Latest / The Bold Lounge / Michelle Valiukenas: An Unexpected Path Leads to a Bold Beginning

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Michelle Valiukenas: An Unexpected Path Leads to a Bold Beginning · The Bold Lounge

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Round Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact on this.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Every week will hear something important.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to hearing their stories, about their bold stories and mindset that they use to make their access.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they face a way to be persisted, and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: These impactful stories are waiting to be motivated and inspired to pursue their own bold.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be created.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today I have Michelle Bay Canist.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: She is the founder and executive director of the Colette Louise Tizel Foundation.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to see if you wanted to add anything additionally to obviously that's your role and what you do.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: But would you like to add anything else to tell us a little bit about you?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I am I'm 41.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I am a mom of three, um, two angel babies, sweet P and Colette Louise, and one living son who will be three in July.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's Elliot.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I call myself sort of a recovering attorney.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I am an attorney by practice.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: I practice for about a decade.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then really after the death of my daughter, really I just shifted completely and shifted to this and starting my own nonprofit and running it.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of boldness here to talk about today, but we'll start off with your definition.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is your definition of being bold?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like in Michelle's world?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think my definition is being real and being honest.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not censoring ourselves, not hiding away from it.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I hate the sort of like have to or you can't do that.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Those phrases just don't compute in my definition of bold.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And just really, you know, living authentically and showing up as you are, not worrying about what other people are going to think and being willing to take the criticism and roll with it.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really my definition.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great definition.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've had anyone say it's about being real, about being honest and not censoring yourself because of other people's opinions.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of variations every now and then, but I love that it's about being real and that is bold.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So when was the first time you remember being real?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I guess I I always sort of had a streak of boldness in me.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, I I was always the kid who challenged things, who just said, well, why can't that be the case?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why why can't you do it this way?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the the phrase of like, we've never done it that way is my kryptonite.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, no, no, no, that's not what we should be doing.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I guess I've always had a streak of boldness.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: I really think I fully stepped into the boldness that I was after my daughter died.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, there was a lot of sort of not necessarily direct messaging, but there's a lot in the air of sort of like, okay, now you move on.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you just like that was a chapter of your life, you just close it and you move on and you don't really talk about it.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I just refuse to accept that.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to me, it was, you know, Plette is still very much my daughter in the same way that my son is.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And my relationship with them is different.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: My form of parenting them is different, but it's very much my daughter.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just became really real and I shared and I talked about things and I talked about what grief looked like, and I talked about, you know, all the feelings I was having.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And really felt like not only was it helpful for me, but I really felt like I was showing up and other people were saying, Oh, thank you for saying this, because I've never been able to say that.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was really where I think I've stepped into the really the boldness of who I think I always was, but I think I needed that like sort of push into.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it kind of got amplified with your loss.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: It and you felt kind of drawn towards your passion, which was probably uh, I know not anything you would ever thought you would be doing, right?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's not how we set out our lives, you know, based on those things.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: But you were drawn to to do more with it, right?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: To do more with understanding the grief, being able to share or even help people have a voice to describe maybe what they were feeling, or for people to realize they weren't alone.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I mean, our whole journey with CLUT.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll start, you know, kind of briefly.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like my husband and I got married.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: We cried for kids very quickly.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: We were both in our mid to late 30s, and so we just felt like we kind of had a little bit of a time clock on us, and so we started trying.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: No reason to suspect that we would have any issues conceiving, and we did, and we couldn't conceive.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we went finally after um about six months, we went to get infertility testing and had a diagnosis, yes, of infertility, um, but no real reason.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a couple things that they were like, oh, maybe we could improve this a little, maybe we could improve that a little, but nothing really, um, which is frustrating.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so we went, you know, we kind of continued on that journey.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have only ever conceived through IBF.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: And my first round of IVF, we got pregnant, we were excited, and then I miscarried at about seven and a half weeks.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that was just, you know, a whole new experience, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: We had we had focused so long on just getting pregnant that we sort of lost sight of the fact of like that wasn't a guarantee of anything.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then we kept trying.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And on our third round, I got pregnant again with our daughter Clette.