Latest / Rachel Oates / We Need To Talk About Neil Gaiman

Transcript

We Need To Talk About Neil Gaiman · Rachel Oates

0:00
Hey everyone, and welcome back to today's video.
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And today we are going to be discussing the Neil Gaiman
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situation in quite a bit of detail and having a wider
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conversation about consent and power dynamics in general.
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So it's definitely going to be a difficult one.
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It's going to be a heavy one. If you need to skip this video
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for whatever reason, that is absolutely fine.
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I do not mind at all. Please take care of yourself and
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put your news first. So for those of you who don't
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know, Neil Gaiman is currently a 64 year old English author who
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has been accused of essay by a number of women who are either
0:32
his fans or employees or both. He's best known for his fantasy
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short stories, novels, graphic novels, episodes of legendary TV
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series like Doctor Who, and so much more.
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He has always been vocal about calling himself a male feminist,
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and he has been praised in the past for his portrayals of
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strong women. I don't know, I've always found
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that a little questionable, but I've still enjoyed his work.
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I absolutely have, and I think he is an excellent writer.
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Feminist is not the word that will come to mind when I
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describe when I thought of his work, his writing, his his
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stuff. But I thought it was good
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nonetheless. Nonetheless.
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Why can't I speak today? Yeah.
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Like, I think you can enjoy a piece of work or several of them
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while still noticing that it is flawed in various ways,
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including ways that, you know, maybe it doesn't represent women
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in the best way in some cases. And there is a lot of rape and
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torture and murder of women and so on.
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I can think of several of his lesser known graphic novels
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where the female characters, if there are any, reduced to merely
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like a sexy prop, you know? But his work is what we're here
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to talk about today. We're talking about his actions
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off the page in the real world. I do have to say though, like
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I've spoken a few times in videos about separating the art
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from the artist and where is it possible, where is it not and
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that sort of thing. And I have to admit that since
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all this has come to light, I've gone back and reread a bunch of
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his comics and books that I already owned.
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And like I say, as much as I want to advocate for separating
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the art and the artist and saying, yes, it's absolutely
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possible, and I feel like maybe like as long as you're not
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financially supporting someone who's terrible, then it's OK.
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I do find that, like, my experience has been tainted.
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My enjoyment has been tainted. Like, it's really hard to freely
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enjoy the work of someone who you know is a monster, right?
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It's like how you read Lovecraft's horror stories and
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you can appreciate that they're damn fantastic horror stories,
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but in the back of your mind, you're still kind of sat there
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waiting for him to do or say something racist and it makes
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you uncomfortable. And you're like can't, can't
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fully enjoy this. It's it's kind of like that
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here, except you can't quite relax and enjoy the stories as
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much knowing that a lot the times how he was writing about
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women, we're talking about Neil Gaiman again now is how he was
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treating them in real life. And and worse, I don't, I don't
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yes, that makes me uncomfortable.
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I'm struggling a bit. OK, so let's talk about some of
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the allegations against him. And as much as I believe women,
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I have to call them allegations for reasons you know.
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A few have come out since July 2024, but the main ones I'm
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going to focus on in today's video are the ones that spoke
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about in the recent Vulture article which is titled There is
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no safe word how the best selling fantasy author Neil
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Gaiman hid the darkest parts of himself for decades written by
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Laila Shapiro. The whole article is behind a
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paywall, which is a little bit annoying.
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So if you want someone who is going to go through it line my
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line, I recommend you check out Elise video.
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I edited that video for her. It's very good.
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She goes very in depth. She does not hold back.
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She's fantastic. And also I just love Elisi.
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She's a great person. This video is a bit different to
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hers because I'm doing more discussing and analysing,
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whereas she is just very like in depth and talking about it all
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and not holding back. So two different videos, same
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topic, different purposes. I recommend you watch both
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because like I say, I think Alesi's fantastic.
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I'll link hers down in the video description along with a load of
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resources, books you can read if you want to find out if you want
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to find out more about some of the topics I'm discussing.
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And there's also a lot of links to charities and organisations
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that can help you if you have been affected by anything we're
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talking about in this video as well.
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And also if you haven't been affected, but you just want to
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go and support those charities, I really recommend doing that.
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Go and making a donation, volunteering your time, doing
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whatever you can. You know.
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So they will be LinkedIn the video description, right?
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So the Vulture article starts by introducing Scarlett Pavlovich.
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She is the main woman who's accusing gay men in this article
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and who has allegedly, I have to say, being severely mistreated
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by him more than anyone should not.
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Not like she's had it done more to than anyone else.
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Just no one should have to go through this is what I'm saying.
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It's horrific the things this man has allegedly done to her.
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So Scarlett met gaming through his now ex-wife Amanda Palmer of
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the Dresden Dolls and throughout reading this article and
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throughout this video, I absolutely have to question how
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much responsibility Amanda has for what happened.
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Was she to a victim of gay men's or based on some of the things
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later in this article, did she know what he was like and either
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knowingly or unknowingly enabled him?
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Was she putting these women knowingly in danger?
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I obviously can't make any definitive statements, but I can
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give you the evidence and ask questions and let you make up
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your own minds. So when they met in June at
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2020, Scarlett was 22 years old and Amanda was 44.
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Neil would have been around 60 at the time.
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Scarlett. Amanda met on the street.
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And the article tells us that on the surface, Pavlovich that
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Scarlett appeared to be self assured as well.
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A local girl, she dropped out of high school at 15 to travel
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Europe, Morocco and the Middle East on the cheap, pausing in
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Scotland. It was Pavlovich who approached
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Palmer on the sidewalk outside of perfumery.
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She was surprised when Palmer texted her a few days later.
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It's Amanda de Palmer, she wrote.
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You're new friend. The article then goes on to note
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that Amanda is perhaps more famous for her ability to attack
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a tight knit and devoted following wherever she goes, and
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that she's argued in the past there was no distinction between
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friends and fans. So immediately we have this
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massive power imbalance that is very obvious.
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It's clearly going on, and Amanda seems to thrive on this
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in her own life and her own career.
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I have spoken before in many videos about how dangerous it
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can be for celebrities or big influencers to be too close with
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their fans, to encourage parasocial relationships, to
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blur that line between fan and friend and take advantage of it.
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That can be incredibly dangerous for the fans involved.
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It can absolutely lead to that fan being taken advantage of and
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that is undoubtedly what happened here.
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Even before Scarlett met Neil, Amanda was taking advantage of
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her and taking advantage of this power imbalance between them.
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Yeah, Amanda absolutely took advantage of a young fan with no
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family, no support network, who loved her work and had a crush
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on her and it had a lot of trauma in the past that made her
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especially vulnerable. Amanda saw that, took advantage
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of it and used her to get free labour.
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The article goes on to say that over the following year and a
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half, Palmer and Pablo Fitch occasionally met for a meal or a
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drink. Palmer offered Pavlovich tickets
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to her shows and invited her to parties for the patron community
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at her house on nearby Waikiki Island That's in New Zealand.
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Sometimes, Palmer asked Pavlovich favours help running
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errands or organising files or looking after her child.
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Pavlovich was happy to assist. She had a crush on Palmer.
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She didn't mind that Palmer only occasionally discussed paying
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her, even though Pavlovich was always strapped for cash.
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For Pavlovich, who was estranged from her family and without a
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safety net, Palmer filled a deeper need.
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And I'll remind you one more time, this woman is a literal
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millionaire, married at the time to a multi millionaire.
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She is still taking advantage of a young vulnerable woman for
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free labour. And she didn't need to.
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She could have paid for this, she could have afforded this
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more than most people and she still took advantage.
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That alone is messed up and goes on for a couple of years.
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Scarlett kept agreeing to the work and eventually Amanda
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offered to pay her for a weekend of work as her five year old
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son's nanny. She mentioned that this job will
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require going back and forth between her house and Neil's.
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This was 2022. Scarlett was now around 24 but
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still not in a good position in life.
