Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #941 When Life Isn't Fair

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#941 When Life Isn't Fair · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for.
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  Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
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  Speaker 1: When I was a university lecturer, we used to do
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: this thing called office hours consultation hours. There was a
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: sign on the door. It said, if you want to
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  Speaker 1: see me, you can see me between this hour and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: this hour. This is one I can answer questions about
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: lecturing and workshops and tutorials and assignments and essays. I
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: kind of feel like every Tuesday it's become office hours,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: it's consultation hours. This is your chance to ask the expert.
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  Speaker 1: Kylie and I have got I think we added up
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  Speaker 1: the other week like one hundred and three hundred and four. Well,
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  Speaker 1: the kids are about to get older that.
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  Speaker 2: We've got to as grandparent hours add up because I reckon,
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  Speaker 2: there's a whole week more in that.
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  Speaker 1: We've got one hundred and five years of cumulative parenting experience.
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  Speaker 1: When you look at the ages of all of our kids,
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  Speaker 1: add them all up. That's what we're doing today. We're
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: sharing our ideas that can help you to make your
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  Speaker 1: family happier. Kylie. We received an email podcast at happy
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: families dot com. You This one comes from Lauren, I've.
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  Speaker 2: Just come across your fabulous podcast and love listening.
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  Speaker 1: I'm just going to interrupt you right there. I love
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  Speaker 1: it when people say that they love our podcast. I
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  Speaker 1: just love that. Thank you, Lauren. Glad that you like listening.
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  Speaker 2: It's always great to have a new listener. My eldest
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  Speaker 2: is eight, and she is always monitoring if everything is fair,
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  Speaker 2: from food to how much we play, to choosing a
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  Speaker 2: game or TV show to watch. We have tried to
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  Speaker 2: explain that sometimes things are not fair and that's okay,
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  Speaker 2: but she has a very strong sense that things are
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  Speaker 2: unfair for her. I was wondering if there is a
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  Speaker 2: better approach than what I am doing, which is explaining
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  Speaker 2: that not everything's fair, and often I have to do
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  Speaker 2: things like cleanup or do things that I don't feel
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  Speaker 2: us fair either. Anyhow, it would be greatly appreciated.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Lauren. Really appreciate, appreciate how much you
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  Speaker 1: love your kids. And it comes across in the way
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  Speaker 1: that you've shared that email with us podcasts at Happyfamilies
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  Speaker 1: dot com dot au. Look, we need to dive into
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  Speaker 1: the developmental playbook here Kylie for a couple of key
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  Speaker 1: ideas on this question.
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  Speaker 2: Before you do that, can I share a little analogy
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  Speaker 2: I saw the other day.
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  Speaker 1: Just about to get on a roll, but go for it.
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  Speaker 1: Let's hear it.
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  Speaker 2: I watched this teacher give a beautiful explanation to her
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  Speaker 2: little preppy class about fairness, and so she asked everybody
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  Speaker 2: she had a box of band aids, and she asked
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  Speaker 2: everybody to put up their hand if that ever hurt
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  Speaker 2: their elbow. And so a few kids put their hands up.
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  Speaker 2: So she said to one of the kids, come up
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  Speaker 2: here and I'll give you a band aid for your elbow.
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  Speaker 2: So she puts a band aid on his elbow and
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  Speaker 2: makes him feel all better, and he sits down, and
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  Speaker 2: she says, has anybody ever hurt their knee? And the kids,
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  Speaker 2: a few kids put their hands up, and she says,
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  Speaker 2: come up here, Freddie, let me give you a band
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  Speaker 2: aid for your elbow. And a few of the kids
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  Speaker 2: start to kind of look at her and go hang
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  Speaker 2: on a sec, but she keeps going with the analogy.
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  Speaker 2: So she puts a band aid on his elbow and
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  Speaker 2: Maxim sit down. She said, has anyone ever had a
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  Speaker 2: sore tummy before? And a few kids put their hands up,
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  Speaker 2: and she says come up here, and I'll give you
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  Speaker 2: a band aid for your elbow. And by this stage
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  Speaker 2: the kids are looking at like she's gone mad. They're like,
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  Speaker 2: but he doesn't need a band aid for his elbow.
