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Joanna Vargas on the Science and Art of Great Skin · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Skin Anarchy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I am so, so honored to be hosting our guest today.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: She is truly a trailblazer, an icon in the skin health space, and I have been following her for such a long time.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Huge fan of her products.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, please welcome Joanna Vargas.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome Joanna.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Such an honor.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you so much.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: You are so sweet.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be here.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to host you.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, really, you know, it's been on my bucket list to have you on the show.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a full circle moment for me.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to get started, like kind of walking down memory lane and talking about your career because it's been so phenomenal so far and you've worked on the best of the best, you know, and you've seen skin in a way that I think very rarely people experience in this industry.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so what got you into, you know, just beauty and skincare and skin health and becoming an esthetician?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I always say that it was a winding road.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that I wanted to um move to New York and be a fashion photographer.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned very quickly that I wasn't very well suited for that type of, you know, um freelance type work.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was really shy.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually went to aesthetic school thinking like maybe I'll be a makeup artist or something that has to do with fashion, but like on a tangent.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I got into beauty school, I absolutely fell in love with giving facials and really like being one-on-one with a client and helping them solve their issues, what what the puzzle of their skin was.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I really felt um many times that women wanted to learn more about their skin or what they should be doing, but they really had nowhere to go to.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I felt like I could be the big sister in that situation and really help guide people.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I gave myself a year to try it out once I graduated from school and uh I never looked back.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: That was almost 30 years ago.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's that's really you know fascinating.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like when you're meant to do something, it just like it falls in place and you keep going.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what were there moments in your career in the early aspects where you're like, I don't know, you know, I don't know if I'm doing this, you know, if I should do this with long run, or did you always know that you wanted to pursue this?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think there's always like people always have doubts.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: You always have sort of like an inner discourse with yourself about decisions you're making.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And especially as a younger person, I was quite um insecure and a little bit like, you know, what should I?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: It all felt very serious, all the decisions I was making.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I didn't want to make any mistakes.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I felt um in some uh in some ways, like I was meant to do this because my grandmother um was very beauty focused and she would always buy me like bubble baths and you know powders and creams and things for my birthday.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like looking back at my life, this career made sense.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was just kind of trying to find like what about the industry really spoke to me.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that took some time, and I really took my time figuring that out.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I worked at an organic day spa for a while, I worked for a derm.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I, you know, just tried out different like kinds of points of view before I really found what spoke to me the most.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's interesting um your journey, like when I was reading a bit more, you know, it's it's like you've you were so successful in bridging that like world of like, you know, kind of like the natural-based um remedies for skin health as well as the clinical-based.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I would love to get your, you know, take on this in terms of what actually worked for the skin.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, especially when you were first starting out, what were some things that you you noticed were really moving the needle for a lot of people when it came to their skin health?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it was an interesting time.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: I became an aesthetician in um the late 90s, and um I think what was interesting is that most places just offered one type of facial.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of like some version of a cleansing facial with different products and then like a glycolic peel.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And people were trying to be more thoughtful about formulas, even in that era.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, you know, is this product organic or what does it do for the skin?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, what is this chemical ingredient?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: What does this mean?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So people were really starting to kind of dig in there.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, what was really obvious in a sort of a painful way was that, you know, not everything works for everyone.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's not one service that works across skin types, across skin tones.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: And really, I started to lean into technologies because that is something that speaks to skin across skin types.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, whether you have oily skin, acneic skin, super dry skin, for example, LED um is something that can help you and can help increase the health and wellness of your skin and what you're seeing when you look in the mirror.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it was really kind of realizing that, like, you know, we needed a bit more science in the conversation, and that just wasn't happening in those moments.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um as far as I know, I'm the first esthetician in Manhattan to have LED.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there was a derm that had it, uh, Pat Wexler.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what really I was like, wow, I had a client that was going to her and I was kind of blown away at how much her skin improved.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what made me like, okay, let's read some scientific papers and get into this, you know?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's I mean, that's really the interesting part is that I feel like um, you know, when I was noticing like skincare for the first time, there was this huge division between like, you know, natural organic skincare and then like the super heavy clinical focused skincare.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I always used to like kind of turn to aestheticians myself, you know, try to figure out what really does work, you know, in terms of what is the science and and where does it really play in?