Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Frazer Gregory about his choice of The Kings Demons (2/2)

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Talks to Frazer Gregory about his choice of The Kings Demons (2/2) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a bump pen. Knife are doing quicker,
0:40
quicker. We sing in praise of Total War
0:46
Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum. With Fraser, The King's Demons
0:52
isn't a bore. Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum
0:56
bum, bum. We have swords, fight bricks
1:01
against the clock, don't wince and hopefully whilst tied up
1:10
I'll suck free. Oh no, use cock.
1:18
Hello Fraser, welcome back to a Havis World Blood pen.
1:20
No, the Doctor Who Commentary podcast.
1:23
Oh my dear Joe, you have been naive.
1:26
Listen to me, Fraser, Your will is weak.
1:30
Or so I hear. Here's some Viagra.
1:34
Seem to magic. Cheers, Finger.
1:37
No, no, I suppose we should talk about the master who has
1:42
surprised. Surprised at all?
1:44
I know it used to be earlier today that you know, it's very
1:47
hard to pull the wall over your eyes when it comes to A twist.
1:51
How does the King's demons do in that respect?
1:54
Very, very badly because I read the I, but because I read the
1:58
you know, the the programme guy discontinued you guys 5th Doctor
2:01
handbook. I knew exactly what was coming
2:05
in this, you know, because it's what is it 40 or two years old
2:08
now? Why would you spoil yourself all
2:12
the delights of Doctor Who like that?
2:14
Because when you are growing up as a fan and when you know, you
2:17
don't have the iPlayer, you don't have the, you know, the
2:22
ability to just go and watch the Doctor Who throughout, you know,
2:26
and you want to know more about Doctor Who.
2:29
You, you, you know, and you're in the 90s.
2:30
You go to books, you find out as much as you can about these
2:34
shows. You seriously what you know,
2:37
what were the stories? What happened in them, You know
2:40
You, you do. You spoil off yourself through
2:42
your own natural eagerness to learn, you know?
2:46
You do Your archaeology of the show and you spoilers be damned,
2:49
you know. I mean, you could have just
2:51
said, oh, I could see he was wearing a fake ginger beard and
2:56
had a terribly fake accent. Well, I could, but you know,
3:00
that wouldn't be necessarily the truth and I would.
3:02
I knew from the very first time I watched this, you know, just
3:06
like I knew a lot of what was going to happen in a lot of
3:08
other, well, that story, so. I mean, I'd go there as as kids,
3:13
we'd like to just consume as much as possible.
3:15
We want to know everything and we forget actually the delights
3:20
of this stuff is experiencing it for the first time.
3:23
Absolutely. I can't imagine those people
3:25
watching Earth Shop for the first time or when it went out
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would have had as much joy after reading the program guide.
3:34
No, but again, you know, that was something that, you know,
3:37
watching Air Shock, I knew exactly what was going to happen
3:40
at the end of the day. But.
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I suppose that does make the new series quite enticing in that
3:44
respect. You know, we don't know what's
3:46
going to happen. Yeah, I mean you sometimes you
3:49
don't have to stay off of the twitters and the the social
3:52
media as a bit to to achieve that.
3:55
But you know, I I think I was, you know, when the very last
3:58
most recent series was quite unspoken.
4:00
So I you know I had the the reveal of of the Midnight sequel
4:04
to enjoy. You know, enjoy, you say?
4:08
Yes, enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. It's.
4:10
Good get there. You know, but I think the
4:14
amazing thing to go on. Well, mine was probably the best
4:17
surprise I've ever had was probably Spy Fall Part 1 on the
4:22
plane because I was just so, so hoodwinks.
4:27
No idea, but that was going to be the master.
4:29
Yeah. And that sort of textbook, how
4:31
you do do it? Yeah, I think the, I mean the
4:36
the reveal of Missy I think had been sort of rumoured by fans,
4:41
you know, it's. Sort of flat though.
4:43
Yeah, John SIM popping up as as the master, I think again, I
4:49
think tabloids and maybe spot that a little bit.
4:51
The Jacobi 1 was great, that got me.
4:54
Oh and the MACRA. For some reason that excited me
4:56
no end. Clara in Sailing with the
5:00
Daleks. That was a good one when?
5:04
Can you hear that dust ball going across the screen there?
5:06
There we go. Yeah, it's it's it's you're just
5:08
trying to contain your excitement.
5:09
I know you've you've touched something you shouldn't have
5:11
done with your magic. Just finger.
5:12
I know this. Don't worry, We'll clean it up
5:14
later. I was genuinely surprised,
5:17
mostly irritated, but also surprised.
5:21
But the other the other thing I think we need to bear in mind
5:24
and you know, in the danger of repeating what I said in the the
5:28
strictly come hamster on season 20 is when people watched this
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initially, you know, we weren't watching on a 40 inch OLED LED,
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you know, high definition screen.
5:42
It was. Fraser, you don't need it to say
5:44
that. That's a fake bit.
5:46
Right. So can you remember then the
5:49
poll that I ran when we did that strictly?
5:53
Tell me. So before we did the Strictly, I
5:55
went out onto Twitter because, you know, Twitter was the thing
5:58
back in those days. That's how long ago we did it.
6:00
And I asked everyone who watched The King's Demons live, you
6:06
know, when it went out on broadcast, I asked you a
6:08
question. Were you convinced by the
6:10
Master's disguise? Was that a surprise to you?
6:12
When at the end of that cliffhanger where Sejil Estram
6:16
turns into the Master, was that a surprise to you?
6:18
Can you remember what the? Can you remember what the
6:20
results? Were I'm sure, I mean Jesus,
6:22
they were out when they were watching this live back then.
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I mean, they're so fucking senile I can't even remember.
6:29
It was a classic Brexit result. It was 52 to 48 in favour of the
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surprise. I mean, those are great odds,
6:39
right? That did shatter a country.
6:42
Yeah, but you know, it still says, you know, more people were
6:45
actually taken in by the disguise than not.
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So I. Didn't know you knew all of
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Doctor Who fandom? So you see what hamster a blood
6:54
pen Knarf has done to you? I had I had 58 votes as well. 58
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votes yes to being taken in. Got 52%. 20 odd people.
7:04
Wow you people were stupid. I don't know who you are.
7:07
Does anyone relieve any comments?
7:10
Are we name and shame a few of these idiots?
7:15
These essential contributors to the show, Drew Yes.
7:18
I'll insult them more than anyone.
7:20
What are you talking about? Let.
7:22
Me get this back up. I can always guess the names.
7:28
Oh, no, Press the wrong button. This is great podcasting.
7:30
Yeah. Yeah, come on, I should do the
7:32
music. That's.
7:38
The. Music at the start, when it
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transitions outside the castle to the jousting.
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So we had Ivana who said I was 13 when that was broadcast.
7:54
So yes. Also too young to have noticed
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the anagram. Al 13 Al Fair enough then.
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Yeah, everyone's a bit stupid. Paul Monk said.
8:03
I don't remember but was 9 so most probably I was.
8:05
Paul Monk 9 OK, so even more stupid than 13.
8:09
Yeah, go on. Glenn Fitzgerald.
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I was indeed all on the floor laughing emoji.
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In my defence, I was 9, nearly ten.
8:15
Oh, happy memories. People got happy memories of the
8:19
reveal. I mean, it's always exciting,
8:21
even if it's kind of obvious. It is like I in all seriousness,
8:27
the I think the way it's done in Castro Valva, I was genuinely
8:33
fooled. I couldn't tell that was Anthony
8:35
Aingley under there. Whereas I had a pretty good idea
8:38
when I was watching episode 1 of The King Stephens.
8:41
And the final word goes to Big Orange, Michael says.
8:47
I saw this in my KTEHDSI don't know what that is with no
8:52
program guide and no Internet. I called it by the midway
8:55
through Part 1, so midway through Part 1.
