Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 406] Living Colour: Reclaiming Rock’s Black Roots with Preston Frazier

Transcript

[EP 406] Living Colour: Reclaiming Rock’s Black Roots with Preston Frazier · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

0:00
Speaker 1: The greatest contribution that Living Color has is bringing rock
0:04
Speaker 1: back to its roots in terms of some of the
0:06
Speaker 1: blue stuff that you don't have to hear a pop radio.
0:10
Speaker 1: Yet it's making it modern in terms of giving you
0:12
Speaker 1: that harder, hard rock edge. It's also allowing especially blacks
0:17
Speaker 1: African Americans who don't listen to rock normally, to hear
0:20
Speaker 1: a band which is influenced by their elders. Also has
0:24
Speaker 1: an influence on their temporary music. We're totally rock and roll.
0:30
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading little hands this,
0:32
Speaker 1: It's time to rock and roll roll out. Are totally booked.
0:41
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Booked on Rock conversations with authors, musicians
0:45
Speaker 2: and insiders revealing the stories behind classic rock's greatest songs,
0:49
Speaker 2: albums and artists. And if you enjoy the show you
0:52
Speaker 2: want to support it. You can sign up for the
0:54
Speaker 2: Booked on Rock Backstage Pass for just five dollars a month,
0:58
Speaker 2: get every episode commercial free and before everyone else. Just
1:01
Speaker 2: use the link in the show notes or visit booked
1:03
Speaker 2: on Rock dot com now onto the show. Living Color
1:07
Speaker 2: was more than a groundbreaking rock band. They challenged the
1:11
Speaker 2: industries narrow definitions while confronting racism, politics, identity and power
1:17
Speaker 2: through fearless, genre defying music. Today, I'm joined by author
1:21
Speaker 2: Preston Fraser to discuss his new book, Shade of Living Color,
1:24
Speaker 2: which traces the band's journey from New York clubs to
1:28
Speaker 2: Grammy winning success, reinvention, and an enduring place in modern
1:32
Speaker 2: rock history. Welcome back to the show, Preston.
1:35
Speaker 1: Eric's great to be here. It's good to see you again.
1:38
Speaker 2: I love Living Color, so excited to talk about this band.
1:43
Speaker 2: You are rocking the Living Color shirt. When did you
1:46
Speaker 2: become a fan?
1:47
Speaker 1: Oh? Wow? So I think I mentioned in the book
1:50
Speaker 1: that I first saw them when they are opening for
1:52
Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones. I think it was Steve Will's tour
1:55
Speaker 1: or something like that and the late eighties, early nineties,
2:00
Speaker 1: and of course I heard all the big hits, so
2:01
Speaker 1: that's really when I became a fan. But after seeing
2:04
Speaker 1: them on stage at RFK Stadium in Washington, DC, and
2:08
Speaker 1: I thought, wow, this is fantastic. They were They were
2:12
Speaker 1: They were so dynamic and the music was great.
2:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll get to that connection with the Stones
2:17
Speaker 2: more than just they opened for the Stones, We'll get
2:20
Speaker 2: to that. And they started as a three piece Vernon
2:23
Speaker 2: Reid on guitar and vocals. You described the incarnation as lean,
2:27
Speaker 2: insistent and searching. What was Vernon searching for musically before
2:33
Speaker 2: Corey Glover completed the band's identity.
2:36
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I think Vernon has always been
2:38
Speaker 1: searching for something new, for something at the next level,
2:41
Speaker 1: for something different, and he had a pretty good career
2:47
Speaker 1: before Living Color. He had worked with a number of people,
2:52
Speaker 1: including John Zorn. He had worked later with Bill Frizell,
2:56
Speaker 1: doing a really wonderful duet album with him, and he
2:59
Speaker 1: had formulated and founded the Rock the Black Rock Coalition
3:05
Speaker 1: in New York with journalist Greg Tate, who was an
3:10
Speaker 1: amazing person and also amazing musician. So Vernon has always
3:14
Speaker 1: been striving to progress, and he was hearing a sound
3:18
Speaker 1: in his head that he wasn't getting from his own
3:21
Speaker 1: music as a solo artist or as a sidement. So
3:25
Speaker 1: that's when he decided, Hey, I want to form a band.
3:27
Speaker 1: I want to format with some New Yorkers who are
3:29
Speaker 1: friends of mine. And that's really the genesism the three
3:32
Speaker 1: man Living Color.
3:34
Speaker 2: And you write that he believed black musicians could claim
3:36
Speaker 2: every inch of the rock territory they had been written
3:39
Speaker 2: out of how much of Living Color's formation was a
3:41
Speaker 2: musical mission and how much was a cultural one.
3:44
Speaker 1: Wow, I would say Eric it was probably a combination
3:48
Speaker 1: of both, an equal mix of both. And I don't
3:51
Speaker 1: think you can separate the music from a culture With
3:54
Speaker 1: Living Color, it is an integral part of who they are,
3:58
Speaker 1: and maybe it's an integral part of what rock music
4:00
Speaker 1: is because rock music is really based on blues, It's
4:03
Speaker 1: based on R and B and a lot of the
4:06
Speaker 1: early rock pioneers, some which we've been forgotten, are actually
4:10
Speaker 1: African American are black, So I think that goes hand
4:13
Speaker 1: in hand.
4:14
Speaker 2: The lineup shifted several times before Vernon, Corey Glover, Mudd Skillings,
4:18
Speaker 2: and Will Calhoun came together in nineteen eighty six. What
4:21
Speaker 2: did each member contribute that finally transformed Vernon's concept into
4:25
Speaker 2: a complete band.
