Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The Dodger: Roger Rogerson's Confessions | Mark Dixon

Transcript

The Dodger: Roger Rogerson's Confessions | Mark Dixon · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Apodja Production.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Adam Shann. Roger Callub Rogerson, arguably Australia's most corrupt cop,
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: has been gone for more than a year.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Former Detective Roger Rogerson was today dismissed from the New
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: South Wales Police Force following a string of corruption allegations.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: He died while serving a life sentence for the murder
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: of drug dealer Jamie Gower.
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: The body of Jamie Gow has been recovered from waters
• 0:41
  Speaker 4: off the New South Wales coast way down with an
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: anchor chain.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: It was a cruel and callous execution inside a storage
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: unit and padstow in Sydney, Southwest on May twenty, twenty fourteen.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: He was shot twice at close range.
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: Two former police officers have been taken in for questioning.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I knew Roger for a decade and I will say
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: he was a charming, charismatic man, even if history will
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: show he was also an amoral and lethal individual. When
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I met Roger, he was a performer on the True
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Crime circuit doing live shows around the country with Mark
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Chopper Reid and Mark Jacker Jackson. Mark Chopper Reid has
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: become one of Australia's most in demand public speakers. My
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: guest today, Mark Hammer Dixon performed security duties for Roger
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: and Chopper and spent many days on the road with them,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: but he was far more than a bouncer or a
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: security type. Mark and Roger formed a close friendship. In fact,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: in the days after Roger killed Gow with another former cop,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Glenn McNamara, Roger went to stay with Mark Dixon at
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: his home in Queensland.
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: Glenn McNamara, a former New South Wales detective, was tonight
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: charged alongside Roger Rogerson with the murder of Jamie Gow.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: In hindsight, this was a chilling ex experience for Dixon
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: to see how cool and calm Roger was having committed
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: this cold blooded murder.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Roger Rogerson was today sentenced to life in prison for
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: the murder of Jamie Gal, closing the final chapter on
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: one of the most extraordinary and troubling careers in Australian
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: law enforcement history.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: And Mark Dixon has agreed to share memories of those
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: days and his relationship with the Dodger good.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: A Mark, Hello, Adam, how are you today?
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Very well? Indeed yourself?
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my top of the world. Mate.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: You haveful a gentleman and I'm very pleased to be
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: talking to you. I think you're one of the better
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: people I've met in my twenty five years of crime journalism.
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: You don't even have a criminal record. No I don't,
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: And you could have said one of the best looking.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we won't go too far.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, mate, it's a pleasure to be on the show.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Adam.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, pleasure to have you tell me? How did your
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: first meet Roger? What are your first memories?
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Make noy following.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: This bloke a long long time before I ever met him.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: I believe the actual time I really become interested was
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: when I read Eddie Smith's book. But I had seen
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: Roger on the TV before that year's before that, and.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Then one day I had an opportunity.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: I suppose you could say it was via Chopper when
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: I was looking after Chopper, but via one of the
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: comedians knew Roger very well and we got in touch.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Anyway.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: I went and met him in Sydney, down there, and
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: I suppose we just hit it off from the word go.
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: I was doing Bodyguarden for him security whatever anyone calls it,
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: and a bit of deck collecting together. But basically we
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: were good mates.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you knew his background, that he'd been accused
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: of killing Warren land Franchi, the drug dealer the eighties.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: There are other things, it'd been to jail for issues
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: to do with money laundering and so forth. What were
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: your impressions of him, because I mean by this time,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: I mean most people would have said, Roger's no longer
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: a copies more like a scaley where you know, on
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: the other side of the law.
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: Very very charming fella, very intelligent, and I suppose he's
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: very manipulative when he wanted to be as well. However,
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: we got along really really well. You know, you meet
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: the bloke who's been somewhat of a hero to me.
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: I used to see him as a dirty Harry that
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: used to guard around getting people at well. Society didn't
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: need these people, you know, in the scheme of things,
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: and I just saw him as like Australia's answered to
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: dirty Harry.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's a fair description because when
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: he started his career there was I guess, broad public
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: support for cleaning up the drug dealers, for dealing with
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: people in a pretty harsh way if they were on
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: that side of the law, and people didn't really question
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: the methods too much.
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: No different time. We're talking fifty five sixty years ago.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Up until forty five years ago, and Roger got involved
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: as a cadet.
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: He joined the police in nineteen fifty eight as a cadet.
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: I think it was nineteen sixty actually becoming sworn police officer.
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: I could be wrong with that date. I could be wrong,
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: but nineteen fifty eight is when he joined, which would
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: make him seventeen because he was born nineteen forty one.
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: Back then, he obviously got sworn in and did the
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: normal duties that a police officer would do then, street
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: beat and the traffic and whatnot. But he was aspiring
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: to be a detective. He always wanted to be a detective,
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: being as flamboyant and everything how he was, and particularly
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: good at putting together a brief of evidence and shorthand
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: and stuff like that. He caught the attention of some
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: big name detectives at the time, Ray Gunna, Kelly, Freddie Kray,
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: a couple of people like that. And though basically the
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: culture was back then you want to be detective, you
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: go along with us and you play by our rules
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: or you will spend the rest of you all days
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: in the traffic sport. Well, Roger wasn't having any bit
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: of that, and he followed these blokesully. These guys were well,
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: they were a generation before Roger and they were tough
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: old blokes, very tough old school. They took a quid
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: on the side, and Roger sort of fell into that culture.
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: As you say, I don't think he started out to
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: be taking money and that. I think it just became normal.
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: But you know, he done a lot of good as well.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Well he did, and I think he won the Peter
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: Mitchell Award, which is the highest on usapa's police could win.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: He was the golden boy. I guess probably you had
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: lots of questions for him, But I imagine you, as
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: you say, your hero worshiped him. You know, do you
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: ask him a lot of questions? Was he open about
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: his career?
