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Night Trap: The Video Game Failure that Changed the Industry · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I
0:04
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, you're welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
0:13
Speaker 1: and there's Charles w Chuck Bryan over there, there's Jerry
0:16
Speaker 1: over there being Saley and this is stuff you should know.
0:23
Speaker 1: Video Obscure lost a video game episode. How did you
0:29
Speaker 1: hear about this? This is your request? Yeah, so Night
0:32
Speaker 1: Trap is the game that we're talking about. And I
0:35
Speaker 1: heard about this from watching the Netflix documentary series High Score.
0:40
Speaker 1: Did you netflix and chill while you were watching Jerk? Uh? No?
0:45
Speaker 1: I Netflix by myself and chilled because Emily wasn't watching this.
0:49
Speaker 1: That's a different thing. Yeah, this is a different thing. Okay, Um,
0:53
Speaker 1: this was a documentary series on Netflix, I think six
0:57
Speaker 1: parts that covered the history you have video games. I
1:01
Speaker 1: can recommend it in one way and that it was
1:03
Speaker 1: a very light, kind of fun watch, but it is
1:07
Speaker 1: by no means comprehensive and a little goofy at times
1:09
Speaker 1: and how they handled some stuff on Night Trap specifically
1:13
Speaker 1: or like the whole series. But but it was fine,
1:16
Speaker 1: and it's it's you know, if you're in the from
1:18
Speaker 1: a certain generation and in the mood for like five
1:21
Speaker 1: plus hours of a bit of a nostalgia kick. You
1:25
Speaker 1: could do worse things, but it's not great. Have you
1:27
Speaker 1: ever seen that documentary I think is King of Kong.
1:31
Speaker 1: That's one of the best times ever made. I haven't
1:35
Speaker 1: seen in years. I got to see it again. It's great.
1:37
Speaker 1: I think our old buddy Josh Berman might have written
1:39
Speaker 1: the original story that that was osed had something to
1:43
Speaker 1: do with that. But Night Trap um I learned about
1:46
Speaker 1: because an episode five they covered when video games started
1:50
Speaker 1: becoming violent, so Mortal Kombat obviously factored in heavily in
1:54
Speaker 1: that episode. And then this game called Night Trap. There's
1:58
Speaker 1: another game I do want to cover on a shorty,
1:59
Speaker 1: but the way one of the first l g tv
2:02
Speaker 1: Q games ever that was really interesting and had a
2:06
Speaker 1: cool story. What the heck is it called? I can't
2:08
Speaker 1: remember now. Um I saw this a couple of months ago,
2:11
Speaker 1: so it's been a while. Oh what was it? I
2:14
Speaker 1: can't remember, but it was. It's great and that will
2:15
Speaker 1: make it for a good shorty. But a really cool
2:17
Speaker 1: story behind it. But this is Night Trap, which figured
2:21
Speaker 1: in as the game that kind of brought about along
2:23
Speaker 1: with Mortal Kombat, but was really central in forming what
2:27
Speaker 1: ended up being the ratings Board for Video Games. I mean,
2:31
Speaker 1: that's that's almost like understating it. Like this one game
2:36
Speaker 1: YE paired with Mortal Kombat basically led directly to the
2:41
Speaker 1: creation of that. Yeah, so that's really why it's notable.
2:44
Speaker 1: The other thing that made it notable, and we'll get
2:46
Speaker 1: into all this, was that it was a a live
2:49
Speaker 1: action as in they shot you know, a little movie,
2:54
Speaker 1: and that you controlled. Yeah, that sort of control you
2:58
Speaker 1: could conceivably theory radically hypathetically controlled. Because it wasn't a
3:02
Speaker 1: great game, but it lives in infamy because of every
3:05
Speaker 1: because it's a really cool story. I think in the end,
3:08
Speaker 1: it is a pretty cool story. Um. And the whole
3:10
Speaker 1: thing starts actually with a play um from the I
3:14
Speaker 1: think it was written in one by a playwright named
3:17
Speaker 1: m John. Oh what's his last name? Okay, I want
3:22
Speaker 1: to I wanted Chris. Yeah, you don't think so, I
3:28
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe, well regardless, he U. He wrote a
3:31
Speaker 1: few episodes of Due South. What's that? It was like
3:34
Speaker 1: a show about a Canadian mount he I think, oh,
3:37
Speaker 1: all right, yeah he wrote this and it was if
3:40
Speaker 1: you've been to Sleep no More in New York, you
3:42
Speaker 1: may have the play Tamara to thank because it is
3:47
Speaker 1: a lot like it's the concept of sleep No More.
3:50
Speaker 1: As far as I know, this was the one that
3:52
Speaker 1: like broke that ground, I think so. And the ground
3:54
Speaker 1: they broke it it's about the painter Tamara day Limplympica,
3:59
Speaker 1: who have never heard of. She was a Polish painter
4:02
Speaker 1: who lived in Italy and the Roaring twenties when um
4:05
Speaker 1: the fascists were starting to take power and she took
4:08
Speaker 1: no guff from him. Hedonistic, amazing art Deco painter, art
4:14
Speaker 1: Deco portraitist basically, so her works really interesting. I didn't
4:18
Speaker 1: know anything about her. I've never heard of her until
4:20
Speaker 1: this too, but I looked her up. She seemed pretty cool.
4:23
Speaker 1: But this is a play about her where it is
4:25
Speaker 1: set on a multi floor building. There are scenes taking
4:28
Speaker 1: place at the same same time and multiple rooms and
4:31
Speaker 1: as an audience, remember you can move from one room
4:34
Speaker 1: to the other, missing out on some stuff, seeing some stuff, interacting.
4:38
Speaker 1: I mean, it's sleep No More. They I don't know
4:40
Speaker 1: if they just totally ripped it off or if they said, hey,
4:43
Speaker 1: it's been you know, thirty years, who's gonna remember Tamara, right?
4:48
Speaker 1: I think it was like they broke that ground and
4:51
Speaker 1: once you break that ground and you're going to have
4:52
Speaker 1: people following your wake. There's probably been other stuff that
4:54
Speaker 1: did this, but Sleep No More I think, just got
4:56
Speaker 1: so much attention in New York for its run. At
4:59
Speaker 1: the might still be going or maybe coming back after
5:02
Speaker 1: the pandemic. I would like to see that. I would
5:04
Speaker 1: love to see Tamara too. But um, this it was.