4:26
Speaker 1: I think Corey's contributions are pretty obvious. He had an
4:29
Speaker 1: amazing voice that can really handle the hard rock sound
4:34
Speaker 1: that Vernon wanted. That Vernon wasn't as good as as
4:38
Speaker 1: e lead singer, but also has a R and B flair,
4:42
Speaker 1: soulful flare which you hear not only on all the
4:45
Speaker 1: Living Color albums, but Corey's solo work and the band
4:49
Speaker 1: works that he does outside of Living Color, so that
4:51
Speaker 1: was intrigral. Will Will Calhoun is a phenomena. He is
4:58
Speaker 1: a jazz drummer who could play heavy. He has a
5:02
Speaker 1: great sense of time as a as a rock drummer.
5:06
Speaker 1: He has a great feel as a rock drummer, and
5:08
Speaker 1: that double bass sell that he gets is pretty amazing.
5:11
Speaker 1: So he can play anything, and he he he's played
5:17
Speaker 1: everything world music. He's doing jazz right now. He is
5:21
Speaker 1: just phenomena. And then Ma's skilling is probably the biggest
5:27
Speaker 1: mystery to me the band. Of course, he did the
5:29
Speaker 1: first two albums and he's featureds from the compilations. Muz
5:34
Speaker 1: was a Bent is a fantastic bass player, very funky. Uh.
5:39
Speaker 1: He can do this straight ahead James Jamison type stuff
5:43
Speaker 1: and he can do the more experimental stuff. So I
5:45
Speaker 1: think that combination of those four really create a chemistry
5:49
Speaker 1: which is undeniable.
5:51
Speaker 2: Talk about the Black Rock Coalition, how important was it
5:54
Speaker 2: only to not only to Living Colors development, but the
5:56
Speaker 2: challenging the music industries narrow ideas about what black art
6:00
Speaker 2: were supposed to sound like.
6:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that was really the purpose. Eric that
6:03
Speaker 1: he wanted that Vernon and Greg take wanted to create
6:06
Speaker 1: something which not only brought some notice of black rock musicians,
6:14
Speaker 1: but also pushed the boundaries forward of rock music. And
6:18
Speaker 1: I think that was something that part of their initial
6:22
Speaker 1: plan is something which they're they're still doing in terms
6:27
Speaker 1: of bringing this music to light. The band what are
6:32
Speaker 1: they called Burnt Sugar, The Orchestra Chamber, I think it's
6:37
Speaker 1: called Burnt Sugar out of New York is something that
6:41
Speaker 1: Greg Tate and Vernon had co created together and still going,
6:45
Speaker 1: and that is a combination of a lot of musicians
6:49
Speaker 1: playing improvised rock, jazz and soul. So they really wanted
6:56
Speaker 1: to at the time rock the Black Rock Coalition, move
7:01
Speaker 1: black music forward and continue to have an avenue for
7:05
Speaker 1: rock music, for funk and soul, and it kind of
7:08
Speaker 1: meshles all together. And even today with the groups which
7:13
Speaker 1: fall under that umbrella of the Black Coalition, they're still
7:17
Speaker 1: doing that.
7:18
Speaker 2: They were so huge on MTV when that album came out,
7:20
Speaker 2: and I think back to early eighties when MTV did
7:24
Speaker 2: not play any black artist, so you can imagine the
7:27
Speaker 2: struggle they would have had that far back. But it
7:29
Speaker 2: was even a struggle in the late eighties, it just
7:32
Speaker 2: wasn't accepted.
7:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I've had friends who told me that
7:37
Speaker 1: black people didn't play rock, and why was I interested
7:40
Speaker 1: in rock? And why do I write rock books? And well,
7:44
Speaker 1: if you do your research, it's pretty obvious that black
7:48
Speaker 1: people have had an impact on American music. And if
7:53
Speaker 1: you look at some of the larger rock artists, the
7:57
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones, that is blues as Chicago Blues, rooted guns
8:02
Speaker 1: and Roses, It's rooted in the blues. It's all there.
8:06
Speaker 1: So it's just kind of Living Color was reclaiming what
8:12
Speaker 1: was accestrally theirs quite frankly.
8:15
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Mick Jaggernau those shows at the CBGB.
8:20
Speaker 2: You described those early shows as a crucible, and Mick
8:23
Speaker 2: attended one show in nineteen eighty seven. You write the
8:26
Speaker 2: Living Colored Plate as though the walls might crumble. What
8:29
Speaker 2: did Mick recognize in the band and how did he
8:31
Speaker 2: help them without attempting to reshape or control them either?
8:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, es exactly. He didn't really try to mold them
8:37
Speaker 1: into something they weren't, and he saw the urgency that
8:40
Speaker 1: the band had. The musicianship to Mick, I think some
8:45
Speaker 1: people and attendance at CBGB's was kind of obvious. You have,
8:49
Speaker 1: of course, you have one of the best guitars out
8:53
Speaker 1: there at the time is still on the best guitarists around,
8:55
Speaker 1: Vernie Reed. But you had a rhythm section which could
8:58
Speaker 1: play in the pocket, was extremely funky, and you had
9:02
Speaker 1: a singer who performed without a net. Corey was so
9:08
Speaker 1: dynamic and is so dynamic now that that chemistry that
9:12
Speaker 1: fired together really worked on stage. I think one of
9:16
Speaker 1: the questions that Mick may have had, and maybe any
9:21
Speaker 1: A and R man who saw the band at that time,
9:24
Speaker 1: was and they produced the same kind of passion in
9:29
Speaker 1: the studio, but knowing that the studio requires some discipline.
