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Transcript

Reframe: A Framework to Developing a Compassionate Care Instructional Model (With Special Guests) · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we Do? Welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to Why we Do what we Do? I am your
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: sticking to my guns host Abraham.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Hey, and I'm your We've always done it like this
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: in our science host Shane.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Actually, maybe I've used the sticking to your guns thing.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Maybe I need to switch that up. Well, it's okay,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: we're here now. We are a psychology podcast. Thank you
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: for joining us. We're excited to have you here. Today.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: We talked about all of the things that humans and
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: non human animals do, or a whole bunch of them
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: at least, maybe not all of them, but like a
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: good amount, I hope. And we're science podcast. I think
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: we have something special today because this discussion is going
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: to have three guests who just wrote a new book.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, they wrote a book called Reframe, and we will
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: share the links in the show notes and whatnot. But
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: we're so grateful to have these folks on here. So
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: for those of you who an't know, the book is
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: called Reframe, and it's written by Meg Solomon, Jen Ferris
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: and doctor Maricira and they are incredible people, powerhouses in
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: the field of behavior analysis and really pioneers in a
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: topic in behavior analysis around compassionate care that I feel
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: like people are missing the mark on as a general
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: as a whole, so like, it's nice to see them
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: doing this really cool, amazing, wonderful work and just really
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: getting ahead of the curve. And I say ahead of
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: the curve, but you'll see that maybe we're not so
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: ahead of the curve. It's like maybe something that we
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: should be paying attention to. But the interview is really great.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: They're really good people, they're really fun people, and we
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: were glad to have them.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: If you're listening to this, then you're not really in
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: behavior analysis or you don't really know what we're coming
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: from here. I will say this, there is very little
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: jargon in this discussion, almost none, possibly none at all.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: There are some references to things that you'll hear. We
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: talk about WEBA. That's the Women in Behavior Analysis Conference
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: for people who aren't familiar with that acronym, and there
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: may be some others that you'll hear. For the most part,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I think this is we use pretty accessible language, and
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I do think that the overall lessons embedded in this
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: discussion are pretty not uniquely specific to behavior analysis, meaning
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: that I think that this should apply broadly to really
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: all fields of all disciplines and fields of study, or
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: at least some of the lessons there. And I think
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: the critiques embedded inside of them are derived from experiences
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: within their work and behavior analysis. But the message I
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: think is applicable broadly.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll talk about it more at the end
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: of this, I'm sure. But like the big messages that
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: like we're humans and that we're humans in the human
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: services field, turns out surprise shocking that we're humans. And
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: I do think that, you know, the conversation comes across
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: very humanist, very humble, very just kind of like, hey,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: you know, we love what we do, but we've got
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: to do better.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you're joining us for the first time,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: this is kind of a weird one to come in on,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: but I hope that you enjoy what you hear today.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: And if you do, and you would like to support us,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: and you haven't already, there are several ways that you
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: can do that. You can join us on Patreon that's
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: our sort of club member cool kids group, but you
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: get some bonus content and early ad free content that
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: sort of thing. If you would like to not support
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: us financially, you can leave us a rating and review,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: like and subscribe. Tell a friend. I'll talk more about
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: the ways you can support us at the end of
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: this discussion. But we would be remiss if we did
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: not acknowledge that it was Freedom from Fear of Speaking Day.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: Ha.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, what a time to be alive right now, huh folks.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Indeed, it's also I Forgot.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Day, which I think for me is every day.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what day?
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I Forgot?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Who am? I?
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: Is?
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Second half of the year day. In case you weren't following,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: we just passed the summer equinox, the summer solstice. We're
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: headed into the steady decline toward winter again.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, Well in Florida we're just getting
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: too hotter times.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess the world is too. It's also
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Special Recreation for the Disabled Day.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Fun. It is World Sports Journalists Day, it is It's also.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: World UFO Day, which I kind of love that.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, I didn't know that was the thing that existed.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: We did do an episode on UFO's UAPs whatever it was,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: the whole thing. You can check out there. It was
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: It is Clean Beaches Week. Don't we wish that was
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: a thing? We could all have.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: I was just at the beach yesterday and I admittedly
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: it was pretty clean, but also I wish more beaches
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: were clean.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: It is Eye Safety Awareness Week.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Very important, go get your eyes checked and protect them
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: from damage. Yes, it is Helen Keller Blind Awareness Week.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: It certainly it's physics to me, maybe both blind and
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: def Have you ever done an episode on hell Keller?
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't think so. And it is kind
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: of interesting because that is a unique case of learning
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: where you have a reduced sort of sensory input. But
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: that would be kind of cool to talk about her more.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we'll do that one day. Yeah, add it
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: to the list.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: It is National Unassisted Home Birth Week.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: It is also Disability Pride Month. That's fun.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look at that.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Happy July. It's important. Very good, very good. All right. Well,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: as I said, we are here to talk about this
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: book that's coming out and interview the authors of that book.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: We get into I think, the key points and take
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: homes or at least what they see as being valuable
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: important work inside of there, and then at the very
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: end we actually invite them to share their recommendations. We'll
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: do ours after we say our goodbyes to them, but
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: they do end by providing some things that they recommend
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: in the very same vein that we would, which is
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: that we recommend things that are typically not related to
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: our topic at hand, not like always, but usually. And
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: so they got to suggest some music and some TV
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: shows and some activities, and there's some good stuff there.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: I think that's it as far as our opening remarks
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: before we jump into this. Is there anything that I'm
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: missing or you'd like to add before we launch into
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: our discussion.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: No, I think we can go ahead.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed this discussion. We'll see you on the other side.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: All right, all right, I would like to welcome our guests.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: We have Jen Ferris, Margaret Solomon, and doctor Maddy Serda.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: So you guys just would like to give you an
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: opportunity to introduce yourselves, talk a little bit about your background,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: and then we'll get talking about this book. I'll start
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: with you Jen, Yeah, Yeah.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: I'll start.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Hi.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: I'm Jen Farris. I am the owner and director of
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: Sprout add Services. We operate in Western Massachusetts. I am
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: also a precision teacher and an adjunct faculty where I
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: teach single subject design at Elms College.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: Margaret, Hi, I'm.
• 7:04
  Speaker 5: Margaret Solomon most noma's Meg.
• 7:08
  Speaker 6: I am the owner and executive clinical director of ABA
• 7:11
  Speaker 6: Across Environments in Colorado Springs, Colorado, where we focus on
• 7:15
  Speaker 6: providing and embedding act throughout the practice and throughout everything
• 7:20
  Speaker 6: that we do, really leaning into a trauma informed lens
• 7:24
  Speaker 6: as well. I'm also a part time faculty for Western
• 7:28
  Speaker 6: Georgia University as well as ELM's College as if that
• 7:32
  Speaker 6: program is continuing, and I'm happy to introduce my dear friend,
• 7:37
  Speaker 6: doctor Maddy Lucy Sierra.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Hi.
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Meg, I appreciate that. So my name is
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: Matti Serta and I am a clinical director and owner
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: of a small agency in Lubbock, Texas, and really have
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: been in this type of work since two thousand and four,
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: against systems disrupting where I could, getting in trouble where
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: I could, and happy to finally be able to have
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: the conversations that I was having for so long and
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: people actually pausing and taking a moment to even listen.
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: So yeah, that's me.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, thank you all for joining us. I agree
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: that I think there's a new audience for this type
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: of discussion and a more receptive on it feels like.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: So yeah, Shane'll turn it.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: Over to you all right, So super excited to have
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: you all here. One of the reasons we want to
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: bring you all on is to talk about your new book.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: We're so excited because you have this new book out.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: People are accessing it, people are stoked about it. We're
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: getting a lot of cool feedback on it. But the
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: book is called Reframe, and so this is a new
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: textbook that's out that people are contacting, they're accessing it,
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: and I think it's a game changer for the field.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: And so I wanted to talk to you all a
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: little bit about, you know, the topic at large and
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: what's going on in the topic and kind of how
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: people are or you know, like the overall topic of
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: compassionate care and behavior analysis. But I do want to
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: talk about the book as well. So I would love
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: for you all to talk about the idea or at
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: least the process for writing a book and writing a
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: book like this, because I feel like it is a
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: labor of love. I feel like it's a passion project.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I know that you all have put blood, sweat and
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: tears into this, So tell us a little bit about
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: the writing process, like how did you get this together?
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: How did you write it? Like what did that look
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: like for everybody?
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: It was a long process, it was several years. So
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: I love to write.
• 9:35
  Speaker 6: I don't know if you'll follow my Instagram across environments,
• 9:40
  Speaker 6: but basically every morning I wake up and I just write.
• 9:45
  Speaker 6: And it might be something that's relevant currently to the field,
• 9:48
  Speaker 6: and it might be something that's just been current to
• 9:51
  Speaker 6: like my environment. Sometimes I all reframe them to be clinical,
• 9:56
  Speaker 6: when in reality they're one hundred percent about like my
• 10:00
  Speaker 6: marriage or my sister, or.
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: My mom, or my kids, sometimes even my dog, And.
• 10:07
  Speaker 6: So I'll just like reframe it. But I still I
• 10:10
  Speaker 6: love to write, and Mattie also loves to write, and
• 10:16
  Speaker 6: so I started writing down just kind of like some
• 10:21
  Speaker 6: ideas of what I was thinking about.
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: And when it came to the part of.