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: He was very open with me though, even the first
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: day I met him. He picked me up at the
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: Sydney Airport and we were heading up to long Jetty,
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: which happened to be his holiday house that he bought.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: I think it was nineteen seventy eight.
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: We're heading up there, because he said, you can't talk
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: in the house at Padstow because everyone was listening, which
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: I fully understood. And anyway, he got up there and
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: the first thing I ever said to him what happened
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: there with Michael Drury? And he said, what do you
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: want to know that? I said, I'm just curious. I said,
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: you know, it's always fascinated me. The first thing he
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: said to me was Laurie pendergast Right.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: And you're talking about the shooting of undercover cop Michael
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Drury in nineteen eighty four. Yeah, in his house ninety
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: and eighty four in Chestswood. So that's the first question
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: you asked. It's pretty bold.
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: Well, I had to break the ice, and you know
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: I just said to him, Well, first of all, I said,
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: I'm a big fan. And I said, you know what, Roger,
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: I had have taken the bride and he laughed, that's
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: how I broke the ice. I said, I'd have taken
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: that money because I would have loved to have been
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: working with Roger as a copper back then. Jeez, I'm
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: just forty years too young. He said, I would have
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: fit right in too. Anyway. But he said to me, oh,
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: Laury Pendergast anyway, that's what he told me.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because over the years, Michael Drury has always believed
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: that it was here the Christopher Daley rent a kill
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: or Roger. And it's funny after Roger died, Mick switched
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: from saying it was flattery to saying it was Roger,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: mainly because of the shots two quick shots, double tap,
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: the way coppers shoot. But my response to that is
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: if it was Roger, Mick would have been dead.
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: In my opinion, well, I think Mick was close to death,
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: very close to this. And it's funny that you mentioned
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: that because Roger one other night.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Led his guard down with me.
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: He had a couple of drinks and we were at
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: Central Queensland in the town. We were doing a show
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: up there in dice Heart, believe it or not, just
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: me and him of the hotel room. Everyone else had
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: their own rooms with me and Roger, and he'd had
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: a few glasses of red after a few beers, and
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: he said, Chris, was that full of cocaine. He couldn't
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: hold the gun still, he said, I had to do it.
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: He led his guard down for that couple of seconds.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: That's what he told me. Anyway.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: And whether that's true or not, I don't don't know,
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: but I believe that story to be true.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Right because Laurie Prendergast, he's a possibility as well, by
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: the way, I mean, he was pretty willing. But he
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: disappeared not that long after that, and so you left
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: with Roger to tell the story. Chris Blanner is also dead.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: But that's interesting because when you get to know a bloke,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: you spend time with him in vehicles, you're having drinks
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: with him and so forth, and I think you're you're
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: the kind of fellow that could probably make him feel comfortable, you.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Know, absolutely, you know.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: And you've had a big dinner and a good little
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: show here in dice Art. Not much of a crowd
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: and dice Art, but we had a good time there,
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: and a couple of footballers and that with us, some
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: boxes and stuff. But me and Roger are in the
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: same room, and he said that to me. And by
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: the way he talks, and his sleep a lot too.
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: It says funny things, you know, like because I'm a
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: light sleeper, I don't sleep real good. And I heard
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: him say one night, actually it was the same night
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: he said, I'm seeing the brief and we're all fucked
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: as what he said any sleep Now, I.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Just started giggling, I'd start laughing.
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: But I believe that that night, I think he was
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: telling me the truth about that Michael Drury situation.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Did it unnerve you that he was prepared to confess
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: these crimes?
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: No, MA, you know what, not really because I always
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: suspected it. I always suspected that there.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: And he does trust you. He certainly trusted you to
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: the point where you're going and collecting debts with him.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: What's it like to collect a debt with Roger Rogerson?
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: Well, the sort of debts he was collecting, we're sort
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: of corporate debts with people or investors and stuff, and
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: people had done work and weren't paid for it, builders
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: and stuff like that.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: You'd rock up in the a room.
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: Just the prime example there years ago, one day and
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: I think it was two thousand and eight around there,
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: somewhere around there, walked into this people's apartment out there
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: in near Essendon Airport and you just walk in the room,
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: knock on the door. They are fully expecting us. He
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: walks in the room and you know what, it had
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: nothing to do with my presence, mate. But they made
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: Roger a cap uct and believe me, they signed a check,
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: a big check, very quickly, because the reputation proceeds him,
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: you know, and they're elderly people, and they just, you know,
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: we want this to be gone, and they couldn't get
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: him out of there quick enough.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: And I think he had a way of saying to
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: them with not in so many words, that you'd be
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: better off to do this quickly because the next visit
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: might not be so pleasant.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, exactly. And what he used to do.
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: And he taught me this because I've done a lot
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: of their collecting. He said, Mark, did you learn something there?
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: I said, oh, I did a little bit. I said,
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: you were very polite and everything. He said, Yeah, he said,
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: what you'd try and do with make them out that
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: you're doing them a favor because other people could come
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: and see you, whether it be bikey gangs or Italian
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: hit man or whatever. He says, I'm doing you a
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: favor here, and I'm being very polite and I'm asking
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: you to do this. But he's been saying it in
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: the way is like he's getting his message across. However, well,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: he knew exactly what he was doing. He just knew
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: without even raising his voice.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: He knew.
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: But his reputation did carry a hell of a lot
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: of weight, you know, this age.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: If he was around now and tried that on with young.
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: People, I don't think it would work because they don't
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: know who he is a lot of people that are
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: young these days they don't know who Chopper is.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I think you're wrong there. I think Chop was becoming
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: the new ned Kelly. But that's another series we're doing
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: with you. But you were close to both of them,
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: and they also got on very well as well, I believe.