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I, you know, when I look at this world, it becomes very confusing because there's so many products now, right, that are working at like philosoph both philosophies.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I'm sure in your career you you watched this evolve, you know, this whole like industry evolve.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: So what what were some of the the first, I guess, like big things that you were like, okay, this is huge, you know.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know you just mentioned LED, but like what were some of the big treatments that you were like, this is going to really change the game for aesthetics?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I felt, you know, uh at the beginning of my career, uh Microcurrent, for example, has been around forever since the 50s.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: It changed so much by the time that I started my own spa in 2006.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I tried one device that I was like, oh, this is a game changer because microcurrent in the early years when I was first starting out, it it was kind of stung, it would make the skin very red.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, why would anybody want to do this?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly, you know how technology kind of evolves.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Suddenly, I was I was trying out this uh machine that I wanted to possibly buy for my space, and um, it was painless.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: It gave you an instant result.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: You could actually feel like one side of the face was lifted and the other side wasn't, like when they did one side.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there was something so rewarding about giving somebody that boost of confidence right in that moment.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, that's gonna be a game changer.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that I can tell clients about that whether you're 25 or 85, you're gonna see a difference with this.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it was at a time when everybody was very concerned with going non-invasive and really looking for things that weren't filler and Botox because that was sort of exploding in that time.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I've like microcurrent, I feel like it's still like super in the scene, you know, they keep trying to come out with new versions.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think you know, that's what's cool about tech is that it does evolve.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: The, you know, in my career, it's evolved so much.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just, I think sometimes people might have a funny viewpoint about technology, like, oh, I tried that, it doesn't work.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, it evolves over time and gets better over time.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, okay, what machine have you used?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is something that was just created last year, and this is gonna be like the most cutting edge, you know what I mean?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was sort of, you know, alongside of all of that was sort of this conversation about product and active ingredients.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Cause like I said at the beginning, when I first started my career, it was like glycolic was the acid ingredient, uh, or the active ingredient rather.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, then we were kind of bringing in um some plant-based ingredients, um, you know, stem cells, epidermal growth factor, all of those kinds of things were really interesting.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I can remember there was one product line that claimed that there were oxygen bubbles inside the product.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say the name, but um, and like that didn't make sense to me.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how could there be, how could you know, I know that it's the skin needs oxygen, but how could you claim that?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyways, so that actually inspired me to create my very first product, which is the my green juice for the skin product, my daily serum.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because what gives oxygen to the skin?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Greens that you could put into a product and give an oxygenating effect in that rosy glow, and that would make sense to me.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just sort of like applying what I knew scientifically with what I thought was possible to put in a jar and call it a something, you know?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, um, it I feel like we're still in that era of like buzzy ingredients or like buzzy, like, you know, um, and and that actually is one of my biggest questions for you is like, I know, I mean, you've seen, I mean, you've seen so many clients, you've worked with skin, you know, in such a like, you know, close way that when you were developing your line, what were some things that you noticed that were maybe recurring in all of your clients that you're like, I gotta figure this out and I gotta bring this to my skincare line, you know, as a um, I I think it's such an interesting question because I used to, I I actually still have the question when you when you become a client of my salon, you answer like, you know, what is your goal for your skin?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um I thought that my clients were focused on anti-aging.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I know it's like you're not supposed to say that anymore, but in 2006 to 2010, everybody was saying it.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that that's what everyone would write down.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: But uh the first hundred people that I ever gave facials to at my spa, you know what they wrote?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: They wanted clean, clear, glowing skin.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Word for word, every single person wrote that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like no matter their age, whether they were uh a first-time mom, uh, a mom of a 30-year-old daughter, any age, they all wrote that.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I couldn't believe it because it really um it made me think about like what's marketed to women in terms of like, you know, your skin is dirty, your skin is dull, you're you know, like all of these kinds of things, like what we're fed in the media, and then like what could I do for them that would really make them feel like oh, it's it's better without making somebody feel bad, like you know, um women already kind of feel self-critical.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can I be an aesthetician that doesn't add to that conversation that you're having with yourself in the mirror?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it led me, for example, to, and and everybody thinks they have sensitive skin.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's the other thing.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it led me to create, I have an exfoliating mask, which was my second product that I ever made.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a combination of um green papaya extract, lactic acid, cogic acid, and it also has pumice, so you can scrub it on very gently or leave it on as a mask.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it gave people the feeling of that like cleanliness that they wanted out of their pores, but also like a brightening, like that glow, you know.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's sometimes it's sort of like breaking a concept down like what would make someone feel glowy, a great exfoliator, you know.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and that's how I decided to create my product was just listening to my clients and listening to like what their feedback was about other other products that they were using at home and trying to be thoughtful about how I could give them what they wanted.