5:08
Speaker 1: It ran in New York, but it started a Toronto
5:13
Speaker 1: art festival I think, and then some some producers set
5:17
Speaker 1: it up in l A. And that's where it had
5:19
Speaker 1: its longest run, from about the mid eighties to the nineties. Um,
5:22
Speaker 1: they had this. This just just kept going and going
5:25
Speaker 1: and going. I was reading an l A Times article
5:27
Speaker 1: on it. But the reason that it factors into this
5:31
Speaker 1: because it's basically the basis for this game night Trap,
5:35
Speaker 1: where there are different things going on in different rooms
5:40
Speaker 1: and you kind of cycle toggle between the different rooms
5:44
Speaker 1: through security cameras in these rooms to see what's going on.
5:48
Speaker 1: And while you're doing that, you're missing stuff that's happening
5:50
Speaker 1: in other rooms in this game, and if you missed
5:53
Speaker 1: too much stuff, you lose. If you catch enough stuff
5:57
Speaker 1: and you do everything right and press all the correct buttons, uh,
6:01
Speaker 1: you win. But that's that's basically how it applies. It's
6:04
Speaker 1: like this this almost an homage to this play in
6:08
Speaker 1: video game form, but it's full motion video, meaning it's
6:12
Speaker 1: like a film or TV show that you vaguely control
6:16
Speaker 1: or put better, you interact with. Yeah, and the idea
6:19
Speaker 1: of the game, and we'll get a little bit more
6:21
Speaker 1: into the development of it in a minute, but it
6:23
Speaker 1: is basically like a party happening at this house. Um,
6:28
Speaker 1: young like co ed types, like sorority girls. Maybe. Uh.
6:33
Speaker 1: It's it's very sort of titillating, and that was one
6:35
Speaker 1: of the big deals a little bit. I think that
6:38
Speaker 1: for the time they did for the time I wouldn't say,
6:41
Speaker 1: I mean, you got married with children is like ten
6:44
Speaker 1: times more titilating. This is very tame, I think. Well,
6:48
Speaker 1: you know, obviously part of the controversy comes from assaults
6:52
Speaker 1: on women in the game, understandably, but again we'll get
6:56
Speaker 1: to that. It is even tame compared to a lot
6:58
Speaker 1: of the stuff that was out at the time. Um.
7:01
Speaker 1: But what's going on in the game is they are
7:03
Speaker 1: these um pseudo vampires called Augur's that are the bad
7:09
Speaker 1: people in this game. And Jim Riley who who conceived
7:13
Speaker 1: of this game When he had the idea of I
7:16
Speaker 1: think he was watching security camera a security camera screen
7:20
Speaker 1: with all these different rooms and it hit him like
7:22
Speaker 1: what a great idea, And then he saw this play
7:26
Speaker 1: and he said, we can actually do something like this,
7:28
Speaker 1: Like what if a user and a game player could
7:31
Speaker 1: go into any of these views that they want and
7:34
Speaker 1: if they're missing something, they're missing something it might be important,
7:37
Speaker 1: but they're in control of the game. Um. And I
7:41
Speaker 1: mean that's or the story rather right. But again I
7:45
Speaker 1: think you really pointed out something important that that was
7:49
Speaker 1: the concept. In the actuality, they kind of missed the
7:52
Speaker 1: mark a little bit, yes, Um. So with the game
7:56
Speaker 1: the the um It was originally designed as part of
7:59
Speaker 1: a platform called Control Vision and I think internally it
8:04
Speaker 1: was called Nemo an e m oh and it was
8:06
Speaker 1: being created by a company called Axelon, And Axelon was
8:10
Speaker 1: actually a Nolan video game company name, but it was
8:14
Speaker 1: a Nolan Bushnell company. After Atari, he founded Axelon, among others.
8:19
Speaker 1: I think he created five companies at the same time
8:22
Speaker 1: in parallel using this this incubator um that he had
8:26
Speaker 1: created and UM, the developers that Exelon started creating a
8:32
Speaker 1: full motion video HS based we should point out, yes,
8:35
Speaker 1: I VHS and to get from one place to another,
8:40
Speaker 1: rather than this was the breakthrough thing. This is the
8:43
Speaker 1: thing that made this work, and they did get it
8:45
Speaker 1: to work. But using VHS tapes you could toggle between
8:50
Speaker 1: stuff in virtually real time without the VHS player having
8:56
Speaker 1: to rewind or fast forward, which would have really just
8:59
Speaker 1: kind of put the high bosch your whole thing. But instead,
9:02
Speaker 1: because of the interlacing that that video um uses, they
9:08
Speaker 1: could actually choose what field to show at what time
9:12
Speaker 1: and basically switched between them, which was I mean, it
9:16
Speaker 1: looks archaic, but it's a remarkable technology at the time
9:18
Speaker 1: to be able to do that. Yeah, it's still mind blowing.
9:22
Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm like, I've the vaguely understand how this
9:26
Speaker 1: actually works. But the fact that they actually got this
9:29
Speaker 1: to work and had a proof of concept going enough
9:32
Speaker 1: that Hasbro was like sold, that was a big deal. Yeah,
9:37
Speaker 1: and this was five. One of their designers was the
9:39
Speaker 1: legendary Tom Crane who designed Pitfall, one of my favorite
9:42
Speaker 1: all time games on the Atari. But it was a
9:45
Speaker 1: good team and they went apparently to these Hamera performances.
9:48
Speaker 1: They were also inspired by Dragon's Lair. Do you remember
9:51
Speaker 1: that game? I do. I was never into it, but
9:53
Speaker 1: I remember watching it just it looked cool. I mean
9:56
Speaker 1: it was an animation game where it was fully and
10:00
Speaker 1: made it and use laser disc to project this animated footage.
