Latest / Soul Salon with Ayandastood / 9: connected conflict Ft. Zanele Mji

Transcript

9: connected conflict Ft. Zanele Mji · Soul Salon with Ayandastood

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  I'm not necessarily avoiding this task or avoiding this conversation.
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  I'm avoiding the bodily sensations.
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  And what are the bodily sensations, their memories of other conflicts that
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  I've had where I actually wasn't safe.
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  Oh my goodness.
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  The sun shines out of you and into me.
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  Hello, sun shines and welcome to reimagining with I understood a podcast
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  where we reframe, rethink and reimagine everything,
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  standing in the way of love and liberation.
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  I'm your host, Ayyanda, and I am delighted, enchanted, ecstatic,
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  overjoyed to have a slice of your precious time today.
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  Hello, darling. How are you today?
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  I'm fine. How are you?
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  I'm so well. Thank you.
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  It's so lovely to have you here with us.
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  I listened to your podcast this morning, and it's so amazing.
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  And it's actually exactly what I needed because the fact that especially when
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  you leave home, you want to stay connected to the stories of actual people.
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  And I think it's just an amazing way to do that.
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  What is it called again?
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  Golden city.
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  Golden city, everyone.
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  It is so beautiful.
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  And the way that you are such an amazing storyteller.
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  And I love the way that you narrate people's stories, the music and the vibe.
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  And also the unique stories that you are bringing to light.
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  I think it's so important.
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  And I listened to the one about mental health in a facility and all the parallels
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  to all the arguments for abolition.
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  It's just like, so it really spoke to me.
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  So, yeah, just punitive approaches to care.
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  It just makes no sense when it's so harmful.
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  But thank you for being here.
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  We would love to start with who you are in your own words.
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  I am Zanele.
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  I love a good story.
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  I'm a storyteller that has translated into like a career as a writer and a journalist.
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  And then I'm also like a student of life and of relationships.
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  I'm just constantly every day trying to learn and grow in my relation to other people.
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  I always say this, if we don't have love, literally everything sees us to exist.
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  Literally, I love that.
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  A student of life and a student of relationships.
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  That's so beautiful.
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  Yes, I so agree with that.
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  What drew you to this way of thinking about relating in such a creative and thoughtful way?
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  I think I had to get creative about my approaches to relating because I just had so much to learn.
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  We all have our stuff, right, that we grow up with, that we carry around with us.
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  And eventually my stuff just got so heavy.
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  And I knew that my relationships were at once the cure and the cause.
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  But I just had to sift through all that stuff.
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  I want to say hungry for love that almost sounds deficit, but it's not a deficit.
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  I can never get enough love.
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  I can never get enough connection.
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  And so I had to learn to get out of my own way and figure out what my obstacles are that get in the way of my relationships.
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  So I'm still a working progress.
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  I mean, I talk about it in the past.
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  Of course.
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  Cause yeah, I'm still figuring it out.
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  Yeah, it's a lifelong journey.
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  And I love this language of being hungry for love.
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  And I think it's not sounding like a deficit at all.
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  And the way that food like nutrients, it's what connects us to the earth to other forms of life that literally feed us and
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  invigorate us.
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  And so it is a hunger because it's also ongoing.
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  We always crave more love and different forms of love.
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  And I think for me, when I started to think more creatively about relationships and what they can be so
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  long as we're willing to go there, which I am so excited to talk to you about.
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  And then also all the conditioning around which relationships in our lives are supposed to be on a pedestal or
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  supposed to define us as lacking something versus not in this hyper obsession with romantic love instead of all the
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  different forms of love and rethinking their relationships in our lives.
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  So I'm really excited to get your opinion on this.
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  I'm a fellow relationship lover in terms of trying to think really deeply and creatively about relationships to self and
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  to others and to earth to parents, everything.
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  So I would love to start with your thoughts on a topic that I think is such an important ongoing conversation in our lives and
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  comes up in so many different ways and probably should come up more.
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  And it's conflict.
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  It's such an important topic.
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  And so I'm so excited to speak to you about it because I know you have a lot of thoughts on conflict.
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  So I just love to start at the very top.
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  What is conflict to you?
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  I think conflict is when how I see things and how I would like things to be bumps up against someone else's
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  on things, which I guess that's an interpersonal conflict.
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  And then obviously we can have inner conflict within ourselves.
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  And then inner conflict is just the same thing.
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  I think I've been recently reading up.
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  I'm reading the body keeps the score.
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  I really recommend that as a part that's talking about inner family systems therapy, right?
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  And that's when you start to engage with yourself as separate beings and members of a community that all serve a purpose for the protection and upholding of the self, right?
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  That the center of the circle, a circle of people, firefighters, managers, these names for all of these people that encircle yourself and
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  protect you and have gotten you through everything you've gotten through, right?
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  So that gave me a whole new understanding of what a conflict is because it's like, okay, and what is that inner family systems therapy?
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  It's they all have different views of what's based for you, but they all want what's based for you like those in a self, right?
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  Some of them think what's based for you is to fight.
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  Some of them think what's based for you is to retreat.
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  Some of them think what's based for you is to phone over the person who's hurting you or whatever.
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  So there's like interpersonal conflict where it's like what you think is based and what I think is based against each other.
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  And then it's like inner conflict way.
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  There's a whole lot of myself that want the base for me, but at different stages in my life, all these other inner selves in a self formed as a result of the difficult things I've gone through.
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  And it's about me like integrating them and bringing them to coexist with each other and also stand down.
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  So my true self can shine through.
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  So I don't know if that was a little bit of a...
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  Wow. No, that is a prediction.
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  You have just reframed the self and personhood to me.
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  I'm obsessed with this thinking of the self as an inner family.
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  What is it called?
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  Inner family system.
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  Inner family system.
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  I literally think my mind is like electrified because this is so beautiful.
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  We have so many multiple selves inside of us.
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  And I think so much of the one natured view of especially Western approaches to like psychology and the mind.
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  That's so interesting because that makes sense why we wrestle with ourselves and certain things.
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  And we then view that negatively, but this really turns it into such a generative and loving process that we have different.
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  Oh, my word.
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  I'm just like, there's the parents in you that just wants you to be okay and safe and well.
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  And then maybe there's fun friend who is just encouraging you to have another drink.
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  Even though you know you'll be tired tomorrow.
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  I mean, that's a really trivial example.
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  But there's so many ways that we have all of these competing goals and narratives and stories inside of us.
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  And I think why I'm really connecting to this is it takes something like I'm a humanist.
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  And I love ideas that reconcile that we are actually the way we're meant to be.
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  And we just lack the understanding to fully appreciate how beautiful and wonderful we are in and of ourselves.
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  And so wow, thank you so much for sharing that with us.
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  I'm definitely going to read this book.
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  The body keeps the score in a family system.
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  I'm rooting for all of you.
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  So that is beautiful.
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  Yeah. And then kind of when you look at how you show up in conflict, then you can ask yourself,
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  okay, which in a self is throwing up to this fight?
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  Because sometimes it's the defensive style.
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  Sometimes it's the overly permissive self who just lets this person get away with disrespecting you.
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  Like who's showing up?
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  And who are you normally showing up?
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  Oh my gosh.
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  Yes. Wow.
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  Those are my two strong.
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  I didn't have the words for it in my mind.
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  But exactly like defensive, like learned basically in the last year,
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  like how defensive I can become even though that's something that I would have not thought that I was.
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  But when I feel triggered or when I feel emotionally activated,
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  it is a response that I need to manage my defensive self.
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  But sometimes your defensive self helps you, right?
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  And needs to speak up more.
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  So I love this idea of trying to reflect on which one typically shows up.
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  What are other questions or reflections that you think are important
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  as we work in a family system way of viewing things?
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  I think a big game changer for me also from this book, like massive.
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  And not just for conflict, but for everything is the physical aspect of any sort of attention, right?
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  Like any sort of moment for me, it was why do I have a strong conflict avoidant streak, right?
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  Like what am I avoiding when I avoid conflict?
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  And it's you're avoiding the discomfort of the conflict, right?
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  It's uncomfortable.
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  So what does uncomfortable mean?
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  Where is it uncomfortable?
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  Is it uncomfortable in your head?
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  Is it uncomfortable in your heart?
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  Where is it uncomfortable?
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  And for me, I was like, I always talk now about physical symptoms
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  because it's actually the main thing I actually talk about now, rather than emotions,
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  because it's like what I'm avoiding is my heart racing.
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  I start to sweat a bit more.
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  My body physically, I want to literally physically run away.
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  So for me, if I didn't experience those bodily sensations,
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  I'd be able to stay in pretty much any conversation.
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  It's the bodily sensation.
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  I was just feeling normal in my body while these conversations are happening.
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  Then they wouldn't stress me out.
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  I'd just be feeling normal in my body.
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  So then I was like, okay, and this was a big thing for me,
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  even in my creative process.
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  And maybe in a family systems therapy, right?
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  Like why am I avoiding working on projects that are really important to me?
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  Why am I procrastinating?
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  Why am I fighting myself on this project?
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  Why am I conflict with myself on this project that I really want to release?
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  And my podcast was a big, I always saw my friends.
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  I'm like, you guys think I'm just doing a podcast,
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  but I'm fighting for my life, yeah.
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  Doing shadowing.
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  Oh my gosh, literally, literally.
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  Wow, oh my gosh, you have to unpack that for that.
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  But yes, oh my goodness.
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  Oh my gosh, you guys just listen.
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  Like, oh, that was good.
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  Oh my gosh, I'm fighting for my life.
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  No, literally, oh my goodness, I feel so seen.
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  Wow, yes, exactly.
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  Oh my gosh, I love this.
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  Yes, keeper.
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  Take your time.
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  If this is what your podcast is doing to you, don't give up on it,
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  but take your time and don't force yourself through those sensations.
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  They're very real and they're very, very real.
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  Yeah, and forcing yourself through them leads to burn up.
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  But anyway, so like I was saying about, yeah, bodily sensations.
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  So for me, it came down to, okay, I'm not necessarily avoiding this task
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  or avoiding this conversation.
