Latest / The Epstein Chronicles / Mega Edition: Unnamed MCC Lieutenant And HIs OIG Interview (1-3) (7/3/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: Unnamed MCC Lieutenant And HIs OIG Interview (1-3) (7/3/26) · The Epstein Chronicles

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Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
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Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right
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back in to another deposition given by another employee at MCC,
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and this time it's an unnamed captain. And like usual,
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we're going to follow the same format. When I say question,
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that's the investigator asking the question, and when I say answer,
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that's the unnamed lieutenant giving his answer. So we're just
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gonna get right to it. Question. Please just let me
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know if you don't understand these questions, and I'll try
0:34
to rephrase them or put them in a different way.
0:36
Add clarification. So what's your home address? And what is
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your date of birth? And your Social Security number? He
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answers question thank you? And your current cell phone number?
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Answer redacted? Question? And what's your highest level of education?
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Answer bachelor's question? Where? Answer criminal justice? Question criminal justice?
1:00
Where did you get that from? Answer redacted? Question? Is
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that New York City? Answer? Yeah? Question? And when did
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you graduate? Answer two thousand and six? I think? Question okay?
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And what did you do prior to working for the BOP?
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Answer uh TSA question okay? And what did you do
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for TSA? Answer? I was a screener at JFK. Question
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how long did you do that? Answer six and a
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half years? Question from approximately when until when? Answer from
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two to nine? Question two to nine? Okay? And do
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you have any military service? Answer no? Question okay? And
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how long have you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons?
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Answer like about twenty years? Question about twenty years? Answer yeah?
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Question oh okay? So did you do it while you
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were with the TSA? Answer I did TSA is and
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I he gets cut off by the investigator. No, no.
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With the BOP, how long have you served with the BOP?
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Answer the BOP twelve years? Question twelve years? Okay? From
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when until when? Answer oh nine? To present? Question what
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was your answer? Duty date? Answer June twenty first, I
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think two thousand and nine. Question okay? Any breaks of
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service answer nah? Question okay? And when did you do
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you know when you graduated BOP training? Answer? I think
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it's September or August. Question of two thousand and nine.
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Answer you're talking about Glencoe right question yeah? Answer yeah?
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Oh nine? Question okay? And when and where was your
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first office assignment with the BOP? Answer New York? Question
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which institution? Answer MCC question were you with MCC the
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whole time? Answer yeah? Question oh okay, And when did
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you become a lieutenant? Answer what's this? Twenty one, twenty
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nineteen eighteen. I think December seventeenth. I did a temp.
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Question December of twenty seventeen. Answer seventeen. Yeah. Question, And
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when did you leave the MCC. Answer I left December
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of nineteen. Question December of twenty nineteen. Answer yeah. Question
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And then is that when you came here to FCI
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Danbury answer yeah. Question and did you come here for
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a promotion? Answer yeah. Question so you were a GS
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nine lieutenant? Answer I was a nine there, but I
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got TDY down down there, so I was an eleven
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down there? Question oh you were? Answer yeah, I got
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TDY for about four months. Question okay, can you just
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what does that mean? Answer temporary duty Like I was
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picked up. I got my promotion, but I had to
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stay down there for a few months until I came
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up here. Question okay, So FCI Danberry you were promoted
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to an eleven, but they had you stay down there
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as an eleven for four months? Answer yeah. Question So
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when were you actually picked up? Answer about three months
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in October September October November three months. Yeah. Question, So
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when did you actually get your promotion? Answer September question
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of twenty nineteen. Answer yeah. Question, And when did you
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physically come to the FCI Danberry Answer December. Question December? Okay,
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And your current position is still gs eleven and lieutenant
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answer yeah. Question. And what was your position at the
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MCC on August ninth and tenth of twenty nineteen? Answer
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August you said tenth. Question yeah, so August you said
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September you got your eleven, So I'm assuming in August
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of twenty nineteen he gets cut off by the lieutenant.
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I was a nine then, yeah, in August. Yeah. Question
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and this is just for my own knowledge. What's the
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difference between a nine lieutenant and an eleven lieutenant? Answer?
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Pretty much you could if you if you're at nine,
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you can't run the institution because it's not a higher rank.
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So like eleven or the only ones who can without
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a captain, you're the highest, but a nine you can't
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be the highest. Question So does that mean like as
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far as like being the ops lieutenant versus the activities lieutenant? Answer? Nah,
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you could be ops as nine. Question okay, answer, but
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but he gets cut off by the investigator. So like
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acting captain, you mean answer no, say like if it's
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a nine, it's like evening watch four to twelve or midnight.