10:04
Speaker 1: So it looked awesome. But it was just it wasn't
10:07
Speaker 1: that great. The gameplay wasn't great. No, but it followed
10:10
Speaker 1: a story. There was a story that was happening, and
10:12
Speaker 1: then every once in a while there's something you had
10:14
Speaker 1: to do to move the story along as part of
10:17
Speaker 1: the game, and if you didn't do it right, the
10:19
Speaker 1: dragon like turned you into to Ash or something like that. Right. Yeah,
10:22
Speaker 1: but you're not actually controlling the player, which was the
10:25
Speaker 1: big difference in these games. The regular game, you're you're
10:28
Speaker 1: creating a sequence like you're you're doing this and then
10:30
Speaker 1: sitting back and then hopefully the thing you're hoping to
10:34
Speaker 1: happen happens. Now, the thing that differentiates that from Night
10:38
Speaker 1: Trap is that there was no coherent story. While you
10:44
Speaker 1: were off doing something that you were supposed to be
10:46
Speaker 1: doing to win the game, the story kept going on
10:48
Speaker 1: over here. So you can't follow a storyline that way, no,
10:51
Speaker 1: which is a big deal and that was a big
10:53
Speaker 1: differentiator between it and dragons Layer. All right, well let's
10:56
Speaker 1: take a little break here. That's a good setup, I think,
10:58
Speaker 1: and we'll come back and get more to Night Trap
11:01
Speaker 1: right after this. All right, so I mentioned the augurs.
11:26
Speaker 1: We need to explain a little bit about this game
11:28
Speaker 1: and what it was supposed to be and what it
11:30
Speaker 1: ended up being, because in the Netflix documentary Jim Riley
11:35
Speaker 1: basically it's like, well, the first thing they created a
11:37
Speaker 1: demo called Scene of the Crime and it was a
11:40
Speaker 1: detective game, and uh, Hasbro liked it, like I said,
11:46
Speaker 1: and but they had a big problem because he the
11:49
Speaker 1: original idea that Jim had was to have ninjas, and
11:53
Speaker 1: he's like, it'd be great. These ninjas come in, they
11:55
Speaker 1: got throwing stars, they've got weapons, and they're doing all
11:57
Speaker 1: this stuff and you can control it and it's it's
12:01
Speaker 1: super cool. And Hasbro was like, wait a minute, we
12:04
Speaker 1: can't have what we call reproducible violence. So anything that
12:08
Speaker 1: a kid like, kids love throwing stars, and we can't
12:10
Speaker 1: show ninjas throwing throwing stars into people because the kid
12:13
Speaker 1: will go and do that. You can't have a knife
12:15
Speaker 1: because the kid can go get a knife out of
12:17
Speaker 1: a drawer. It's got to be something that a kid
12:19
Speaker 1: cannot reproduce. So so they said, okay, well, how about
12:22
Speaker 1: what if the ninja's turn out to be and I'm sorry,
12:26
Speaker 1: I know ninja is the plural of ninja. Sorry, what
12:30
Speaker 1: if they turned out to be vampires? And Hasbro said,
12:34
Speaker 1: I kind of like where you're going with this, but
12:38
Speaker 1: kids can still like bite people on the neck. What
12:40
Speaker 1: I think it came the other way though, I think
12:42
Speaker 1: that was a note from Hasbro, wasn't I'm pretty sure
12:45
Speaker 1: they were like, what if they were vampires? And Jim
12:48
Speaker 1: Riley was like, Okay, I guess I can do that
12:51
Speaker 1: biting people's necks, and then Hasbro was like, I can't
12:54
Speaker 1: do that because the kids can bite next to So
12:56
Speaker 1: what they found and this is a great metaphor for
13:00
Speaker 1: the Night Trap overall, what the ninja originally or what
13:05
Speaker 1: they turned out to be in the end, we're loping
13:09
Speaker 1: vampires who used what looked like a Ghostbusters pro tom
13:13
Speaker 1: pack with a caller of the kind that that Arnold
13:17
Speaker 1: Schwarzeneger was wearing at the beginning of Running Man, like
13:21
Speaker 1: a clamp sort of yes on the end and that
13:23
Speaker 1: that is what they used to draw the blood from
13:27
Speaker 1: the hapless teens who you were in charge of protecting
13:32
Speaker 1: as night trap. Yeah, so what Hasbro did was they
13:36
Speaker 1: noted it to death and neutered it to death because
13:40
Speaker 1: they said He even was like, all right, I can
13:43
Speaker 1: do vampires. They can run around and hurt people, and
13:45
Speaker 1: they said, no, no no, they can't even run around to
13:47
Speaker 1: scare if they're fast. So they came up with Augur's
13:51
Speaker 1: who In the game, they're described as vampires who had
13:55
Speaker 1: been half bled and left to die, so they are
13:58
Speaker 1: not quite vampires, but they aren't human either, and that
14:03
Speaker 1: makes them lopy and lumbery instead of being able to
14:06
Speaker 1: move fast. And if you see them, they look like
14:09
Speaker 1: they're wearing garbage bags. They're lumbering around. They're drawing the
14:13
Speaker 1: blood using a troll car. Is what the name of
14:16
Speaker 1: that thing was. Because it was definitely its own thing.
14:19
Speaker 1: It was its own thing, and it's funny. In the documentary,
14:22
Speaker 1: Jim Riley was like, in the end, he said this
14:26
Speaker 1: tro car, which you know, it didn't show it explicitly.
14:29
Speaker 1: It showed the clamp going around the neck and this
14:31
Speaker 1: little drill inside of a shaft start and then sort
14:35
Speaker 1: of moving and then blood being drawn, but it didn't
14:38
Speaker 1: like going in the neck or anything. But he said
14:40
Speaker 1: what they ended up with, he said to me, was
14:41
Speaker 1: something far creepier than a vampire biting someone's net. But
14:46
Speaker 1: they were like, it's not reproducible though, so it's fine.
14:48
Speaker 1: And it's also it's weird that Hasbro is so fixated
14:51
Speaker 1: on not including reproducible violence because apparently they saw um
14:57
Speaker 1: Night Trap as a way too interest adults, because they
15:02
Speaker 1: had apparently found out during focus group testing of seeing
15:06
Speaker 1: the crime. I believe that the parents who were in
15:09
Speaker 1: the room or were part of the focus group, we're saying,
15:12
Speaker 1: like I really kind of like this like a TV show,
15:14
Speaker 1: but I get to control it because it looked like
15:16
Speaker 1: something that they understood, and so Hasbro was like, Okay,
15:21
Speaker 1: this has been like a kid's thing up to this point.