• 10:28
  Speaker 6: Cultural responsiveness right and really what it looks like to
• 10:32
  Speaker 6: be a responsive practitioner, I thought often about many of
• 10:37
  Speaker 6: the works that I'd seen Mattie doing and conversations that
• 10:43
  Speaker 6: she and I had had about what does this look
• 10:45
  Speaker 6: like to be truly cultural responsive right? And I was like, well,
• 10:49
  Speaker 6: I there's no way that I'm going to be able
• 10:52
  Speaker 6: to tell that story the way that Mattie does, and
• 10:56
  Speaker 6: so I was like, can you can.
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: You help me out here?
• 11:01
  Speaker 6: And then it started kind of exploding, Like I would
• 11:03
  Speaker 6: say that like once, like Mati and I got together,
• 11:05
  Speaker 6: we were just kind of like, okay, when it came
• 11:08
  Speaker 6: to like pulling together the pieces and what all we
• 11:11
  Speaker 6: wanted to include, and then it became really overwhelming because
• 11:16
  Speaker 6: then we're like, oh my god, if we go into this,
• 11:18
  Speaker 6: then we're gonna have to do this. That's going to
• 11:19
  Speaker 6: be seventy pages just on that do we want to
• 11:23
  Speaker 6: do this or do we want to do it this
• 11:25
  Speaker 6: way instead? So I think that you'll find that there'll
• 11:28
  Speaker 6: be many additions to come because we still have more
• 11:31
  Speaker 6: that we want to include. But then when it came
• 11:34
  Speaker 6: to the data, that's when I was like, well, I
• 11:36
  Speaker 6: really think that we need to pull in precious precision teaching.
• 11:40
  Speaker 6: And that's where Jen came in, because when we think
• 11:43
  Speaker 6: about ascent based care, precision teachers were at the beginning
• 11:47
  Speaker 6: of that. They were at the forefront of what ascent
• 11:50
  Speaker 6: looks like, right, because you can't build fluency unless the
• 11:53
  Speaker 6: person is sent to the initial right and so that's
• 11:58
  Speaker 6: part of it, and so we're like, all right, well
• 12:00
  Speaker 6: that just made sense.
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: And so Jen was in town.
• 12:05
  Speaker 6: Several years ago and we sat and we had some
• 12:08
  Speaker 6: champagne and we were talking and I was like, hey,
• 12:11
  Speaker 6: Mattie and I are writing a book and we really
• 12:14
  Speaker 6: want you to do the piece on data and you,
• 12:16
  Speaker 6: like I didn't even finish saying it, and Jen was like, yeah,
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: I'm in. But then it still took us over a
• 12:24
  Speaker 6: year after that just to get it somewhere. And finally,
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: like I was talking to a colleague who lives in Lakewood, Colorado,
• 12:31
  Speaker 6: Eli Harwood, and she was at her one of her
• 12:35
  Speaker 6: book launch parties, and she was like, just get it done,
• 12:39
  Speaker 6: Just get it good enough to publish.
• 12:41
  Speaker 5: And then you can do editions. How's that going.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: And Eli, for those that may not know or may
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: probably recognize her through her Instagram handle, is the attachment nerd.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: So she does phenomenal work on attachment theory, which I
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: feel like is a big component that is missing.
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: We talk about it quite a bit.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we do talk about it quite a bit.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: And so then these guys saw so I already knew Meg,
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: and I knew of Matty from her work, and so
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: they attended a talk that I did BABA a few
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: years ago on fluency based instruction and Matty in so
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: if you know Matty in true Maddy's style, raised her
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: hand and asked a very poignant question, to which the
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: entire panel that I was presenting with turned and looked
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: at me to answer said question, which I don't remember
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: exactly what it was, but it was something along the
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: lines of are you pushing learners to just respond faster?
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: And I was like, well, and you know, apparently very
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: eloquently answered this question about fluency based in true and
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: why we use fluency based instruction, and as you're chuckling.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: As a precision teacher, we get these questions all the time.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: And apparently I got the job from my answer because
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: the question about joining the book came quite shortly after that,
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: and I became the reframe data and research nerd. I
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: think then in there bringing the kind of data elements
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: into it, and.
• 14:24
  Speaker 6: I would say too, like our writing process was also
• 14:28
  Speaker 6: unique too, yes, and the way that we write is
• 14:31
  Speaker 6: all very different and unique. So we didn't want it
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: to be a book where it's like, Okay, this person
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: writes this chapter and this person writes this chapter, you
• 14:40
  Speaker 6: hear our voices embedded throughout, and we really wanted that
• 14:44
  Speaker 6: to be something that was different than what most people
• 14:49
  Speaker 6: were currently used to, right.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I think that's like so valuable, And that's something that
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: is really cool about the book is like I've seen
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: where you know, you have like a textbook that is
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: a collection of chapters and not necessarily like a book
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: that is co written. Yeah, you know, I feel like
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: it's cool to see that it is co written and whatnot.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: So one of my favorite things about the book, and
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: I think this is really important because I think this
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: goes back to like the disruptor style too, is that
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: there's a whole portion of this that talks about the
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: history of behavior analysis and why that is so important.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: And I guess maybe you know, we're we're in a
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: space now where behavior analysis is. I don't think it's
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: any different than any other time, but it does feel
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: a little bit more turbulent than it has, at least
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: since I've entered the field. I've only been in the
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: field since about twenty ten, So if it was more
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: turbulent back then, I can't say, but I would say
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: right now it feels a little bit turbulent.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: It wasn't. I got into the field two thousand and three,
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: it wasn't. It's more turbulent now than I have ever
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: I have ever seen it. Yeah, yeah, we're in a
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: generation of disruptors, right like by nature, this is this
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: is who we are, This is how we all came
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: into the world.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: You know, I.
• 15:53
  Speaker 6: Guarantee you the majority of us at right now have
• 15:56
  Speaker 6: formed or been on some sort of like protest.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: I was in my firstly that was six, I wanting
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: in DC holding hands as we saying we are the world,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: right like, and I'm not alone in that, right. This
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: is the generation that we were kind of brought up with. Yeah, sorry,
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: you were asking a question. No, no, no, it's beautiful
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: and I think we disrupted it weird.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Well, this is your this is your platform, right like,
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: I want to make sure you've got that. So like,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: as disruptors, I think one of the things that does
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: come up is history, and I think that you know,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: it's like one thing to kind of say today, this
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: is what we need today.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: But why did you feel like the book needed.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: That, like that linky section on history to kind of
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: talk about where behavior analysis was at and who were
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: the influencers like why why did that feel necessary for
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: the book? Just so folks know, can I take this one?
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm like, I think it's important because anybody
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: who is a student of behavior analysis should care about
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: our history and our rich history. I don't know if
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: this is exclusive to the precision teaching community, but I
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: find it most when I am in the precision teaching community.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: We are very, very familiar with our history. We talk
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: about our history, we talk where it comes from, we
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: are embodied in our history. We discuss it on a
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: regular basis. We are obsessed with it. Let's be real.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: That's fair, Okay, Okay, yes, I don't find that in
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: lots of other spaces. And I think that that actually
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: is doing our field of disservice. And the reason for
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: that is it's becoming less scientific. And I know that
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: I sound like the you know, my friend Matt says, like,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: you know, the muppets that are like up in the
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: balcony like at you know, but like, I think that
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: we are losing some of the science and what we
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: do because we're not talking enough about the history. And
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: so if you look at our history, everything that we're
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: talking about has in fact been there this whole time.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: Nobody is actually talking about anything that wasn't there. A
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: lot of what we quote is Skinner is Lindsley because
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: Cooper No is Cooper right? Who was quote who was
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: a student of Lindsley, who was a student of Skinner? Right,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: who was a student of Don Behar, who was right?
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: Like social validity is mont Wolf, Like we're not.
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: Talk about Lovos and why it's important that we talk
• 18:27
  Speaker 6: about Yeah.
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: Our history.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: If we don't talk about our history and we're not
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: clear about it and we don't understand it, a lot
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: of people give us a lot of flack, right, and
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: they should, right, So like let's own that, but like
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: you have to understand why we get the flack that
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: we get. And if you're not clear about our history,
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: you can't be clear about where to go, right.
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: And I feel like too, everybody's always like where's the
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: research for that?
• 18:55
  Speaker 6: We're literally laying it out for you exactly, and this
• 18:59
  Speaker 6: isn't noo that we're doing. It's literally just reframing, hence
• 19:04
  Speaker 6: the name, what we have been doing in a way
• 19:07
  Speaker 6: that is, in our opinion and clinical expertise, more scientific.
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: We rebust robust than much of what I see that's.
• 19:17
  Speaker 6: Diluted in clinics today because you see right now as
• 19:21
  Speaker 6: an oversimplification of the application of our science, and that's
• 19:25
  Speaker 6: dangerous and one hundred percent causing harm.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: And often people just don't want to read it right,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: and so like it's not that the research isn't there because.
• 19:35
  Speaker 6: It makes them feel something jen and it's behavior analysts
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: we can't feel Yeah, that's not relevant.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and I think too.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: In our course work. Unfortunately, the practice of self reflection
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: is beat out of us. We talk so much about
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: all of these stimuli and you know, antecedent variables in
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: an environment, but the most important, or probably the most
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: impactful one when we walk into a space with a
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: learner is us and our behavior and how we're influencing.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: And so it goes.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: It's not surprising that as a field we are not
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: comfortable looking at history through a self reflective lens, because
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: what it forces us to come to terms with, or
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: come face to face with, is that many of us
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: have unfortunately not been able to separate the work that
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: we do from the person that we are. And so
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: anything that becomes a critique, whether done in love or
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: whether done because we want to see our field do
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: better becomes an attack on us personally. We're not able
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: to just sit and look at this subjectively. Unfortunately, I
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: don't know. I just see sometimes it's almost like the
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: coursework process and what we're training up future behavior analysts
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: to become almost cult like, you know, don't critically think
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: this is how it is, like, just follow steps A
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: through Z. Don't think about anything outside of the box.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: Everything fits in this nice, neat little box. And that's
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: not accurate. So we talk a lot about that in
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: the book Self Reflection. If you don't know who you
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: are in and out of this field and this work, or.