8:59
Still not to walk out the TARDIS and go, that's the must there is
9:02
and go back in and go home. It was me thinking that all
9:05
Americans for voting in Trump were a bunch of inbred idiots,
9:09
but he figured out halfway for episode 1.
9:13
Yes, I did all the insult. Insulted there and you said
9:19
nothing. It's.
9:22
Your audience to insult. Not me, but you know, I think, I
9:26
think, yeah, I think. And so, you know, some people
9:30
will have twigged it, no doubt, some people won't have done.
9:33
But you know, again, it's classic GNT, isn't it?
9:36
It's classic bit of smoke and mirrors, you know, do something
9:41
a little bit interesting, a little bit exciting, bit
9:43
entertainer. And I can't fault him for it, to
9:45
be honest. I think why?
9:47
Why not try and do something a little bit exciting?
9:51
I agree. I also think it's always a savvy
9:55
move. I took a look at the numbers.
9:57
I think the ratings go up between 1:00 and 2:00 because,
10:00
Oh my God, Anthony Angie's in it this way.
10:02
Well, that's going to be camp. I mean, I'll be tuning in.
10:06
He was clutching his tissue compression eliminator, looking
10:10
scarily like a black penis at the end of the first episode.
10:13
It's a dildo, isn't it? Yeah, I'll.
10:14
Be there for that. Yeah, actually, do you know
10:17
what? Right.
10:18
I went to the Edinburgh, what was it called?
10:22
Now, Edinburgh Dungeons, it's a bit like the London dungeons,
10:25
right? And you go down after you've
10:28
been through the court case where my mother was put on the
10:30
stand and accused of parading the streets of Edinburgh naked
10:36
like some, you know, lurid harpy.
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And she was very pleased by that.
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We went downstairs and they had all of the torture devices down
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there. The scariest one.
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Listen to this. It was just like the tissue
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compression eliminator, right? The same sort of shape.
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And they shove it up your butt hole, right?
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And then it's got a crank handle and you just keep turning until
11:01
it opens up your butt and splits you in half.
11:04
Oh, forever. What a way to go.
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What a way to go do? You think that's maybe what the
11:08
master had? It was a medieval device.
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He has got a torture device or two.
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About terrifying. Well, on that note, Episode 2.
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Now I do want to talk about Chameleon in Episode 2 because I
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think there's much to say, but you will.
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Should we get going? Let's do it.
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I'll point you in. I sang.
11:27
So you. Yeah, I forget.
11:30
So let's go in 321 and play. Here we go now, entertainers.
11:39
Entertainers, what? What do you think is is the best
11:43
and the worst of GNT? I think, I don't think he gets a
11:48
celebrity casting wrong. Not one.
11:51
So I think his instincts to put famous people from other shows
11:55
into Doctor Who is bang on. And I actually think it's better
12:00
when it's jarring because it really makes you pay attention
12:03
to those roles. Like like Beryl Reed in No
12:06
Shock. I think he squeezes the purse
12:09
brilliantly and at his best, he puts some of the most visually
12:13
sumptuous classic Who on the screen.
12:15
Planet of Fire looks like it's had five times the budget spent
12:19
on it that it has. I think he was very good at
12:25
finding fresh talent alternatively.
12:29
Oh, and he was great at casting Doctors as well.
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Yeah, I think he had a really good instinct for casting
12:34
Doctors alternatively. I do think he relied on safe
12:38
pairs of hands for things like direction, where we could have
12:41
had more dynamic people coming in more frequently.
12:45
But the safe pair of hands he chooses do get better.
12:48
But, you know, time flight is there.
12:52
Peter Moffett's work is there to see you.
12:56
Super Twin Dilemma and I think he lets his personal life get
13:03
the better of him in all kinds of ways.
13:06
That has detrimental effects on the show as you go along.
13:09
Tika just for a knife and the master caught in.
13:14
To be honest it wasn't the best though.
13:15
I think I could have caught that one, but.
13:17
What a choice. Phraser look, dildo or knife?
13:20
Dildo knife he. Took the dildo.
13:22
Of course he did. Of course he did.
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You have moral scruples, he says.
13:28
Oh dear, Oh dear. Look, King John's having a great
13:32
time watching this play out. He is the master's having great
13:35
fun as well in this. Everyone's having fun.
13:38
Everyone's getting to do something that they really
13:40
enjoy. This, this is the master's
13:42
holiday, you know, this is what he gets stuck to when he spare
13:43
time. It's just a light.
13:45
Between his master plans. Yeah, it's just a light bit of
13:48
fuckery, you know, it's like. It's a shame we don't really see
13:52
too much of that in a new series, isn't it?
13:53
We only really see the big plans.
13:55
See the big plans, but you know, it's just kind of like right, so
13:57
I've just escaped from 0 fast. You know what I just need a bit
14:00
of a chill. I just need a bit.
14:03
You know, I just need and he recharged me batteries a little
14:07
bit. So I'm not going to go grab.
14:08
I'm just going to go to work and I'm just going to fuck a little
14:10
bit. I like to think he went to his
14:12
disguises room in the TARDIS, picked up the orange beard and
14:15
went yes. So Jules Estram.
14:19
Yes, I'm just going to chill At what?
14:21
My gosh. Yeah, I'll go get a disguise on.
14:23
I'll go somewhere, I'll just lightly fuck about a bit and
14:26
we'll see what happens. Do you?
14:28
Think he has a chalkboard where every anagram of master is
14:33
written out so he can choose a new one each time.
14:37
Quite possibly, yes. Yeah.
14:40
Fraser, I think this story could suit the meddling monk.
14:44
Yes, yes, it could have done, couldn't it?
14:48
This is exactly the sort of high jinks in history that he would
14:50
have got up to. It's it will be a little bit
14:52
repetitive, I think, because it's sort of like the same, I
14:56
mean would cut this centuries down the line, but it's the same
14:59
sort of period. You know, it's it's going to be
15:01
what's the same effect? What I'm going to try and, you
15:03
know, make some money or, you know, do something.
15:07
But at the same time, they were the that's not the point of the
15:09
story is not anything about Magna Carta is all about just
15:13
introducing Chameleon. He is so evil right?
15:17
He got out his durex no hang on Dulex Dulex black paint and
15:23
painted his whole console black. Yep, said our God grave.
15:27
How are they going to differentiate between me and the
15:29
doctor I know? I don't think you did the whole
15:32
thing. I think you just did a certain
15:33
section, just the section that the camera was going to zoom in.
15:35
On Fair enough. Very 4th wall breaking,
15:41
literally. Now the trouble with Episode 2
15:45
now is all of these historical characters that have been set up
15:48
are sort of periphery for everything because the real
15:53
drama is now playing out between the Doctor, Master and
15:55
Chameleon. It is, but at the same time, you
15:58
know, it's it's the master through the king.
15:59
So it's the king commanding Geoffrey now.
16:03
And you know the the kind of twig.
16:05
Oh, well, something is going on here.
16:06
We had with suspicions, you know, the king couldn't really
16:08
be, you know, get from one place to the other, you know, because
16:11
we haven't got like video phones or anything.
16:12
We can't just Skype the king and say Oh yeah, here in London, you
16:15
know, So they've had to, you know, try and puzzle it out.
16:18
And now obviously we've got a very big clue.
16:20
The masters yes, clearly this king is the is the wrong one,
16:23
but. Is it not a problem that Tegan
16:26
and Turlo get fuck all to do in this plot?
16:29
Like I mean nothing at all. Did they get to have fun?
16:33
That's all they're doing, having fun.
16:34
She's still complaining in a way I.
