Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Woman hears baby cub bear crying in trap, gets jail time sentence

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Woman hears baby cub bear crying in trap, gets jail time sentence · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, an animal rights activist who
0:13
Speaker 1: helped to free a bear from a trap, will spend
0:15
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks in jail. Catherine McCartney, who's from Vernon,
0:19
Speaker 1: is appealing the sentence. However, she and another man helped
0:22
Speaker 1: the young bear escape back in October. Those traps were
0:24
Speaker 1: put in place after some nearby residents say bears charged
0:27
Speaker 1: at them on two separate occasions. You are hearing from
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Speaker 1: our friends. It needs to all of them New Jersey.
0:32
Speaker 1: I'm all about everybody doing a little bit of probation.
0:36
Speaker 1: I don't think it hurts anybody, and maybe a little
0:38
Speaker 1: jail time once in a while. But wait a minute.
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Speaker 1: This lady freeze a crying beer cub from a trap
0:47
Speaker 1: and she gets jail time sentence what wait, well, hold on, Jackie,
0:53
Speaker 1: you're here in the studio with me, Jackie Howard. Aren't
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Speaker 1: there murderers and rapists and drug dealers and lester's walking
1:00
Speaker 1: around free right now? Okay? And she gets ya all time.
1:04
Speaker 1: I mean, see Grays this Descrime Stories. Thank you for
1:07
Speaker 1: being with us and joining you right now. An all
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Speaker 1: star panel starting with the New Jersey woman who gets
1:15
Speaker 1: jail sentence for freeing a crying baby bear cub. Katherine
1:21
Speaker 1: McCartney also with me, Mark Nigglehout, the man who helped
1:26
Speaker 1: her free the beera cub. Doris Lynn, director of Legal Affairs,
1:28
Speaker 1: Animal Protection League, New Jersey, doctor Gray Stafford, our friend,
1:32
Speaker 1: animal trainers, zoologists, host of Zoologic podcast, Penny Douglas fur
1:38
Speaker 1: longtime attorney and animal activists and joining me right now.
1:42
Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life,
1:46
Speaker 1: the CSI behind the Casey Anthony trial on Amazon. Rob
1:50
Speaker 1: Mleski Robin, How did a lovely lady with no record,
1:55
Speaker 1: no rap sheet, no nothing, end up with jailed time
2:00
Speaker 1: for freeing a baby bear cub? Well, here's the story, Nancy.
2:04
Speaker 1: For full disclosure, I am from New Jersey. I was
2:07
Speaker 1: born there. I've been dealing with, you know, bears and
2:10
Speaker 1: deer and fox and wild turkeys that would attack the
2:15
Speaker 1: cars on my parents' driveway and gnaw at the rubber tires.
2:19
Speaker 1: So animals are a real problem in the garden state.
2:23
Speaker 1: That all said, Now, wait a minute, and wait a minute.
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Speaker 1: I imagine Rob in Wilensky, that the animals would say,
2:28
Speaker 1: people are a real problem in the garden state, they
2:32
Speaker 1: part their cars, we have to go gnaw on them.
2:34
Speaker 1: I mean, it never ends with these people. Why won't
2:36
Speaker 1: they go away? We were here first, you see where
2:39
Speaker 1: I'm coming from. So other than the wild turkeys gnawing
2:44
Speaker 1: at your tire, go ahead. And my childhood home backed
2:49
Speaker 1: up on a reservation. So that all said, I do
2:52
Speaker 1: love animals, but the bears, of all the animals I
2:57
Speaker 1: just listed, Nancy, are the biggest problem because they can
3:00
Speaker 1: attack and eat you, not just your garbage. They're sniffing around.
3:05
Speaker 1: You have to have special garbage cans and make sure
3:07
Speaker 1: that the lids are affixed to the top because they
3:10
Speaker 1: love food. So that all said. The state has had
3:14
Speaker 1: bear hunts over the years, then some governors stopped them,
3:18
Speaker 1: then other governors started them. There's lots of bears roaming around.
3:23
Speaker 1: Some traps were set by the environmental folks from the state.
3:29
Speaker 1: And this woman fifty years old who heard the bear
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Speaker 1: crying the cub felt sorry for it, and boy, I
3:36
Speaker 1: have to say, I really wow commend her. I wouldn't
3:40
Speaker 1: go out there and go near the bear and let
3:42
Speaker 1: it free. So I'd love to hear about how that happened. Well,
3:44
Speaker 1: let me understand something Robin will Lensky. You know, I'm
3:48
Speaker 1: all about following the law. You know. I don't want
3:52
Speaker 1: to even be a part of anything against the law.
3:55
Speaker 1: I don't want to be near it. I don't want
3:56
Speaker 1: to be around it. I go the other way. But
3:59
Speaker 1: I understand and that the EPA. Remember I worked for
4:02
Speaker 1: the Department of Natural Resources little known fact when I
4:07
Speaker 1: was in law school as an intern. I certainly did.
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Speaker 1: And the trap set by the Environmental Protection those are
4:17
Speaker 1: to stop bears from hurting people. I didn't know they
4:20
Speaker 1: were designed to torture the animal. I mean, you got
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Speaker 1: a baby in a trap, it's hurting and it's crying.
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Speaker 1: How often do they check the traps? Is the animals
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Speaker 1: just supposed to be there and die and starve, bleed
4:36
Speaker 1: in pain? Is that what environmental protection is about? And
4:40
Speaker 1: if so, who is it protecting? I mean, that's a
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Speaker 1: lot of questions. That's what we call it, the law,
4:44
Speaker 1: a compound question. I can tell you what. I can
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Speaker 1: tell you what the problem meant. Kathy, again, I want
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Speaker 1: to thank you for being with us. Go right ahead, Okay,
4:52
Speaker 1: the problem is not with the bears. But the first
4:55
Speaker 1: of all, there's not as many bears as people may
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Speaker 1: want you to think. I lived in bear country for
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Speaker 1: fifteen years, and the truths we almost never see them.