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: If you identify only as a behavior analyst, you're.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Going to get lost. You're going to become very lost.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: You're going to become very burned out, and you're not
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: even going to know why you get up every single
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: day and walk into whatever clinic doors you're walking into.
• 21:39
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think that's true because we talk a
• 21:42
  Speaker 6: lot about what many in our field to call mentalistic, right,
• 21:47
  Speaker 6: because if we talk a lot about inner behavior, but
• 21:50
  Speaker 6: what Mani's talking about, this type of self reflection, the
• 21:53
  Speaker 6: self awareness is scinarian. It's not new and so that
• 21:59
  Speaker 6: was what Jen's hope was with really pulling in all
• 22:02
  Speaker 6: all this research because the way Maudie and I write like,
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: I'm like, literally, this is what I had to go
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: through with the book. This is what took me the
• 22:09
  Speaker 6: longest is I would say, I know that I read
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: that somewhere. I'm going to put in parentheses site to
• 22:16
  Speaker 6: remind myself to find the citation for this one.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: And I was like, I got it, it's here, because
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: that's the way my brain works. And I think what
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: ends up happening, right, is what happens is we passed
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: down more instead of passing down research, right, And so
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: what happens is like I had one of my clinicians
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: recently was like, well, because I always did it that way,
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: and I was like, please don't ever say that to
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: me ever, because that should never be. And again, I
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: don't know some of this is my training is like
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: the rat is always right, the learner is always right.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: It should never be I always did this because I
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: did it this way before. That's just not how science lives.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: That's not how science works, right, And so like we
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: talk about dogma, we talk about it's lore right, like
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: it is we do it this way because this is
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: how the person before us taught it. That's not science, right,
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: And if we want to be scientists and we want
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: to have the science of behavior analysis, that's not what
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: it is. And so I think part of it is that,
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: like when we see this influx, I know, for me,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: this is what it is. I believe in the science
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: of behavior analysis. I am a scientist of behavior. I
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: think of myself as a scientist practitioner, and I am
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: horrified when I see sometimes the things that are presented.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: You know, we have this influx of people coming into
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: our field that are very well intended and very smart
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: and are studying lare and not science on Hot Troson,
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: and it worries me that we're moving away from a
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: science into something that I don't believe is what where
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: we came from, right, And so the way to do
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: that is to remind people, hey, you know, it's not
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: just about that guy and this guy. It's also about
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: this girl and this girl, right, and these people who
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: did this research that is is rich, that the lore
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: that you're hearing is based off of research, and that's
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: how we were taught to do things. And anyway I've
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: been on the soapbox. But I think the spirit of
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: that is like, if you want to call our field
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: of science, then you better act like a scientist, and
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: scientists operate from research and data and not assumptions and lore.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: That's not how it works.
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: I think we also have to remember what LeBlanc said
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: in her I think twenty twelve or twenty thirteen article
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: where she reminds us we are not the only discipline
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: with proven research, and we have got to address the
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: egocentrism of you know, the universe revolves around ABA, and
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: there are other disciplines in healthcare, nursing, even leadership, you know,
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: OBM policy, where there are light years ahead of us
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: on some of these things that people are saying, Oh,
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: this is this is radical, this is new, this is
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: not proven, this is not evidence based.
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: Well, I think we have practition.
• 25:24
  Speaker 6: We have friends and colleagues f alleagues right who are
• 25:26
  Speaker 6: facing those same things, like Camil Kolu, and we reference
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: her quite a bit because she pulls from the medical
• 25:33
  Speaker 6: community and again in this field that's very much more
• 25:37
  Speaker 6: well established than ABA, and she still gets.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: Fine for that. We're forgotten. Yes, you know, there this
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: whole like sudden wave of trauma and formed compassionate. I'm
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: seeing all of these names being thrown out as like, oh,
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: this person is like leading the charge or they've been
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: the first person. I'm like, absolutely not. Camille was doing
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: this way anyway.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: I will not let her name be forgotten because she's
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: a woman, and.
• 26:11
  Speaker 6: I think that's why we wanted to make sure that
• 26:13
  Speaker 6: we put her name first in the book when we
• 26:17
  Speaker 6: started writing about the trauma piece of our self evaluation
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: and reflection.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think that's an excellent point. I love that
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: in this I think is going to lead to the
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: next question. Is you know, we're talking about being a
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: science forward practice. We're talking about effectively not just using
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: data and making decisions, but also pragmatism, right like making
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: it effective and the benefit for humanity and making it
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: socially valid. And these are conversations that I remember having
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: early in my behavior analytic work and early in my programs.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: And you know, I want to go back to a
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: comment that was made that the you know, any criticism
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: of the field feels like a personal attack, right There
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: are folk out there who are skeptical of criticisms, and
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I want to say not skeptical of our of emerging
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: science or skeptical of you know, compassionate carrying and that,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: but skeptical of criticisms because they feel like they're the
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: quote unquote old school behavior analysts, which Jen, kind of
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: what you just said was like, we're going back to
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: skinarian work. We're going back to stuff that has been
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: done for fifty sixty seventy years at this point, right,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: So what do you say to those folks that are
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: feeling one offended that anybody would criticize something that they love,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: but two that are you know, I would say maybe like,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: you know, waving the flag that they're doing behavior analysis
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: and they're missing the mark across all of our history. Like,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: what would you say to those folks, those people that
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: are skeptical of kind of the approach that you're saying,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: which is, hey, we're scientists, we're behavior analysts. We've got
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: to do better, but we've been doing this too, and
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: we should probably look at what we've been doing for
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: all these years.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: I think we have to apply our own principles right
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: that are in the book, Like are they in a
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: position to receive any kind of conversation? Because if they
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: are nowhere in a position to sit with that discomfort
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: that can go outside of our you know, scope of competence.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: You know, this person may have unresolved attachment wounds, they
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: may have so much of a learning history that has
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: led them to this point of any kind of feedback,
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: any kind of correction, is a personal attack. And what's
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: that phrase? You know, accountability can feel like an attack
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: when one is not ready to hear. And so I'm
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: more probably now as I'm getting older, in my like
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: silly and Murphy phase where I'm just gonna keep my
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: mouth shut and my face is going to do the
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: talking with a raised eyebrow, with a Okay, maybe in
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: my earlier years I would have been really like trying
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: to hammer in. They're like, no, we got to talk
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: about this, like you got to look at this, you
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: got to research this. But if people aren't ready, you know,
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: that's one of the most compassionate things that we can
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: do is not engage in those same behaviors of like
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: I'm going to force this upon you and you're going
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: to sit and think about this because we can't. We
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: can't control someone's thoughts and self reflective behaviors. All I
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: can do is control myself and my response and validate
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: that what they're feeling is valid and things can be
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: true but not right if that makes sense. And so
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: when people come with those kind of rebuttals, it really
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: depends on the way they frame that interaction and conversation.
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: That's going to tell me, are they in a position
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: for this to be a reciprocal conversation same thing as
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: like in that therapeutic you know, establishing of that therapeutic
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: rapport and that real relationship with the learner. Are they
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: in a position or this can become a reciprocal conversation
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: and engagement and interaction, because if not, then I'm just
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: going to do what we normally do in a clinic
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: setting and just be there and wait for that moment
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: when they're like, I need help. This is still not
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: working out for me. Why is this okay? Well, we
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: do have to go through that hard history and those
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: things that make you uncomfortable. Are you ready? Have I
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: built trust enough with you that you're willing to walk
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: down that journey to look at what our field has done?
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: Not you, but by proxy you do practice some of
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: these things because we're taught. So it's we can't rush
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: this process unfortunately, and.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I think it's about sharing our own experiences. I think
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: it's like telling somebody else, like I did do that,
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: you know, I because that's how I was taught. Because
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: when I got into the field, everybody did that. That
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: is what people did. And I made a conscious effort
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: to myself and to the field that I didn't want
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: to do that anymore. And like, was there any mal
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: intent there? No? Does that mean that harm may have
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: been caused? Yes, And that's allowed to be true. People
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: don't go into situations and say, hey, I'm going to
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: cause harm today, not most people. Right, there's a quote
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: that doctor Hanley says that our field always came from
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: a place of compassion. We were always compassionate in our intention,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean we were compassionate in our approach, right,
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: And so we all got into this because we wanted
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: to do good work and help people and so a lot,
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: you know, I think the hard part is that like
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: we do have a younger generation that's like you never
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: should have done that. You weren't You weren't there, bro
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: Like we all like we were there, and that's how
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: our entire field did things. Everybody did it, and everyone
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: did things different. I didn't learn a low boss model.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: I wasn't smacking a table and yelling no, no at somebody.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: I didn't learn how to do that. But there's other
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: things I learned how to do right, And like you
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: get to decide today what you want to do even
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: twenty minutes from now. We're all people who get to
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: decide what we do or don't want to do. But
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: we can't, like Maddy said, for somebody else to decide
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: that for themselves. What we can share. I know what
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: I learn and I often share in our workshops, A
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: very difficult journey with a learner. And you know why
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: we did it. It Actually it worked the real talk,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: it worked, it was efficacious, the data did support it.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: It did work. And was it the right thing to do?