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  Speaker 2: He needs one for his tummy. And so then she's
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  Speaker 2: able to explain to them, but if everything needed to
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  Speaker 2: be fair, I gave Johnny a band aid for his.
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  Speaker 1: Elbow, so everybody has to have everybody.
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  Speaker 2: Has to have a band aid. That's the fair thing,
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  Speaker 2: she said. But it's not always fair because you didn't
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  Speaker 2: hurt your elbow. You hurt your knee, or you have
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  Speaker 2: a sore tummy, and it requires a different a different
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  Speaker 2: way to fix it, a different means, and so sometimes
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  Speaker 2: it looks like Johnny's getting something better or something different
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  Speaker 2: to you, and he is because that's what he needs.
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  Speaker 2: So I just loved that analogy, and it was so
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  Speaker 2: visual for these little kids as they were sitting there, going, oh,
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  Speaker 2: that makes sense. I don't need an elbow band aid,
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  Speaker 2: I need one for my knee.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So this ties in not very well at all.
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  Speaker 1: What I was kind to say about moral development and
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  Speaker 1: formal operation thinking and concrete operational thinking and pij and
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  Speaker 1: Swiss psychology and blah blah blah blah. I think that
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  Speaker 1: we can actually pull this together reasonably. Okay, in spite
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  Speaker 1: of it, I want to get into the nitty gritty
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  Speaker 1: of moral development and cognitive development.
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  Speaker 2: For just see, I just keep things light.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're basically sharing a Facebook meme with me, aren't you.
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  Speaker 1: I sure, just straight off Facebook. Okay, let's bring this together.
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  Speaker 1: Picture your daughter's brain as a construction site, and that's
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  Speaker 1: what all brains are. They're literally being developed through what's
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  Speaker 1: happening our experiences, creating perceptions and ideas. But at the
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  Speaker 1: age of eight, we've got a reasonably solid foundation to
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  Speaker 1: build on. And now we're laying the foundation for more
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  Speaker 1: complex thinking skills that are going to land in a
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  Speaker 1: few years time, somewhere around twelve thirteen fourteen. Right now, though, Lauren,
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  Speaker 1: your daughter is in what we call concrete operational thinking mode.
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  Speaker 2: Any think it's really black and white?
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  Speaker 1: Black and white? Yeah, And she's trying to move to
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  Speaker 1: more advanced reasoning. But concrete operational thinking is literally the
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  Speaker 1: cornerstone of the mental edifice that she's going to construct
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  Speaker 1: in years to come. She's great with rules, she likes
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  Speaker 1: what's tangible, be directly observed, like logic rules.
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  Speaker 2: It's so much easier to follow the rules when they're
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  Speaker 2: logical correct.
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  Speaker 1: And this is what makes the concept of fairness fuzzy
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  Speaker 1: because with you, as an adult, you've got this thing
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  Speaker 1: called formal operational thinking. What that means is that you're
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  Speaker 1: aware of context. You're aware of all the stuff that
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the Iceberg analogy. You've got the little
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  Speaker 1: bit above the water and all the stuff underneath. As
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  Speaker 1: an adult with advanced thinking skills, you've got this formal
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  Speaker 1: operational thinking that says, I know that there's stuff underneath
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  Speaker 1: the water, and I'm going to look at what's fair
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  Speaker 1: based on that. So if we go back to your
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  Speaker 1: little story, what's going on here with this teacher doing
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  Speaker 1: this is the kids have got this really black and
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  Speaker 1: white thinking, and what the teacher is doing is she's
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  Speaker 1: essentially magnifying and amplifying it to the point of stupidity.
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  Speaker 1: And the kids, even with their concrete operational thinking, they
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  Speaker 1: can see it. They can see, hang on, logically, this
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  Speaker 1: does not make sense. And the beauty of it is
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  Speaker 1: it's starting to move into abstraction, started to move into
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  Speaker 1: more advanced kinds of thinking. That are typically beyond the
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  Speaker 1: level of a five or a six, or a seven
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  Speaker 1: or an eight year old. So it does actually work here.
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  Speaker 1: What kids generally miss because of the concrete, operational thinking
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  Speaker 1: that they're in is they see things as fair or unfair,
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  Speaker 1: and there is nothing fuzzy about it. They don't have
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  Speaker 1: the same moral compass, the equivalent that we have in
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  Speaker 1: terms that just surface level right and wrong, good and bad,
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  Speaker 1: fair and unfair. That's their perception.