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was pretty normal pregnancy.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I will say net pregnancy is not for the week because it can be really tough, but otherwise, pretty normal pregnancy.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: When I was 21 weeks pregnant, um, something in me really pushed me and said I needed to go to the OBE.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I made an appointment, and my blood pressure was 188 over 110.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, like frame of reference.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: The normal, the the ideal is 120 over 80.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I was well above that.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: My OB stayed calm and she said, you know, I need you to go to labor and delivery, and they're gonna monitor you.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: They might put you on medication, but she didn't really sound super crazy concerned.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so we went to the hospital.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're almost six months pregnant at this point, right?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was nervous, and then, you know, once we heard her heartbeat, like, you know, all of a sudden now this was all gonna regulate and they were gonna laugh at us.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like we were, that's what we went in thinking for.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that wasn't the case.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: My blood pressure didn't go down and it, you know, was doing this.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so they started talking about admitting me.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really know exactly why or what was happening after all of this kind of craziness running around when my obese partner, who had been busy with some deliveries, finally had time and she came in, she said, has anyone explained to you what's going on?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, No.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, You have pre you have severe preoclampsia, you are being hospitalized.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay, I understand that.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, and you will stay here until you deliver.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the evening of May 8th.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't due till September 7th.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, everything's going along normally, and then all of a sudden, you get thrown for this.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And what I started to realize was how many other families were putting into this.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It just really realizing how often this was happening, and then really realizing my privilege and my something I'm very thankful and very blessed for is that we didn't have to worry about the financial piece.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: We were able to, I mean, essentially we lost my income fairly quickly.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to take some leave.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to work from the hospital a little bit, but you know, that only goes so far.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, I really just started thinking about it and I started thinking about friends of mine, you know, even friends who are making good money who couldn't afford to lose an income or half an income or anything like that.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I really just started to plant those seeds and really started thinking about that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: So ultimately I was in the hospital a little over three weeks, and Clette had been measuring behind when I was admitted.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she was measuring about two weeks behind.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when they did a repeat ultrasound three weeks later, there had not been any catch-up.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, there had been no growth in those three weeks.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So she was measuring very small.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so the doctors recommended delivery to basically under the under the guise of like, we can do more interventions on the outside than we can on the inside.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so delivered her emergency C section 24 weeks, five days, so very, very early, 16 weeks early.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she went straight to NICU.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we were told all of these scary things, you know, she made it.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: She like made it through the first 24 hours and the first 48.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, she would have these little, you know, dips and issues, and you know, they they'd let us know and then she pull through.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, after probably about two or three days in the NICU, and I did get released two to three days later, and you know, I was home.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: We sort of settled into this routine that we expected to be doing until at least September.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then when she was nine days old, my husband called me in the morning and he said, I called to talk to one of the nurses, um, like I always do, and they put the doctor on.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that sort of was just a key of like things are not as they have been.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I took off real quick for the hospital.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: That was the day that she passed.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So for micropremies, they put them on a on a pretty intense ventilator that really is powerful and and saves a lot of underdevelopment at that point.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Saves a lot of premi lives, but it's so intense in its like saving that it can also like long-term start to really hurt them.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so they really try to keep babies on it for 24, maybe 48 hours, and then they transition them over to a less intense ventilator.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And Clint was never able to handle the less intense ventilate ventilator.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they tried, they had tried over and over and over again, and they couldn't.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we were finally met with was that essentially her body just couldn't take it.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so we lost her that day.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, just really scary and and really uh it's surreal to lose a child, you know.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if anyone listening has ever done it, it's it's not within our like knowledge base, right?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't compute with us.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's very uh it's just very surreal and it's very um difficult and there's a lot of emotions.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: I still, it's been a little over five years, I still struggle a lot with guilt because it feels like my body failed me and failed her.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know that that that's not like logically, I know that's not true, but I do deal a lot with that.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think that was a lot of what pushed me to really be bold was to share that and to say, this is a real problem.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, mom guilt across the board is a thing.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: It is alive and well, and we like all moms are experiencing it.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: But when you lose a child and it's, you know, it feels like it's so connected to you and your body, it's really hard not to add in that extra guilt of doing that.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Would you say that's also connected?