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  I'm avoiding the bodily sensations.
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  And what are the bodily sensations?
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  Their memories of other conflicts that I've had where I actually wasn't safe.
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  Oh my goodness.
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  Yes, exactly.
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  Oh my gosh.
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  Yes, say more.
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  It's a physical lock-in of actually when you did have a conflict with someone
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  and you weren't safe.
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  And then it locks in and it's like, I'm going to avoid that forever.
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  So yeah, for me, focusing on my physical symptoms and processing those
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  so that they don't arise at the thought of confronting things,
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  at the thought of conflicts with people.
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  And then also when I'm in conflict with people, for me was a big game changer.
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  Wow, that is such a game changer.
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  That's so powerful.
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  I love the body connection and this false separation of mind, body, soul
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  and this integrated whole of things interacting and giving us symptoms
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  of where we're at, what we've experienced and what needs to be reconciled within us.
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  I find that something that's helped me manage that feeling like
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  where I'm feeling the discomfort in a conflict moment,
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  like I'm having a difficult conversation.
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  I'm receiving difficult feedback about how I've shown up in a relationship,
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  for example, and breathing, whoo, breathing really will change your life.
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  I know it sounds like a scam, but literally the deep breath, work of literally
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  like, I'm okay, I'm safe, I'm breathing.
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  And that also takes away some of the heightened emotions of feeling attacked,
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  like reminding yourself that you're not being attacked and like everyone is
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  you're safe because it's an evolutionary response or protection
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  that you're feeling the sense of danger.
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  And then what I love also about what you're saying is that it's because
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  it's reminding you it's taking you to a place in your experience in your body
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  where you really haven't been safe and we haven't experienced healthy conflict.
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  And so we activate into these modes of being and very subconsciously.
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  And I think bringing that consciousness back through things like breathing,
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  through things like a body scan or something really being in your body
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  in the moment and understanding where you feel something.
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  And then the other thing which ties this idea of the body connection to this idea
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  of in a family system is I used to think that conflict could only be resolved
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  in a conversation with someone, but I've realized the power of journaling
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  and really working.
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  I'm not saying it's in either or but they're both and of like,
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  what do I actually need to also resolve in myself?
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  Like why is this showing up for me in this way has been so so helpful,
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  even like writing a letter to the person, but they're never sending it or
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  really just letting yourself say that brave thing that you are afraid to say.
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  And I think I heard this on a podcast that I can't remember because I just
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  can't remember where it was from, but she was saying that our generation
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  has this unfortunate mental condition that we always feel like we're being
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  watched. So we don't feel safe admitting to things even in the privacy of a
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  journal because it feels like someone might read it.
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  And many of us don't have privacy in our homes.
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  For example, you might be in this position like I've had privacy luckily,
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  but I still feel like, Oh, what if I write this down and someone reads it in my
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  locked apartment? It's all very not feasible, but because we've grown up with
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  social media and all this stuff, I think a lot of us feel like we shouldn't be
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  writing anything unless we intend to share it.
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  And if we do write something, we have this fear that it's being surveyed.
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  And so I think the journaling helps to bring that sense of like where you are
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  in your mind, body, soul, and which let your inner family system really speak
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  out the conflict. And then you can come into the actual conflict with the
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  person with a lot more intentionality, thoughtfulness and awareness of where
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  your trigger points are. So yeah, wow, you're really inspiring me to think
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  differently about conflict.
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  What is your conflict approach? What's your style?
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  Yeah. So okay, I'm going to go to the, I do totally resonate with the
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  avoidance side of it. And it's something that I've had to learn. So basically
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  I view conflict as an opportunity to either deepen a connection or break it.
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  I always think it's going to make us me and this person even closer.
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  It's such a vulnerable thing to do. Even though it's scary, it's like the
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  short term pain of this versus the long term. You sit in these disappointed
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  emotions for years, even where you wish someone treated you differently or
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  you have all of these things. And so I try to really think about that this
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  discomfort that I'm going to experience is worth it because I'm trying to
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  co-create a higher version of this relationship and really be honest with
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  my expectations and my feelings and my hurts. And I'm really speak up for my
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  inner child. So what I try to do is it depends. Let's say it's a close friend.
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  I'll try to reconcile things in my mind first and really understand what am I
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  trying to get out of this conflict. And then I'll try to ground it in love.
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  Like I love you. And this is where we're coming from with this. But it's a whole
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  like that for nonviolent system. I actually looked this from my ex who was
• 15:06
  a monster in some ways, but really good at communicating in others and very
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  good at nonviolent communication, repeating back. So what I'm hearing is this
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  those types of things I had never seen been done before that someone is not
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  trying to argue or respond. They're trying to really understand what you're
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  saying and then affirming it. So I try to do that. The four step not
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  approach to nonviolent communication is first observations, second feelings,
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  third needs, fourth asks. So for example, let's say I need a lot of attention, right?
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  So let's say someone I'm with is a friend. Anyone is like always on their phone.
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  I would say, Hey, I noticed that you are spending a lot of time on your phone
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  when we have scheduled quality time together. And then second, this makes me feel
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  like you don't value our time together or you're not fully present.
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  Third, I really need relationships that feel like they're grounded in a deep
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  kind of presence and attention. Fourth, so could I ask that you try to
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  limit your time on your phone, at least to maybe for the first hour or something.
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  So it's all very concrete and it's based on observable things that we can both agree on.
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  But then this meaning you're attaching to the thing that someone else
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  may not be attaching because that's really I think often where it gets lost.
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  And then how this relates to your personal story of needs. So that's kind of my
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  approach in theory in practice. It's often the show. So I don't know.
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  What about you? Sorry, it's worked for so long, but what about you?
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  That is so well put out. It's a book called Nonviolent Communication.
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  It's very good. Noted. So I think I'm battling up against a fearful,
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  avoidant attachment style. Yes, tell us, tell us, tell us more.
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  They're just completely avoiding it. Oh, like we got to talk about it now.
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  Oh, yes, yes. And I know it really worked for people.
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  So I think my biggest thing untangling is and I love what you said about
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  this nonviolent communication and these I think she said four steps, right?
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  Because that's so helpful for someone like me because I feel like I never know how to tell
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  people I'm sad, hurt, I'm all those things. And then just let that be what it is.
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  Yes, like I always try to process things. I'm either talking about things when I'm completely
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  over them. And completely over them means that I've like withdrawn from you to
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  process, which is not fair to that person, which is not fair.
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  Oh, let's talk about it now so that I don't do that thing where I disappear.
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  So that's been my biggest challenge in my approach to conflict is I'm either telling you,
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  hey, you know, that thing you did back then, I've processed it now. I'm 100%
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  99. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's been really difficult for me.
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  And when we talk about like I found a middle ground in trying to seek connected conflict
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  because when I do the avoidant thing, when I do the process it by myself thing,
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  that's like a disconnect from the person. And when I do the okay, but now thing,
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  that's also like a form of disconnect from the person. So it's me been trying to figure out.
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  And that's why I love all this advice that you just gave because that's exactly how you do it,
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  is you process your feelings and you break it down into, yeah, I need this. I didn't get this.
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  And this is my perception of the situation. And I think I do struggle to do that because I tend
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  to either be hyper independent or confrontational. Yeah, I understand that. Finding that balance,
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  it's very difficult. Actually, it's so funny because I think so much of it is so rooted in not
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  wanting to, as you say, like be uncomfortable and then also inconvenience people with like our needs.
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  Because sometimes for me, I feel the sense of, is it okay for me to feel this way? And I've really
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  had to process those feelings of it's not normalized in our culture to take up space to be
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  inconvenient, like to be someone who has needs higher than the base minimum. For example,
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  right now, I need to pee. I need to pee for 15 minutes, but I didn't want to break the flow
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  of the conversation. But why am I suffering? Literally, the saddest thing, my room is about to be
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  pitch black. And I'm like, how do I tell I end? I just need to go switch the light on.
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  Oh my goodness. I've been freaking out all the time. I'm like, it's about to be pitch black in this
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  room. And I'm not sending anything. It is amazing. Oh my goodness. Okay. That's literally so funny.
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  This is the burden we carry as women. It's like how we were socialized.
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  Right. And it's also so rooted, I think, in ableism in our subconscious minds, because it's so
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  much more normalized, like among disabled people have needs and ask for needs and to be met.
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  And there's something called access intimacy, which Mia Mingus, who came on my podcast,
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  where she spoke about how accessibility is love. And when you love people, you create space for
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  them to be there for yourself to take up space to have needs to need help. And so like this
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  interdependence is feeling that both of us are sitting here with a distinct need to do something.
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  But we don't want to break the flow of something. Well, I don't know. We don't want to be an
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  inconvenience to the other person or to the expectation that is had for a podcast is something
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  that runs for 60 minutes and doesn't stop. And yet that social norm is then conditioned. And
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  it's so many things. It's as women to be agreeable. Oh my gosh. When will I be free? It's so sad.
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  Also, when you know things in theory, but putting them in practice in your life are so difficult.
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  Like I'm really struggling with people pleasing tendencies and where to go from that.
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  You mentioned these two extremes of instant confrontation versus avoidance.
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  When you have managed to like have the conversation, what has helped you get to that point?
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  Like are there any practices or affirmations or things that get you to maybe be somewhere in the
• 20:48
  middle or that get you to the confrontation mark? Because I also think it is natural that sometimes
• 20:53
  things just have to come up when they come up. Well, thank you. That's what I was going to say is that
• 20:58
  I kind of went on this must become Zen mission with myself. Like must kill the F out thing.
• 21:07
  And I went in this big circle that came back to connected conflict is also sometimes people
• 21:12
  knowing that like, okay, that it is freaking out right now. I'm not freaking out. I can hold
• 21:18
  space for it. It's okay. It's okay. And that's what I said. So yeah, that's the balance I'm trying
• 21:24
  to strike. And you say the journaling has been my number one number one for
• 21:29
  processing things and knowing actually what's at stake and what's actually going on, right?