15:23
Speaker 1: Maybe we can finally crack into the adult market with
15:26
Speaker 1: this stuff. So it's weird that they that they kidified
15:30
Speaker 1: it to death if they were trying to use it
15:33
Speaker 1: to capture adults, but maybe they were like, it has
15:36
Speaker 1: to go both ways in case adults don't like it. Well,
15:40
Speaker 1: I think in the documentary they make the point that
15:42
Speaker 1: hasbro was. I think the adults were looming out there
15:46
Speaker 1: as a possibility, but they were like, adults will never
15:48
Speaker 1: play video games. So what they really wanted until they
15:51
Speaker 1: grow up and then continue to play video games. Well,
15:54
Speaker 1: they really were after was a teenage market which didn't
15:57
Speaker 1: fully exist at this point, like an old like sixteen
16:01
Speaker 1: and seventeen year old boys, which is why they put
16:05
Speaker 1: sorority girls in like a nighty at a slumber party.
16:08
Speaker 1: Wasn't all in an effort to sort of TOI late,
16:11
Speaker 1: you know, people like me right, and it worked like
16:15
Speaker 1: a charm. I had never heard of it back then
16:16
Speaker 1: because you just you would play night Trap in Netflix
16:19
Speaker 1: and chill by yourself. So uh, they actually had to
16:24
Speaker 1: shoot this like a movie. You know, they shot it
16:26
Speaker 1: in Culver City on a sound stage. And what they
16:29
Speaker 1: would do back then for and you know that there
16:31
Speaker 1: were more full motion games of the time, and you
16:34
Speaker 1: would try and cast one recognizable face among this cast
16:39
Speaker 1: to sort of they called it the anchor, to like
16:41
Speaker 1: all right, well this has got so and so in it.
16:43
Speaker 1: And who did they cast for night Trap? Dane and
16:45
Speaker 1: Plato from from Different Strokes. Yeh, Kimberly, who passed away
16:50
Speaker 1: very tragically. Man, I was reading about her life. She yeah,
16:54
Speaker 1: hard sad life, very tragic story. Yeah it is. It's
16:58
Speaker 1: very sad. And they actually went back and rule her
17:00
Speaker 1: death is suicide later did you know that. I don't
17:02
Speaker 1: know if I knew that. Yeah, she died by suicide
17:04
Speaker 1: ultimately because she overdoes dug. Yeah, soma, I believe, which
17:09
Speaker 1: is like a generic lore tab interesting, which I'm think
17:15
Speaker 1: you really have to try, Like, I don't think that's
17:17
Speaker 1: an accidental thing, which is probably why they did that.
17:20
Speaker 1: But it was at a family reunion in Oklahoma, which
17:25
Speaker 1: I'm like, god, man, that's that's just a sad ending.
17:28
Speaker 1: And her son actually died by suicide as well later on.
17:31
Speaker 1: I think I knew that, like not super long ago, right,
17:34
Speaker 1: like yeah. In the two thousand tens, yeah, man, very sad,
17:37
Speaker 1: but yeah. Dana Plato was cast as that anchor. She
17:42
Speaker 1: played Kelly, who was a secret agent who was had
17:46
Speaker 1: infiltrated the house. She was undercover. Yeah, she's undercover, and
17:49
Speaker 1: she would talk right to camera and say things like
17:51
Speaker 1: you've got to get to the other room because the
17:53
Speaker 1: augers are after whoever married, Yeah, go help her? Um. Yeah,
17:57
Speaker 1: and we should say also so that the group of
18:00
Speaker 1: crime fighters that she was a part of was called SCAT,
18:04
Speaker 1: the Special Control Attack Team Uh SCAT uh. And then
18:10
Speaker 1: I don't know if we also said so the people
18:12
Speaker 1: who own the house had invited this group of teens
18:16
Speaker 1: that included undercover Dana Plato Kelly, who I which I
18:21
Speaker 1: saw admittedly on Wikipedia. This is this is a great
18:25
Speaker 1: example of night trap being night trap in the in
18:28
Speaker 1: the credits at the end, Kelly's name is spelled with
18:31
Speaker 1: a y on the end. In the players the users
18:35
Speaker 1: hand guide and I that's that's night trap for you
18:40
Speaker 1: right there. But the family that invited the kids, these
18:44
Speaker 1: teenage girls out to for a weekend at their house
18:48
Speaker 1: are actually themselves vampires with teeth everything. They not augurs,
18:52
Speaker 1: They're actually people. Know they brought them there for the
18:55
Speaker 1: augur right right to source their blood. I guess there
18:58
Speaker 1: is a pretty funny scene in it. When did you
19:00
Speaker 1: watch any of it? I watched the whole thing. I watched.
19:04
Speaker 1: I think grumpy Gamers did like a play through. Yeah,
19:07
Speaker 1: they have a full watch their their stuff too, and yeah,
19:10
Speaker 1: I've watched a lot of night trap stuff. The best
19:13
Speaker 1: part is when they're explaining in the game what the
19:15
Speaker 1: augers are and the woman says, you know, it's a
19:17
Speaker 1: vampire who's been blah blah blah, and one of the
19:19
Speaker 1: scat guys is in the background and he goes, you've
19:22
Speaker 1: got to be driving me. Like it was great. It
19:26
Speaker 1: was like, was this game made in nineteen eighty nine
19:29
Speaker 1: or nineteen seventy three? It was really confusing, like what
19:33
Speaker 1: era it was? So you said it was shot on
19:35
Speaker 1: a sound stage in in Culver City and it took
19:38
Speaker 1: like through thirty days almost um, but shoot a ton
19:42
Speaker 1: of stuff. Yes, because it was like a two fifty
19:45
Speaker 1: page script, which is incredibly long. Wow ed who helped
19:50
Speaker 1: us out with this woman? He points out that two
19:52
Speaker 1: hour movie might have a hundred and twenties page script.
19:55
Speaker 1: It's about a minute per page. Is as a rule
19:57
Speaker 1: of thumb, this is two fifty pages for a video
20:01
Speaker 1: game that was not very good. They didn't have a
20:03
Speaker 1: lot of dialogue, but there were a lot of different
20:06
Speaker 1: outcomes that could happen in one just one particular scene short.