5:02
Speaker 1: The problem is the New Jersey Division of Fish and Wildlife.
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Speaker 1: They don't enforce garbage control in bear country. And as
5:09
Speaker 1: everybody knows, the bears are attracted to garbage because there's
5:12
Speaker 1: food stuff and food waste in the garbage that they
5:15
Speaker 1: like to eat. So instead of handing out summons, is
5:19
Speaker 1: what the Division of Fish and Wildlife does is they
5:22
Speaker 1: set these traps. They usually kill the bears that they
5:26
Speaker 1: deem as nuisances, and then they take all of those
5:30
Speaker 1: incidences and they use it to justify black bear trophy hunting.
5:35
Speaker 1: So really Fish and Wildlife is at the they're the problem.
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Speaker 1: And I hold them responsible for virtually every unwanted bear
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Speaker 1: encounter in our state because they're not doing their job.
5:48
Speaker 1: And the cub was caught in one of these traps,
5:50
Speaker 1: you know, Kathie, Yeah, Yeah, that's what I want to
5:54
Speaker 1: get to. I want to ask you and Mark what
5:57
Speaker 1: happened that day, and I want to just put it
6:00
Speaker 1: out there. I want to hear exactly what happened that day.
6:05
Speaker 1: And they will be joined by Grace Stafford and Doris Lynn.
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Speaker 1: So Kathy, you start, okay. Um, we were aware that
6:12
Speaker 1: there was that they were trapped in the area. Everybody
6:15
Speaker 1: was so um Mark and I we originally wanted to
6:19
Speaker 1: just go there to document um. However, the sounds of
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Speaker 1: the bear crying for his mother were so upsetting, and
6:28
Speaker 1: it just it made us realize. I mean, we know
6:30
Speaker 1: that the situation was wrong, but it just made us
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Speaker 1: realize that this is so wrong and this baby just
6:37
Speaker 1: needed to be reunited with his mother. And um, we
6:40
Speaker 1: knew that the mother and her other cubs were in
6:43
Speaker 1: the area, we were not uh, we were not worried
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Speaker 1: that she was going to hurt us, because they just
6:49
Speaker 1: don't do that. Right there. Hold On Gray Stafford, Doctor
6:54
Speaker 1: Gray Stafford, host of Zoologic podcast, wants to jump in.
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Speaker 1: He's chomping out the bit. Now. I don't know a lot,
7:01
Speaker 1: but I do know that bears will eat you, Gray.
7:04
Speaker 1: I do know that the black bears are very timid
7:08
Speaker 1: black bear black bears are very timid animals. And we
7:12
Speaker 1: obviously we came out unscathed. She just wanted her baby
7:16
Speaker 1: back and that's what we That's okay, and you know what,
7:21
Speaker 1: doctor Gray Stafford. Hold On one moment to Doctor Gray Stafford,
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Speaker 1: animal trainer, a PhD zoologist hosted Zoologic podcast Doctor Gray
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Speaker 1: Stafford Number one, I think bears eat you. Maybe I'm wrong,
7:35
Speaker 1: and I don't know what I'm talking about, and I
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Speaker 1: completely if it doesn't have crime scene tape around it,
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Speaker 1: I don't really know that much about it. So Doctor
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Speaker 1: Gray Stafford, I think bears will eat you. Catherine and Mark,
7:47
Speaker 1: I think risks a lot life and limb. But Doctor
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Speaker 1: Gray won't bears eat you much less a mommy bear
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Speaker 1: who you're messing with her cub bear techs are rather rare. However,
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Speaker 1: they're very dangerous animals, and I would disagree with your
8:00
Speaker 1: because a threatened mom, a protective mom. I mean, Nancy,
8:03
Speaker 1: you're a protective mom. I wouldn't want to tangle with
8:05
Speaker 1: you if one of your children were at risk. So
8:08
Speaker 1: I think that they put themselves at serious risk of
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Speaker 1: being hurt by this female. We don't know what she
8:14
Speaker 1: would have done and if she was in the area,
8:16
Speaker 1: they took a very big risk which could have risked
8:19
Speaker 1: the lives of other people as well, including any park
8:21
Speaker 1: rangers that were intervened. Now, hold on that, when we're
8:23
Speaker 1: talking about bear attacks, Katherine and Mark chose knowing about
8:29
Speaker 1: the bears in their area, they were willing to accept
8:32
Speaker 1: that risk to save the baby. Got a couple of
8:35
Speaker 1: questions for you, but hold on. Doris Land won an
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Speaker 1: end director of legal fairs at Animal Protection League Knee Jersey.
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Speaker 1: Hit me, Doris. If you look at the facts, black
8:43
Speaker 1: bear attacks are extremely rare. You are actually two hundred
8:46
Speaker 1: times more likely to die in a hunting accident. You
8:49
Speaker 1: are more likely to die from a vending machine falling
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Speaker 1: on you. So I think we need to put this
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Speaker 1: in perspective. You have to have teeth and claws, but
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Speaker 1: they are extremely timid and attacks are extremely rare. I'm sorry,
9:01
Speaker 1: Doris Land, but you stopped me when you said teeth
9:04
Speaker 1: and claws. Animal rights groups rally against the state sanctioned
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Speaker 1: bear hunt this weekend. Oh no, we're here to say.