• 21:33
  Before I have these conversations. Yes. But also my new thing that I've started trying lately
• 21:38
  when I do bring things up in the moment because I do think that there is a time sensitive element
• 21:42
  to connected conflict. Yes. And that's what keeps the avoidance at bay. And I think just observing
• 21:48
  myself and my approach to conflict, I noticed that I use my phone as a tool to avoid conflict.
• 21:54
  So I'll tell myself that I'll be in a moment, in a room with someone, but I'll wait to text
• 21:59
  them later about an issue that's like really difficult for me to talk about. And I don't think
• 22:05
  that's healthy. Like I don't. Yeah. For me, if I had to choose between a friend waiting to text me
• 22:10
  like a really well-processed message later and someone willing to be a little bit messy with me
• 22:16
  in the moment, I'll definitely choose messy with me in the moment every single time. I've started
• 22:22
  trying to sharpen that way as well. But what that's taken is me saying to my friends, hey, listen,
• 22:28
  I'm working on not being an avoidant person. Like avoidant me would just go a little bit cold on
• 22:35
  you for like two to three weeks while I process this. And then I'll come back my normal self. But
• 22:41
  I'd rather just kind of have it out with you a little bit. Think about how we are with our siblings,
• 22:45
  right? So that's been my big thing is telling people, hey, listen, I'm working on not being
• 22:50
  avoidant. And so it means that I want to bring this up to you in the moment. And there's a good chance
• 22:55
  I might do that imperfectly. But stay with me here. Stay with me. It's had mixed results, but I keep
• 23:00
  trying. Yeah. Wow. That's so, so good. I love that. And I also think that's so interesting
• 23:07
  because this you speaking up in this moment where the conflict isn't happening, but you're
• 23:12
  preempting and also making it like a shared goal. That's also kind of a form of connected conflict.
• 23:18
  Don't you think because it's within that practice of alerting your friends that you are working on
• 23:22
  this thing, you're breaking a social norm. Like that's uncomfortable to do as well. I'm not sure
• 23:26
  you find it uncomfortable. Maybe you don't. But there's something about the idea that you may be
• 23:31
  breaching an expectation of how you're meant to be communicating your needs is another form of
• 23:35
  using conflict to deepen a connection between you and someone because even in just sharing,
• 23:40
  hey, I'm working on conflict. I'm going to be messy. Please just stay with me. That's a deep
• 23:45
  form of vulnerability and courage like many people would struggle to advocate for their needs in
• 23:50
  that way. I mean, I would have or maybe would even now. And so I think it's a philosophy. It happens
• 23:55
  not only in the moment where two people are battling out, but it's a way that how am I going to be
• 24:00
  an artist in my approach to conflict? Like how am I going to use conflict to deeper my connections
• 24:06
  with people that I care about? And that's going to happen both when we have conflict and actually
• 24:11
  like when we have none at all. And so I think that's a really, really powerful. I'm curious
• 24:15
  if you have any reactions to that, but also I think I was late to journaling in part because
• 24:20
  there are these things that people tell you to do. And they sound so like up in the sky and you're
• 24:25
  like, what does that even mean? Like what is journaling? Is it just me opening my journal and writing
• 24:29
  things? I know there's so many thoughts, but I've finally started journaling. And so I'm curious,
• 24:34
  maybe we can both talk through like what do you tactically do in your journal? What are you writing
• 24:38
  about? When? How? Like just so people feel like it's so tangible in their minds. How they could
• 24:44
  incorporate this practice into their lives? Sure. So I have been on a long journey when it comes to
• 24:50
  journaling. It was a force for like the first three years. It was just not something that came
• 24:55
  naturally to me. And I've gone through a lot of different types of journaling, bullet journaling,
• 25:00
  like list, morning pages. That was actually my introduction to journaling. Morning pages is a
• 25:05
  practice from a book called The Artist Way. And it's about like reconnecting with your creative
• 25:09
  self. And so you get up and you write three pages like first thing in the morning before you
• 25:13
  even fully awake. Your journal lives next to your bed. So that was my force introduction to
• 25:17
  journaling. Like do it first thing kind of thing. And now my journaling is at a very interesting
• 25:23
  place. And this is I guess a benefit of working from home. I live journal throughout the day.
• 25:28
  And it's been a huge aid for my creative process. So when I'm sitting down to create something
• 25:33
  and those bodily sensations start to come up, which I used to think we're procrastination,
• 25:38
  but it's actually just me avoiding all those scary feelings I have when I make things.
• 25:43
  I write them down. I'll be like I'm sitting right now at my desk. I'm trying to edit this podcast
• 25:47
  episode and everything in me wants to just get out from the table and do something else.
• 25:52
  Physically, this is what I'm feeling. Mentally, these are the thoughts coming to my head. This is
• 25:56
  what the voices in my head are saying. This is what my pit of my stomach feels like. Like I literally
• 26:01
  I pull my journal out in that moment. And that was something I decided to do when I stopped
• 26:05
  therapy because I was a little bit worried about who am I going to then two things. And then I was
• 26:10
  like, okay, I just have to really strengthen my relationship with my journal that has to be where I
• 26:14
  vent. And so that is where I'm now in my journaling journey. And I think my biggest advice to anyone
• 26:20
  who never approaches activities like me like with morning pages, always like write three pages. I
• 26:25
  think the best thing I can give advice people to do is start doing something with just no judgment
• 26:30
  or expectations of yourself and never to fill up any judgments or expectations with my journaling.
• 26:34
  Once I freed myself from that morning pages, have to do three pages thing. If I write one sentence,
• 26:40
  that's fine. Sometimes I've even written down, I don't feel like doing this. I'm avoiding journaling
• 26:44
  about these big feelings. I'm not doing this. And that will literally just be my journal entry.
• 26:50
  But yeah, that's how I journal. It's like a vent, a quick vent as I need it. And then another thing I
• 26:56
  do, which was a game changer, which I got from one of my favorite podcasts, Ghost of a podcast,
• 27:00
  by Jessica Lignado is I write 10 things I'm grateful for every single day. Yes. When in the day,
• 27:08
  do you do that? I journal in the mornings, but job. Also, if I don't think doing it in the morning,
• 27:12
  I'll write four things. And then I'll leave a space for six more. And if more come to me,
• 27:16
  more come to me, if they don't, they don't. But I really only stick with things when I stop forcing
• 27:21
  myself to do them in a student way. Yeah, I love, love, love that exactly. Oh, my word. And I love
• 27:26
  the gratitude. It really makes such a difference. It's truly, I think for me, sometimes when I hear
• 27:31
  something so many times, I start to distrust it. Like, for example, I used to think that drinking water
• 27:36
  was like a myth. Like my body would just tell me when I needed to hydrate. And then my doctor was like,
• 27:42
  no, I went to a physical exam and they were like, no, I love this. You're making journaling so
• 27:47
  tangible in my mind. Like I can picture you podcasting and getting frustrated. I'm so, so, wow,
• 27:52
  we should have go weekly just venting session because yes, it teaches you so much. And I think it's
• 27:57
  this approach like everything in your life is an opportunity to deepen your connection with something
• 28:03
  in you. And I think that the live journaling also helps. It's another form of connecting,
• 28:07
  a connecting through conflict. The conflict that you're having with yourself is now something that
• 28:11
  you're putting on a page and helping yourself process and letting those different family members
• 28:16
  really speak. And I also really like what you're saying about releasing expectation. I think that's
• 28:21
  so important. I think I do this where I'm like, oh, if I don't do this X number of times a day,
• 28:26
  then I'm just not going to do it at all. And I'm like, no, I have to stop thinking in those ways.
• 28:30
  It's not kind to myself. And it just doesn't happen. Like if I have this huge high bar, I then get
• 28:36
  dunted by the bar. And I just avoid doing it at all. And so my approach to journaling is I often
• 28:42
  wake up in journal first thing in the morning, whatever I'm thinking, some days I specifically write a
• 28:47
  love letter to myself. And I just try and ooze it with like so many words of love and affection and
• 28:51
  adoration. Because I do think that that practice has been really important to me because as much as
• 28:56
  I fully so love community love and love from others and that we're not meant to go through life alone.
• 29:02
  And I also think there's just things that I know about myself, mind, body, soul, spirit that no one
• 29:07
  else knows. And that's also beautiful. And so there's little things that I've worked on in myself that
• 29:12
  I'm so proud of that no one else knows. So for example, I used to be very addicted to Instagram.
• 29:17
  Like I would scroll through it and how it is. It's such an addicted platform. I completely never
• 29:21
  go on Instagram anymore. Like I deleted it. And I'm so much spiritually happier for that process.
• 29:26
  And my younger self, who was addicted to that platform and just consuming all these images of people
• 29:32
  and celebrities and people's lives and just trying to validate myself through this feeding this very
• 29:38
  empty part of me, which is still part of me. Maybe we can talk about your thoughts on like shadow
• 29:42
  work and what that means to you if anything. But then to this place where I am now where I'm like I
• 29:47
  love myself too much to be on that platform. And I know myself too well to think that I can be on
• 29:52
  that platform in a healthy way. And the fact that I was able to make the change and do that, that's
• 29:57
  something I'll journal to myself and be like, I'm just so proud of you. This was unimaginable to you
• 30:02
  three years ago. So when you're caught in the cycle of screen time on such high. And I think what
• 30:06
  you said earlier about how we use our phones to avoid conflict like wow, wow, wow, literally.
• 30:11
  I think that is such an important important point, not only in the sense that we then divert to
• 30:18
  the perfectly thought out text that then has been screen-shotted. I mean that type of conflict.
• 30:22
  Hopefully people are trying to bring as much integrity into their friendships and relationships as
• 30:26
  possible. But then also the notion that when we feel uncomfortable or left out, I've done this often.