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: We thought so at the time. It does. Science teach
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: us different things when we're willing to look at it. Yeah,
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: but you got to be willing to look at it
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: and just I do you want to do something different?
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: But you can't make that decision for somebody else. Only
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: they can do that, And everyone gets to a different
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: place right at a different time.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: I was on.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: These guys were there way before I was, And I'm
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: fine to say that they actually engage in things in
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: practice now that I don't always do.
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I would say that's true. It is true,
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: and I'd say and I.
• 33:24
  Speaker 6: But I think too, for my journey to get to
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: where I was was different and it was more complicated.
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: And what Moni's saying is that this learning history that
• 33:36
  Speaker 6: we all carry with us is why we are ready
• 33:41
  Speaker 6: to change our practices or why we are not ready
• 33:44
  Speaker 6: to change our practices. Right, And when we look at
• 33:47
  Speaker 6: this from again an act perspective, there's an inner behavior there.
• 33:53
  Speaker 6: So this inner behavior is very much something that we
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: are either wanting to change with values and committed action,
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: or that we want to avoid. And so many times
• 34:09
  Speaker 6: and I've been here, right, which is I want to
• 34:12
  Speaker 6: avoid this feeling of discomfort and the best way to
• 34:15
  Speaker 6: do that is to shut it all off and run
• 34:17
  Speaker 6: through the motions of a high quality, fidelity session where
• 34:21
  Speaker 6: I might go through a two hours long extinction verst
• 34:24
  Speaker 6: and I'm not going to care because I'm completely disassociated.
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: And for many people, for them, that looks compassionate. And
• 34:38
  Speaker 6: I think for me, when I became a mom and
• 34:41
  Speaker 6: I was dealing with my son, and I was like, oh,
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: my god, if anybody did this to my child, Mama
• 34:50
  Speaker 6: Bear would come running up and clawing anybody's eyeballs out.
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: And for I remember too like I was a really
• 35:00
  Speaker 6: going through an extinction verse with my own child, and
• 35:03
  Speaker 6: my husband was like, do you feel.
• 35:05
  Speaker 5: Anything right now? And I was like, oh, my god, yeah,
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: what am I doing? And here I am.
• 35:15
  Speaker 6: Assuming that I'm not causing harm because my intent is
• 35:19
  Speaker 6: unharmful and I'm thinking, no, this is temporary and that
• 35:24
  Speaker 6: it's going to get us to meet and ends that's
• 35:27
  Speaker 6: going to eventually contact reinforcement for him, that's greater than
• 35:30
  Speaker 6: this current moment. And the reality is is that that's
• 35:33
  Speaker 6: one hundred percent false, and that's the folk floor that
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: we've been spreading.
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: And that's why I was like, I can't do this anymore.
• 35:43
  Speaker 6: If I can't do this with my own child, there's
• 35:45
  Speaker 6: no way that I am going to recommend that another
• 35:49
  Speaker 6: caregiver put themselves through this and their.
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: Child through this. Yeah, And that was the reality of
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: it for me.
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: I also feel like this is where that cultural responsiveness
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: piece is so important when we talk about the history,
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: because if you've ever attended some of my workshops, I
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: will push back against Skinner and Skinnerian principles as well.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: And Jen brought up a great point that we started
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: from compassion, But as an individual who is a marginalized individual,
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: I push back on that because I think we also
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: have to redefine what compassion means, because you're not just
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: pulling in your learning history, You're pulling in privilege. Depending
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: on what group you are a part of, you're pulling
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: in social power. And so unfortunately, even looking back through
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: history to the origins of our field, some of us
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: might have called it compassion, But as a marginalized person,
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: I would push back and say, was it compassion or
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: was it privempathy? And for those who aren't familiar with
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: doctor Kenneth Hardy, I highly recommend that you look into
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: his research and his works because privempathy is essentially empathy
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: of the privileged, and empathy of the privileged is a
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: way that we see individuals who are in a higher
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: social power demonstrate and I'm air quoting empathy by saying
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: by comparing their struggles with the struggles of someone in
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: a marginalized group. And so that is not compassion because
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: what ends up happening is through this mentality or mindset
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: of privempathy. They engage in these interventions or these practices
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: where it's like, I'm going to make you more like me, yes,
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: so that you can contact the reinforcement that I contact.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: And it's not accurate because that person will never contact
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: that level of reinforcement because they're not part of a
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: privileged group. And then another thing that ends up happening
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: is this missionary mindset, right especially knowing who predominantly is
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: in the field, and this missionary mindset ends up turning
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: into sort of this like therapeutic colonization of you.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Look at you.
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: You're broken, you are you are, you're struggling, you you
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: have all of these deficits. Not only am I going
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: to help you, but I'm going to help you come
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: to know our you know, Lord and savior aba uh
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: you know. And so it's this very missionary mindset, and
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: but we do it under the guise of compassion air
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: quotes and so compassion without cultural responsiveness is going to
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: be And I'm going to be the first person, y'all
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: I think the same old Oh. I know it's rare
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: to come out of my mouth, but unless I'm only
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: with Megan Finn and so I think that this is
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: another reason it's so important to look at our history
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: not only from a compassionate lens, but from a culturally
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: responsive lens, because many individuals in the field, because we
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: know what the demographics are, there is a veil that
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: influences and shades that perception and that perspective of what
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: we're doing in this field. And so if we don't
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: have a clear definition of compassion, we still risk engaging
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: in harmful behaviors. And remember it's impact versus intent. Sure,
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: the intent in that person's own mind is I'm doing
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: a good work, But the person on the receiving end
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: is like, no, you're not. You know, you're driving through
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: my village that is starving, and it's a you know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: missus Baird's bard truck, you know, bread truck, but all
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: that's inside of it is a billion Cooper books. You know,
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: you're not really feeding me or meeting the need that
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: I have. You're trying to just turn me into something
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: that is more comfortable for you.
• 40:04
  Speaker 5: That's it.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's save your behavior, right, I mean, that's at
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, that's what it is. And
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you brought this up because I
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: think that like having spent time in the book and
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: reviewing it and look and you know, reading it and
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: participating in it and stuff. You know, one of the
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: things I think that you all do such a great
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: job of is pressing people to think about this stuff
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: to like pressing people to self reflect, pressing people to
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: really dive into their own inner behavior and really think
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: about like, oh, is this really what you think it is?
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: Or is this you stepping in from you know, a
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: privileged group to make these decisions, or you know, any
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: of those things. So I guess maybe a question I
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: would have for you all, and I think kind of
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: like to piggyback on this this particular topic, is you know,
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: you all have this perspective that is I think valid
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: and important in groundbreaking. And I don't want to say
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: groundreaking because I don't think I think it is groundbreaking,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: but I don't think it's like it shouldn't be new
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: to the field. But for some folks it is, right.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: And so now you're going to have the contingent of
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: behavior analysts that go ooh compassionate, aba ooh, I love
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: this quote unquote buzzword. And now you're gonna have people
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: that you know are going to want to grab the
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: book and go do the thing that you just described,
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Like they're going to go and say, like I'm going
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: to drive through the village, I'm gonna do the savior
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: behavior thing. I'm gonna I'm gonna be compassionate, and they're
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: maybe missing the mark. So how would you recommend folks,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: And it's may be not an easy question to answer,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: how would you recommend folks taking the book and go
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: and preventing that from happening, preventing the missionary mindset from
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: happening by you know, like thinking that they're going to
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: take this book and they're going to go do all
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: the good work, you know, and kind of like you know,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: preach the gospel of behavior analysis through it. Not that
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: and that's just like that's not you know, that's it's
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: one of those things like when you have a book
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: and it gets into the world, like it's it's hard
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: to control what happens from there, right, But like that's
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: I guess maybe what what would your recommendations be for
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: folks that are contacting it for the first time and going,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: I love compassionate ABA, and you know, it's the dunning
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: Kruger where they think they know a little bit and
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: they don't know anything. So like, what would you recommend
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: for folks on that level?
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: I would say that, at least for me, I can't
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: speak for our other two authors. The purpose of this
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: book is laid out in the first chapter, which is
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: self reflection, right, and so our hope is that we
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: are planting seeds and people will walk away with this
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: book with more questions. Yes, not necessarily more. I know
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: what to do, but a I have no idea what
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: to do, and that's okay. And I now know what
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: I can start with and develop something that I also
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: think is really missing from our field, and that's critical
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: thinking skills.
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: I was hoping you would say it. I mean, we've
• 43:02
  Speaker 5: stripped out.
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: Who we are as human beings, like the ability to
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: think critically and make a decision that may not it
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: may go against the current of what the lure has
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: told us. You know, we we have stripped compassion, we
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: have stripped patients, we have stripped kindness and these mentalistic things.
• 43:29
  Speaker 6: We've created a totally different culture and removed any sort
• 43:35
  Speaker 6: of individual culture from the community.
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, And we were just talking about this, you know,
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: based on, you know, interacting with students in current coursework.