9:12
Speaker 1: Protesters say they've launched a public media campaign against the
9:16
Speaker 1: annual bear hunt. They're urging Governor Murphy to keep his
9:20
Speaker 1: vow of putting an end to the hunt. That demonstration
9:22
Speaker 1: taking place in Middletown yesterday, where the governor lives. Men
9:26
Speaker 1: in the woods with guns shooting creatures that might work
9:29
Speaker 1: in Alaska or Colorado or Sunthing. But New Jersey is
9:31
Speaker 1: a very densely populated state, and we just think there's
9:34
Speaker 1: a better there's a better policy to eliminate unwanted human
9:38
Speaker 1: and bear encounters. A billboard also went up in Middletown
9:42
Speaker 1: urging the end of the hunt. You know you were
9:43
Speaker 1: just hearing from our friends at news to help New
9:45
Speaker 1: Jersey what we're talking about right now. Bear related and
9:48
Speaker 1: animal rights activists freeze a crying baby bear cub from
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Speaker 1: a trap and gets a jail sentence. She says she
9:57
Speaker 1: made a moral decision so he could quote run back
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Speaker 1: to his mother. I don't know, Penny Douglas, fur veteran,
10:04
Speaker 1: a lawyer, an animal activist. I've got Katherine McCartney with me,
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Speaker 1: the woman who released the bear to the wild, Mark
10:12
Speaker 1: and Nagelhout who helped her. Doris Lynn Legal Affairs, Animal Protection,
10:16
Speaker 1: New Jersey doctor Grace Afford, Robin Willinsky, Penny Douglas, you
10:20
Speaker 1: know how I am about the children. You know, when
10:22
Speaker 1: I even hear a baby cry or a child cry,
10:29
Speaker 1: it's I can hardly stand it. I can hardly stand it,
10:33
Speaker 1: and it bothered me before I had the twins. But
10:36
Speaker 1: now when I hear a child cry, it's it's instinctive.
10:40
Speaker 1: I can't help it. So, Penny, when Kathy hears the
10:44
Speaker 1: baby bear crying, what is she supposed to do? Just
10:48
Speaker 1: sit there and wait for them to get around to
10:51
Speaker 1: getting the bear out of the trap. Oh, I absolutely
10:53
Speaker 1: would have done exactly what she did. And I think
10:56
Speaker 1: the problem here, And I'm not a New Jersey lawyer,
11:00
Speaker 1: but I think the problem here is it's probably an
11:03
Speaker 1: ordinance violation and you can't get a jury trial. I
11:06
Speaker 1: think if she had a jury trial, no jury would
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Speaker 1: ever convict her for letting a baby bear out. I
11:12
Speaker 1: don't care what the laws is. I think in that
11:14
Speaker 1: kind of case you would have jury nullification. Well, hold on,
11:17
Speaker 1: I got a problem, Penny. Here in the stadium. I'm
11:20
Speaker 1: trying to focus, but I've got Jackie Howard making all
11:24
Speaker 1: sorts of faces and spinning. What is your problem, Jackie?
11:28
Speaker 1: Bears are a lot more dangerous than they realize. Okay,
11:31
Speaker 1: then they realize since you see a bear when you
11:34
Speaker 1: go up to Cherokee, North Carolina, and you feed once
11:37
Speaker 1: and peanuts through a cage, what experience do you have
11:41
Speaker 1: with a bear? I grew up on a farm we
11:43
Speaker 1: had bears on the farm. Where where did you grow up?
11:47
Speaker 1: And how many bears did you see five in your life? Okay,
11:51
Speaker 1: Robert Wilenski, I rest my case, Robert Wilenski, give me
11:54
Speaker 1: the bear stats real quickly. Well, I want to say
11:56
Speaker 1: that I saw a bear once, Nancy, when I was
11:58
Speaker 1: a camper, when I lived in Jersey. I go to
12:00
Speaker 1: camp in Pennsylvania and there was a bear once standing
12:03
Speaker 1: up on a tennis court. That was it for me.
12:06
Speaker 1: I just want to get that out. But the statistics
12:08
Speaker 1: are that in the don't the tennis court is their
12:12
Speaker 1: natural habitat, But go ahead. The bear stats are such
12:17
Speaker 1: that until you know nineteen seventy, there wasn't really a
12:20
Speaker 1: bear problem because there was always a hunt in New
12:23
Speaker 1: Jersey up until nineteen seventy. Then you got into this
12:26
Speaker 1: whole point. Why do you keep calling it a bear problem.
12:30
Speaker 1: They're living on the earth with us. There's they have
12:33
Speaker 1: a right to be here. Okay, why is it a problem?
12:36
Speaker 1: Their interaction with the Garden State residence appears to be
12:39
Speaker 1: a huge problem. But you mean aiding them, yes, become
12:43
Speaker 1: a political football, Nancy. Between so after nineteen seventy you
12:47
Speaker 1: get into Democratic governors and Republican governors, and some are
12:51
Speaker 1: pro gun and pro and ra and some are against,
12:53
Speaker 1: and back and forth and back and forth. So now,
12:57
Speaker 1: currently in the state of New Jersey, we have a
12:59
Speaker 1: governor Murphy. Governor Murphy who is the current governor, who's
13:03
Speaker 1: a Democrat. Last summer August of twenty eighteen, he signed
13:08
Speaker 1: an executive order in the state and what he did
13:11
Speaker 1: was he said no more bear hunting on all state
13:15
Speaker 1: owned lands. However, dot dot dot environmental folks are not
13:20
Speaker 1: happy with this. They think it only goes half measure Nancy,
13:24
Speaker 1: because just because the state of New Jersey has plenty
13:29
Speaker 1: of county parks and other areas where the bears are
13:34
Speaker 1: roaming free. I want to go back to the day
13:37
Speaker 1: Mark Nagel hout that you helped Catherine save the baby bear.