20:10
Speaker 1: So if you shot a scene, you had to shoot
20:12
Speaker 1: it multiple times to get what you wanted, and then
20:14
Speaker 1: you had to shoot those multiple times multiple times for
20:17
Speaker 1: each outcome. Yeah, and we should say that the violence
20:21
Speaker 1: in the game, uh, like we said, is suggestive for
20:24
Speaker 1: the augers. You don't know, we see anything. The only
20:27
Speaker 1: real violence is when the augers are dispatched of But
20:30
Speaker 1: it is very much wildly coyote bugs, bunny sort of thing. Yeah,
20:34
Speaker 1: it's the definition of cartoonish. Yeah, Like there will be
20:37
Speaker 1: a murphy bed will flip them out of a window,
20:40
Speaker 1: or they'll just whoa like fall through a trap door
20:43
Speaker 1: the stairs, very like one of the things. If they're
20:45
Speaker 1: coming down the stairs, you can trap them by collapsing
20:48
Speaker 1: the stairs when they fall into the trap like smoke machine,
20:53
Speaker 1: pour smoke out of it. It's impossible that they weren't
20:58
Speaker 1: going for cartoonish violence. There's no right. Of course, the
21:02
Speaker 1: producers and directors we were trying to be like scary
21:06
Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form. But it was shot
21:08
Speaker 1: by Don Burgess, who was nominated for an Oscar less
21:12
Speaker 1: than a decade after uh Night Trap for Forrest Gump.
21:16
Speaker 1: So they had a real team. It wasn't just you know,
21:18
Speaker 1: they didn't you know, say all right, let's go out
21:21
Speaker 1: in the valley and use some uh like a porn crew, sure,
21:26
Speaker 1: and just do this thing like they had a real crew. No,
21:29
Speaker 1: and apparently has pro spent depending on who you ask,
21:32
Speaker 1: at least a million dollars on this. They said one
21:35
Speaker 1: five in the documentary, so they put some money into it,
21:38
Speaker 1: and it is not apparent on the screen. The sets
21:42
Speaker 1: look terrible. The doorways, I don't know if you notice,
21:45
Speaker 1: but any doorway, they didn't build the door down to
21:49
Speaker 1: the floor. They built the door down to like a
21:52
Speaker 1: one ft tall step over, so anytime someone opens the door,
21:57
Speaker 1: they step over this like one ft tall like wooden set.
22:01
Speaker 1: That's also I mean the said is it's basically like
22:03
Speaker 1: they could have repurposed it for growing pains or family
22:06
Speaker 1: ties or made or no, they probably would have said, like,
22:08
Speaker 1: this doesn't look good. I think they used it for
22:12
Speaker 1: small wonder how about that? Uh, there is no nudity,
22:16
Speaker 1: we should point out. But again it was never going
22:20
Speaker 1: to be kid friendly. But also when you when you
22:22
Speaker 1: will get to the court stuff, when you hear how
22:25
Speaker 1: it's described by these senators, it's so over the time,
22:27
Speaker 1: it's so over the top. Should we take a break?
22:32
Speaker 1: You don't want to take a break to you know,
22:33
Speaker 1: I'm excited and I'm ready to keep going. Let's take
22:35
Speaker 1: a break. All right, Well, I guess we should take
22:37
Speaker 1: a break by saying that Hasbro dumped the game. It's
22:42
Speaker 1: a nice cliffhanger. Hasbro dumped the game? Wait, well, Hasbro
22:46
Speaker 1: dumped the game or not? Okay, we'll find out right
22:49
Speaker 1: after this. Okay, chuck cliffhanger ants or time. Hasbro dumped
23:17
Speaker 1: the game because it wasn't that great. But the big
23:21
Speaker 1: reason was because c d ram Technology started up and
23:25
Speaker 1: they were like, we we've got VHS technology and we
23:28
Speaker 1: stuck a million five into this turkey, like, let's just
23:30
Speaker 1: dump it. And that should have been the end of it,
23:32
Speaker 1: not just night Trap, but the whole Control Vision thing
23:35
Speaker 1: that that night, the whole platform that Night Trap was
23:37
Speaker 1: just going to be a game on totally gone CD
23:41
Speaker 1: ROM killed it. Hasbro said forget it. The thing is,
23:44
Speaker 1: the people who worked on designing this game said no, no, no, no,
23:48
Speaker 1: hass being shortsighted. It's too good this game in particular,
23:52
Speaker 1: maybe control Vision is granted, the VHS thing, we're gonna
23:56
Speaker 1: just forget about that, but this game is too groundbreaking
24:00
Speaker 1: to just let die. So they actually went to Hasbro
24:03
Speaker 1: and said, how much will you sell us the footage,
24:05
Speaker 1: the code, the whole shebang for night Trap for and
24:08
Speaker 1: the designers actually bought the game from Hasbro and took
24:12
Speaker 1: it and founded their own company, Digital Pictures. You know
24:15
Speaker 1: how much they sold it for. But I couldn't fund
24:17
Speaker 1: didn't find it either. Um, I would guess peanuts. Basically,
24:21
Speaker 1: they probably were like, I don't ever want to hear
24:23
Speaker 1: the words night or trapped together again to get it
24:26
Speaker 1: out of here. Um. But these these designers, developers, directors, writers,
24:30
Speaker 1: everybody got together form Digital Pictures and bought it and
24:33
Speaker 1: started developing night Track, ironically for cd ROM, which is
24:39
Speaker 1: the very, the very type of media. Yeah that killed
24:45
Speaker 1: it in the first place. Yeah, But by Jim's telling
24:49
Speaker 1: on the documentary, I don't know if they were already
24:51
Speaker 1: going cd ROM or if it was initiated by Sega.
24:55
Speaker 1: But he got a call, he said, out of the
24:57
Speaker 1: blue from Sega, who had their aiming system at the time,
25:01
Speaker 1: Sega Genesis and then Sega c D was an add
25:04
Speaker 1: on system featuring this new cd ROM technology. And he said,
25:08
Speaker 1: they got a call, they said, hey, you want to
25:10
Speaker 1: develop this for cd ROM And uh, he probably got
25:14
Speaker 1: a good laugh out about about that, and the irony
25:17
Speaker 1: and then said sure, because night Trap must live. Yes,
25:20
Speaker 1: this guy is dedicated to night Trap living. If there's
25:23
Speaker 1: one thing that he wants to keep alive in the world,
25:26
Speaker 1: it is night Trap. That's right. So Um, they started
25:30
Speaker 1: developing it for CD ROM. Uh. It was a step
25:33
Speaker 1: up for sure, from what I can tell, like the
25:36
Speaker 1: graphics worked a lot better. Um. The problem is is
25:39
Speaker 1: this is nine two was when it was finally released
25:44
Speaker 1: as a CD ROM game. Yeah, they had shot all
25:46
Speaker 1: this footage in the late eighties, but it looked like
25:50
Speaker 1: the late seventies. There was a big difference between style wise.