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that makes it makes sense, and you know, it's interesting you say that because exfoliation has gotten kind of like this bad reputation over the last couple of years, and I I don't know why, because my skin I it looks the best when I properly exfoliate, you know.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, and and your keyword that you just used is proper.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like now there's like different ways of doing that, and your skin and my skin are different, and what what your skin's needs uh might be different from mine, but like you still have to do it.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: You still have to like, you know, especially if you live in a a city with pollution, like you know, just the grime of the day, or like, you know, if your skin's on the oilier side, then you have to kind of, you know, control what's building up inside the pores and so on.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: But even if your skin, you know, I'm I'm 56, my skin is, you know, mature.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, I have to um also exfoliate um in order to feel like my products are penetrating well into the skin.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And some people, I think what's interesting about back then was that we didn't have the amount of information we have now available to the public.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was like fashion magazines, and that's kind of it, right?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's like you could just, you know, chat GPT, a whole skincare routine and not even talk to anybody human.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: So isn't that crazy?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just find that to be wild.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and honestly, like, what is your take on on this?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like there's been this divide um between like dermatologist-focused advice and aesthetician-focused advice.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I've always seen it as like there's these are two disciplines that marry, you know, and they have to come together.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd love for you to speak on this if you could, like in terms of like where your like, especially when you were first starting off, like where you found your self-fitting in this equation of giving people what they needed, but then obviously understanding like their dermatologist is telling them one thing, you know, but then you're working with their skin probably much more than the derma is.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So totally.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, I've always had obviously tons of respect and deference to whatever a derm tells one of my clients, but at the same time, you know, um the beauty industry is an industry.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and um, I have had clients come to me crying because some uh doctor gave them a list of what's wrong with their face.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I've had clients come to me and say that, you know, they went in for a mold check and it was suggested that they do a bunch of filler to make them look better, quote unquote better.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think um I think that there is a place for both of us on a panel of your trusted uh advisors.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I do believe in skin cancer checks.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that everybody should have a derm that they trust, but it's also like you have to be mindful of the fact that not maybe not everybody has your best interest all the time if they're making you feel bad.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's not a well-executed appointment, or maybe that person's not for you, and kind of like balancing all of that.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Really, what I have done my whole mission with my whole career is to make people understand that everybody could have beautiful skin.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just a matter of finding what's the correct balance for you, the correct home routine.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and part of that is is understanding that you know something about your skin too, and that it's not about going into these appointments like letting someone order you around.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's your appointment, it's supposed to be for you.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So um I there are many derms in this city that I I highly respect who highly respect me and the way that I work, and we work very well together to make people happy.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there have been like the cautionary tales of like people that have had some really unfortunate experiences that made them feel worse, not better.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that is something that I think, you know, as a service provider, I always hold at the top of my mind is that I'm here to make you feel good.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here to make you feel special and heard.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I want you to feel beautiful when you leave my presence.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I want you to be educated and know what what steps you need to take in order to feel that way every day, you know, no matter if I'm with you or not, you know.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's my that's my role.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for a derm, they are doctors and they're supposed to give medical advice, but medical advice doesn't uh to me is not whether or not someone does filler.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's like an opinion, you know.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a bit just giving people the idea that they're allowed to be like, you know, I that's not right for me.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I'm gonna do that, you know?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's actually such an excellent point that you brought up because I've I've been in that position where I went to a provider and exactly what you described, you know, it was recommended to me to get filler.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, absolutely not.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need it, you know.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like you get that pushback, and then the science comes in of like, well, this will help you with the volume.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, but why what about all the other options?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's so many other things that don't get discussed in those kind of consultations, you know, and and that's where I and that's originally actually why I asked you that question, because I feel like in the world of like aesthetics and what aestheticians do, like it's just a more personalized approach.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's been my experience, you know, as a consumer, is like I feel like I can have a conversation that I couldn't really have with somebody who's so focused on allopathic medicine, where it's drugs and it's, you know what I mean, injectables, and that's all they've learned.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't know how to counsel on other stuff, you know, that kind of thing.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: So and I think there's a lack, you know, sometimes there's just a lack of um how should I put it?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: A lack of grace in those conversations at times.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, who who asked you whether I needed filler or not?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, or uh I, you know, and and what that does to somebody who's already feeling vulnerable, like I'm very acutely aware that most people share very deeply intimate insecurities with me.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if if you're telling me, you know, I've I've always felt very insecure about blah, and then I'm like, well, I mean, you need filler.