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  Speaker 2: A little while ago, you shared a dilemma with me,
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  Speaker 2: a moral dilemma. It's actually known as the Hinz dilemma.
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  Speaker 1: Right. This is from a moral philosopher or psychologist, Colberg.
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  Speaker 1: Lawrence Colberg, classic stuff.
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  Speaker 2: This is the stuff we talk about in our spare
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  Speaker 2: time people.
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  Speaker 1: Can I share it with you?
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  Speaker 2: No, I'm going to share it.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go.
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  Speaker 2: A woman was on her deathbed. There was one drug
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  Speaker 2: that the doctor said would save her. It was a
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  Speaker 2: form of radium that a druggist in the same town
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  Speaker 2: had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but
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  Speaker 2: the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost
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  Speaker 2: him to produce.
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  Speaker 1: Sounds like all the pharmaceutical helpties I've heard of.
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  Speaker 2: He paid two hundred dollars for the radium, but charged
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  Speaker 2: two thousand dollars for a small dose of the drug.
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  Speaker 2: The sick woman's husband, Hines, went to everyone he knew
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  Speaker 2: to borrow the money, but he could only get together
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  Speaker 2: about one thousand dollars, which was half of what it cost.
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  Speaker 2: He told the druggist that his wife was dying and
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  Speaker 2: asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later,
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  Speaker 2: but the druggist said, no, I discovered the drug and
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to make money from it. So Heinz got
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  Speaker 2: desperate and he broke into the man's laboratory one night
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  Speaker 2: to steal the drug for his wife. So the question is,
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  Speaker 2: should Hines have broken into the laboratory to steal the
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  Speaker 2: drug for his wife? Why? Or why not?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So the Hinds dilemma is basically, if you give
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  Speaker 1: this question to a six to an eight year old,
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  Speaker 1: or even a ten to twelve year old, they're just
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  Speaker 1: starting to form their moral compass. This is really a
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  Speaker 1: question about fairness and equity. Are like, this is such
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  Speaker 1: a great dilemma and hopefully, even as you're hearing this
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  Speaker 1: on the podcast, you're kind of going, Wow, that's really tricky,
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  Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of complexity here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, my mind is going like three different directions all
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  Speaker 2: at once, yeah yeah, and trying to justify each one
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  Speaker 2: of them.
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  Speaker 1: And so the answer that we come up with is
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  Speaker 1: going to be influenced by the values and the principles
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  Speaker 1: that we're exposed to at home and at school and
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  Speaker 1: the media and this obsession with fairness. This is your
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  Speaker 1: daughter's way, Lauren, of testing out her moral muscles and
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  Speaker 1: figuring out what's right and wrong in her eyes. So
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  Speaker 1: when she blows up about fairness, the best thing we
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  Speaker 1: can do is engage her in discussions about fairness and
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  Speaker 1: justice and empathy. Probably not on the spot high emotions
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  Speaker 1: equals low intelligence, but out of the moment, challenged to
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  Speaker 1: think critically and to consider different perspectives. Because development of
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  Speaker 1: moral reasoning is a marathon. It's a marathon, so we
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  Speaker 1: have to start taking steps straightaway.
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  Speaker 2: But that's not the only thing that's going on here,
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  Speaker 2: is it?
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  Speaker 1: Now? I think the I mean, we talked a lot
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  Speaker 1: about theory of mine. That's the other developmental playbook principle
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  Speaker 1: that I would lean on here, mental gymnastics. So I've
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: been doing some research on gymnastics. Lately, I was writing
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: a piece and I got excited about it. I thought,
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  Speaker 1: I what the hardest gymnastics move is in the world,
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  Speaker 1: and I found this YouTube of the top ten most
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  Speaker 1: difficult gymnastics moves. There's one that's called the Yuchenko double pike.
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  Speaker 1: It was named after someone called Yuchenko.
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  Speaker 2: I was about to say, how do you come up
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  Speaker 2: with a name like that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, u Chenko double pike. Now I watched this. Simone
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  Speaker 1: Biles Samobiles is literally the only female gymnast in the
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  Speaker 1: history of the planet to pull off the Yuchenko double pike.