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe they had a couple of little TIFFs,
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: but sorted it out.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what sort of TIFFs, Oh, just.
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: Arguments about different people who had passed away and that
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: sort of thing.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: You know, what had happened?
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: How tall Neddie Smith was and how Chopper always insisted
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: that Neddie Smith was about five foot ten and Rogers
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: said he was six foot five.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: I never met the bloke, but.
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: Going or photos against Graham Abbo Henry and Neddie and
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: myself with Graham Henry, I'm six foot one and a half.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: I reckon Neddie Smith would about six foot three.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Mark Reid Chopper had a tendency to
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: diminish people, didn't he. I mean he liked to hang
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: a bit of shit on it.
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, absolutely, especially you know if they were in
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: jail or they were dead or something like that. But yeah,
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: I think Neddie Smith would have been a real bloody handful,
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: to be.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Honest with you.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: He was My dad was a psychiatrist and he used
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: to go and see Nettie Smith in jail. He found
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: him terrifying and remorseless a moral I mean, he could
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: well imagine obviously, in the aftermath of Warren land Franchi's killing,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Nettie is then tasked with strangling Sally Anne Huckstep, who
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: was making a lot of noise in the media, and
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: drowning her in a pond in Centennial Park. So that
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: was the stamp of Nettie Smith. So in those days,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: things had to be done, and they were done, and
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Neddie was the man for it. Did Roger talk about
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Nettie much at all?
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah? He did.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: He goes, you know, he'd be in a pub when
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: he was in his heyday when the flower Lady come
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: around here by every woman in the Bubba rose and
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: hand them out, and he said he was extremely charming.
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: He said women loved him. He had these big, long arms,
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: and he could lean out and fight from six foot
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: away and was a really good street fighter. But he
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: said to me that Graham Abbo Henry was twice a
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: street fighter, that Needdie Smith was. He reckons ambo pleany
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: but no problem at all.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Well, Graham will be very pleased to hear that. I
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: think he likes to trade on that reputation even to
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: this day.
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: I told Graham that that Roger said that, And I said,
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: the first time I met Roger, I was sitting on
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: the passenger side of that silver falcon that was used
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: in that murder there at Padstow.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: He just picked me up from the airport. He said,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: how do you think I'd go with Eddie Smith?
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: He says, I think he'd flog you, young fellow, fair
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: enough things.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: For your honesty, because you'd had a couple of decades
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: of bouncing by this time. That's how you came into
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: the picture.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: I started bouncing in nine a ninety as a kid.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: I was sixteen and ten.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: I did twenty seven years of bouncing all up twenty
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: five years full time in a couple of years of
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: the casual to help out, and you throw in amongst
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: that bodyguarding and stuff like that, and oh fairly big career.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you weren't here journey seventy kilos when you started.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Well, you was a kid.
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: I was seventy kilo and I filled out to be
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: six one and one hundred. But and my peak of
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: security work, I was about eighty eight ninety kila where
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: I could move around pretty well and everything on fat now,
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: but about eighty eight kilo and six foot one and
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: trained every day and had a few ring fights, not
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: a hell of a lot, and there was no well
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: beat by any means.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: But I'd had a hell of a lot of street fights.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Because you'd come from a private school background, all this
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: type of thing. How did you end up down this road?
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Well, I had an accident when I was eight a
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: months of age.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: I crawled off the veranda at my parents' place in
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: the northern suburb of Brisbane called Asphley. I crawled over
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: a railing and fell once stone already down onto the
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: concrete driveway. I suffered epileptic seizures after that until I
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: was about fifteen medicated and everything like that with a
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: powerful drug called di lantern, and dial Antern's actually not
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: meant to be used anymore these days. And it was
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: a pink liquid that I used to drink. It was
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: very powerful. Turned into a zombie. So my informative years
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: at school, I couldn't study anything because the drug turns
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: into a bloody zombie. And I sort of could handle
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: myself a bit and been in boxing gyms with my
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: uncle or since I was about six, and I thought, well,
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: I'll turn my hand to this because all of these
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: people love these bounces back in that day and age,
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: they loved them. And I thought, oh, the girls and everything,
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: I'll get into this. And I did, all right, Yeah,
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: it's funny. It's funny you should mention epilepsy.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: And I had the same experience when I was about
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: eleven and I was running along the footpath outside my
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: grandmother's house carrying a sleeping bag and I stepped on
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: the sleeping bag hit the deck hard on the head.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: About a year later, I had one grand mile epileptic
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: fit and I was supposed to be on die lantern
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: for a couple of years. Same experience tamed me into
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: a zombie. So I said, stuff, I'm stopping taking it.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: I couldn't stand it. When I went back to the
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: doctor eight en months later, I confessed that one was wild.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: She said, what are you doing?
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Would you know?
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: You take the bill and the docks had listened. That
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: was the best thing you could have done. I wouldn't
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: have advised it, but clearly yours was a one off,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: but you suffered it quite consistently.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Early had a few big episodes with it, but it
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: was there.
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: If they didn't treat it with the dire lantern, it
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: would happen all the time. I didn't have a fit
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: where you like that. I had a fit where you
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: just stare it like your left I'd go up that
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: way and just stay and you didn't.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Know what was going on. You couldn't hold anything or
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: do anything like that.
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: They were called focal seizures, but they would last a
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: fair while, and at one point there one was that bad.
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: One time my mother said I stopped breathing for about
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: three minutes with one of them. Was a bad, bad thing.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: So my informative years were wasted with this drug. But
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: I had to have it, believe it. I look the
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: doctor who was treating me. His name is doctor Appleton.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: They had done scans and stuff, and he said I
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: was born with an extremely thick skull, an abnormally thick skull,
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: which probably saved my life. But yeah, I grew out
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: of it at about fifteen and then I got better.