25:56
Speaker 1: It was a parent visually apparent and immediately apparent to anybody,
26:00
Speaker 1: say a video game playing age. That was a big
26:03
Speaker 1: strike against night Trap to begin with. But probably the
26:06
Speaker 1: biggest stripe of all was that it wasn't a highly
26:10
Speaker 1: playable game. It was not a good game, and it
26:13
Speaker 1: probably would have just kind of faded away like it sold.
26:16
Speaker 1: I guess enough that it qualified as like a note
26:21
Speaker 1: not a disaster. Uh. They at least did more than
26:24
Speaker 1: break even, but it probably would have just fallen into
26:27
Speaker 1: the dustbin of history had it not been for Um
26:31
Speaker 1: Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut and Senator Herb Cole of Wisconsin,
26:36
Speaker 1: a couple of Democrats who created this crusade about violent
26:40
Speaker 1: video games and I think three yeah, and so this
26:46
Speaker 1: very much mirrored if you listen to our Satanic Panic
26:49
Speaker 1: episodes and the p MRC and music label m p
26:52
Speaker 1: a A m p a A like this was all
26:54
Speaker 1: the time when everyone was saying, hey, listen, we need
26:57
Speaker 1: to start at least labeling the stuff. Its parents know
27:00
Speaker 1: what their kids are doing. And um, just watch a
27:04
Speaker 1: little bit. You know, there's all kinds of it was
27:06
Speaker 1: in the Netflix documentary, but there's all sorts of stuff
27:08
Speaker 1: on YouTube about these hearings where they're talking about the
27:11
Speaker 1: disgusting trash and the filth and the hyper violence, and
27:15
Speaker 1: it's like, it's really not that violent. So so here's
27:18
Speaker 1: the thing they were. They went after Moral Kombat, which
27:22
Speaker 1: was super violent, it really was. And they went after
27:25
Speaker 1: night Trap, which was again cartoonish. Not a drop of
27:29
Speaker 1: blood spills from a person's body, right, um, but it
27:32
Speaker 1: had ladies and lingerie one. Yes, okay, I'm not defending
27:37
Speaker 1: any kind of violence against women, of course, not defending
27:40
Speaker 1: objectifying women. But Night Trap was unfairly railroaded because for
27:49
Speaker 1: some reason. I think probably because it was um, it
27:54
Speaker 1: was film, it was people, Like the people were controlling people.
27:59
Speaker 1: That was the different because there was there were a
28:02
Speaker 1: hundred exploitation movies and horror movies by this point, two
28:06
Speaker 1: hundred three hundred. It was a thousand times worse than this.
28:11
Speaker 1: But the fact that you were controlling yet they never said,
28:15
Speaker 1: and they make a big point about this in the documentary,
28:18
Speaker 1: like you weren't doing the violence, Like the whole point
28:21
Speaker 1: of the game was to stop the augurs. That's like,
28:24
Speaker 1: you weren't the person doing the augur and preventing the violence. Yeah.
28:27
Speaker 1: I guess that's why they called him augurs because it
28:29
Speaker 1: was kind of like an augur. The tool was, Yeah,
28:31
Speaker 1: that's what crowbar to bar what was it called cro Carr. Yeah.
28:37
Speaker 1: But yeah, and they never I mean he Jim Riley
28:40
Speaker 1: was like they clearly never even played the game. Yeah. No,
28:42
Speaker 1: they were talking about the cover of the thing was
28:45
Speaker 1: laurid they didn't like to cover of the box. Yeah
28:47
Speaker 1: they Yeah, they definitely hadn't played the game. It was
28:50
Speaker 1: just impossible from what they were saying, it happens in
28:52
Speaker 1: the game. Uh. And the big one was like you
28:55
Speaker 1: were saying that it um it let players carry out
29:00
Speaker 1: sexual violence against women. No, you do the opposite of that.
29:04
Speaker 1: There's violence that is carried out by the augers if
29:07
Speaker 1: you don't do it right, if you if you're not
29:10
Speaker 1: good at the game, if you lose, yes, exactly. But
29:12
Speaker 1: even then, like even in the most disturbing scene, which
29:15
Speaker 1: was the one with the lady in the in the
29:17
Speaker 1: ninety looking in the mirror, the augers come in behind
29:20
Speaker 1: her and it's for sure creepy looking at first, but
29:23
Speaker 1: you know, then they get out the croke car I
29:26
Speaker 1: can't remember crow car, and she's like, ahh and it's
29:30
Speaker 1: like the worst B movie. And then they just sort
29:32
Speaker 1: of drag her over the threshold of one of those doors,
29:35
Speaker 1: I would say, gently escorted through the like you don't
29:39
Speaker 1: see any of the violence even it's all just suggested. Yes.
29:42
Speaker 1: But again, Night Trick got lumped in with Mortal Kombat
29:46
Speaker 1: and um because of this, because it was very clear
29:50
Speaker 1: that the riding was on the wall. The media has
29:53
Speaker 1: a really great track record of saying, oh God, if
29:56
Speaker 1: we don't come up with a rating system ourselves, Congress
29:59
Speaker 1: is gonna impose it on us. And so they came
30:01
Speaker 1: up with the e s r B, the Entertainment Software
30:05
Speaker 1: Rating Board. That's right. It was an industry created self
30:10
Speaker 1: imposed rating system that was brought about in large part
30:15
Speaker 1: because of Nitri. Right, so Sega pulls the game. Eventually
30:21
Speaker 1: it became really popular because of these senatorial hearings, which
30:24
Speaker 1: is what always happens. Yes, that's exactly right. It was
30:27
Speaker 1: starting to fade away. It would have been lost to history,
30:29
Speaker 1: and then the senators came in and we're like, it's
30:31
Speaker 1: go buy that game. Kids wanted to play it. But
30:34
Speaker 1: Sega did eventually pull it. UH Digital Pictures re released
30:38
Speaker 1: it as their own distributor and rated it M for mature.
30:45
Speaker 1: And that should have That should have also been the
30:49
Speaker 1: end of it, right, Yeah, I should have just kind
30:52
Speaker 1: of went away, especially after Sega pulled it, because it
30:55
Speaker 1: got pulled from KB Toys and Toys r US because
30:57
Speaker 1: the kids. But like you're saying, it was still around
30:59
Speaker 1: and when Sega pol there was like you couldn't find
31:01
Speaker 1: it anyway. It should have been the end. And then
31:04
Speaker 1: in two thousan fourteen, Tom Riley, Jim Riley, Jim Uh
31:09
Speaker 1: Jim Riley started a Kickstarter and said we're gonna resurrect
31:14
Speaker 1: Night Trap. All we need is three hundred and thirty
31:16
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. People are gonna go crazy for this. Yeah,
31:21
Speaker 1: it's gonna be the greatest kickstarter in the history of kickstarters.