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  Speaker 1: It's usually a male gymnast move, and even then most
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  Speaker 1: of them won't try it. Now, the reason that I'm
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  Speaker 1: talking about the Yuchenko double pike is because the mental
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  Speaker 1: gymnastics see what I've done. They're the linkage, the mental
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  Speaker 1: gymnastics that are required to understand that other people have
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  Speaker 1: their own thoughts and feelings and perspectives separate from our own.
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  Speaker 2: And they could be so different, like so different.
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  Speaker 1: For an eight year old, it's the equivalent of the
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  Speaker 1: mental psychological equivalent of a Yuchenko double pike. Not very
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  Speaker 1: many eight year olds on the planet can really get
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  Speaker 1: the head around the reality that what's going on in
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  Speaker 1: their head is not the same as what's going on
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  Speaker 1: in the minds of other people. Certainly, no five and
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  Speaker 1: six year olds can. They start to develop it around
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  Speaker 1: that age. So when she's obsessing over fairness, it's not
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  Speaker 1: just about her being self centered and me, me me.
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  Speaker 1: It's a crucial step in her cognitive development. This is
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  Speaker 1: one little kids struggle to share because they think what's
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  Speaker 1: fair is that I get what I want. That's their
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  Speaker 1: idea of fairness. And this moral development go back to
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  Speaker 1: Coldberg in the Heines dilemma and this theory of mind.
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  Speaker 1: As they start to kind of coagulate and build up
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  Speaker 1: in the brain, we've got that foundation, and now we're
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  Speaker 1: really putting the framework up for advanced reasoning and morality
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  Speaker 1: and thinking and cognition in adulthood. She's going through that
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  Speaker 1: building phase right now. It's a mess. And this is
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  Speaker 1: why we need to cut U some slack and use
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  Speaker 1: these moments to burgeon or sorry, to nurture her burgeoning
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  Speaker 1: theory of mind and moral reasoning and development.
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  Speaker 2: So this conversation is just so important. This changes, literally,
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  Speaker 2: this changes for us as parents, Our perspective on where
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  Speaker 2: our children are at. It allows us to exercise those
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  Speaker 2: compassionate muscles that sometimes get lost in everyday life, because
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: all we see is a kid who just wants it
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  Speaker 2: their way. This is just beautiful. I love I love
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  Speaker 2: how this this offers me as a parent so much
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  Speaker 2: scope to actually understand where my child's at and why
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  Speaker 2: they are the way they are right now.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm going to share three quick ideas in like
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  Speaker 1: sixty seconds to sort of wrap this up about what
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: we can do about this. Okay, because knowing the developmental
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  Speaker 1: reality doesn't stop the fact that it's just a real
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  Speaker 1: pain of the bump and the kids like it's not firs. Well,
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  Speaker 1: I don't only e forget like it's just it's hard.
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  Speaker 1: Even if you know that they don't have the developmental capacity,
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  Speaker 1: it's still really hard. So three quickly is number one.
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  Speaker 1: I think all we've got to do is genuinely embrace
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  Speaker 1: it as a learning opportunity. So fundamentally, fairness is like
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  Speaker 1: a It's a foundational concept that kids start grappling with
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  Speaker 1: really early on. And her fixation on fairness isn't just
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  Speaker 1: about getting her away, it's about understanding her place in
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  Speaker 1: the world. So we've got to use these as an
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  Speaker 1: opportunity to explore and explain and empower with her. Go
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  Speaker 1: through those three e's, embrace it as a learning opportunity.
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  Speaker 1: Just don't do it when emotions are high.
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  Speaker 2: I think you can have lots of fun with this.
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  Speaker 2: When you and I first met, you would take me
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  Speaker 2: through a whole heap of hypothetical questions, and we would
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  Speaker 2: have so much fun exploring what we might do when
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: we were parents and we had a child who did
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: X or Y, or what we would do if we
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: found ourselves in a shopping center and somebody was stealing something.
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  Speaker 2: Or you just talked to me about all kinds of
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  Speaker 2: different moral dilemmas that we might be faced with as adults.