16:35
Just feel the Doctor's companions should have some kind
16:39
of a role in this. But the two the you know what
16:42
turtle? Well, turtle slaps a horse in a
16:44
minute, you know, So you know, the, it's, it's, it's periphery
16:52
stuff. But you know, they're still
16:53
doing little bits and bobs to, to help the plot along, you
16:57
know, And if nothing else, you know, it's, it's what's the
17:01
word? I'm not going to perspective
17:04
characters, you know, so you know turtles there now turtle.
17:08
He doesn't know the master, does he?
17:09
But he knows he's a wrong man. I mean it's.
17:11
Just so funny that the master comes in, he tries to convince
17:14
the nobility, Oh, there's an evil plot to defrone the king.
17:19
You know, he's like. Hang on black clothes.
17:27
I have seen this somewhere before and I am not trusting
17:30
you. That's right.
17:32
Do they even meet in Planet of Fire?
17:35
Oh, they do, don't they? He he stops the Doctor from
17:38
getting burnt. Yeah.
17:41
Oh, here we go. So, Ian.
17:42
No, wait, no. So Doctor of TARDIS, is that
17:47
what he calls him? Or does he just ignite him?
17:50
Just see a doctor, I think. But I say a doctor.
17:56
How wonderful. Oh wait, that's not the king
18:01
though. It's a fake.
18:02
It's. A fake it's a fake king, but it
18:07
it it does that classic thing of like, you know, doing a plot now
18:11
of and like hoping and assuming that the people will keep up
18:16
with what he's trying to do. So he's like, yes, I'm going to
18:18
pretend to betray you and take you to the initial, but I'm
18:20
really not. I'm just going to let you go and
18:21
get there. I really hope that is just twig
18:23
this, but he doesn't. Very like Black Orchid.
18:27
This, though, in that Black Orchid sets up a particular
18:30
story and then just abandons it in episode 2 and goes, well,
18:35
we're going to solve this murder issue here.
18:37
Come in the TARDIS, everyone. Oh, you must be innocent if
18:40
you've got a time space machine. Although we did that one before
18:44
Fraser, didn't we? We did, yes.
18:46
And we had this one we. Still got to do the Awakening
18:48
yet. We said we did war Three, didn't
18:49
we? We did, yes.
18:50
I think that might be the best of the three though, you know?
18:53
No, definitely, definitely. And it's interestingly the only
18:57
one not written by Terence Dudley.
19:03
It's not badly written this I don't think.
19:05
I really don't. I think you know as as a
19:07
two-part as a lightweight 2 part I've designed with a very
19:12
specific purpose, which is. But it's the length of a new
19:14
series episode, and you've seen what you can pack into a new
19:17
series episode, so I don't think you can say the length is an
19:20
excuse for it being as insubstantial as it.
19:23
Is, but it's not a new series episode, though it has got a
19:26
there's a break in the middle, you know, so you've got to have
19:29
you break in the middle where you see right where the action,
19:32
the story has to come to a point where we we have a cliffhanger
19:36
that then gets sort of resolved. The next point.
19:39
You know, if this was A and you wouldn't have that bit in the
19:42
middle, you wouldn't have halfway through, you wouldn't
19:44
all of a sudden go, Oh my God, it's the master reaction pose
19:48
and carry on. You know you could.
19:51
You could, but you wouldn't. You know you would use use that
19:55
that time the the pace would be completely different in a in a
19:58
new story 1. Is there anything more
20:00
pantomimic than Anthony Ainley tiptoeing around in the shadows
20:05
is here? It's in The Five Doctors.
20:06
I just love it every time. He's all camply tiptoeing around
20:11
being evil. It's I, I don't think it's
20:13
pantomime, though. I think you know, where does the
20:16
Master of this incarnation of the Master end up eventually in
20:19
survival, turning into a cat. Think about alive in Planet of
20:23
Fire. Think of him not as a pantomime,
20:26
but as a cat. Yeah, my show me actually.
20:30
He does tiptoe around in the dark as well.
20:32
He prowls, he doesn't tiptoe, he prowls.
20:35
Think about that. There's a there is a bit in mark
20:38
of the Irani. I think it is where in the
20:40
clearly just doesn't want to step in shit and he's creeping
20:43
around, but he just looks. He looks, he looks very like a
20:47
Panther, like a black. Panther, he's so light footed.
20:50
Yeah, he's are you? Saying the master is a cat.
20:52
It's cat like do. You think he looks at the
20:54
timeline then and he goes this is mine, that's mine, that's
20:58
mine except for that bed. I don't want that.
21:01
But all the rest of this is mine.
21:07
OK that is a good description of him though.
21:10
But can he be a camp cat? Because ain't he's quite cat.
21:15
But it's, it's, it's definitely like, it's a feline sort of
21:17
thing, is that? You're never leaving the
21:20
compressor here. For the master she goes.
21:23
Yes, I'm going to set. I need to set up the next
21:25
episode. Tegan, behave yourself with.
21:28
What I love it's in a minute when the Master gets put in the
21:32
box, obviously knowing it's his TARDIS, but just acts along like
21:36
the ham that he has. No, please.
21:39
He's. Done that bit, he's done that
21:42
bit. He's now he's now I.
21:44
Miss that bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:45
Oh, bloody hell. This is singing by now.
21:47
He's. He's now convincing the rest and
21:50
the ability that the Doctor is the bad guy and he's the he's
21:53
I'm the I'm known as the master. This this guy called the Doctor
21:57
is clearly bad, but the Master, yes, I'm the I'm the good guy.
22:02
Can I be brutal? Yeah, go on then.
22:05
I don't really care that the doctor Tegan and tell her in
22:09
this anymore because Anthony Ainley is going from one set of
22:12
characters to another, fooling them all and having the best
22:17
time. Look at it now.
22:18
He's sitting in the chair drinking his wine.
22:21
Oh please. Yeah, he's having the best.
22:24
Everyone's just having the best time.
22:26
You could just, I mean, think of ATV show just called Master
22:30
about Anthony Aingley going about the universe and having
22:33
scrapes and shapes like this. Yep.
22:37
Which which, which time you have time have I landed in now It's
22:43
the Victoria. Well, I'm going to have a really
22:45
good day. I'm going to make a lot of
22:47
things mine and I'm going to can't see if I can't have sex
22:49
with someone meow. Right.
22:51
Yeah, because I'm back on at Henrietta Street where that
22:54
whole house is fabulous. Yeah, actually it would be a lot
22:57
more fun, don't you think it? Would.
23:00
Yeah, we could. We he could have a companion as
23:02
well. You know, they should pitch.
23:04
Cute man with the blonde hair. We should pitch this to Big
23:07
Finish. Or what?
23:09
Call it milestone. They may have done it once or
23:11
twice. I don't know.
23:13
Oh, this is great. Look, the soldier, now he gets
23:16
shot in the back. I swear it comes to the master
23:18
going, Oh my God, he's the best. Train.
23:25
I mean, I can't. I might be learning to love the
23:29
King's team is here. I just need to reframe it away
23:33
from Doctor Who and make it the Master show.
23:35
You do exactly it is it's setting your expectations and
23:40
your perspective does does wonders.
23:42
Look, he's foiled all these medieval idiots, the Master,
23:46
like he's convinced them all. Yep, yeah, but.
23:50
Poor Tegan, she just gets the odd line.
23:54
Turtle has got captured again, so he's having a great time
23:58
doing this. Brilliant thing.
23:59
It's what he does best. It is what he does.
24:01
That's right, put us in the blue engine.
24:03
We'll never get out. In goes Tegan.
24:07
In goes Tegan. Tegan's going to fly the TARDIS
24:09
now because. Is she going to do it the same
24:11
way she did in for the Doomsday? Sort of having an orgasm over
24:14
the console. Pretty much, Yeah, pretty much.
24:17
Oh my word. Well, now they're definitely
24:19
going to think they're demons. She's just sent the TARDIS off.