9:34
Speaker 1: You have to get take out for take, you have
9:36
Speaker 1: to get it down on tape, has to be consistent.
9:39
Speaker 1: Could they do that? And with re Calhoun's background studio
9:46
Speaker 1: work especially, they didn't have a doubt about that. And
9:50
Speaker 1: they were able to produce that first album really well.
9:53
Speaker 1: And of course Mick produced two of the songs on.
9:55
Speaker 2: An album right and he plays harmonica on Broken Hearts,
10:01
Speaker 2: which is a phenomen That whole album from start to finish,
10:05
Speaker 2: is absolutely perfect. It really is. Let's get into that
10:10
Speaker 2: one now, nineteen eighty eight is when Vivid came out,
10:13
Speaker 2: and it arrived during an era dominated by hair metal.
10:16
Speaker 2: Yet Cult of Personality became a major MTV and radio
10:21
Speaker 2: hit without resembling much else in the mainstream. Why was
10:24
Speaker 2: that song able to break through?
10:26
Speaker 1: Ultimate personality lyrically is so extremely strong. It's so relevant
10:33
Speaker 1: today in terms of what we're going through here in America.
10:37
Speaker 1: So you had the great lyric, you had a great video,
10:40
Speaker 1: which I mean, you can't discount the fact that the
10:42
Speaker 1: video had to impact of the song selling as much
10:45
Speaker 1: as it did. And you had an unbelievable, ferocious guitar
10:51
Speaker 1: book by Vernon Reid, and then you had this band
10:54
Speaker 1: of slamming behind him. I meanma Was and Calhou were
10:57
Speaker 1: just slamming it. But it was just so you had
11:01
Speaker 1: all the elements you need for a great saw and
11:04
Speaker 1: it's a great way to kick off an album. I
11:07
Speaker 1: think one of the keys to Vivid though, is that
11:10
Speaker 1: even though you have an outside producer mc Jagger for
11:14
Speaker 1: two tracks, this consistency from start to finish that album.
11:18
Speaker 1: And also you have that piece of touches of R
11:22
Speaker 1: and B touches of rap there as well as at
11:24
Speaker 1: hard rock edge.
11:26
Speaker 2: It's about New York City, and basically it captures different
11:30
Speaker 2: sides of the city at that time, right.
11:32
Speaker 1: It really does. And I mean at that time, New
11:35
Speaker 1: York City was in a pretty sad state. You had
11:40
Speaker 1: a crime, you had you had corruption and government, you
11:44
Speaker 1: had the city falling apart, but you also had some
11:48
Speaker 1: of what you have now, the pride of New Yorkers
11:51
Speaker 1: and the thought that things could come back, and that
11:56
Speaker 1: I think that shows throughout the album and throughout Living
11:59
Speaker 1: Colors discography as well. There's a lot of the songs
12:03
Speaker 1: are love letters to New York City. Cal personality is
12:08
Speaker 1: not necessarily love letters new York City, but it is
12:10
Speaker 1: a message which is supported by fantastic playing. And you
12:15
Speaker 1: mentioned the riff, Yeah, the riff is great. Then you
12:18
Speaker 1: get a Balls to the Wall solo which is incressible,
12:23
Speaker 1: unbelievable Glamour Boys.
12:26
Speaker 2: It's catchy, it's playful, but underneath that surface is a
12:29
Speaker 2: sharp critique of materialism and status. What exactly was Vernon
12:33
Speaker 2: observing and criticizing when he wrote it.
12:35
Speaker 1: And Glammo Boys is interesting because it really is, like
12:39
Speaker 1: you mentioned a song which the Christ's status and posing,
12:45
Speaker 1: which was something which was very possible, very very prominent
12:49
Speaker 1: back then. Yeah, it's clever, it's actually funny, and it
12:56
Speaker 1: has got another it's a song with another great hook.
13:01
Speaker 1: So the chorus is great, the shout I'm fierce, it
13:07
Speaker 1: is this fantastic. So I think it's so easy to
13:12
Speaker 1: get wrapped up in the riffs and the excellent rhythm
13:17
Speaker 1: section that you sometimes don't hear the lyric on first listen.
13:21
Speaker 1: The Glad Boys is a perfect example one you have
13:23
Speaker 1: to go back and say, wait a minute, there's something
13:25
Speaker 1: beyond the surface.
13:26
Speaker 2: And that's why it ages so well, because yeah, as
13:30
Speaker 2: a teenager, most teeners is like, yeah, I just love
13:32
Speaker 2: how it sounds. And then you get older and you
13:34
Speaker 2: start to read into these things and you really start
13:37
Speaker 2: to understand the complexity and the layers that are involved
13:41
Speaker 2: with their music. The eighty nine Steel Wheels tour you
13:43
Speaker 2: talked about that that gave Living Color extraordinary exposure, but
13:47
Speaker 2: it also brought them into the controversy throwning guns and
13:50
Speaker 2: Roses and the song one in a Million, What actually
13:53
Speaker 2: happened between Vernon and Axel Rose and how much of
13:55
Speaker 2: the supposed confrontation was manufactured by the press.
14:00
Speaker 1: The story really well quite frankly, and I think that
14:03
Speaker 1: most of it was manufactured by the press, and quite frankly,
14:09
Speaker 1: that wasn't necessarily a bad thing for either band. I mean,
14:12
Speaker 1: Guns and Roses at the time was a pretty big band.