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: But yeah, very very powerful drug. And mate, you just
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: you don't even know where the moods are there. You
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: don't even know what mood you're in. Yeah, I was
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: lucky to survive it. That's how it goes to your
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: question of I had I end up doing what I did?
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: My uncle was a pro fighter and I fancied myself
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: a bit when I was young. Anyway, I got into
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: bouncing through people that I knew and it went from there.
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: And really, if that accident hadn't happened with epilepsy, I
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: wouldn't be here now.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: I would be a solicitor or an accountant or.
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: Something like that, rather than being looking at I have
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: to chop a read Roger Rogerson.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Roger, you really formed a close relationship with Roger. We've
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: said that, and over time he told you more things
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: which I think we can talk about now. Some of
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: them are a bit sensitive, but I think at the
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: passenger try most of the main players are dead. What
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: sort of things did he share with you.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: Well, let's talk about a very famous case or infamous
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: I should say, the nineteen seventy three fire bombing of
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: a nightclub in Brisbane called the Whiskey or geoge tragic thing.
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: Fifteen people dead, a lot of people injured, stuff like that,
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: very notorious case. Anyway, at the time, Roger was an
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: up and coming detective well probably pretty well known by then,
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: and he was flying to Brisbane with Noel Morey Tager
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: I forget his name, the detective that he was senior.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: He's dead now he would be ninety five of beers alive.
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: He was sent up with Roger to investigate this thing
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: because they believed at the time they were Sydney criminals
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: that had done this, starting up a protection racket. Roger
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: had pinched these two other criminals, Jimmy Finch and James Stewart.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Actually the other way around, John Stewart and James Finch.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: And years later, you know this has gone back. You've
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: got to remember that this happened there. I think it
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: was March nineteen seventy three. I was born July nineteen
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: seventy three, so I wasn't even born when this happened.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: Roger said to me one night, I was asking him
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: about the case, why he was brought up and everything.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: He said, well, at the time, my confessions with people
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: or written statements carried a lot of weight. And he said,
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: I'm here to tell you that those two blokes never
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: did it.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: They're innocent.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: Anyway, he says two other fellas, one happened to be
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: a licensing detective and another heavy crimson from Sydney. He
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: did let on that the detective from Brisbane, well from
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: Brisbane basically, but he never told me any names with that.
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: He just led on that that's what had happened. He said,
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: he basically had given a brief of evidence that was unsigned.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: And they are confession by these two blokes, And he
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: said they are innocent. They went to jail, so he's
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: their reason for climbing on the roof of Bloody Bogo
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: roade jail or swallowing staples and doing all sorts of
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: things that I protest Hunger stripes. And because well what
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: he told me that night, I truly believe it.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: I don't think they did it. I think he wrote
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: them up.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: You think Roger did.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Roger did that or ninety.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Percent of it anyway, Yeah, because they had an in
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: quest in twenty twenty one and Roger had been in
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: jail for about seven years, and I think they wanted
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: him to give evidence in it. I'm not sure if
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: he did or not.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: No, he didn't. He refused all of that well to
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: come up to Brisbane. Anyway. I could have come forward
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: then and said something, but I wouldn't have done that.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: But now he's dead, I can say he told me.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: Otherwise, it wasn't those two blokes convicted. It was different people.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: There you go, and then you also had something to
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: say about Donald McKay as well.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Well. He didn't let on much about that for years
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: to me.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: And one day when I was working up in Gladston,
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: I was on my way up to Gladston, from Brisbane
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: to Gladston, I pulled up in a town called GIMPI.
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: I was in the red roost of buying some food
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: and on the TV here it pops up. There's about
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: twenty thirteen they were doing a search for Don McKay's
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: body on a property down there.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Nig Griffith. Anyway, I wrung him up. I said, I.
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: See that they're looking for Don McKay there, and he
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: said to me Mark, he said, they can dig all
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: they want.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: He said, they won't find it.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: They're looking in the wrong state for a start, I said,
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: oh really, and he said, well.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: The cane farmers of North Queensland and the Great Rows
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: down there and near Griffith had a close relationship.
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: He said, just put it that way, he said, but
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: they're looking in the wrong state.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: So was he hinting that McKay's body was actually up
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: in Queensland?
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Then? Well?
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: I did ask him about it a bit later on
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: after that. He said, what do they do with sugar
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: cane every.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Season in Queensland? I said, they burn it off?
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: He said, so, what do you think it'd be now
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: after forty five years or whatever it was at the time.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Forty years? Said probably, as he said, well there he go.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he had a lot of connections.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but that's
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: just what he told me a lot of the time.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: I think he was getting some stuff off his chest.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I wish you'd stayed awake more in the night
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: and got more of his you know, sleep talking. You
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: might have solved a few more murders and things. Who knows.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: He just basically he just said, mate, they're looking in
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: the wrong state. And when he first said that to
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: me that day, when I rung, I said they're looking
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: for him, and he just said, you know, I see that.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: He said they're looking in the wrong state. I took
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: it as pretty serious.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you could. I think you could. Indeed
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: a little bit cryptic, but I think nonetheless he had knowledge,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: he had connections, and Roger would make it his business
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: to find these things out, isn't You also had an
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: interesting interlude where you worked with Roger and Roberta Williams
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: of Melbourne Gangland War fame. What was that like?
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: It was interesting.
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: Roberta's quite the character, married to Carl Williams for a long.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Time and very notorious.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: I think Roberta's got her hard side to her. She's
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: a hard lady, but I think that she could be
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: very caring and understanding it other times too. Roger suggested
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: to me that we take her on tour because I
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: was only getting into public speaking back then. He said
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: it might add a bit more culture to the thing
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: rather than just relying on Roger to draw a crowd.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: And it was just when Underbelly had come out, so
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: Roberta was a pretty big name.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: She was a household name.