24:24
Grabs his coat because he needs his coat back.
24:26
Doesn't Peter Davidson look great in those clothes?
24:29
Those historical clothes? Jesus Christ, look at this whole
24:33
fucking army coming after him from Doctor.
24:39
Oh Crash, zoom Janet, What was she thinking there?
24:44
We weren't quite sure really, weren't we?
24:47
I think she was thinking, oh fuck, I've gone somewhere else
24:50
now. Not again.
24:52
Fraser I like to think there's actually a whole couple of box
24:55
sets, a big finish of adventures she had before she went back to
24:58
get them again. Well, oh, what was that?
25:01
You give me the the Target book where there's like an adventure
25:06
of Adric and Nyssa in between the visitation where you know
25:13
the bit where they go back to fix the vibrator in her bedroom
25:15
and then the Tardar shoots off and have some sort of mark.
25:18
I mean, I've not read all of it yet.
25:19
Oh, have you not? Oh.
25:21
Yeah, Matthew. Matthew.
25:23
Matthew Waterhouse, right. It's the most Adric of Adric
25:26
tales ever. Now here's Chameleon.
25:30
Here's Chameleon. And I do also want to say there
25:32
was a shot of the Doctor going down that corridor with a great
25:36
load of depth to it. There was on several layers of
25:38
depth and you had the lovely flaming braziers all round.
25:41
The Doctor, it's a very great shot.
25:43
I think he looks great. The head looks great, but when
25:47
he stands up, I mean he looks like he's going to fall over
25:49
straight away. He does keep him seated there.
25:55
Fraser Why didn't they just bring in a different actor every
25:58
week and have that be Chameleon that's it's there for?
26:04
The taking. It's there for the taking every
26:05
week. J&T could have brought in a
26:07
celebrity every week. Yeah, I think you.
26:10
I mean, I don't know if logistically you're probably
26:14
thinking, well, I still need to have the chameleon to show that
26:16
this is this week's chameleon. Unless because you can't just
26:19
keep doing the whole Ramana regeneration thing of like
26:22
walking through. Oh, so this is what you look
26:23
like now, chameleon. You look like Terry Wogan.
26:26
Hey, you know, you'd you'd still have to have the the sort of
26:31
like transition between or maybe.
26:35
Please, Chameleon just turned into the master and went quite
26:39
masterly. Oh God.
26:43
So now we sort of push away from the historical characters and
26:47
there's a battle of wheel wars between the Doctor and the
26:50
Master as to who can control Chameleon.
26:52
Is that right? It is, yes, but we we have poor
26:55
Jeffrey Dudasie who is about to die and everyone's going to piss
26:57
themselves a laughing. Why is the master stroking
27:00
Chameleon's arm like they've been having it off?
27:04
Well, you know. I don't even want to know,
27:06
actually. I bet he made Chameleon turn in
27:08
sort of Ronnie and they had a great time.
27:10
I. Probably made the comedian turn
27:12
in himself and had a great time. Yeah, I can't believe that's you
27:17
saying that and not me. What has happened to you?
27:21
Oh my gosh. Deviant Art.
27:24
You'll see much Master Paul in there, you know.
27:26
Five years we've been doing this.
27:27
That's what's happened to me. OK, fair enough.
27:29
Oh, so you look his head moved around quite well then.
27:32
There's not a person in there at all, is there?
27:33
No, no, no, it's it's but it's it's and even at this point, I
27:38
think I think I might insane that they've they've lost the
27:41
guy who created it and was able to control the property.
27:44
So even now with the like now what kind of work this, what
27:46
kind of work this property? Oh my word, they leaned in
27:51
really close there, didn't they? The Doctor and the Master.
27:54
Comes to look how look how fed up he is.
27:57
It's class now. He goes.
27:59
You're always frightening me. Without the slightest
28:02
justification, I'm. Trying to help him, for Christ's
28:07
sake. I love Mark Strickson to warn
28:11
the King. Are you mad?
28:15
What's wrong with you people? Don't you understand?
28:19
Actually, this doesn't remind me of a Chris Shippel story.
28:21
Now we're left with all of these superfluous characters and no
28:25
plot to end for them. Oh no, he's dead.
28:29
I love Blair's wet. That's our laugh.
28:31
Another point. Jeffrey Delacy is dead.
28:34
Yes, yes. Oh God, is that why she's not
28:37
coming up from his chest? Oh, no, he he just blinked.
28:43
Did you say? Oh dear, I think they should
28:49
have cut that a bit sooner. Oh, bless him.
28:53
I mean, there was. A for new the King streamers
28:56
could be this fun. Make me told you.
29:01
And there's there's like an attempt to justify, isn't it the
29:03
master's plan? He was like, well, you know,
29:05
I'll do this and I'll I'll take chameleon.
29:07
I'll go to every civilization in the universe and I'll go back in
29:10
their history and I'll unpick, you know, the the webs of, you
29:14
know, the important bits and you know, then they'll be I'll be
29:17
able to take them over in the future.
29:19
But he's just he's just pissing about.
29:21
That's what he is. I think if you're, you're right,
29:24
if you can sort of reframe this and think not that this as sort
29:27
of like a wipe out half the universe, but sort of I'm just
29:31
going on a city break, you know, from my plans.
29:34
Absolutely, yeah. And I've got this robot.
29:37
We can have a bit of fun in history, right?
29:39
So what's going on with his stomach there?
29:41
Why has he got that sort of green crystal in his stomach?
29:44
Because he's a robot. Right.
29:47
Is that what powers him? Possibly, yeah.
29:51
I mean, it might be, it might be like a fridge for the Masters
29:53
dinner, but you know. Multi purpose chameleon.
29:59
He's like a washer dryer. You open up his stomach.
30:01
He ticks. I mean, he's always trouble when
30:04
he every time he turns up things go horribly wrong.
30:06
Planet of Fireman, oh the master.
30:10
Chaos shall rain, and I shall be at Semperor.
30:16
I mean, he's, he's looking quite good at the minute.
30:18
The must. I think he's I like his hair in
30:19
this. Why wasn't Ansi Ainley just
30:23
given a show to front? I mean, look at him, yeah.
30:27
He's that's why wasn't Roger Delgado given.
30:31
A But Roger Gogado got a lot of work, OK and the Ainley did this
30:35
and play cricket and that was it.
30:36
Well, didn't he need the work? Or was he?
30:40
No, he was so. Very well, wasn't he I?
30:42
Don't know if he was self-made or if it was a like a family
30:44
inheritance but he was very well off.
30:46
Yeah, he didn't need to act at all.
30:48
Yeah, probably just. Eric's that was said he used to
30:51
pick up the phone and go this is the master and do the laugh.
30:57
They'd be like, oh, and today. Hello, we're rehearsing next
30:59
week. I mean, there's probably a, you
31:03
know, something about be getting tape cast as well, isn't it?
31:05
You know, it's like it's, I mean, nowadays you see someone
31:09
in Doctor Who, you expect them to go and see them somewhere
31:11
else doing a different role. But you know, it's probably all,
31:13
well, we're not going to cast stand to the inning in this
31:15
because everyone just think he's the master.
31:16
I mean, he'll just turn up and play the master part and.
31:19
I mean, it was a more savvy move to have him in it once a season,
31:23
wasn't it? Unlike Delgado, who did that
31:26
whole season of stories. This is quite nice, isn't it?
31:30
Yeah, That's actually good editing.
31:31
Yeah. Oh, look.
31:33
Oh, they've got the old Quantel effects going there.
31:37
Who's going to win then in the Battle of Wales?
31:40
Oh. It's it's going to be run off.
31:48
I said Battle of Wales, and I meant it innocently as well, you
31:52
know, look. At the Master.