• 30:32
  You're in a group setting. You feel left out. What do you do? You pull out your phone to feel like
• 30:36
  you're included in something. And so we avoid the conflict that we feel when you feel anxious
• 30:41
  in your life. Like you just what do you do? You grab your phone. And what I worry about, I don't
• 30:46
  blame individuals for doing this. They're so addictive. What I worry about is so many of us don't
• 30:51
  even know who we would have been if we didn't have a phone. Like our whole behaviors and habits and
• 30:56
  approach to anxiety and boredom and excitement and freedom and joy like all of these emotions
• 31:02
  are being mediated by this device. And I was reading a book that was speaking about how important
• 31:07
  boredom is for creativity. And I was thinking like, wow, imagine how much creativity has been lost
• 31:12
  in a sense. Because I don't even think it's because we have phones that are this way, but because
• 31:17
  they're constructed to be so deeply addictive. And like I just don't think that that's fair on
• 31:21
  people like structurally economically for these big tech companies to be able to do that to us,
• 31:26
  especially given their own like the whole never get high on your own supply, social dilemma stuff.
• 31:30
  So I just wanted to go on the phone conflict stuff. And I'm curious. I mentioned this briefly,
• 31:35
  but in your journaling practice, how you deal with the difficult sides of yourself. So envy,
• 31:41
  greed, competition, any negative things that come up for you. Like, is that a practice that you
• 31:45
  incorporate? Where do you try to go in journaling? Oh my gosh, yeah. I love what you said about the
• 31:51
  phones and who we would have been. Because I really truly mourn for what our romantic lives could
• 31:59
  have been without the invention of dating apps and social media. I truly feel poorer for those
• 32:07
  things just in my romantic life. And this is just an escapeable. Someone decided to invent an app
• 32:13
  and now desits. It's changed everything about the way I can relate to people. And whether you're
• 32:19
  on those apps or not, it's changed. It's not how you look at people. I'm not saying this as someone
• 32:25
  who's on the apps. I'm saying it's just changed everything in general. So my journaling,
• 32:29
  that's the sad part. Like I used to just not journal on days when I didn't feel like my best self.
• 32:33
  Like on days when I wasn't proud to write down what I was writing down, I just wouldn't write it. And
• 32:39
  so that was me just completely avoiding a totally real part of myself. And it became a disadvantage
• 32:47
  for me because I realized it took me long to get over things because I wasn't actually facing it.
• 32:52
  I was just trying to live around it. So yeah, I went through a breakup that took particularly
• 32:59
  long for me to get past. And at some point I realized it's because I'm just avoiding the
• 33:05
  ugliest parts of these feelings. And I'm not writing them down because I'm not writing them down.
• 33:09
  I don't really feel safe telling anyone. Well, actually, I would always perceive judgment.
• 33:13
  I was always perceiving judgment from other people when I tried to talk to them about this process
• 33:17
  that I was going through. And then I was like, is it judgment? Oh, you're just feeling your own
• 33:23
  judgment to yourself because you don't even talk to yourself about these things. Oh, yes, exactly.
• 33:28
  Yes, yes, yes. So then I had to start feeling my journal with things that aren't processed, empowered.
• 33:35
  And thank God for that because that was, I didn't realize me deciding, okay, I'm not going to not
• 33:41
  write about these things anymore was actually me starting shadow work. I didn't know what that's
• 33:44
  what it was. But once I started writing in my journal, the ugly feelings as they were there,
• 33:52
  that was shadow work. And I am so grateful for that because I was literally telling my aunt
• 33:55
  this very thing today. The best thing that came out from me out of doing shadow work is the fact
• 34:03
  that I had a look at all those ugly things and they are really not that bad. Yeah, like, my good
• 34:09
  parts more than make up for it. I was telling my aunt, I was like, I don't even want to work on
• 34:14
  my bad parts like they find. I'm good. I'm just going to keep growing my good parts and my passions
• 34:20
  and my this and my that all these things that I thought made me so fundamentally like,
• 34:25
  unlovable. I had a good look at them and I was like, there's just no way that people would think
• 34:31
  like I should be thrown away just because when I get really upset or frustrated, I cry.
• 34:40
  And like, raise my voice like I cry and get like passionate. If you think that is grounds for me
• 34:46
  to just be left in the gutter, well then you know what, there's like stealing, pillaging,
• 34:53
  immoral people out there. I'm not one of them. Yeah, it's also this idea that it's so interesting
• 35:00
  what you said about being thrown away or into the gutter. I've been thinking about disposability
• 35:04
  for so long and I'm writing about it right now because I just think it's such a part of our culture
• 35:09
  that they're underlie so much about shame. Like, will people throw me away? And even this idea that
• 35:14
  I just think like nature, nothing is disposable. And the book, Emergent Strategy, she speaks about
• 35:19
  this. How everything in nature is regenerative, it becomes something else. Nothing is ever
• 35:25
  ruined, destroyed or discarded of. And I think that as we do this shadow work, I think it's also
• 35:31
  there's the internal self that is like, oh, these things are so bad. And then there's the social
• 35:35
  structure that shaming people out of the notion of themselves, which is we're very complicated.
• 35:39
  There's so much harm in our society that of course it's going to be reflected in individuals. And
• 35:43
  I just believe that no one is disposable or we all should have access to people and resources
• 35:48
  that can help us retrieve like just help us be our fullest and safest and like most cared for
• 35:55
  self. And unfortunately that doesn't happen. And so I love what you said about learning to love
• 35:59
  the sides of yourself. But anyone who out there who maybe you have something in you that you do
• 36:04
  really feel is like unacceptable quote unquote, it is acceptable. You're a human being and you're
• 36:09
  wonderful and precious and you shouldn't be able to be disposed of. The fact that there are people
• 36:14
  in our society who will dispose of you or who will extricate you from their friend group or even
• 36:19
  this gets married and things like incarceration and harm. I think that that's more of a sickness
• 36:24
  of our culture. I don't think pre-colonial times. I don't think anyone was extricated. I mean,
• 36:29
  I'm sure it happened in certain there's so many cultures. But I think there were typically forms
• 36:33
  of reconciling forms of community-led harm reduction and stuff like this are toning and trying to
• 36:39
  reintegrate the whole. And so I think shadow work is super important and also acknowledging that
• 36:44
  you are lovable and you're just working on those sides of yourself is very important. Okay,
• 36:47
  I'm going so many different places. I wanted to ask your question because I agree with what you
• 36:51
  just said in theory, but I hit up again some things sometimes that I struggle with. So this idea,
• 36:56
  right? So what do you do with those people in your life who you don't want to be around?
• 37:02
  I don't want to build with you. I have no interest. You bring my spirit down. You bring out the worst
• 37:08
  parts of me. What do I do with you? Yeah, hey, that is a tough one. I think people should have a
• 37:17
  path to transformation, but not everyone wants to be transformed. So it depends the range of
• 37:24
  violence and toxicity. But I think, for example, if you have someone in your life who just brings
• 37:28
  out the worst in you in the perfect scenario, I feel like you would communicate to them and be like,
• 37:32
  hey, look, you're a vibe and my vibe, they don't get along. I find you a toxic person. And these are
• 37:38
  the things that I would need to see from you to like have you in my life in practice. I mean,
• 37:43
  I'm an avoidant person. I don't do that. And I wish I did. But when we think about harm,
• 37:47
  harm that people are causing our assistant, a symptom of another. And that is the root harm
• 37:52
  that should be resolved. If social harms were reduced in our culture, then I think there'd be
• 37:56
  less of the other forms of harm that exist. I don't have a very convincing answer on this.
• 38:01
  I don't know, because I want to not just say the theory. I think I really struggled with this.
• 38:04
  My therapist always tells me she doesn't say there's a bad thing. It's neither good nor bad. But it's
• 38:08
  like this intellectual you, which is, oh, like, this isn't theory. What should happen? But in my heart,
• 38:12
  like, yo, I don't want to be around people who make me feel a certain type of way. But maybe it's
• 38:17
  we aren't the arbiters of worth. If I'm not your friend anymore, that doesn't make you unworthy.
• 38:22
  It just means I can't be your friend. But I don't know. That's a good conclusion. Like,
• 38:28
  I don't want to be around you, but you're still a valuable human being in society,
• 38:32
  who I will protect. And it's so interesting. You say that because you just worked something
• 38:36
  out from me because I did face that situation where I wanted to quietly just recede. But once again,
• 38:44
  cell phones, whereas before people would reach a natural conclusion, now it's like, I'm commenting
• 38:51
  on your Instagram post and yeah, I'm sending you messages and you're not saying anything,
• 38:55
  which is fine. I must confront it. It's a relationship. I should end it properly. That's fine.
• 38:59
  And I literally said to this person, there's no hard feelings. I don't want to do this anymore.
• 39:06
  But there's no beef. I just want us to just dip back a little bit. And so to other people,
• 39:13
  it was like, how can you say there's no hard feelings? That's a very confusing message when you're
• 39:16
  telling someone you don't want to be their friend anymore. But it makes perfect sense to me.
• 39:22
  What I always think is how would I feel if the roles were reversed? Like, if I am a person who
• 39:27
  someone decides they no longer want to be friends with, what would I want them to do? Because that
• 39:32
  really for me brings into focus some of the hypocrisies that are living inside of me because
• 39:38
  it becomes so clear. Like, oh, I would want them to tell me what I did wrong. And it would suck,
• 39:42
  but I would want to have the opportunity because what if other people think that about me? And
• 39:45
  if I just learn this now, then I can have 30 years of healthy conflict, healthy relationships with
• 39:50
  people versus I'm going to find this out one way or another, but it might be like what, in 10 years
• 39:54
  when someone is brave enough to tell me. So I think that really, really like, okay, shit,
• 39:59
  like comes to all different forms of harm when you can really put yourself in that, what if this
• 40:03
  were me? Then how would I want people to move forward? And being ghosted is horrible. I've been
• 40:09
  ghosted. It's literally such a soul-sucking, horrible experience. And actually, I'm in this position
• 40:13
  where I feel like I have one person in my life who has left me behind is not present. You know,
• 40:18
  this feeling of abandonment that can happen in friendships when they'd fizzle out. And then I have
• 40:23
  another person in my life who I feel like I've left behind. I haven't communicated that I feel
• 40:27
  a bit differently about our friendship. And I feel to what you were saying that their energy
• 40:32
  takes me to a place that I just can't go. And I can feel the irony of like, I'm expecting this one
• 40:38
  person to do what I'm not doing for the other person. And that's kind of this ladder of doom thing
• 40:42
  that I have in my mind where it's like, we want people above us to pull us up in ways we never
• 40:47
  want to pull people up. Not all of us, obviously, but there's this hypocrisy, right? This like,
• 40:51
  oh, communicate openly with me, but you're, I don't want to miss with that. That's too much.