14:14
Speaker 1: Are still a pretty big band actually, But I think
14:17
Speaker 1: that controversy really helped Living Color in that it showed
14:22
Speaker 1: their commitment to their identity. It showed their commandment to
14:27
Speaker 1: who they are in terms of being African American, and
14:31
Speaker 1: it showed that any weren't going to take crap from other.
14:33
Speaker 2: Bands that he had a problem with the lyrics and
14:35
Speaker 2: lyrics are really controversial, and in fact, I think they
14:40
Speaker 2: left it off with their box set Guns and Roses,
14:43
Speaker 2: if I remember correctly nineteen nineties times up, they deliberately
14:48
Speaker 2: avoided making Vivid too with this album. How much pressure
14:51
Speaker 2: did they face from Epic Records to repeat the sound
14:54
Speaker 2: and the commercial success of that debut?
14:56
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. I haven't talked to anyone
14:58
Speaker 1: from Epic. Well, well was at the records back then.
15:01
Speaker 1: I wonder what they thought the chances of that first album,
15:06
Speaker 1: Vivid being a huge success. And I know they had
15:09
Speaker 1: Mike Jagger whar it's too song of which of course
15:11
Speaker 1: will give them some cachet, But I don't think they
15:14
Speaker 1: had huge expectations, and the album did really well in
15:17
Speaker 1: the charts, and of course they got a grandy times Up.
15:22
Speaker 1: I don't think that the record company necessarily put pressure
15:24
Speaker 1: on Living Color as much as Living Color put pressure
15:27
Speaker 1: on Living Color, and that was reflected later with their
15:31
Speaker 1: there with mys leaving times Up. I don't know if
15:38
Speaker 1: it's my favorite Living Color album. It's probably my second
15:41
Speaker 1: favorite favorite Living Color album. But it is an album where,
15:46
Speaker 1: first of all, the band really had more cohesion and
15:53
Speaker 1: more unity in terms of the writing process. They had
15:58
Speaker 1: a feel for what kind of sound they wanted, and
16:02
Speaker 1: they were really blow wait by their success with Vivid,
16:07
Speaker 1: so I think that really helped them move forward and
16:10
Speaker 1: they didn't feel the pressure as much as they did
16:14
Speaker 1: going into the third.
16:15
Speaker 2: Album, Elvis is Dead, which is a great song. Little
16:19
Speaker 2: Richard appears on it. It's both humorous and historically significant. What
16:24
Speaker 2: statement was the band making about the way rock history
16:26
Speaker 2: celebrated Elvis while often minimizing its black originators.
16:31
Speaker 1: That's a very good play. I mean, the purpose part
16:33
Speaker 1: of the song is to bring attention, and I said
16:36
Speaker 1: Little Richard's rap actually about the impact that African Americans
16:42
Speaker 1: had on rock music and they don't want to be forgotten.
16:45
Speaker 1: And that's why you have that rap part there, you
16:48
Speaker 1: have that wonderful sax solo. I think it's an alto
16:55
Speaker 1: sax solo by Macio Parker too, another living legend, a
17:00
Speaker 1: rock living legend, another funk living legend on a song.
17:03
Speaker 1: So it kind of brings all that together and one
17:06
Speaker 1: song of people celebrating someone who who had developed taken
17:17
Speaker 1: from African American music and move that move rock forward.
17:23
Speaker 1: But the purpose of the song is ready for people
17:26
Speaker 1: not to forget where rock originated.
17:29
Speaker 2: There are a lot of great songs on that album
17:31
Speaker 2: as well. Just going through the track listing on Times
17:36
Speaker 2: Up here.
17:37
Speaker 1: Yeah there's no there's no filler on Times.
17:39
Speaker 2: Up, No Times Up. The opening track is great, but
17:43
Speaker 2: history lesson Love rears its ugly head. Elvis is dead.
17:48
Speaker 2: We mentioned Type I think was the lead single, which
17:51
Speaker 2: is my favorite song on the album. Yes, fantastic. Oh
17:54
Speaker 2: the guitar tone on that Let's see uh sowd you
18:01
Speaker 2: beautiful song. Christian Frasier is with us. He's the author
18:07
Speaker 2: of the brand new book Shade of living color. So
18:10
Speaker 2: you write that the band's relentless workload eventually became a
18:12
Speaker 2: form of self harm disguised as discipline. Vernon and Will
18:18
Speaker 2: later felt that a hiatus after Times Up might have
18:22
Speaker 2: prevented what followed. At what point did their work ethic
18:25
Speaker 2: begin damaging their relationships?
18:28
Speaker 1: Pretty much during the tour were Times Up. It was
18:33
Speaker 1: just it became a slug and it was relentless touring
18:37
Speaker 1: a lot of bands do when they're newer. They get
18:39
Speaker 1: out there in the road. They tour, and they tour,
18:41
Speaker 1: they tour, they tour. Then they're told they need to
18:43
Speaker 1: do another album and they tour, they tore, they tour,
18:46
Speaker 1: uh and usually tory is not conducive to writing. There's
18:51
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure for the band and continue to
18:53
Speaker 1: produce and be successful. You had a Grammy win for
18:57
Speaker 1: the first out, you had a Grammy win for the
19:00
Speaker 1: second album. You had top I think it was top
19:04
Speaker 1: ten sales for the first album and top thirty sales
19:08
Speaker 1: for the second for the second album, So that pressure
19:11
Speaker 1: to produce, to sell, to go on the road, and
19:15
Speaker 1: it was getting to them, and I think it got
19:19
Speaker 1: to Muzz a lot. I've never I've never talked to
19:22
Speaker 1: Hmuz about this, but I uh, I talked to Vernon
19:26
Speaker 1: very briefly. He didn't really go in any detail. But
19:29
Speaker 1: I think the pressure about producing constantly being on the
19:33
Speaker 1: road led to a division within the band, and Muz
19:38
Speaker 1: said he didn't want to do it anymore.
19:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was publicly attributed to creative differences, but you
19:43
Speaker 2: suggest that the reality involved the exhaustion, poor communication, the
19:48
Speaker 2: accumulated personal friction. What did they lose musically and personally
19:53
Speaker 2: when he left.
19:54
Speaker 1: Was they lost the continuality they had with the first
19:59
Speaker 1: two albums. Musically, they didn't lose anything. I mean, honestly,
20:05
Speaker 1: they didn't. Maybe the muscle is a good vocalist who's
20:07
Speaker 1: a good backing vocalist. He's probably a little bit better
20:10
Speaker 1: than Doug Wimbish for Doug is a good vocalist too,
20:13
Speaker 1: But in terms of the bass playing, Doug he's phenomenal.
20:22
Speaker 1: He was a Mick Jaggers solo band when Mick went
20:25
Speaker 1: on the road with Simon Phillips as a drummer. He's
20:28
Speaker 1: done so many great side projects with rap and R
20:32
Speaker 1: and B artists. So musically they didn't lose anything. In
20:36
Speaker 1: terms of writing. By the third album by staying. They
20:40
Speaker 1: really became more and more and more and more integrated
20:45
Speaker 1: as writers together as opposed to really verning league in
20:48
Speaker 1: the process. So what they lost was the fact that
20:52
Speaker 1: they lost a family member. What impact that hasn't any
20:54
Speaker 1: band psyche, But beyond that, musically they were pretty strong.
20:59
Speaker 2: They were. Yeah. Doug Wimbish, by the way, from Hartford, Connecticut,
21:02
Speaker 2: not far from where I live here. I've worked in
21:04
Speaker 2: Hartford for many years, and from what I understand, a
21:07
Speaker 2: really nice guy, just really good dude, and very musical,
21:10
Speaker 2: like you say, just all these different projects, and he
21:14
Speaker 2: he brought a very different musical personality to Stain, which
21:17
Speaker 2: came out in ninety three. Heavier, darker, more industrial sound
21:21
Speaker 2: to that album. How does the arrival change both the
21:24
Speaker 2: music and the interpersonal chemistry of the band or did it?
21:27
Speaker 2: Or was it? As you say, It's just they kind
21:29
Speaker 2: of they were just moving forward as they initially planned.
21:33
Speaker 1: Already Stain is sonically different than Vivid or Times Up Now.
21:41
Speaker 1: Is that because of the times? Is that because of
21:45
Speaker 1: the production was slightly different? I think Ron Saint Germaine
21:50
Speaker 1: co produced the album with Living Color. Other Also, Doug
21:55
Speaker 1: Wimbish is much more into electronics and effects and sequencing
22:02
Speaker 1: a sample and kicking samples. Then the muzz was so
22:08
Speaker 1: I think all that contributed to a different sound is
22:11
Speaker 1: a lot more industrial sounding to me than Stainless. And
22:15
Speaker 1: then Times Up. I think that was brought also a
22:19
Speaker 1: product of the times stuff.
22:20
Speaker 2: I wonder if that's what what I saw a living
22:23
Speaker 2: color in New Haven, Connecticut maybe twenty years ago now,
22:27
Speaker 2: But there was a lot of experimentation going on there,
22:31
Speaker 2: synthesizer and industrial sounds and jazz fusion stuff happening there.
22:37
Speaker 2: I mean it really through the crowd. Those that weren't
22:39
Speaker 2: long time fans a little bit like WHOA, what's you know?
22:42
Speaker 2: They thought it was just going to be standard song
22:44
Speaker 2: of the song, the hits and all that. But there's
22:46
Speaker 2: a lot of experimentation there. Which I loved was that I.
22:51
Speaker 1: Think it's mostly wembitsh but it's also I mean, Burnet
22:55
Speaker 1: is a gear nut, right, and I think a lot
22:58
Speaker 1: of great guitarist star he has samples as well, but
23:03
Speaker 1: most of his wimbish. Yeah, And there's also a three
23:06
Speaker 1: year gap between Staying and Times Up, and the music
23:11
Speaker 1: industry has changed too. When you have a lot more
23:15
Speaker 1: industrial sounds coming out in the mid and mid nineties.
23:21
Speaker 2: Leave it Alone, Nothingness with the big singles from that,
23:25
Speaker 2: and it arrived after grun shifted the rock world towards darker,
23:29
Speaker 2: less polished music. Why didn't Living Color benefit more commercially
23:32
Speaker 2: from a climate that seemingly should have welcomed that album.
23:35
Speaker 1: Only because of the gap. Typically a record company wants
23:40
Speaker 1: to produce produced produced album the year, album the year,
23:45
Speaker 1: and so you can't do it anymore. And they took
23:47
Speaker 1: a gap of three years, really and that had an
23:50
Speaker 1: impact also with the first album specially, it was a
23:54
Speaker 1: freshness is a newness which was gone by the time
23:57
Speaker 1: you got to the third album. I think that the
24:02
Speaker 1: first two albums are stronger than Stain, but stayin Stilla
24:06
Speaker 1: pretty strong, darn.