31:54
Oh my God, how? I look, you know, when I'm,
31:58
well, I won't say after I've had a particularly hard Curry, oh
32:07
gosh, who's going to win? Who's going to win?
32:11
It's like the end of the brain of Morbius all like, oh, it's
32:14
turned into. Teagan, I've had quite enough of
32:20
you. Whoever you are, so don't try me
32:24
too far. It's probably enough.
32:28
I have had it with this motherfucking must have in this
32:31
motherfucking castle. Open a window, Get Me Out.
32:34
Yeah. Medieval misfits.
32:37
Oh my God, do you know what I think I just needed to get off
32:41
myself when I was younger, you know, and enjoy our camp.
32:43
This is it's very camp. It's.
32:45
Great fun. It is just fun.
32:47
There's two Teagans in the room. Well, one's chameleon, so there
32:51
you go. Oh, turn.
32:52
I was thinking there's possibilities here.
32:55
Oh my word. Oh, he's standing up.
32:58
Look, he's he's standing up. He's standing up, Yeah.
33:02
So did Chameleon rescue the maskers from the planet
33:04
Zerophis? I think the master phone
33:07
Chameleon on Zerophis is partly. I don't know if it was like
33:10
Chameleon helped him escape or he just picked him up when he
33:12
did escape, but. Another thing to blame time
33:14
flight for. Yes, very much so.
33:18
I do like the fact you can see all the circuitry.
33:20
Look where his cock is. Yeah, Do you see?
33:23
It's a plug in attachment isn't it?
33:25
It does look like a cock though, doesn't it?
33:27
It's. Plug in attachment.
33:28
I mean, come on now. The creighton's groan or
33:32
something. We're just sitting the Master
33:33
get away in this TARDIS. But has he?
33:36
I'm not rising to your feel for I can hear what you're saying.
33:40
Because, you know, the doctors put the dildo on the on the
33:44
above it and we'll see how he turns up in his next appearance.
33:49
So can I ask, are we just assuming then that all the
33:52
medieval characters are OK because we never go back to
33:55
them? I mean, Jeffrey Delacey's not
33:57
going to walk away from this one, but.
33:59
Now the fake King John's gone, everyone could just get on with
34:02
their lives. They can, yes.
34:03
Oh, OK. All right.
34:05
I mean there is probably ain't much of a coder is it for them?
34:08
I think there is, there is probably a little bit of
34:10
explaining to do. It's like, well, where did the
34:11
king go? All these soldiers are here.
34:13
Where's where's Jill Estram, Where's the king gone?
34:19
But you know, at least they can have the money back.
34:22
The exposed skull on Chameleon's head is really good and you can
34:26
see all the circuits inside it. Like the component parts are
34:29
good. The overall effect it it does
34:31
look flimsy. I mean, that's the good thing
34:33
about it is, is you know it, it doesn't look like a man in a
34:36
costume And you know, you look at it and you go that is
34:38
actually a robot. It's not just someone dressed up
34:40
as a robot. It's not like you know Howard in
34:43
silver paint doing good. But the equivalent Fraser is,
34:48
this is how we know he's not a success.
34:50
The equivalent is Yas joining in the woman who fails to Earth,
34:54
but then we don't see her again until Power of the Doctor, where
34:58
she's written out. Yeah, You know, I mean, I can't.
35:01
I'm not sure we could call him a huge success.
35:03
We can't, but because it's, you know, he's he's been
35:06
deliberately set up to be a companion.
35:08
Now what you've got to think is, well, why?
35:11
If the new at this point, I mean, again, I think it's from
35:16
the they make an off documentary on the Blueway.
35:19
They're saying, you know this guy who built him, you know,
35:21
died in his speedboat crash before studio sessions.
35:26
If you know that, then you know you have a little bit of a tweak
35:29
of the script. You just say, well, I'm
35:31
comedian, I came from the planet Zergadou.
35:34
And the doctor says, Oh well, I've set the coordinates for
35:36
Zergadou. We'll nip there and we'll drop
35:37
you off and it's. I do like Planet of Fire and I
35:40
do like what they do with him in that wonderful scene where the
35:45
Doctor's about to be burned and he's talking to Chameleon and
35:49
doing that psychological attack on him and stuff.
35:52
And I like him becoming Howard and and being just chosen.
35:57
So there was there was story. Ideas there Definitely,
36:00
definitely, definitely, but you know, it's the problem is it's
36:04
like you say, it doesn't go anywhere.
36:05
Your next? No, The next one for me has five
36:08
doctors, No chameleon, and then you've got warriors.
36:10
I just think it shows a lack of imagination that you have
36:13
literally set up this character to be played by an actor and you
36:18
don't take that choice when you can't use the fucking robot.
36:22
But again, you know, it's, you know, how much do you need to
36:24
use the robot? If you go down that route of
36:25
like, well, actually, we'll, we'll, we'll have chameleon as a
36:29
what could recast Chameleon completely.
36:32
You could just be like, well, I'm, you know, you could do the
36:35
whole Romana thing. Like, you know, he just walks
36:37
out the doors like, hi, doctor, I'm Chameleon now.
36:39
I am now played by, you know, unnamed British actor.
36:45
Or just do a Frobisher and just have it just change once into a
36:49
person and go well this. Is who I am now.
36:52
This is, this is. And I'm I, you know, if I need
36:55
to, I will change shape again. And then you could be like, OK,
36:57
tell you what, Kamino would be really handy, as if someone that
37:00
looked just like that character over there walked through that
37:02
door right now. And.
37:03
There's such great storytelling possibilities, isn't there?
37:06
Yeah. And then he changes, he changes
37:08
back to you know, you know person.
37:12
We can truly scupper the villain's plans.
37:14
You become the villain and go in there and talk to him and change
37:18
all the. Plans, you know, at the same
37:20
time, you you think by by the time we'll get to the end of 21,
37:23
there's there's obviously the the the don't want to in the
37:26
TARDIS. Well, there are three in the
37:29
TARDIS, as it were. They just want to get you know,
37:31
we've had excuse me, we've had, you know, the the three, you
37:39
know, we've had, you know, Adric Tegan.
37:42
This went down to two. We're going down to one.
37:46
We don't want. You know, essentially, even if
37:49
we went down that from day one, this is the argument that they
37:53
would have written comedian. I would plan to fire you anyway
37:55
just to just to get it down to the doctor in Perry 4.
37:58
It was a scene, wasn't it? There was a scene in the
38:00
Awakening, yes. He was supposed to be in.
38:02
That's not just to remind us all that he's still in the cupboard.
38:05
Yeah, deleted scene isn't there so.
38:07
They could have put him in the library.
38:08
Just shot it in a library. Take the bloody robot, sit him
38:11
in a chair and go. I'm still doing your filing,
38:13
doctor. You know, like you.
38:15
Put a hand. I'm still here.
38:17
I'm cleaning up. I'm Justine.
38:19
Remembering the Time Meddler where we had those insanely
38:25
glorious scenes of the meddling monk in the TARDIS, pulled down
38:29
his little chart and he had a a tick list of things to do, Meet
38:33
King Harold, set up the bazookas and all of this.
38:36
Yeah, yeah, I just wish we could have had a scene at the end of
38:38
this with the master going ohh, that was fun right?
38:42
Now pull down the thing. Hmm.
38:45
Now should I go and see the Rani or shall I go to the planet Sun?
38:49
Let me have. A look.
38:52
Sure. Now what skies have I got today?
38:55
He. Pulls it down, he goes right.
38:57
GL Estram, Cross that one off. I've done Manchester.
39:00
Yeah, I've done that one. Oh my God, I just remembered I
39:03
took that scarecrow costume off that guy from the Wizard of Oz.
39:07
I've still got that in the cupboard.
39:09
I could use that for something. And then no event.
39:13
And then he's doing that. Where should I go?
39:16
And then the phone rings. He goes.