• 40:55
  And it's so clear, right? Like, isn't it so obvious that this is happening, but it's not obvious
• 40:59
  to the person? So I definitely struggle, but that reframe definitely helps me like, wow, you're in
• 41:03
  the wrong. Yeah, what would I want? Yeah, that's also a great approach to conflict. And I think
• 41:09
  I love what you say about these overarching larger systems, because it's true. We are living
• 41:13
  these systems in our interpersonal relationships. And I experience that in, I don't know, I've started
• 41:18
  to talk about rather than friendship or family, I've started to talk about kin because to me,
• 41:25
  that feels like a much more resilient form of relating. Sometimes I think friendship is very
• 41:32
  I send them. And so is family the way it's now started to function. And for me, like, what is kin?
• 41:40
  kin is just your community, like it's the people around you. And it's all of us being responsible
• 41:44
  for each other. And also, I think kin is less about, do we click? Oh, interesting. Oh, it's like,
• 41:51
  are we committed to each other? Yeah, like, I was talking about this, and I was just saying like,
• 41:56
  I grew up in a family friend group of other kids around my age, who I was. That's amazing.
• 42:02
  Close with not because we were friends, but because our parents stuck by each other through
• 42:07
  everything. And when I look at the relationships between our parents, I wouldn't call it best
• 42:14
  friends. I can see in a lot of ways, the ways in which my parents differed from their kin and
• 42:20
  from their circle, lifestyle wise, religion wise, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But none of that
• 42:26
  mattered. We're all doing this together and we're all caring for each other. And we're all
• 42:32
  walking through life together through the years. And I look back now and I find something very
• 42:39
  resilient about that. And it's weird to call friendship less personal because relationships are
• 42:46
  very personal things. But I do think like kinship is a lot less personal. It leaves a lot less
• 42:52
  space for us to have different lifestyles, different religions, different views on things. But
• 42:58
  we got to survive this world together and celebrate occasions and raise our kids and do all these
• 43:06
  things. So yeah, I think I had a brief conversation with you last time we spoke and I was just saying like,
• 43:11
  also, I have my thoughts about the limitations of friendship. And I do think that even when we talk
• 43:16
  about conflict and getting along and all those things, I think friendship places a huge emphasis
• 43:21
  on things like that. Are we getting along? What are you saying to me? When did you text me? This
• 43:28
  is going to sound dangerous to say like, what are your political views or what are your religious
• 43:32
  views? It sounds dangerous to say because I almost don't want to go there because obviously that
• 43:35
  stuff is like mega important, especially in the world we live in today where people's views are just
• 43:40
  so intensely up against each other all the time. But there's a version of kinship I think with
• 43:46
  our commitment to each other overrides at all. Yeah, you just took me places. That's so true. And
• 43:53
  I think in a position where you feel really hurt by someone, but you just know even though you
• 43:59
  feel a lot of pain, a lot of shame, a lot of hurt, disappointment, you keep thinking about it and
• 44:04
  you know that you can't, this just really gave me language for that because that's kinship. You know
• 44:09
  like you feel as in that's a version of it where like you just know women to do life together.
• 44:14
  Like this, I'm still committed to you. It's not about oh, you didn't text me back. We haven't
• 44:18
  texted in, you know, I haven't seen you in two years. Like there's hurts and pain, but we are
• 44:22
  kin. What I also love, love, love about what you're telling us is it circles back to how dating apps
• 44:28
  and technology are changing how we're relating because I think the reason why people experience less
• 44:32
  kinship is they're not as bound in space and time to having a community that they are invested
• 44:39
  and committed to. And so there's a sense that why would I maintain this friendship when I could
• 44:43
  just get another or when I have others. And so there's this way that there's much more of a
• 44:48
  transactional approach to friendship. It's not like, oh, we're all we have. That's how relationships
• 44:52
  were in the past, right? This is our place. This is our village. This is the land we occupy on.
• 44:57
  Like these are our people. And so I wonder with the kinship that you're describing with your
• 45:01
  parents and family friends, they don't have a disposable approach to friendship. Like it's not
• 45:06
  like, oh, your political view bothered me today. So I'm no longer going to know these are our people.
• 45:10
  Like we are kin. And so I agree with you that it's a dangerous like I don't mean to trivialize
• 45:15
  like how important I agree with you. Everything you said about not wanting to reduce it. But when we
• 45:19
  think about it, I think there's a fundamental connection there between the type of kinship you
• 45:24
  described and how technology is the antithesis of that type of commitment. And I mean, we can still
• 45:30
  have it. Of course, because the other interesting thing is a lot of us have kinship in multiple
• 45:35
  directions, but less so those people also being connected. I feel like a lot of my friendships are,
• 45:40
  I'm really close to this person. I'm really close to this person. I'm really close to this person.
• 45:44
  But I don't have as much of those deep, inter bonded. I don't even mean like a friend group because
• 45:50
  sometimes the things that happen in like friend groups, it's also not necessarily what I'm talking about.
• 45:54
  But when people have a true kinship between multiple people, I think that's really beautiful and
• 46:00
  something that should be cherished because that's wonderful. And the word you used where you said
• 46:04
  that kinship is more resilient. I think that is so, so important. That's huge. And these are the
• 46:10
  bonds that sustained people, human beings for centuries, like the types of bonds, right? And I think
• 46:16
  we necessarily must try to prioritize that commitment in our lives, that devotion to you beyond
• 46:23
  the quotidian aspects of what might come up in a day to day type of vibe. And oh, you heard my
• 46:28
  feelings today or like even big pains, big slides that you're not disposable. It also links to that.
• 46:33
  Like you're not disposable. So that was very powerful. I love this framework of kinship.
• 46:38
  I think the closest I've experienced it all I've had to frame it around is and you're right about
• 46:42
  it being linked to place and how rooted you are in your physical space and not everywhere else
• 46:48
  through your phone. Then you have a million people you could be afraid with and I'm guilty of this
• 46:52
  as well. Just turning to my internet friends when the real life people are like rubbing me the wrong
• 46:58
  way. Well, never mind. I've got my parasocial relationships. I'm just going to disappear into the
• 47:02
  internet. I'm guilty of it too. But yeah, you're so right about a location and a place because
• 47:07
  something very comparable to that for me is that I went to the same school from grade one until grade 12.
• 47:12
  And so the people who I see now who I went and I guess it was a small enough school so that the
• 47:16
  people who I see now who I went to school with, we had absolutely nothing to do with each other.
• 47:21
  Like we were so different culturally, everything, everything. Our lives have gone in such different
• 47:25
  directions, but they're kind of safety and like being well known that I feel around people who I
• 47:31
  saw every single day for 12 years. I've never really replicated that emotion ever again.
• 47:39
  And not everyone was my friend, but that was such a small community that I feel like there's
• 47:43
  a level of knowing people in a way where you don't need them to be your friend. They're just your
• 47:48
  community. Yeah, and I do think there can be online communities that provide this kinship like
• 47:54
  especially people who have been devoted to a certain community for a long time because a lot of
• 47:57
  people are excluded from the benefits of social because I think even when we think of things like
• 48:03
  desire, some people have more access to being made friends with. And I've experienced this way.
• 48:08
  Some people have a lot of options for who they could be friends with. And I think other people
• 48:13
  don't have as many like, oh, I could just be friends with everyone because someone wanting to be
• 48:16
  your friend, it links to them binding you someone that is worth being friends with. And I think
• 48:21
  unfortunately, often these are tied to very ugly parts of people, very ableist, racist, many
• 48:27
  different things where, for example, a lot of people maybe they're the only black person in their
• 48:31
  town or maybe they're disabled or maybe they're way online communities can actually fill that gap
• 48:35
  of wow, I found my people. And I think especially if there's like a niche like a specific identity
• 48:41
  or interest, I once interviewed this girl and she's like a black skater. There's very few black
• 48:46
  skaters. Then I also know that a lot of online disabled communities are like critical because
• 48:51
  accessibility of that space, especially for physically disabled people is really important as
• 48:55
  well. And so all like neurodivergence, I'm seeing through TikTok, I do think they are important
• 49:00
  communities. And I think it's always like a both. And if you do have access to people who you could
• 49:05
  make physical bread with as in make bread, join connections with, I do think that's such an important
• 49:11
  space if possible. Also really try and nurture. And it's something that I've been thinking about a lot.
• 49:16
  Like I feel like I've been floating around and I'm like, where do I want to be rooted? Because
• 49:20
  amazing things do happen when you root yourself. Not permanently. By rooted, I don't only mean stay,
• 49:25
  but like, oh, I'm here. So I'm really going to be here. I'm going to know my neighbors. And
• 49:30
  unfortunately, in many parts of the world, that's very uncommon, which is not good. It's not good.