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: And anyway, we took up to Innes Park golf Club,
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: which is near Bunderberg in Queensland for the first one
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: and I said, Roberta, how much of this have you done?
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: And she said no first time. I said, well, all right.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: Anyway, we picked her up at the airport in a
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: borrowed limousine and Roger was driving and he had the
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: chauffeur's cap on, which he thought was very funny, picked
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: her up, drove her back to the hotel. We had
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: a big room there and everything, and I said, Roberta,
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: apart from me being the MC, I'll sit beside you
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: and just see you through it. I'll give you a
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: few questions and you can talk about it, and when
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: you start slipping up, I'll shoot another question at you.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: And she actually did very well. I've got the footage
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: of it, the whole footage. She spoke for about thirty
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: minutes at least, and she did very very well.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: For her first time.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: And we made a little bit of money out of it,
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: not as much as what she'd like, but she did
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: all right, you know, but robert is quite interesting, you know,
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: and she's wrung me up one day.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: This is years ago, and she.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Said, Mark, she said, do you want to do a
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: boxing promotion together? And I said, yeah, what have you
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: got in mind? She said, well, how about you have
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: a few fights there, a few different fighters, and then
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: I'll be the main event and I'll fight the lady
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: who played me in Underbelly. Oh ah, I said, yeah,
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: that's a very interesting, great idea. I said, but how
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: about this. I said, how about we get Chappelle Colby
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: here and you can fight Chappelle Colby.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: That would draw some publicity. And she said, oh, do
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: you reckon? I can win?
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: I said, I'm sure you'll win. Roberta. Roberta's got a
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: bit of fire in a belly.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: No, she does. I mean Cat Stewart, who played Roberta
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: in underbel I don't think she couldn't punch a hole
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: in a wet tissue box. But Chappelle, Yeah, it might
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: be a fair fight, but I'd still back Roberta.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: I'd back Roberta every day of the week with Roger.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: That I mean, I've got a soft spot for Roberta
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: as well. And we go back twenty years to the
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: gang lame were and so forth, and I think she'd
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: probably agree with me when I say that she's got
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: a temper. And then she and Roger did have a
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: bit of a falling out.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Roger, he was clean the place, fanatic, even a
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: hotel room.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: He liked everything clean. That's the copper coming out of him.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: And anyway, Roberta and myself had been up the road
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: to grab some fish and chips and a couple of
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: burgers and everything like that, because it's just a big pennhouse.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: And Roger had really cleaned the coffee table and the
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: lounge and that really well spotless, even though it wasn't
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: he placed to do that. Cleaner could have done it. Anyway,
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: Roberta come back, sat in the lounge, put a feet
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: up on the coffee table, had a hamburger and a
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: few chips, left the wrapper on the bloody on the
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: coffee table.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: She had the main bedroom, went off into the main
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: bedroom to.
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: Have a shower and Rogers, yeah, look at this fucking rat.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: I just cleaned this.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: You had the fucking dirty, fucking rat and everything like this.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: You know, he's this grubbing and cleaning and everything got it.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Back in order.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: But I think they had a bit of an argument
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: about that's just when the GFC hit and not a
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: lot of people had ready cash to buy memorabiliair and stuff.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: And I think Roberta thought she's going to make ten
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: grand a night or something, and she didn't, and unfortunately,
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: because I only lost my ear drum because of it.
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: And Roger said to her calm down and sort of
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: pulled her in the line. But it was Roger's idea
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: to bring her along because she's fresh in the thing
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: with underbelly, which was a good idea. But look, she's
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: got a great points tough. She's really nice lady's at times, so.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: That some of our enemies might not agree, but that's
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: fair enough, I think, going listen, I think she's a survivor,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: and so was Roger. Roger was a survivor, and it's
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: always amazed me that he got involved with Glenn McNamara
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: in that drug rip off of Jamie gow. You know,
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: I've been speaking to Roger some weeks before this had happened.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: We were talking about Christopher Dale Flannery. How Flannery's downfall
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: was that he was a barrier of bodies and that
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: he said, there's no need to ever bury your body
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: on the land when you had the ocean open to you.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: And of course that's kind of what happened with Jamie
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: gow And I can't help but think that McNamara must
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: have been in charge of the disposal, because the way
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: that gau was disposed. Sorry to the listeners here, you
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: know week's stomachs. But Roger said to me back in
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: that call, he said, well, what you got to do
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: is you got to open up the stomach cavity so
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: all the gases disappear and then the body won't bloat
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: and come back to the surface again. And of course
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: they didn't do that, or at least whoever did the
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: disposal didn't do that, and Jamie Gow's body floated up
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: with the surface on the end of an anchor chain
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: that he was put down there with. All this was happening,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: we have to go back to the chronology, I guess.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: But May twenty twenty fourteen is when McNamara and Roger
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: meet Jamie Gowett the storage unit and they murder him.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: There and they steal two point seven kilos of ice.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: And I guess at this time, Roger thinks he's free
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: and clear. He's got an arrangement to come and meet you.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: What happened, well, I invited him up.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: It would have been the week before because I had
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: an interclub boxing tournament going on at my boxing gym,
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: so my gym versus a couple others that were there,
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: and I invited him up as a drawcard for people
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: to come and meet him. And I paid for his
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: plane tickets all of that, and we were having seafood
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: and beers and everything, and I said, bring some books.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: You can sell a few books as well. Mate.