31:25
Speaker 1: And it was not the greatest kickstarter ever. It was
31:28
Speaker 1: a really, really bad kickstarter that had a lot of criticism, skepticism,
31:33
Speaker 1: and ultimately only garnered I think about forty dollars when
31:37
Speaker 1: they were after three and that. Yeah, so that obviously
31:42
Speaker 1: was the end of night Trap, right, that was not
31:44
Speaker 1: the end of night Trap, the bad game that refused
31:47
Speaker 1: to die. Uh. In sixteen, there was a video on
31:50
Speaker 1: YouTube that showed someone playing night Trap on their telephone
31:53
Speaker 1: on their smartphone, and so, I don't know if it
31:56
Speaker 1: was Jim Riley or one of the original devs saw
31:59
Speaker 1: it and was like, what is going on? You can't
32:02
Speaker 1: play night Trap on a smartphone because it was never
32:05
Speaker 1: developed that the technology, and let's that smartphone is playing
32:08
Speaker 1: a CD that I don't know about in the background.
32:11
Speaker 1: And they got in touch with the person. His name
32:13
Speaker 1: was Tyler Hogel and he was a mobile game programmer
32:16
Speaker 1: who followed was a fan of the original is like
32:20
Speaker 1: in a cult fan way. That's a deep cut at
32:22
Speaker 1: that time super deep cut and then basically said I'm
32:25
Speaker 1: gonna get a playable version hacked together for smartphones and
32:30
Speaker 1: did it like semi successfully. Yeah. Um so he basically
32:36
Speaker 1: created this just on his own. And then once the
32:40
Speaker 1: video surface and the original developers Jim Riley and some
32:44
Speaker 1: of the others got in touch with him. Um, they said, here, man,
32:47
Speaker 1: here's here's We lost the code years ago. No one
32:50
Speaker 1: has any idea where it is, but we do have
32:53
Speaker 1: original thirty five millimeter footage which is stamp, which is
32:57
Speaker 1: really critical because you have to wait. As we'll talk
33:00
Speaker 1: about how to play it in a second. The timing
33:02
Speaker 1: is everything between the video and the players controls. Um.
33:06
Speaker 1: So with the time stamps, Tyler Hogel was able to
33:09
Speaker 1: basically create a new modern anniversary edition. Um that just
33:15
Speaker 1: is actually kind of a as far as night trap
33:17
Speaker 1: goes as the best night trap that there could possibly be. Yeah,
33:21
Speaker 1: that was the dish rated T for teens this time preposterous,
33:28
Speaker 1: which is funny. Uh And apparently the um you know
33:31
Speaker 1: you said he lost the code, but he was like
33:33
Speaker 1: that that's really easy. Like I've got all this footage
33:35
Speaker 1: that's time stamp. It's like I can code this thing
33:38
Speaker 1: in my sleep, basically, he basically did. So there's a
33:41
Speaker 1: edition um of night Trap, which apparently Nintendo has a
33:47
Speaker 1: version of, which is kind of funny because at the
33:50
Speaker 1: time of those Senate hearing, Nintendo famously said they would
33:55
Speaker 1: never allow night Trap on their platform, and they did. Yeah,
34:00
Speaker 1: and Nintendo is still sort of known as the more
34:03
Speaker 1: family friendly unit. I think they even had a bloodless
34:06
Speaker 1: Mortal Kombat if I'm not mistaken, or maybe it was
34:10
Speaker 1: a setting. Oh I think yes, that brings a bell.
34:13
Speaker 1: Did you see the new Mortal Kombat movie? Did I
34:16
Speaker 1: have seen zero Mortal Kombat movies? Uh? The new one
34:19
Speaker 1: just came out on hbm X. Is it good? It's
34:22
Speaker 1: pretty good. I mean, did you play the game. You
34:24
Speaker 1: have nostalgia for the game? Sure, yeah, you should watch it.
34:27
Speaker 1: It's good enough. It looks good and there's great fights
34:29
Speaker 1: and then some nice Easter eggs and it's like the
34:32
Speaker 1: Mortal Kombat movie that should have been because they made
34:35
Speaker 1: one previously that wasn't that great. Yeah, from the nineties. Yeah,
34:38
Speaker 1: but this one looks it's pretty cool. Okay, you rip
34:42
Speaker 1: out spines and hearts and I'll go. And the way
34:45
Speaker 1: they do the blood. It looks just like the game.
34:47
Speaker 1: Is it rated T for team It's rated are because
34:51
Speaker 1: it's a movie. But we mentioned that that it wasn't
34:53
Speaker 1: that great of a game because of the game play. Um.
34:56
Speaker 1: One of the biggest problems was that you've got all
35:00
Speaker 1: these stories going on in these different windows, but you
35:05
Speaker 1: can only kind of control one at a time, So
35:08
Speaker 1: when you're controlling one scene, other stuff is going on,
35:11
Speaker 1: and we mentioned that makes it impossible to follow the
35:14
Speaker 1: actual story, so it suffers there. But there's also this
35:18
Speaker 1: thing where you have a red light, a green light,
35:20
Speaker 1: and a yellow light, and when these lights turn on
35:24
Speaker 1: if it's the right color light, is when you engage
35:26
Speaker 1: the trap button, and that's when the auger will flip
35:29
Speaker 1: out the window. But it has to be timed right, uh.
35:32
Speaker 1: And apparently while you're in these other rooms, if you
35:35
Speaker 1: want to follow the story for a couple of minutes,
35:37
Speaker 1: they will change the codes, the color codes. So if
35:42
Speaker 1: you're in another room, they'll be like, the code is
35:44
Speaker 1: now green, and you don't know that because you're not
35:46
Speaker 1: watching it, so you go back and you think the
35:48
Speaker 1: code is red, and so you're losing the game. Yeah,
35:51
Speaker 1: because you have to have the right security code activated
35:54
Speaker 1: to activate the traps, because this is the Martin's family's
35:57
Speaker 1: security cameras. The Martin family, the Empires are the ones
36:01
Speaker 1: who created the traps. You just hacked into it thanks
36:04
Speaker 1: to your pals at SCAT, you're basically freelancing for. But
36:08
Speaker 1: when they change those codes, it doesn't show on screen.