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The eleven is the highest authority question? Okay, answer as
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a nine. You can't do that. You have to have
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eleven or above for nine to be an authority question. Okay,
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So you can be an obsolute tenant, but somebody else
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has to be there that's higher than you. Answer yeah,
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if you are a nine. Yeah. Question Okay, do you
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recall what shift you worked on August ninth and tenth
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of twenty nineteen. Answer August ninth. What day was that question?
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It's August ninth. Sorry, we'll just talk about August ninth.
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August ninth, twenty nineteen. That was the day before Epstein
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was found dead. It was a Friday. Answer, so the
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Friday I probably was daywatch. Question. Okay. I'm going to
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give you the daily roster for that date, just so
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you can reprint it. Anytime I give you a document.
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You don't have to do it right away, but you can.
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I'm just going to have you initial in date each document.
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It's just for the record. We can say that the
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document that you looked at and we don't like replace something,
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you know what I mean? So on that, can you
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find your name and see where it is that you
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work just to verify? Answer yeah, I did overtime from
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say to two. Question from six am to two pm?
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Answer yeah, question and that was on August ninth. Answer yeah.
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Question do you know if there were specific times that
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you worked? I know, for instance, the individual that was
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the Activities lieutenant after you, she didn't start until four
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pm because she had her regular time shift until four pm.
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Would that mean that you had worked until four or
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would you still have stopped at two? Answer? I don't know.
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Question do you usually have to wait until the new
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activities lieutenant comes on board? Answer M, that's redacted. Was,
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but she wasn't a lieutenant here though. Question No, she
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was an SIS but she got I guess temporarily promoted
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at least for that day to be able to be
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the activities lieutenant. But she wasn't in an attorney conference
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until four pm, and she didn't start as the activities
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lieutenant until four pm. Answer I don't remember, but I
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know we usually even though it says eight to four,
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we usually do six to two. Two to ten anyway?
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Question Yeah, answer, we relieve people early. Question right, and
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my understanding is it's for traffic purposes. Answer, so if
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the ninth I would have cam on, then she wouldn't
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have to stay until four. I don't know. Question how
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does that typically work? Though? I guess would it be?
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Do you have to be relieved before you can leave? Answer?
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You mean for me? Question? Yeah, like, if you're the
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activities lieutenant at the MCC back in August of twenty nineteen,
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are you allowed to leave before the new activity is
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lieutenant takes over? Or do you have to wait until
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she's done. I'm just trying to help refresh your memory
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if you can. He gets cut off by the lieutenant.
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I'm not sure I know how we do it. As
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someone say, I got you, I'll cover you. Then we relieve.
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Question but you don't specifically remember this date? Answer? No,
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question not the fact that like Epstein died the day after.
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Does that help you like kind of refresh your memory
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of what your involvement may have been. Answer? I know
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I was doing day watch. I was doing day Watch.
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I do know that. But as far as who relieved
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and all that, nah, I don't remember that. Question all right,
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we can probably just grab your time and attendance records
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then later just try too indiscernible that down. But you
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just can't remember at this point. Answer what you asked me?
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Was I there? Question? Yeah? Yeah, just I mean from
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two to four? You don't remember if you would have
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you had to wait until redacted was actually in place
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before you left or not? Answer? Nah, I don't know.
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I could have been there at four because I left
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at two. I'm not sure. Question Okay, fair enough, So
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you either worked until two pm or four pm you
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just don't recall. Answer yeah, question all right, and who
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did you on that date? Who would have you primarily
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work with? Answer? I don't know, because Friday, I don't
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know why I'm doing overtime on Friday. I'm trying to
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think redacted as normally not the ops lieutenant though either
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question is that because he was a nine? Answer redacted's eleven.
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He's shoe lieutenant. Question at the time redacted was the
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shoe lieutenant? Answer? Oh no, no, no, redacted was the
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shoe lieutenant. Okay, so if I'm on Friday and Saturday,
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then maybe I don't know you have my what's her name? Records? Question?
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This is Saturday, so I'm giving you the daily assignment roster. Answer,
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I'm thinking this is my day off. I'm thinking Friday
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was my day off, so I came in for the
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overtime on Friday. If I'm on Friday and Saturday, then
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I would be ops. That's what I'm thinking. Question did
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you work on Saturday? Answer Saturday, I was off. Question Okay,
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so you're not on the list that I just gave
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you for Saturday. Answer no, I should be on day watch.
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Question okay, answer this is the day that Epstein died,
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right question Yeah, answer Yeah, I wasn't there that day.
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Question Okay, but you just can't remember if you worked
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until two or four on August ninth. Answer no. Question Again,
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there's no reason that I'm asking you this specifically right now.