24:08
Speaker 2: Out it is. How much of it was this then
24:11
Speaker 2: being lumped in with the eighties bands, it's the other thing.
24:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
24:17
Speaker 2: And you get a new decade and it's like out
24:18
Speaker 2: with the old, in with the new.
24:20
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact is that Living Color is not
24:23
Speaker 1: and they're not Steely Dan. They're not a and R
24:27
Speaker 1: AAR album group. They're a hard rock group, but they
24:30
Speaker 1: are accomplished players at a time when accomplished players weren't
24:36
Speaker 1: particularly respected. So even though they are, they were extremely hard,
24:41
Speaker 1: they are still extremely hard. You may have some of
24:44
Speaker 1: that coming into play in terms of the interpretation of
24:46
Speaker 1: their music.
24:47
Speaker 2: Nothingness one of the most melodic and atmospheric songs on
24:50
Speaker 2: an otherwise abrasive record. Will Calhoun wrote it. The lyrics
24:54
Speaker 2: describe someone gradually disappearing emotionally from master of pain to
24:58
Speaker 2: master of hiding. What kind of loss or isolation was
25:01
Speaker 2: he writing about?
25:03
Speaker 1: No, I haven't talked to Will about I've never talked
25:07
Speaker 1: to Will. Actually, I haven't talked about this, and I
25:11
Speaker 1: think you hit on. I mean, is it? Is it
25:13
Speaker 1: something going on with him personally? Is an observation where
25:16
Speaker 1: we are as a society, because a lot of that
25:19
Speaker 1: is but I don't know.
25:21
Speaker 2: There's a sense of humor in there where I don't
25:24
Speaker 2: know what the instrument is like, Well, it's a little
25:26
Speaker 2: like a whistle thing, you.
25:28
Speaker 1: Know, Vernion was using he was using guitar synthesizers, role
25:33
Speaker 1: and guitar synthesizer as well, but Wimbush was doing most
25:37
Speaker 1: of the sound effects with his sampling and triggering.
25:42
Speaker 2: So yeahn't know what it is you describe Living Collen's
25:46
Speaker 2: breakup not as a collapse, but as a dispersal of energy.
25:50
Speaker 2: What did the years apart reveal about each member that
25:53
Speaker 2: may have been obscured within that band, because they all
25:55
Speaker 2: they all went on to do solo work, right.
25:59
Speaker 1: And they did, and they all went on to do
26:00
Speaker 1: solo work which was not like Living Color, I mean,
26:04
Speaker 1: I think I I included a review of Vernon's first
26:08
Speaker 1: solo album after they stepped apart, which was nineteen ninety
26:16
Speaker 1: six's Mistaken Identity, and that has of course, it has
26:20
Speaker 1: some great guitar parts in every song, but it's really
26:24
Speaker 1: a great use of samples on that song on that album.
26:27
Speaker 1: It's a great use of raps on that album, a
26:30
Speaker 1: great use of humor on that album, which some of
26:33
Speaker 1: which you didn't hear on Living Color. And then Corey
26:36
Speaker 1: too did a solo album pretty much around that same time,
26:40
Speaker 1: which I also include a review of, which is much
26:43
Speaker 1: more melodic than what he had done with Flitting Color,
26:47
Speaker 1: and quite frankly, much more soulful. So he got to
26:50
Speaker 1: use his instrument his voice a lot more so. It
26:53
Speaker 1: allowed all of them, Whimbitsh and Calhoun also to do
26:59
Speaker 1: things they would not normally do. And in color you
27:02
Speaker 1: had with Will Calhoun with the world music, the jazz
27:07
Speaker 1: that he was doing, some of the acoustic jazz, and
27:11
Speaker 1: whimbish you had again in electronics fusing that with his
27:16
Speaker 1: bass playing. So it allowed them the space to be
27:21
Speaker 1: who they are as musicians and not create the same
27:24
Speaker 1: thing over and over again.
27:26
Speaker 2: And Cory Glover had acting chops, good actor. How much
27:30
Speaker 2: did he pursue that after?
27:31
Speaker 1: What was the movie he was in?
27:33
Speaker 2: Uh in eighty nine?
27:34
Speaker 1: It was a saving private it was another war movie,
27:39
Speaker 1: Platoon pltas une Yes? Is that the one? Yeah? It
27:42
Speaker 1: was Platoony he was he was great. But I don't
27:44
Speaker 1: know what he did in terms of acting after that
27:47
Speaker 1: because he kind of jumped back into the music world
27:50
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. I don't know.
27:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, man talented guy. Will was the one who became
27:55
Speaker 2: the principal instigator of the two thousand reunion because he
27:59
Speaker 2: didn't want to grow old, wondering what if what conversations
28:04
Speaker 2: had to occur before the four members could share a
28:06
Speaker 2: stage again. I mean, we're old grievances discussed directly. Did
28:10
Speaker 2: they initially let the music do the talking?
28:13
Speaker 1: I don't know if old grievances were fully addressed directly.