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: I had one client who told me a medical professional uh told her, like, well, you're gonna need at least five vials of filler just to start.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know, like that's just the beginning, and just said it in that type of style where it's kind of like you you're made to feel like you're a lost cause, but also like you know what I mean?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's not so cool, but I think um there are plenty of people who don't do that, and I think, you know, um being a professional in every sense of the word is so important.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, obviously I'm an aesthetician, so I have deep respect for aestheticians and the way that we approach things, even when we have different philosophies.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think that um, you know, I have so many friends uh in this world, in you know, different cities, um, you know, in Europe, all over.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we all tend to approach from like the care of the client first, and what does that person, you know, want from us, and how are we gonna approach that for you?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's important.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that definitely, I I definitely resonate with that.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, it one of the biggest questions I I have, and I and I always wonder this, you know, if you're an esthetician and you're working on skin every day, how do you approach all of these novel ingredients that are coming out?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because I feel like every day there's some new bioactive, some new protein, something that's popping up.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, how do you sift through all of that?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you're vetting products or you're when you're vetting ingredients for your own love.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: What is your process for sifting through the science?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, I obviously like to stay in knowledgeable about everything that's coming out.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I ask a lot of questions of people that I trust.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then knowledge comes to me in different ways.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I, for example, there was there's a line called plated.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Have you have you heard of that?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: The exosome.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I, you know, I didn't know what to make of it.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, obviously, there's a lot of opinion.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was talking um to a doctor about um, my daughter is a dancer and she was having a knee problem.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I was talking to a stem cell doctor about stem cell therapy and blah, blah.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, you know, I hear you're in skin care.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever heard of this line called plated?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: That that stuff is the real deal.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: So here was a a doctor, a sports medicine doctor, who was telling me that he was familiar with the doctors who created plated, who, if you don't know, is a line um by by doctors from the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um I was so I was like, I can't believe you know about that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, I happen to read all the research, and you know, it was just so interesting.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, sometimes knowledge comes that way, sort of I happen into it, but I do like to read a lot of um studies, you know, medical journal type studies, so that I can see what the actual data is like firsthand for myself, because you know, a lot of it gets interpreted by whomever is has read it and then writes an opinion about it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to read that opinion sometimes.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I do it that way.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, sometimes a client will come in and I'll be like, wait a minute, your skin is looking like so amazing.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: What did you change?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then they'll say, Oh, I started using blah.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so that'll make me want to dive in.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I'm also very lucky.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I do get a lot of brands send me things, so I get to try a lot of things firsthand.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's nothing that replaces being able to try something on myself, and if I like it on myself, then I'll involve.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: I have, you know, um, at this point, uh, let's see, I have uh 27 aestheticians that work under me.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: So they try a lot of things and we talk about it.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it just depends on on what the line is and what I'm gonna use it for.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we also have a few nurses here.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: They try things or or let me in on stuff.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's pretty cool.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty fun.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of like the what I guess people would imagine my career is.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just sit around playing with products all day.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty cool.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, honestly though, but you know, the reason I ask is because your line, when I look at, you know, the actual skincare line, you have so many tried and true ingredients and your products are really, really heavy hitting.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I for anyone listening in the audience, like I mean, every single product I've tried in your collection has been very, very efficacious for my skin.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I remember the first product was your vitamin C cleanser.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't think a cleanser could not make that big of a difference.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: I like so happy.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so good.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And like to this day, it's one of my favorite cleansers because it does what it's supposed to do.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, and and that's why I am just so like in awe of what you've created because it's like you've used the best ingredients, but you're not chasing these, like, you know, like brand new, like, okay, the new biotech.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's cool.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: But you're it's like it's one thing to understand it, but it's another thing to like wait for that efficacy for all those results to come out before we, as you know, like developers or formulators, like get behind it.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I wanted to ask you about that.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, also keep in mind in 30 years, you know how many times niacinamide has been popular?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's gone in and out like a couple of times.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, same with every other ingredient you can think of vitamin C, um, you know, epidermal growth factor, a stem cell, you know, I've seen it, you know.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think when also what people have to realize is like, you know, there these these blogs and places where we go for data, they need to just push out content.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, you just start, if you have to write six articles a day, you know, it's different from back in the day, like, you know, writing an article about um, I remember um the first time I ever got mentioned in Vogue, I thought I was gonna pass out.