39:18
Hello, High Council of Gallifrey, You say 3:00.
39:24
Well, yes, I will. Be there, of course.
39:26
It's the Fire Doctors. Next, we've got a special
39:31
assignment for you. There's some regenerations in it
39:34
for you if you come. OK, I picked you picked my
39:37
interest. Hang on a minute, I don't go by
39:40
any teleport beam. Well, we have an open boosted
39:44
trials mod. Beam, we go down Nice.
39:48
And what's the assignment? No, no, no.
39:50
We can't tell you till you're here.
39:51
Hush, hush and all that. It's like when Captain Picard
39:54
summoned and they never give him the details till he arrives, you
39:56
know, I mean, it would be nice. We are obviously putting a very
40:02
postmodern. After the classic series spin on
40:05
all of this, I would have loved it if there'd have been a bit
40:08
more knowing. Like generally all we get is.
40:12
Oh, so you escaped from dot dot dot?
40:15
It is. Yeah.
40:15
You escaped from Zervis. Yes, I did.
40:17
Or you weren't burned a light on certain.
40:19
No, I wasn't. I'm indestructible.
40:21
The whole universe knows that. Does he say that?
40:24
Possibly, yeah. I think, you know, we possibly
40:30
don't need the line. We it's like it's never
40:32
explained how the master did. It's like, well, do we need to
40:36
do we really need to to have that?
40:38
You know, it's always brought up.
40:39
It's like when we'll have someone in the new series who's
40:43
already appeared in the new series.
40:45
So you know, when you have Peter Cabaldi and he looked like
40:50
calculus and you know, Martha looked like her cousin, you
40:54
know, so there's a or, you know, even as far now as Belinda,
41:01
Belinda channel looking like the the last one.
41:04
Boom, you know, there's there's there's need to try and kind of
41:06
explain it. It's like you don't need to.
41:09
No, but I mean I'm talking about a Noah wink like like Hulk does
41:13
at the end of Doctor Who in the Space War, where he has the
41:16
Master go in after the Daleks have gone and the Doctor's gone
41:19
and he tied his up his papers and goes ohh, that's another
41:22
scheme ruined. Ohh, well I think of a new one
41:24
tomorrow and it goes off. You know that sort of knowing, I
41:28
mean the most knowing the Master is in the 80s is in ultimate Foe
41:35
where he turns up on the screen and goes well, I've been
41:37
watching the TV for the last the last 10 episodes.
41:41
What a load of shit it's been. I've been having a great time
41:45
watching this shit. It's.
41:48
Been brilliant. I do wonder, you know, if Angley
41:51
works better when he isn't being portrayed as a serious villain.
41:56
Absolutely not. Absolutely.
41:57
Yeah. I think he can do it.
41:59
And we'll see him do it in survival when he's allowed to,
42:01
when he's allowed to actually say it to him actually, you
42:04
know, play this like you would if it wasn't Doctor Who, if we
42:07
weren't telling you to camp it up.
42:08
You know, you play it as as you would.
42:10
You see that in survival and you really excels at it.
42:13
But other than that, yeah, just give him his head.
42:16
Just say right. OK, so this is, you know, daft
42:18
as fuck. You are a man having fun with
42:23
whatever you're doing. Go and do that.
42:26
And in this one, what's? The objection to panto in
42:28
Doctor, I mean, one, there's so much of it.
42:31
You can't look for panto in Doctor Who.
42:34
Whether it's the Horns of Nyman, the chase Time, and the Rani,
42:38
it's everywhere. He's behind you, Oh great
42:41
monster, you know, And the Master in the 80s, he is
42:45
effectively A panto villain, right?
42:47
He comes in, hams it up, gets in the way and then departs.
42:53
But it's it's, it's, it's very much the show that John Nathan
42:56
Turner was trying to make was a light entertainment show.
42:58
He wasn't trying to do a drama show.
43:00
You know, he was, he was light entertainment.
43:02
And I always, I always say, what's the objection?
43:05
The objection is that people want guns and not frocks.
43:08
You know they're mad. The objection is.
43:10
You've got guns in the world now.
43:12
We could do with a few more frocks.
43:14
The objection is, well, you know, we had powers been to
43:16
Mars, we had to be in a Mobius. We've had sit down.
43:20
Yeah, it's, I mean the. Still got Resurrection of the
43:23
Daleks. Yeah, come in, you know.
43:26
I think, I think the, the issue I always have with this era is
43:29
when Seaward and GNT are completely at odds.
43:35
You know that that's when you get, you know, something that
43:37
doesn't when they when they align, You know, when GNT kind
43:41
of let's say, would you know, have his death and misery,
43:45
something like earth shock, Earth shock, then it works.
43:48
Likewise when CA would let's GNT just have a romp, have a, you
43:54
know, a light hearted comedy romp like this, you know, really
43:58
works. Do you know when I think they're
43:59
absolutely at most at In Sync? And it's so sad because it's
44:03
when the axe came down. I think it's revelation of the
44:06
Daleks because you've got JNT who specifically said to Eric,
44:10
go away and just write this and have fun writing this and and
44:15
give give me a great Dalek story.
44:17
And so he does it. He goes away and he writes
44:19
probably his best script and then he gives it to JNT and JNT
44:23
casts. It is for the fucking
44:25
celebrities left, right and centre.
44:27
It's it's it's it's that Tonio. It's it's a dark, depressing
44:32
script, but GNT camps camps at the foot up.
44:35
He casts the Lexi seal in it for God's.
44:37
Sake, don't you remember Eleanor Braun?
44:39
Yeah, the president ship. What a delicious sight, she
44:42
goes. He casts, what do you call him?
44:45
Duel Bell. What's his name?
44:46
Clay. Clay, Yeah, you know.
44:50
Those rose red Ruby lips were made for kissing.
44:53
You know, and then he gives it to Graham Harper and says,
44:56
right, go make something. Lots of energy.
45:00
Lots of energy. Get the smoking.
45:03
Come on. But let's say I think in this
45:05
one, in the King's demons, what we are just saying is just that
45:08
pure, you know, GNT, you know, say what is about?
45:10
Well, OK, I'll kill one of them off.
45:13
That's that's me compromised. One person's going to die.
45:16
I'll leave the rest. You can have your fun.
45:19
And it's it's just it is just this distillation of of what he
45:24
was trying to achieve there. You know, you've got the great
45:26
cast and it's not stunt cast and you're not having anyone playing
45:29
anything out of type that you might get an earth Chuck or
45:33
cursor Fenrick. But it's so well cast.
45:35
It's so well produced. You know, the direction is spot
45:38
on. And next he does that typical
45:39
GNT of thing going right, you're too good.
45:41
I'm not having you back, whatever reason, but it just
45:44
works so well. And it's just that gimmick, you
45:48
know, the two gimmicks, the, the, the masters disguise, which
45:51
you know, we've laughed, we're heads off at it and we've took
45:54
the piss out of it. But it's enjoyable for that
45:56
reason that we can laugh the piss out of it.
45:59
Bizarre reaction to this because the first episode, which I
46:02
usually quite rate, and I did rate here, it's it's within a
46:08
sort of squint of being a serious Doctor Who historical
46:12
romp, right? It's it's presenting that for
46:15
most of it's running time and there was lots to sort of praise
46:19
about it there. We'll do our fabulous things in
46:21
a minute. But I think I had more fun with
46:23
the second episode, which I usually hate because it was just
46:27
Anthony Aidley in the raft or somewhere having the best time
46:31
just winding everybody up. It's when it stopped being
46:36
Doctor Who and it started being the Master.