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She had no real support network, no real home, no real income
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stream and she was really relying on these small bits of
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paid work from Amanda. Amanda and Neil Game at this
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point were now separated and living apart, but like I say,
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they still have this five year old son together.
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So Scarlett, who'd been living in Auckland, New Zealand, takes
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the ferry over to the island of Wahiki.
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When Neil lived, Palmer had a rate for a playdate for the
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child, so not long after Pablovich arrived, she herself
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alone in the house with the author.
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For a little while, Gaiman worked in his office while she
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read on the couch. Then he emerged and opted her a
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tour of the grounds, A striking figure at 61, his wild black
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curls threaded with strands of silver.
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Around 8:00 PM, they sat down for pizza.
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Gaiman poured Pavlovitch a glass of rose, and then another.
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He only drank water, so immediately, even though she's
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meant to be there looking after his kid, he's plying her with
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alcohol while remaining entirely sober himself.
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That is a predatory move right there.
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I mean, there's nothing wrong with like someone wanting a
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drink while you're not drinking, but the fact that you're like
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intentionally playing someone with more and more alcohol while
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not drinking yourself on purpose is a red flag, you know?
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And the fact that he's doing it while she's meant to be looking
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after his son later when he gets home, Like you could argue, you
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could could argue not seeing this happen, but you could argue
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that it's very clear he didn't care about her being there to do
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her job and he simply wanted to take advantage of a slightly
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drunk woman alone. It could be argued in this case
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there wasn't so much a celebrity fan dynamic as she wasn't really
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sure or aware of who Gammon was or his work too much.
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But there was one in the sense that A.
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He was three times older than her, B.
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He was essentially her boss and paying her.
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I mean Amanda was too, but they were they were both her boss and
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she was incredibly reliant on this income from them.
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And C he is also a much larger man.
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She is alone in his house and he is sober while she is drunk.
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Lots of power dynamics at play there.
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The article says Pavlovich had never read any of his work, but
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she was anxious to make a good impression.
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After she'd cleaned up their plates, Gaiman noted there was
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still time before they'd have to pick up his son from the play
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date. I found a thought, she recalls
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him saying. Why don't you have a bath in the
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beautiful claw bathtub in the garden?
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It's absolutely enchanting. Pavlovich told Gaiman that she
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was fine as she was, but ultimately agreed.
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He needed to make a work call, he said, and didn't want
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Pavlovich to be bored. Gaman LED Pavlovich down a stone
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path into the garden to find an old fashioned tub with a roll
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top and walked away. She got undressed and sank into
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the bath. A few minutes later she was
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surprised to hear Gamans footsteps on the stones.
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In the dark. She tried to cover her breasts
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with her arms. When he arrived at the bath, she
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saw that he was naked. Gaman put out a couple of
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citronella candles, lit them and got into the bath.
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He stretched out facing her and for a few minutes made small
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talk. He bitched about Palmer's
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schedule. He talked about his kids school.
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Then he told her to stretch out her legs and get comfortable.
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I said no. I said I'm not comfortable with
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my body pulse, Rich recalls. He said it's OK, it's only me,
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just relax, just have a chat. She didn't move.
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He looked at her again and said don't ruin the moment.
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She disinstructed and he began to stroke her feet.
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At that point, she recalls A subtle terror.
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So now not only has he got metaphorical power over her, but
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he's got her in a physically vulnerable situation too, where
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she feels she can't escape, she can't get away.
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Gaiman asked her to sit on his lap.
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Pavlovich stammered out a few sentences.
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She was gay. She'd never had sex.
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She'd been sexually abused by a four year old man when she was
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15. Gaiman continued to press.
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So generally, when a person is faced with a terrifying
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situation like this, there are four ways they may respond.
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Fight, flight, freeze or thorn? There's a great book called
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Constantly Bare by Chanel Contos which I'm going to be discussing
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quite a lot in this video and referring back to.
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And one of the bits I want to talk about for now is that in
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that book it discusses these 4 responses in quite a bit of
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detail. And I think what we can see
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throughout this entire article is that through many of her
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interactions with gay men, Scarlett was displaying both
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freeze and fawn responses. Janelle writes that freezing is
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a common response to being sexually assaulted.
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The brain pauses to assess the situation and roots out of it.
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Meanwhile, she writes that fawning is a strategy that we
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unconsciously learn to get ourselves out of trouble or a
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dangerous situation. It's acting overly nice in order
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to survive an ordeal. This could look like fake
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laughing, fake smiling, letting your rapist drop you home,
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pretending to lie there asleep next to them, or getting
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breakfast with them the morning after an assault.
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She goes on to say that this trauma response is triggered
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when fight or flight and not options to achieve safety.
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It's common in women in heterosexual situations of
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assault as speaking general terms and man will be stronger
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and faster and trying to physically fight or outrunning
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is not an option. And that's what was going on
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here, bearing in mind that Scarlett didn't have the best
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home life and have previously experienced a lot of trauma and
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being assaulted in the past herself.
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Bear that in mind when Chanel goes on to say that fawning is
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common in people with PTSD and in codependent people who
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already harbour people policing tendencies.
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If you've lived in an abusive household or had a long term
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toxic relationship with a boss or former partner, you may be
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used to this idea of playing nice to reduce the impact of
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abuse. So while I've seen some horrible
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people online wrongly saying about Scarlett's story or
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wrongly asking why did she stay? Why did she keep going back?
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Why did she just tell him what he wanted to hear?
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Why didn't she run away or fight him?
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This is why it's a fawning response.
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It's a trauma response. It's very very common.
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It makes sense for the situation she was in.
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Fawning when you're scared to try and make sure you're safe
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doesn't mean you are consenting to any of it.
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Scarlett's story gets so much worse after this as she
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describes Neil Gaiman physically assaulting her in several ways
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in the bath before him telling her to and I quote, call him
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master. I won't read it out, it's not
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very nice, but it's an Elise's video if you want to go and
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watch, and it's also on the article if you want to go read
14:27
it for yourself. The article was on say that
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afterwards, Pavlovich crouched down in the water and tried to
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clean herself off. Gaiman looked at her and smiled.
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He said Amanda told me I couldn't have you.
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But as soon as he'd heard this, he knew he had to have her.
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God. He continued.
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I wish it was a good old days where we could both F you.
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So again, this part makes me question Amanda's role in all
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this. How much did she really know?
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I feel like if you have to warn someone to stay away from a
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vulnerable young woman that they're employing, then surely
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you know on some level that she's not entirely safe with
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him. I right, I don't know, I'm
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sorry. I'll leave you out there OK?
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It also absolutely shows Neils mindset here.
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This idea that he knew he had to have her upon hearing he
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couldn't. It was never about him liking
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Scar as an individual. It was never about them having a
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consensual relationship to him. It was all about wanting power,
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control and only seeing women, in particular this woman, as an
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object to play with. You know, he's like a kid with a
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toy that he's supposedly can't have.
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He wants it not because he wants that toy, but because he wants
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the power and control and to have something he's been told he
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can't. You know it.
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Chanel writes in her book that men are generally not trained to
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see women as their true peers. Women often seen as objects.
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Women can only be made objects when the basic principles of
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human empathy fail to be applied to them.
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When the female body can be commodified, exploited and hurt
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in the name of male pleasure, how can they be seen as true
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humans? And this is exactly what we see
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if gay men's behaviour here and throughout the rest of the
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article. Voltra article goes on to talk
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about Neil's work and career, and the power he had of a fans
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in general. Women would turn up to his
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signing stressed in elaborate Victorian goth attire of his
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characters and beg him to sign their breasts.
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So slip him key cards to their hotel rooms.
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One writer recounts running into gay men at a World Fantasy
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convention in 2011. His assistant wasn't round and
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he was late to a reading. I can't get to it if I walk by
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myself, he told her. And as they made their way
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through the convention side by side, the whole floor of people
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tilted and slid towards him. She says.
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They wanted to be entwined with him in ways I was not prepared
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to defend him against. A woman fell to her knees and
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wept. People who flock to fancy
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conventions and signings make up an inherently vulnerable
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community, one of Gaman's former friends, a fancy writer, tells
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me. They wrap themselves around a
16:46
bolover text so it becomes their self identity.