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: He did that on the Tuesday, I think was the
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: twentieth by memory, but he was up here in Queensland.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: I think my uncle picked him.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: Up at the airport on the Friday, and then the
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: Saturday with my uncle, and the Sunday was when we
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: had the thing at the boxing gym. Because I'd just
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: gotten back from Gladstone and my partner had set up
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: the gym ready for a show. You couldn't tell that
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: he had done what he had done earlier in the week.
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: You could not tell he was that poker faced and cold.
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: He was just acting normal basically, and you couldn't tell
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: what he'd been involved. And then Sunday night, after the
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: show at the fights back at my uncle's place under
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: the Tree of Knowledge, about seven o'clock, you know, everyone's
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: got a gutfull of wine and beer or whatever, and
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: he took a phone call. It was Anne, his wife, yeah,
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: saying that the house was being raided.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: It could have been by Paul Kenny as well.
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: I don't know, but I believe it was Anne ringing
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: him saying, what's going on the house has been raided
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: and they're taking your car away.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Well, he didn't tell any of us at that stage.
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: He just went a bit quiet for a minute and
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: had a couple more beers and was back to normal,
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: and then he said.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: Look, I'm going to bed Fellers.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: He'd been perfectly happy those days. He was with you normal.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, very very normal.
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: I couldn't tell that was anything wrong, and I knew
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: him pretty well, you know, like he just you never
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: would have picked it.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: I guess he would have been happy because he and
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: McNamara were sitting on about I don't know, about a
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: million dollars worth of ice now nearly three kilos of ice,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: and so I guess you're thinking all his financial problems
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: are over.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: But he would have been thinking that.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think the way it was done, people
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: often say, oh, how could Roger have been caught, and
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: it was sort of bad luck that he was caught.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you know the young but it
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: was only the fact that Roger's car and McNamara's car
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: were picked up near the storage unit where Jamie Gower
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: met them. There was another police operation underway on something
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: else at the time, and they picked up Roger's car
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: and they put it together with Jamie Gow's friends are saying, well,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Jamie GOUI supposed to go and meet Glenn McNamara. He
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: hasn't turned up. So they start putting it together and
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: they work out and they follow the CCTV cameras all
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: the way to the storage unit, and as you've seen
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: the footage, of course, there's McNamara drives up, he smuggles
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: go into the unit. Roger drives up not that long afterwards.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: You see him waddling in there and he's only in
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: there for a few minutes and he comes out. But
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: people say, well, how could he have done it under
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: the CCTV cameras, must be so stupid. But when I
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: checked with the management of the storage place, they said, oh,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: the cameras cycle every week, so unless you knew what
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: you were looking for, it would have been erased. And
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: it was just unfortunate for Roger and fortunate for the
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: police that they managed to get the footage before it
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: was a race, which was so damning. And that was
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: the end of it. And the other thing to remember
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: is that the drugs were in McNamara's vehicle underneath his
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: unit there, and the idea was that a tow truck
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: driver would come in tow the car away to a
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: wrecking yard. A third party would come and take the
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: drugs out of the car. So there was a quite
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: well planned scenario, but it all came undone with the
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: CCTV cameras. And so I think, while he's with you,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: he's probably feeling pretty confident this has all gone pretty well.
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'd say so, yes. Really, he didn't let
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: on anything. He was acting very normal, just like Roger
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: was always being until that call. Then he went quiet
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: and he said he was going to bed, and I
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: went home to my place, which is only five hundred
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: meters up the street. You've been there, you know, and
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: get up in the morning. I woke up at about
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: eight o'clock, turned the TV on Channel nine News. It's
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: the biggest news in Australia at the time.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: My uncle.
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: Let I assume my uncle on the TV down at
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: the gym, saying, well, I don't know what's going on.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: He's just wasn't here. Then it comes out pretty quickly.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: You just think, Jesus, what's he been involved? And then
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: I started thinking, you know, he had a couple of
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: mini strokes and everything.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Maybe he wasn't thinking right and he's got himself pinched, and.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: All sorts of things were going through my head. Anyway,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: he rings that afternoon on.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: The Monday afternoon and he said.
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: To me, oh, how are you going. He didn't tell
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: me where he was. He just rung off another number
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: and I said, Roger, there's coppers sitting off my gym.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: He goes, mate, I think they're going to charge me,
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: and boy, then I knew it was a murder charge
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: because of the TV. It just st all fell apart
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: from them. But that's the last words he said to me.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Was made. I think they're going to charge me, and
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: then basically it was really weird. Then the big couple.
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: There was one tall detective from down in New South
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: Wales turned up that night. He's big fee bit taller
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: than me and he just walked straight up to the
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: door of the gym. He said, hey, Mark, and he
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: actually shook my hand. He said, where's Roger And I said,
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: you're about twelve hours too late.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: He's not here.
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: And then he said, where's Banger, which is my uncle
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: down the back and the other boxing ring he was,
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: And they grabbed Buger and took him back to his
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: house where Roger was sleeping at the previous night.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: And I had the.
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: Place surround it already and took him in and they said,
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: that's where he was sleeping.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: He's gone. They searched the joint where it went, but.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: There was nothing to find.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Nothing to find, mate, he was gone.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: H So how did you feel having you know, you've
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: been with him these days and then you hear about
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: this murder and the disposal of the body at sea,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: and you must think.
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: In my heart at the time when it came out,
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: like I thought, yeah, he's done that. You look back
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: at how Michael Drury was shot two bullets. Same thing
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: with Jamie Gower, two bullets. And I think that's how
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: they trained the police back then, the swap team or
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: whatever they were, Bang bang. This kid's died of that,
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: I thought. But then Glenn McNamara is a copper. But
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: I didn't think Glenn would have the balls to do it.