13:43
Speaker 1: What happened? Mark, start at the beginning, you know, let me,
13:46
Speaker 1: let me, let me interject here. I'm not I'm not
13:49
Speaker 1: here to talk about bear attacks. This has nothing to
13:51
Speaker 1: do with bear attacks. The problem is the division of
13:54
Speaker 1: fish and wildlife. They do not enforce garbage control in
13:58
Speaker 1: bear country. We can't say that bears are problem and
14:02
Speaker 1: then have our state authorities not enforced garbage control. They
14:06
Speaker 1: can't have it two ways. They can't have it two ways,
14:10
Speaker 1: so they must enforce garbage control. So what happened that
14:15
Speaker 1: morning that day mark Well, from my perspective, it broke
14:19
Speaker 1: my heart to hear the bear cub crying. And what
14:27
Speaker 1: amazed me also was seeing Mom and the other cubs
14:29
Speaker 1: stay in the area the entire time, and I wasn't
14:32
Speaker 1: scared for one second. I've been around bears. I've got
14:37
Speaker 1: family that were around bears for thirty years. They lived
14:39
Speaker 1: with bears in Sussex County. They never had a bear attack,
14:44
Speaker 1: they never had any issues like that. They lost one
14:48
Speaker 1: bird feeder, they had one garbage can carried across the street.
14:53
Speaker 1: It wasn't even opened. So they learned to live alongside
14:58
Speaker 1: bears for thirty years. And I think you have a question,
15:02
Speaker 1: why won't anybody tell me what happened that day? Well? What?
15:05
Speaker 1: What What amazed me also was again to Cathy's point,
15:11
Speaker 1: in the division e Ficial Wildlife, where this bear trap
15:14
Speaker 1: was placed. It was placed where people park their cars
15:19
Speaker 1: and where this broken dumpster was. So another thing that
15:23
Speaker 1: I observed was this bear in these cubs, and this
15:26
Speaker 1: really broke my heart too, seeing the mama bear and
15:31
Speaker 1: cubs walk and actually jump on the dumpster because they
15:35
Speaker 1: knew that was an easy food stores. And that's the problem.
15:39
Speaker 1: That's the Kathy's point. I agree. The real problem is
15:41
Speaker 1: garbage containment, and nothing is done about it. And I
15:46
Speaker 1: keep asking what happened the day you saved the bear,
15:47
Speaker 1: and nobody will tell me. Do I have to go
15:50
Speaker 1: to the reporter to ask her what happened to you
15:52
Speaker 1: that day? Or can you tell me what happened that day? Well, well,
15:56
Speaker 1: I helped Kathy open the trap and the cub ran
16:00
Speaker 1: the mom So okay, okay, that's pretty general. Let me
16:05
Speaker 1: just start with a couple of cross examination questions. What
16:08
Speaker 1: time of the day was it light or dark? Well,
16:11
Speaker 1: it was dark and we were there, weren't we weren't
16:14
Speaker 1: there to open the trap. I was there actually for
16:16
Speaker 1: the record, My wife Kim was there with me as well,
16:19
Speaker 1: and we were there that night to document the incident,
16:22
Speaker 1: and Kathy joined us as well to document. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait,
16:26
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're saying. You were there, see
16:28
Speaker 1: I thought you guys heard the bear and it broke
16:30
Speaker 1: your heart, and you went and helped him out. So
16:32
Speaker 1: when you say you were there to document in the incident,
16:34
Speaker 1: you made to document that you were going to say
16:36
Speaker 1: this bear no, No, we knew the trap was there
16:41
Speaker 1: because someone went to the police department and claimed that
16:44
Speaker 1: this bear charged at him. And bears are known for
16:46
Speaker 1: doing bluff charges. It doesn't mean they're going to attack.
16:49
Speaker 1: And this man injured himself because he tripped as he
16:52
Speaker 1: was running away from the bear. And so the division
16:55
Speaker 1: official Wildlife responded by setting up a trap for the bear,
16:58
Speaker 1: even though the bear attacked no one. And so that's
17:01
Speaker 1: how we knew the travels there. Guys. I've been looking
17:03
Speaker 1: at the stats, and I'm looking at a website called
17:07
Speaker 1: Alaska Life dot com, and it's a number of deaths
17:10
Speaker 1: in the US per year. Cardiovascular almost a million, transportation,
17:17
Speaker 1: about fifty thousand, drowning, about four thousand, hypothermia, about seven
17:22
Speaker 1: hundred West Nile virus, about one hundred and twenty, hornet
17:26
Speaker 1: bee wasp stings, about fifty snake bites, about five bear
17:32
Speaker 1: attacks two. So you're more likely to die from the
17:37
Speaker 1: West Nile virus or from freezing to death, or from
17:43
Speaker 1: a snake bite or a hornet bee or waspting than
17:46
Speaker 1: a bear attack. Interesting, Yes, and that's what you include
17:51
Speaker 1: grizzly bears, so that that's not even you know, black bears.
17:56
Speaker 1: I mean that you know, that's all bears, Nancy. In
18:00
Speaker 1: North America, in the last twenty years, between nineteen ninety
18:04
Speaker 1: seven and twenty seventeen, there have been twenty five fatal
18:08
Speaker 1: black bear attacks, and three of them in the US,
18:11
Speaker 1: two in Alaska and actually one in New Jersey back
18:15
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen in West Milford. Now hold on, wait
18:18
Speaker 1: a minute, Robin, I'm trying to digest your stats. You said,
18:21
Speaker 1: how many deaths over how many years? Twenty five? Wow,
18:25
Speaker 1: between nineteen ninety seven and twenty seventeen, So in a
18:28
Speaker 1: twenty year period, twenty years. Yeah, that's about right. That's
18:32
Speaker 1: the same stat about two people a year. Crime stories
18:47
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. I want to get back to the
18:55
Speaker 1: day or the night as you're now telling me that
18:58
Speaker 1: you saved the bay be bear. Don't talk about anything
19:02
Speaker 1: about garbage cans, about DNR environmental protection. Nothing. I want
19:08
Speaker 1: to hear about how you rescued the baby bear. Cathy. Um,
19:11
Speaker 1: it was raining, it was dark, Mark and I were
19:15
Speaker 1: there with his wife Kim and Um. We wanted to video,
19:21
Speaker 1: and the cries of the bear was something like I
19:23
Speaker 1: had just never heard before. It was like a very
19:27
Speaker 1: sad moaning. I can't explain it. It just yeah, it
19:35
Speaker 1: almost sounds like the bear. It almost no Mark, You're right,
19:38
Speaker 1: It almost sounds like the bear was calling MA. I know.