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: We see this in the supervision world. I suffered through
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: the trenches and I had a horrible supervisor, and they
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: never did these things for me. And instead of saying
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: I don't want that for you, I'm going to do
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: this differently, we just perpetuate this generational trauma onto that
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: next round of students of you got to go through
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: these trenches too, You're gonna have to suffer too, if
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: I had to suffer, And as a parent, I just
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: think about if people would stop for a second and
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: look back at their own childhood and some of the
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: things they experienced with their parents or their caregivers and
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: now becoming parents saying I don't want to repeat that.
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: I want to become the parent that I needed as
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: a child, not the one that I had. Necessarily, it's
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: the same thing. And so why are we so eager
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: to perpetuate generational trauma and harm? Yeah, I wouldn't do
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: it or think it was perfectly acceptable to do in
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: any other context of our lives, but yet in the
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: field of ABA it's like a badge of honor.
• 45:03
  Speaker 5: Oh my god, the war wounds so gross.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, warrior culture.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 45:08
  Speaker 6: I would say one of the things that we do
• 45:09
  Speaker 6: in our agency is that not only does everybody do
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: the self assessment and creative their own self bit as
• 45:16
  Speaker 6: recommended throughout the book, but we very much talk about
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: how this is a practice and you are going to
• 45:22
  Speaker 6: make mistakes, and you are going to fall off the wagon,
• 45:26
  Speaker 6: and you're going to need to find a safe place
• 45:29
  Speaker 6: to come back to. And for us, that's the practice
• 45:32
  Speaker 6: of living within your values and acting within your values right,
• 45:36
  Speaker 6: and recognizing that sometimes that's not easy.
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: Sometimes you're going to experience conflict.
• 45:42
  Speaker 6: Sometimes it's going to be discomforting, right, But then being
• 45:48
  Speaker 6: able to reach out to somebody who is a supportive
• 45:51
  Speaker 6: supervisor or person or peer to lean into to help
• 45:56
  Speaker 6: carry you through that is really powerful something that we
• 46:00
  Speaker 6: have set up in our agency and we're really proud
• 46:02
  Speaker 6: of doing. But I would also say that nobody in
• 46:05
  Speaker 6: our book is then or nobody in our book, nobody
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: on our agency is looking at the book and then saying, Okay,
• 46:11
  Speaker 6: now I'm going to write a program for a learner
• 46:13
  Speaker 6: based on what I've read from this book, because that's
• 46:16
  Speaker 6: not how the book is designed.
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: The book is very much designed to be person centered.
• 46:21
  Speaker 6: And while that man we look at that as usually
• 46:24
  Speaker 6: the learners and their families and the stakeholders. I'm talking
• 46:27
  Speaker 6: about you. You're the person at the center of behavior change.
• 46:33
  Speaker 6: So if you're wondering where it needs to start and
• 46:37
  Speaker 6: how you're going to prevent this pillaging of the system,
• 46:42
  Speaker 6: right as you like invade communities and tell them you're
• 46:46
  Speaker 6: supposed to do it this way and not that way,
• 46:48
  Speaker 6: and you're wrong and you should do this, and why
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: aren't you doing man training with your child because that's
• 46:54
  Speaker 6: not normal. And so it's really important that we recognize that,
• 46:58
  Speaker 6: like everybody, when we look at the history of our science, right,
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: going back to that, we have animals that we were
• 47:04
  Speaker 6: working with initially.
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: Right, those animals didn't come from families.
• 47:08
  Speaker 6: They were raised and researched farms basically, Right, So we're talking,
• 47:14
  Speaker 6: we're trying to compare some of those very simple things
• 47:17
  Speaker 6: to people who carry generational trauma that's proven fact, who
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: have thoughts and feelings that's a proven fact, who have
• 47:30
  Speaker 6: their own cultures, that's a proven fact. And then we're
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: trying to oversimplify it. So what we're trying to say
• 47:37
  Speaker 6: with the book is stop trying to do that, and
• 47:40
  Speaker 6: please turn the mirror towards yourself first. And if it
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: doesn't feel comfortable for you to change your own behavior,
• 47:48
  Speaker 6: it's not going to not cause harm if you're trying
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: to change somebody else's behavior.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's reasonable.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: I just want to add, like I think that person.
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: I feel like I got great supervision. I have like
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: a cohort of mentors that I can call like literally
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: right now, like amazing people and be like, hey, like
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: what should I do about this? And they'll be like,
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: you should try this, and you should try this right,
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: And I feel a responsibility to pass that along, you know,
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Like I feel like I have this working. I am
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: a resource junkie, and so like in the spirit of
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: like stand on my shoulders, right, like that that's our job,
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: right when you become the age of behavior analysts that
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: we all are here, right, it's our job to pass
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: that along. And I think some of that is the
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: spirit of this book is like we have done this work.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: We have these tools that a lot of other people don't.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: And that first one is reflective practice, Like you cannot
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: go into somebody's home, you cannot implement behavior change protocol
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: without you know, checking yourself. And so the book is
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: designed to start exactly right there. So like, you can't
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: play the compassionate card unless you actually have done this,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: because you can't go through the book. I mean you could,
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: but you would actually skip the chapters like we're saying
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: you don't. We're not going to give that to you
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: unless you do this. And so like you can say
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: that you're going to do this because you've elected to
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: skip those chapters in our book. But like from our perspective,
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: that starts page one with self reflective practice. It's like,
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: first you have to look and recognize your own biases.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: How are you going to check those at the door
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: so that you can show up with those over here
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: acknowledging that you have them because you do everybody does,
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: and engage in that. That is how people engage in
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: that in all areas of life. You have to recognize
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: your own racist, ablest practice to be able to really
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: do that. And so the book is designed to do
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: essentially that and say, we have all these years of experience,
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: we want to share that with you, and here's here's
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: how you can can get started.
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: Chapter one is the first aid kit. It's into the tools,
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: because the rest of the chapter is going to surface
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: wounds for everyone, and some of these many of these
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: wounds are absessed. We've slapped enough band aids on it.
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: You know, the skin has healed over, the skin has
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: hardened calloused. And as you go through the rest of
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: this book, if you skip the first aid chapter, you
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: are going to be dealing with oozing infected absess wounds
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: and not know what to do with them. You'll misplace then, yeah, yeah,
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: or you will think that you just need to leave completely,
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: or that you've been you know, you are not a
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: fit for this field, or that you you know, are
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: not going to be able to save a bok of people.
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: And really what we're hoping is that you'll just save yourself.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, or you're going to cause harm, right, The reality
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: is is like, or you are going to cause harm
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: on somebody else because you're going to show up with
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: your wheel barrow full of manure and dump it on
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: somebody else, right, Like that's the other part of it,
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: is like there is you, right and who you want
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: to be in behavior analysis, but that's where that impact
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: comes into play too, right, Like if you don't dump
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: that wheelbarrow out before you show up at somebody's front door,
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: that wheelbarrow gets dumped out, and like, that's what we're you.
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: Should use that manure to tend your own garden.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, the harm will be caused, right and so
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: unintentionally because you haven't tended to your own garden, darling.
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: And I think it's important too that people that readers
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: understand too, like you're not going to be perfect after
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: this book.
• 51:59
  Speaker 5: Far from it, my god know, and I hope nobody
• 52:02
  Speaker 5: thinks that we think that we're perfect.
• 52:04
  Speaker 6: You actually might be worse off initially because I need
• 52:07
  Speaker 6: everybody know that I've yet I'm a yeller.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: That's really good respective practice, Meg, Yes.
• 52:21
  Speaker 6: And I try every day and I'm still in therapy
• 52:24
  Speaker 6: because I have to be otherwise I will implode.
• 52:28
  Speaker 5: We aren't perfect practice. Absolutely.
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: The whole point of this book is so that when
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: you do cause harm and wounds, you know how to
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: repair the rupture, not slap a band aid on top
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: of it with the dirt digging into it and the
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: you know, the germs just being shoved down into it
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: to then abscess. We're hoping that people will recognize heal
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: their own old infected wounds and then have a first
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: daid care it because you are going to still wound
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: and harm, that's just human nature. But you then now
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: have a repair kit of how do you heal ruptures
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: with your colleagues, with yourself, with your learners and families.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: How does that happen? And so that I think that's
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: one of the things that maybe we haven't like said
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: out loud very often, but Chapter one is where you
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: learn how to heal those ruptures, not the person, the
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: rupture that we created. And that's something that I even
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: tell my own children. People are going to hurt you
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: and wound you. It's just up to you to decide
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: who is worth receiving those wounds from.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: And I think one thing that has resonated with me
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: in having this discussion is going back to like taking
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: that and tying that back to something that Jen said earlier,
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: which was like, we're too right. And one of the
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: things I think about constantly is best available evidence. Right
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: when we practice, we practice with best available evidence, and
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: what better evidence of practice and evidence of our like
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: of our work. Then you know this is something that
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: we have done, This is something that somebody has reported
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: to us, This is a harm that may we may
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: have caused. This is evidence and maybe an onus for
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: us to change behavior, right, Like, hey, this this was
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: not a good situation. This was a bad situation to
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: be in. So here's us taking that evidence along with
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: best available scientific evidence and going forward to improve. And
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: I feel like I love that. This is like kind
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: of the point of the whole discussion was really going,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: this is a practice, This is not perfection. This is
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: not a recipe book to solve everything, right, which I
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: bring that up because there's so many you know, comments
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: and quotes from like the chef's metaphors and whatnot, And
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: I think that's like it's such a great thing to
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: kind of go back and go, this is not You're
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: not going to take this and go I'm an expert.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Now you're gonna take this and go, oh now I
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: know where to start with new evidence to go forward
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: and change and new paths to alter my own behavior
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: as a practitioner.