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They want to share their souls with the creators of these
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works, and if you have morality around it, you say no.
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It was an open secret in the late 90s and early aughts among
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convention goers that Gaman cheated on his first wife, Mary
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McGrath, a private Midwestern Scientologist.
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He admired his early 20s. The idea of predators being able
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to spot and target vulnerable victims is sadly not new.
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It's very, very common. We see that predators often
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entwine themselves in communities and groups of people
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that are kind of known for being vulnerable and, you know, so
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that they can pick out victims. So maybe they'll go and
17:24
volunteer with kids in the social care system or in gay
17:28
men's case, they go to these fancy conventions where they
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know they're going to be vulnerable women who are
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essentially easy for him to manipulate.
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You know, or sometimes you see predators are just very good at
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kind of like picking out people who have had previous, previous
17:43
trauma or who are vulnerable and kind of targeting them
17:47
specifically. Like they're very good at
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knowing who to target. In her memoir, consent memoir
17:54
and Jill, I think, I think it's pronouncement, she reflects on
17:59
her relationship with her at the time of writing, recently passed
18:02
husband of 45 years and how her view of the relationship changed
18:06
over the years. There were 30 years between them
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and they were married a hell of a long time.
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So when he died, she was in her 60s.
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He was in his early 90s, I believe, something like that.
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But when Jill and Arnold first met, she was just 16 and he was
18:22
46. They first kissed when she was
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17 and he was 47. He was her art teacher, and Jill
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admits herself in a memoir that she was in a particularly
18:34
vulnerable position compared to the other students he was
18:36
teaching. She writes that I plan not to
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bother finishing high school come May.
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Artists didn't need diplomas. I was emancipated minor.
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My single mother had three other children to feed.
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And there's also the dynamic she talks about, about how her
18:47
father had abandoned the family a few, how her father had
18:51
abandoned the family a few years before.
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She had a lot of issues around that and a lot of trauma around
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it. And she kind of feels now,
18:58
looking back, that Arnold maybe saw these vulnerabilities in her
19:02
and took advantage of it. She goes on to write that when
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she was just 17, he kissed me. I could have screamed, I could
19:08
have slapped him. But what 17 year old is prepared
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to slap a 47 year old man she'd fantasised about for the
19:14
previous six months? And I fervently kissed him back.
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I'd imagined his kiss ever since he looked down my blouse.
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But did I have the agency to consent?
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The teenage brains impulsive. There's a mismatch between the
19:27
limbic system which is the centre of emotion, and the
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prefrontal prefrontal lobe which controls logic and reasoning.
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Californias age of consent is 18.
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There's a Romeo and Juliet cause in cases of statutory rape that
19:38
forgives love is close in age but obviously that didn't apply
19:41
here. Did the art teachers behaviour
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the extra attention he gave me in class, the evenings he used
19:47
my art to demonstrate how the tendons cross over the elbow the
19:50
night he looked down my blouse qualify as child grooming, a
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term that psychologists used to describe a paedophiles
19:56
recruitment techniques and in her book and life experience.
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It's not just Arnold who did this either as she got older
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and. Other older men, including
20:04
lecturers at her university, as they began to find out about her
20:07
relationship with Arnold and the other things going on in her
20:09
life, they began to see her as an easy target and go after her
20:12
too. There were these older lecturers
20:14
hitting on her, touching her without consent.
20:17
One man literally locked her in his office and sexually
20:20
assaulted her. Again, we kind of have to ask,
20:22
like, is it a thing with predators where they're just
20:24
that good at picking out who they think are going to be easy
20:27
targets? If we go back to Scarlett's
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experience for a moment and after the initial assault, you
20:32
might think that she would just run away and never see gay men
20:35
again. But she didn't have the power to
20:37
do that. She was relying on Neil and
20:39
Amanda for a home and income, and she had no other choice than
20:42
to stay. Papovic was living in a sublet
20:45
that was about to end. She was broke and hadn't been
20:47
able to find a new apartment. She'd been homeless at the start
20:49
of the pandemic when the perfumery she worked at closed,
20:52
and it ended up crashing on the beach in a friend's sleeping
20:55
bag. On and off for the first two
20:57
weeks of lockdown, the thought of returning to the beach
20:59
philtre with dread. She didn't consider reaching out
21:02
to her own family. Her parents were divorced when
21:04
she was 3, and Pablo Fitch had grown up splitting time between
21:07
their households. Violence, Pablovitch tells me,
21:09
was normalised in the household. One close family member beat her
21:13
with a belt. Another would strangle
21:14
Paplovitch when she got upset and slap her across the face
21:17
until her cheeks were raw. She regularly began to cut her
21:20
arms at wrist with a knife. When she was 11, she became
21:22
bulimic, then anorexic. By 13, Pablovich had grown so
21:25
thin that she ended up in a psychiatric unit at Auckland
21:28
Children's Hospital and spent weeks on a feeding tube.
21:31
When she was 15, she left home and never went back.
21:34
In the years since, she'd been looking for a new family, but
21:36
many of the people she'd encountered in that search
21:38
turned out to be abusive as well.
21:40
After all of this, Amanda Palmer was an actual creature sent from
21:43
a celestial realm. It was like, Hallelujah.
21:45
Pablovich tells me Palmer was famous for speaking out about
21:49
sexual abuse and encouraging others to do the same in songs
21:52
and essays she'd written of having been sexually assaulted
21:54
and raped on multiple occasions as a teenager and young women, a
21:57
young woman. Pavlovich didn't think someone
22:00
like that could be married to someone who would assault women.
22:02
So this comes back to what I was saying about her being
22:05
especially vulnerable and Neil kind of seeing that and taking
22:08
advantage. Some people, again, wrongly, are
22:11
like, oh, well, if a woman sexually assaulted once, she's
22:13
unlucky. But if it happens repeatedly,
22:15
then it's her fault. And that is just an absolute
22:18
load of crap. Once a person already has
22:21
trauma, it can be so much easier for other people to manipulate
22:24
and control and hurt them and it's heartbreaking and it's
22:26
absolutely not their fault, is it babe?
22:29
No, it's not. Scarlett resorted to fawning
22:32
over gay men repeatedly to try and keep herself safe.
22:36
The fawning is not a sign of consent, it's a sign that she
22:39
was petrified and trying to save herself, the article says.
22:43
After Palm's offer, Pavlovich texted gay men.
22:46
I'm consumed by thoughts of you, the things you'll do to me.
22:49
I'm so hungry. What a terrible creature you've
22:51
turned me into. The following weekend, she
22:53
packed up her sublet and boarded the ferry to Wahiki.
22:56
Saying no to him directly had not worked.
22:59
Pleading with him to leave her alone hadn't worked.
23:01
She had no physical way to fight back against him, so she felt
23:05
like if she played along with his games and told him what he
23:08
wanted to hear, he would treat her better and be less likely to
23:11
hurt her. Sadly, this didn't work either
23:14
because there's really no way to win with predators like this.
23:16
But she had to try something and she felt like this was keeping
23:19
her safer than, you know, physically fighting him or
23:24
running away or whatever. It's like that wouldn't work.
23:26
So the article for a while talks about how he seemed to have this
23:28
really friendly public persona and that no one ever expected he
23:31
was anything but lovely. However, his mask did slip with
23:34
some people. There was some who turn on the
23:36
side to the author. One woman, Brenda, a pseudonym,
23:39
met gay men in the 90s at a signing for The Sandman, where
23:42
she was working on signing lines.
23:44
Gay men had an app for connecting with each individual.
23:46
A few years later, Brenda travelled to Chicago to attend
23:49
the World Horror Convention, where gay men received the top
23:51
prize for American Gods, the book that cemented him as a best
23:54
selling novelist. The night after the award
23:56
ceremony, she and Game and ended up in bed together.