46:39
Yeah, he's just sneaking up behind people going, hey, the
46:42
doctor over there, he said. Your dad sells the Avon sneaking
46:46
up. You Remember Remember when in
46:48
Psycho, that fabulous Alfred Hitchcock movie, and for sort of
46:52
the first half an hour you're following Janet Lee around and
46:55
you're absolutely convinced the stories all about her and then
46:59
she's Bruce Lee murdered in the shower and it all becomes about
47:04
the psychopathic killer Norman Bates?
47:07
Well, The King's Demons is the modern day version of it.
47:10
It starts off as your regular Doctor Who story with a Doctor
47:13
Tegan and Turlo, and then halfway through it becomes a
47:16
camp classic starring Anthony Ainley.
47:19
As the master. Anthony's, Ainley and Perkins.
47:22
I can barely see the difference between well, look.
47:28
Oh, what fun. Let's do our three fabulous
47:31
things, shall we? I'll have everyone to have
47:32
difficulty. No, none at all.
47:34
You go first. Right, I should go first at
47:38
well, I mean, I've got a start at the top then, haven't I?
47:41
Ainley himself the reason why if you can't look at my DACO
47:46
reviews. I'm scathing about him and I
47:49
think I was one of those fans, you know, took myself a bit too
47:51
seriously. You know, I think I wanted death
47:54
and destruction and Doctor Who to be treated as a serious thing
47:57
back in the day of DACO reviews. I've gone over myself in the in
48:00
the latter years and met people like you, you know, likes all
48:03
the trash. So I now I enjoy it all.
48:06
No, no, I did say recently though I did say recently when I
48:09
watched Time Lash, I had a great time with Paul Arthur and we
48:13
laughed ourselves silly at that probably.
48:16
You know, in terms of production, the worst Doctor Who
48:19
story ever made. And yeah, like all classic
48:23
Doctor Who, I've just got an over the production value and I
48:27
just enjoy it for what it is. I think I might be there with my
48:33
God, but I think there the reason I enjoyed that so much is
48:37
I was just watching Anthony Angley, whether he's donning
48:40
that beard and ridiculous accent or whether he's dressed up like
48:44
a Penguin tiptoeing around the castle, just having the best
48:48
time. I mean the stupid lines he gets
48:50
about wheels being weak medieval misfits quite masterly.
48:56
I mean it. This ain't Polish dialogue, but
48:59
when you let a cured ham like Anthony Ainley saying the words,
49:06
it's delirious. So Ainley stroke the master.
49:11
Right. OK.
49:13
I think I'll pick just the rest of the cast and then, you know.
49:16
Don't get me a lot of options. Thank you.
49:18
OK, right. I'll pick Gerald Flood then.
49:20
Because, you know, we're talking about cured hams.
49:23
I mean, you know, he's, he's, he's got.
49:26
Bill Song he is, yeah. But he's he's he's playing
49:30
what's what's he playing? He's playing King John, but he's
49:31
not playing King John. He's playing King John played by
49:34
a robot, and he has to play the robot as well.
49:36
I. Don't teach that a rather.
49:38
Do they they certainly don't. They certainly don't.
49:40
So you know, he's he's coming in and he's just, you know, he's he
49:44
is in the rafters with the master in his performance.
49:47
But you know that it's, it's like I say 10 studies giving cod
49:53
Shakespeare dialogue. So Flood takes a cold
49:57
Shakespeare approach. You know, he goes, this is, this
50:00
is daft children's entertainment, light
50:01
entertainment. So I'm going to play it exactly
50:04
as it deserves to be. And I'm going to have fun with
50:07
this and fun he has. Well, I mean, I don't disagree.
50:12
If I did, I would boil in oil, but I shan't be doing.
50:17
Oh, we have not boiled in Oil in a while by David.
50:23
I want to lavish some praise on the set design.
50:27
I think it's very easy to lavish praise on the location work
50:31
because it's a beautiful castle. They don't really have to do
50:34
much work there. But the set design, and in
50:36
particular those big, they're not really long shots because
50:40
they're not long sets. But the set, the shots that take
50:44
in the whole of the set, the banquet table, the flaming
50:47
brassieres, the stone walls filling them full of extras, the
50:51
dogs, the Joker. I mean, there's a lot of money
50:56
there on the screen. We said that all the way through
50:59
the first episode. I don't know who designed this
51:02
story. I am a bit in the dark, but I
51:05
salute them because I think it's a tip top job for something
51:08
that's sort of a throwaway bit of fluff.
51:10
You really didn't have to put this much effort and detail into
51:14
the design work, but you did very well indeed.
51:17
Oh. It doesn't have it on Wikipedia,
51:20
the set designer, but. Hobie will be going, you fools,
51:25
you medieval misfits. He did this, it was this person,
51:28
and they did this one and this one and this one.
51:31
Anyhow, we love you Toby. So my, I will praise the
51:36
location with them because it's brilliant.
51:38
You know, it's, it's not just, you know, the set in this podium
51:41
castle setting, which is just proper toy box castle, isn't it?
51:45
It's like if you close your eyes, you ask a kid, you know,
51:48
close your eyes, draw yourself a castle, you know, this is that's
51:51
exactly what you get. So it's a brilliant, brilliant
51:54
location. But all the location, which so
51:56
the jousting scenes as well, you know, where, you know, you've
51:59
got this, you know, proper, proper jousting action.
52:02
And it's not just, you know, like camera trick where you've
52:05
actually got people on horses, you know, going at each other
52:08
and twatting each other with sticks.
52:11
Really good. So yeah, I just think the
52:14
location and again, prime example of what you get with
52:18
GNT, you get, you know, you go to somewhere to fill them, a
52:21
castle and you get everything, every scrap of budget, every
52:24
cent. You know, it leaves nothing
52:26
behind you, leaves you under no illusion as to where you are and
52:30
what's happening. I do wonder, you know, if maybe
52:34
you just had 20% more a season, every story could have made
52:39
shine, but unfortunately they took episodes of money away they
52:43
didn't add. I think that the the issue with
52:45
him and his you know, is is that it wasn't the best at budget.
52:51
And so, you know, you see it with, you know, time flight.
52:57
By that point, you'd run out of cash, you know, if you hadn't a
52:59
hard Barbie let's in season 18. Pretty sure you know log up list
53:04
woods. Oh I mean the season logopolis
53:07
are very cheap. The are the are and it's you
53:11
know, it's it's it's the reason that we get the twin dilemma
53:14
where it is, is because he said right, if this is going to
53:16
happen, if this is going to be, you know, if this one's going to
53:19
fall through, I don't want the last deal was last episode to
53:22
base. You know, it needs to be perfect
53:26
for him. So that's why twin Dynamo is the
53:29
way it is, because he knew what was going to happen.
53:31
So I think he'd give him 20% more budget.
53:32
He's going to spend that 20% more budget on the wrong story.
53:37
You're still going to have this one that at the end is like, you
53:39
know, well, this needed 20%. Well, you've made this one look
53:42
even better, but at the expense of this one.
53:44
I still think he works wonders though in in the best of his
53:47
stories he makes them look like actual like, like American
53:52
productions, you know? When he's on form, you know when
53:55
when he is, you know, producing and he's engaged and he's
53:59
concentrating on what he's doing and he's been a producer, yes,
54:02
it's fantastic because you see his job is, you know, the cast
54:06
in the, the overall look and feel and story of the show.
54:10
He absolutely nails it. It's just obviously does
54:13
sometimes get it a little bit wrong as well.
54:15
Best are just the best looking though, aren't they?
54:18
Remembrance of the Daleks, Revelation of the Daleks.
54:21
Go Sly, you know the best of his era.
54:24
I'll just do best looking Doctor Who stories.
54:26
Well, we did say that The King's Demons exemplifies the best and
54:30
the worst of J&T. So my last choice is Chameleon
54:35
Who. I think, I think the best of
54:37
J&T. It's bold, it's ambitious, it's
54:42
different. He's trying to do something
54:44
unique. He's handing storytelling
54:48
possibilities to his script editor.