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: I didn't think that at all. Some people have asked
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: me do you think Roger done And I said, you know,
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: I think Roger did it, yes, but as you know,
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: a detective when you were interviewing me for that TV show,
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: we're talking to that detective, is it all right? There?
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Mentioned his name now.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Sure, Clyte Small. He's a seat now, good friend of mine.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: Clive come up to me after you finished interviewing me.
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: He said, hey, Mark, here are you going? And very nice, father,
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: very polite, and he said, tell me, Mark, what do
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: you think happened back then? And I said, well, mate,
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: I think Roger shot him. And he just said to me, mate,
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: I'm here to tell you he didn't. He goes the
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: other bloke did it. I don't know how he knew that.
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: And then he said to me at the boat ramp
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: he said Roger didn't even get in the boat. He
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: was not on the boat at all. He stayed at
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: the boat ramp the whole time. And I went, oh shit.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: He said to me, Mark, how long did you work
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: for Roger? I said, I'm not longer. He said in
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: the nineties. I said, no, it's not that far back.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: And I went, oh yeah, and he said, oh that's good,
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: said because we're going to have to kill him.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: And I went, oh, well I did.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: Maybe he was just having a joke with me or
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: don't know, but I took that as he goes, how
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: long you can tam for?
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: I said, I'm getting on the plane and the bed
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: of the our mate that's on the plane. That god
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: a am.
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: But I don't know how true that is that he
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: said that. Maybe he just said that to stir me up.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: I don't know, but he said to me, he goes,
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: Roger didn't do it, mate, basically.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I certainly have my doubts. And of
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: course in the trial they both accused each other. It
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: was a classic cutthroat defense where one would accuse the
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: other and therefore creating a little bit of element of
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: doubt for both of them. But I think it's equally
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: possible that Glenn McNamara did it. I think he was
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: extremely greedy, he needed money, and he was the one
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: that had had done all the preparatory work. I think
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: there'd been twenty plus conversations, there'd been meetings and all
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: kinds of things between him and Gow and he was
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: seeing a massive payday. And Roger never shared his thoughts
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: to anybody with this, and if he's anybody out there,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: he did, please get in touch. But I can't help
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: but think that if Roger had been the prime mover
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: of everything, they would never have found Jamie GAA's body.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: I don't believe so.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: As I said before, the conversation we had was around
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: preparing the body for a disposal, but no whatever. Fine,
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: And of course in the end, whoever did the disposal
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: just attaches Jamie GAA's body without any dissections to a
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: cheap anchor chain, drops him down there and then you know,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: he's swaying in the water for a few days. Of course,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: the chain snaps and he comes back to this made
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: a big comeback. So that was the end of it.
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: See, I don't believe that Roger would have made a mistake.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: Let the body float up. But I never met Glenn McNamara.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: I don't believe I did, unless he was at Roger's
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: book launched years ago, but I don't recall meeting him.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: The way you come across early on the TV to
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: me was that he didn't have the balls to do it,
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: and Roger did. He's a proven pillar. But however, what
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: Clive said to me was totally different.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: And Clyde was a man of great integrity, so I
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: would put some story in what he was saying. He
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: wasn't there to take the piss out of you or anything.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: But I guess with Roger's incarceration it sort of ended
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: your period of time in the racy world of the underworld,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: if you like. Because you'd, I mean, Roger had brought
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: you to Melbourne, You'd met Mick Gattter, you'd meck Jimmy Beasley,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: the killer of Donald McKay. So for a guy who
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: was not a criminal and meeting your heroes, it was
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: an extraordinary time for you.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Oh you know.
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: And I met a lot of good people along the way,
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: and very interesting people, and like Mick Gattter, I found
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: to be a terrific fellow, very generous very nice to me.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't like to get on his bad side. However,
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: he was very very nice to meet, charming and everything.
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: And Graham Aybo Henry's just a gentleman. I know he's
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: got a pass, but me and Graham have never had
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: a cross word. We've always been good mates. And he
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: just a lovely fellow. There's a few of them that
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: you know, you definitely. I've just been in a position
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: where I suppose that they were sort of much done
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: with their career at the time. They're all twenty odd
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: years older than me, and I was in the security
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: industry and bodygarden and what not and writing books and
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: doing whatnot. And I just got along with these blocks
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: and I found them all to be very nice fellas.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as you say, you went on the wrong side
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: of them, and was on the wrong side. And maybe
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Roger's career wasn't quite done because you know, I heard
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: the dream of the Gangland War from my contacts here
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: in Melbourne, that Roger was down here looking for killing
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: work because he thought he could get close to Carl
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Williams because of the hero worshiping factor. Can I remember
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Carl used to tell me, oh, can you introduce me
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: to chop a read. I said, well, I probably could,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: you know, and this type of thing, and he is
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: as much starstruck with those sort of people as yourself,
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: you know. So, I mean, Roger could have dispatched Carl easier,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: I reckon and saved quite a few lives.
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: But oh, Roger very very capable of that. And I
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: believe that he's total count his total body count. And
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: I'm not being rude or anyone do any of his
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: family here, But I don't think a lot of it's
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: come to light.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot more there. I just truly
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: believe that.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: I think you're right, and maybe in the future people
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: will come forward and finish those stories, complete the body count.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: But listen, so what are you doing now? Like you're
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: right out of that stuff now?
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, these days, I'm just a humble truck driver.
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: Had a couple of books out been mentioned in your book,
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: and sees a Campbell's book and a few others. And
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: you never know, one day you might write a book
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: about a few stories about me, Adam.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: You never know.