23:58
As soon as they began to hook up the feeling that had drawn her
24:00
to him, the magical spell of his interest in her individuality
24:04
vanished. He seemed to have a script.
24:05
She tells me he wanted me to call him Master immediately.
24:09
He demanded that she promised him her soul.
24:11
It was like he'd gone in this into this ritual that had
24:13
nothing to do with me. In summary of his allegations,
24:16
the Vulture article states this past July, a British podcast
24:20
produced by Taught U.S. Media broke the news that two
24:22
women had accused gay men of sexual assault.
24:25
Since then, more women have shared allegations of assault,
24:27
coercion and abuse. The podcast Master, reported by
24:31
Paul Corona Galicia and Rachel Johnson, tells the stories of
24:36
five of them. Gay man's perspective on these
24:38
relationships, including with Paplovitch, is that they were
24:41
entirely consensual. I spoke with four of those
24:43
women, along with four others whose stories shared elements
24:46
with theirs. I also reviewed contemporaneous
24:48
diary entries, texts and emails with friends, messages between
24:52
gay men and the women, and police correspondents.
24:54
Most of the women were in their 20s when they met Gay men.
24:56
The youngest was 18. Two of them worked for him, five
25:00
were his fans, with one exception, an allegation of
25:03
forcible kissing from 1986, when gay men was in his mid 20's.
25:07
The stories take place when Gay Men was in his 40s or older, a
25:11
period of time when he lived in the US, the UK and New Zealand.
25:14
By then he had a reputation as an outspoken champion of women.
25:18
Then there's just more and more stories of him taking advantage
25:21
of people who were fans of his. And this isn't just a matter of
25:24
like, oh sorry, I misread the situation and made you
25:26
uncomfortable. I'm so sorry.
25:27
Like never let me, let me never do it again.
25:30
These are stories of him repeatedly going out of his way
25:33
to manipulate women, lying to them, ignoring their literal
25:38
pleas for him to stop, and repeatedly overstepping
25:41
boundaries that he knew were there because they told him
25:45
repeatedly. So.
25:46
Catherine Kendall was 22 when she met gay men in 2012.
25:50
She was volunteering at one of his events in Asheville, NC.
25:54
He invited her to join him a few days later at an after party for
25:56
another event where he kissed her.
25:57
The two struck up a flirtatious correspondence, emailing and
26:01
Skyping in the middle of the night.
26:02
Kendall didn't want to have sex with gay men, and on one of
26:05
their calls calls she. Oh baby, careful, you're OK,
26:08
you're safe. Kendall didn't want to have sex
26:10
with gay men, and on one of their calls, she told him this.
26:14
Afterwards, she recorded his reply in her diary that he had
26:18
no designs on me beyond flirty friendship, and I believed him
26:21
thoroughly. At a reading 10 months later,
26:23
Gaiman suggested that Kendall and two of the girls wait for
26:25
him on his tour bus so they can all hang out after he was done
26:27
signing. When Gaiman showed up, he pulled
26:30
Kendall into the back of the bus and lay on top of her.
26:32
He kept saying, kiss me like you mean it.
26:34
She tried to get into it, but she was panicked.
26:37
Eventually, Gaiman rolled off her.
26:38
I'm a very wealthy man, she remembers him saying, and I'm
26:41
used to getting what I want. Years later, Gaiman gave Kendall
26:44
$60,000 to pay for therapy in an attempt, as he put it in a
26:49
recorded phone call to make up for some of the damage.
26:53
Another story says that Gaman had been having sexual
26:55
encounters with younger fans for a long time.
26:57
Kendra Stout was 18 when in 2003, she drove 4 1/2 hours to
27:02
Fort Lauderdale, FL to see Gaman reaped from endless nights.
27:07
She met him in the signing line. Gaman sent her long emails and
27:10
bought her a webcam so they could chat on video.
27:13
Around 3 years later, he flew to Orlando to take her on a date.
27:17
He invited her back to his hotel room and held her down with one
27:20
hand. Gay men didn't believe in
27:22
foreplay or lubrication, Stout tells me, which could make sex
27:26
particularly painful. When she said it hurt too much,
27:29
he'd tell her the problem was she wasn't submissive enough.
27:31
He'd talk at length about the dominant and submissive
27:34
relationship. He wanted out of me.
27:36
Stout had no prior interest in BDSM, she says.
27:39
Gaiman never asked her what she liked in bed, and there was no
27:41
discussion of safe words or aftercare or limits.
27:44
He had asked her to call him master and beat her with his
27:46
belt. These were not sexy little taps,
27:49
she said. When she told him she didn't
27:50
like it, she says he replied. It's the only way I can get off.
27:54
I mean, if all of these women have such similar stories of
27:57
their experiences despite never having met, never having
28:00
discussed this before, sharing it publicly, like, then it
28:02
suggests that they're likely very true.
28:04
And we're seeing a pattern of behaviour for him.
28:06
You know, these are specific things that he's doing over and
28:09
over again that multiple women are corroborating it.
28:13
You know, I also want to, at this point, talk for a little
28:16
moment about his BDSM comment. Later, he also said so.
28:20
According to the podcast, which put gay men through his
28:22
representatives, his position was that sexual degradation,
28:25
bondage, domination, sadism and masochism may not be to
28:29
everyone's taste, but between consenting adults, BDSM is
28:33
lawful and it absolutely is. But what gay men was doing was
28:36
absolutely not BDSM. Every single person in the BDSM
28:40
community will tell you that the key to it all is communication
28:43
and trust. Every single person has to be
28:46
informed on everything and give prior consent, which can
28:49
absolutely be revoked at any time.
28:52
It's as much about the submissive party enjoying it and
28:56
in a lot of ways actually being in control, as it is about the
28:59
dominant party enjoying it and seemingly being in control.
29:03
You know, if there's no prior discussion, if the submissive
29:06
party doesn't have any say in what happens, if there's no
29:09
consent, no safe words, no aftercare, then it's not BDSM,
29:13
it's just rape. It is that simple.
29:16
Neil Gaiman, if these allegations are true, was not
29:19
getting off to BDSM or just being dominant.
29:23
He was simply raping women. And there is a massive
29:26
distinction. I can't believe that even needs
29:28
saying. This woman tells another story
29:30
of gay men raping her which is so graphic and disturbing that I
29:34
will not read it out in this video.
29:37
Lizzy does cover in hers so it's it's horrifying though.
29:42
And to summarise, she had a very painful UTI, so she told him not
29:47
to penetrate her at all because she was in pain.
29:50
He did it anyway, repeatedly with various body parts.
29:53
And at that point, she tells me, I just shut down.
29:57
She lay on the bed until he was finished.
29:59
It's sickening. And this is just rape.
30:01
There is no other word for it. You know, you knew a kid in
30:04
school and you didn't. Like, she says he history and
30:06
you're doing, like, World War 2 stuff.
30:07
And everyone's like, yeah, but I don't get it.
30:09
Hitler was clearly a bad guy. Like, I don't get how people
30:12
fell for it. I don't get why people liked
30:13
him. I don't get how we got to power.
30:15
And now I'm like, well, now we're literally seeing that
30:18
happening in front of us. Like this is how it happened
30:21
before. It's happening again.
30:24
Except we should have the knowledge this time to not let
30:27
it happen. And honestly, this time it's
30:29
like even more in our faces. I don't have the words.
30:33
I I just feel like I'm watching a bunch of idiots doing idiot
30:39
things and there's nothing I can do to stop it.
30:41
And it's absolutely terrifying, right?
30:45
It, it doesn't feel real. It's so bizarre.
30:50
I don't know. Sorry.
30:51
That was a voice note to Alisi and Angelina Scarf, because
30:55
we're talking about the whole Elon Musk Nazi saluting at the
31:01
inauguration thing. And apparently people are making
31:03
excuse now that he's just an autistic man trying to dab.
31:06
And he did it badly. And Eva was like, Rachel, you're
31:10
artistic. When you dab, do you
31:12
accidentally Nazi salute? It's like, funnily enough, no,
31:17
No, I don't. Not that I have a dab.