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  Speaker 2: We can do this with our kids and have so
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  Speaker 2: much fun with it. Make it fun so it doesn't
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  Speaker 2: feel like it's a lecture. But start to help them
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  Speaker 2: see different perspectives. And I was just thinking about as
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: you were talking. I go to the doctors and sometimes
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  Speaker 2: I sit there and I get a little bit frustrated
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  Speaker 2: because I could be waiting for my fifteen minute consult
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  Speaker 2: for an hour, the doctor has seen a whole heap
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  Speaker 2: of people and I'm watching the clock, and I know
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  Speaker 2: that the person before me has not been in there
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: for fifteen minutes, like I'm going to be given, he's
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: been in there for forty minutes. But if I was
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  Speaker 2: to think about that from a fairness point of view,
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  Speaker 2: I'd get really really upset. But I know that there
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: are times where I have gone to the doctor and
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  Speaker 2: I've been the person who's needed that forty minutes.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you might have someone in here who's just
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: found out they've got a cancer diagnosis.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: But I've gone with a paper cut, very but very
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: different needs. And so having those kinds of conversations with
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  Speaker 2: your true children outside of the moment that are completely
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: outside of the box for them is a really powerful
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  Speaker 2: way for them to start to develop a sense of fairness,
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  Speaker 2: a sense of their where their moral compass is, and
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  Speaker 2: also empathy.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Let me share those two additional things to make up
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: the three things that I said I was going to
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: share really quickly. The first of those extra two is
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: we've got to have really clear expectations with our kids
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: around what fairness is and what it is and what
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  Speaker 1: we're going to do about fairness. I actually say to
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  Speaker 1: our kids pretty consistently, it's not fair. I'm not trying
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: to be fair. I'm dealing with what needs to be
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: dealt with right here, right now, in the moment, and
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: over time everything's going to work out okay, and even
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: if it doesn't, that's okay as well. Like life isn't fair.
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  Speaker 1: I think that if you bend over backwards try to
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  Speaker 1: make everything fair and your eight year old's eyes, you're
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: setting yourself up for a world of pain. It's not
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: realistic because it's really all about her. I think though,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: that you can do it with a whole lot of empathy.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: So those statements where you give them in fantasy what
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: they can't have in reality, don't you just wish wouldn't
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: it be great? That's where I'd be heading there. Thing is,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: kids are sponges lead by example. They absolve absolutely everything
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: from their parents. So the way that you respond to
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: things that aren't fair in the world, whether you respond
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: with grace, whether you respond with compromise, and sometimes when
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: you just roll with the punches and accept your life
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  Speaker 1: isn't fair. But sometimes we all just have to grieve
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: what we can't have and then move on and helping
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  Speaker 1: the kids to see that life isn't fair for us.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Sometimes there's grown ups as well, and that's just what
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: it is. What we're really doing there is where we're
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: letting the kids know that life can be difficult for everybody,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: and resilient people recognize the unfairness of it all and
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: make their own luck, They make their own goodness, They
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: go up and make a positive contribution. So that, I reckon, Lauren,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: is how we deal with the unfairness problem with our kids.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Well, if I was going to wrap everything up into
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: a nice, little perfect package like a beautiful bow, going too, yes,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: I think the thing that stands out to me the
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: most is helping our children learn to trust that there's enough.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: It's that abundance mentality that says, regardless of what it
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: feels like right now, trusting that Mummy has enough love
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: to give to you when you need it and to
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: your sister when she needs it. That there's enough food,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: that even though it looks like somebody else is getting
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: more than you, that you will have enough for your needs.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: It's trusting that there's enough toys, that there's enough attension,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: that there's enough care, that there are enough friends and
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: people in the world who love and adore you. It's
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: just helping them to trust that there's enough. That abundance
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: mentality makes all the difference.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I think you talked more than me today on the podcast.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's fair really. That Happy Family's
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Greg
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Bruce is our executive producer. No, I don't actually have
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: a clue, but I thought it was going to be
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: really funny to say it. If you'd like more information
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: about making your family happy, we'd love for you to
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: visit us Happy families dot com dot you check out
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: our socials. We're on TikTok, Facebook and Instagram and Hey Tomorrow.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: On the podcast, we're talking with Professor Brad Wilcox, he's
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: a sociologist from the University of Junior, about his brand
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: new book called Get Married. Controversial and provocative and very
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: interesting