28:17
Speaker 1: I think they're probably still addressing some of those concerns
28:20
Speaker 1: because a lot of the concerns were about what directions
28:25
Speaker 1: should we go with songs, should we include, when should
28:28
Speaker 1: we do albums well. I talked to Vernon no I
28:33
Speaker 1: talked to Corey a few years ago about Stain. He
28:38
Speaker 1: talked about a number of songs that he and Vernon
28:42
Speaker 1: will and that had worked together on that we're not
28:49
Speaker 1: going to be included because he didn't like the direction
28:52
Speaker 1: of the sound or he didn't like the lyrics that
28:54
Speaker 1: came up with, and there was a lot of discussions
28:57
Speaker 1: about what to throw out, what to keep in. I
29:00
Speaker 1: think most bands have that thing said. They were also,
29:04
Speaker 1: I mean, they're very diplomatic, very there's very much a
29:08
Speaker 1: democracy in the band. So some of those arguments go
29:12
Speaker 1: on and on and on. Now I think the band
29:15
Speaker 1: has learned to have the arguments without pulling apart as
29:21
Speaker 1: a band, But those arguments are still there in terms
29:24
Speaker 1: of the direction with songs, how the song should sound.
29:28
Speaker 1: And I think also that when the members were doing
29:32
Speaker 1: their solo work, they became more aware of what they
29:35
Speaker 1: wanted to accomplish within living color when they get back together.
29:39
Speaker 1: So there's still very much strong, forceful individuals who have
29:48
Speaker 1: to get together and come up with a major theme
29:51
Speaker 1: for an album and then with songs have to include.
29:55
Speaker 2: The reunion produced three very different albums, Kaleidoscope two thousand
29:59
Speaker 2: and three, The Chair in the Doorway two thousand and nine,
30:02
Speaker 2: and Shade in twenty seventeen. Kaleidoscope was very much influenced
30:07
Speaker 2: by nine to eleven, right, yes, very much so. Yeah,
30:11
Speaker 2: the song Flying that gets me.
30:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're Nightmare City, I mean that's that's rough. And
30:20
Speaker 1: then I mean the Beatles cover Tomorrow Never Knows There,
30:26
Speaker 1: it's very ominous. The whole album is very ominous. It's
30:31
Speaker 1: very dark, and it's really i mean two dark maybe
30:36
Speaker 1: three dark album albums in a row, staying Kaleidoscope, the
30:39
Speaker 1: Chair in the Doorway.
30:40
Speaker 2: Kaleidoscope also has Back and Black on there, right, Yes.
30:44
Speaker 1: Yes, it does. Wonderful cover of Black and Back and Black.
30:48
Speaker 2: Uh Ry cover some standout tracks from The Chair in
30:52
Speaker 2: the Doorway for you what stands out from that?
30:56
Speaker 1: My favorite one is Sacred Ground. I love thee for
31:00
Speaker 1: that feel of that. I think that also touches on
31:06
Speaker 1: the new York Piece as well than behind the song
31:12
Speaker 1: behind the Sun, that's just fantastic. Yeah, behind the Sun
31:18
Speaker 1: and I think I say bless those Little Annie's Prayer,
31:24
Speaker 1: which is mostly Doug Wembish composition, are probably my my favorites.
31:31
Speaker 1: You do have another cover there, you have Asshole as
31:34
Speaker 1: a hidden track. Yeah, interesting ending to the album. But yeah,
31:41
Speaker 1: I love this a good album, Shade.
31:45
Speaker 2: What are your favorites on there? They do a great
31:47
Speaker 2: cover of Robert Johnson's Preaching Blues, Who Shot You? The
31:50
Speaker 2: notorious b I G cover School.
31:53
Speaker 1: Shade may be my favorite Living Color album, Actually, I
31:56
Speaker 1: think more. I think I like it more than the Vivid,
32:00
Speaker 1: you know if I like it more than Times Up,
32:02
Speaker 1: Times Up and in Shade because Preaching Blues, which I
32:08
Speaker 1: think the last time I saw in the concert, Vernon
32:10
Speaker 1: started started the concert with that. That's wonderful Robert Johnson
32:17
Speaker 1: kind of slide guitar party, Vernon ad and the electric
32:21
Speaker 1: slide guitar Beautiful Blackout was another wonderful song that I like,
32:28
Speaker 1: the cover of Inner City Blues, the Marvin Gay song
32:31
Speaker 1: stand out track another cover. Because you mentioned who Shatcha,
32:35
Speaker 1: which was one of the first singles from the album
32:37
Speaker 1: in Notario's Big cover and then the last song two sides, great,
32:43
Speaker 1: ending up a great record, great record.
32:46
Speaker 2: What influencers do you hear in Vernon Reed? I hear Clapton.
32:50
Speaker 2: I think Clapton he was a big fan of There's
32:51
Speaker 2: a great touch to his playing.
32:54
Speaker 1: Very much clapped in terms of the Cream era, right,
32:58
Speaker 1: And of course Vernon did play with Jack Bruce later
33:03
Speaker 1: in Jack's Life and a band what was that called
33:06
Speaker 1: Spectrum Road with Cindy black.
33:09
Speaker 2: Men's Santana and John Meds.
33:15
Speaker 1: Fantastic album. And then of course Vernon, I would say
33:22
Speaker 1: a little Robert Fripp there as well as maybe as
33:24
Speaker 1: some influence when he's playing Yeah.
33:27
Speaker 2: You're right, yeah, but on the song like on the
33:30
Speaker 2: song I mentioned the one with Nick on their Broken Hearts,
33:33
Speaker 2: that guitar swell.
33:35
Speaker 1: And the volt yeah, oh man, yeah, and oh just
33:43
Speaker 1: in terms of Vernon's effects, I mean, he that's probably
33:46
Speaker 1: one of the least films songs that has one of
33:48
Speaker 1: the least amount of effects. But that's that beautiful volume
33:52
Speaker 1: pedal swells that he does. It's a fantastic yeah, absolutely.