31:18
But you know what I'm trying to say?
31:20
It's a stupid excuse for a stupid man who's just evil and
31:24
stupid. And I.
31:25
Oh, it's horrifying to, like, watch all this unfold.
31:29
Anyway, Speaking of horrifying, Sorry.
31:31
Neil Gaiman. Yeah, like I said this again,
31:33
this isn't BDSM. He allegedly repeatedly
31:38
penetrated an I'll woman who repeatedly told him to stop and
31:42
repeatedly told him no, that is rape.
31:45
And that's not just any rape, but that's rape with malice and
31:47
forethought, with absolute disregard for her as a human
31:51
being. That's not OK.
31:54
Like the article then goes on to explore again is childhood,
31:58
growing up with Scientologist parents and being abused by the
32:00
church. And it is, it is sad to read.
32:02
It absolutely is. No child should have to go
32:04
through that. You guys know how I feel about
32:06
Scientology in general. And that's actually, you know
32:09
what? I don't think I've ever made a
32:10
full video about Scientology, but I have been thinking about
32:13
covering. Was it Leah?
32:17
Leah. What was her name?
32:18
Leah. Leah Remini.
32:21
Leah Remini. Yeah.
32:22
I was thinking about covering her book on it.
32:24
I think it was hers. And I'll stop my head anyway.
32:26
I'm not going to talk about it now.
32:27
I need to do more research, but potentially a video on
32:29
Scientology at some point if they don't kill me first.
32:33
Yeah. So like clearly understanding
32:35
his child and seeing all of this and it's just proof that like
32:38
cycles of abuse are continuing going forward.
32:41
And it's, it's absolutely horrible.
32:42
He was abused as a child. Now he's abusing others.
32:45
And I feel like when we read all this stuff, we can absolutely
32:48
feel sorry for him as a child and what he went through and be
32:51
like, oh God. Like, he's clearly got a lot of
32:52
trauma. I hope he gets therapy and help
32:55
and we can still understand how awful Scientology is and be
32:58
furious at the church whilst not using that to excuse his
33:03
behaviour. It maybe explains his behaviour
33:05
but it doesn't excuse it. It doesn't excuse how he treated
33:09
women. We can still be absolutely
33:11
furious at that too and understand that there's
33:13
absolutely no excuse for his behaviour.
33:15
Have I made any sense? I hope right Then the article
33:19
goes on for a bit to focus on the relationship between Neil
33:21
and his now ex-wife Amanda who like I say we're talking about a
33:24
little bit so far. So I got some history here
33:27
saying Gaman and Palmer met in 2018 when she was 32 and he was
33:32
47. Both were a turning point in
33:34
their lives and careers. Gaman was in the midst of
33:37
finalising a divorce from his first wife, with whom he had
33:39
three children, and on the verge of breaking into Hollywood.
33:43
Palmer was in a fight with her record label that would
33:46
culminate in a split. So again, it could be argued
33:49
that there was a massive power imbalance here.
33:51
The age thing maybe isn't so much for a big deal at these
33:54
ages 3247, that's fine. But the fact that like he was at
33:58
such a big powerful point in his career and she was struggling a
34:02
bit like maybe suggests and they just might work together and
34:06
stuff. And she kind of needed his help
34:07
with like maybe maybe there was a little power imbalance that
34:10
maybe he had a little bit more power overhead that who's to
34:13
say? I don't know.
34:14
It's not like with his employees and stuff, though.
34:17
Gaiman was the first to propose a romantic relationship in an
34:20
interview, he later said. I got together with her because
34:23
I couldn't ever imagine being bored.
34:25
Palmer could. So at the time when they got
34:27
together, she had no savings and didn't own a car, real estate or
34:31
kitchen appliances. Gaiman owned multiple houses.
34:34
He was too rich, too famous, too British, too awkward, too old,
34:37
and they didn't have great sexual chemistry.
34:40
But he appeared to be kind and stable, a family man, and they
34:43
shared a dark, fantastical aesthetic.
34:45
She also felt a little sorry for him.
34:47
He seemed lonely in spite of his fame, and Palmer found herself
34:51
hoping she could help him. He believed for a long time,
34:53
deep down, that people didn't actually fall in love, she wrote
34:56
in her book. But that's impossible, she told
34:59
him. He'd written stories and scenes
35:00
of people in love. That's the whole point, darling,
35:03
he said. Writers make things up.
35:06
All the red flags, right? Like all of them.
35:10
And it seems that for a long time they both had an open
35:11
relationship, which is absolutely fine.
35:13
They were chair partners sometimes also fine.
35:16
Again, all fine if they're consenting and adults.
35:20
But some of the stories seem a little dubious.
35:22
Like when a 36 year old Amanda picked up a 20 year old fan at
35:26
one of her concerts, slept with her, and then essentially just
35:30
passed her on to Neil. So again, she's finding someone
35:34
with whom she has a power imbalance and a massive like age
35:37
difference with. This person is 20 and vulnerable
35:40
and a fan and she's just like yes let me sleep with you until
35:42
I'm bored and then pass you on to my nearly 50 year old
35:47
husband. This was in 2012.
35:53
In 2012, Palmer met a 20 year old fan who asked to be referred
35:56
to as Rachel at a Dresden Dolls concert.
35:58
After one of Palmers next shows, the women had sex the morning
36:02
after Palmer snapped a few net semi naked photos of Rachel and
36:05
asked if she could send one to gay men.
36:07
She and Palmer slept together a few more times, but then Palmer
36:09
seemed to lose interest in sex with her.
36:11
Six months after they met, Palmer introduced Rachel to
36:13
Gaming Online, telling Rachel he'll love you.
36:16
The two struck up a correspondence that quickly
36:18
turned Sexual and Gaming invited her to his house in Wisconsin.
36:21
She packed for the trip and asked Palmer to e-mail over if
36:24
she had any advice for pleasing gaming in bed.
36:26
Palmer joked in response. I think the fun is finding out
36:29
on your own. With gaming, Rachel says there
36:31
was never a blatant rupture of consent, but he was always
36:35
pressing her to do things that hurt and scared her.
36:37
Looking back, she feels Palmer gave her to him like a toy.
36:43
So again I have to ask, how much did Amanda really know?
36:46
How much was she involved? How much was she aware of?
36:48
What was her actual role in this?
36:50
It's creepy as hell. Then there's another story in
36:53
the article of Neil helping a family friend by providing
36:58
income and home, only to completely take advantage and
37:02
then threatened to take it all away so he could keep abusing
37:04
her. He's like, are you seeing a
37:06
pattern here? You know, 11 allegation maybe
37:11
could be fake or false or exaggerated.
37:14
But when you have so many women having the same thing happened
37:18
to them by the same man over and over and over again, I just
37:22
don't see how that could be like, not true or fake it, just
37:26
it, you know, I know I still have to say allegedly, but I
37:32
think we all know how I feel. One of the people in whom Palmer
37:36
confided about her marital issues at the time was Caroline
37:39
Wallner, a Potter who along with her builder husband Philip, had
37:42
been living on the Woodstock property that Amanda Neil owned
37:45
and working as a caretaker. Or I think maybe just Neil owned
37:48
it. Gaiman had made them an offer
37:50
that seemed too good to be true. They would build an addition on
37:52
one of the cabins on the land at Gamer's expense and in exchange
37:56
Gaiman would sell them A5 acre parcel allowing them to put the
37:59
bond style home to share with their three daughters.
38:02
They tended to the garden, run errands for guests and
38:04
rehabilitated the buildings that which needed plumbing and
38:07
electrical work. But their marriage of 11 years
38:09
was falling apart too. In 2017, Philip moved out of
38:12
their house. Walnut, 54, spent her days in
38:15
bed crying and drinking. She stopped eating and for the
38:17
most part stopped working. It was then Gaiman began paying
38:21
her attention. He would bring juices up to her
38:23
cabin and fret she was losing too much weight.
38:26
The first time he touched her was in December 2018.