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It's just try to make sure that we know what
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time you work there. Answer, Well, you're trying to see
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if there's a pattern of he gets cut off by
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the investigator. No, no, not a pattern. It's not looking
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at you. It's just to you know, when we talk
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to people, we say, like, what time were you there from?
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Just because in knowing that redacted didn't start until Because
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there's no reason for us at this point to get
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your time and attendance records, because again, we're just talking
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to everybody that was there on each day. I'm just
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trying to when we talk to you, we just need
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to lock down each person. What time were you there until? Answer?
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I don't know. Another investigator jumps in. We have specific
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questions about what happened during the day, but if you're
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not there during the day during that specific time. He
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gets cut off by the other investigator. Some questions might
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not apply to you. That's what we're trying to figure out.
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So what time were you there until? Answer? I mean,
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so you want to ask me questions up until four?
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Is that what you're saying? Answer, well, ask you specifically questions.
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He gets cut off. Well, you can do it. But
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if I don't remember, I just say that I don't remember. Question. Yeah,
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that's fine, you just don't. But at this point, you
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just don't know if you were there until four pm?
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Answer no question. And you don't remember relieving redacted or
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redacted or leaving you? Answer no question? And do you
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remember being relieved by anyone? Answer no question? No? All right,
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But I guess then that goes back to my original
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question do you need to be relieved by someone in
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order to leave? Answer normally it depends. Question. Can there
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just be an absolute tenant and no activities tenant on
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during the day? Answer yeah, that could be any day
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question okay, answer yeah. Question. So it's just there's these
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are genuine questions. We don't know the answer to these.
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So that's not like abnormal to have like just a
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two hour gap where there's no activities. Lieutenant. Answer No,
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he was going a lot of work up until this.
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We're doing a lot of work. So some days you'll
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be there, I'm quite sure. Looking at the records, you'll
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see my name by itself. Question right on some days
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there was just like one activity or one ops Lieutenant
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answer yeah, question okay, And that was Monday through Friday,
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not just on weekends. Answer any day question or night
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shifts or morning answer any days. It was a busy
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time back then. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up
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right here and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
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we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the
13:56
information that goes with this episode can be found in
14:00
the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another
14:03
episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going
14:07
to pick up where we left off with a lieutenant
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from MCC and his interview with the OIG investigators. Question, Okay,
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do you know at the time who was your supervisor?
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Answer the captain question and as the activities lieutenant and
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you said it was daywatch. Answer yeah, question what were
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your duties and responsibilities? Answer rounds orderly, institution running the
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institution question? And what does a round consist of? As
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a lieutenant answer going up to the unit, speaking to
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the officer, if you want go to a unit team,
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do the tears see what's going on? Question? Now at
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the time, did lieutenant redacted when you say go do tears?
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Were lieutenants responsible for conducting rounds of inmates as well,
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like you know, walking up and down the tears to
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make sure answer some like that, I mean that's are
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we the lieutenants responsible for that question? Yeah, I know
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that that's the CEO's primary responsibility. But when you're conducting
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around in like a unit specifically, we'll talk about the shoe.
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If you visit the shoe and on this date there
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was no shoe, lieutenant, correct answer, no question. So if
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you are visiting the shoe. Are you responsible to conduct
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any rounds on the tiers as a lieutenant? Answer? Yeah,
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the lieutenant has to make around in shoey shift. Question
15:30
So when I say, but when you visit the shoe,
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is it just visiting the shoe checking in with the
15:36
officers or do you I mean checking in with the
15:39
CEOs or is it actually also doing around where the
15:43
inmates are located and looking in their cells? Answer? I mean, yeah,
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you're supposed to do around. Question Okay, so that he
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gets cut off by the lieutenant. You mean exactly what
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do you suppose to specifically do? Question Yeah? I guess
15:58
what I'm asking is what does lieutenants round in the
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shoe consist of? Answer? I don't know. I know for me,
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I used to like to go down the tears. Question
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to actually check on the inmates. Answer yeah, question so
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you're actually doing he gets cut off by the lieutenant
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do a whole complete round? Question So you're actually doing
16:21
a round of the inmates, not just doing a round
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in the shoe to say, hey, are you guys good
16:26
with the officers? Answer yeah, unless something happens, Like if
16:30
something happens, you know, they just say you all right?