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: They were doing, they were doing an article about um rose water in skincare.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I got one line and I was like, oh my God, I can't believe this is happening to me.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, like it was like, you know, I got interviewed and they fact-checked and, you know, all the things.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like that anymore.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, there is this boom of information, but like, you know, I don't think we need to like dive right in.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel that way about technologies and ingredient.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, there is something to be said about like just um steady eddy with your products, like things that work, like what makes sense to you as a consumer.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like my vitamin C face wash, it it's gently exfoliating, it's got salicylic acid, it's got some brightening ingredients.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted you to feel brighter when you used it because I, you know, the this is sort of a uh a funny thing.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of clients didn't wash their face, they thought it was a useless step.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, um, how did I how was I gonna get you to wash your face every day?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna make it feel like it was worth it.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I I created that.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you did.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a phenomenal product.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's timeless.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I absolutely love it.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's interesting what you said because you know, when I look at like, I mean, you are so incredibly successful um in your work, and it's obviously well deserved.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I see a lot of people have entered the industry now, you know, in the last I think decade, I've seen a lot of people wanting to go to, you know, and learn and become ethicians.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: But many times I notice people are chasing like the celebrity clients or like and I would love for you to speak on that because it's like I it's I mean, I feel like, and I'm not an expert at all, I'm not in the field, but it's great to have celebrity clients, but then the tried and true clients, the people that build your business up, you know, like I feel like we kind of skip over.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: So just some advice maybe you could give to anybody aestheticians.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say, first of all, like from my own um uh career, I really focused on regular clients.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: I really I my dream as an aesthetician was to have a book full of clients that loved my work, that really listened to what I said and really felt good about themselves.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you're coming into the industry with like another goal, I mean, that's a choice you can make, but that's not really.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you have to have that as like the first and primary goal.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, me and uh working with actors, it was um not an intentional, like you couldn't get into that business with you couldn't just be like, I want to do a celebrity.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can just hit people up on Instagram or whatever, but like it wasn't like that back then.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: I actually, my first celebrity um was introduced to me by one of my regular clients who had a fancy yoga instructor who she purchased a gift certificate for her birthday.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: That fancy yoga instructor had an actress client who she purchased a gift card for.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like my intention of having a book full of regulars that loved me and loved my work.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: That meant that those people were introducing me to their best friends, their sisters, their moms.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually how I got into it.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't because I was like, I want to be a celebrity aesthetician.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't, the category honestly didn't even exist.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I see it, I see it as something that people want.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I I understand it, but um like you have to be there, has to be, you have to come from an authentic place.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you're not gonna get the that type of success or what you're looking for if you're not authentically trying to just do your best work, you know.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I feel like that's sort of like left out of the whole sort of equation about people wanting this client and that client.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um I feel like it's a sort of almost a um it's a a disservice to the industry that I came up in that that's like the focus or the draw or what people care about the most.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Even today, like I I have a lot of actors that come here, but you know, you don't see much of it.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't live my life on socials in that way because it's it's a part of my life's work, it's not really like um I'm not trying to be a celebrity, I'm just trying to do my best work, if that makes sense.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think I and I think that's what probably resonates the most is like you know, and it it matters because we notice as consumers, like as a client, like if I was looking for an aesthetician, I would want to see like who have you really worked with?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: What have you learned?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like that's what I I always wonder when I'm looking in the space.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I the newer, the newer people in the space, I feel like, yeah, you're chasing celebrity, you're chasing the social media hype.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, where does that science fit in then?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you're chasing that.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, exactly.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, have you are you studying anything?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Are you trying to improve anything?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are you focused on the client at all or is it all about you?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of times I just feel like, you know, I wouldn't want to have uh an experience like that, like, you know, um, where it's focused on like the picture and not the actual work.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's you know, that's the the modern era, I guess.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that um part of what I do is really make people feel good about themselves.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, that's why people come again and again and again.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really how I grew my business from one teeny tiny treatment room to three locations, you know.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's something that I think like what is sustainable about the career you're trying to create.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you're chasing like some sort of celebrity of for yourself, then how is that even sustainable?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you see that a lot with like products that go viral for like a minute, and then like I feel like 20 minutes later that product line is going under, or like you know what I mean?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's no community under that.