33:56
Speaker 2: So what do you believe is Living Color's greatest contribution
33:59
Speaker 2: to rock music? And what do your readers will understand
34:02
Speaker 2: about them after they finish this book.
34:04
Speaker 1: I think the greatest contribution that Living Color has is
34:08
Speaker 1: just bringing rock back to its roots in terms of
34:12
Speaker 1: some of the blue stuff that you don't often hear
34:15
Speaker 1: a pop radio. Yet it's making it modern in terms
34:19
Speaker 1: of giving you that harder, hard rock edge. It's also
34:24
Speaker 1: allowing especially blacks African Americans who don't listen to rock normally,
34:29
Speaker 1: to hear a band which is influenced by their elders
34:34
Speaker 1: also has an influence on contemporary music. I think that's
34:39
Speaker 1: key to Living Color's mission. And you have these social
34:44
Speaker 1: commentary aspects of their lyrics. I mean, every album has
34:47
Speaker 1: songs which are about us as people, about where we're
34:50
Speaker 1: going as a country, where we're going as individuals, and
34:54
Speaker 1: the great thing what Living Color is. I mean, I
34:57
Speaker 1: didn't hear the lyrics at first. I didn't. I heard
35:00
Speaker 1: the riffs. I heard the riffs. I heard that ballet
35:03
Speaker 1: bass and the drums, and then, like you mentioned, Eric,
35:05
Speaker 1: you listen to the songs, you hear these lyrics and said,
35:07
Speaker 1: wait a minute, there's something deep here. It really is.
35:10
Speaker 1: So I love that. I think other people will love
35:12
Speaker 1: that too, and.
35:13
Speaker 2: What can we expect next from the band? Can we
35:16
Speaker 2: get another album? Are they working at? According to Wikipedia,
35:20
Speaker 2: they're working on new material for the follow up The Shade.
35:23
Speaker 1: Vernon posts on his social media about two years ago
35:28
Speaker 1: they were working on something that was two years ago,
35:31
Speaker 1: and then he came out with his solo album, which
35:35
Speaker 1: I was not expecting. So I don't I know they're
35:39
Speaker 1: working on stuff. I don't know when the next Living
35:44
Speaker 1: Color albums coming out? Who do Telemetry? Because Vernon's solo
35:48
Speaker 1: album came out last year? Who Did Telemetry took him
35:53
Speaker 1: about a half a year to finish. And I know
35:57
Speaker 1: he'd been working with Corey, especially Cory, but also with
36:02
Speaker 1: Will and Doug on songs for a new Living Color album.
36:05
Speaker 1: So he keeps saying any day. I don't know, but
36:09
Speaker 1: I think there will be more new material from Living Color.
36:14
Speaker 1: I mean they are touring. It was supposed to tour
36:18
Speaker 1: of Extreme, I believe this summer, and then that was
36:20
Speaker 1: canceled because Extreme backed out for whatever reason. And then
36:25
Speaker 1: Vernon and Corey have been doing some acoustic shows in
36:27
Speaker 1: New York. While Will is on tour. He's on tour
36:31
Speaker 1: with a jazz artist who's drummer at the second number,
36:36
Speaker 1: who it was and Doug's always busy, so we'll see
36:39
Speaker 1: our new Living Color music.
36:40
Speaker 2: I'm confident that they had Extreme and Living Color together.
36:43
Speaker 1: That would have been so cool. I would have been
36:46
Speaker 1: in on that one.
36:47
Speaker 2: Well, the book is out now, Shade a Living Color.
36:49
Speaker 2: It's out through Amazon. You'll also find Preston's other books.
36:53
Speaker 2: They're on Amazon, on Toto and Yes, and people can
36:57
Speaker 2: find you online Wear Oppression and also plug the podcast too.
37:01
Speaker 1: Sure, I'm at Slang of Ages s l A n
37:05
Speaker 1: G F A g ees dot com. Slang of Ages.
37:09
Speaker 1: It's not a def Leppard reference reference.
37:13
Speaker 2: I asked you before. I think I had asked you that.
37:16
Speaker 2: I think I know. I think I asked you a
37:18
Speaker 2: few years back to and you said it's a Steely
37:20
Speaker 2: Dan reference. But I'm thinking, yes, def Leppard has an
37:23
Speaker 2: album called Slang Rock of Ages, and maybe I.
37:28
Speaker 1: Wish I'd thought of that. So you find me at
37:30
Speaker 1: Slang of Ages dot com. I'm also on all social
37:34
Speaker 1: media's under Slang of Ages podcasts. My podcast is about
37:38
Speaker 1: my favorite albums. I've been doing this ten seasons of
37:42
Speaker 1: that and enjoying every bit of it.
37:45
Speaker 2: Eric Oh it's good man, thanks so much. Another great
37:47
Speaker 2: job on this book, and can you tease any other
37:52
Speaker 2: possible book projects in Okay?
37:55
Speaker 1: So, I've been doing an outline and thinking about my
37:59
Speaker 1: next book. It will come out next year, I hope.
38:02
Speaker 1: And I finally want to tackle Steely Dan. So now
38:08
Speaker 1: I can talk about the slang of ages and what
38:11
Speaker 1: it really means with Steely Dan. I think it will
38:13
Speaker 1: be my next book sometime in two thousand and twenty seven.
38:17
Speaker 2: Get that, wait all right? Twenty twenty seven, pressing Fraser.
38:19
Speaker 2: Thanks so much Man, good to see you.
38:21
Speaker 1: Thank you, Eric, You take care. That's it. It's in
38:32
Speaker 1: the books.