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: Me and Choppa made a documentary. I haven't released it
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: yet to the public. We'll see how that happens, what goes.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: It's called legends and lunatics and able to see what
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: happens with that in the future. But I've got other
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: people there that want to make a bit of a
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: movie based on my books in my career and a
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: bit of Chopper and a bit of Roger there, which could
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: be very interesting.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: And you know, we'll just see how it gays.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Because quite apart from this period of you know, celebrity
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: crooks and so forth, you had these years of bouncing
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: and there were some pretty traumatic moments, things that have
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: stayed with you, like even one time when someone tried
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: to set you on fire.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was cleaning up a fairly hard pub in
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: Brisbane back then. This is twenty five years ago, and
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: back then I was pretty fearless and I can handle
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: myself a bit. I was good at cleaning out pubs
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: that needed cleaning out. And anyway, the few of the
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: locals natives didn't like it. Then they doused me in
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: fuel and a manager doused the manager in fuel as well.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: And tried to set us on fire.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: It just so happened though, that day that the bit
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: lighter that he was holding to light us up. Now
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: this gentleman had one of those you know where you
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: hold that on your throat to speak, one of those
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: machines that he couldn't speak without the aid of that.
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: So he had that in his pocket and he's doused
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: to some fuel with coke models full of fuel. Then
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: he's got a lighter in one hand and the thing, you.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: Know, I'll whake you up.
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: And in the meantime the lighter has become that doused
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: in fuel that it wouldn't strike, And that was the
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: only thing that saved it.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: It would not strike.
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: If you put a bit lighter in fuel, it won't
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: enough fuel on, it won't light well.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: And also had he managed to light up, would lit
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: himself up as well.
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well he doused himself in fuel as well. He
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: doused himself in the bit of fuel as well. But
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: just so happened. The timing of it was a couple
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: of coppers were walking past. Undercover coppers come run and
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: in saw it was going on, grabbing the Channel seven
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: news is driving past and seeing something the fiber gad
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: turned up and chasing around. But you can imagine the
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: scene out the front of a busy part of a
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: hard pub. Another manager they're chasing me and the manager
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: around with a fi extinguished in case we get lit.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: And a native fellow.
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: He's got a lighter, wondering White Way work. He's Covenant
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: Fuel and there's people everywhere and this has happened to
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: bloody one o'clock on a Thursday afternoon, you know, in
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: West Enden Brisbane and mate. It was fairly serious, you know.
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: It was on the news and everything. And my mother
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: was down in Melbourne at the time with a conference
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: there and she's seen it on the news. She rings
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: me up and says, what have you done this time?
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: And all this sort of stuff, and it was national
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: news at the time. Anyway, the bloke will charge with
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: a couple of counts of attempted murder, but he got off.
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: He was charged with two counts of attempted murder. They
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: dropped that because the attempted murder is a very hard
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: charged to prove.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: So what they've charged.
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: Him with in the end was attempt to create grievous
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: bodily harm with an explosive liquid I think was the term.
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: So when it come to the court date, the magistrate said, well,
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: I don't believe Fuel's explosive. I think it's combustible. And
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: that one word, god, he it's a point of law,
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: they call it. And that one thing got this bloke
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: off completely. He walked out of there completely free.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: I was a bit let down by the justice system
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: with that. But if I saw the bloke now, I'd say,
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: I'm not mad at him. I've forgiven him long, long
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: time ago. I got over it. If I saw him now,
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: I'd say, listen, I'll buy your drink if you tell
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: me why you did it, exactly, why you picked me out,
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: you know. But yeah, I haven't found him since so.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Well, if he's if he's listening, Mark's ready for a reunion.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: He's always been a bright spark.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, Thank you so much for your memories. It's
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: fascinating to see your brush with fame and your surviving.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: You didn't You didn't end up going to jail or
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: anything happening to you. You finish your career with no
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: criminal record. It's a good achievement, it is. I think
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: I've done quite well.
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know what, it is always a pleasure
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: anyone listening on here. I thank you for listening to
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: my story, and I thank Adam for having me on
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: the show.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: It's always a great experience.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. And you've still got a book
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: people can buy, Mark Hammer Dixon.
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's called The Hammer the Book, and it's called
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: Bash for Cash.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: That's the first one.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: At the moment, there were plenty of them out there,
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: but we sold out of him years ago, fifteen thousand
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: copies we did. Of the first one that sold out,
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: he did a reprint and believe it or not, in
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: the twenty twenty two flooding up here in Brisbane, the
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: warehouse went under. There was three thousand on one pellet,
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: three thousand of another.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Pellet ready to go out.
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: They completely went underwater, joking in a flash flood. But
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: since then I've written one myself, the first one out
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: of ghost writer wrote the second one called More from
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: the Door, and I've been told that's a lot better read.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: So yeah, you have to see me the manuscript and
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: I can give you some feedback, buddy. But atflot pleasure
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: TONI you mate.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Good talking to you, see you, mate.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: Cheers The Hammer Dixon on his days with Mark Chopper,
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Red and Roger Rogerson. That's a really interesting point that
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: Mark raises about who actually shot Jamie gown. Also who
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: shot Mick Drury. I guess we'll never know. Roger's taking
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: those secrets to the grave. Always people out there with
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: some sort of information on these things. So if you
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: know someone who knows someone, tell them to get in touch.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: You always send me an email Adam Channer writer at
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: gmail dot com. Ory. If you want to report a crime,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: trust me, you always call crime. Stoper was one of
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: a hundred Triple three, Triple zero. I'd love to hear
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: from you. It's always confidential, but call me first. Would
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: you mind send me the email? This has been Adam Chaffer,
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what pod shape
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: really cares about. Right now, There's thousands of people listening
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: to this show and our other true Crimes, and they're
• 47:07
  Speaker 5: completely engaged. More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts
• 47:10
  Speaker 5: each week. If you've ever thought about advertising your business
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: in a podcast, there's a link to reach out in
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: the show notes, or head to podshape dot com to
• 47:19
  Speaker 5: book a free call.