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I you know, I I have definitely taken time to build the the actual community that I'm servicing.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, and I know what you mean about the brands because it's like it's this new hyped up like we put the cart before the horse and we have all this marketing around it, and it's like, yeah, a year later, you know, maybe six months later, it's gone.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very true.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen it over and over again.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've been around for 20, this is my 20th year in business.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, you don't see that very much.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's so interesting, and it's a little bit sad because there are these brands that I thought were really incredible that they just, you know, they couldn't make it, you know, past year four or year five or whatever.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now I want to ask because just for the average consumer, for somebody who maybe doesn't know a lot about skin health and like where to start, what do you always kind of turn to as like the baseline starting places that everybody can kind of benefit from um when it comes to your skin?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think like it's more like um I would say that I get I try to get people A to wash their face every day.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: I get people to um use if if they'll only do like let's say two or three products like tops in their routine, a great cleanser, a serum, and a moisturizer.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I won't even like hate on you if you want to use the same products night and day.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like if if we could just get you to do that as the baseline.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Serum is like the treatment step.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like what your acute condition you're trying to handle, whether it's like, you know, my skin is very dehydrated or my skin is sensitized or it's dull.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, like a serum that addresses like that acute concern that you're having, and then a moisturizer on top to kind of like make sure that your skin is protected, um, that it's hydrated enough and that kind of thing.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then we build on that.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I try to get people to exfoliate at least once a week.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, whether it be like, let's do like a you know, bath time every Sunday where you do an exfoliator and then a sheet mask over.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like those kinds of things are more like like let's get into the ritual of taking care of yourself more, you know.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for me, vitamin C face wash is like a universal face wash that I created for everybody because it's lightly exfoliating, it has anti-inflammatory type properties, and it just makes the skin feel really, really good.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do love a kind of like a hyaluronic acid type serum.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: So either my daily serum, which is a green juice for the skin, um, for people who want like, you know, glow, but they need nutrition in their skin, like maybe somebody who breaks out more.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have for like let's say the 30 plus set of people, the Eden serum, which is my stem cell serum, which I love.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a nice step into thinking about skin longevity and you know, kind of like banking collagen for yourself by like putting on the right things on your skin.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the Eden series, Eden serum, Eden moisturizer, and Eden sheet mask are the number one favorites of all my aceticians that work for me.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we end a lot of facials with that.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I do like a really good um antioxidant as well.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: I like to stack uh serums on the skin.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: So usually either my rescue serum, which is pure vitamin C and squalene, um, which helps protect your skin against sun damage and pollution, um, or my rejuvenating serum if you need more soothing in your face and something juicier.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So those are like kind of like the basics for me.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think that you need to, I don't think that at this point in skincare we need to constantly be reinventing the wheel.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, a lot of things have been done already.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of things have been um have been created and been around for a very long time, including like thing, you know, I've I've had a mandelic acid mask for 15 years, but mandelic acid's having like a moment.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, niacinamide had its moment in the sun some like a couple of years ago.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, argon oil was a big thing along, you know, a while.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of those are beautiful ingredients that have been in skincare for like, you know, a thousand years.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just sort of like finding like what your skin wants to wants to eat every day to make you look like you know, the most beautiful version of you.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what my job is to figure that out for you.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love that so much.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I I really love that you have focused on the tried and trues because honestly, like you're right.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I feel like the acids, for example, like we never hear about them.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if when we do, it's like way too much, you know.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like people are overdoing it with the glycolic, they're overdoing it with like the the peel pads and stuff.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, if we just come back to the basics, you know, like let's focus on the basics.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, somebody sent me some peel pads.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: It had um had like seven different acids in there.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what are you trying to do?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like I didn't, I you know, some of I'm allergic to glycolics, I couldn't use them anyways.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like, what are you trying to do?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just you know, somebody who doesn't know anything about ingredients or never touched any or worked with it or worked with the skin, and you're just like, yeah, let's throw some of that in there.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it, you know, obviously to a consumer, it's like, wow, it's got all this good stuff in it, but like, does that really work?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a time in like the you know, 2010s where people would like try to invent one serum that had like 20 different active ingredients in it, and you know, everybody was breaking out from it.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, I think I learned more about formulations by just like giving facials to people who were trying to like, you know, like, you know, cure cancer with one serum or you know, really like solve the the the problems of the universe with like one product.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't work like that.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Skin, skin doesn't work like that, you know.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad you said that because I've been always like weary of those one and done serums.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I cannot believe that this will work on everything I needed to work on.