54:51
The worst of JNC, there's no fucking way it would ever would
54:54
have worked as a physical practicality like the Merka,
54:59
like things like that. It's like people, you don't even
55:01
think it. You can't do it.
55:04
So I think the the notion of chameleon is brilliant.
55:09
I think the amount of storytelling possibilities are
55:13
lost could fuel Big Finish for the next 20 years.
55:18
Absolutely. But it is a failure because not
55:23
just because the man died, but because they didn't have the
55:28
imagination. I don't think they did.
55:30
They didn't have the imagination to take it to where it needed to
55:34
go. It's the sort of thing that had
55:37
Stephen Moffett had it. Yeah, he could have.
55:40
He would have spun gold out of that idea, you know, you would
55:43
have had twists within twists, chameleons within chameleons,
55:48
you know, But unfortunately, we just weren't thinking that way
55:52
back then. And fair enough, it's a
55:54
different time, but I do. I don't think it's a bad idea.
55:59
I just think it's a bad idea. Absolutely.
56:03
It's yeah, pot's a bit a good idea.
56:06
Pot's it bad. Can't argue with that, right.
56:10
I'll wrap this up then with, with the last thing, my, you
56:13
know, third and final thing, it's just going to be how much
56:16
fun this is. You know, I've said it from the
56:19
start from the from dear one, it's a fun story.
56:22
Everyone is having fun. The characters are having fun.
56:25
The masters just having the best, best time just thinking
56:27
about something very low level. You know, Tegan's having great
56:30
fun because she's bitching about everything too.
56:31
And I was having great fun getting captured and recaptured
56:34
and recaptured and recaptured and then recaptured the doctors
56:39
having great fun sword fighting. But the the cast in the crew
56:42
were having great fun. You know, everyone's having
56:44
great fun, you know, down on location at the castle of doing
56:47
the joust and doing something a little bit different.
56:50
You know, you can just tell these people just having the
56:52
best time with each other making this.
56:54
And you know that that's, you know, the best Doctor Who always
56:57
has this running theme. You know, you you watch these
57:00
make and obviously watch listen to these commentaries.
57:02
You just, you know, you hear these regulars saying, oh, such
57:05
and such, you know, this person came in and was great to work
57:07
with. And I love Britain, you know,
57:09
and Oh yeah. And I thought, you know, the,
57:11
the everyone just welcomed us in and the regular was welcomed us
57:14
in as a guest actor. And all of this is just so
57:17
apparent here. Just comes across so much on the
57:19
screen. You know, everyone's just on the
57:21
top of the game having the best time.
57:23
And as a result, so am I when I watch it.
57:26
Isle of Blair does say Oh we laugh so much like the
57:30
absurdities of what they were asking us to do.
57:33
I mean, it's some of my favorite moments of the Behind the sofas
57:36
is where Janet Fielding goes tells you who were the
57:39
naughtiest people. Yeah.
57:41
Willow from the awakening that man, the really Camp 1 you We
57:45
must have our queen of the mayor and he sort of goes out of shot.
57:48
She goes look at him. He's gone out of shot before he
57:51
laughs his head. She goes he's behind that camera
57:54
laughing at all of us trying to act.
57:57
Yeah. And there is a bit of that hit
57:59
like I I will still say I think this is in consequential.
58:03
I think I will forget after today until the next time
58:07
someone mentions the King's demons.
58:10
No, and I won't disagree. I will say.
58:12
I think the person having the most fun is Anthony Hangley
58:14
though. Absolutely.
58:15
You know, it is inconsequential. You know it is.
58:18
It's like I say, it's, it's not a story with any big themes.
58:21
You know, this, this, you'll learn from it.
58:24
I think you, you can watch it and you go, well, I probably
58:26
come away and knowing a little bit more about Magna Carta and
58:28
King John and everything, then maybe I went in with it.
58:31
But you know, that's, that's the maybe the only thing you will
58:34
take away because everything else is, is again, it's so
58:36
inconsequential. But you know, that is light
58:39
entertainment. That is the nature of light
58:41
entertainment. You know, you don't go and watch
58:42
like I'm A Celebrity and Get Me Out here and then come we're
58:46
thinking, Oh, well, oh, I forget all about that because there
58:48
wasn't any decent themes in that or any, you know, you, you go
58:53
and watch it just to pass the time.
58:54
And that's exactly where we are said so many Times Now.
58:57
Set your expectations, set your perspective as you know a bit of
59:01
Doctor Who that will pass an hour without any effort on your
59:05
part that you can just sit back. And you might be that you just
59:09
take the piss out of Anthony and his accent.
59:11
It might be you just laugh at the master's disguise.
59:14
It might be that you just love a little bit of jousted and you
59:18
love a castle. Just have that expectation and
59:22
that way of looking at it when you go in and you're going to
59:24
enjoy it. You know, I mean, you won't
59:26
remember it, but when you go back next time you go back and
59:29
watch it, you will enjoy it. Ultimately, I don't think this
59:32
is a historical at all. I think it poses itself as a
59:34
historical, but ultimately it's a science fiction story with a
59:39
historical setting. And I did say to you before, I
59:42
think the very best of Doctor Who are the Hartnell and the
59:45
Chibnall historicals, just because I think as pieces of
59:49
drama, they are so good. This is a piece of drama.
59:53
This is a pantomime. It's absolutely not.
59:56
But I love a panto so I don't know why it's taking me this
59:58
long to enjoy the fucking thing. It is.
1:00:01
It's not a drama. It's late entertainment.
1:00:03
It's all frock and no guns. Like our kids set you all the
1:00:07
way through time, lash. Get over yourselves people and
1:00:10
love the King's demons. Absolutely.
1:00:13
If I can do it, why can't? Oh, trust me, getting over
1:00:18
myself is very hard indeed. Well, Fraser, I think we've got
1:00:24
we've got some trying times ahead.
1:00:27
I think it might finally be time for us to head somewhere that
1:00:30
we've been talking about for a long time now.
1:00:35
To convince me to enjoy this story would be your greatest
1:00:40
triumph yet. OK.
1:00:44
I feel as if we should head towards series 9 of the new
1:00:48
series and talk about Doctor Who throwing disabled people out of
1:00:56
their wheelchairs. What do you?
1:00:57
Think yes, we can discuss a really good episode of Doctor
1:01:00
Who and a really terrible one. Hey.
1:01:04
That's your name, Yeah. Well, you think 1's great and
1:01:06
one's terrible. One's terrible, yeah.
1:01:08
No, I thought you loved all of it.
1:01:10
No, I think 11 is, you know, trying to keep me powder dry a
1:01:16
little bit is one of the best opening episodes of Doctor Who
1:01:19
we've had in the new series. And one one has has got
1:01:24
literally the worst ever moment in Doctor Who.
1:01:26
So. Oh my God.
1:01:28
Well, that sounds absolutely Tyson.
1:01:29
What do you think? Do you think that'll be a good
1:01:30
next, next move? Yeah.
1:01:32
Let's do it. Come on, we've been saying for
1:01:34
ages, we have. I've got to cover this bullshit
1:01:37
eventually. I've got so many Moffit ones to
1:01:40
do and so few people that are willing to take me on with them.
1:01:44
We'll do it. We'll do it well.
1:01:46
Fraser, thank you very much for your time today, and thank you
1:01:49
for your continual crusade to get me to enjoy all of the,
1:01:53
let's say, misunderstood stories of Doctor Who.
1:01:57
Yes, that is my main mission, not just for you but for
1:02:00
everyone. So I hope people listening to
1:02:02
whom can now go away and enjoy the King's demons in the way
1:02:05
that nature intended. I feel we should change your
1:02:07
name from Champion of the Damned to Champion of the Misunderstood
1:02:12
that. Doesn't have the same ring.