• 49:34
  But no, I love this notion of kinship. And you said something about baggage or friendship. And I
• 49:41
  do want to go there because I think that's such an interesting take. Like what do you think? You
• 49:45
  said that friendship can be us versus them. And you think that you just seem to have thoughts about
• 49:50
  friendships. I wanted to just pick your brain on that. Yeah, I do think I don't know. Like I just have
• 49:55
  this and I sort of perfectly formed thought, but I just have this idea on my mind as my experience
• 50:00
  of friendship has been fragile. The fragility of friendship up against romantic relationships is
• 50:06
  also something. It just doesn't seem to have that same tiff line protection. It's the first thing
• 50:11
  to take the strain, right? Of anything of family relationships, of romantic relationships,
• 50:18
  friendship is the first thing to give. And that's like that fragility that I'm referring to. And also
• 50:23
  as versus them, like either my friend or you're not, it's such a black and white thing. It's so black
• 50:29
  and white, like I'm going to have your back or I won't. Oh, interesting. And I think we're living
• 50:36
  in a world that's like seeing the results of that. I love what you say about parasocial online
• 50:42
  communities. I will sing this from the rooftops online relationships and online parasocial
• 50:47
  relationships made me a 10 times better person in real life. I don't know what I would have done
• 50:53
  without the safety to not know what the hell I'm doing on the internet. Literally, you go on the
• 50:58
  internet and you find everybody else who doesn't know what they're doing. And then you find someone
• 51:02
  who used to not know what they're doing, who can now tell us what to do. And it's like,
• 51:08
  I absolutely, I mean, here we sit because of the parasocial relationships. So I could
• 51:14
  give like my in real life relationships because the internet is really the only place you're safe
• 51:19
  to really have the issues that you have, like to just show up with the true. It's the only place
• 51:24
  you're safe. And so you find so many other people who have the exact same stuff as you,
• 51:29
  shout out to the algorithms. Yes, this one time. So these people, and I mean also, that's why I
• 51:34
  can never get on the whole like, oh, you just get on the internet, but you forget about people in
• 51:39
  real life. Like you kids, this is like, it just the internet is a whole other kind of connection
• 51:44
  that saved my life personally. So yeah, that's just what I mean by the fragility of friendship is
• 51:51
  the relationships in my life that have I've felt the most insecure in have generally been
• 51:57
  friendships. And that could just be my own life path, my life path that I'm walking. It could
• 52:01
  just be my own individual experience. In fact, I know a lot other people were the most solidly
• 52:06
  accepted. And I know this is my family. People have felt is their friendships. But I think the
• 52:12
  older I get as I have less of a friend group myself personally, I just observe that these are my
• 52:21
  people. Those aren't my people. I think there's just limitations to that. It's so interesting.
• 52:28
  It's such an interesting point of view on friendship. And I love the words of fragility or friendship
• 52:31
  that would be an amazing piece to write. But this thing between we are, we aren't like these
• 52:36
  fineries. What do you think happens? Like what is the consequence of that approach to friendship?
• 52:41
  Or when you say you felt the most insecure about friendship, can you tell us more about what you
• 52:45
  mean by that? That's so fascinating. I've never heard that point of view before and I would love to
• 52:49
  learn more. I just think the friendships are the relationships like when I compare family and
• 52:54
  romantic. So let's talk about friendships and romantic relationships. This is a good comparison
• 52:57
  point. So if I was to compare the two, right? And we all know, right? Friendship more solid,
• 53:03
  you know, the foundational points here about friendship and romantic relationships. But I think
• 53:08
  one thing I've struggled with is you can ask your partner to reassure you. You can ask your partner
• 53:16
  like, what are we? You can express certain boundaries with your partner or bear certain emotions
• 53:24
  and states. Like I said, maybe this is just my personal experience. I just have not felt that
• 53:30
  friendship often has that kind of intimacy space. It is rigidity. It's like what you said about
• 53:37
  being fragile. Like it feels a bit fragile in the face of those kinds of things. Yes, yes,
• 53:45
  so I agree. And that links connects to what I said earlier about the inconveniencing thing where
• 53:50
  I feel like I know. And it's an approach like I know that I can inconvenience a romantic partner.
• 53:56
  It's not always clear that there's room for my feelings for me to be my bleeding heart self
• 54:01
  in a friendship. So when now we were best friends, but now we haven't spoken in three years,
• 54:06
  how did that happen? Like, where did that go? I'm too sensitive for friendship.
• 54:12
  Oh, yes, yes, it's so true. Oh, my gosh, it's so true. Like, why is then it's not normalized
• 54:19
  to have needs in a friendship and that makes them brittle? Yes. And I think what makes you,
• 54:24
  one of the things that is like more and more we say about friendship is it has a lot of give,
• 54:28
  like a lot of give. Like you just said, partner, all these things job. So I was out with friends
• 54:36
  the other day. And one of our friends is going off to travel for like two months. So another friend
• 54:42
  is expressing her just deep sorrow and grief. And I'm like, why? And she's like,
• 54:47
  she's going for so long. And I'm like, what's up? And she's like, yeah, but she's not going to be
• 54:53
  here. And I'm going to miss her. I have to check myself. Like, yeah, I do have to check yourself.
• 54:58
  Yeah, that's very real. If someone was saying that about their partner, I'd be like,
• 55:03
  dude, how are you going to survive? That's a long time. This is our mate, our friend. And one
• 55:09
  person is being honest and saying, this is going to be really difficult for me for this person to
• 55:13
  be gone. And I just had a moment where I thought about that. And I was like, to be a good friend in
• 55:18
  the setting is to only have excitement for that person. But damn, dude, I'm going to miss you like
• 55:25
  how you're going to be off having fun. You're not going to be relying to my takes. I'm going to be
• 55:29
  feeling like a burden. And this is like, what am I going to do without you? But like, a good friend
• 55:34
  in that moment is just really excited for you to travel. So I don't know, I think friendship is
• 55:38
  interesting in those ways. That's so true. That's so true. And there's so many expectations around
• 55:44
  how you're supposed to react to certain things that I think are like what you just said, you should
• 55:48
  only be excited. Actually, that's such a deep form of love. Of course, you're happy for them,
• 55:53
  but you're also sad, like the bittersweetness of losing someone who's distance-wise,
• 55:57
  to someone who's so important to you. I think it's so important and I really agree with you. And
• 56:02
  it's difficult to transition a friendship from a place that's more this lighthearted thing where
• 56:07
  we only feel the good things to like, oh, I actually have expectations and needs and you have
• 56:11
  expectations and needs and we're not communicating about them and then we're disappointing each other.
• 56:15
  I think for most of my closest friendships, I've been able to transition each of those.
• 56:21
  Actually, you know what happened. One of the person I hadn't been close to in a really long time,
• 56:25
  he started posting on TikTok and we became friends through that like a few months ago. And he's
• 56:30
  just such a present and amazing friend. Like, he's so present. He's highly, highly, highly engaged.
• 56:36
  And I realized that because also of our culture of like, oh, if he wants busy, they'll text when
• 56:41
  they can. I had forgotten the joy of like a friend who's truly there. Like, they want to hear about
• 56:47
  the random part of your day, that type of friendship where it's like exactly as you would expect of a
• 56:52
  partner that they are deeply interested and invested in you and you are deeply interested in them.
• 56:57
  It's a safe space to explore certain emotions and to have needs and requests and conflict.
• 57:02
  That is a whole different friendship and also it just ricochets because then you start to think
• 57:06
  about, okay, how can I approach my other friendships like this? So it's so funny that you use the
• 57:10
  word fragile because I literally recently met a guy and I was saying to him that I want to build
• 57:15
  something that is like robust and I was thinking that actually a lot of romantic relationships are
• 57:19
  very fragile in the sense that they can crash and burn and then you never speak to each other again.
• 57:23
  So it's just interesting that maybe it's not even within friendship or romance, but the goal is to
• 57:29
  build these really sturdy connections to people which needs conflict like conflict reinforces
• 57:33
  things. It makes it like much less fragile like it's always going to be fragile if you never
• 57:38
  engage in conflict with someone because the first conflict you have, it's like, whoa, you know,
• 57:42
  we're taught to kind of notice anomalies, notice differences or abnormalities. And so then you're
• 57:47
  just like, why are you doing this? Like why are you so dramatic or you're too clingy or all these
• 57:52
  things? And then it's the whole fear of the screenshots and all this stuff. And I'm like, I can't
• 57:55
  be relating to people in that way. That's just not where I'm at in my life. I had this moment when I
• 58:00
  sent this text to someone like recently and I had the fear that they would like screenshot it. I was
• 58:04
  like, I mean, there's just no integrity that then if I even fear that, then that says so much.
• 58:09
  But even then that's quite a black and white way to view it. Like maybe I should just ask like,
• 58:13
  hey, can you not screenshot this? But no, that's so true. I love this notion of fragility. Like,
• 58:18
  wow, and it's so true. I want friendships. My friend Alex, the person I just was speaking about,
• 58:23
  he speaks about how friends are life partners. And that's now my approach to friendship. Like I want
• 58:28
  friends. If we say, oh, I want to have children, we would do it together. Like that's the type of
• 58:33
  friendship that I want. We are friends. We are in it. We have boundaries, but we're bringing
• 58:38
  all of us to this friendship. And we can give each other space, but we will communicate
• 58:42
  needs. Like when things change, it's really hard to recognize when a friend you thought was that
• 58:47
  is not, or maybe that's, I keep thinking of your binary thing. Maybe I'm wrong. It's not an either
• 58:52
  or I don't know. I mean, I'm feeling so self conscious as we're having this conversation,
• 58:57
  because I think it's my first time ever expressing a lot of my ideas about friendship that I've
• 59:02
  never really expressed to anyone else. And that really go against what I see other people experiencing,
• 59:08
  which is why I'm so open to experiencing these other things exist. I mean, I think you also
• 59:13
  experience relationships. I mean, I'm going to say this with a pinch of like new age individualistic
• 59:20
  pinch of salt, but I was going to say, you experience your world and your relationships at the
• 59:25
  level that you're vibrating. And I say that about myself, because as I sit here and I say to you,
• 59:31
  friendship is fragile, friendship is difficult, friendship is all those things. These people out
• 59:36
  there, like what you're talking about, like life partners, who that's how they experience
• 59:40
  friendship. And I've had a lot of my friends come into my life. And I think the importance of
• 59:44
  talking about how the people who come into your life change once you develop like a solid good
• 59:50
  relationship with yourself. Yo, yes, definitely. Like just the most incredible people have come into
• 59:56
  my life. And I'm so grateful for that because gosh, more chances for love. And the most
• 1:00:02
  solid and credible people have come into my life. But one thing I've noticed is that there are
• 1:00:05
  people who are challenging some of my ideas about the intimacy of friendship and things like that,
• 1:00:10
  right? Like I would say, like, right, like if your partner's going away for two months, it's
• 1:00:14
  perfectly normal for you to want to just like lay in bed with them and hold them and cry and be like,
• 1:00:20
  I'll miss you so much. And they are friendships where people do that. And for me, it's been like,
• 1:00:26
  okay, what is it in me that has not experienced friendship like that? That's been resistant to
• 1:00:31
  people like that. Or that hasn't had space for people like that in my life, such that I generally
• 1:00:36
  experienced. I don't know. So I think on a systemic level, I do think friendship is fragile in these
• 1:00:41
  ways. And I do think that our personal relationships are under attack. Like in the society we are living
• 1:00:47
  in, our personal relationships are actively under attack. So I don't think I'm imagining that
• 1:00:52
  friendship is very fragile that I experienced it as more fragile than ever. But at the same time,
• 1:00:58
  I constantly challenge myself to also remember that there's friends out there who will cuddle you
• 1:01:04
  and be super intimate with you in all those ways that you thought were only in romantic relationships.