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of people, I think, also struggle with infertility, you know, they're weighted for this moment, or they're ready, or you know, they've put it off just to so it's the perfect time and they have the great job, they have the the partner that they want, or they're doing it individually, whatever, right?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, from that perspective.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I think they it's the time they want to do it and it doesn't work.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's also that, like, what's wrong with me?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why am I not working?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and what would you say to people like when they're try in that trying phase but not getting the results?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because I think it's bold to one, go through IVF because it's not easy.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think also for people to know, like, it's okay to stop and it's okay to keep going.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's boldness in each each of those paths.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, for sure, for sure.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that there's a person who's gone through infertility treatment that has not had the question of what do I do next?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I've met many people on both sides of the equation, you know, those who have chosen to go forward, those who have gone alternative methods, yeah, you know, and I and none of it is easy.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: None of it is an easy choice, none of it is, you know, a good option.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it all kind of is is really tough.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think my my advice would be like, it doesn't have anything to do with you.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Pregnancy does not, I mean, it doesn't happen to everybody.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think the average of only 30% of people trying every cycle will actually get pregnant.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's a whole lot of people who are not going to get pregnant each cycle.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think we add to it, these are areas that are so where research is so underfunded that we just don't know enough.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: I always talk about when we were going to try again from after Clint.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: We met, went and met for a preconception visit with a maternal fetal medicine doctor.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he said to me, Well, you know, at 28 weeks, we would start doing some extra fetal monitoring and this and that.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked at him and I said, I've never made it to 28 weeks of a pregnancy.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I can.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it was it was so interesting because here's this doctor who is so specialized in all of this, who was answering all of our questions, who knew all this stuff, knew our case.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And he sort of looked at me and he said, You're right.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and just didn't really know what to say next.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, you know, didn't have those answers because they have this.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is what their process is.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I didn't, I didn't know that I could get there.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: I still don't know if I can get there.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: We ultimately use the gestational carrier for our son.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that, I mean, talk about bold, right?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just do it completely differently.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, obviously you did all your research, you had gone through tremendous loss and you wanted to continue, but you realized that it couldn't be you that delivered the baby.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: You needed a different route.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of analogies of boldness there in the sense of like you can still get to where you want to be, but you might have to think differently.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: You might have to ask for help, you might have to partner with someone.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these are but it doesn't mean you change your goal.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean you stop when it gets hard and talk about like if people just say, Oh, well, I want this certain career, or I want this raise, or I want to start my own business.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is nothing compared to what you've been through.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just saying, like, you didn't give up, but you you you figured out kind of you had an option and you had Elliot, right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So Elliot's how old?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna be three in July.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So Elliot's at all, it's a big three.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: What did that feel like when you realized that you couldn't do it and that you needed help, you needed a partner, and but it was still possible.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think, and just to add to you, I think the other thing about being old is realizing that something that you say today may change, you know, and in a matter of time.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so right after Clut uh died, and we sort of started to, you know, we we took some time and we got past the due date and we started to think about some things, you know, we kind of laid all the options out on the table.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And one of them was to use a uh surrogate agestational carrier.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And at that time, I said, no, nobody will ever carry my child.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because that meant what for you?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Did that mean like you failed, you couldn't do it?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it was a failing and giving up.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was, you know, I just I don't think that I it computed for me at the time.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so we tried naturally, didn't get pregnant.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: We tried one more round of IVF.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the day we found out I wasn't pregnant, what I realized was I was relieved that I wasn't pregnant.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I remember this moment where my husband is in tears and hugging me and I'm I'm trying to comfort him and everything, and and really dealing with that sense of like, I know this is sad, and like I am sad, but I'm also so relieved that I'm not pregnant because I'm so scared of being pregnant.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I really sat with that for a while.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I felt a lot of guilt over feeling that for y'all finding out.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I had said, you know, if this doesn't take, I want to take like a month or two off and let's just think about what we want to do next.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: How old are you at that time?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was just before my 38th birthday.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so late 30.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone feels like clock ticking.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so everyone says, Oh, gotta do it by 40.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And talk about something you feel during IVF, right?