38:29
She was sitting on his couch next to him, crying from
38:31
exhaustion. Gaeman told her.
38:33
You need a hug. She stood and he hugged her.
38:36
Then he slid his hands down her pants and into her underwear and
38:39
squeezed her butt. She does not recall saying or
38:41
doing anything in response. I was stunned, she said, which
38:46
is a typical freeze response. So even though this woman is
38:49
older than his other victims, she was still in a vulnerable
38:52
position. And again, it's like they
38:55
predators can see that, isn't it?
38:57
Over the next two years, they had a series of sexual
38:58
encounters. Always when Palmer was away,
39:00
when gay men wasn't around, they occasionally engaged in phone
39:03
sex. At first, Warner, who hadn't
39:05
been with anyone since Philip left, went along willingly.
39:08
But at the end of their second encounter, she remembers asking
39:11
gay men what Palmer would think about their romance.
39:13
He said, Caroline, there is no romance.
39:16
And after that, she tried to keep her distance from him,
39:18
darting away when she saw him on the estate.
39:20
So the flight response, he was difficult to avoid.
39:24
He kept an egg incubator in Walnuts cabin and would come
39:27
down and check on it entering without texting first.
39:30
So he's just barging into her home without asking, without
39:34
telling her she doesn't have a choice in the matter.
39:36
Then there's another description of an assault, which again, I'm
39:39
not going to read out, but it's followed by nothing changed.
39:43
Walner had no income at the time and was borrowing money from her
39:46
sister to get by. She worried that if she didn't
39:48
appease gay men, he'd kick her out of her house, and then she
39:51
and her three daughters would have nowhere to go.
39:54
I like our trade. She remember saying to him, you
39:56
take care of me and I'll take care of you.
39:58
And there you have the fawning response.
40:01
So she then tells the story of gay men attempting to be sexual
40:04
with her while his son was literally in the bed between
40:08
them. Like sleeping but in the bed.
40:11
Again, won't read it out, but he didn't have boundaries, Walner
40:14
said. I just remember thinking there
40:15
was something really wrong with him.
40:17
And again, this is sadly another pattern of behaviour because
40:20
Scarlett tells a very similar story herself, which we'll talk
40:22
about in just a few moments. Gaiman finally took back his
40:26
offer of land and monetary support from Walner, kicked her
40:30
out of her home and then tried to silence her with an NDA and
40:33
paying money for her to get therapy.
40:36
Again, that's the pattern of behaviour we've seen before.
40:40
And I find out about the one situation Amanda said.
40:44
That poor woman, I can't believe he did it again.
40:48
So again, he did it again. Like, how much did she know?
40:51
I'm going to keep asking. I think more people need to be
40:54
talking about that, to be honest.
40:55
I mean, she's obviously not as bad as gay men, but clearly
40:58
maybe she could have allegedly played a massive part in it.
41:03
So the article switches back to talking about Scarlett's
41:04
experience here, and this next part is so graphic and
41:08
disturbing, disturbing and disgusting that I cannot read it
41:12
out loud. The first time I read this, I
41:16
actually gagged. It's one of the worst things
41:18
I've ever heard. And if you need to skip this
41:22
next part of the video, that's fine.
41:23
Go to the next chapter. I absolutely would not blame
41:26
you, but I will give you a summary.
41:29
And even even the summary is bad.
41:33
Basically, Neil Gaiman, allegedly in one instance anally
41:39
raped Scarlett in the kitchen while his son was in the house.
41:43
He used literal butter as a replacement for lubricant and
41:47
then made her lick the butter and her own excrement off his
41:51
private parts. He made her shower while he
41:55
shoved lavender soap in her mouth.
41:57
On another occasion, he raped her, causing so much pain she
42:00
passed out on another. On another occasion, he made her
42:05
lick his own urine off of him. On another, he forced himself in
42:09
her mouth so hard she vomited and then made her eat her and
42:11
vomit. And then on another occasion, he
42:14
raped her in a hotel room, literally in front of his son
42:17
with only a duvet covering them. It's just the most vile, vile
42:24
thing imaginable. He Oh, no, no, it's, it's
42:30
unforgivable. So to go back to Chanel Contos's
42:33
book, Consent Laid Bare, which is about earlier, that book
42:37
talks about how there's different kinds of people who
42:39
commit sexual assault. And she says that for some
42:42
people, it's just a matter of opportunity.
42:44
You know, she writes that their offences are predatory acts, are
42:47
unplanned and show poor impulse control.
42:50
Sometimes with these people, their actions are quite
42:52
literally a matter of ignorance. You know they weren't educated
42:55
in what consent actually means. They're too busy selfishly
42:57
thinking about themselves to stop and ask what the other
43:00
person wants. They're a product of a
43:02
misogynistic society the perpetuates rape culture and
43:06
their behaviour is not excusable.
43:07
And I do not want to downplay the harm these people do.
43:09
But I feel like at least in those cases, these people can
43:12
sometimes learn, reflect on their behaviour and absolutely
43:15
change for the better. Because they didn't necessarily
43:18
mean to cause harm, even though they did, you know, maybe they
43:21
misread signals or they genuinely made a mistake.
43:24
And while their victim doesn't need to forgive them, like it's
43:27
entirely to them, I do personally believe that like for
43:30
a lot of those people with self reflection and learning and
43:33
growth and genuine remorse, they can be better people and won't
43:37
do it again. You know, and I, I know, I know
43:40
it's going to sound controversial, but hear me out
43:41
here. And I believe that every single
43:43
person accidentally oversteps the boundary at some point in
43:46
their life. We've all accidentally done
43:48
something without consent. And I don't mean sexual here,
43:51
but like, you know, maybe, maybe we've gone in for a hug for
43:54
someone when they didn't want it without realising.
43:57
Maybe we've accidentally shared a friend's secret that they
44:00
didn't want us to tell. Maybe we've made a joke that
44:03
oversteps someone's boundaries. Those are I was making
44:09
accidental mistakes, accidentally of a stepping
44:12
boundaries because we, we weren't socially aware or we
44:15
weren't thinking, we were being selfish.
44:17
And I do believe that those kinds of things are like genuine
44:21
mistakes that everyone makes. And it doesn't necessarily make
44:24
someone inherently a bad person. It's kind of just part of being
44:26
human and part of learning and growing.
44:28
And I think the important thing is that, like in those cases, we
44:33
apologise, we learn and we do better.
44:36
And I kind of feel like for some people, they make those mistakes
44:42
in a sexual way. And it's terrible, it's bad,
44:45
it's awful, it's inexcusable. But I also kind of feel like
44:50
there is potential redemption there for people, if that makes
44:53
sense. And like I say, the victim
44:55
shouldn't have to forgive them if they don't want.
44:57
Like, it's not on them, like they don't have to.
44:59
But I do believe that. But at least when people mess
45:02
up, they can be better, they can do better, they can become
45:05
better. That's not what's happening in
45:07
the Neil Gaiman case. I don't believe this is an
45:10
example of that. He wasn't an opportunistic
45:12
rapist. He wasn't some silly little boy
45:15
who misunderstood or misread a situation.
45:18
He was malicious. However, he is trying to
45:21
downplay this allegations as oh, what a silly mistake.
45:24
I'm just not socially aware. What a silly, awkward man.
45:27
And no, absolutely not. So he has released a statement
45:31
which says as I read through this latest collection of
45:34
accounts, there are moments I half recognise them, moments I
45:36
don't. Descriptions of things that
45:38
happened sitting beside things that emphatically did not
45:40
happen. I'm far from a perfect person
45:43
but I have never engaged in non consensual activity, sexual
45:45
activity with anyone ever. I went back to read the messages
45:48
I exchanged with women around and following the occasions that
45:51
have subsequently been reported as being abusive.
45:54
The messages read now, as they did when I received them, of two
45:56
people enjoying consensual sexual relationships and wanting
45:59
to see one another again. At the time, as in those
46:01
relationships they seemed positive and happy on both
46:04
sides. I also realised looking through
46:06
them years later I could have and should have done so much
46:08
better. I was emotionally unavailable
46:10
while being sexually available, self focused and not as
46:13
thoughtful as I should as I could or should have been.