• 55:06
  Speaker 6: And that was kind of the hope behind the case
• 55:08
  Speaker 6: studies that we put in the book, which was to
• 55:10
  Speaker 6: show like, oh, here are these mistakes that were all
• 55:13
  Speaker 6: really common, like most of us have made these mistakes, right,
• 55:17
  Speaker 6: That's why I put them in there. These are mistakes
• 55:19
  Speaker 6: that I've made, right, and now after this reflection, here's
• 55:25
  Speaker 6: how I can change my own behavior, which then changes
• 55:28
  Speaker 6: the outcomes.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:30
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean my grandfather, anytime that any of us
• 55:32
  Speaker 6: have made a mistake, he was of a baby that
• 55:34
  Speaker 6: you learned something. And that's the whole point of this
• 55:39
  Speaker 6: book is did you learn something fantastic? Our hope was
• 55:46
  Speaker 6: to really show it's okay to make these mistakes.
• 55:50
  Speaker 5: This is not an errorless learning book. This is very
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: much a book of you will make mistakes.
• 55:57
  Speaker 6: You have made mistakes. Now let's change. Let's change your
• 56:02
  Speaker 6: behavior from what you have learned.
• 56:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, even just modeling, discussing and admitting mistakes. Because our
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: field is notorious for punishing even you know, admitting that
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: we get it wrong or that we make mistakes, we're
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: very punishing to that. There's like this air of elitism
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: that you know, you're a good becoming when you don't
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: make any mistakes, And I'm just kind.
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: Of like, you're not.
• 56:32
  Speaker 5: You're a human.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: How do you learn?
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: Isn't isn't that part of.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: The style American culture is kind of punished as admitting
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: to making mistakes. Definitely right now, But also I think historically.
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and our hope is like to model that this
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: is not a you know, when you make a mistake,
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: it doesn't always have to be a punishing consequence of
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: like told, just so you know.
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: We're out, Yeah, you're out.
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: You're you're a crappy.
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: Behavior your analysts, as opposed to like, ooh, let's sit
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: with that mistake, like talk, talk me through it, walk
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: me through it, you know, because there's so much context
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: that goes into why we make those decisions and why
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: maybe at that moment in time it felt like the
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: right decision. But how do we teach people to think
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: critically and to widen their scope of looking at everything
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: before making a decision if we aren't comfortable walking through that.
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: So I love that Megan Chin put in these case studies,
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: and we're just very raw and authentic about that, because
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: we've got to become honest and raw and authentic as
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: a field, because we're doing a lot of pretend play.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: You know, I feel like we're playing BCBA and playing
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: research practitioner or playing researcher or you know, journal article writer.
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: We're playing house as opposed to like, no, this is
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: this is the real deal, Like let's talk about how
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: really nobody knows what the f they're doing. We're just
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: doing the best that we can.
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: Because we don't share in our behaviors enough.
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: Well, we also don't share our data enough, like to
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: be so honest, is like too many conversations happen in
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: the absence of looking at data, and so like chart
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: share for reals, these you guys, you know that a
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: lot of chart shares happen where we're like not show sure,
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: like when we do them in front of everybody, everyone's like,
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: let's all look at our perfect charts, but like a
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: lot yes, yeah, your parent is very happy over here,
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: but like seriously, so how many clinicians will be like
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: what should I do? And I'm like, well, let's start
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: by looking at the data. Every supervision, it's like, pull
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: up the data, let's look at it. That should be
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: your starting place for like what what we're doing right,
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: and like having that be the place, and people are
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable with that, And so what happens is the program
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: and the behavior analysts get paired as like the same thing,
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: but like a program can fail and it doesn't mean
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: that the behavior analyst is a failure, and like it
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: gets intertwined as like the same thing, and it really
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: like doesn't doesn't wonder on someone's self esteem. I don't
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: know how we fix that, but I'm just putting this
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: out to the world to whoever is like listening, that
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: like those things aren't the same, y'all, Like it does,
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: it's not the same. And if you're following the data,
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: you're a really good behavior analyst. And so like programs
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: fail all the time, researchers programs fail, My programs fail,
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: makes programs fail, Madi's programs fail, everybody's programs fail, and
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: that it doesn't mean that you're bad. Sorry, I brought
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: us to church there.
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: But you know no, I think we can thank journal
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: publications too.
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna not say anything because people'll never get to
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: the next question I say anything about that talking.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: I'm just going to say, for those that are listening,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: look at journal publications for failures. Yeah, if the data
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: doesn't show or back how wonderful ABA is through success,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: we can't really publish that. Sorry.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: So, I mean, they don't like to publish my data.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 5: So because you can't read your data.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: And they don't want to admit it.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: Perfect, we actually just publish an episode recently about pre
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: registering studies as a way to help get failed experiments
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: actually published because you've essentially committed to this is the design,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: and as long as all the methods are solid, then
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: whatever you end up with is whatever you end up with.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: And if you end up with like an unconfirmed hypothesis,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: a null result, or you did not produce adequate change
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: in the way that you had hoped to do, so
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: that's useful information, like knowing what not to do is
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: extremely used full And we were talking about those mistakes
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: and the precision teaching sort of community we've long embraced
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: the Instead of even calling them mistakes, we call them
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: learning opportunities because like, that's what that that's what happened.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: Is like you now can do better because you were
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: able to execute on something, have it not work, and
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: now do something differently next time.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: We learned a lot from an error pattern, but quite
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: a lot from an error pattern.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I learned hormonally when my learner starts for period
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 6: because of an error pattern.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 5: So it's valuable inful charts, they really are. I'm so
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 5: proud of these charts.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 6: It also shows the effectiveness of when act started then
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 6: a returned to baseline whenever somebody stopped using ACT with
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 6: this learner, and then when we started using ACT again.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 5: It's gorgeous. So if anybody wants to publisher chart, it's ready.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: I like how we just pivoted to a podcast about
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: good data and data. My work here done.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: Well, Arian, Did you have any questions, thoughts, things you
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: wanted to add?
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: You know, I always like to in conversations like these.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: I think it's useful to point people to where they
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: can find this book, if there's a way to connect
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: with the authors, to ask questions, to follow up, if
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: you have upcoming presentations, if you're doing any kind of
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: book tour, then you know, just letting people know more
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: about the product so they can check it out.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: So we've got some stuff coming up. We're so excited.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: I know that you all are going to be at
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: WEBA doing an autograph signing event on the twenty third.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: On the twenty fourth, there is going to be a
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: book launch party, which is going to be awesome, So
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: you'll be able to spend time with the authors and
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: drink and be merry and have all that. And so
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: if you're at WEBA, spend time with these folks because
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: they are going to do some incredible things there. And
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: then do you have any workshops coming up? I know
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: that's something that you do often, so if you want
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: to push that out a little bit.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 6: We're actually doing a workshop at WEBAB, which is why
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 6: we'll be there initially. So on the twenty third, the
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 6: three of us are going to be doing a supervision workshop,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 6: which we don't actually specifically talk about supervision and Reframe.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 5: Which will come in the second edition.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 6: This is one of the things that we just needed
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 6: to get through, so we're really going to talk about
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 6: what that will look like, essentially, like how do we
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 6: then provide supervision within this kind of reframed lens? And
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 6: then body, why don't you share some more brain children
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 6: that have come from this book?