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if something fails, something doesn't work right, and it's like you feel like you just have to go right back to it, even if you're not totally emotionally ready, because like that clock is ticking, you know, especially if you are doing this with a partner.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Once you're in a relationship for a little while, you're of a certain age, people expect that you are having kids, right?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you you aren't, you get a lot of questions constantly, like, well, when are you gonna have kids?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when are you gonna, you know, more pressure?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, that's all happening.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, to segue back to sort of the decision, you know, I really toiled with that.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: That feeling of being relieved I wasn't pregnant, confronting the real terror I had about being pregnant again and what that would mean for me.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, was I ready for that?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think the worst part is there were no answers to say this is going to be different this time.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was kind of a lot of that feeling.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of said something, I just like sort of threw that out there.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, you know, I'm wondering if maybe I should.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: We've never had a problem producing embryos.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: We have embryos that are frozen.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it just means maybe there's something we don't know yet, and I'm just not able to carry a pregnancy determine.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, maybe that's how I do it.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Just so everyone knows that I I think it's important when you have pre-ecalympsia, your life is at risk for sure.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: To as the mother.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, situational for the the infant and the neonate, but uh also I mean you could still deliver and then have significant issues.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And just I mean, I I'm very lucky in the fact that that quote after delivery, I didn't have the issues that some women do when they deliver.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I was going for a blood pressure checks.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was being checked.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was on blood pressure medicine.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I am still on blood pressure medicine five years later.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was right at the tip.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they caught it luckily because I was right close to stroke levels that could happen with high blood pressure.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, those are those kinds of things that get really scary.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, for sure.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, the fear was just so real.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: You still want to have a living child, you want to be a mom to a living child.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're concerned about it, and and rightfully so, especially with no real answers.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: My husband and I had joined a support group, and you know, I was sort of toying with this in my head and thinking, you know, how do we tell my husband this?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Is this too much?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: What am I doing?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: What am I thinking?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And at that meeting, it just so happened that there were two women from the group, and one had said they had decided they were dealing with secondary infertility, um, which is infertility after you've given birth at least once and not had the infertility issues.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And she had decided that they were going to try adopting.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then another woman who had been going through IVF repeatedly, her doctor had recommended or had brought up the option of using an egg donor.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of hearing that, and my reaction, of course, was like, oh my God, that's great.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what great ways to just tweak the plan to have a child.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in realizing that in my head, as we were talking about this in this meeting, I thought, so why am I not giving myself the same grace, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Grace, courtesy, you know, anything.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was on the way home from that meeting that I said to my husband, I really think I want to use a gestational carrier.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, he of course was shocked because, like I said earlier, right?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: My statement was like, I will never ever do this.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, never say never, folks.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Never say never.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And here I was.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think he wanted me to really fully know I didn't.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he needed some time to sort of catch up to where I had been.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we met with other couples, we talked to our fertility doctor, who, you know, never told us that we couldn't try and was always willing to try again, but did think was a good idea given the history and given the all the unknowns and sort of my mental health, right?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was the other thing that I had to really take into account, which I don't think we do enough.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we kind of take the physical.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So physically, everyone was telling me like it was okay, but mentally, I don't think I was there.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know if I could get there.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, we really went through and did that and, you know, finally came to the realization that this was this felt like the best way and the most promising way to bring home a child, you know, and that's what we did.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I am so grateful, you know, it was a it was a loss to not carry him.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a difficult loss, you know, to feel that.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I had a lot of worries about would I be able to bond with him if I wasn't the one carrying him?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Would there be some sort of like difficulty adjusting?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I had none of that, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember them giving him to me, you know, after he was born.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we sort of just like looked at each other.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember in like that instant, it was like, you know, two seconds in, I was like, well, that was the stupidest worry I had for 40 weeks, you know, like you know, and biologically he is our child.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: But regardless of whether biology or not, you know, I think there's just some real sense of kids know, right?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and kids have this inclination.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: They know who's who's a safe person, who's not, they know who's the protector, who's not.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think that's why so many adoptions are so successful.