• 1:01:12
  Yes, that's so true. There's so many false hoods around like, oh, you don't touch a friend in
• 1:01:16
  this way. And it's like, wait, why exactly? And then also, yes, if you obviously feel your own
• 1:01:21
  discomfort to it, that's used to your boundaries yourself, like, yes, thinking about some of those
• 1:01:25
  questions and how so much of our society is constructed on limiting desire and so limiting intimacy
• 1:01:33
  and connection. And so like channeling our minds to think that we should only receive physical
• 1:01:38
  touch from this one person who's also very difficult to find in our culture in general. Instead of,
• 1:01:44
  oh, well, if I have skin and I have eyes and all of these things that are meant to feel things,
• 1:01:50
  then it would actually be a healthier society if people were relating in intimate ways across
• 1:01:55
  different kinds of relationships. Like, that's a healthier, more robust world if you don't have to,
• 1:02:00
  because I mean, human affection literally like, like increases your life expectancy. It's not just
• 1:02:04
  that it feels good in the moment. It literally, you feel at how so many both emotional,
• 1:02:09
  psychological and physical effects are in your sense of self and calm. And so if we're limiting that
• 1:02:14
  romantic love, it is interesting. But I have a friend that I met in the past two years and she's
• 1:02:18
  very affectionate. And I love it. Like, I didn't even know that was a possibility. And I'm like,
• 1:02:23
  oh, my word, this feels so good. Like when someone holds you, rubs you, I'm like, oh, my gosh,
• 1:02:28
  I am a child of this earth. And I just want to be consoled at all times. And I just want to be treated
• 1:02:33
  like a precious being. And this is so wonderful. So it does feel really good. And I'm sure those
• 1:02:38
  people will also continue to come into your life. And I love, love, love what you said about you
• 1:02:42
  attract people based on the vibration that you're on. I think that's so powerful. Yeah, I think I've
• 1:02:47
  had two of my friends who came into my life in the last year or two as well who literally just
• 1:02:52
  cuddle me for no reason. And just like you, I just love it. And then I realized like, if I love
• 1:03:00
  this so much, why haven't I been doing this? Like why don't I just like hold my friends for no reason.
• 1:03:07
  So yeah, that's been a lovely challenge to me. Oh, I'm walking around being like, oh,
• 1:03:11
  friendship, you can't get this. You can't get that. But oh, look, there's my friend who wants to
• 1:03:14
  cuddle me. So what else am I assuming? That's wrong. Right. I want to be mindful of your time.
• 1:03:21
  I have rapid fire like fill in the gap. But one of my last questions was you say something so
• 1:03:25
  interesting that I haven't heard phrased in this way that I would love to just get your thoughts
• 1:03:29
  on. You said our personal relationships under attack. Can you explain more what you mean by that?
• 1:03:34
  It's like we're living in a world where everything is a consumer product and our relationships
• 1:03:40
  included. And for me, it's just so tangible. I mean, I was 18 when Facebook came out. So I have
• 1:03:48
  just like a very strong reference point of what it was like to go out to a party and meet someone
• 1:03:54
  before and after social media made our relationships consumer goods. I think that's what social media
• 1:04:00
  did. It made our relationships consumer goods and like capitalist means. And so what comes with that
• 1:04:07
  is scarcity. That's like a fundamental underlying of the system we live in is like a scarcity mindset
• 1:04:14
  so that people will keep paying for things, right? People don't think they can meet a partner. And
• 1:04:18
  listen, I'm not saying that's this I'm not here to demonize the upside. But I'm yet to demonize
• 1:04:23
  the app developers. So I just do I believe our relationships are under attack. I mean, just this
• 1:04:30
  if they don't know how to love you right, find someone who else who will like I think that's
• 1:04:35
  like a profit driven my dear like this constant search. Yeah, it's like optimization. Yeah,
• 1:04:40
  optimize the people around you exactly. And I think our relationships are ruined by everything
• 1:04:48
  like class, you know, what do you have? What do I have? What person do I deserve at the level that
• 1:04:56
  I'm at? And once again, I mean, these things have so many different iterations, right? Because like
• 1:05:01
  on a personal level, there is just some shit I won't step down for. But in general, our relationships,
• 1:05:08
  I don't know, I just think our relationships are under attack. Like I think and you see it in
• 1:05:11
  everything, how the humanities like as a discipline are just disrespected, underpaid and everything,
• 1:05:20
  you just see in general that like humanness and all those things are being optimized into
• 1:05:27
  Teflon or like the best versions, everything is being optimized into the sleekest possible version.
• 1:05:34
  And human relation, I don't think human relation coexist with that. And so I know we talk a lot
• 1:05:40
  about and this is a whole other topic, but there's just so many people that society leaves on
• 1:05:45
  the margins, right? When you talk about it, beauty politics, ableism, there's so many people
• 1:05:51
  that society leaves on the margins. And I think what we're seeing now is that the people who
• 1:05:58
  were still on the in, I think the system has normalized itself to the point where no one is okay.
• 1:06:06
  Oh wow. No one's okay. I think everybody's very lonely. And you can cut the side,
• 1:06:11
  it's such a throwaway statement. It really is a throwaway statement, but I just think everybody's
• 1:06:16
  genuinely very lonely. And that's because the tie between profit and our relationships has
• 1:06:23
  just become so like, it's just too much. Yeah. Unless we create space for deep, ugly connection,
• 1:06:30
  as in like, this is me. And unless we allow each other this space for that, like really try to
• 1:06:35
  queer the expectations that people have of friendship in any moment, like you are an artist
• 1:06:40
  whoever you're listening to, like you have so much agency to relate to people on an offline in
• 1:06:45
  new ways, in life of filming ways. Again, if you're not meant to be needy in a friendship,
• 1:06:50
  this can be a space where you can practice being needy, practice not being a people pleaser,
• 1:06:54
  like I'm really working on this. So I'm not coming from a place of like, I have this figured out,
• 1:06:58
  I'm figuring it out. And I think that energy has led us to meeting each other exactly like you
• 1:07:03
  said, like we are vibrating and we found each other. And I'm so grateful to have had you. I loved,
• 1:07:08
  loved, loved this conversation. Just I hope to have you again. But I mean, all of you, you have
• 1:07:13
  amazing, amazing energy and ideas. And I just feel a kinship with you. And I hope that we will
• 1:07:17
  continue to deepen our connection and friendship. Do you have any closing thoughts, ideas, anything
• 1:07:23
  you want to leave people with? We're just so grateful to have been able to get to know you a
• 1:07:27
  little bit. I did just have a thought like often when I listen to people talk about relationships,
• 1:07:32
  well, as I've gone through my struggles in my life, when I've had times in my life, when I've
• 1:07:35
  been very lonely and I've had some serious relationship struggles. And you often hear people
• 1:07:40
  talking about relationships and friendship. And it often comes from this place of assumption
• 1:07:45
  that people have friends. That's always the starting point. And I think there's been times in my
• 1:07:50
  life that hasn't even really been the starting point. And so it makes these conversations even more
• 1:07:56
  difficult to connect to. And I think for me, a big turning point was even if it's just you on
• 1:08:05
  your own, I know people just say this and I had to experience it by myself, but you really
• 1:08:11
  genuinely can start with yourself. And as I start to think about like a partner, well, not start to
• 1:08:21
  because I've been, but as I'm getting back into dating after taking a bit of a break,
• 1:08:26
  something I've been saying to myself is like, what would I want my partner to do in this moment?
• 1:08:30
  So when I wake up in the morning and I'm lazy to meditate and stretch into all the things,
• 1:08:34
  like I want my partner to be like, it's okay, get up. I'll let you incense for you. I got you,
• 1:08:39
  you can do this kind of thing. So I do that for myself. And so if anyone is really wondering from
• 1:08:46
  like a starting place of I don't even have people to have healthy conflict with, or I can't afford
• 1:08:52
  to like speak up and say something when I'd work or whatever, whatever, because I don't have
• 1:08:56
  friends. I don't have anyone. I think in that moment, like such a powerful thing is to say to
• 1:09:01
  yourself, why would I want my friend to do for me in this moment? If I'm here getting bullied,
• 1:09:05
  would I want my friend to just say something that just be like such a beautiful thread that leads
• 1:09:11
  you into friendship with yourself? It's like, who would I want to show up for me in this moment?
• 1:09:14
  And why would I want them to say and do? Wow, that is so powerful. Thank you so much for doing that.