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like yeah, and and like you just, you know, when you touch so many things after a while, you're like, oh, I know what this is, or this isn't gonna work, and here's why.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, even funny things like um when I was making my product line, so many clients had said to me um that they liked using this or that serum from other brands, but that their husbands couldn't stand the smell or their partner couldn't stand the smell of it when they came to bed.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: So part of me formulating the way I did was like, okay, what's gonna make someone feel gorgeous wearing it and smell gorgeous coming to bed with their partner and being like, oh, that's that's you know the smell of my love, you know?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's and no, that's a big part of it though.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know exactly what you mean.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's those um, I don't know if you the the condition media products are like like the ones that smell like that.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh my god, it smells like a petri dish.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm putting a petri dish on it.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I was gifted some products recently, and I was like, wow, I don't even want to put this on my leg.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, and a lot of them are like crazy expensive, they're like$400,$500.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like to smell like a petri dish.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's also like, you know, gosh, I I remember I was doing an event at Bloomingdale's.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: This was like years ago when I used to do like, you know, on the sales floor, I would set up and be like, Would you like to have a mini facial with me?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I was parked across from another, like a a legacy brand, uh, department store brand.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um my husband, while I was doing the event, he was bored.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: So he started talking to the salesperson across the way.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: So at the needless to say, at the end of my workday, my husband had like a whole shopping bag full of products that he got sold from this brand.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, we gotta try this.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: These ingredients sound amazing.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it just didn't do anything.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, just because something sounds like it's something doesn't mean that it, you know, it's actually gonna do anything for you.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just sort of like that's why it's good.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's good to have like a skincare professional that can be like, you know what, this is what you have to do.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need that, just need a little of this, you know.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, it makes sense.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I completely agree with you.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, just as my closing questions, I'd love to get some words of wisdom from you for any of the women out there that feel like, you know, they've maybe hit a brick wall with their skin, you know, and they're not seeing results, they're not getting what you know they wanted to get.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know so many of our listeners chime in, you know, and they're like, I've spent like a thousand dollars.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: I see nothing, no results, you know.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: What is your advice for a consumer like that in terms of taking care of their skin?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think first of all, I want everybody to know that you're you are beautiful and your skin can be as beautiful as you want it to be.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's just finding the right, the right steps, the right ingredients, the right procedures, right?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you want to really like analyze your goal and what those things are.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like for example, you want to stop breaking out, or you want to be more hydrated, or you just want glow.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you, you know, you just want your face to look glowy.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whatever that is, um, just remember that it is possible to get.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're just not hitting the right thing, and it's not about throwing money at it.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like um people and myself included, you go on TikTok, you want to buy everything.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, everything sounds good.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Every person, influencer who's putting stuff on their face, they look beautiful.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: I want to look like that, you know, certainly.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: But not everything is right for everyone.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just sort of like pare down the routine to like good cleanser, that's a must, uh, good one or two serums, and then a moisturizer that can be used night and day.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, just start with like, you know, those four things, not not anything else.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you've got those four things, then you know, get your exfoliator and then maybe like a nice sheet mask.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: But really, like I want people to understand that like when you're washing your face at night, you have to wash with the intention of getting everything off from the day.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a two-second part of your routine, it is the most important part of your routine.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: A minute, a minute and a half.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: And while you're doing that, I want you to think of something that you love about yourself because we spend so much time in the mirror with like bad talking, bad discourse, ripping to shreds every detail of the way that we look.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it does something to you on the inside.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I truly feel that at some point it's really hard to make you happy.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there's no there's no thing that's gonna make you happy if you're doing that to yourself all the time.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: So if you just think like, God, I was so good today at work, or like I love this, I love my skin tone, or I I love the way this looks to me.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of being like, I hate that line, I hate this pore, I hate my nose, I hate my just whatever, then I think that it might change the way you look at yourself a little bit.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, meanwhile, you are washing your face in a really positive way, getting all the grime off of your face.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's something so powerful and important for your skin on that.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then treatment step, addressing that one goal that you have with your serum, and then a nice moisturizer.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the secret to having great skin.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: That was that's wonderful.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I can't thank you enough.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: This has been such a lovely conversation.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: I could talk to you for hours.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're so sweet.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: This was so fun.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.