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, does that because I think kids really do adjust if it's the right fit.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let me ask you a couple of questions, because a couple of things you said in there that I think can be.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Extrapolated to like many situations.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things is that you were set on a goal for a very, very, very long time and it wasn't working.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you kept doing the same thing in variation.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: But like you know, you tried naturally and then you tried IVF, and that it was IVF, IVF, IVF, right?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: In the sense of like that's what I mean by repeatedly trying.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you had loss and you had definitely indications that it was going to be challenging or even life-threatening, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you tried something for a very long time, but you also like honed in on that's my goal.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: I am not a quitter, I am gonna keep trying.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, like you said, never would I do this, or X or Y.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, what would you say to someone who kind of has a goal?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be something like having a child or just another, I'll say ordinary goal outside of creating a life.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, what would you say to someone who is like hitting that wall and maybe not getting the message to sit back for a second and think about alternatives, not give up.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe what they're doing isn't working, should be reviewed or looked at differently.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you know, definitely taking those breaks and those pauses.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, looking back now on our journey, there were a lot of times where I wish we would have taken the, you know, cycle off or whatever.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and we could have at any point, but you don't feel like you can.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I always tell people if you if you really feel like you need to, unless there is some really good reason not to, take the time, you know, take the minute to to step back and look at it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think that clarity is so important.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So the power and the pause, right?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like the oh yeah, you can use this in so many ways in your life.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, you know, this is one of them, but you know, just being able to like pause for a second in that word you just said, the clarity that comes from just giving yourself a break, giving your loved ones a break.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, whoever's helping you with whatever your goal is, there's probably a group of people who are supporting, cheering, maybe partnering, or maybe you're doing it solo, but you're giving yourself a break first, right?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, it's also you said it with like, you know, people that are supporting you, loved ones, whatever.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm a really big proponent of therapy.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think everybody in the world should be in therapy.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think we all have, you know, being a human and just our day-to-day lives, being an adult is tough, right?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so whatever that looks like for everybody else, I think that's a really important part because you have somebody who's sort of who knows you and is neutral, but also on your side, which is a weird, you know, kind of thing that's really important and really helpful.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also, you know, just today I saw somebody had had an article that was like the company you keep.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I think it's also surrounding yourself with people who support you and have you when you fall, but also push you forward and challenge you and and you know, are there um because those people you want during the whole journey, but when you're hitting those roadblocks, you want those people to sit there and just be sounding boards for all of the things that hopefully come from some clarity of like, okay, so this is where I'm at.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And like, do I give up on this?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, how can I look at this?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Even just the sounding boards of hearing that, I think is so important to do that.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Choosing a different path to get there is not at all, you know, shortchanging yourself or failing or anything like that.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's looking at it and saying, oh, I can't, I can't do this, right?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: This way.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, how can I do it otherwise?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and finding that workaround.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's really important to keep in mind.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's something I I've very much struggled with was if I didn't do it in these like exact ways, then it didn't count, right?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't reach the goal, or I don't even know what exactly all the words were.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that that's really important to just sit there and to say that.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and yes, I mean, that can up to including revising the goal.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it reminds me of like a map on when you're going on a trip and anyone that Google Maps or your iPhone or whatever you use, you know how it gives you three different routes or four different routes and some this is shorter, this is longer, and like it's longer, but there's no traffic, or it's shorter and it's all red and yellow, you know.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of think of that as some of our, you know, our goal paths, right?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't always get to see kind of oh, the red and the yellow, right?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: But we know some might take longer, and sometimes we you know, we take the shorter path and then we pay for it because we sit and it's like oh seven minutes of traffic or whatever.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I kind of think of that visual of some of the ways to get to our goals, and sometimes we have to do the reroute, and you were in that reroute, right?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, rerouting, and it was just like, okay, like what is the next path?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want people to hear that because I think no matter what your goal is, one as important as having a child and bringing a life in into the world, or is it you know, starting a business or pivoting your career, or finding the right person for you?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's a myriad of things you could work on.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Your health, there's multiple paths to get there, and sometimes you might have to reroute.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you're the success of reroute, you're the success story of that.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then additionally, what you've done, and I want to talk about the foundation, is you took the loss and the learning and your understanding of privilege and you created a foundation.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell us a little bit about the foundation you founded?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it really started off with me realizing the financial burden that it was to have all of our sort of steps along the way.