16:33
It was a BA all right, I'll be back, or
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something like that. Question right right? You mean if you
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get called out or something like that, you needed the run,
16:42
answer that that, or they call you question right answer
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something specific to a specific tale, or gets cut off
16:50
by the investigator. But were you responsible? And this is
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just in general, not just specifically you. It's any lieutenant
16:58
if there's no shoe liuten tenant responsible to do a
17:01
round on day watch of the inmates when they visit
17:04
the shoe. Answer I'm not sure. Question you're not sure,
17:08
but you did answer that day question No, I mean
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just in general, like when you would visit the shoe,
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you would do that. Answer yeah, Say like if I
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fill in or whatever and there's no shoe lieutenant to say, hey,
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you gotta make around, all right, or you have an
17:24
activities do it or whatever? Question does a lieutenant have
17:29
to do around on that shift? Answer that would be, yeah,
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you have to do around. Question Okay, So at least
17:35
one lieutenant on day watch on August ninth, twenty nineteen
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had to do around in the shoe of the inmates.
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Answer on day watch question yeah, answer yeah. Question what
17:46
about night watch and morning watch? Do they have to
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do it on those answer night watch and morning watch. Yeah.
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Question so every shift, Lieutenant, he gets cut off by
17:57
the lieutenant. Three shifts you got to do around question
18:01
and that gets cut off by the lieutenant again, supposed
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to do around question and that's with the inmates, not
18:08
just checking in. Answer I'm not sure. Question. Oh you're
18:12
not sure, but you would when you did it. Answer
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I'm on discernible. I'm trying to move around like hit
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the tears question okay, cool? Do you remember who replaced
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you that day? Answer? Who I relieved? Question? Yeah? Answer
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who I relieved? Question? Who relieved? He gets cut off
18:31
by the lieutenant. Nobody question. So because there's no activities
18:36
lieutenant prior to you? Answer no question and that's because yeah,
18:41
there's only for the morning watch. Is there only an
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obsos lieutenant? Answer yep. Question So you were the first
18:48
one in on that day and you said that you
18:51
arrived when answer six o'clock question six am? Okay, And
18:56
you said you just don't recall who replaced you or
18:59
if you stayed until four correct answer? Yeah, did you
19:03
look at the video? Question? We didn't, haven't had a
19:07
reason to yet. I just assumed that you would have remembered.
19:10
Answer Nah, I don't remember. Question okay, answer it was
19:14
twenty nineteen. Question yeah, yeah, no, just because of the
19:18
you know, this was probably one of the biggest things
19:21
that's ever happened. Answer yeah, but that's why I'm like,
19:25
why are they talking about it now? That's why I'm like,
19:28
he gets cut off. Yeah, I mean now is just
19:31
because there's things that have happened in the past month
19:34
that now is creating. He gets cut off by the lieutenant.
19:38
Oh with the case. Question yeah, that we now have
19:41
to interview a ton of people to be able to
19:43
find out who was there, what happened, and all that
19:46
kind of stuff. Answer yeah, but I'm not sure about
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the time on that question all right. And are you
19:51
familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? Answer yeah. Question did you ever
19:55
work or visit the Shoe while Epstein was assigned to
19:58
the Shoe in July and August of twenty nineteen? Answer
20:02
probably did. Question did Epstein have a cell mate when
20:05
he was in the Shoe? Answer up until that day? Right,
20:10
question yeah. And do you know if there was a
20:13
reason why Epstein was assigned to cell mat Answer in
20:16
shoe you're supposed to be double bunked. Question. Okay, so
20:21
he gets cut off by the lieutenant even if you
20:23
don't have the whole prior thing before. Question, So everybody
20:27
in the shoe is supposed to be answer not everybody,
20:30
but you got certain cases. But he was supposed to
20:33
have a bunk. Question. So as far as who would
20:38
who wouldn't be assigned to cellmate? Answer house alone, wreck alone, inmates,
20:43
you know, hunger, strike inmates, and pos question. But Epstein
20:48
was one of those inmates that should have had a
20:50
cell mate. Answer yeah, he was a regular inmate. Yeah.
20:53
Question Okay, are you aware that Epstein had attempted to
20:57
commit suicide on July twenty third, nineteen. Answer yeah. Question
21:03
and were you one of the responding officers to that?
21:05
Answer no question? Were you did you have any involvement
21:09
with it? Answer that incident? No question? No, do you
21:14
know what transpired? Answer? They say he put something around
21:18
his neck in his cell and that was it. Question
21:21
did you ever hear any rumors that his cellmate may
21:23
have tried to harm them? Answer? Oh, yeah, you're talking
21:26
about Yeah, I heard about that. Yeah. Question What did
21:30
you hear about that? Answer that it was a ploy
21:33
for him to get bail something like that. Question all right,
21:36
so did you is your understanding that he actually did
21:40
try to harm himself or was it your understanding that
21:43
is cell mate tried to harm them? Answer you're talking
21:47
about the rumor? Question? Yeah, what is your understanding? Answer?