36:13
Speaker 1: The character tells another character to go down to the
36:16
Speaker 1: basement and change the code different screen that you may
36:18
Speaker 1: not be watching, yeah, in a different room that you
36:20
Speaker 1: can't hear or see or anything like that, because you're
36:23
Speaker 1: in the living room and this conversation is happening in
36:25
Speaker 1: the kitchen. That is not a thing where it's like, oh,
36:29
Speaker 1: that's a cool little little you know that part of
36:32
Speaker 1: the gameplay that is a maddening Yes, it's a bug, right, Um,
36:36
Speaker 1: so that that that's a big part. That's a big
36:38
Speaker 1: problem with it as well. And then also, um, you
36:41
Speaker 1: don't have to get a perfect you don't have to
36:43
Speaker 1: play a perfect game to win. But if if any
36:47
Speaker 1: of the augers get any of the characters, you lose.
36:51
Speaker 1: If too many augers started to accumulate, you lose and
36:55
Speaker 1: you get yelled at by the leader of SCAT. It's
36:57
Speaker 1: kind of funny. He gets really mad at you for
36:59
Speaker 1: screwing up um. But to win, it's you're basically memorizing
37:04
Speaker 1: where to go win and it happens, especially towards the end,
37:08
Speaker 1: really quick. So like you'll, you know, set off a
37:11
Speaker 1: trap in one room and you have to go remember
37:14
Speaker 1: what room you're supposed to go to to get the
37:16
Speaker 1: trap set for the next ager um And it's not
37:19
Speaker 1: really fun. It gets really intense towards the end, but
37:22
Speaker 1: not necessarily fun. Yeah, I mean, hats off to the
37:25
Speaker 1: grabster because he actually played this thing and tried to
37:27
Speaker 1: play it, which was more than I was willing to do.
37:30
Speaker 1: But I did watch the walk throughs. Did you see
37:32
Speaker 1: the night trap video or the lip sync video? There's
37:36
Speaker 1: actually a theme song night Trap right look out behind
37:41
Speaker 1: You or something like that that one of the characters
37:43
Speaker 1: does an air guitar tennis rack get lip sync to dancing,
37:48
Speaker 1: while the other characters have to watch and pretend like
37:50
Speaker 1: they're not mortified with embarrassment at seeing this. It's it's
37:54
Speaker 1: really something. Oh man, I kept waiting in the documentary
37:57
Speaker 1: for a big reveal that, like George Clooney was one
37:59
Speaker 1: of the augers or but Dana Plato is about as
38:03
Speaker 1: you know, a list as it got at the time,
38:05
Speaker 1: which was probably C list at the time. Yeah, you
38:09
Speaker 1: got anything else? I got nothing else? Night Trap? Go
38:12
Speaker 1: seek it out, Night Trap, look out behind you. That's right. Uh.
38:16
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about Night Trap, you
38:18
Speaker 1: don't even have to play. You can just go on
38:19
Speaker 1: YouTube and watched basically the movie. Uh. And even then,
38:22
Speaker 1: it's still generally incoherent. Um. But since I said it's
38:26
Speaker 1: still generally incoherent, it's time for a listener mail. I'm
38:32
Speaker 1: gonna call this speed reading trauma. Hey, guys, I should
38:36
Speaker 1: start with the obligatory long time, first time, finally a
38:38
Speaker 1: reason to email, and here I am so hello. I
38:41
Speaker 1: didn't think that a short stuff on speed reading, of
38:43
Speaker 1: all things, would trigger my first email, but here we go.
38:45
Speaker 1: Halfway through the show, I was flooded with a vivid
38:48
Speaker 1: memory of speed reading in my elementary school gifted class.
38:52
Speaker 1: Speaking of other scams. Uh, this is in the early nineties.
38:55
Speaker 1: My teacher would drag a transparency with a printed passage. Oh,
38:58
Speaker 1: I kind of remember this across an overhead projector at
39:01
Speaker 1: increasing speeds, and after each pass we would take a
39:04
Speaker 1: comprehension test. I had no idea that this was a scam.
39:09
Speaker 1: I just thought it was a standard part of the
39:11
Speaker 1: curriculum that I wasn't very good at, and I felt
39:13
Speaker 1: terrible about it. Then again, in my Louisiana public school
39:16
Speaker 1: curriculum curriculum, we also had to get a hunting license
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Speaker 1: and shoot clay pigeons as part of Louisiana history in
39:22
Speaker 1: middle school. I grew up shooting clay pigeons really for school, No, okay,
39:28
Speaker 1: I would like to try that. It's cool ski shooting. Yeah,
39:30
Speaker 1: that's another way to put it. Looks just stand behind.
39:34
Speaker 1: That's the rule, right basically anyway, Thanks so much for
39:38
Speaker 1: the entertainment and education entertainment, especially this past year. I've
39:42
Speaker 1: often had you in my ear while I work from
39:44
Speaker 1: home to feel a little less solitary. That is from
39:46
Speaker 1: Kate Ellis Jensen in Boulder, Colorado. Thanks a lot, Kate,
39:50
Speaker 1: that was a good email. Very sorry to set off
39:52
Speaker 1: the trauma, but I'm glad that it's past. I'm presuming
39:55
Speaker 1: it past. Yeah, I kind of remember that happening, but
39:58
Speaker 1: I certainly was not in a gifted class. It doesn't
40:00
Speaker 1: sound like a very fun procedure. It kind of sounds
40:03
Speaker 1: like rape fines revealing himself to Philip Seymour Hoffman and
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Speaker 1: Red Dragon. Do you see Yeah, you know I'm talking
40:12
Speaker 1: about We've talked about that recently. Yeah, the wheelchair and
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Speaker 1: fire scene experious, hilarious, um, but also really funny if
40:21
Speaker 1: you stop and think about that. Movie just danced on
40:24
Speaker 1: the line and sometimes it went over well. If you
40:28
Speaker 1: want to know more about Red Dragon, oh wait, already
40:31
Speaker 1: said that stuff. If you want to get in touch
40:32
Speaker 1: with this like Kate did, then you can email us
40:35
Speaker 1: like Kate did at Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com.
40:43
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio.
40:46
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
40:49
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.