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's for me to be a hospitalized, for us to be, you know, to have a child in NICU, and then for us to have lost a child.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And there's financial pieces that come along with all of them.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's sort of a double whammy that I feel families are are put into, right?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's usually some sort of loss of income.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: It could be a very minor of, you know, I had to take off two or three days, or it could be very major, like I lost my job because I couldn't do it, whatever it, you know, it is and everything in between.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's usually some sort of loss of income at the same time that generally your expenses are increasing, whether that's being put on bed rest and having to now, instead of watching your kids, you now have to have a babysitter.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's an extra expense at the same time that you're losing some income.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, going to a NICU, right?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times families are traveling quite a distance.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, right now I think, and I haven't done the most recent math, but I think we're at like 50 miles one way is the average that a family is traveling to a NICU.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a huge financial burden with everything.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then in loss, right?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to do any sort of memorial remembrance, whatever that looks like, that's something, you know, that's an extra expense.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really started thinking about that.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, kind of throughout the whole journey, I just I kept thinking about like, there's so many situations that like I can't, right?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a doctor, I'm not um, you know, a nurse, I'm not a medical professional.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do that part.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: But there's so many things that we could relieve some burden on by just helping out financially.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that really kept speaking to me.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started talking to people.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I talked to the social workers at the hospital where we delivered, you know, just sort of said, you know, hey, is this the thing?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe I'm I'm projecting a problem that isn't here.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the feedback I was getting was, oh my God, please do it.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: What can we do to help you do it?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so we started off with doing financial assistance.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're a nationwide organization.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: We help families in sort of what we see are the three stages of Clect's life.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the three stages that are really problematic.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the high-risk pregnancy, pregnancy develops complications or restrictions, NICU stays, and then loss.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's everything from you know the earliest pregnancy loss up to about one year of age.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Started that off and really just, you know, I had this vision of what I thought the need was going to be.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: That need has completely surpassed even my wildest thoughts.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're coming up on our five-year anniversary.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: We launched in September of 2018, actually on CLUTS due date.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: To date, we've helped over 1,800 families in 48 states, and we've given away over a million dollars in grants.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you took something that obviously happened to you in your life, and you not only are a success story and inspiration of people to figure it out and to reroute, as I said, but I think you know, you took something and also realized I I could help people with what I learned, right?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes we miss that moment in our lives of something's happened to us.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, well, you know, well, that happened to me and that wasn't good, or maybe that happened to me and well, I'm so glad I had X, Y, or Z, because I know a lot of people don't.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then we kind of leave it at that.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: We don't actually do the next step.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you've taken it to the next level.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you're actually coming up on your five-year anniversary.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little about that and kind of what do you need?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: What can we help out with?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: What we can do to support.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been an interesting kind of ride because we started off and we just wanted to see.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't actually know if we if we had this perfect recipe, right?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was we were taking a chance on something.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: We were at a point that we were able to at least partially help just about every family that had applied.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: We review them weekly.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: We are no longer at that point.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we had sort of over the last year and a half or so, we've had an explosion.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we went from having an average of about 10 to 15 applications a week to now our average is 30 to 40.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we're hosting an event in September.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually on the anniversary of the launch, September 7th, in the Chicagoland area.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's called a night at the races, and it's going to be virtual horse races.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: All of that, all the funds are going to go straight to our financial assistance program.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what goes to families.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: We have generous donors who cover any overhead we have.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so 100% of our donations, sponsorships, all of that goes straight to the financial assistance fund.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you know it's going straight to families.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: All the information about the event, your story, and the things that you can learn from Michelle are in the episode notes.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being part of the Bold Lounge, for being bold, sharing your story, which I know uh for some people they can really relate to it.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, like you said, you're giving people a voice, letting them know they're not alone.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: They can reach out to you to talk more about not only your experience, but also how to support the foundation.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being on the bold lounge.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Through the continuum of Bold Stories, vulnerability to taking a leap.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: You will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold experience.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey.