Latest / Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas / What is it like to love men? ft. Anish Gawande

Transcript

What is it like to love men? ft. Anish Gawande · Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas

0:04
I'm Lisa Mangeldas, and this is love Matters. What's it like to be
0:08
sexually and romantically involved with men? Me? And that's by heterosexual woman and
0:13
my guests, an out and proud gay man, are going to be comparing
0:17
notes today on what it's like to love men. Anishkawande is a man of
0:23
many talents. He's a writer, a translator, the director of the Darashiku
0:28
Fellowship, an interdisciplinary arts residency, the founder of pink List India, which
0:32
is India's first archive of politicians or supportive of LGBTQ plus rights. He's a
0:38
Rhodes Scholar. He studied intellectual history and public policy at Oxford with certified public
0:45
intellectual exactly one of the most eligible eligible young men I know. So anis,
0:51
thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me,
0:54
Lisa. So excited to finally meet you in person. I know and
0:57
I have this conversation that is going to be comparing me that we should have
1:00
been doing a long time ago, Internet friends for too long. It's so
1:03
nice to finally meet well. To me, one of the first things that
1:07
strikes me that might have been a bit different when it comes to loving men,
1:10
is that as a straight woman, it was assumed that that is who
1:12
I'm going to love, whereas perhaps for you had to kind of tread tenderly
1:19
around even asserting that you love men at first, right, And I read
1:22
in an interview where you said that because you have a political ambitions, you
1:26
had to think about the cast that that absolutely might bear right coming out.
1:32
So what was that like for you before we dive in? Just because I'm
1:34
such a fan of your work as well, thank you very much, like
1:37
you're taking up old interviews. But you know, I think it's true that
1:41
when you're queer, you know that you're queer long before you come out.
1:46
So I think I knew I was gay from when I was in the fifth
1:49
Standard, And I think what was really difficult was knowing that you're gay and
1:53
knowing that it doesn't augur well for any ambitions that you have in other aspects
1:59
of your life. I was always very keen to work in politics or be
2:01
a diplomat, or work in the ies, and to me, it was
2:05
just impossible that the two could coexist. So for the longest time, I
2:08
was very aware that I was gay, but I was also so convinced that
2:13
it would like completely hamper any aspirations that I had. That I stayed in
2:17
the closet voluntarily, and this reached a point of almost comic magnitudes when I
2:23
moved to New York City and I was in college in New York City and
2:27
arguably the most queer friendly place on this planet, and I was still in
2:31
the closet and it took a while. There's a long story behind that.
2:36
But when I did come out for the longest time, I said that I
2:38
have to choose one over the other. So when I came out, I
2:40
said, well, I'm not coming back to India. I'm going to stay
2:43
on in New York City. Until I got a phone call right before I
2:46
graduated from Millendeira, who volunteered with who, said come run my campaign And
2:53
I said, but I'm in New York City and I'm gay, and he
2:55
said so, so I said okay, and that was it. So you
2:59
know, I think those are considerations that are hard, but it's that initial
3:02
hoop of knowing what is important to you that makes the difference. And after
3:07
that it's not smooth sailing, but it does get better, and you are
3:10
being the change, as it were. I love you, in your queer
3:15
up, Lisa, you know, honestly, you're seeing this outfit for what
3:19
it is, but below it is my Nataja costume because this is what I
3:23
wear day in, day out, and the jacket gets added on and I
3:24
have to make fancy, fabulous people like you to do these wonderful podcasts,
3:29
so you queer your workplace little by little. I see the socks. I
3:32
yeah, because there's a story. Right. So when I came back to
3:37
India after four years in the US, I was thrown straight into the wilderness
3:42
to work with the Maharasha Congress and the Jena Sangarshatra and I had to go
3:46
to itchl Kanji, to Pathirdy, to parts of the state that I'd never
3:49
been to before. And my biggest concern was I didn't have a wardrobe.
3:52
I said, what do I wear? And so I was like, you
3:53
know, I can't wear the starched white ka those pants and like rubber flip
3:59
flops and like. So I was like okay, and no, I need
4:00
to do something. So there was this little gurta which is slightly translucent.
4:03
Here there are colorful socks that were brown ox burds in a briefcase and it
4:08
became quite fun and initially eyebrowser raise. But I think my biggest picture was
4:13
when a politician on the campaign tailed would been a bit nasty in the beginning
4:16
towards the end, was like, can you give me a tailor's number?
4:19
And I was like, you know what, you know what here you I
4:24
love it. You have fun. It's not easy. Thank you for sharing
4:28
that. Okay, let's get into the juicy stuff, since we are here
4:30
to compare notes on what it's like to love men. You know, as
4:34
a heterosexual woman, there's a lot of contradiction to the fact that you love
4:39
men. You love this group that has historically and systemically oppressed you. You
4:43
know, there's so much misogyny built into heterosexuality that I think for a lot
4:47
of women there's like a dissonance, like I love this person, and yet
4:51
what he represents is everything that stood in my way, and that still makes
4:55
me feel small, and it still conditions how I'm expected to behave right is
5:00
coded into heterosexuality. Misogyny is coded into heterosexuality, and I wonder whether to
5:06
some extent heterosexuality is the default also codes roles within queer relationships, just because
5:14
it's so pervasive, you know, like there's this idea that even women see
5:16
themselves through the male gaze. Yeah, do you think that queer people to
5:19
some extent are still having to kind of model gender roles the way heterosexual couples
5:27
do, Whether it's like a more dominant person and a more submissive person,
5:30
and you know, someone who's more in charge of let's say, finances versus
5:33
the home, or they tend to be very rigid amongst men and women.
5:36
You know, it's really interesting that you asked that because one queer theory borrows
5:42
a lot from black feminist theory on this matter, in particularly because this is
5:45
the question black women in America face after emancipation. How can you willingly love
5:50
somebody who's oppressed you? And there's a lot of phenomenal literature on the issue,
5:55
which I think then leads into queer theory about what do you do in
5:59
the sort of dynamics where you are in a relationship that is queer, but
6:05
you are in an environment that is so pervasively heteronometic. Right, So do
6:10
you then start seeing yourself as you said, in those lenses? For one,
6:15
I think you are very aware of the fact that you are also dating
6:19
your oppress as a queer person, especially as a gay man, right because
6:23
you have been bullied by men before, You've been through that sort of toxic
6:28
masculinity that forces you into the closet, and you're now sort of opening after
6:32
the idea of dating men who come with all of that baggage. Sometimes I
6:38
tell someone that, you know, I fully resonate when women say I hate
6:42
all men, because I said, yes, all men are trash. And
6:46
then someone's like, but you're a man. I said, yes, I
6:47
hate myself that you established a long time ago. But you know, in
6:51
a more fun way, I think it's true. You have to learn how
6:54
to navigate those settings differently. What is the advantage with queerness, though,
6:59
is that you get have fun while doing it, so you get to like
7:01
break these stereotypes because you know the exists in the first place, or you
7:06
know there are friends of mine who lean into them. They say, you
7:09
know what, I actually like this. I want somebody to be like the
7:13
person taking care of the house and taking care of like who is going to
7:16
decide what is getting cooked tonight? And I want to be the one doing
7:19
the more practical aspects and the best part is you can confuse people because that
7:24
might not correlate ad all to what you do in bed with each other,
7:26
and so you get to have that sort of like dynamic. It's nice when
7:30
there's a deliberateness and choice right to who gets to play one role as opposed
7:33
to it being enforced, which is so often the case unfortunately in heterosexual relationships,
7:40
where there's prescribed roles and you must follow those roles. So the question
7:44
of disrupting them is it doesn't even arise. You know, you're the good
7:47
wife who stays at home and he's the good husband who goes to work.
7:50
And it's like, so if you disrupt that model, there's something deviant.
7:56
I really think we should queer heterosexuality as well. Absolutely, and I do
8:01
you know it goes beyond the couple, right, so you know it's so
8:03
funny. I've just redone my bathroom, which has been a three month long
8:07
project, which has truly been If anyone asked me what have you been doing
8:09
in DELI, I'm like, I've been redoing my bathroom. I was in
8:11
Oaklay yesterday buying stone and oaklass like far. But now that has all been
8:16
redone. It's got a lot of shells and spaces that need to be filled
8:20
with stuff. I have no idea how to organize anything. And so I
8:22
have a former lover who's now become a very dear friend who's coming to town
8:28
on Monday, and I was like, listen, how good are you organizing
8:30
things? It's like you're pretty good. I was like, okay, Like
8:33
Monday, you're like spending three hours organizing this closet. I love it.
8:37
So how do you also queer sort of the idea of love, of the
8:41
idea of relationships to a way where you're like, you know, we're going
8:45
to create families of choice. We're going to create chosen families that do the
8:48
work because you're not competent at doing that work. It is wonderful if we
8:52
can create structures of support and rely on people we've loved, right. I
8:56
think another really unfortunate aspect of how heterosexual couples tend to view love is one
9:01
at a time, and then you have to like and then this is the
9:05
worst person ever, Like, don't talk to your egg. You know,
9:07
if someone if it doesn't work out, that person must be set aside and
9:11
forgotten and or even worse, exacted revenge upon or you know, have this
9:15
division of the friend group, this idea of like fidelity, monogamy, possessiveness,
9:20
And then I think, you know, being really bad with the dealing
9:24
with rejection or heartbreak as opposed to thinking of the opportunity you have here where
9:28
you loved each other. That's a special role to play in someone's life,
9:31
and why not treasure this person even if they don't fit into your life as
9:35
a lover anymore. I love that you mentioned an XT, But do you
9:37
think perhaps gay men have figured that out a bit better than straight men?
9:41
No? No, I think most gay men have figured it out. I
9:43
think the rest of the quick community that's far better than the game men,
9:46
who sort of I think are the last bashians or primary bashions of heteronomativity,
9:52
seem to be getting married. I'm like, who is there to marry?
9:54
First? Find them married? And who am I going to marry even if
9:56
I could marry? So I think there's a way in which you adopt these
10:01
roles almost unknowingly right. I think I've had the privilege of having friends,
10:05
of having mentors, of having professors who have helped me sort of unpack these
10:11
things, and they haven't happened altogether, right. It's not like I came
10:13
out and suddenly I've broken for you from the shackles of heteronomativity or even toxic
10:18
masculinity. I think it's a process of unlearning that continues, which is why
10:22
for me, I think I'm a big believer in something called radical complicity.
10:26
I think for me, it's been really useful to acknowledge that the ways I
10:30
think, the ways I act are already deeply flawed, and to acknowledge them
10:33
as such and work on them, and not to say that that radical complicity
10:37
is a way of saying that I take no responsibility for my actions, or
10:41
for my prejudices or for my biases, but to acknowledge that I come with
10:45
them and they're not an indicator of my own value of my work, and
10:48
that they are a product of how I've been shaped, and now I have
10:50
to go beyond them. And if I have multiple chances of doing that when
10:52
someone's pointed it out, then that's a problem. But until then, knowing
10:58
that this is a journe that I still have nots of sort of heteronomative associations
11:03
about like what a relationship should look like, et cetera, et cetera,
11:05
and so do many others. But sometimes having that conversation is the first step
11:09
to being like, this doesn't really make sense. And once you reach that
11:13
point, I think it's easy to go beyond and invent and imagine and what
11:18
do you imagine? What I imagine? So I told this to somebody.
11:22
I was like, given that I travel so much right now, I said,
11:26
you must go back to traditional seafarer notions. And I want to madden
11:31
every port. So I want to be like I want to mad every pot.
11:35
And it's just like sort of like like this little wave like moves around
11:39
and is a lover everywhere, and all the lover is equal because I only
11:41
spend so much time with each of them. Then nobody's asking you, like
11:45
why haven't you returned my calls? Because my gime is out at sea,
11:48
I can't respond to phone calls. So my thing is like, how does
11:50
one create a relationship where I'm perfectly okay with not talking to you for three
11:54
months? And would you be okay I'm fully okay because I've forgotten you for
11:58
three months if I'm doing something more important, what if you're not doing something
12:01
important? In that there I'll be with you know what, if they're busy,
12:05
then that's a problem. That's why a man in every port because then
12:07
when you're there only for three days, everyone makes time for you, which
12:11
is why I also love I live in Telly now and I'm from Bombay,
12:13
and I love going back to Bombay now because I feel so important. Yeah,
12:18
because I'm there for three days and everyone's like, we must feed,
12:20
we must meet, and they'll clear out their schedules for me, and I
12:22
love that. What about living together? You know, this is this is
12:26
my most controversial heart take. I have always been tamed that I can never
12:30
live with the party because my kitchen and my living room are secret spaces.
12:35
So it's not that I want different bedrooms. In fact, I would much
12:37
rather be sleep in the same bedroom but kick them out in the morning,
12:39
but but open out into different parts of the house. You know. You
12:45
know, people have shared bathrooms between two bedrooms and much rather have a shared
12:48
bedroom with a separate living room and kitchen on one side and separate living room
12:52
in kitchen on the outside. So a model of kinship with living together does
12:54
not have to be how families are structured. We're sleeping together does not have
12:58
to mean living together, want to sleep with you, both in a literal
13:03
sense and physical yarn. But I do not want like to be coexisting all
13:09
day in the sex. I want to then go to my living room couch
13:13
and watch it and you can come there. So we need very big houses
13:16
basically, know, it's the same size houses. People are three bedroom houses.
13:20
I'm seeing one bedroom house, but two living rooms and two kitchens.
13:22
That's all. So let's talk about where we meet people. I think that
13:28
the gay bar has this sort of like iconic place in the cultural construction of
13:33
I feel like how gay relationships form and stuff and portunally for women, there's
13:37
a lot of trepidation around like meeting a new man, because your safety is
13:41
something you're so overwhelmingly conscious of. So it's something that I wish was more
13:46
joyful, but it's often something that's layered with fear. Is that something that
13:50
you experienced as well? Or would you say that sites are particularly you know,
13:54
locations that do mark themselves out as queer spaces some of that fear,
14:01
you know. I think in many ways the gay bar is a site of
14:05
sort of radical possibility, right because in most spaces it exists as an oasis
14:11
of calm amid's all of the chaos around you. So one of my favorite
14:16
TV shows in the world is Queer Aspoke, the American version, because everyone
14:18
is pretty there, but this is club called Babylon, and everyone's there and
14:24
it's like sitty, it's like hot, and it's like amazing. And everyone
14:30
then goes back to their normal lives where queerness is being discriminated against, where
14:35
the ads crisis on the horizon, where your workplace can't know that you're gay.
14:41
And I think the gay bar acquires that sort of mythic resonance because it
14:45
becomes almost this sanctuary. I don't know if it holds that same connotation in
14:50
many parts of the world today. I think Delhi I really enjoy because there
14:52
is a gay bar here deeper forty eight that's quite lovely. New York I
14:56
don't think so anymore. I think the gay bar sort of in a story
15:00
everywhere as a gay bar, right, and then you sort of wonder what
15:03
does that mean? And it's particularly hard because you know what that means for
15:07
you back in India, and so coming out to me in New York was
15:09
harder than coming out in India because in many ways everyone had already come out
15:13
in New York, so I didn't have anyone to look up to and be
15:16
like, oh, like, let's compare notes and be like, what have
15:20
you struggle with? Particularly because I was at a private university in New York
15:24
City. You know, those are sort of demographics that are different, Whereas
15:26
in India had so many amazing mentors, particularly older men gay men, who
15:31
sort of were like, you know, this is how you come out to
15:33
your parents. You know, this is how you like navigate friendships. And
15:37
so the gay bar as a space for meeting people acquires that mythic resonance where
15:41
things are really difficult in other spaces. With the advent of apps, I
15:46
think the gay bar has become a more sanitized space. It's a space where
15:52
you go to socialize, but not necessarily as the only place that you go
15:54
to meet people. When it comes to its own problems. Ah, So
15:56
I think the gay bar is of wonderful, but it's also a place of
16:02
immense platphobia. It's a space sometimes and very often in a theemphobia. It's
16:07
a space where there are cliques based on cast, on class, based on
16:11
religion. And so I think you have different problems, but certainly a feeling
16:15
of more safety than you would at a straight bar, particularly as a SIS
16:18
woman. And do you think that that apps also take with them some of
16:22
these sort of social prejudices or biases. So this is what right I think
16:29
the challenge is, and this is why I make the distinction between being gay
16:33
or lesbian, are bisexual, or trance and being queer. Right, I
16:37
think queerness comes with in ethical and ideological commitment to argue against all forms of
16:42
oppressure. Being gay doesn't, and you're not expected to be queer. I
16:45
think it's a journey that I would most certainly prefer everyone goes on and like
16:51
towards a destination that we would all like to achieve, which is a more
16:53
equal and just world. But when you're gay, or you're lesbiana, are
16:56
bisexual, or your transition, you're coming with all the prejudices that come with
17:00
other parts of your identity. You're coming with prejudice along the caste, class,
17:04
religion, race, ethnicity, and you bring those to these spaces as
17:08
well. And it's a process of unlearning that involves sometimes being quite direct about
17:15
certain forms of behavior not being allowed. For example, apps need to do
17:19
better at not allowing racist messaging in your bio, for example, and that
17:25
should be policed, but desires such a difficult thing to police. Otherwise,
17:29
what are you going to do when someone doesn't respond to your message on an
17:32
app? It's not very evident, but you know that it's because you're black
17:36
in the US or because you come from a different cast background in there.
17:40
Yeah, I mean even mentioned body positive body a certain I suppose predisposition for
17:45
a very usually thin bodied, eurocentric looking sort of ideal. Unfortunately, seems
17:52
to also be something that on the apps becomes So you're looking at pictures,
17:56
you know, what are you swiping on? Is it really just preference?
18:00
Are there factors at play that condition who you are tought to see as desirable?
18:06
I think women feel a lot of pressure to look a certain way,
18:07
right, or at least within heterosexual dynamics, that tends to be the idea
18:11
that the woman must put in the effort to look a certain way because a
18:15
woman, that's part of what gives her value, right, a woman must
18:19
be beautiful and a man must be rich. These are like the Unseid codes
18:23
of desirability and how it's constructed in heterosexual dynamics, and I wonder whether some
18:29
of that is also present, like we take on both. Yeah, you
18:33
have it, so you have to be both. And that's a big problem,
18:37
right. I think body positivity is very difficult within the gay community because
18:44
so much of the content that you consume is so sort of that gobic,
18:48
right, and there is an image of the ideal like male body that is
18:52
pervasive, and people have these preferences that reflect upon the apps but also in
18:59
other engage and listen. This is this is a self reflexive process. I
19:03
have to think about this wild swiping, right, These are not prejudices that
19:06
are not inherent in me. It's not it's very difficult to point fingers.
19:10
And this is very complicity. It's radical complicity because you know, I know
19:14
myself making these decisions when I'm swiping on Tinder, and then I have to
19:18
sit back and be like, okay, like what does this mean? And
19:19
many times that's involved me saying that you know, actually, maybe that means
19:22
not going on the apps, because I see myself doing that a lot more
19:26
on the apps than if I met somebody in person, because I'm so tuned,
19:30
like because I'm making a decision in thirty seconds, right, not even
19:33
a few seconds. Yeah, I don't have actually used an app. No,
19:37
I've never used app. I've only met the people I've been with in
19:40
real life, but all that you have been with on apps. But you
19:44
know, this is also where it's not that all apps are bad. I
19:47
remember when I was on Grinder in India when I just come back for the
19:51
first time after coming out, and I was like, oh my god,
19:52
like if I put my picture on there, it's gonna be on the front
19:56
page of the Times of India Mcgallu maniac from that type of love it.
20:00
I was like, oh my god, what is going to happen? Et
20:02
cetera. But I went on the apps and on the free version you could
20:04
reach the end of the city. It's like ten years not even ten years
20:07
ago. And it was really sweet because it almost became like a community space
20:11
where the first boy I ever dated I met through Grinder and we went on
20:15
a day where we sat on marine drive and like looked at the moon,
20:18
you know, which is impossible to think of now. I think that's now
20:22
too many. Right now, there's a very set rule for the app,
20:25
and you're probably meaning for a hookup. But other worlds are possible, that
20:29
these apps can be generitive spaces, but we have to reimagine them, and
20:33
I think it's hard work. It's not easy your condition to use it a
20:36
certain way. You're also busy, you want certain things in life. But
20:41
yeah, I meeting in person. I wish there were more spaces for that.
20:45
Yeah, I mean, I guess I came of age at a pre
20:47
app time. I'm thirty three. I guess is that young or very funny?
20:51
Yeah? Is it? But I don't know ten years younger, twenty
20:55
seven? Sorry? Thank you? Yes, you about me to be so
21:00
Yeah, I feel like back when I would also been in a long relationship
21:04
in all sorts of places. Now you have to share. I've shared so
21:08
much you can't give. I am an interviewer. You were interviewing. What
21:15
is it called comparing notes? I have met. I met a lawyer at
21:19
a police station. Anyway, this is really not about my life. You
21:25
don't half the people I know our relationships currently met them at protests. Yes,
21:30
that's like you never thought of it that way. But it's a lawyer
21:32
police station. I met my current path I was. I have been a
21:36
TV presenter before starting all of my online content. And so one of the
21:41
people I met with someone I met I was interviewing, I mean, I
21:42
mean interesting people. Is that I'm sad podcast and in express please note give
21:51
lots of records. It was not I've got lots of guests. This is
21:55
how I find my next partner. You're making me look bad for you,
21:59
but I'm saying I want to do it with you. Do your public,
22:02
intellectual public into these I love how you've turned love matters into coffee with Karen.
22:06
I'm here anyway, you only said that we as. The reason that
22:14
I am here is because Lisa has promised this will help me find somebody,
22:18
because I am very single. So this is in pursuit of that, because
22:21
otherwise all these series especially, it's hard to believe that you are not a
22:23
man with many many suggests that you know, I find it very hard to
22:27
believe just what to do such as life. Okay, well, you know,
22:37
speaking off though, I feel like as a woman, unfortunately, one
22:41
of the struggles I've had is that I've always had to downplay how much I
22:45
enjoy my sexuality because bad girls like sex, bad girls court men, bad
22:49
girls have multiple partners. You know what I mean, to just be at
22:52
ease in your sexuality in your body, do want to have fun, to
22:55
see it as fun. It's almost sort of a transgression around the cod of
23:00
what it means to be a good woman. And I think so many people
23:03
do not have the luxury to publicly transgress those codes, even if they wanted
23:07
to, because the stakes are just too high. You know. It means
23:11
losing your emotional, financial, and various other forms of structure, stability,
23:15
support in your life. For many women, right to even just admit to
23:19
liking sex, or to have sex outside of marriage, or to wear something,
23:23
you know, wear a bikini or not even just wear whatever you like
23:26
because you want to and that's what makes you feel good, you know,
23:30
with at so many levels such a process of downplaying, a masking, disguising
23:37
anything to do with your sexuality as a woman, you know. And I
23:40
wonder whether hopefully, I mean, I'm sure it's difficult being a gay person
23:45
in homophobic country or world. Yeah, world, there's many, many struggles.
23:49
But do you think that within the ecosystem of fellow gay men at least
23:55
is there a greater acceptance and tolerance and just normalcy around like being you know,
24:02
let's say, challenging the idea of monogamy or the idea of like virtue
24:06
in some sort of single partnership equation. I just think more expressive and free
24:11
with sexuality. Is that a stereotych that doesn't I would have hoped so,
24:15
But I think again, right, Like I think it depends that gay men
24:18
will have a very different if you had to take a survey of gay men,
24:22
you would get a very different answer if you had to take a survey
24:23
of like queer women or transmen or trans women, because these are sort of
24:29
communities that are subcultures of their own that come with the same amount of baggage.
24:33
Right. So again, like I mentioned, queers Folk is a very
24:37
common show that a lot of people my age watch growing up or slightly older
24:41
than me as well, which means there's a generation of gay men for whom
24:44
sort of sexual liberation is integral to their gay identity. So, you know,
24:48
this idea of like settling down with only one person and being in a
24:52
monogamous, committed relationship with no other partners is alien to them. But that's
24:56
not the case for a lot of other gay men who come with a very
24:59
different of cultural background to queerness or to their gayness or to their gay identity.
25:03
So I think it really depends upon what you were socialized on, and
25:07
I think that's also what makes it so much harder, because these are all
25:11
roles that you are inventing for yourself and norms that you're creating for yourself,
25:15
which means that it's very hard to find somebody who's norms are the same as
25:18
yours, and very hard to then also be on the same wavelength. The
25:22
good part is that you got to have conversations around those issues. But on
25:26
the policing of desire, I think we're witnessing a fairly sort of concerning re
25:33
emergence of this policing of desire, right. I think the past few years
25:37
have been ones where we've been able to get comfortable with the idea of,
25:40
say like a living relationship, or with the idea of sex before marriage,
25:44
or with the idea of having a boyfriend or a girlfriend. And it's in
25:47
our mainstream discourse, it's been in Bollywood, it's been in the popular media,
25:51
and you're seeing, and I very very much so, a sort of
25:56
return to a form of conservatism that is far more dangerous that knows the other
26:00
side and still chooses to enforce a certain moral code on others. And I
26:04
think you're seeing that across sexuality. I think you're seeing that as a geography,
26:10
across geography. It's not just India, right, this is sort of
26:12
I mean Internet culture is tad culture, you know, like proudly dad.
26:17
There's really concerning developments again, right, I can't police this. I can't
26:21
tell you that what you're doing is wrong, and I can't put you in
26:25
jail for it. I have to convince you otherwise. And I think the
26:27
job of so many of us is to emphasize that having multiple sexual partners,
26:33
or having sex before marriage, or not being monogamous isn't about having more fun.
26:38
It's about really shaking the foundations of a system that actually hurts you.
26:44
Right, It's about like realizing, for yourself more than for anybody else,
26:48
that it doesn't fit what you want with your life. And I think that's
26:52
where you get to a point where you say that you're very welcome to be
26:56
monogamous, like do not mind monogamy, also welcome to not be monogamous.
27:00
And that's a choice for people to make, and that's not something that should
27:04
be foisted upon them, but it is one that they should make knowingly,
27:07
which is similar to the conversation we just had around gender roles being flipped in
27:12
heterosexual relationships. It's not that these gender roles are bad or the roles themselves
27:17
are bad. Somebody has to do the dishes and somebody has to cook,
27:21
and ideally it's not going to be the same person, but it doesn't need
27:25
to be assumed who's cooking and who's doing the dishes. Once you have that
27:27
conversation, you can decide, even as a woman, to like cook,
27:30
and your partner can decide to do the dishes. But you've made that choice
27:33
consciously and without pressure, and we're seeing a reversal of that, which I'm
27:37
concerned about. Me too, Me too. I want to ask you also
27:41
about what you consider red flags and green flags when looking for bad or even
27:48
within a relationship. There are no red flags. You work straight into all
27:51
of them. So I think I love this line and it's on my Hinge
27:53
profile as well, that it's the one thing that I look out for is
27:59
in a person is if you're kind even when no one is watching, right,
28:03
I think it's it's those small instances. But you don't need to be
28:07
nice. Are you're nice to people who have less power than who you have
28:10
nothing to give? Exactly? And when nobody else is watching you be nice
28:14
to them. It's not like, you know, like you're volunteering at some
28:18
send you and like taking photos with all of these kids who come from an
28:22
underprivileged background, like no, But it's when you're doing the small things that
28:25
you wouldn't necessarily have had to do otherwise, that are instinctive. And if
28:29
your gut instinct is to be nice, that's the biggest green flag. I
28:33
think red flags there are too many, Like, however, do we have
28:36
another podcast? Me is going to be red flags? Top she red flags
28:42
if they spend time on the first stage criticizing the way you look, if
28:48
someone's like pointing out why are you wearing that big red flag like runaway?
28:53
Second? Red flags is hard any hint of a tendency for violence. It's
29:00
a big red I've ran. That's so important though, you know, because
29:03
I think and this I see with friends who've been in relationships where violence has
29:08
been a concern, and domestic abuse in particular, we all think that it
29:11
can't happen to us. But it's insidious, and that it's sort of like
29:15
weaves its way in and once you're there, even if you're the most woke
29:18
person or you know everything about the world, you've read it all very how
29:22
to get out. So that's a very good reflect hints of violence, I
29:25
think. Also a lack of accountability, like they don't do what they say
29:29
they'll do, you know, or just stand you up. If I'm stood
29:33
up, I'm not meeting that person again, the senner. That's I have
29:36
the worst ADHD, which means I have no organizational skills, So I preface
29:40
everything. I'm like, I will be late. Please you say that now.
29:44
I have text like fifteen minutes before leaving. Also, no, yeah,
29:48
if you then say yes you're coming and you don't come, I'm not
29:49
going to meet you. So tell you what. I'll tell you this funny
29:52
story. So this is actually the first boy I ever kissed. It's actually
29:56
a phenomenal story to tell. Oh, tell me, tell me. So
29:59
I was at college at Columbia. We both went and I had gone to
30:04
the therapist on campus and very like confidently told her, I need your help
30:10
to stay in the closet. Because I was like, I have to work
30:12
in politics and this is getting hard. So you are the therapists, the
30:15
mental health media. Mental health will be fixed by staying in the closet.
30:18
So you helped me do that, and she just looked at me and smiled
30:21
and said sure, of course. Over the next three months she helped me
30:23
come out of the closet. But we decided that I could only come out
30:27
somewhere because remember macgalo Mania Times of India front page. I was terrified,
30:30
if I come out where anybody knows me, everyone will know and then that's
30:34
game over. You said, one week, come out somewhere I know nobody,
30:37
and nobody knows me. And so I applied for this grant from the
30:41
European Institute for Cultural Power and International Relations, which then allowed me to go
30:45
to Paris. And so I was working at the Indian Embassy in Paris and
30:49
at the Press, Information and Culture Bureau, which I did barely any work.
30:52
And I should not say this. I love the Indian Embassy in Paris,
30:56
but I was working there. There was not much work at the Press,
30:57
Information and Culture Bureau. In August, which is when everyone in France
31:00
was on vacation, and I was there when I started using Grinder for the
31:04
first time, and I met this lovely boy who said, why don't you
31:08
come on over and we'll go out to Queen, which is this iconic queer
31:11
nightclub that used to be on the shows that DZA that shut down, like
31:15
many queer clubs across the world have shut down. And I said, yes,
31:18
of course that would be lovely. Anish gets onto the metro fully half
31:23
an hour late. Did you tell him? No? I had forgotten to
31:26
tell him that I was going to lie. I was like going to message
31:30
here and my phone night And so I am now forty five minutes late.