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: Oh gosh. So I will be presenting in South Carolina
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: in October and introducing some of the caregiver parent components
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: of Reframe, which we're not sure if it'll be in
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: second or maybe third edition.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 5: I mean, I feel like all of these just do it.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: I'd be like, all of these could be standalons. But yeah,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: so really pulling in like what that looks like working
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: with caregivers and making sure, we kind of reframe this
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: concept of we're not creating baby BCBAs out of parents,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: Like if you're giving a parent, you know, fifty something
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: goals to work on when they get home after a
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: forty hour work week. It's not really compassionate, right, and
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: it's not really realistic. So that is kind of where
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: we're moving towards. We are hoping to get our supplementary
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: materials completed here pretty soon. We've had some folks kind
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: of reach out with interest on utilizing this as a
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: textbook in coursework, so we kind of want to ease
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: the response effort and create finish creating out those supplementary
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: materials so that we can hopefully start to reach young
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: aspiring behavior analysts, you know, before they get to that
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: point in their field work where they're like, I have
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: what am I even doing here? Why did I choose
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: this career? Why did I use this path? And I
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: think what else? Jen, You've got some things too on
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: the radar, So I'm going to pass the mike to you.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: Perfect. So we're working with doctor Thanos Pastenos over at
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: the University of Kent on being co contributors on a
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: special edition on Compassionate Care with Emerald Publishing, and also
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: in case I haven't plugged the precision teaching community quite
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: enough already, I'm also the co VP of Programs over there,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: and we're introducing a really cool Sunburn to sweater Weather
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: virtual webinar series that will start the beginning of August,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: kicking off with an amazing writing workshop with Adam Hoffman
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: and then goes through biweekly webinars through mid October, and
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: I'm doing one on providing Compassionate Care with precisions, so
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: I'll be diving into those kind of chapters from Reframe,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: looking at how to blend compassionate care with precision teaching.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: And then we're also working on some international things that
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: will be happening later this fall, likely returning Megan and
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: I were at the University of Kent earlier this year,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: and so we anticipate a return there with the three
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: of us, hopefully in November. So we'll keep y'all posted, and.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 6: I will say, if y'all haven't seen Jen do her
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 6: Compassionate Care with Precision presentations and workshops, they're really great
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 6: and you have some great takeaways from it too, which
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 6: is awesome.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 5: I will say.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 6: Each month we host with the Cross Environments an Act series.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 5: We're doing a year long act series.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 6: Again we're focusing on practicing it yourself and then what
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 6: that then leads to for outcomes for learners and their families.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 5: So that comes out the third Thursday of every month
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 5: and we love doing that one. I think that might
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 5: be all that we have planned for this year.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: It's a few things.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 5: Oh wait, note Manti has one other thing.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, a couple of things. Sorry. We're working with Adobo
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: to get a webinar with them with their monthly Aziaba organization.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: So as soon as we have those dates solidified, we
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: will make sure to post that on our social media
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: and website. And I completely forgot. I also have a
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: CEU that people can access on my Instagram and it
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: is actually pulling in that cultural response. And his piece
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: in relation to ascent based care, not only are we
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: seeing kind of that buzzword of compassion, but also the
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: buzz phrase ascent based care. And so I talk about
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: the nuance of ascent based care for BIPOC families and
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 4: how ascent based care is not something that we can
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 4: just apply, you know, kind of cookie cutter across the
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: board because of different levels of privilege and oppression. And
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: so that is the CEU that I have right now
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: out and available. And then yes, who wants to shout
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 4: him out? The newly minted doctor Jared Van.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, congratulations, he.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 5: Broke the sweetest love letter.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'll never I don't think any of us
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: will ever miss a chance to give a big shout
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: out to doctor Jared Van, who was gracious enough to
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: write the forward for Reframe. So if you're not following
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: doctor Jared Van, please do so.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 5: Oh shame, we need to change that on the cover.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: We can do that.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: Yes, doctor Van, he is phenomenal. He is a pretty
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: rad educator. Talk about cultural responsiveness if you want to
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: really really amp up your knowledge and learning around culturally
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 4: responsive practices.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 5: And precision teaching.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you want to see him on a
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: great panel in the Sunburn to Sweater Sweater Weather series,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: he is on. We have a panel together on that
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: on both those topics.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, the first act book, Acceptance in Commitment
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: Therapy or Acceptance in Commitment Training. It was published in
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: like the mid nineties, and there was an enormous amount
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: of pushback when that book came out and around the
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: whole movement around ACT that came, and it took a
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: good two decades or so, but I think in the
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: last I would say five to seven years in my experience,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: it seems like there has been a much broader acceptance
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: of ACT and implementation of ACT. So maybe maybe the
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: Compassionate Care Book is a similar thing where all you
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: have to do is wait twenty years, guys, and then
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: it'll be it will be fully there. I'm just kidding.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: Hopefully it's fast.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: Think we're about a decade in so maybe there's only ten.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: Maybe there's ten.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's only ten ten years into the reserve so far.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: And things are moving faster, So I think I think
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: we might even be I think we might be closer.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: I think that's I think that's where you have like
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: you folks, yeah seven and a half maybe, So that's
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: where you folks, like you know, doing the disruptive work.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: You've got Jared doing the disruptive work, so like you've
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: got all the stuff happening. So I think now is
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: the time that's like right for I think behavior analysis
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: is looking for a change. I think that the field
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: at large wants a change, and I think that this
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: is I think that we're at a good spot right now.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: So yeah, that's our hope. And as Jared said, this
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 4: is a love letter. This is a tough love love letter.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: And if we did not believe in what we were
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: doing and believe in the principles of this science, we
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: wouldn't have written this book. So as harsh or hard
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 4: or uncomfortable as some of these aspects might be, this
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 4: is from a place of love and compassion.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: Calling in absolutely you love something, you've also taken a
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: critical lens to it.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, all right, is there anything else you'd like
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: to add? Any final notes? We'll make sure that all
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: the information that you just shared about your talks, your workshops,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: all that stuff's going to be in the show notes
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: as well. We'll make sure that gets out the folks
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: so that we've got that. I'll follow up with y'all
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: and get that information too, so we've got the most
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: accurate information.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, you know, we do. At the end of each
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: of our episodes, we recommend some things. They're usually just
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: non it's just not related to the topic at hand.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: But I always forget to ask guests, So I like
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: to recommend movies and TV shows. Shane will usually recommend
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: a book or experience, but he also recommends sometimes movie
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: and TV shows and a lot of music. So if
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: you all have a quick thing you'd like to recommend,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: then that's always a I think a fun thing to
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: end on with with our discussions.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 5: I have a couple of things. Yeah, sure, listening to
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 5: this song.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 6: Do y'all know the band royal otis No have a
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 6: song about right now called moody y'all? It is my
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 6: anthem for the summer. So I finally recommend that one.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 6: I also recommend there are a couple of TV shows.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 6: One very much increases my anxiety level, so I have
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 6: to watch it with caution. And that is your friends
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 6: and neighbors, which makes me feel like I'm I don't
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 6: do this, don't do this because I'm a very honest person,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 6: and so I'm like, you're just living a lot. And
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 6: then I also like Murder Bob because it's I can
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 6: turn off my brain for.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: A hot second.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 4: Awesome, Oh my gosh, something not related I would say
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 4: after this podcast, I would recommend and encourage everyone go outside,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: take your shoes off, walk in some grass, enjoy some nature,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 4: turn off your phone, turn off, get your eyes on
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: something real in front of you and just be for
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: a minute, just five minutes.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 5: Jen rin yo ku yet.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: And then I also want to recommend a show shrinking
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: on Apple TV.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, some board.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: It is such a phenomenal show, and I think even
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: being in the field that we're in, there are just
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 4: some pieces of it that make you kind of go
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: huh and self reflect. So and it's it's Harrison Ford,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: and he's this grumpy old psychologist, and I mean, who
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 4: doesn't love a grumpy old Harrison Ford. So anyways, he
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 4: keeps using this phrase raw dogging it in like the
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 4: absolutely correct. I highly outside and then.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: Watch that show great love that nice.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: Oh man. A recommendation for something that is unrelated. This
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: is like really random, but it's summertime in New England,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 3: and so if you have not tried wealthyed oysters, I
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: would highly highly recommend trying them and pairing them with
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: a really crisp brute champagne already there. It's a very
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: good way to go about it. They're super delicious. Yeah,
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: I think that that would be my recommendation. Yes to nature,
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: some really good music. I am a hippie at heart,
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 3: so I like love a good dead set. That's my
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: personal favorite. Yeah, are you a spreadhead too? You know
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: they're doing a training tour here in Red Rocks. No,
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: that's not my vibe. But I hope that you love
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 3: that would be here too.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 5: You know that's not my vie.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not Southern, so I'm like a you know,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: I'm a fish girl, a dead head. But yeah, my
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: my daddy got me into the dead at the ripe
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: old age of five.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: So that's my uh, jam bands, but not playing, is
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: what I hear?