19:42
Speaker 1: And it was just I almost started to cry. Okay,
19:45
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people would laugh at that,
19:47
Speaker 1: but doctor Gray Stafford, you have dealt with so many animals,
19:51
Speaker 1: host of Zoologic podcast, don't laugh at me, because this happened.
19:56
Speaker 1: My dog that I had all the way through law
19:58
Speaker 1: school actually several times said hello. He said hello. I
20:02
Speaker 1: heard him say hello. I mean it was barking. But
20:06
Speaker 1: I can't really describe it. But it sounds maybe sure,
20:10
Speaker 1: I know that I probably, you know, put not imagined it,
20:15
Speaker 1: but I interpreted it to sound like a word. But
20:19
Speaker 1: it did it did. It sounded like a word. Yeah,
20:22
Speaker 1: it was from a dog, but it sounded like a word.
20:24
Speaker 1: So what she says, it sounded like it was saying MA.
20:27
Speaker 1: I totally believe that. I believe Well, certainly animals can
20:31
Speaker 1: mimic sounds, so I'm not surprised your dog might have,
20:34
Speaker 1: you know, learned a mimic sounds and here's regularly. But
20:37
Speaker 1: I got to go back something that was said earlier,
20:38
Speaker 1: and that is the there was a report that the
20:41
Speaker 1: animal was in the in the area and could have
20:43
Speaker 1: been posing a risk. The Department of Natural Resources would
20:46
Speaker 1: have been derelict in its duty had it not intervened,
20:49
Speaker 1: had it not set a trap to evaluate the animal
20:51
Speaker 1: and relocate them. It didn't know if it was a
20:54
Speaker 1: male or female, or with cubs. It had a duty
20:57
Speaker 1: to go out there and investigate. Well, I agree with you,
21:00
Speaker 1: doctor Gray Stafford. Their their duty, their duty. It's to
21:04
Speaker 1: a forced garbage can hold on guys, that's their duty.
21:07
Speaker 1: I agree with you. If a human life is in danger,
21:12
Speaker 1: the DNR has to act. That is their duty. What
21:15
Speaker 1: I don't understand is why an animal is left in
21:20
Speaker 1: a trap to suffer. So, Kathy and Mark that evening,
21:26
Speaker 1: when you go out, you know this trap is there,
21:29
Speaker 1: you know there's a baby bear in it, you document it.
21:32
Speaker 1: So what kind of a trap wasn't Well, it was
21:35
Speaker 1: what they call like a barrel trap. So it's like
21:38
Speaker 1: a metal drum looks like a metal drum on its side.
21:41
Speaker 1: So what happens is the bear is baited in um,
21:45
Speaker 1: they go in the trap and then the door closes, Okay,
21:49
Speaker 1: And so there wasn't like a saw closed over his foot.
21:54
Speaker 1: He was just in a barrel. Right, that's correct. But
21:57
Speaker 1: it's again separating, separating from the rest of the Let
22:00
Speaker 1: me ask you how long had the baby been in
22:02
Speaker 1: the barrel? Do you think about an hour? Okay? So
22:05
Speaker 1: what happened then? See, in my mind, I thought it
22:08
Speaker 1: was a bear trap like I've seen on TV. And yes,
22:12
Speaker 1: I worked at Department Natural Resources, but I was mostly
22:15
Speaker 1: dealing with on the beach side, Penny Douglas fur down
22:21
Speaker 1: at Saint Simon's Island about trying to preserve the beach.
22:27
Speaker 1: So that's what I was working on. I don't know
22:29
Speaker 1: anything about bear traps, and I had imagined the type
22:32
Speaker 1: you see on TV where you step in it and
22:35
Speaker 1: then a thing that looks like jaws made of you know,
22:39
Speaker 1: like a saw, capture the animal. But you're telling me
22:44
Speaker 1: it's like a drum. Yeah, it's called a culvert trap.
22:47
Speaker 1: It's called a culvert trap. But what happens is the
22:51
Speaker 1: Division efficient Wildlife they usually they kill those bears after
22:57
Speaker 1: they capture them. And they consider them nuisancepairs. However, it's
23:02
Speaker 1: the Division of Fish and Wildlife that creates the US
23:04
Speaker 1: that creates the nuisance spairs. Because I know you're back
23:08
Speaker 1: to the garbage, I understand. Let me understand something, because
23:11
Speaker 1: I had a completely when I entered this program. I
23:15
Speaker 1: was imagining a baby bear cub, whether it's foot sliced
23:19
Speaker 1: open by you know, bear trap that looked like a saw.
23:25
Speaker 1: Now I'm understanding, he's lured in by a bait trap
23:28
Speaker 1: and he's in like a barrel. And he had been
23:31
Speaker 1: in there for about an hour. Now the Department of
23:34
Speaker 1: Natural Resources or Division of Fish and Wildlife, they say
23:39
Speaker 1: they come and they released him every hour. Is that true?
23:43
Speaker 1: So he would have only been in there an hour.
23:44
Speaker 1: He was in there at least an hour. He was
23:46
Speaker 1: in there at least an hour that we know of,
23:48
Speaker 1: and had we not let him out and the cops
23:52
Speaker 1: have not called them, we don't know when they would
23:54
Speaker 1: have come. But when they would have come, we don't
23:56
Speaker 1: know what they would have done with him. We know
23:58
Speaker 1: that they kills that they catch, and we know that
24:02
Speaker 1: they have in the past taken the orphan bears and
24:06
Speaker 1: just abandoned them to fund for themselves without their mother.
24:10
Speaker 1: So we wanted that baby safe with his mother, and
24:13
Speaker 1: we wanted the whole family out of the area. Nancy,
24:15
Speaker 1: can I make a point? Can I just make a yeah?