21:51
The rumor was the guy also had a high profile case,
21:54
and I think Epstein was up for a Bell hearing,
21:56
so they made it look like he was doing that
21:58
in order to get Bell. Question Okay, do you think
22:03
there was any legitimacy to the rumor? Answer? I don't know,
22:07
not after this? Nah? Question no answer, no question, all right,
22:12
So do you believe that he actually did try to
22:14
harm himself on July twenty third? Answer? Yeah. Question okay,
22:19
do you know as a result of July twenty third
22:21
if Epstein, if anything happened with Epstein? Was he removed
22:25
from the shoe and placed anywhere else? Answer? He went
22:29
to suicide Watch? Question Okay, and what happens on suicide watch?
22:34
Is that outside of the shoe? Answer? Yeah. Question and
22:37
then after you get placed on suicide watch, is that
22:40
a temporary thing? And then you get moved over to
22:43
psych observation? Answer not all the time? No, that's up
22:47
to psych. Psych makes that call. Question do you are
22:51
you aware if Epstein was outside of the shoe and
22:53
on suicide watch or psych observation for approximately one week? Answer?
22:59
I know he was definitely on there because I remember
23:01
seeing them. Question you saw him there? Answer? Yeah? Question
23:05
is that because you were doing rounds or why did
23:08
you see him in there? Answer? I had to because
23:11
I'm the one who does the showers for suicide inmates
23:15
or psych watch if you go down there. So he
23:17
was down there one day, probably a couple days, but
23:20
I took him to the shower one time. Yeah. Question okay,
23:23
so you had some interaction with him? Answer yeah, question
23:28
while he was on suicide watch? Answer suicide watch. Yeah.
23:32
Question okay, and I just thought I just thought you
23:35
were only on suicide watch for like twenty four hours,
23:38
and then after that it was called psych observation. Is
23:42
that not your understanding? Answer it's up to psych. That's
23:45
a psych call. Question. But is it the same they're
23:50
in the same location correct answer, Yeah, but people who
23:53
are on suicide watch longer than twenty four hours. Question okay,
23:59
so you're understand the whole time he was there it
24:02
was called suicide watch. Answer I don't remember. Question okay,
24:06
Answer the whole time he was up there. Question do
24:09
you know when he was removed from suicide Watch? Answer? No?
24:13
Question do you know why he was removed from suicide Watch?
24:17
Answer he would be moved because psych said it was okay.
24:21
Question okay, And then someone is on suicide watch. What
24:24
does that entail? Answer? You have a suicide smock, suicide mattress,
24:29
and a suicide blanket, and you allow pretty much no
24:32
items unless approved. There's a book that they have. Question okay,
24:36
And what's the difference. What's the difference between psych observation?
24:40
What does that entail? Answer? You got the clothes? Question
24:44
all right, So when you're on suicide watch, you don't
24:47
have the clothes. Answer naked. Question you're naked the whole time?
24:52
And you know if Epstein was naked that whole time.
24:54
Answer he had a smock, and yeah, he didn't have
24:57
no clothes. Question he didn't have clothes when he was
25:00
on suicide Watch. Answer, you can't have clothes on suicide watch.
25:05
Question okay, all right. So does it sound right that
25:08
he would have been removed about a week later, around
25:11
July thirtieth? Does that sound like a date? Answer? I
25:14
don't know. Question Okay, did you ever receive any instructions
25:18
from anyone with regard to Epstein being assigned a cell
25:21
mate after he came back from Suicide Watch. Answer I'm
25:26
not sure. Question you don't remember any verbal conversation or
25:30
anything like that. Answer? No, question, all right, I'm going
25:34
to show you an email and then you can tell
25:36
me if you remember receiving it. An email from redacted?
25:39
Do you know who that is? Answer? Yeah? Question all right,
25:42
it's to Suicide Watch psych Observation update, and that's also
25:47
what the subject is, and it's from July thirtieth, twenty nineteen.
25:51
It says inmate Epstein and it gives his reg number
25:55
is being taken off psych observation and needs to be
25:58
housed with an appropriate cell mate. Do you recall receiving that? Answer? Yeah,
26:02
it's generic. We always get those. Question you get those? Answer, yeah. Question,
26:08
there's names on the back. It shows that you were
26:10
one of them and that you read it. Do you
26:12
see your name? Yeah, it would be under redacted, so
26:16
it's all alphabetical. So does that ring a bell? Do
26:20
you remember getting that? Answer? Yeah? Question okay, cool, Then
26:25
do you recall so you were aware that he needed
26:27
a cell mate? Then? Correct, you already said that you
26:30
knew he needed one because he was a regular inmate.
26:33
Right answer. Yeah, but I don't know what this is
26:36
at twelve thirty and the thirtieth right question yeah, seven
26:40
thirty so yeah. Answer. Oh it was seven thirty on
26:43
July thirtieth, So he got off on July thirtieth. Question correct,
26:48
place back in the shoe and required a cell mate? Answer? Okay,
26:54
And just before we forget, do you mind just initially
26:57
and dating each one of these documents so that they
27:00
don't start piling up and as well as that email.
27:03
Thank you sir. Now, do you remember having conversations with
27:06
anyone like verbal like redacted or anyone regarding the need
27:10
for him to have a cellmate? Answer? No, question, because
27:14
I'm assuming he was one of the most high profile,
27:18
if not the most high profile inmate at the time.
27:20
Correct answer, yeah. Question, So would that be something that
27:24
they would people would usually communicate with the activities and
27:28
the absolute tenant about answer. I mean, if you got
27:31
the email question okay, question, you got to follow up
27:34
that you wanted to ask. This is the other investigator.
27:39
So you mentioned that you had interacted with Epstein while
27:41
he was on suicide Watch and you took him for showers.
27:44
Answer yeah. Question how was your interaction with him? Answer?
27:48
You know, cuff up, take them to the shower. Question
27:51
did you ever talk with them? Answer? Yeah? Question was
27:54
he pleasant? Were there any issues with that? Answer? He
27:58
was saying, Hey, while I'm down here much. He asked
28:01
why he was down here? I said, well, he was like, yeah,
28:04
I'm not suicidal such and such, and you know, let
28:06
me talk to psych so I can get off this.
28:08
I don't think he liked it. Question this is immediately
28:12
after the July twenty third. Answer. I don't know exactly
28:16
what day it was, but you know it was around there. Question.
28:20
Got it all right, folks, We're gonna wrap up right
28:23
here and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
28:25
we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the
28:28
information that goes with this episode can be found in
28:31
the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another
28:34
episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going
28:38
to pick up where he left off with the unnamed
28:41
lieutenant from mcc and his interview with the OIG investigators. Question.
28:48
We're going to follow up with some of those more
28:51
lines of questioning later on in the interview. So you
28:54
don't recall though receiving specific instructions from Captain redacted or
28:58
anyone else with Epstein, You do you know he needed
29:03
one and you did not get the email? Answer? These
29:07
come all the time. Any inmate comes off of Watch,
29:10
they send it out. Question and should everyone know if
29:13
someone comes off Watch that they are required to have
29:16
a cell mate? Answer? I'm not sure. I mean that's
29:18
what they do. They come out anyone comes off Suicide Watch,
29:22
you put them in with the cell mate. Question. Yeah,
29:26
and that's pretty general common knowledge, correct? And where do
29:29
you learn that? Is that from your daily operations or
29:32
do you learn that in training as well? Answer? I
29:34
don't know. I guess it's daily operations. Question Okay, but
29:38
most people should know that a person coming off of
29:41
Suicide Watch is required to have a cell mate. Answer,
29:45
I mean it depends. I don't know. I know we
29:47
get these emails though, they send them out anytime an
29:50
inmate comes off, you try to put them with a
29:52
cell mate. But then again, like I said in the Shoe,
29:56
it's you know, because even if they come off Suicide Watch,
29:59
they don't say like they come off and stay in
30:01
the shoe for a year, they have to have a
30:03
cell mate for a year. You understand what I'm saying.
30:06
So as far as the notice, we get. But does
30:08
everyone know that? I'm not sure about that question but
30:12
you knew? Answer yeah? Question how did you know? Though? Answer?
30:15
I got the email. Question Okay, so your knowledge is
30:18
from the email. But earlier you said that anybody in
30:21
the shoe anyway needs to needs a cell mate. Answer yeah,
30:26
question all right, So he had basically two requirements to him.
30:30
One there was an email that he received. Also the
30:33
fact that he was in the shoe and he didn't
30:35
have any of those special requirements like he was going
30:38
to harm someone else or something like that that he
30:41
should have a cell mate. Answer right. Question all right?
30:45
And do you know if you ever communicated that to
30:47
anybody when you visited the shoe in July or August
30:51
of twenty nineteen. Answer I'm not sure. Question like the
30:55
people that worked in the shoe would have you been
30:59
at the activities lieutenant? If you're doing around there, is
31:02
that something that you would address? Answer? Bring up? Yeah,
31:06
if you had a cell mate though, yeah, bring something up?
31:10
If they didn't. Question so you'd only bring it up
31:13
if you knew he didn't have one answer. So like
31:15
if you say, hey, guys, how many single cells do
31:18
we have? Such and such? Hey, what's going on? Hey?
31:22
Well this is the reason question? And is that something
31:26
when you would visit the shoe, is that something you
31:28
would ask? How many single cells do you have? Answer? Yeah?
31:32
Question is that like one of the check the box things?
31:35
Does everybody that visits the shoe he gets cut off
31:38
by the lieutenant. I can't speak for everybody, but I
31:40
know even as oh, I see we said, hey, you
31:44
know the fine we have single cells maneuver to condense
31:47
it for space. Stuff like that question? Okay, answer, so
31:52
I don't know if anyone indiscernible into it. Question, but
31:56
that's what you would do when you were activities lieutenant
31:59
and sir sometimes question okay, answer if I seen someone
32:04
without hey what's going on with this dude? Well he's
32:08
housed in discernible room. Question. But when you would visit
32:13
the shoe, was that something that you would address saying?
32:16
How many single cells do we got? Answer? I'm not
32:19
a shoe lieutenant. Question, oh only if you're the lieutenant.
32:24
Answer yeah, question I'm talking about when you do your rounds. Answer,
32:29
you do the rounds. You only say it if you
32:32
know that someone someone new comes in. Okay, you got
32:35
space for him. No, right now, we've got to put
32:37
him in a single cell or something like that. Question Okay,
32:41
and were you ever the shoe lieutenant answer at MCC?
32:45
Question yeah, answer, I don't think so. I was never
32:48
shoe lieutenant. Question okay, but do you remember ever having
32:51
a conversation with anyone in the shoe at MCC about
32:55
Epstein and his cellmate requirement? Answer? No, question no, all right. So,
33:02
referring to the duty assignment roster, who are the MCC
33:06
supervisors on duty with responsibility for overseeing the shoe on
33:10
August ninth, twenty nineteen when you were working. Answer it
33:15
would be me and redacted. Question so the two of
33:18
you would be responsible answer on day watch? Yeah, question okay.
33:22
And then would it be the same thing for the
33:24
shift after you? Would that be the Activities lieutenant and
33:28
the OPPS lieutenant? Answer? Yeah. Question And is that because
33:32
when the shoe lieutenant is not there, Activities lieutenant and
33:35
Opps lieutenant always have oversight of the shoe. Answer, well,
33:39
I told you we have to make around in the shoe. Yeah. Question,
33:43
but that would be the lieutenants. They would be the
33:46
lieutenants that would have oversight over the shoe. Correct answer, yeah,
33:50
pretty much. Question okay on August ninth, what communication did
33:54
you have with any of the other lieutenants with regard
33:58
to Epstein being housed with MCC or the MCC shoe
34:02
can you recall? Answer? No? Question And again, thinking back,
34:07
this is like one of the biggest things that's ever
34:09
happened when you were there, this guy dies. Can you
34:12
remember any conversations you had the day before with anyone
34:16
with regard to Epstein? Answer? I just know that he
34:19
used to come to the legal all the time, attorney
34:22
conference pretty much the whole day, and that's about it.
34:25
Question and what about the time he would be moved
34:28
from the attorney conference? Answer early, like probably eight in
34:32
the morning. Question and who would be the person that
34:36
would move him? Answer the shoe staff get him out
34:39
of the shoe question okay, answer he was in the shoe.
34:43
Question as the activities lieutenant, did you visit him at
34:47
all in the attorney conference or check on him? Is
34:50
that part of your round process? Answer? It's not part
34:53
of the rounds. But if you see him in there,
34:55
if you're standing by the elevators or something like that. Yeah.
34:58
Question okay, answer, but you're not. You don't have to check.
35:02
No question, all right. Did anyone ever provide you with
35:05
special instructions with regards to Epstein? Answer special instructions? Question Yeah,
35:12
answer like something No, with special instructions like he gets
35:18
cut off by the investigator, like conversations with Epstein. Hey,
35:22
make sure you do this just Epstein, make sure this
35:24
is going you know, I guess specific instructions. Maybe special
35:29
isn't the right word. Answer no question. But did anyone
35:32
ever specifically say, you know this is Epstein, We've got
35:35
to make sure we're doing this. Answer No, not that
35:39
I recall. Question No, did any lieutenants ever talk to
35:42
you about Epstein's requirement to have a cell mate? Answer?
35:46
I mean it's not like I said, we got the email.
35:49
There's no one saying, hey, by the way, from my understanding,
35:52
didn't you have a cell mate up until this? I
35:55
think he had a cell mate since he got out
35:57
of the suicide watch, so I don't think they're was
36:00
elapsed in it. Question So what about up until then?
36:05
You're saying what is your understanding of what happened? Answer?
36:09
What happened his cellmate went to court and either went
36:13
to transfer or got released or something and never came back.
36:16
And then you know that night he went out, he
36:19
went without a cell mate. Question. So we'll get into that.
36:25
I'll ask you a couple more questions then, just to
36:27
make sure that we stay kind of on page at
36:30
the bottom of this page, you see, we're going to
36:32
start talking about that inmate, and I'll just what you
36:35
knew about that. You said lieutenants are responsible for conducting rounds.
36:39
Are there responsible for conducting counts in the shoe? Answer no?
36:43
Question no, so like just around nothing to do with
36:46
the counts. Answer count is for officers. Question okay, And
36:51
you don't need to oversee them as a lieutenant or
36:53
anything like that. Answer you could take account, but usually
36:57
you're doing patrol, you're not doing the count with the officers.
37:01
Question right, So in physically presence in the shoe the
37:05
only time that the lieutenant is involved and actually with rounds,
37:08
not with counts. Answer, not with counts. Question okay? And
37:12
did you conduct any rounds in the shoe on August ninth,
37:15
twenty nineteen. Question you don't remember. Again, you're placing yourself
37:22
back on one of the biggest incidences, and you know
37:24
all this circus that's been going on since that time. Answer, yeah,
37:29
I know. Question, So you can't really put yourself back
37:32
to that day, like, Hey, what was my involvement with this?
37:35
And did I he gets cut off by the lieutenant. No,
37:38
I had no involvement with this. Question. Well that's what
37:42
I mean. But you you were the activities lieutenant, you know,
37:46
on the you know, the day before and specifically, like
37:49
you said, on the day before when a cellmate was removed.
37:54
So you can't remember. Answer if I did a round?
37:58
No question, Okay, So you can't. Then do you remember
38:02
having any conversation with any of the people listed in
38:05
there on your shift in the shoe on that date,
38:08
specifically with regard to Epstein or redacted his cellmate? Answer
38:12
no question, all right, and it'll be like a redacted
38:16
Michael Thomas tovin oell redacted, redacted or redacted, none of
38:20
those people. Answer no question. Okay, So you didn't speak
38:24
to any of those people about Epstein being required to
38:28
have a cell mate since his cellmate was gone. Answer
38:30
you're talking about that day. Question Yeah on that day?
38:36
Answer I can't remember. Question okay, all right. The people
38:40
that are in the shoe are there responsible for conducting
38:43
rounds and counts during their shift? Answer? Yeah. Question as
38:47
far as the shift that you worked on day watch,
38:50
what's your understanding of how many rounds and counts they
38:53
should have done? Answer there's no counts on day watch.
38:56
Question okay, what about the rounds? Answer the rounds you're
39:01
doing a certain shift? We go about so you do one,
39:04
say like eight a thirty, you do one a thirty
39:07
to nine, you do one? Question so every thirty minutes.
39:11
Answer every thirty minutes, not to exceed forty minutes. They're
39:15
regular rounds. Question okay, and you're supposed to do one
39:19
of those rounds with them, but you can't recall whether
39:21
you did or not. Answer No, we're supposed to do
39:24
rounds with them. No question. You're supposed to just do
39:28
a round on your own. Answer yeah, Question okay, answer
39:34
to our round in the shoe. Question and can you
39:38
recall if you did your round in the shoe? Answer no,
39:41
I can. Question you can't recall? Would it be abnormal
39:45
if you didn't? Answer? I can't recall? Question you can't
39:48
recall if it would be abnormal if you didn't answer
39:51
if I didn't do the round? Question right? Answer, would
39:55
it be abnormal? I mean I'm not the shoe lieutenant,
39:57
That's what I'm saying. But there's no shoe lieutenant. You
40:01
said you know you or redacted would be responsible. So
40:05
I'm saying, would it be abnormal if you didn't do it? So?
40:09
Would it be normally have been done? I know you
40:12
said that you're responsible for it? Answer? No, the lieutenants
40:16
are responsible. But if a Monday through Friday, if a
40:18
shoe lieutenants there, there's no reason for me to go
40:21
up there. Question but there is no shoe lieutenant. Answer right, So,
40:26
but I don't recall if I did a round or not? Question? Okay,
40:30
But the last question wasn't that. I'm saying, would it
40:33
have been abnormal if you didn't do one? I know
40:36
you can't recall. Answer yeah, question, but should you normally
40:40
have done it? If there's no no shoe lieutenant? Answer yeah,
40:44
question yeah, so knowing yourself, you probably he gets cut
40:48
off by the lieutenant if there's no shoe lieutenant. Yeah,
40:52
question okay, answer okay, All right, folks, we're going to
40:57
wrap up right here, and then the next episode dealing
40:59
with the top Big we're gonna pick up where we
41:01
left off. All the information that goes with this episode
41:04
can be found in the description box