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, not twaying. Yeah, I'm not brass.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah no, all right, Well, thank you those are really fun.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: Awesome, Thank you all so much for being here. This
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: was so great, So thanks so cool.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we appreciate you all. And yet thanks great time.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: I have a great risk to your weekend and the
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: rest of your weekend.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: Thanks guys, all right, thanks again to them, to our
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: whole group of people for joining us and discussing their book.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: I will say, you know, one thing that sort of
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: stood out to me, and I felt like there wasn't
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: really an appropriate time to interject, but they talked a
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: lot about the first chapter of the book, having a
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: lot to do with this idea of self reflection and
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: critical thinking, and they also talked about well, I guess
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: where I want to go with that is, to me,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: that's what skepticism is, right in a way, I think
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: what they're doing is providing a good skeptical toolbox for
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: moving through the world with an attitude of someone who
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: is what I think is the defining characteristic of skepticism
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: and being a skeptic, which is critical thinking and self reflection.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: And so I actually love that piece of it a lot,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: and that they spent so much time on that because
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk more about We've talked about critical thinking
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: in the past, We're going to talk about it more
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: in the future. And I think it's because we, I
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: think are a skeptical podcast at least we really certainly
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: try to convey that and what that sort of means.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: And we actually have an upcoming mini or maybe it
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: already published. I'm not sure that talks about that that
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: very topic of skepticism. That was something that stood out
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: to me in a little bit. I felt like it
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: was there was not really an appropriate place to jump
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: in with that, but I was like, I feel like
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about here, and I want to
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: acknowledge that, Like, to me, the idea of someone who
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: is like quote unquote skeptical of their approach is maybe
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: not embodying what I would actually think, like instead, I
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: would call that being resistant or even maybe denying, whereas
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: skepticism is. I think what they're doing, what they're advocating for,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: is the critical thinking piece and the self reflection piece.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so too. And I also think I
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: love that the because I got to spend a lot
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: of time with this book and with these folks, and
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: I think that I love so much that there is
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: a I don't want to say I don't think forgiving
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: is the right word, but I do think that there's
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: this state, there's so much of a circumstances view inside
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: of this, like this idea that like, you're not going
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: to be perfect coming out of this, You're going to
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: make mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes, and the biggest
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: thing is understanding that you've made a mistake and go
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: forward with new information, right, Like I think that that
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: is something that they I want to be really clear
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: about this too, Like they live by that. Yeah, Like
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: they have a sa dou correspondence around that that. I
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: don't think that a lot of people do. I think
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of people pay lip service to like, oh,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: people are allowed to make mistakes and da da dah.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: I think they really do this and do this well.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: And so it's just really great to hear from folks
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: that live that live by that code, they live by
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: that practice. That felt really good.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, you know, I don't know if we
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: ended on where people can find this book by where everywhere,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: Like it'll be in Barnes and Noble and Amazon and
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: all that.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: So right now, yeah, if you go on if you
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: go on Barnesnoble dot com, like it's not in the
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: cause it's it's more of a textbook format, so it'll
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: it won't it probably won't show up in like like
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: in the big box stores specifically inside the store, but
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: like Amazon, it's on six and Center Publishing right now,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: it's on It's on a few different places, so like
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: you'll you'll be able to find it in those in
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: those spots.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, great, perfect, and that is currently available right now,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: like people can go purchase it. Okay, cool, episode is out.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: You can buy this book, yes, and you should awesome. Well, yeah,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: I think those are sort of my my thoughts and
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: reflections on that is just it was cool to hear
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: them just they do. I feel like one thing that
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: that really stood out too in this discussion is just
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: how much they build off of each other in the discussion. Yes,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: they really use each each other's sort of points and
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: arguments to then advance the conversation, and it feels very
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: collaborative in that way, and I felt like that was
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: kind of a cool and I think very I want
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: to say accessible, but I'm just like, I feel like
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: it's easy listening if you will, like you can kind
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: of just be there with it. Yeah, because the conversation
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: flow is just feels so natural and it progresses, it
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: doesn't It's not cyclical and repetitive that I think a
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: lot of conversations end up being sometimes. So Yeah, it
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: was just another observation I had about how that went.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they absolutely compliment each other, like intellectually, personally, like
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: they really got to figure it out.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah, I'm excited to check out that book and
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: excited to have given the opportunity for them to talk
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: about it. Is there anything else to add or wrap
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: up before we head into some recommendations for ourselves.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: I Mean, the big thing I would say is just
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: make sure you support them. They're good people, they're doing
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: good work. Support them, uplift them. They're doing great things.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: So and at the very least, I mean, you know,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: just learning more about what they have to say, even
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: if you aren't necessarily in the exact position that they're
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: sort of talking about, even if you're not necessarily in
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: agreement with a lot of the things they're talking about, like,
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: just listen to it and if you still disagree, like
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: then that is a thing, like we can have that conversation.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: Or if you just don't even know and you're just like, well,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: I'm not really in that field or that line of work,
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: but I still think there are pieces of this that
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: are going to be effective at allowing you to sort
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: of I'll reflect and learn and take something else away
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: from it. So I'd say, just just check it out,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: you know, do so on whatever capacity. They mentioned that
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: they have some social media accounts, like you can just
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: check out some of the work, the things they're posting
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: there and learn some things that way. So that allows
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: it to I think work for a broader audience. Yeah,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: absolutely cool. All right, Well, let's recommend some things I
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: like it after these ads recommendations, I'm recommending a song.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: It's I don't even know if I am recommending the song,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: but I am recommending this song.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: I think you're maybe recommending to give it a listen.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: I'm recommending to give it a listen. So this is
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: a song called the Things We Tell Ourselves in the Dark.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: This is the new Between the Buried and Me song,
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: which I believe is off of an upcoming album that
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: they're out soon, and it is definitely the weirdest thing
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: they've ever done. And I will say, you know, most
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: of the time in the past when they've put out
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: songs that I was like, that's weird and I don't
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: know what to think about it. That sometimes that ended
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: up becoming one of my favorite songs by them. So
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: I like metal. I like hard rock and heavy metal
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: and all kinds of metal. But this, and the part
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: of the reason I like Between the Buried Me so
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: much is because of their history of being a very
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: prog metal sort of band.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: This is pretty weird for them, and I would say
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: this is weird even by their standards.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even by their standards. And I think that it
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: also does not fit very neatly into a box of
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: what you would call metal, Like there are parts of
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: it that are heavy, but this is not a very
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: heavy song at all. Actually, so it is. It is
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: pretty strange. So I'm recommending to give it a listen.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: Maybe you will connect with it, maybe not. But it's
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: called The Things We Tell Ourselves in the Dark by
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: Between the Bury and Me. They have a music video
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: out now. You can check that out. It looks to
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: me like someone had a lot of fun directing AI
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: to make a video. Yes, but I could be wrong
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: about that. Maybe someone handed the whole thing. But anyway,
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: that was that's the thing.
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's super interesting stuff. I like it, but I'm
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: still like, I mean that processing, you know what I'll say,
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: I'm processing it.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I'm doing with I think that's right.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: I'm also processing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: I'm going to recommend a book. It's the first book
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: I've ever read by this author, and I have thoughts,
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: but I do think that at the very least, it's
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: a good exercise in thinking more critically about the world
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: around us. And so the book is called Talking to
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell, And the idea is that it's
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: really kind of like talking about how one we really
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: don't know what's going on with people when we talk
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: to them, too, we don't know how to talk to people.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: And three we're really bad lie detectors in general as humans.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: So there is some really cool stuff in there. They
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: he does use some stories that are pretty pretty intense,
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: So he does use case studies around Sandra Bland, around
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: brock Turner, like, he uses those as like some examples
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: of like horrific modern crimes that have occurred and like
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: and how just like kind of like the nuances of
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: those crimes. They're a little bit it's a little bit
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: unique in that regard. He does talk about Sylvia Plath okay,
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: and how she took her own life and all that,
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: So like there are some really interesting kind of case studies,
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: and he does tie this narrative together really well using
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: science and studies and all this stuff. But it made
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: me really think a little bit differently about how we
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: interpret stranger interactions and how we really don't know people.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: So at the very least it's worth reading like that,
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: But there are parts that are a little bit difficult
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: because the crimes are pretty pretty rough.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: So okay, yeah, is this a long book? I just
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: assumed it was a shorter book. No, okay, it's very short.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: I think I read it in like two days.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, well for you it could still be like a book.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: Well, it's also like very like easily consumable.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: I think like he writes in very late person terminology,
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: so it's not like he doesn't talk over your head
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: in this book at all, which is really nice.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, cool, I'm curious. I definitely like critical thinking, and
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: I do like being challenged and particularly in my assumptions
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: and thoughts about relating to other people in the struggles
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: that they have. So yeah, great, this will do that.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: This will do that a good way. Okay, good, yeah.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: All right, awesome. Well, so the things we tell ourselves
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: in the dark, the song by Between the Bury and
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: Me Talking to Strangers, the book by Malcolm Gladwell, if
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: you would like to tell us about anything related to
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: those two things are more importantly anything related to the
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: discussion we had with our guests Compassionate Aba, the reframing
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: idea embedded inside of that, the critical thinking of self reflection,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: we're happy to here are those things. You can email
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: us directly at info at WWDWWD podcast dot com and
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: we're not going to pass on messages to our co host,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: but we will have the contact information that they provided
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: in the show notes, so if you would like to
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: reach out to him via those then feel free to
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: do so, I guess. But of course, if you like
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: this episode and you would like to report us, you
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: can leave us a rating and a review. That actually
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: really does help us reach more people and continue being
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: a podcast. Even if you just click five stars and
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: then just move on about your day. That works too.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: Reviews help as well, but just a nice five star
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: rating is great.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 4: Well.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: You can support us financially by heading over to Patreon.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: If you do that, you'll get early episodes that'll come
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: out a few days I'm ahead of the scheduled release
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: and without ads. And you can also get episodes that
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: are completely unedited at all. You get to hear the
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: unfiltered version of things that we say, which I don't
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: know if someone anybody wants that, but that is a
• 1:25:31
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• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: stuff as well, so you can head of verd er
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: Patreon that helps us out a lot. There's a good
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  Speaker 1: group of people over there. We have a discord server.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: I try and get on about once a week and
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: post some stuff there as well. Otherwise you can reach
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: us on the social media platforms if I hadn't mentioned
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: those already, particularly Blue Sky, but we're on other places
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: as well. And then thank you so much for my team,
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: without whom I could not make this show happen. So
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: writing in fact checking from Shane and myself, thank you
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: for recording with me today.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: Shane, of course, thank you for having me.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: Definitely a huge shout out to our group that was
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: with us today, all the members of that without whom
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: we would have just been talking to ourselves, which we
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: mostly do, but that's you know, it's cool to have
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: other voices as well.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: Emma Wilson is a social media coordinator. And then the
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: person who does all of the audio and particularly stitching
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: a huge amount of content together is Justin. So thank
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: you Justin for all your amazing work.
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: It makes it sound nice.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, he does, all right. I think that's all
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: that I have. Is there anything that you'd like to
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: add before we say goodbyes?
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: We got to shout out the patrons.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, we do have to shout out the patrons.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. That's part of the reason I even
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: brought up the patrons, and so I could shout them out,
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: because that's another benefit you get from being a patron.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: Thank you for reminding me. See, this is why I
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: need to ask if I forgot anything, because then I
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: otherwise do things like this.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: Because we forget today's today's I forgot day. So it's perfect.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: See that is exactly what happened here, But it was
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: just because I was so wrapped up in my own
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: thoughts about things. We appreciate you all so much, and
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: that is Mike, m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brienne, Sorry, Brian, Ashly, Kiara,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: and Charlie. Thank you very much everyone for being supporters
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: for helping us do this show.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: Y'all are beautiful.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: Anything else I forgot anyd not today?
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: Not today?
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, great? Thank you all for listening. This is Abraham
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: and this is Shane. We're out, so yah.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 5: You've been listening to Why we do what we do.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 6: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 6: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com, Thanks for listening, and
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 6: we hope you have an awesome day.