46:16
I was obviously careless with people's hearts and feelings and
46:19
that's something I deeply regret.
46:21
It was selfish of me. I was caught up in my own story
46:23
and I ignored other people's. I've spent months now taking a
46:26
long hard look at who I've been and how I've made people feel.
46:29
Like most of us, I'm learning and I'm trying to do the work
46:32
needed. I know that's not an overnight
46:34
process. I hope that with the help of
46:36
good people, I'll continue to grow.
46:38
And like, if he'd, I don't know, accidentally gone in for a kiss
46:42
with someone because he misread the signals and he got it wrong.
46:44
This might be acceptable If he'd, you know, taken 1 back to
46:47
his hotel room and they'd engaged in a bit of consensual
46:49
touching and then she tried to stop him, but he'd he'd not
46:52
quite got the message. And then a couple of minutes
46:53
later been like, oh, wait, sorry, oh, no, I overstepped
46:56
there. If he'd done something like
46:58
that, this might be an acceptable response.
47:01
You know, those are genuine mistakes where you may be
47:04
overstep but you didn't mean to, and then you apologise and get
47:07
better and grow like, and this would be an acceptable response
47:09
to that. But that's not what he did.
47:11
None of that is what happened. He wasn't just some silly little
47:14
socially awkward man risk reading signals.
47:17
He didn't just make someone a bit uncomfortable once and he
47:19
can't get away with that. Well, you know, I don't think it
47:22
was a consensual. I guess I'll just do some
47:24
learning. He can't do that.
47:26
This is a case of a 40 to 60 plus year old man repeatedly
47:29
targeting younger and all vulnerable women that he had
47:32
power and control over, repeatedly ignoring their
47:35
literal and verbal pleas for him to stop degrading them,
47:38
objectifying them, assaulting them, injuring them, and being
47:40
entirely aware of what he was doing.
47:42
He often planned in advance how and when he was going to do
47:45
this. He would buy them gifts, offer
47:47
them money and homes, fly them around the world to see him and
47:50
meet him just so he could hurt them.
47:52
This is not one silly little mistake of a socially awkward
47:55
man. This is a manipulative predator
47:57
allegedly repeatedly knowing what he's doing in hurting
48:01
women. If these stories are true and
48:03
accurate, and I thoroughly believe they are, this is a
48:05
pattern of premeditated, aggressive, violent and
48:08
degrading behaviour from a man who, like I say, knew exactly
48:11
what he was doing. His non apology statement is not
48:14
enough and he is a danger to all women.
48:18
To go back to Chanel's book for a moment, and while I don't want
48:21
to deploy definitive labels to anyone, and you know, I'm not
48:24
going to say this is who gaming is, I'm just saying at one point
48:28
in the book she writes about what she calls statistic rapists
48:31
as opposed to the opportunistic ones.
48:33
And I would just say that this could potentially seem like a
48:37
more accurate description of the actions we've heard gay men
48:41
carried out. She writes.
48:44
She writes that sadistic rapists derive pleasure from being
48:46
violent and sexually assaulting someone.
48:48
They've usually been terribly abused as children and are
48:50
likely to re offend regardless of rehabilitation measures.
48:53
It's hard to prevent this type of rapist from perpetuating
48:56
sexual assault. To prevent this type of rapist,
48:58
the generational cycle of abuse must be stopped.
49:00
The Vulture article ends with Scarlett telling the story of
49:02
how she and how she went to Amanda and told her what Neil
49:06
had been doing to her and asked for help and basically got
49:09
absolutely nothing to help her. Just to remind you, Amanda
49:14
Palmer is someone who apparently prides herself on being an
49:16
outspoken feminist who will speak up for women and calls out
49:19
domestic and sexual violence against women, unless apparently
49:22
it's her ex-husband doing it. 10 days after Gaman left New
49:25
Zealand, Pavlovich went to Palmer's house for dinner.
49:27
She asked Palmer if she could tell something in confidence and
49:30
made her promise not to tell Gaman.
49:31
She begged the reassurance that she would still keep her job as
49:34
a child's nanny. Palmer assured Pavlovich her
49:36
employment was not in danger. Sitting in the kitchen,
49:39
Pavlovich told Palmer that gay men had made a pass at her.
49:42
She told Palmer about the bath. I didn't have any choice in the
49:44
matter, she said. He just did it.
49:46
She said he'd been having sex with her ever since she well.
49:49
She withheld some of the most brutal details, but did not
49:52
describe her experience as sexual assault.
49:54
She didn't yet see it that way, which is completely common.
49:56
Sometimes it takes people off process.
49:59
Palmer did not appear to be surprised. 14 women have come to
50:04
me about this, she said. She mentioned that Gaiman had
50:07
slept with another babysitter during his first marriage, and
50:09
that she'd heard from other women who were disturbed by
50:12
their experiences with him. Pavlovich waited until the end
50:16
to tell Palmer about the child being present in Auckland.
50:19
Afterwards, she recalled, Palmer was silent.
50:21
She appeared shocked. Palmer insisted that Pavlovich
50:23
spend the night in her guest room.
50:25
She told her I'd had to do this before and I can do this again.
50:28
I will take care of you. So again, clearly she knew.
50:33
She knew of at least 14 other women.
50:43
Not saying anything, Pavlovich received a text from Text from
50:47
gay men saying. Amanda tells me you're having a
50:49
rough time and you're really upset with me about what we did.
50:51
I feel awful about this. Would you like to talk about it?
50:54
Is there anything I can do to make it better?
50:56
Pavlovich didn't respond immediately.
50:58
My reflex was to my reflex was to fix the situation, she tells
51:03
me. The next day she wrote.
51:05
Hey, we'll speak soon, hope you're doing good.
51:08
Scarlett went on to tell a friend about the experience and
51:11
this one's partner was Chris Taylor, a doctor of psychology
51:15
who had lectured at the University of Auckland on
51:17
coercion, consent and rape. And thank God for these friends.
51:21
Although Pavlovich had never used the word rape or sexual
51:23
assault to describe what happened to her, both Anna Root,
51:26
the friend and Taylor believed gay men had raped her
51:28
repeatedly. Anna, who felt Palmer bore a
51:31
share of the blame. Replying to Palmer, she wrote
51:33
that the majority of my rage is directed at Neil.
51:35
But she couldn't understand why, with all Palmer knew about gay
51:38
men, she'd sent Scarlett into the situation.
51:41
Exactly. Did you not see this coming a
51:43
mile away? She said.
51:45
And yes, I know you asked him not to do that to her, but
51:47
honestly, the fact you even felt some this was something you
51:50
should ask is effed up in ways that defy comprehension.
51:54
Exactly. So at least you had someone
51:56
looking out for her eventually. Meanwhile, Amanda was getting
51:59
gay men to go to therapy with a therapist called Muller and gay
52:04
men used something suddenly therapy sessions to text
52:07
Scarlett and try and manipulate her further.
52:10
So in the session with Muller, Palmer had said that Pablovich
52:13
was telling people he'd raped her and was planning to me, to
52:15
him. I wanted to kill myself, he
52:18
wrote. But I'm getting through it a day
52:20
at a time. It's been 2 weeks now and I'm
52:21
still here. Fragile but not great like he.
52:25
He said that to Scarlett. Like you, you told on me, I want
52:29
to kill myself. Like that's pure manipulation.
52:32
I he expressed dismay a Naru's message, which Palmer had told
52:36
him about. I'm a monster in it, he wrote,
52:39
and Amanda seems to have bought it hook, line, hook line and
52:41
sinker, apologising for bringing any upset into Pablovich's life,
52:45
he wrote. I thought that we were a good
52:47
thing and a very consensual thing indeed.
52:50
So do you see what I mean? This is not like some silly
52:52
little mistake that he's remorseful for and learning
52:56
from. He's manipulating the whole
52:58
situation and actually his therapist is helping him.