24:18
Speaker 1: Jump in? I want to know how you got it
24:19
Speaker 1: back to the mom? I mean, how a mom stood
24:22
Speaker 1: by while you tampered with her baby. Because I'm very interested.
24:27
Speaker 1: This is not a trick question. I'm not trying to
24:29
Speaker 1: trap you. I'm just trying to find out what happened
24:32
Speaker 1: because everything I thought is completely wrong and I'm hearing
24:36
Speaker 1: it all now for the first time. So how did
24:38
Speaker 1: you get it back to its mom? Mark? Well, the
24:40
Speaker 1: bear just ran right out, ran right out to mom.
24:43
Speaker 1: I mean, well, again, my wife was documenting the whole thing,
24:47
Speaker 1: so she saw the bear run out of the trap
24:50
Speaker 1: and run right to where mom and the other cubs were.
24:53
Speaker 1: So and I just want to make another point. How
24:56
Speaker 1: close were you to the mom and the cubs? How
24:59
Speaker 1: close were you to the mom? I'm in the cabin
25:03
Speaker 1: estimated ten maybe they to thirty feet? So wow, But
25:12
Speaker 1: you're right, Okay, I think a lot of people would
25:16
Speaker 1: do the same thing. And just another point. You know
25:20
Speaker 1: the Division official Wildlife, they use a category system for bears.
25:24
Speaker 1: So what they deemed to be um to Cathy's point,
25:29
Speaker 1: but they don't deem to be UM. Bears that are threats,
25:33
Speaker 1: and that's you know, can be debatable if they're really
25:35
Speaker 1: a threat or not. Under the category system, they can
25:38
Speaker 1: be killed. So in this case, you had it, you
25:42
Speaker 1: had it open dumpster um right by where people walk
25:45
Speaker 1: to their cars and throw their garbage out. People could
25:48
Speaker 1: see that as a threat and that would get these
25:51
Speaker 1: innocent bears killed. So again, the real problem again is
25:56
Speaker 1: the attractant, the initial problem. Um, it's these problems are
26:01
Speaker 1: handled correctly. Um, okay, can I just mention right now
26:06
Speaker 1: to Kathy and Mark? I get it. I get the garbage.
26:10
Speaker 1: I get that there is a garbage problem and the
26:13
Speaker 1: bears come to it, and the garbage is not being controlled,
26:17
Speaker 1: and therefore the bears are attracted and they shouldn't be
26:19
Speaker 1: shouldn't get the death penalty because they went to eat
26:22
Speaker 1: some garbage. I get it. I understand completely. Two Penny Douglas,
26:27
Speaker 1: For I'm looking at the so called culvert trap. It's
26:31
Speaker 1: actually huge. It's about the size of um golly. It
26:36
Speaker 1: looks like it's a large It looks like it's maybe
26:40
Speaker 1: ten or eleven feet long and it's about three or
26:44
Speaker 1: four feet tall. I mean I could totally go in
26:46
Speaker 1: there and go to sleep. And Yancy's it's the bare
26:49
Speaker 1: equivalent of a have a heart trap that you might
26:52
Speaker 1: use around your house for smaller wildlife or for a
26:55
Speaker 1: feral cat. Okay, I live and let live back to you.
27:01
Speaker 1: Kathy McCartney, the New Jersey woman sent us to jail
27:05
Speaker 1: for freeing a bear. Come. You know I started this
27:07
Speaker 1: off by saying, no record, no rap sheet, no nothing.
27:10
Speaker 1: But of course the anti bear person here is telling
27:12
Speaker 1: me you have been let me just say observed or
27:17
Speaker 1: it has been suggested that you have done this before.
27:20
Speaker 1: Peaceful civil disobedience out of protest. Peaceful protests. I'm sure
27:24
Speaker 1: the Department of Natural Resources doesn't think it's so peaceful
27:27
Speaker 1: when they have one guy claiming got charged by a bear,
27:29
Speaker 1: and you are hearing this baby bear crying for its mommy.
27:32
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. Kathy McCartney and Mark Nagelhut,
27:36
Speaker 1: if I heard a pet, or an animal, not a pet, crying,
27:40
Speaker 1: I would want to help it too. So my question
27:42
Speaker 1: to you is, Kathy, how did you happen to know
27:48
Speaker 1: the bear was in the trap, if it had been
27:50
Speaker 1: there for about you knew of it being there for
27:52
Speaker 1: about an hour. Were you actually on a steakout waiting
27:56
Speaker 1: for a bear to get in the trap so you
27:57
Speaker 1: can release No, it's very common that that's Fish and
28:02
Speaker 1: Wilife sets traps. This is bear country, and we know
28:06
Speaker 1: that there are bears in the area, and you know,
28:09
Speaker 1: news travels very fast, so a lot of people knew
28:12
Speaker 1: about these traps. And it's not the first time that
28:15
Speaker 1: the division has set traps. They've been doing it for years.
28:18
Speaker 1: And this is the way they operate. They don't do
28:21
Speaker 1: their jobs, they don't enforce garbage control. They wait for
28:23
Speaker 1: bears to get into trouble, they set traps, they kill them,
28:26
Speaker 1: they promote fear, and then they use that to say
28:30
Speaker 1: we need to hunt them because they are in the division.
28:33
Speaker 1: Fish and Wildlife is in the business of trophy hunting.
28:36
Speaker 1: So were you waiting Mark to free a bear? Were
28:42
Speaker 1: you waiting to free a bear mark, or did you
28:44
Speaker 1: really hear a baby bear crying and happen to go
28:47
Speaker 1: out there with video or whatever to document it. At
28:50
Speaker 1: that precise moment, you happen to have your wife notebook
28:54
Speaker 1: and pen in hand to go and free the baby bear.
28:57
Speaker 1: To what happened, I'll answer. I'll answer that a second,
29:01
Speaker 1: but first I just want to say on the culvert traps,
29:03
Speaker 1: I call them bart traps whatever, but culver traps, there's
29:05
Speaker 1: different sizes. Okay. So this was the second culvert trap
29:09
Speaker 1: that was set in this complex. The first one was
29:12
Speaker 1: set on the other side of the complex, right near
29:15
Speaker 1: the main road to get in there, which was an
29:17
Speaker 1: odd place for it to be. It's almost like fish
29:19
Speaker 1: and Wildlife wanted that first trap to be spotted, and
29:22
Speaker 1: that was a bigger trap. This one that we were
29:25
Speaker 1: by and that we opened was smaller, and I don't
29:29
Speaker 1: believe it was big enough for a full size for
29:32
Speaker 1: a mom a bear to be caught. I believe it's designed.
29:36
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but I believe it's designed to
29:38
Speaker 1: catch a smaller bear, a smaller cup, which in that
29:40
Speaker 1: case would would would draw obviously draw a mom and
29:45
Speaker 1: the other cups to the to the area. You know,
29:47
Speaker 1: I'm thinking this thing through. Okay. Can I get you
29:50
Speaker 1: back to that question now? Yes, yes, So we were
29:53
Speaker 1: there to answer a question, We were there to document,
29:55
Speaker 1: We were there before any any bears were caught in
30:00
Speaker 1: the trap, so we were just going a document. Nancy.
30:04
Speaker 1: I think what they're saying is because they're putting all
30:07
Speaker 1: these traps out there, they're just there because they're activists
30:11
Speaker 1: and they're trying to document any bears that are in
30:14
Speaker 1: traps that they're trying to get. Penny, I just got
30:18
Speaker 1: any fact. This is not a bear out in the wild.
30:23
Speaker 1: This is at the Great George Village kindominium complex where
30:27
Speaker 1: children are, and that's a lot different than being out
30:34
Speaker 1: in the woods. Penny. The problem is with you. I
30:40
Speaker 1: get it. I get it about the trash. Now, I
30:43
Speaker 1: understand what I'm going to say. What I'm saying is
30:45
Speaker 1: it's a big difference. I mean, you have a good
30:49
Speaker 1: sense to keep your pack of wild funeral rot wilders
30:53
Speaker 1: in the house, and they tacked the door. Every time
30:56
Speaker 1: I knock on it, I think that's my last breath.
30:59
Speaker 1: I see nothing but fames and teeth and saliva tug
31:03
Speaker 1: and fur through your door. This is the problem because
31:08
Speaker 1: the bears were there when the condos come in, and
31:11
Speaker 1: when the homes come in, all the animals were already
31:15
Speaker 1: there and we're running them out of their home and
31:19
Speaker 1: they're coming because we've taken their space away and they're
31:23
Speaker 1: just trying to get the food and come into our
31:25
Speaker 1: trash cans. I know they are. What do you do,
31:30
Speaker 1: Grace Stafford? What do you do when a mama bear
31:33
Speaker 1: comes to get the trash and there's a three year
31:35
Speaker 1: old standing there? What happens then? Grace Stafford? Exactly and Nancy,
31:39
Speaker 1: and we're talking about New Jersey. But when you look
31:41
Speaker 1: around the world, human animal conflict is a serious problem.
31:44
Speaker 1: Someone is killed by a wild animal every single day,
31:47
Speaker 1: and so DNR has a difficult task ahead of them. Yes,
31:50
Speaker 1: we need to educate the public about trash, but we
31:52
Speaker 1: also have to manage the relationship between wildlife and people.
31:55
Speaker 1: As human populations grow in natural habitats shrink and there's
32:00
Speaker 1: some a balance has to be formed somewhere, and otherwise
32:03
Speaker 1: you're going to talk about more and more bear attacks.
32:06
Speaker 1: That's just the reality. So DNR has an unenviable job.
32:09
Speaker 1: But to intervene into to kind of confound what they're
32:13
Speaker 1: trying to do, Uh, Sam, doesn't solve them, you know, Nancy,
32:19
Speaker 1: Here's here's my thing. This is a radio program, not
32:21
Speaker 1: a television show, and just so for the audience, So
32:24
Speaker 1: they understand what these traps look like. This is not
32:28
Speaker 1: a trap when you are in your house and you
32:30
Speaker 1: have a mice or a rat problem and you put
32:33
Speaker 1: a little piece of cheese or peanut butter and it
32:35
Speaker 1: goes clicks and it goes the little trap thingy goes
32:39
Speaker 1: over the little mouse and your mouth is dead and
32:42
Speaker 1: you throw it in the garbage. This is not that.
32:45
Speaker 1: This is not catching the bear's foot in a trap.
32:49
Speaker 1: I think people are visualizing this trap like when you
32:51
Speaker 1: catch mice. This is not that. This is a large
32:56
Speaker 1: silver cylinder where the bear actually crawls in and you
33:02
Speaker 1: no longer can visually see the bear once it is
33:06
Speaker 1: inside the silver cylinder, so humans know that this is there,
33:12
Speaker 1: and then the bear gets trapped in the cylinder. I'm
33:16
Speaker 1: looking right at it, and you can go to crime
33:18
Speaker 1: online dot com and see a photo of it. In fact,
33:20
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I see Kathy McCartney and Mark Naglehount
33:23
Speaker 1: in this picture and the there's a big sign that
33:26
Speaker 1: says danger bear trap, keep away. And to you Mark,
33:31
Speaker 1: it looks like the trap comes up to about your shoulders.
33:34
Speaker 1: But you know what I'm seeing. I'm seeing a front
33:36
Speaker 1: shot of it, and you are lifting it up, so
33:39
Speaker 1: I don't know how tall it really is because you're
33:41
Speaker 1: lifting up the front door and so you've got it
33:45
Speaker 1: up to about your shoulders. I don't know how big
33:47
Speaker 1: the trap really is because I can't see past the front.
33:50
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, I mean, doctor Gray Stafford. Well,
33:56
Speaker 1: you know, let me go to Doris Land on this
33:58
Speaker 1: Doris jail time. Now again, this is not Kathy McCartney's
34:02
Speaker 1: first time at the rodeo. She's no stranger to animal activism.
34:07
Speaker 1: She was arrested at bear hunt protests twenty sixteen, seventeen eighteen.
34:13
Speaker 1: So is that why the judge gave her jail's hunt. Yes,
34:16
Speaker 1: it was because she had these past violations. But you know,
34:19
Speaker 1: I need to interject here that the Division of Fish
34:23
Speaker 1: and Wildlife is not this benevolent environment protecting organization. The
34:28
Speaker 1: Division of Fish and Wildlife is run by hunters. Four hunters.
34:32
Speaker 1: By statute, the eleven number of Fishing Game Council has
34:36
Speaker 1: to have six numbers who are hunters, and they are
34:39
Speaker 1: chosen by hunting clubs in New Jersey, and they make
34:43
Speaker 1: money by selling hunting licenses. If you look in their
34:46
Speaker 1: own magazine, the twenty fourteen New Jersey Hunting trap and digests.
34:50
Speaker 1: If there's an article called create a new Tradition Hunt
34:53
Speaker 1: New Jersey black Bear, and the article says, if you
34:56
Speaker 1: are looking for an inexpensive and exciting hunting at the
35:00
Speaker 1: you're close to home, consider hunting black bears in New Jersey.
35:03
Speaker 1: So for them, this supports their narrative of oh, bears
35:07
Speaker 1: or dangerous. Oh, we need to hunt them. Oh, look
35:09
Speaker 1: at all these bear human conflicts, and they have built
35:12
Speaker 1: this story up to try to support a black bear hunt,
35:15
Speaker 1: to try to support their recreational trophy. Hunt well. Doctor
35:20
Speaker 1: Gray Stafford with zoo Logic podcast. When I worked at
35:24
Speaker 1: the Department Natural Resources in law school, people cared about animals,
35:30
Speaker 1: and they cared about nature, and they cared about wildlife.
35:35
Speaker 1: If you had any idea how many man hours I
35:37
Speaker 1: put into studying how to save a beach, a very
35:41
Speaker 1: small beach, to help the sea turtles for Pete's sake,
35:45
Speaker 1: I mean, people do care. I know we did it.
35:49
Speaker 1: The Georgia Department of Natural Resources, Sure they care, and
35:52
Speaker 1: so do most ethical hunters. That's why they pay those
35:56
Speaker 1: license fees to have that opportunity to hunt. I'm not
35:59
Speaker 1: a hunter. But I recognize that that ethical hunting that's
36:02
Speaker 1: managed at the state level, the federal level, etc. Does
36:05
Speaker 1: provide great benefit to each state to save habitat, to
36:08
Speaker 1: preserve the entire population. And I know it's difficult for
36:11
Speaker 1: some people to see that, especially when you're looking at
36:13
Speaker 1: the individual level, but when you're tasked with managing the
36:16
Speaker 1: entire population of bears and wildlife in a state like
36:19
Speaker 1: New Jersey, you have to make these difficult decisions and
36:21
Speaker 1: you have to find a way to fund it. There's
36:23
Speaker 1: really no such thing as there's no such thing as
36:25
Speaker 1: ethical bear hunting. No, that's no, that's not true. That's
36:30
Speaker 1: not true. If it's managed properly. We can get into
36:34
Speaker 1: baiting too, Nancy and Nancy, and we can get into bating,
36:36
Speaker 1: which is done upper bears and deer in New Jersey.
36:39
Speaker 1: And I could go on and on about deer bating too,
36:42
Speaker 1: and chronic wasting disease. Well, so nobody needs to happen. No, Mark,
36:45
Speaker 1: bating needs to be banned. And Mark, that's a valid
36:47
Speaker 1: point though, Yeah, that's it. That's not that's a well. Mark, Mark,
36:51
Speaker 1: that's a valid that's a valid point. And if there
36:53
Speaker 1: are if there are issues with the way that the
36:55
Speaker 1: hunt is being managed. If it's not following fair chase rules,
36:58
Speaker 1: then petition your government and change the rules and the regulations.
37:02
Speaker 1: But you don't. You can't throw the baby out with
37:03
Speaker 1: the bathwater. Well that's quite the pun throwing the baby
37:07
Speaker 1: bear out with the bathwater. What we were talking about
37:10
Speaker 1: right now is a woman Kathy McCartney and Mark Neaglehout.
37:14
Speaker 1: Kathy has been sentenced to jail time to see. I'm
37:16
Speaker 1: coming at it from a very different angle. I want
37:19
Speaker 1: those jailcots for child molesters and murderers and dope dealers, rapists,
37:25
Speaker 1: That's who I want in jail. In fact, we don't
37:28
Speaker 1: even have enough beds for all of them. We can't
37:31
Speaker 1: catch half of them, number one. So I'm leaning toward
37:35
Speaker 1: letting Kathy McCartney pick up a little trash on the
37:38
Speaker 1: side of the road with a friend, Mark Eaglehout. What
37:40
Speaker 1: she says she did was free a baby bear from
37:44
Speaker 1: a trap. There was meant for mama bear and it
37:47
Speaker 1: was on the state side at a condominium complex where
37:52
Speaker 1: there are children. Where will it all end? And Nancy?
37:57
Speaker 1: As we go to air, we are now learning the
37:59
Speaker 1: judge is changing his mind he will allow Catherine McCartney
38:03
Speaker 1: and Daniel Varron to avoid jail time. Instead, they can
38:07
Speaker 1: apply to work on the Sheriff's Labor Assistance Program. That's
38:10
Speaker 1: the SLAP program, in which they can perform manual labor
38:14
Speaker 1: instead of going to jail. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing
38:18
Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,