31:34
As I get out of this metro station that I'm supposed to get out at,
31:38
I have no charger, and so I'm like, how do I tell
31:42
this man? I feel so terrible about like not informing him my phone is
31:47
there, So what do I do? So I find this charging point next
31:48
to bus stop when I'm like charging my phone right outside the metro station,
31:53
and this boy has been cycling around and round this metro station for the past
31:59
half hour because he's concerned that I haven't responded when I was supposed to be
32:04
there. So you found each other and we found each other and it was
32:07
the sweetest thing. He was like the China looking for me, and I
32:09
was like, you know, you are such a darling. And then we
32:13
went to his house and then we went to Queen and then we made art
32:17
and then I kissed the bar and I liked it. And then there was
32:20
no way back because that was that was coming out. Was like no,
32:23
no, no, no, no, going back to the closet after that,
32:27
and we're still friends. I meet him every year when I go to
32:29
Paris, and I make it a point to go as often as I can,
32:31
just because I think it's a love that's lasted and we're not romantically involved
32:35
with each other at all, but it's just such a special bond that's continued
32:38
that is so so beautiful, And you know, it made me think of
32:40
many things. Perhaps to some degree, there is an inequality in the way
32:45
that men and women see each other, and it goes both ways, where
32:50
there's this idea of like I must be. You know, I think for
32:53
women, the steaks that are made to seem like they're very high. If
32:58
it doesn't work out, okay, because you gave this golden apple of your
33:01
honor and sexuality his man and he dumped you, you know what I mean?
33:06
These ideas of like somehow they're being an exchange, a transaction where the
33:10
woman gives and the man takes, is coded into the way that heterosexual relationships
33:15
are configured. So even something small as the man being late to the date
33:19
makes it feel a bit like in the very primitive condition of conditioning, like
33:23
I gave a little and it was not appreciated, or it was squandered,
33:28
or it was do you know what I mean? It becomes personal in a
33:30
way that actually shouldn't if you see yourselves as equals. For example, I
33:35
think if a girlfriend was late, I wouldn't feel so bad. I wouldn't
33:38
take it personally in this way. It wouldn't seem like a lack of accountability
33:42
in the way that it does when aman does that. You know, so
33:45
to some extent, like what was so beautiful about your story where he was
33:49
waiting you wanted to charge your phone, Like you both really did want to
33:52
see each other. Nobody was mad happy when you met and then had your
33:57
first kiss and are still in touch, right, It seems to be this
34:00
equality in the way that you see each other, men see women as like
34:04
a conduit for sex, but not always as an equal human being. Is
34:07
the like very basic gender theory idea around inequality between the sexes. And I
34:13
want to push you on that and say that what happened with me was only
34:15
possible because I was again in a space where I knew nobody and nobody knew
34:20
me. I did not have the background or the cues that I needed to
34:23
determine whether I could be late for this or not. He didn't have the
34:28
cues needed to know what this random man from India I was doing, like
34:30
some random internship with the embassy in France is coming from, you know,
34:35
like there was this sort of innocence in not knowing that gets disrupted because it
34:38
would happen even in India, where for example, if I was meeting somebody
34:42
significantly wealthier in Delhi, I would not be late, right, or them
34:46
being late, I would feel quite affronted by it because they thought that my
34:51
time could be taken for granted because they're wealthier than I am. Or flip
34:53
that around, right, Or if you came from a very different cast background,
34:58
or if you came from a sort of different social strata or from a
35:01
sort of difference, you know. I think these are sort of dynamics that
35:05
becomes so much harder when you know the sort of background of the person who's
35:10
having which is why man in every party a new place, you know,
35:15
and that's running away from the problem. And I acknowledge that, I think,
35:17
but in these times running aways is sometimes the only sort of solution in
35:22
the short term, but in the long term, I think these are challenges
35:24
that need to be addressed, and I think the only way of doing that
35:28
is being very upfront of that communication and saying that this is unacceptable. Yeah.
35:34
I wonder if we can all strive to bring some of the energy of
35:37
young love in Paris, young and anonymous love in Paris into all our relationships
35:43
where you kind of do everything you can to minimize power differentials. If there
35:47
is a power differential, at least the impact of that on the way both
35:51
parties interact and love kindness, love with exactly, love with kindness and equality.
35:57
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a wonderful not to wrap up on
36:00
an exit, Well, I could sit here and talk for five hours,
36:04
probably probably not over time already, but this was so much fun. This
36:07
was very very lovely. Thank you so much for having me and what a
36:09
fun chat. Thanks so much, Annie, it's been so much fun chatting
36:15
and thank you for tuning into Love Matters, produced by the Indian Express and
36:19
DW, Germany's international broadcaster. I hope that you enjoyed this episode. Please
36:23
share it with your friends and family. Please feel free toly like, share,
36:29
subscribe it more, yes, exactly what he said, Leave a comment,
36:32
Tell your friends. Email us at Lovematters at DW dot com. If
36:37
you feel like reading all the emails, please forward until next time. This
36:44
is me these I'm under us and I believe Love Matters