• 1:09:20
  That is so true. And it also just represented my own. I think that's going to help so many people
• 1:09:25
  because it's so erased. Like that so many people do not have friends. And I think I've also,
• 1:09:30
  you've shifted like my approach to this in future conversations, just being much more mindful of
• 1:09:34
  the fact that it's not that everyone is experimenting with all these friends they have or even one
• 1:09:38
  friend they have, a lot of people are completely alone and don't have friends where they can feel
• 1:09:43
  the sense of comfort with or any sort of relationship with. So thank you, thank you, thank you for
• 1:09:47
  that. That's so true and important to bear in mind. And also it's just like I love reframing and
• 1:09:52
  rethinking things. So I'm so grateful when someone also helps me, you've reframed so many things in
• 1:09:56
  my mind. I think that's really great. And the other thing I wanted to say on what you just said,
• 1:10:00
  and I think it ties perfectly to your inner family system where it's like you don't have to just
• 1:10:05
  accept your system as stable. You can incubate, you can introduce, you can bring someone home,
• 1:10:11
  you're dating, you can have a partner for me. It's like an inner child thing where that's what really
• 1:10:15
  is what helps me reframe like how I want to treat myself. But find that relational figure that
• 1:10:20
  you can invent in your life that can be brought into your own inner family system and can actually
• 1:10:26
  help do that work that you're seeking in others like that comforting and that consoling and that
• 1:10:30
  cheering on and support and reminding you to be kind to yourself. Because I feel like that's
• 1:10:34
  such a valuable insight. And I love what you said and the examples you gave about being your own
• 1:10:39
  partner and like what would you want your partner to do? That's so beautiful. Yes. And it makes it
• 1:10:43
  just tangible. It's not like this out there thing. Like I know exactly what I would want my partner
• 1:10:47
  to do right now. It would be like, okay, take a break, breathe, go outside, like sit with the trees
• 1:10:52
  that makes you happy. Take care of yourself. Be kind to yourself and so on. So thank you, thank you,
• 1:10:57
  thank you for that. I love, love, love that. I was writing down this list earlier today where I was
• 1:11:03
  like, okay, what if I died literally today? What would I regret? And it's such a like cliche thing
• 1:11:08
  or go and live your life with no regrets. But I was like, no, no, let me meditate and go there.
• 1:11:12
  And I wrote this whole list of things. And then one of them was I feel like sometimes so many things
• 1:11:17
  are right under your nose, but you are so busy looking out for the crowd. And I just feel like
• 1:11:22
  within this space, I really want to help foster and tend to the soil of building a community,
• 1:11:28
  something that actually feels like, wow, like this person made a friend because of our community.
• 1:11:33
  And so I don't if you have any thoughts on online communities that work and like why and how they
• 1:11:39
  can work like what makes an online community work for you. That's such an interesting question.
• 1:11:44
  I think like honestly, the people I get along with based on the internet are like people who
• 1:11:50
  have the same problems as me that I can't talk to anyone else about like childhood trauma and
• 1:11:55
  stuff like that and anxieties. And when I was in the depths of my breakup, that was a big one,
• 1:12:02
  just like other people going through breakups. So there's another creator that I've also spoken.
• 1:12:06
  They're not constanations. She's not a counselor, but she basically does talk sessions with anybody
• 1:12:12
  who wants to book time with her. And I just thought that was so flipping cool because that's so
• 1:12:18
  full of potential because for me, and I started writing an article about this, about when I was on
• 1:12:23
  Instagram, that was when I was like very much at the height of being in therapy. On Instagram,
• 1:12:28
  like I follow a lot of therapists and get a lot of information there. But as I've now gotten onto
• 1:12:33
  TikTok, which is less information and more community, it's interesting that that's reflected
• 1:12:38
  also me getting out of therapy because now I'm talking to an in conversation with people who've
• 1:12:45
  gone through the same things as me rather than like an expert, like a therapist. So I don't know,
• 1:12:52
  I just think that's so full of so much potential because I think therapy is very expensive.
• 1:12:56
  I think the requirement, like it's a very like what's the word like and it's like takes a lot
• 1:13:01
  for you to become a therapist, but the word is escaping me. But I just think there's like a
• 1:13:05
  bit of rigidity to psychotherapy and the rules and all of that. And listen, we'll see. Maybe it's
• 1:13:09
  not that safe for people to just take appointments and talk to each other on off of social media. But
• 1:13:14
  I don't know, I think that's really exciting that they're certain people. Yeah, who just are
• 1:13:20
  like now opening up their time and just talking to other people who they feel like they can relate to.
• 1:13:25
  And I like that idea of taking it like that as well because I feel like when I did that,
• 1:13:31
  it's so moving for everyone like that Sunday when I spoke to six people. And it was so amazing.
• 1:13:36
  I was so inspired by everyone I met and it's such a powerful thing. And as you speak about this,
• 1:13:40
  I'm thinking it could work so well because what could happen is the person as they talk to people
• 1:13:45
  could also then nominate people to be like another person someone could talk to. I feel like anyone
• 1:13:50
  for example who enjoys talking to me would enjoy talking to you. So then you can have this family
• 1:13:54
  treat like this family of people because also time is limited where like everyone is aligned
• 1:14:00
  supporting each other. I like what you say where it's like not as rigid as therapy, but maybe if
• 1:14:04
  there's someone has a conversation with one person and they realize, oh, they need more focused
• 1:14:09
  attention by someone who's like experienced this kind of thing, immigration or childhood
• 1:14:14
  trauma in a specific way. And then the person says, oh, actually, I have someone for that. And it's
• 1:14:18
  more of a flowing, it's not therapy, but it's a form of therapy because there's many different forms
• 1:14:22
  of therapy. But I think that's really, really cool. Like I really want to do that more after I did
• 1:14:27
  that I was like, no, this is amazing. This is excellent. People are wonderful. And then I also just
• 1:14:31
  want to vibe. There's so much content that it's so nice to have people tell you which content to pay
• 1:14:36
  attention to. And so I just think that within our community, there could be a lot of book recommendations
• 1:14:41
  and podcast recommendations. And oh, this is what I'm watching on TV when I'm sad. And this makes me
• 1:14:46
  happy. This is really interesting. And I learned a lot. Like I just think there's this, I don't know,
• 1:14:51
  that's what I'm kind of craving is like this space. I love TikTok. And I will continue there. But
• 1:14:55
  this really loving space where it's just about helping each other, keeping each other entertained
• 1:15:02
  people jumping on the court with each other, like making friends, that type of thing. Like how
• 1:15:06
  lovely would that be? I think we all really desperately need that. I think we all do. And that
• 1:15:11
  was the thought I had to myself. Like you think your loneliness is unique. And it's not. Otherwise,
• 1:15:16
  TikTok, TikTok would not like as much as you love TikTok. Yeah. Why? Because it's there for you
• 1:15:23
  in your lonely moments. It's like there's a whole lot of other people too. So I just love that
• 1:15:29
  idea. And so in like a perfect example is this, I could have been in therapy for the longest time
• 1:15:34
  talking about like my perfectionism. I need to get over my perfectionism. I just need to do that.
• 1:15:38
  I had one conversation with you and you were like, there's no secret. You just start posting
• 1:15:43
  TikToks and you're still scared when you're posting the TikToks. And then you, I mean, I was like,
• 1:15:48
  okay, there's someone who's done it. She says she's also felt the same fears. Well, then
• 1:15:53
  I think I also do. So my therapist might have been like, let's unpack that. But someone
• 1:16:00
  who's got the TikTok trajectory that I would love to have looks me in the eye and says,
• 1:16:06
  there's nothing special. I just post even when I'm scared. And when people say mean comments,
• 1:16:11
  I don't read them. And that's it. And it's like, he won't check that off the list of things I
• 1:16:16
  need to get over. Move on to the next thing. You know, then I started posting TikToks. And here we
• 1:16:20
  are. You know what I'm saying? Amazing. Yeah. Thanks. So like, oh my gosh. Yay. What's your handle?
• 1:16:27
  We'll follow. Oh gosh. Okay. Okay. No pressure. No boundaries. No worries. Oh, please.
• 1:16:33
  For me, it's just, I think my freedom on TikTok so far has been. Nobody knows me. Yeah,
• 1:16:40
  it's been so fun. But my handle is A and G thing. A dots and G like my last name thing. Okay,
• 1:16:48
  perfect. I will put in the show notes. Everybody. That's amazing. Well, what you just said also
• 1:16:53
  reminds me. I love that because in the beginning, when you said that the podcast is killing you
• 1:16:58
  softly with his like, literally, I listened to your podcast and I was like, this is excellent,
• 1:17:03
  amazing, brilliant, sensational. Like, wow, like, this is so, so good. And I'm also pleased to hear
• 1:17:08
  that you suffer. I don't want you to suffer. It's like, oh, the way out is in. This is the obstacle
• 1:17:14
  is the way is the saying. This is the nature of the thing. It's not the secret because we just
• 1:17:18
  thought dreaming about art, art is difficult. It's difficult. Yeah. Every episode, it's happening.
• 1:17:26
  It's horror. Exactly. Yeah. Wow. Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much for being here. Wait.
• 1:17:33
  Also, what is your star sign? Do you know your big three or even your sign? I do. I'm a tourist
• 1:17:38
  son. I'm a cancer moon and I'm a leo rising. Oh, my gosh. Wonderful. What is yours? So I am a cancer
• 1:17:46
  son, sage moon and a capricorn rising. That's a nice combo. Love that for you. I have no idea. I
• 1:17:53
  would love to talk about this more because I'm trying to deepen it because I really like it's been
• 1:17:57
  so helpful. What I have learned, but I definitely need actually like study it. We can talk about it
• 1:18:02
  anytime. I'm even study. Yay. Okay. Amazing. Thank you so much for being here with us.
• 1:18:07
  Thank you. Thank you. Bye.
• 1:18:14
  That's it, Sunshine. Thank you so much for listening to reimagining with I understood a podcast
• 1:18:20
  where we reframe, rethink and reimagine all things standing in the way of love and liberation.
• 1:18:27
  Please follow my work on substack at I understood dot substack.com and subscribe if you have the
• 1:18:32
  means as well as on TikTok and Instagram at I understood. I would absolutely love to hear from
• 1:18:37
  you. If you have good things to say, I am a cancer. Please be nice to me. I am sensitive. Okay.
• 1:18:42
  Follow our podcast community. The IG handle is reimagining with I understood. Please leave a rating
• 1:18:48
  on the podcast if it is five stars again. I'm a cancer. Okay. I love you. Have a wonderful day.
• 1:18:53
  Narrow yourself and nourish each other.