speaker 1: cruel and they're anti worker, and that they're anti lower
• 2:49:38
  Speaker 1: class people or lower middle class people. Yep, it's a
• 2:49:41
  Speaker 1: bit that narrative has to someone has to do a
• 2:49:43
  Speaker 1: better job of messaging.
• 2:49:44
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to, man, I'm trying to, but you know,
• 2:49:46
  Speaker 2: it's one of those things that it took a long
• 2:49:48
  Speaker 2: while for it to set in. It's going to take
• 2:49:50
  Speaker 2: a long while to get out of it. But what
• 2:49:52
  Speaker 2: I just I try to remind people is that anybody
• 2:49:55
  Speaker 2: who actually cares about the safety of your community is
• 2:49:59
  Speaker 2: going to care about not empowering police brutality, but empowering
• 2:50:03
  Speaker 2: the good cops to do what they need to do.
• 2:50:05
  Speaker 2: Anybody who cares about law and order is going to
• 2:50:07
  Speaker 2: want to throw violent criminals in jail, not close down
• 2:50:10
  Speaker 2: the prison. Anybody who cares about your wages and your
• 2:50:13
  Speaker 2: safety is going to want to control the border. So
• 2:50:17
  Speaker 2: I just all I can think to do is to
• 2:50:19
  Speaker 2: remind people that I'm not saying Republicans are perfect. And
• 2:50:24
  Speaker 2: you know, I have disagreements of course within my own
• 2:50:25
  Speaker 2: party all the time, but fundamentally our party is right
• 2:50:31
  Speaker 2: now pursuing a much better set of policies when it
• 2:50:35
  Speaker 2: comes to safety or your home, your wages, your ability
• 2:50:39
  Speaker 2: to keep more of your money. I just got to
• 2:50:41
  Speaker 2: keep preaching that message. And you know, the chips fall
• 2:50:44
  Speaker 2: where they may.
• 2:50:45
  Speaker 1: And if you just look at the result of what
• 2:50:47
  Speaker 1: you see in these cities where they don't enforce crime,
• 2:50:50
  Speaker 1: where they don't enforce immigration laws, they provide sanctuary states,
• 2:50:57
  Speaker 1: you see disasters over and over and over again. Yeah,
• 2:51:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, and I don't understand.
• 2:51:03
  Speaker 2: Exactly why people who are voting for.
• 2:51:07
  Speaker 1: These things can't see that. They can't see that the
• 2:51:11
  Speaker 1: results have been catastrophic. Year after year, they keep getting worse. Yeah,
• 2:51:16
  Speaker 1: and the idea of voting a new, better person to
• 2:51:18
  Speaker 1: do the same thing is just crazy.
• 2:51:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's totally crazy to me too. I think part
• 2:51:25
  Speaker 2: of it is we haven't done a good enough job
• 2:51:27
  Speaker 2: of actually going to some of these places. Part of
• 2:51:30
  Speaker 2: it is that it is shifting, and sometimes these shifts
• 2:51:32
  Speaker 2: just take a long time. If you look, the Republican
• 2:51:34
  Speaker 2: Party under Trump's leadership is way more working class, way
• 2:51:38
  Speaker 2: more middle class than the Republican Party of twenty years ago.
• 2:51:41
  Speaker 2: So these things are starting to shift. But the public
• 2:51:43
  Speaker 2: safety thing is very interesting to me because like one
• 2:51:47
  Speaker 2: of the promises of America is that every man, woman,
• 2:51:52
  Speaker 2: and child, rich or poor, black or white, deserves public safety.
• 2:51:57
  Speaker 2: Like every rich person ever has had public safety. Every
• 2:52:01
  Speaker 2: rich person ever has been able to afford some security
• 2:52:04
  Speaker 2: guard to make sure that somebody who comes and tries
• 2:52:05
  Speaker 2: to steal their stuff or kidnap their kids, they're protected
• 2:52:08
  Speaker 2: against that. What America did is we democratize public safety.
• 2:52:14
  Speaker 2: Every person gets to keep their property, every person gets
• 2:52:17
  Speaker 2: to not be stolen from, every person gets to walk
• 2:52:20
  Speaker 2: down their neighborhood at night without being being mugged. And
• 2:52:23
  Speaker 2: obviously we have imperfectly applied that. But what the left
• 2:52:27
  Speaker 2: has done over the last few years, why I think
• 2:52:31
  Speaker 2: the crime thing is it's not just a sort of
• 2:52:33
  Speaker 2: public safety thing, it's also a class thing. Is they
• 2:52:37
  Speaker 2: have made working people less safe. Like if you look
• 2:52:42
  Speaker 2: at my neighborhood, the neighborhood that my working class grandparents
• 2:52:45
  Speaker 2: raised me in, it became less safe over time, and
• 2:52:51
  Speaker 2: really working class neighborhoods had much higher rates of violence,
• 2:52:56
  Speaker 2: much higher rates of carjackings and so forth. That happened
• 2:53:00
  Speaker 2: Biden's administration. That's not a coincidence, No, uh, anything else,
• 2:53:08
  Speaker 2: go by, go by, go by communion Joe, and we
• 2:53:11
  Speaker 2: can we can talk about religion and faith and the
• 2:53:14
  Speaker 2: commandments next time. But thanks for having me, man.
• 2:53:16
  Speaker 1: Thanks for being here. Appreciate it all right, Trap it
• 2:53:18
  Speaker 1: up by every buddy, great