53:01
But Scarlett responded to this with fear and began phoning to
53:04
try and make him happy again. Because that's what traumatised
53:07
people do. The therapist, like Neil
53:10
Gaiman's therapist, spoke to the reporter who wrote this article
53:13
and said that he'd also gone out of his way to speak to Scarlett
53:16
too, to try and, like, make everything go away for Neil.
53:19
It. Oh, it's horrific, this this
53:21
person. Mullah, for his part, tells me
53:24
that ethical boundaries prevent him from sharing anything about
53:26
his sessions with gay men. But he apparently felt
53:28
comfortable sharing details of his conversation with Pavlovich
53:31
Scarlett. What she called to speak to me
53:34
about was feeling pressured from very diverse, mostly older women
53:39
in her community to take action that she wasn't sure she felt
53:42
comfortable taking. I accompanied her on her journey
53:45
to help her figure out the answers for herself to that
53:48
issue to read. OK, so basically he's helping
53:52
manipulate Scarlett into downplaying her own experience
53:54
just like Neil was. And I'm oh you know what?
53:57
I'm so sick of men like this. And also Bonnie Blue does as
54:00
well. Bonnie Blue does it who?
54:02
When they're called out for doing something that harms
54:03
people, especially young people, they just start blaming
54:06
everything on older women. Everything is older women's
54:09
fault. It's like, oh these damn older
54:11
women. They immediately try and
54:12
discredit older women because apparently intelligence, self
54:15
assured women with power intimidate them.
54:18
The older women in this story or in the case of Bonnie Blue where
54:21
she's like the people who are mad at me for like, you know,
54:24
cheating on people and spreading as to it's just these older
54:27
women like she did as well. But the these older women are
54:32
just women who are experienced and knowledgeable who are
54:36
finally standing up to misogynists or bad behaviour or
54:39
dangerous behaviour or people taking advantage of young
54:42
people. They're speaking out to try and
54:44
keep young people safe from harm and in response the people who
54:47
are causing that harm are just turning around trying to
54:50
discredit them as just elder women because they want to be
54:53
able to continue to abuse and take an advantage of young
54:56
vulnerable people without anyone calling them out.
54:58
I'm, I'm repeating myself, I'm rambling, it's disgusting is the
55:03
point I'm trying to make. Following all of this, Scots
55:06
mental health suffered, not surprising.
55:09
And Amanda took back her promise of letting her keep her job and
55:12
only offered empty statements Like they can't offer you
55:16
exactly what you want from me, but I can still be here.
55:19
Remember this? Scarlett replied with Babe, I'm
55:23
more alone than I've ever been in my life.
55:26
And she wished she'd never agreed to be their nanny and
55:28
said if I hadn't got on on that first ferry I wouldn't be where
55:31
I am now. The article goes on to say that
55:34
that night Pablovich texted Gayman.
55:36
Amanda keeps saying she'll help me but it seems more
55:38
philosophical rather than she will like she will actually
55:41
help. 2 minutes later she added I've been thinking of you so
55:44
much, Game, and replied that he'd be happy to help in a
55:46
tangible way. Pavlov received an NDA dated to
55:50
the first night of her employment when he'd suggested
55:53
she take a bath, and she signed it a month late as she received
55:57
a bank transfer from GAME and $1700 for her babysitting work,
56:01
which is nothing. Two months after that, she
56:03
received the first of nine payments totalling around $9200.
56:08
So again, he fell back into the just trying to silence his
56:10
victims with an NDA and money. It's disgusting, disgraceful.
56:16
In January 2023, Pavlovich filed a police report accusing Gamer
56:19
of sexual assault. At the station, she gave a
56:21
formal interview about the case. After she told the officers her
56:23
story, one of them told her that Palmer's cooperation would be
56:26
essential for the case to move forward.
56:27
Pavlovich assured them Palmer would participate.
56:30
I said to them, she's a public feminist and she, she knows what
56:33
happened. She'll want to protect me.
56:35
I'm sure she'll speak. When the police contacted Palmer
56:37
later that year, she declined to talk with them.
56:40
Gamer never spoke with the police either.
56:42
So Amanda Palmer, in my opinion, really does not seem to care at
56:46
all. Palmer and gay men together are
56:49
awful, awful people. Obviously gay men is so much
56:51
worse, but they have repeatedly and allegedly taken advantage of
56:56
young women in one way or another and I just find it
56:58
absolutely disgusting. Awful.
57:02
OK, and that's where the article ends.
57:04
That's all we're going to talk about for that for now.
57:06
But if you'd like to read more about the topics of boundaries
57:09
and consent and learn more about it, then I can recommend a few
57:11
books. Some of them I spoke about in
57:13
this video so far. Some of them are new and these
57:16
include Consent Laid Bare by Chanel Contos and UN F Your
57:20
Boundaries Build Better Relationships to consent,
57:22
communication and expressing your needs by Faith Harper good
57:26
sexual citizenship, How to create a sexually safer world by
57:29
Ellen Fredericks and not that bad.
57:31
Dispatches from Rape Culture, which is a series of essays
57:34
edited by Roxanne Gay. And of course, if you have been
57:37
affected by any of the issues in this video and you are looking
57:40
for help or you want to have support organisations which are
57:42
helping other women, then please know you're absolutely not alone
57:45
and there are loads of resources available In the UK you can get
57:48
in touch with the Survivors Trust or Survivors Network.
57:51
There's also Rape Crisis England and Wales who have a 24 hour
57:54
support line. If you're in the USA, then Rain
57:57
that is Rai Double N is a really helpful resource and you can
58:01
also check out the National Sexual Violence Resource Centre.
58:04
Or if you are from Australia or New Zealand, then I provided a
58:08
list or then I provided a link to a list of resources available
58:12
on I Survive, which will take you to different resources for
58:16
individual places and stuff. And they're all in the source
58:19
document below. So please go check them out if
58:21
you need to. You can also read Jill Simmons
58:24
book Consent and memoir, which is fascinating.
58:28
She looks like what the experience was like for her as a
58:31
16 and 17 year old girl, how she reflected on it in her 40s when
58:35
she was still kind of like romanticising a bit.
58:37
And now as a much older woman looking back and be like, oh
58:40
crap, maybe things weren't how I thought they were.
58:43
It's it's fascinating. I still I've thoughts on it.
58:47
I'm not going to it now anyway. Yeah, but that's about all I
58:50
wanted to say today. I'm sorry this was a difficult
58:52
video. I know it's very heavy.
58:53
I know it wasn't very nice, but if you got through it, thank you
58:58
for doing this, sitting through this.
59:00
It'd be great to hear your thoughts in the comments.
59:02
But as always, please just stay respectful and mindful of
59:05
others. Be kind, be nice to each other
59:08
and, and yeah, thank you so much for watching.
59:11
If you'd like to help support me and my channel, I do have
59:14
Patreon where you can go and see like some extra photos and stuff
59:18
that I take like kind of behind the scenes stuff.
59:21
I do a lot of nature photography that I post over on Patreon for
59:24
everyone, plus the photos of Kyra and just kind of my
59:26
day-to-day life. And you can also get exclusive
59:29
stickers and prints and fun stuff like that sent out to you
59:31
over on Patreon. And AD revenue is always tough
59:34
this time of year. So having Patreon is just really
59:36
helpful for making sure I can actually pay my bills and keep
59:39
making videos. So thank you so much for
59:41
everyone who's already supporting me over there and
59:43
thank you to anyone else who may be considering it.
59:45
But for now, honestly, the best thing you can do is just keep
59:48
watching videos, sharing them around, leave a like subscribe
59:51
if you haven't. And just know that I appreciate
59:54
all your support and kindness. So thank you so much.
59:57
I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your day.
59:59
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this and thank you for
1:00:02
taking the time to hear. These wonderful women's stories
1:00:06
and how brave and strong they are.
1:00:07
And yeah, that's I'm, I'm rambling.
1:00:10
Sorry. Thank you for watching.
1:00:12
I'll see you again soon. Bye.